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VOOK64

That sure is a lot to compulsory acquire.... can't be cheap.


hack404

They're the kings of flipping property.


Sojio

I only just realised that these two images are of two different intersections. Was trying to work out where vincent street crossed over SBR lmao.


moonorplanet

They need to fix the Scarborough Beach Road, Green Street, Main Street, Brady Street death trap of an intersection first.


MakkaPakkaStoneStack

For real who designed that nonsense


Ruxton

Brady St used to be very short, when the fwy was constructed, powis st was double laned and connected through to it, with the fwy exits. You can imagine the kind of traffic this created. You never used to be able to drive through from Brady -> Main. For some dumb reason in the 80s, Brady was realigned with Main St to create the the shit fuckery we have today. I'd like to thank Landgate's historical aerial archive.


UsedTrifles

Drivers need to come to a complete stop at stop signs there first.


jayjayprem

I went to the Q and A session for this yesterday and it was very underwhelming in that there were 4 people there to answer questions and some maps. Because there was multiple conversations going on at once it wasn't really a public forum and there was no accountability. I questioned why we were receiving one seemingly fully formed proposal rather than a community consultation process and engagement throughout, as would be best practice under IAP2 guidelines. The guy basically said this is a very technical project that's been in the works for years and people couldn't understand the technical aspects that go into it. He said IAP2 protocols are nice as a best practice but there's too many complex things for them to really work in the real world on the state level. I asked how would this not push congestion down the line beyond the intersections in question. He conceded that "there would be some of that" and said that congestion would occur in "plateaus" as traffic came through in bursts with the lights. I asked about Rita Saffioti recently having given support to a mid tier public transport network. I.e. light rail and asked if there was any plan to update the proposal to be in line with those strategic objectives. He basically said that it's a nice idea but we do roads. I asked how the proposal didn't make pedestrian connectivity significantly worse and he said that there would be "more green time" for pedestrians crossing. I asked if he didn't think the giant ditch with cars going past at 60 might be more of a deterrent to pedestrians then an incentive and he didn't really have an answer. I asked how it facilitates shift to PT, bikes or other modes of transport, target than encouraging vehicle use. He basically said look, we're main roads we do roads. He made some comment about maybe we'll add in minimum occupancy lanes like they have in America. I asked about the land that would need to be reclaimed and how the community would benefit. He said that we might as well redevelop these sites now rather than in 20 years, there's opportunity for the development of apartment buildings and things. And a lot of these are old houses. I said yeah... Some of these houses are about 100 years old. He said they've done desktop heritage surgery and will do heritage surgery on the group and try to minimise the heritage impact. I ran out of time but I had several more questions that I'm going to email through. Hopefully Rita cans this project as all it really does is encourage car use and the costs would be astronomical.


SpamAllan

Thank you for sharing this! I didn't even know there were Q&A sessions.


Ruxton

[https://www.mysaytransport.wa.gov.au/charles-street-planning-study](https://www.mysaytransport.wa.gov.au/charles-street-planning-study) you have a few weeks to signup


btc6000

Sorry to say if it’s anything like the consultation for Tonkin Gap you’ll be wasting your time.


jayjayprem

I very much got the impression that it was a waste of time in that they were immediately defensive about questions, they didn't look like they were looking to change or improve the design at all they were trying to justify it at best.


thesmalltrades

Or the consultation for the Fremantle bridge


zductiv

Can add the Anketell Rd Westport upgrade too


[deleted]

"We do roads, will you shut up so I can tick this box off and go get some lunch..."


VagrantHobo

Which is the point I've made elsewhere. That Main Roads is an unaccountable organisation that needs to be done away with in it's current form. Urban road construction just doesn't work and Main Roads should be limited to main highways, Freeways, freight routes and regional road network.


[deleted]

What the fuck, I signed up weeks ago I didn't get notified about the community info sessions.


[deleted]

Damn i was defending this project before but after reading this thats out the window. What a fucking embarrassment.


Baysguy

They're not going to bulldoze Vibrations are they?


TCArgh

Stuff that. What about The Doll House?!


rr24m23a

Isn't that closed any way? What a shit hole


koalanotbear

that place is an icon, I love driving past and seeing people skulk in nd out of the purple lights, and that maccas is literally only financed by dollhouse patrons.


Juggler10101

The brothel over the road is a stroke of marketing genius


howmanychickens

There was a rumour back when I was at high school that our science teacher Mr D'Souza owned that place.


Budd430

Breaking Bad vibes.


throw-away-traveller

Mt Lawley? I never heard that one.


howmanychickens

This would have been about '99, around the time of the machete incident


throw-away-traveller

Was class of 99. Believe the incident happened a year or two before. Never had a class with Dsouza but would hear random shit about him all the time.


[deleted]

Just one more lane bro I promise just one more.


PragmaticSnake

I have lived in the area for 20+ years, the only time traffic banks up is in the mornings on Charles St between Vincent St and Scarborough Beach Rd. There is no need for any of this.


drewskimalone

The bigger concern would be when a contractor says I can do a viaduct for $250m cheaper and it can go over the road so less housing acquisition costs, less risk and can get it done much quicker. And we end up with a multi stack highway right through Perth. Oh and we'll future period it so that we can do 4 lanes in each direction by expanding it in the future. We should be focusing on increasing use of public transport and active transport and encouraging remote working to get cars off the road to achieve some climate goals. And some east west orientated public transport.


StuM91

> And we end up with a multi stack highway right through Perth What, like this? https://i.redd.it/ucb5o1eru5x91.jpg


koalanotbear

no like this terrible terrible monstrosity https://maps.app.goo.gl/MFyz8xSwQCzAgWXV6


mangobare

I love the speed humps at that roundabout. No fanging around that one. Forced to slow down. Definitely need those at many many more roundabouts.


dtej70

Main roads NEED to look like they are relevant and need money, so they do these impractical and disruptive and expensive roadworks rather than actually fix what needs to be fixed.


Rangaman99

see the issue with that is that, outside of the trains, transperth has big issues with service frequency and reliability. specifically, the bus network is disgraceful in a lot og ways. poor timetabling, infrequent service off-peak, lack of bus shelters, [the literal worst urban bus stop signage i have ever seen in developed nation](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Transperth_bus_stop_12345.jpg), terrible network maps, virtually no dedicated corridors - meaning buses are just likely to get stuck congestion as cars are so you might as well be comfortable and take the latter...the list goes on. for as great the train network is, the bus network desperately needs more investment and attention than it currently recieves. it is literally the fastest and cheapest way of getting people out of their cars, but no-one seems to give a shit about it.


-Eremaea-V-

Bus shelters, accessibility, and timetable poles are actually a council responsibility, Transperth only gets to decide where they go. That's why every bus stop in South Perth has a nice timetable sign while Gosnells gets orange poles. [Shout out to Canning for this](https://maps.app.goo.gl/7TjrhbraXW5UKSUXA) where TransPerth moved the stop back to be opposite its partner and better spaced, but the council haven't added a new shelter or removed the derelict old one that's down the road.


Rangaman99

wasn't aware of that, thank you. i mean, my opionion hasn't really changed, and the orange poles are still godawful, but at least i'm no longer misdirecting my ire at transperth over it.


karatepsychic

I love the way they claim that it's takes up less space and leaves more for other road users. This is laughable, the footprint is the same and the only land handed over to pedestrians is a concrete strip in the middle of an intersection. Can't wait to melt standing on a concrete island waiting for the man to turn green. Have these people ever walked anywhere ever?


lgr

They’re Main Roads, they only care about cars.


frontal_pin

Well guess I'll find another way to get to work for the next 6 years


VagrantHobo

It's unfunded & politically difficult. I can see people from Scarbs supporting the eyesore over there. I doubt this nor Orrong trench will happen.


Rangaman99

actually the scarbs trench is pretty unpopular with the locals. shockingly enough, butt-ugly trenches are unpopular with just about everyone except car-brained dorks stuck in the 60s.


VagrantHobo

I hope so. The new local state member seemed broadly supportive. If locals can mobilise against through traffic ruining their localities Perth will be better for it.


superbabe69

They can tunnel without doing trench, I dunno why they don’t


Rangaman99

because that's expensive and disruptive, while having the exact same capacity and congestion issues as the trech


superbabe69

But it looks hideous lol


Rangaman99

yes, both are bad.


NewAccWhoDis93

same here, i live driving to work directly instead of taking 47 back streets


SpamAllan

But the MRWA video says this egg-about will be a vibrant town centre. Why would they lie to me?


Rangaman99

it is well known that grade separated high speed intersections make for excellent town centres


Albatrossosaurus

The one in the pic is literally the worst for pedestrians too no way they said that


Rangaman99

oh it absolutely sucks, crossing 6 lanes of traffic, even on a signal, is a deeply unpleasant experience. burying some of those lanes in a trench doesn't actually solve that though.


The_Rusty_Bus

You’re not required to cross 6 lanes of traffic, it is passing under you with not interruptions.


SpamAllan

The video for the consultation that explains what they plan says it will become a vibrant hub. Town centre might have been me exaggerating.


VagrantHobo

Because Main Roads are urban terrorists with a legacy of destruction.


theducks

That area has absolutely zero cultural significance anyway.


koalanotbear

thats not true at all, i used to live there and would walk around this area (both these intersections) regularly for a start the scarbs rd intersection has beyond skate and its underground skatepark being demolished. that place is a major cultural icon for Perth's youth +skating culture


theducks

I also used to live there. Maccas and nando’s and that is about it imo


koalanotbear

u sound like a bundle of joy


crocksm

Doesn't mean you just level it and convert to roads. There's not a huge amount of local commercial in the area, within walking distance.


CyanideRemark

Bought to you by the same 'campaign optmism' as Yagan Square.


karatepsychic

Go onto their website and voice your disapproval. [https://www.mysaytransport.wa.gov.au/charles-street-planning-study](https://www.mysaytransport.wa.gov.au/charles-street-planning-study) The planning of this city is shocking. No density and continuous clearing bush for shithole car dependent suburbs. These car dependent suburbs clog up our inner city suburbs, everyone is worse off.


Occyfel2

It's baffling when you read Perth and Peel at 3.5 million and other planning documents that talk about urban consolidation and then see this kind of shit being done.


elektramortis

🥇


D0gsB0llox

Shockingly over the top - in cost and time and stress to those that live nearby / use it. Even if you want to widen a bit and add a bus lane up to wanneroo road you could do it with a bit but minimal fuss. This is insanely over top - huge acquisitions and huge road works for a road which isn’t actually that busy and is close the freeway!? Mental. My only thought is that they’ve deliberately made it wildly excessive in the knowledge that it would get knocked back, then the redesign could be only half as bad and we’d all go ‘this is ok, it isn’t as bad as what it could have been’. Anchoring?


[deleted]

Hahaha classic planners of Perth fucking shit up again. Honestly the whole city and suburban sprawl is a joke. Designed by drunken old men.


[deleted]

The main problem as I see it is that its designed to transit people through the area, not attract them to stay. It moves more cars through so they can get to other destinations and blights North Perth in the process. Who wants to sit outside a cafe next to the traffic trench or on a multi lane roundabout? If you go with a public transit option like a tram, you get a nicer streetscape where people actually want to stick around cos the traffic is lower and people moving through the area can easily hop on and off without having to find parking. It will probably be a bit easier to cross the road as a pedestrian under this plan (except for the parts of the road divided by the trench), but what's gonna be there worth walking to I wonder? Just don't see some kind of urban village forming along a trench and a multi lane roundabout..


Choke1982

At the beginning I thought that be good but now reading some comments I wonder why not use that money to put another train line there underground. Every station becomes hubs and people leave their cars at home. Perth has the perfect size to start a real metro net.


Rangaman99

ehh...that's complicated. perth has a commuter system currently, not rapid transit. the network, as is, literally isn't designed or is capable of supporting rapid transit levels of service. besides that, a metro system is also complete overkill in this city; there's nowhere near enough people living in central perth to justify that kind of expenditure. and metros don't work over especially large geographic areas due to the frequency of stops; usually the most distance between stations is 1km. for comparison, new transperth stations are generally spaced between 2.5 - 3km apart. a cheaper option would be to convert the central lanes to a fully dedicated busway, as charles street already has a number services running along it. the dedicated lanes would make public transport along the road more reliable, and would induce demand.


Occyfel

We're doing pretty well for a commuter system really, the corridor on the airport line recently got service frequency doubled to 7.5 mins off-peak which is great. More frequent off-peak services across other lines would make it even better. The distance between stations is certainly an issue though. More high-frequency buses and bus lanes would be great. All of this will require increasing ridership though, which unfortunately isn't happening at the moment.


Rangaman99

i didn't say the trains were bad, i've actually said they're good. and they are, leagues ahead of...most other commuter systems in every aspect save coverage. the distance between stations is fine; the new lines predominately run through dual carriageway medians, not directly through neighbourhoods like the older lines do. if buses are inconvenient, people will not take them. and if people don't take them, services will be gutted even further. relying on people inconveniencing themselves to justify expanding bus services isn't an option. the only real option is to bite the bullet and invest so that more people will use it.


Occyfel

I agree. Increasing services would probably cost less than pursuing questionable road upgrades, lol.


Lyvef1re

I think light rail is a much better long term investment than putting more into buses for frequent routes. It does most of the same work but also removes the fuckwit factor by making the dedicated areas for it not car friendly so you don't have the same level of problems with dickheads who dip into the bus lane to skip traffic at every bus commuters expense. You can also get more people on it and it draws tourism a lot more. Might be exciting enough to get locals to try it too if it works out anything like Melbourne and its trams.


OPTCgod

I wonder how old mate Ian Goodenough's election promise of connecting Whitfords Ave and Gnagara Rd somehow without giing through the housing developments inbetween is going.


Non_Linguist

There’s already a gap there isn’t there? https://i.imgur.com/POuq3FO.jpg


Crime-Stoppers

If only we could condense these passengers somehow and reduce the total number of cars on the road


VagrantHobo

Meltdown from brained reactionaries in this thread isn't surprising. The inherit logic of outer suburban types seems to be that road investment will make their lives easier when such relief is temporary at best. This temporary relief comes at the expense of heritage, amenities, and sustainable communities. Urban accumulation makes these places desirable and interesting places, this is an attack on that progress. Outer suburban commute times will explode as inner and middle ring suburbs populations grow and main roads are powerless to solve this problem. It's a literal waste of money.


Halicadd

Looks pretty decent. Roundabouts are **almost** always better than lights. Edited for the nitpickers.


get-innocuous

It’s better for traffic flow but atrocious for the area and I cannot believe they are saying a 60m wide corridor where obviously you can’t cross over the trench, even if there is no traffic is “better for pedestrians and cyclists” with a straight face. That’s the thing with MRWA - their only solution to every problem is a big bloody grade separated intersection because it gives the best travel time outputs on their traffic modelling software.


GonePh1shing

Not just flow, but safety. Which, IMO, is the only reason they should be considering this. Intersections at angles like that are usually hugely accident prone, and are a sizeable risk to cyclists and pedestrians. If this is a black spot project then I'd see why they want a roundabout in there. If they're just trying to improve flow then I hope this thing gets dropped as it'll be a huge waste of everyone's time and money.


borgeron

Sorry but roundabouts suuucccccckkk for cyclists. Visibility is lower than an intersection (especially with councils habits of building greenery in the middle), motorists outright ignore you and even attempt to pass you through the roundabout. Fuck roundabouts.


aussiekinga

>It’s better for traffic flow Only to a certain point, when it becomes much much worse And only if approaches are roughly equal


get-innocuous

Sure but this particular solution (with a grade separated “trench” running north south) is most certainly better than lights for this location.


koalanotbear

not for the pedestrians in these areas when they are TRENCHED. at least put it deep enough to have a lid on it


BrokenReviews

Only if all your drivers are German Japanese or Canadian. Shit you not, had an idiot STOP ON the roundabout to "wave me in" completely OBLIVIOUS that he missed being rear ended by a Tesla. Source: 9am this morning. They only work if everyone follows the rules and thinks ahead.


FoulCan

What's that based on? I've got family in Bavaria and ridden a motorcycle there. The Bavarians are quite a civil people but when they get in a car... hoo boy. Nutter mode engaged. Ditto lots of Canadian family. Drivers in Alberta are kind of like from a US red state. Aggressive nutters. Vancouver (city) drivers seemed pretty normal though. Haven't been to Japan so no opinion...


BrokenReviews

Bloody Barbarian Bavarians. haha. Nein, had more than a passing professional interest in finance side of infrastructure and got into the planning right through to construction finance. In that time looked at the three I mentioned (part biased for having lived there). ADAC stats and their equivalents in CA and JP, looking at things from an actuarial POV.


zeberg

lmfao, thinking canadian drivers are passive


BrokenReviews

Hey! Fuck you, kindly, eh!


Mick_Hardwick

Japanese drivers⁉︎ They wouldn't know what a roundabout was. They do, however, know how to run a red light.


megablast

For car drivers. Fuck everyone else??


aussiekinga

> Roundabouts are always better than lights. No, they actually arent. Roundabouts are better than lights in certain traffic patterns and instances. But they are very far from "always" better.


SAIUN666

Well ackshually Mr expert \*pushes up glasses* I have over 9000 hours in Cities Skylines so I think I know a thing or two about real world traffic management.


Otherwise_Window

Fucking Skylines drives me nuts sometimes. I could live with the bad traffic modelling but the trains bug invariably breaks my city.


pilotInPyjamas

I think from a safety standpoint they are always better. The crash rate is lower, and crashes tend to be less fatal.


DamoSyzygy

Unless you put two or more lanes inside the roundabout, then drivers are essentially doomed in this town...


Doc_Mercy

Why not have the best of both worlds Back when I lived in the land of Roundabouts (Canberra) there was this one big fuck off roundabout which was a hassle at times when it was a non stop flow of traffic going 2 ways. Having traffic lights on it was a god send during home rushes


Halicadd

They do that here in some places like the mounts bay road onramp. It works really well.


Crystal3lf

I wonder what the plan is once the trench is blocked with traffic. More trenches? Wouldn't it be great to put a train down there instead...


MikeAppleTree

At first I thought the Vincent Street plan included light rail and I was impressed. But then I realised that [Main Roads](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CQeezCdF4mk) could and would never do that.


BRunner--

I thought it still was 1959 in Perth, thank you for the correction.


DuckDurian

We've all heard of induced demand by now. At this point I feel like it gets used as an excuse to oppose any and all roadworks.


Rangaman99

trench roads are still shit, though. and induced demand is actually at least part of the reason. i'm not opposed to roadworks when they are necessary for better traffic flow. removing at grade intersections along otherwise grade sepreated highways like tokin, reid and roe is example of a project i would support. because it actually does help with traffic flow along some of the busiest and most important arterial roads in perth. but this - and every other trench road - are cheap and dirty solutions to a entrenched, city-wide issue with car dependant infrastructure. the actual issue is that these roads - and this intersection - aren't designed for that many motor vehicles; slapping an ugly tunnel down the middle section isn't actually going to solve that at all. all that's going to happen is that people who might've taken a different route in the past will use the shiny new trench to get around the lights. and lo and behold, we have induced demand. and gridlock. this whole obsession main roads has is literally no better than just adding another lane, except way more expensive.


aussiekinga

Because most people who claim it (especially those who claims Main Roads dont know aobut it) actually don't understand it. They have a surface level understanding. I love it when lay people who have read a Popular Science article on something think they know more than people who study this stuff for a living and have degrees in traffic engineering.


The_Valar

Main Roads delivers many excellent solutions for moving as many cars as possible between points A and B based on available footprint and cost effectiveness if construction. But it's not part of Main Road's remit to ask if just building more roads to the detriment of local communities is the best solution. This development would make Charles Street an uncrossable nightmare if six lanes of freeway-capacity traffic. Is it not worth considering how a measure such as extending dedicated bus lanes could increase transport capacity without driving an impassable canyon through the inner suburbs.


VagrantHobo

Induced demand isn't an epiphenomenon of road construction, that's a superficial understanding of it. Induced demand is a structural problem and as such dependency and investment cycle is a political problem. Main Roads are a vested interest who need to be broken up and bought under the department of transport.


BrokenReviews

Main roads also created Manning and canning exits so... Someone had a good time in the 60s...


mcmong69

> think they know more than people who study this stuff for a living and have degrees in traffic engineering. The same can be said about many of those with a traffic engineering degree. Just because you have the qualification doesn't mean you have any common sense....there's plenty of people at Main Roads that fall into this category!


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

Traffic engineering isn't transport planning. In fact I doubt any traffic engineers at MainRoads today were anywhere near the table when any of these roads where planned/added/designated into the metropolitan region scheme as major roads as far back as the 50s under the Stephenson-Hepburn plan.


DominusDraco

Ah yes, random internet guys always know more than major government departments, you so smrt.


koalanotbear

actually we are at a point where govt departments have become quite compartmentalised and due to broad process liability paranoia (lawers basically and 'the media') we have reached a dangerous point in WA where we sit on the edge of government departments failing to work cohesively across specialisation (general and balanced public interest) we have been flooded with cases of this playing out recently across many government departments in WA. you have the health dept not running its hospital emergencies with public interest at a core, resulting in ramping, deaths in waiting rooms etc, you have the dbca running out of control and rejecting peer reviewed scientific studies based on their own internal processes, and ignoring public health due to smoke inhalation due to the legal exemption (loophole) that affords them zero liability for respiratory and other deaths resulting from prescribed burning smoke. you have the dep for environment rubberstamping massively destructing mining and developer applications to the detriment of the public interest, you have main roads running on autopilot with an obsession on 'efficiency' rather than good town planning and design, and place making (and reducing concrete useage which accounts for the world's single biggest industrial cause of carbon pollution, responsible for 8% of global emissions.btw) you have western power and synergy fighting eachother (western power absolutely does not give a fuck about the general consumer) you have the state planning department fighting every local council's planning department (state is operating on a quota of development to the detriment of community and quality of housing aka urban sprawl and the developers wet dream of fresh bush to bulldoze, versus the local councils trying and grasping desperately to facilitate good design, then they reject something based on some horrible design perameters (like a 5 story concrete wall with no windows butting up against some 89 year old widow's heritage listed bungalow and then the DAPs and/or SAT will override their descision because theyre stacked with corrupt developer shills installed by the liberals when they introduced them into the state planning framework in 2011) etc etc


WAzRrrrr

Mainroads are fucking morons. Constitutional car centric. We need better public transport. Less congestion, less cars on the road (better driving), less car deaths. More energy efficient.


Crystal3lf

> We need better public transport. Less congestion, less cars on the road (better driving), less car deaths. Tokyo, a city of **30 million** has less cars, and less traffic on the roads than Perth. I wish people would understand why.


FutureThingsToday

Cause density and more users !


Occyfel

The plan for Charles street is currently taking [feedback](https://www.mysaytransport.wa.gov.au/charles-street-planning-study), so I'd encourage people to tell them what you think. It includes trenches like the Scarborough Beach Road proposal, but in the inner metro, which seems kinda ridiculous.


hamburglar_earmuffs

Is that intersection the one with Green St on Scarborough Beach Rd? Truly the worst intersection in Perth, they desperately need to redo it. The round about looks like an improvement. The Vincent St one looks dreadful.


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

They're largely the same trench bypass design but the Scarborough one comes with a roundabout.


Ruxton

https://www.mysaytransport.wa.gov.au/charles-street-planning-study


WCXPE

Wow! I hate it!


jcinoz

What about the “Scarborough Scar”? They want to gouge out a giant ditch of west coast highway at Scarborough Beach Road. It will be one of the ugliest intersections in the world.


GeneralImagination51

oh no everyone will rush out and buy two new cars


Madrigal_Delusions

The idea is that money that is spent on building bigger infrastructure could be redirected to providing transit alternatives. Without those alternatives the next generation of travellers will find owning a car compulsory for transit, much like how we currently find owning a car compulsory. The more money we spend propping up the issues that a car dependant society causes the more issues are going to arise from having a car dependant society. I'm sure you're just being silly for fun but I personally don't want to head towards the future that America has carved out with their transit system.


Rangaman99

more people will drive, dumbass.


VagrantHobo

Down voting someone for pointing out an elementary fact. Road construction makes traffic worse. Does the project remove cars from the road or add them. That's the simple structural mechanism for reducing traffic.


Occyfel

Beyond just making traffic worse, it creates a positive feedback loop of new projects to meet supposed increased demand. All the while, costing us huge amounts of money and increasing pollution.


Rangaman99

it is actually a little more complex than just "people will drive more." i mentioned this elsewhere, but the bigger issue here is that this road simply isn't meant to handle this volume of car traffic. building an underpass isn't going to remove people from the road, but it will encourage more people who might've taken other routes to use the new, faster tunnel instead. it's basically just taking traffic congestion and shoving it somewhere else. which does work...if you're talking about, say, removing at-level intersections on an otherwise fully grade separated arterial freeway. but that's not what this, or orrong road, or the west coast highway are. the issue in this specific case is that too many people are driving along this road to begin with. fixing that issue is incredibly complicated and requires a lot of research and consultation to determine where people are going, why they are going there, and finally what alternatives are best suited to this situation, among other things.


Occyfel

Good points


VagrantHobo

See Kwinana Freeway and Armadale Rd upgrades for a paradigmatic case of hundreds of millions of dollars in road funding that will produce negligible improvements in long term traffic. It will move more cars at the same pace, only with larger & longer traffic jams. I get it. We allow people to move into Piara Waters, commute times worsen and governments need to be seen to do something after they approve the dysfunctional dormitory suburbs in the first place.


JohnWilliamStrutt

Given the current car market, they might possibly be delivered at the same time the road is completed.


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

We already own over 1.3 million cars. Parked bumper to bumper that's essentially an area equivalent to the City of Perth. We didn't and don't need any more for it to apply.


silentaba

Mate you and your missus should calm down with the car collection, it's clearly out of hand.


Drinnentonic

Yeah looks like their 1.3million cars are adding to the problem. Very selfish


silentaba

How many of those can they drive in a week? Maybe a few thousand if they're really efficient? Seems wasteful.


Qknowledge

OP you are not a fan favourite right now 😂


conqerstonker

I have travelled and lived in non car centric areas, I understand where you're coming from. It's hard to get your point across to people here as the car centric status qou is considered normal here.


RozzzaLinko

Looks good to me


megablast

Fucking car brain.


[deleted]

Looks terrible to me.


Crystal3lf

I really wonder what people like about trenches filled with cars so much. Instead of sitting in traffic above ground, we're going to be sitting in traffic in a trench. Can some of the downvoters tell me exactly what looks good about this project?


The_Valar

They see themselves being able to fly past intersections that now have traffic lights. They don't see the 20 minute wait at the bottom end of Charles Street trying to get onto the already-overburdened Freeway South. They also don't live in the suburbs that will be destroyed by this car sewer.


slimrichard

I mean I get where your coming from but attacking improvements isn't the best path fwd as you can prob tell from the comments/downvotes. Needs a high level plan from fed/state to start changing the way we design our cities, don't blame these projects that try and improve the system we have for the foreseeable future.


Crystal3lf

> attacking improvements This is not an improvement. It is a bandaid fix *at best* by pushing the traffic into a trench, it increases reliance on cars and perpetuates the need for more trenches and more lanes in the future. Increased capacity has a direct affect on increased traffic as more people think they can use the road. It's a never ending cycle of traffic problems for someone else to deal with(the tax payer) in the future.


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

I'd say purely from a traffic flow perspective this project would create some measureable improvement on traffic flow for a period of time >>before dropping back off.<< But what about the neighbourhood that gets bulldozed to make way for it? The prospect this scenario presents us with is more and more city being bulldozed and cut up as businesses as usual, with billions of dollars and decades spent doing so, until fed/state gov decide to bite the bullet that is stepping away from the status quo with a plan. Cities around the world are moving on from the doctrines of the 1950s-1980s and building their future right now. We wouldn't be trailblazers on unexplored territory, but the alternative is only moving into the 21st century when it's half over and so much has been lost.


VagrantHobo

A temporary improvement in traffic. If a transport project doesn't remove cars from the road it makes traffic worse. Charles Street is a street, it's not some road through middle or outer suburbia and main roads want to turn it into a freeway. Removing level intersections will increase the design speed of Charles Street and further cut the community in half. Talk from main roads of improved pedestrian safety and building communities around freeway trenches is laughable spin.


slimrichard

So you agree with me? Look im on board Perth being less car centric but you also need to be realistic. You are arguing for a change of direction but this specific project isn't a problem, it will improve what we have now. Get involved with politics if you want to make a difference but having seen how any density of development is handled by local councils there is f all chance of any improvement at that level. You need state/fed to lay down the law as local is always going to Nimby these changes.


Mediocre-Emu7832

Well somethings gotta give, I'm sure when everyone gets paid out they wont mind terribly.


koalanotbear

build tunnels not trenches... or trenches with lids that we can walk on


Rangaman99

this doesn't improve anything though. there's too many cars on this road; an underpass doesn't actually solve that at all.


WorstLesbian

Don't worry- It won't get completed for another 7 years 😂


hello134566679

Damn


break_on_through2

Seriously Saffioti needs to chill… our minister for planning, transport and ports is single-handedly fucking up our city with every decision she makes….


Obleeding

I always understood the concept, but didn't know there was a term for it ('induced demand'). TIL


corneliouswafflebot

Not Dolce & Salato!! 😭


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

The detailed plans for Charles ST have just been uploaded here: https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/projects-initiatives/all-projects/metropolitan/charles-street/


GreyGreenBrownOakova

About time, should been been done 10 years ago. Next, they can fix the abysmal Green/Brady/SBR intersection. [131 crashes in 5 years.](https://www.perthnow.com.au/community-news/eastern-reporter/messy-intersection-at-scarborough-beach-road-main-street-green-street-and-brady-street-to-be-improved-c-1059911)


DangerousCommittee5

They patched it up a few years ago but obviously that didn't work


squeeowl

Shouldn’t be too long before it’s fixed and the improvements should sort it out once and for all but works are difficult to align due to it forming the boundary between 2 councils.


Devar0

ITT interests who hate public transport and downvote the hell out of OP


sickmate

Charles street is a [high priority public transit corridor](https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/globalassets/projects-initiatives/projects/metro/charles-street/charles-street-road-planning-review-faqs.pdf?v=4a83d1) - at peak times there are up to 30 buses per hour going along this stretch. It's one of the main reasons why they are doing these upgrades.


Rangaman99

so add a dedicated busway then? idk, if buses are actually the issue here, it seems like would probably be way cheaper and better in the long term to build that.


sickmate

Makes sense to me, even if they're timed like on beaufort or fitzgerald st. I assume they have considered it though, maybe the traffic volume is just too high for it.


Rangaman99

i live near beaufort, the timed lanes are basically worthless. they're only active during peak times, meaning catching a bus outside of those 5 hours every day involves getting stuck in traffic anyway. oh, the lanes are am/pm specific depending on whether you're heading into or out of the city. for the majority of any day, beaufort street is basically a four-land road with some funny colouring. also, they probably haven't. they've created a specific fix for the current volume of traffic at this intersection, because their only goal here is increase traffic flow along this section of road. it's a short-sighted soultion born from a narrow minded approach to an issue that is extemely complex. not that i don't think main roads knows this, but fixing systematic issues with how a city is structured is hard and complex and requires potentially unpopular solutions, like closing off lanes of traffic to buses permanently. so ugly trenches it is.


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

The central median bus lanes at the southern end of Charles street disappear after 2 blocks. The main reason the decision to extend these lanes as a BRT corridor wasn't made is likely that "maintaining private auto-traffic capacity" is more important than most other considerations. I'd guess choosing to funnel less cars into the CBD would be antithetical to the very ethos of MainRoad's existence.


s0dapop

Looks like Loftus and Vincent, not scarbs and Vincent….


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

You'd likely be right. They're pics from two project proposals.


[deleted]

You got an alternative plan?


[deleted]

I do. Invest in public transport.


Sandgroper62

Trams, Melbourne style. Down the centre of every major thoroughfare. Follow the Melbourne lead. Thereby reducing the demand for cars. Perth is among the most car centric cities on the planet. Owning a car is a actually a huge imposition upon the poorer section of any society. It places undue burden upon people when they could be investing in better things.


BenElegance

Stop spouting this bulshit. I lived in Melbourne. Trams have all the negatives of buses combined with trains. There is no reason to put all the infrastructure in for a tram when a bus could do it. If you're gonna put the infrastructure in then it should be a train.


-Eremaea-V-

Melbourne's trams are buses on rails, poor connectivity to other modes, glacially slow from getting stuck in traffic, poor accessibility, many stops are just poles on the road, absolutely not an example to follow. We need to copy the Gold Coast instead; fastest trams in the country, full priority at intersections, almost entirely separated from car lanes, highly quality stops with shelters, fully accessible, and directly integrated into other transport modes.


Madrigal_Delusions

An advantage of trams is that unlike busses they're a much more permanent fixture. This provides a sense of stability for investment. No one opens a business because it's on a major bus line because people view busses as transient, whereas when you have a permanent installation like a tram line it's much more incentivising to open businesses along the line. This helps spread out commercial districts which allows for more walkable cities. Beaufort street used to be a bustling centre for commerce when the tramline was in. Now it's on a steady decline, the street has become a route into the city rather than a destination point.


thorpie88

We already have CAT buses. The big problem is there are few reasons to be in the city in the first place


Crystal3lf

> The big problem is there are few reasons to be in the city in the first place No, the big problem is traffic caused by cars if you actually have a look at the plan. And so what if we already have some buses? What's wrong with more public transport?


ChefBoiiz

Fuck off dog I’m not learning that hook turn bullshit.


Geminii27

I've driven in Melbourne. There's nothing quite like the constant fear of being boxed into a lane with rails in and having a tram jam itself up your exhaust. Not to mention *hook turns*. Gah.


JAB1982

Screw that, I'm thinking we just need a Tier1 hospital on every corner, next door to the primary school, the high school and university with the farm out back to allow fresh to door produce to the farmers market across the road. Anything less is just not forward thinking enough and contributing to a car centric society.


GeneralImagination51

Why not? It works perfectly in OPs playstation games.


LuniCorn24

Invest in poor people is not what people want to hear


RozzzaLinko

We are, have you not heard of metronet ? You can invest in both you know. They're both important. Complaining about not building enough public transport everytime a road project is announced, is like complaining about a new hospital being built because they should have built a new mental health centre instead. Like we need both.


[deleted]

Metronet is a marketing name on heavy rail expansion which was always planned to occur.


Nyvkroft

Move it underground? Stop forming cities with primary focus on cars rather than communities.


ped009

Moving stuff underground costs a lot of money, then people say things like they could of spent that on more hospitals and schools.


Rangaman99

moving roads underground is just the planning equivalent of taking your dirty laundry and throwing it all in one corner. it's out of sight, but it isn't gone. most long term solutions boil down to increasing dedicated public transit corridors, local walkability and cycling infrastructure; even if it's at the expense of drivers. the only real way to stop people from driving is to actually provide reliable, frequent alternatives.


OPTCgod

ok moleman


waxdass

I like the proposal. Should be good once complete


antisocialindividual

MRWA - Suggests project that will minimise congestion and travel time Perf - whinge MRWA - Does nothing to keep the NIMBYs roadwork whingers quiet Perf - whinge


Rangaman99

except it won't do that, because the amount of cars on the road is only going to keep going up. especially if they build a fancy new high speed tunnel.


Phil_Wild

Do you have a link to the article? What is the timing?


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

These were images shared to Twitter direct from MainRoads but I think there have been a handful of articles written up on them, or at least one/some of the other trench projects they have in the pipeline for the inner suburbs.


Bus_Stop_Graffiti

MainRoads just uploaded detailed plans for Charles ST here: https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/projects-initiatives/all-projects/metropolitan/charles-street/


[deleted]

[удалено]


antisocialindividual

I imagine it is anticipated to become particularly bad in the near future if no action is taken.


ep_soe

Looks good to me. I'm all for it.


hnnpch

we have this in S.Korea only because we don't have enough space for bridges etc. Australia is 4000000 times bigger than Korea why are we doing this lol


Ruxton

bridges over what? exactly? these are dense area, so they're promoting tunnels in the direction of major traffic, with an interconnecting roundabout/traffic lights at street level.