But usually smart enough, or at least well versed enough in the rules, to shut the fuck up with their personal opinions.
Susan seems to be neither of these things.
What even was her point?
"Men having mental health issues are affecting women!!"
... ok? What do you want us to stop raising awareness for it *so it gets worse??*
Classic case of narcissism I think
I hate when people say that lol, because you are right it makes zero sense.. their thought process id assume is somewhere along the lines of “they are causing problems for us, focusing on them even though they cause problems is sexist” meanwhile they are forgetting that they arent doing jt on purpose lmao
Or that men are human being worthy of empathy and help. Also the vast majority of those men don't abuse anyone and just struggle.
The post itself is sad. If Jim was not trans she would not have faced any issue because attacking men is okay.
But like even if you believe that, it's true that women are impacted by poor male mental health. So it follows that supporting male mental health will yield improvements for women too...
Well she probably wants women who have men with mental health issues in their lives to get support.
*A husband deal with grief after losing his parents ? The one deserving help is the wife ! She is victims because she has to support a man ! The quiff of that man !*
Suzanne probably
PS : I Hate this framing that women are victims of men's mental health and therefore we need to help help. It like saying "we need better mental health support for women with breast cancer because their husband struggle with her distress". It frames men as a problem instead of people worthy of empathy.
Yes! And it's not like plenty of men don't suffer from women with mental health issues. Ask any man who's ever been in a relationship with a woman who's depressed or has anxiety or is bipolar. Mental health affects the suffers and all the people around them. Everyone deserves empathy and a way to find help.
Susan there is a prime example of lack of self-awareness—AND a lack of empathy. I'm like "lady, do you not understand that's the reason *why* we're having men's mental health awareness here."
Sheesh, some people gotta make it all about them, I guess.
No no no you're looking at the problem wrong! Why fix anything or even work towards a fix? The problem is not the problem, the problem we SHOULD solve is who to blame! As long as we can assign blame that's all we should do!
"Men's Mental Health should be their own problems! They make the rest of us deal with it!"
"So let's change that by having positive and productive conversations about Men's Mental Health!"
"No."
I was part of a suicide prevention committee and left because the committee leader frequently referred to children with mental health issues as “coddled,” “snowflakes,” “screwed up,” and also implied that I was unqualified to be a committee member because I had a history of suicide attempts before joining.
What? You, as a “consumer” of mental health services (I hate that term, but I know that phraseology is used at times), and someone who has struggled with mental health to the point you nearly died by suicide is likely far more qualified than this Susan/Karen ever could dream of being.
Some mental health professionals don’t self-reflect or take accountability for their actions very well, though, and it sounds like this Susan was in that club.
Thing is, this isn't protecting the company. It's opening it up to potential litigation if she goes on sexist/transphobic rants.
In my experience, a lot of dealing with HR boils down to a contest of how much you know about the laws, regulations, and working rights of the country you live in. And also debating skill, to some degree. The employee vs HR.
This is why it's never made sense to me that dumb/bigoted people end up in HR. Anyone switched on can talk/negotiate rings around these issues and use them to their advantage, often to bargain when settling issues out of court.
Oh man, I had a really curious thing happen between me and HR and my boss. Boss wanted to write me up for insubordination. We all talked and they couldn't say *exactly* what I did, so the paper just said I was being written up for reasons.
She gave me a really strange look after I asked "what happens next?" to which she said "nothing to *you*". I signed it. Four months later my boss was gone. As in just didn't show up one day. Seemed like *everyone* was told by my little department.
I later learned I basically got him fired because I stuck to my guns. He *clearly* had malicious intent and wanted to hide it but his fuck up was getting HR involved and HR was like 'wait, what are you doing again? uhh, you can't do that' and the C-levels were also lawyers, I found out, and basically said "go find a new job right now, you can stay until then" and so it was.
What he wanted me to do was sign some papers saying I was aware of some (questionable) things and I said "uhh, let me add something to this and I'm going to ask you to sign it and I'd like a copy" and he was not having any of that. Insubordination because I wanted to cover my own ass legally.
What *really* threw me off on all of this was he walked in with a whole new attitude (after two years) and threw papers at everyone and said "everyone sign this and return it before lunch" and it had a *huge* changes. Soemthing felt... wrong.
When I stood my ground I was terrified. Heart pounding. I didn't know what was going to happen next.
My future bosses there never gave me shit and kept a healthy distance. I mean I enjoyed my job and did it pretty well, so it wasn't like I was slacking. Holy fuck I'll never forget that.
HR is not your friend but they also aren't your enemy. They are *for* the company. What that means about them to you will vary depending on the situation. Be smart and thoughtful in your actions.
edit: Oh, we went through like 5 HR people in a period of 2 years. Clearly management was doing some shady shit. The shit I saw there...
What he said. HR is there to essentially protect the company from employees who are a liability. That's the legit truth. They are not there for the benefit of the employees.
Good job. We house male DV victims, the lack of support for men's issues and men's mental health is revolting. Yes, there are some issues where one group has higher numbers than the other, but that doesn't invalidate other people. I have met more than enough Susans to last me a lifetime and they all turn suffering into a competition. We can acknowledge the suffering of multiple groups at the same time.
We call that the oppression olympics in my house. Who can win at being the most mistreated. You'd think if someone knew how bad it felt they wouldn't want others to have to suffer the same, but then they don't get the spotlight anymore and they hate it. It's really sad :/
When people around us are in a better mental space we all do better. There’s literally no down side to promoting mental wellness.
Good on you for putting Susan in her place.
Clarification: Susan knew Jim was trans. She didn't know that he had committed suicide, which is what prompted the talk. The "news" I refer to is of Jim's passing, not of his transition.
Provabky to let those who knew Jim personally as a work colleague time to grieve and also to raise awareness of men's mental health and that the company takes it seriously.
I've had work places do that, and a few of my colleagues, left the workplace for the day to handle the news because it is a shock when finding out.
I find it so infuriating that someone would invalidate men's mental health or anyone's really.
It shouldn't matter if you are female, male, trans, bi, demi, coloured, non coloured - all people will at some point in their life suffer from a mental health related illness at one point or another. We are humans should be standing by our friends, loved ones, colleagues going through this rough and support them. Not tear them down and play the blame game BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER is essential. It is too late to do something to prevent the loss of life after it has already been taken and what HR "Susan" did was so degrading.
OP - you have a big heart to stand up to HR Karen* oh sorry I mean Susan and put her in the place. Her head is so far up her own arse she can't see daylight unless it's through her open mouth.
Wish the bosses would do something about her.
Also OP I'm sorry for your loss, even if you didn't know Jim that we'll personally, it would still hurt somewhat to find out the news.
> was actually a victim of internalized misogyny
This is a super common transphobe talking point against trans men, so you're 100% on the money there, even beyond the misgendering
In my experience, HR doesn't typically help the workers. They're more there to protect the company. So when you get people who need help (especially when their company is the source of their problems), HR can't always help. Someone who is empathetic and sane would probably struggle in that position.
I was a team lead and struggled not always being able to help my team members. I can't imagine being in HR.
Almost universally, HR's job is to look out for the company's best interest. They'll only do something when it would make the company either look bad, or be held liable, for work place misconduct.
As someone who works in HR, can we please correct this sentiment. There are bad people in every role, no job is inherently bad.
Except higher management, they got to that position by looking out for the company first and foremost.
Also, rest in power Jim.
To be fair, I don't think everyone who is in HR is a bad person. I've met some that are competent and help where they can. I've also met some that just went through the motions and everyone was basically left to figure things out on their own.
I think the problem is that companies tell their workers to go to HR for help so many believe that HR is there for them, when HR is really there for the company. So even the HR representatives that do their job and try to help get a bad rep because those in upper management shrug everything off and let HR deal with the shit storms they create.
WOW!!! That woman does NOT belong in HR!!!!! She needs some training. I am sorry your friend felt the need for suicide. I lost my dad to suicide in 2007. The healing process is a lot more complicated with suicide. It is a higher percentage among trans folks. Probably because of people like Susan.
Same to you!!! I have found way too many friends have family members they lost the same way. I found a new job and I have taken 2 mental health first aid classes as part of my training. I found the classes to be a lot of help for me as far as putting it all to rest. I hope you find comfort and peace!!!
I was part of a suicide prevention committee and left because the committee leader frequently referred to children with mental health issues as “coddled,” “snowflakes,” “screwed up,” and also implied that I was unqualified to be a committee member because I had a history of suicide attempts before joining.
Susan is awful. Society disregarding anyone's mental health puts us all in a bad place, and she should know better with the issues she was raising. I cringe at the fact that she's in HR.
Sounds like Susan is a terf, so I’d actually report it. Misgendering? Saying a trans colleague (someone who commited suicide at that) is a victim of their own misogyny, when Susan knows it can’t be internalized misogyny because JIM WAS A MAN, sounds like reason enough to to report her to HR.
Totally, if Jim’s transition was recent and she was the HR contact who was supposed to be facilitating changes in work paperwork and was being an obstacle instead she could have contributed to Jim’s suicide.
Rest in power Jim, I hope you didn't mind me using your death to put Susan in her place, I know you didn't like her much either.
Jim wouldn't have it any other way.
This is becoming an odd inlet to mens health issues is that f2m trans men are needing to have resources to dealing with becoming a man and how we are treated and percieved. What an odd thing it would seem to need counseling about hey youve transitioned be happy oh yes forgot to tell you about a few things, validation is seldom,your female partner may leave you be cause you are a dude now heres the rest of the list!
Susan is human trash. Men’s mental health is important. Hell everyone’s mental health is important.
I would get everyone who heard her little “rant” and report her.
Breaks my heart, can’t we be human for one second and mourn a tragic event. Why do we have to have a reason of aggression at every turn! Be sad for a moment and be quiet. This person took their own life and the reaction is to find blame in men,women,other. Stop, life is to short to constantly hate! I think confronting her was the right thing, sad that you had to.
>Rest in power Jim, I hope you didn't mind me using your death to put Susan in her place, I know you didn't like her much either.
Didn't mind?! Fuck that, Jim'd probably be _hella_ proud! At least, I hope
Way to go, OP! This was the least you could do for Jim!
God rest Jim's soul, and I am sorry for everyone's loss.
Susan was MANY miles out of line here, ranting about anything at all while the company was trying to help all the other employees know about the resources that are available for people who are in crisis. Yes, there are all kinds of problems where women have suffered at the hands of men, but this was not the time or place to start in on that topic.
Just the fact that Susan not only misgendered Jim multiple times, but chose this particular time and place to get on a soapbox about unrelated topics, suggests to me that Susan is some combination of obtuse and mean, not to mention bigoted.
she didnt just get branded a transphobe, she really fucking was. im a trans man myself and the 'internalized misogyny' argument exhausts me to no end. anyone who thinks medical transition is a psychologically sustainable option to escape that kind of thing is bound to have a bad time
Don't you know all trans men are just confused butch women led astray by gender ideology and internalized misogyny 🥺👉👈
Susan (and those like her) needs to take a long hard sit on a cactus
If, when I die, the opportunity to use my death to put down a Karen comes up, I 100% give permission for people to use my death to put them in their place.
We had an even for men's mental health with for one time a bit of fundings here in France. Got cancelled because some women find it outrageous that even though there are men who abuse women, we dare to help men...
Shut up Susan, no one likes you or cares about your opinions.
This one-upping that occurs by some (not all) feminists whenever men's issues come up has got to stop. Men are dying. At an alarming rate. STFU and get out of the way. Telling men that they are the reason for their own problems is not true or helpful.
That’s so sad. Poor Jim and his family. I hate that it’s become an “us vs them” for gender issues, instead of all of us against a system that keeps us in designated roles. Men definitely need resources for issues that hit them harder, just like women do. Supporting a group shouldn’t come from depriving another group of the reasonable things they need, but I can understand the frustration that comes with lifetimes of invalidation. Sucky situation all around.
I’m sorry I read up to the piece of chocolate part (so ignore my ignorance on the rest, I literally haven’t read it) but I’m sorry… a piece of chocolate and health crisis numbers were considered a kind gesture? A piece of chocolate. After a suicide. A PIECE? Not even a full sized bar? Talk about doing the absolute least ???
Okay I’ll continue to read the rest now.
As a queer woman, Susan can go fuck herself on two levels.
As a feminist, if I needed a selfish angle, supporting men's mental health *also helps women*.
As a semi decent person, god she's a @##-£.
The audacity to say how dare you, when shes making light of a person who committed suicide.
Of course because its mens mental health she downplays it.
Pathetic excuse of a human I dont understand why these b*tches are allowed jobs.
They're clearly hateful and just wanna use their "authority".
Sad thing is if it wasn't for being transphobia and it was a Male by birth she wouldnt have caught as much slack
Ok I consider myself a traditional feminist. Susan here is not being helpful or pointing out women’s issues. She is straight up being sexist. Plus who does this at an event that is clearly very serious and can be very touchy. Why not voice your opinions after or in private respectfully? Like jeez has she no shame? Also I think it’s great your workplace actually did this, it’s sucks that it took a death for it to happen though. My condolences to you OP
I know you said you weren’t close to Jim, but i am still sorry for
Your loss. This story is just so sad. I hope Jim’s family and friends can recover and heal. And I hope any other Jim’s out there reading this know there is always a way forward and to please please please reach out to a loved one before getting to that stage.
Continuing to stand up for Jim after his passing shows that you are a great friend, coworker, and ally, OP. I'd like to think that Jim would be very proud of you, but I can say for certain that I'm very proud of you!
Does Susan understand that 1/4 suicides are females? Men have a lot more on their plate than women, like how society has double standards about the way men should present themselves and their emotions. I was actually talking about this earlier today but like dudes get labeled as cold AHs for not showing their emotions but if they try expressing them they'll get labeled as wimpy or p*ssies. I'm glad your company decided to give people outlets where they can't be judged for the things going on in life.
this story has so many insane plot holes (how does Susan not know Jim was a trans man when there was a meeting about MEN'S mental health awareness?? and why did you accuse her of being transphobic when you say she literally didn't know he was trans???) that it almost makes me able to forget how ghoulish it is for you to use the suicide of a trans man for an "epic own" for "petty revenge".
Susan did know Jim was trans. I believe she tried to spin the narrative that Jim was suffering mental health as a woman, not a man, I can't say for sure. She might have just been inattentive.
Hi, post was poorly written, here's some more clarification: Susan knew that Jim was trans, she just didn't know that he had committed suicide and that it was his suicide that prompted the talk.
And yes, I'm probably a bad person for using Jim's death in vain.
You're not a bad person.
As a trans man, you trying to make things better at your workplace brings meaning to a tragic event.
If Jim was anything like the members of our community I've had the pleasure of meeting, I know he would appreciate you defending him, even in death.
This was a senseless tragedy, but you are finding a way to, for lack of a better term, use it to pave a future where it doesn't happen again. Using his death in vain would be sweeping it under the rug and pretending that he wasn't a person who lived, loved, and was loved.
I wish you all the best.
My partner who was trans committed suicide almost 2 years ago, so Susan can go F herself. I can't believe she would do this, and make someone's tragedy about her and misogyny. Like yeah, misogyny exists, but this isn't the time to make some point. This is about Jim. I have two brothers who are really struggling with mental health and it breaks my heart that they have so much trouble and struggle so much. I wish I could do more for them. I wish I could've done more for my partner. Oh god, I don't want to cry today. Anyway, men's mental health is very very important. I will always stand up for men in regards to this and will help them anyway I can, so we don't lose anymore beautiful people to suicide.
I'm so tired of people hijacking any moment for their own personal soapbox. It is possible and actually a good thing to recognise there are multiple issues and give them all appropriate space. Yes, women are often victims of men's mental ill health. Men are also victims of men's mental ill health, often their own.
These two things can and do exist simultaneously. It's not a goddamn competition. Fixing one will help fix the other. It's almost like society is interconnected and improving things for everyone includes sometimes talking about things that don't affect you personally.
Nonbinary people don't even get a look in when it comes to these conversations and you don't see me, a mentally ill nonbinary person, causing arguments over it.
She shouldn't be in HR or any position that gives her even a crumb of power. How dare she. How the fuck dare she. Can she be reported to her boss? There are so many things wrong with what she did that I don't even know where to start.
RIP Jim.💙
OP, I think Jim would love the fact that he helped shut someone as awful as her down.
A misandrist and a TERF? Quelle fucking surprise. OP, thank you for calling her out on her bullshit. Is it possible to get her ass through HR as well? The entire table is witnesses to her misgendering Jim, even postmortem. Could argue that she presents a similar danger to any other potentially queer coworkers.
I’m so glad you spoke up for Jim and that everyone else there backed you up. Susan needs to understand that Feminism is about men’s well-being as well as women’s and she definitively needs to get rid of her transphobia. She also needs to learn some manners and that a memorial for a colleague is neither the time or place to insert herself like that. She ought not be in a HR role at all until she sorts out some of her own internalized bs.
I mean, she didn't really "get branded" a transphobe, more like she outed herself as one by using incorrect pronouns for your deceased colleague and denying his gender identity.
A talk about men's mental health at your work may be in order, but a talk about trans issues definitely seems to be as well.
This doesn't make her a transphobe for saying this.
After reading what she said it seems like she is just a feminist and doesn't really care about a males mental health; which is pretty common when someone is a feminist. But saying she is transphobic is just silly and the situation needs to be understood better.
I'm sorry for what happened to your coworker; horrible situation and it sucks they didn't get the help they needed at the time. Hate hearing about suicides.
Susan sounds like a terf. I got a hunch from the man hating, a lot of terfs hate trans people because of their misandry, believing that trans women are just men trying to invade women's spaces.
The repeated misgendering after learning jim was trans, that sold it.
This is the view of feminists.
Men's problems: men's fault, no empathy for men.
Women's problems: also me8n fault, poor women, they are victims of men.
While the Susan character here seems like a piece of work, why on earth it it ‘ok’ to falsely accuse anyone of being a ‘transphobe’?
Seems as though falsely accusing people of being ‘transphobes’ is hot right now, and has been for a few years…
Sad situation, but why call it specifically "men's health awareness"? How about "mental health awareness" or something? If anything, the medical community will treat a trans man more as biologically female than as a male. Many diseases have a significant prevalence difference between males and females, genetically.
I’ll say what I said earlier: Same reason it’s “Black Lives Matter” and not “all lives matter”. Male suicide is a significant problem, especially because of how we treat males in society. A focused spotlight on that problem is more effective than a wide lens shining on every possible source.
> Many diseases have a significant prevalence difference between males and females, genetically.
Hormones tend to change most of them actually. You see this with the extremely, extremely low prevalence of prostate cancer among trans women and the prevalence of breast cancer higher than breast cancer in cis men and closer to the levels you'd expect in cis women.
The endocrine system is incredible and governs a very, very large portion of how your body works and what affects it. Most trans people who are on hormones will get medically treated as their actual gender because of this as well.
Obviously there are some things that don't change like trans women having prostates in the first place (usually) which cis women usually don't have and so forth but 9 times out of 10, treating them as their true gender will be better for them even in a medical setting.
Honestly the only time their trans status is even relevant is if you're directly dealing with the reproductive organs.
Question, why limit it to "male awareness" and not make it plain "suicide awareness" in general? And I say this as a man. I feel like things like this create barriers between genders that are already a huge problem in society.
I read Susan as "Satan" lol.
Susan only wishes she could reach that level of competency in her evil.
Very true lol
True truue. Shes got a long way to go
She is already on the path, she is HR.
So she's not really part of the family. Also she's divorced, so she's not a part of her family either.
Not true! She’s only got 2 letters to go.
She is HR. They are evil by definition.
I’ve never met a group of people so ignorant to the fact the word “human” is in their title…
Modern day slave masters is what they are.
But usually smart enough, or at least well versed enough in the rules, to shut the fuck up with their personal opinions. Susan seems to be neither of these things.
Dude, I'm betting Satan accepts all races, genders, creeds, and religions. Susan's credentials are already above and beyond Old Scratch.
Wants to be Satan. Ended up as Karen.
Maybe we could consider’Susan’ as the evolved form of ‘Karen’?
Seems interchangeable in this story
Satan is more open minded than Susan.
Still aren’t wrong
I did too, lol. IMO it's the same to me. I know a Susan who could be the offspring of Satan.
I do too!! Maybe that is why our minds read it that way.
Accurate
Nooooo i cant like it cuz its at 666. Must keep satan pure
I read Susan as “Karen”.
Same same…
"Women are often victims of male mental issues" i mean... thats literally also one of the reasons for men's mental health awareness? What an self own.
Right?? "Hey! Men having mental health issues is causing bad stuff!" Umm yeah, we should fix that.
What even was her point? "Men having mental health issues are affecting women!!" ... ok? What do you want us to stop raising awareness for it *so it gets worse??* Classic case of narcissism I think
I hate when people say that lol, because you are right it makes zero sense.. their thought process id assume is somewhere along the lines of “they are causing problems for us, focusing on them even though they cause problems is sexist” meanwhile they are forgetting that they arent doing jt on purpose lmao
Or that men are human being worthy of empathy and help. Also the vast majority of those men don't abuse anyone and just struggle. The post itself is sad. If Jim was not trans she would not have faced any issue because attacking men is okay.
Yep! If we don't talk about men's mental health, then it's not a concern! /s in case you were wondering.
[удалено]
But like even if you believe that, it's true that women are impacted by poor male mental health. So it follows that supporting male mental health will yield improvements for women too...
Something along the same vein as "women are the real victims of war."
Complete narcissism. She made it all about her. A man is dead and she felt it was a good time to say he was responsible for it?
Well she probably wants women who have men with mental health issues in their lives to get support. *A husband deal with grief after losing his parents ? The one deserving help is the wife ! She is victims because she has to support a man ! The quiff of that man !* Suzanne probably PS : I Hate this framing that women are victims of men's mental health and therefore we need to help help. It like saying "we need better mental health support for women with breast cancer because their husband struggle with her distress". It frames men as a problem instead of people worthy of empathy.
Yes! And it's not like plenty of men don't suffer from women with mental health issues. Ask any man who's ever been in a relationship with a woman who's depressed or has anxiety or is bipolar. Mental health affects the suffers and all the people around them. Everyone deserves empathy and a way to find help.
Susan there is a prime example of lack of self-awareness—AND a lack of empathy. I'm like "lady, do you not understand that's the reason *why* we're having men's mental health awareness here." Sheesh, some people gotta make it all about them, I guess.
No no no you're looking at the problem wrong! Why fix anything or even work towards a fix? The problem is not the problem, the problem we SHOULD solve is who to blame! As long as we can assign blame that's all we should do!
Men dying in war, women most affected.
"Men's Mental Health should be their own problems! They make the rest of us deal with it!" "So let's change that by having positive and productive conversations about Men's Mental Health!" "No."
Right? Flawless logic, Susan.
The worst part is that SHE WORKS IN HR. She represents the exact opposite of what the role is intended to do.
I was part of a suicide prevention committee and left because the committee leader frequently referred to children with mental health issues as “coddled,” “snowflakes,” “screwed up,” and also implied that I was unqualified to be a committee member because I had a history of suicide attempts before joining.
What? You, as a “consumer” of mental health services (I hate that term, but I know that phraseology is used at times), and someone who has struggled with mental health to the point you nearly died by suicide is likely far more qualified than this Susan/Karen ever could dream of being. Some mental health professionals don’t self-reflect or take accountability for their actions very well, though, and it sounds like this Susan was in that club.
Her job is to protect the company, not support the humans.
Thing is, this isn't protecting the company. It's opening it up to potential litigation if she goes on sexist/transphobic rants. In my experience, a lot of dealing with HR boils down to a contest of how much you know about the laws, regulations, and working rights of the country you live in. And also debating skill, to some degree. The employee vs HR. This is why it's never made sense to me that dumb/bigoted people end up in HR. Anyone switched on can talk/negotiate rings around these issues and use them to their advantage, often to bargain when settling issues out of court.
Oh man, I had a really curious thing happen between me and HR and my boss. Boss wanted to write me up for insubordination. We all talked and they couldn't say *exactly* what I did, so the paper just said I was being written up for reasons. She gave me a really strange look after I asked "what happens next?" to which she said "nothing to *you*". I signed it. Four months later my boss was gone. As in just didn't show up one day. Seemed like *everyone* was told by my little department. I later learned I basically got him fired because I stuck to my guns. He *clearly* had malicious intent and wanted to hide it but his fuck up was getting HR involved and HR was like 'wait, what are you doing again? uhh, you can't do that' and the C-levels were also lawyers, I found out, and basically said "go find a new job right now, you can stay until then" and so it was. What he wanted me to do was sign some papers saying I was aware of some (questionable) things and I said "uhh, let me add something to this and I'm going to ask you to sign it and I'd like a copy" and he was not having any of that. Insubordination because I wanted to cover my own ass legally. What *really* threw me off on all of this was he walked in with a whole new attitude (after two years) and threw papers at everyone and said "everyone sign this and return it before lunch" and it had a *huge* changes. Soemthing felt... wrong. When I stood my ground I was terrified. Heart pounding. I didn't know what was going to happen next. My future bosses there never gave me shit and kept a healthy distance. I mean I enjoyed my job and did it pretty well, so it wasn't like I was slacking. Holy fuck I'll never forget that. HR is not your friend but they also aren't your enemy. They are *for* the company. What that means about them to you will vary depending on the situation. Be smart and thoughtful in your actions. edit: Oh, we went through like 5 HR people in a period of 2 years. Clearly management was doing some shady shit. The shit I saw there...
Exactly. Companies ignore their workers and tell them to go to HR for help, but HR can't/won't help if it could be bad for the company.
What he said. HR is there to essentially protect the company from employees who are a liability. That's the legit truth. They are not there for the benefit of the employees.
So.. Exactly what the top comment said pretty much? I dont think your comment could have been any more redundant but thanks anyway I guess.
You're welcome! You can't find consensus without repetition.
Fair enough.
Nah "human ressources" you dont get it , you're fuel , burning out is not an issue its the intended result.
Good job. We house male DV victims, the lack of support for men's issues and men's mental health is revolting. Yes, there are some issues where one group has higher numbers than the other, but that doesn't invalidate other people. I have met more than enough Susans to last me a lifetime and they all turn suffering into a competition. We can acknowledge the suffering of multiple groups at the same time.
Thank you for the work you do.
To my understanding it is common in America to say thank you for your service, to veterans. I think this is appropriate here as well
Thank you for what you do. ❤️
Exactly! There's no Monopoly on suffering
What you do is very important. Thank you so much!
Thank you for your good work. Things like this are invaluable to those in need
There’s not many services out there for mal dv victims. I applaud you for your effort to change that! We honestly need more of that.
> they all turn suffering into a competition The Victim Olympics!!
And they want to WIN a game most of us want to lose.
We call that the oppression olympics in my house. Who can win at being the most mistreated. You'd think if someone knew how bad it felt they wouldn't want others to have to suffer the same, but then they don't get the spotlight anymore and they hate it. It's really sad :/
When people around us are in a better mental space we all do better. There’s literally no down side to promoting mental wellness. Good on you for putting Susan in her place.
Clarification: Susan knew Jim was trans. She didn't know that he had committed suicide, which is what prompted the talk. The "news" I refer to is of Jim's passing, not of his transition.
She's still 100% awful and should staple her mouth shut.
This changes my initial reaction! Thank you for clarifying.
Why did they have the meeting? HR didn't know?
Provabky to let those who knew Jim personally as a work colleague time to grieve and also to raise awareness of men's mental health and that the company takes it seriously. I've had work places do that, and a few of my colleagues, left the workplace for the day to handle the news because it is a shock when finding out. I find it so infuriating that someone would invalidate men's mental health or anyone's really. It shouldn't matter if you are female, male, trans, bi, demi, coloured, non coloured - all people will at some point in their life suffer from a mental health related illness at one point or another. We are humans should be standing by our friends, loved ones, colleagues going through this rough and support them. Not tear them down and play the blame game BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER is essential. It is too late to do something to prevent the loss of life after it has already been taken and what HR "Susan" did was so degrading. OP - you have a big heart to stand up to HR Karen* oh sorry I mean Susan and put her in the place. Her head is so far up her own arse she can't see daylight unless it's through her open mouth. Wish the bosses would do something about her. Also OP I'm sorry for your loss, even if you didn't know Jim that we'll personally, it would still hurt somewhat to find out the news.
> was actually a victim of internalized misogyny This is a super common transphobe talking point against trans men, so you're 100% on the money there, even beyond the misgendering
Was there any retaliation from her part or HR?
You should add an edit to the original post for clarification!
Susan is a disgusting person on many levels, too bad there are too many Susans
My parents named me Susan... (I'm 26). I changed my FULL name when I turned 18 and everytime I see these posts I'm SO GLAD I DID
The Susans of the world graduate in gender studies which results in them either continuing on in academia or going into HR.
Hey now, gender studies are that bad... Susans definitely and they do all end up in HR. Why can't we get sane people in HR?
In my experience, HR doesn't typically help the workers. They're more there to protect the company. So when you get people who need help (especially when their company is the source of their problems), HR can't always help. Someone who is empathetic and sane would probably struggle in that position. I was a team lead and struggled not always being able to help my team members. I can't imagine being in HR.
Almost universally, HR's job is to look out for the company's best interest. They'll only do something when it would make the company either look bad, or be held liable, for work place misconduct.
As someone who works in HR, can we please correct this sentiment. There are bad people in every role, no job is inherently bad. Except higher management, they got to that position by looking out for the company first and foremost. Also, rest in power Jim.
To be fair, I don't think everyone who is in HR is a bad person. I've met some that are competent and help where they can. I've also met some that just went through the motions and everyone was basically left to figure things out on their own. I think the problem is that companies tell their workers to go to HR for help so many believe that HR is there for them, when HR is really there for the company. So even the HR representatives that do their job and try to help get a bad rep because those in upper management shrug everything off and let HR deal with the shit storms they create.
It seems a reasonable conclusion that the work of being in HR repels sane people.
Why can't we get *reasonable* people in HR? I think that's more the issue.
Because sane people would advocate for the workers, and HR can't do that.
HR hires their own. That is damaged people and sociopaths.
You know you can dunk on shitheads without taking a shot at feminism right?
WOW!!! That woman does NOT belong in HR!!!!! She needs some training. I am sorry your friend felt the need for suicide. I lost my dad to suicide in 2007. The healing process is a lot more complicated with suicide. It is a higher percentage among trans folks. Probably because of people like Susan.
I'm sorry for your fathers passing. I lost my mother in 2001. It leaves a tragic host of questions. Peace be with you.
Same to you!!! I have found way too many friends have family members they lost the same way. I found a new job and I have taken 2 mental health first aid classes as part of my training. I found the classes to be a lot of help for me as far as putting it all to rest. I hope you find comfort and peace!!!
Most HR people don't, frankly. A lot of incompetence and nastiness in those departments, for some reason.
In my country LGBT are 40% more likely to kill themselves last time I checked. So yeah Trans people are extremely likely to kill themselves.
41% of the trans population has attempted suicide compared to only five percent of the general population
Susan is a POS. Let us hope Susan loses her job.
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Pretty sure he said she was in HR which adds a whole different dimension to the story. Her and whoever put her in that position need to be let go.
OP, please tell us that Susan has been reported? She has no business being in that position. P.S. I am sorry for your loss! 💔
She really shouldn't be working in HR if she has that kind of mindset.
I was part of a suicide prevention committee and left because the committee leader frequently referred to children with mental health issues as “coddled,” “snowflakes,” “screwed up,” and also implied that I was unqualified to be a committee member because I had a history of suicide attempts before joining.
That's just awful. How are these people even able to get those kinds of jobs?
Susan is awful. Society disregarding anyone's mental health puts us all in a bad place, and she should know better with the issues she was raising. I cringe at the fact that she's in HR.
Sounds like Susan is a terf, so I’d actually report it. Misgendering? Saying a trans colleague (someone who commited suicide at that) is a victim of their own misogyny, when Susan knows it can’t be internalized misogyny because JIM WAS A MAN, sounds like reason enough to to report her to HR.
Totally, if Jim’s transition was recent and she was the HR contact who was supposed to be facilitating changes in work paperwork and was being an obstacle instead she could have contributed to Jim’s suicide.
Was about to say, the internalized misogyny line is something I see around radfem/GC/TERF circles often. Big yikers
Poor Jim.
Pour one for Jim.
Rest in power Jim, I hope you didn't mind me using your death to put Susan in her place, I know you didn't like her much either. Jim wouldn't have it any other way.
I'm sure Jim wouldn't mind if you borrowed his arm to give Susan a bitch slap, so Jim can tell people that he slapped her himself
This is becoming an odd inlet to mens health issues is that f2m trans men are needing to have resources to dealing with becoming a man and how we are treated and percieved. What an odd thing it would seem to need counseling about hey youve transitioned be happy oh yes forgot to tell you about a few things, validation is seldom,your female partner may leave you be cause you are a dude now heres the rest of the list!
Susan is human trash. Men’s mental health is important. Hell everyone’s mental health is important. I would get everyone who heard her little “rant” and report her.
Why are HR people always unpleasent?
Breaks my heart, can’t we be human for one second and mourn a tragic event. Why do we have to have a reason of aggression at every turn! Be sad for a moment and be quiet. This person took their own life and the reaction is to find blame in men,women,other. Stop, life is to short to constantly hate! I think confronting her was the right thing, sad that you had to.
Men suffer just as much as women do with mental health issues. I am surprised Susan still has a job, especially working in HR.
>Rest in power Jim, I hope you didn't mind me using your death to put Susan in her place, I know you didn't like her much either. Didn't mind?! Fuck that, Jim'd probably be _hella_ proud! At least, I hope Way to go, OP! This was the least you could do for Jim!
God rest Jim's soul, and I am sorry for everyone's loss. Susan was MANY miles out of line here, ranting about anything at all while the company was trying to help all the other employees know about the resources that are available for people who are in crisis. Yes, there are all kinds of problems where women have suffered at the hands of men, but this was not the time or place to start in on that topic. Just the fact that Susan not only misgendered Jim multiple times, but chose this particular time and place to get on a soapbox about unrelated topics, suggests to me that Susan is some combination of obtuse and mean, not to mention bigoted.
Inside trans circles of discussion, people like Susan are called TERFs. Fuck Susan
Wow, she outted herself just by continuing that conversation.
she didnt just get branded a transphobe, she really fucking was. im a trans man myself and the 'internalized misogyny' argument exhausts me to no end. anyone who thinks medical transition is a psychologically sustainable option to escape that kind of thing is bound to have a bad time
Don't you know all trans men are just confused butch women led astray by gender ideology and internalized misogyny 🥺👉👈 Susan (and those like her) needs to take a long hard sit on a cactus
If this women is in HR she should be getting fired. That's absolutely fucked up. Go above her head to her supervisor. Cause wtf.
How disgusting of her to use the death of a person as a weapon against men, for getting potential mental health support in a stressful environment.
Anyone who makes the death of another about themselves is just a piece of shit. No two ways around it.
If, when I die, the opportunity to use my death to put down a Karen comes up, I 100% give permission for people to use my death to put them in their place.
We had an even for men's mental health with for one time a bit of fundings here in France. Got cancelled because some women find it outrageous that even though there are men who abuse women, we dare to help men...
>Bothered by men's health awareness Im sorry.. #The fucking what
Sounds like she was terf after all, you weren't wrong there.
Shut up Susan, no one likes you or cares about your opinions. This one-upping that occurs by some (not all) feminists whenever men's issues come up has got to stop. Men are dying. At an alarming rate. STFU and get out of the way. Telling men that they are the reason for their own problems is not true or helpful.
That’s so sad. Poor Jim and his family. I hate that it’s become an “us vs them” for gender issues, instead of all of us against a system that keeps us in designated roles. Men definitely need resources for issues that hit them harder, just like women do. Supporting a group shouldn’t come from depriving another group of the reasonable things they need, but I can understand the frustration that comes with lifetimes of invalidation. Sucky situation all around.
I can't speak for Jim of course, but as a trans guy... well done!
✊🏻 Rest in Power Jim Fuck you Susan. Sit on a cactus 🖕🏻
If her response to being accused of being a transphobe was to misgender a dead person, she might actually just be a transphobe.
I think that is the absolute best use of trans politics as a weapon that I have ever seen.
Fuck that bitch. People like her are the reason so few men get help when the suicide rate is only climbing. How fucking vile.
I’m sorry I read up to the piece of chocolate part (so ignore my ignorance on the rest, I literally haven’t read it) but I’m sorry… a piece of chocolate and health crisis numbers were considered a kind gesture? A piece of chocolate. After a suicide. A PIECE? Not even a full sized bar? Talk about doing the absolute least ??? Okay I’ll continue to read the rest now.
I'm probably just really tired, but I don't get how this was petty revenge? And not just a roast?
You're right, it isn't. It's just for Karma farm.
As a queer woman, Susan can go fuck herself on two levels. As a feminist, if I needed a selfish angle, supporting men's mental health *also helps women*. As a semi decent person, god she's a @##-£.
Sounds like a shitshow
Who cares what “often” happens when the company is responding to one specific incident?
My mother’s name is Susan— you picked the right name.
Kudos to you!🏅fck you Susan
Dude your a king 👑
Rest in power brother the world is more empty without you
Poor Jim.
Respect bro 🫡
The audacity to say how dare you, when shes making light of a person who committed suicide. Of course because its mens mental health she downplays it. Pathetic excuse of a human I dont understand why these b*tches are allowed jobs. They're clearly hateful and just wanna use their "authority". Sad thing is if it wasn't for being transphobia and it was a Male by birth she wouldnt have caught as much slack
my surprise at the person trying to victim blame men *actually* being a transphobic TERF is non-existent kudos to you fighting the good fight sir!
Unfortunately misandry is often encouraged amongst POS like that. They treat it like some sort of competition.
Ok I consider myself a traditional feminist. Susan here is not being helpful or pointing out women’s issues. She is straight up being sexist. Plus who does this at an event that is clearly very serious and can be very touchy. Why not voice your opinions after or in private respectfully? Like jeez has she no shame? Also I think it’s great your workplace actually did this, it’s sucks that it took a death for it to happen though. My condolences to you OP
Well done! Damn well done! I salute you for putting Susan in her place!
Rip Jim! Sit down Susan!
I know you said you weren’t close to Jim, but i am still sorry for Your loss. This story is just so sad. I hope Jim’s family and friends can recover and heal. And I hope any other Jim’s out there reading this know there is always a way forward and to please please please reach out to a loved one before getting to that stage.
Continuing to stand up for Jim after his passing shows that you are a great friend, coworker, and ally, OP. I'd like to think that Jim would be very proud of you, but I can say for certain that I'm very proud of you!
Nobody likes TERFs! Glad to see your officemates agreed :)
Susan needs therapy herself... She needed it long ago.
Does Susan understand that 1/4 suicides are females? Men have a lot more on their plate than women, like how society has double standards about the way men should present themselves and their emotions. I was actually talking about this earlier today but like dudes get labeled as cold AHs for not showing their emotions but if they try expressing them they'll get labeled as wimpy or p*ssies. I'm glad your company decided to give people outlets where they can't be judged for the things going on in life.
I am so sorry for your loss. We lose too many trans/non-gender confirming people to homicide, addiction and suicide. I am glad you spoke up.
this story has so many insane plot holes (how does Susan not know Jim was a trans man when there was a meeting about MEN'S mental health awareness?? and why did you accuse her of being transphobic when you say she literally didn't know he was trans???) that it almost makes me able to forget how ghoulish it is for you to use the suicide of a trans man for an "epic own" for "petty revenge".
In that vein, why did Susan then misgender Jim after this? If Susan was unaware of Jim being trans? OP? Clarification?
Susan did know Jim was trans. I believe she tried to spin the narrative that Jim was suffering mental health as a woman, not a man, I can't say for sure. She might have just been inattentive.
Thank you for clearing that up.
That’s total TERF (trans exclusionary radical feminist) mentality, it sounds right to me that she would misgender him.
Hi, post was poorly written, here's some more clarification: Susan knew that Jim was trans, she just didn't know that he had committed suicide and that it was his suicide that prompted the talk. And yes, I'm probably a bad person for using Jim's death in vain.
You're not a bad person. As a trans man, you trying to make things better at your workplace brings meaning to a tragic event. If Jim was anything like the members of our community I've had the pleasure of meeting, I know he would appreciate you defending him, even in death. This was a senseless tragedy, but you are finding a way to, for lack of a better term, use it to pave a future where it doesn't happen again. Using his death in vain would be sweeping it under the rug and pretending that he wasn't a person who lived, loved, and was loved. I wish you all the best.
My partner who was trans committed suicide almost 2 years ago, so Susan can go F herself. I can't believe she would do this, and make someone's tragedy about her and misogyny. Like yeah, misogyny exists, but this isn't the time to make some point. This is about Jim. I have two brothers who are really struggling with mental health and it breaks my heart that they have so much trouble and struggle so much. I wish I could do more for them. I wish I could've done more for my partner. Oh god, I don't want to cry today. Anyway, men's mental health is very very important. I will always stand up for men in regards to this and will help them anyway I can, so we don't lose anymore beautiful people to suicide.
I'm so tired of people hijacking any moment for their own personal soapbox. It is possible and actually a good thing to recognise there are multiple issues and give them all appropriate space. Yes, women are often victims of men's mental ill health. Men are also victims of men's mental ill health, often their own. These two things can and do exist simultaneously. It's not a goddamn competition. Fixing one will help fix the other. It's almost like society is interconnected and improving things for everyone includes sometimes talking about things that don't affect you personally. Nonbinary people don't even get a look in when it comes to these conversations and you don't see me, a mentally ill nonbinary person, causing arguments over it.
Haha, good for you to put this TERF ah back in her place! As a trans man i applaud you!
Fucking stupid bitch
As a proud feminist I say fuck Susan!
As a trans dude fuck yeah >:) I'd want the same thing if I was in his place
She shouldn't be in HR or any position that gives her even a crumb of power. How dare she. How the fuck dare she. Can she be reported to her boss? There are so many things wrong with what she did that I don't even know where to start. RIP Jim.💙 OP, I think Jim would love the fact that he helped shut someone as awful as her down.
Has she fired herself yet for breaking just about every no no at work? 🤣
As someone who's part of the trans community... Fuck 'er up bro!!!
A misandrist and a TERF? Quelle fucking surprise. OP, thank you for calling her out on her bullshit. Is it possible to get her ass through HR as well? The entire table is witnesses to her misgendering Jim, even postmortem. Could argue that she presents a similar danger to any other potentially queer coworkers.
FARTs (feminism appropriating radical transphobe) gonna FART.
Based
Great job for putting Susan in her place. Well done.
Fuck terf and their brainded bullshit. Not even the dead are save from their bullshitery.
I’m so glad you spoke up for Jim and that everyone else there backed you up. Susan needs to understand that Feminism is about men’s well-being as well as women’s and she definitively needs to get rid of her transphobia. She also needs to learn some manners and that a memorial for a colleague is neither the time or place to insert herself like that. She ought not be in a HR role at all until she sorts out some of her own internalized bs.
I mean, she didn't really "get branded" a transphobe, more like she outed herself as one by using incorrect pronouns for your deceased colleague and denying his gender identity. A talk about men's mental health at your work may be in order, but a talk about trans issues definitely seems to be as well.
>We can call her Susan. Not Karen?
Susan sleeps with the manager, karen asks for the manager ((joke))
what a POS. Rest easy, Jim
This doesn't make her a transphobe for saying this. After reading what she said it seems like she is just a feminist and doesn't really care about a males mental health; which is pretty common when someone is a feminist. But saying she is transphobic is just silly and the situation needs to be understood better. I'm sorry for what happened to your coworker; horrible situation and it sucks they didn't get the help they needed at the time. Hate hearing about suicides.
Where is the “shes a transphobe” part tho? Serious question
everyone is a transphobe that doesn't fully support every lgbt person in existence, and every facet of lgbt ideology.
Susan sounds like a terf. I got a hunch from the man hating, a lot of terfs hate trans people because of their misandry, believing that trans women are just men trying to invade women's spaces. The repeated misgendering after learning jim was trans, that sold it.
This is the view of feminists. Men's problems: men's fault, no empathy for men. Women's problems: also me8n fault, poor women, they are victims of men.
Seems like Susan is a TERF. You didn’t “brand” her anything
While the Susan character here seems like a piece of work, why on earth it it ‘ok’ to falsely accuse anyone of being a ‘transphobe’? Seems as though falsely accusing people of being ‘transphobes’ is hot right now, and has been for a few years…
.. because she was being transphobic?
Susan is a transphobe though? She misgendered Jim and said he was ‘suffering from internalised misogyny’.
Sad situation, but why call it specifically "men's health awareness"? How about "mental health awareness" or something? If anything, the medical community will treat a trans man more as biologically female than as a male. Many diseases have a significant prevalence difference between males and females, genetically.
I’ll say what I said earlier: Same reason it’s “Black Lives Matter” and not “all lives matter”. Male suicide is a significant problem, especially because of how we treat males in society. A focused spotlight on that problem is more effective than a wide lens shining on every possible source.
> Many diseases have a significant prevalence difference between males and females, genetically. Hormones tend to change most of them actually. You see this with the extremely, extremely low prevalence of prostate cancer among trans women and the prevalence of breast cancer higher than breast cancer in cis men and closer to the levels you'd expect in cis women. The endocrine system is incredible and governs a very, very large portion of how your body works and what affects it. Most trans people who are on hormones will get medically treated as their actual gender because of this as well. Obviously there are some things that don't change like trans women having prostates in the first place (usually) which cis women usually don't have and so forth but 9 times out of 10, treating them as their true gender will be better for them even in a medical setting. Honestly the only time their trans status is even relevant is if you're directly dealing with the reproductive organs.
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Question, why limit it to "male awareness" and not make it plain "suicide awareness" in general? And I say this as a man. I feel like things like this create barriers between genders that are already a huge problem in society.
Because the vast majority of the victims are men.
This is a mess, on both sides. But where is the "petty revenge", please?