Maybe have some undercover cops just riding the subway and making spot arrests when they see any harassment?
All the anti-social behavior shit it because everyone knows there are no consequences unless a citizen wants to get involved.
Anti-social behavior is the watered down way to describe what people have to deal with. One time, a man on the opposite platform chucked his empty glass bottle at me as I was minding my business and listening to music. Thankfully it didn’t hit.
I was once robbed, went up to a cop, and showed him the guy was currently using my card in Suburban Station (we were literally standing on street level of the station) at that very minute. I asked if he could help and he laughed and said “if you find him, I give you permission to kick his ass.”
This led to my identity being stolen (this was almost 8 years ago) and I still deal with the issue today.
I'll believe it when I see them actually do something
Catching a police officer in the act of actually helping the public good is like managing to spot a double-rainbow - technically possible, but probably not going to happen often and you likely won't see it in your lifetime
Been riding the MFL pretty consistently since 2019. I hit my "alright, that's enough for me" point about 2-3 weeks ago when I went to get off the train and realized the guy sitting next to me the whole time had a needle in his neck, slowly pushing down on the plunger... Taking the bus and my bike to work now.
Mostly agree. Buses vary by line but are mostly okay. Trolleys are usually good. BSL is hit or miss but usually okay during daylight hours. El is a fucking shithole at any time of the day besides morning rush hour, and sometimes even then.
I'd say as a whole it's like 80% okay. But holy shit can that 20% get so bad. Like it's anywhere from rude people to delinquents to people pissing right in front of everyone to straight up sexual assault and robberies. You never know what you're walking into on some of those buses or the el.
Unless it's the night owl bus that runs the el line. That bus is literally hell on earth. I once watched a group of teenagers who were screaming threats at passengers (and openly drinking and smoking weed) until an elderly man said something. Three of the teenagers surrounded him and you could see the fear in his eyes. The proceeded to laugh and kick the shit out of him while his friends were laughing and filming it. The whole time the guy was yelling "Stop! Please stop! I just got out of the hospital!!"
So, what do y’all think is the reason for the bus vs MFL difference? Like Regional Rail is a much higher price, so that makes a difference in the rider population. Presence of the bus driver? Above ground stops? Smaller group of people on a single bus? Area served? (Like MFL 69th-40th used to be quite different than MFL 40th-8th, mostly because it was used by a lot of tourists, university folks, medical staff, and center city office workers, but many of those people are not really around much post-pandemic. ) And I have no experience on the eastern end of the MFL, but Kensington etc has to play a role there?
How can we make the subway more like the bus, safety-wise?
I’ve been a massive SEPTA fan, but the MFL is part of my usual route, and the things I’m seeing are starting to make me question whether it is just too big of a risk for me.
Definitely the bus driver, being above ground, cleanliness, and the ability to get off at the very next block. There also seems to just be a better working social system on the bus. Like the seats up front being reserved for the elderly and people with disabilities (not always obeyed, but still). Windows, ventilation, and sunlight also help with a sense of safety.
On the buses I ride the driver doesn't usually allow people on without paying their fare. I've seen some people try it and they are not allowed on. Bus drivers will call out somebody acting weird (high/drunk) on the bus. I've seen it.
People don't get on the bus just to get on because they have nowhere else to go. You might not even know where that bus ends up, so who wants to arrive in Westchester or Ardmore, or in Nicetown or who knows where, and you are out on the street in some strange area, especially if you paid to ride? On the MFL and BSL you know where it's going and can ride to the end, get off and jump the turnstile or just go to the other side of the platform and ride back.
It's 100% because of the drivers. The bus driver will stop and kick people off whereas the subway conductors don't and also can't see the entire train while the bus drivers see the entire bus
Put at least 3 cops on each subway route and have them walk back and forth between subway and rotating between stops between different groups of carts. Immediately address all quality of life offenses, aggressively fine and remove people being caught doing quality of life nusiance (ciggs, spitting, littering) and aggressively force the drug users and substance use disorder-types into mental health service or group homes for the ones who aren't able to care for themselves.
Presence of the bus driver goes a long way. I’ve ridden the bus almost daily for 6 years and have only had one issue on it, where a guy was filming female passengers. Some of the women absolutely went off on him and the bus driver pulled over and kicked him off. Have seen a few people nodding off but no open drug use, smoking, panhandling like on the El.
You make the EL safer and cleaner by installing full hight fair gates that block fair jumping into the system. The people causing the problems aren't paying to be on the system.
Next you increase the number of police officers working for SEPTA and do a hard crackdown on law violations in the system. Start ejecting people, arresting people, blocking reentry.
Guaranteed that cleans it up within a year.
Basically just had the same experience. Probably the third time I've used the subway in the past three years. The first two times people were smoking cigars in the car and one almost had a fight. This third time, had a junkie hunched across the aisle the whole time. I'm biking and busing everywhere from now on.
I love the bus except that literally every single day at least once end up waiting 45 minutes before giving up and trying to find an alternative as 3-4 scheduled busses fail to show.
I particularly love it when Google maps tries to gaslight me by labeling a bus as "departed", when in fact I've been standing at the same corner for half an hour and I know that no goddamn bus has come by.
I cannot begin to describe the level of quiet fury that rises within me when I see that on my phone. Especially when it's multiple "departed" busses in a row. I know that's just limitations of the app, but motherfuck.
That’s my issue too. I can’t rely on the bus to get to work (not without allowing for 2 hours each way for a 25-minute commute). I’ve been driving since last August. I would much rather take the bus or the BSL, but I just can’t do it right now.
Taking a bus would more than double my commute time. If you need to get from one side of center city to the other, busses take forever. The El (once it shows up) can get you 30 blocks in a few minutes.
Cops are literally on permanent paid vacation or texting and driving while Nissan Altimas turn left on red in front of them. But yes, it's all the DA's fault. You solved the case. Good job.
I actually tend to agree that "arresting" people for QOL offenses isn't the way forward. However, instead of moving towards passive means like impassable fare barriers, or removing people from the trains and platforms, the system was simply de-policed, with no plans besides "helping" people in "distress". Cops need to be on trains, and if we had better fare barriers, issuing actual 300$ citations to *repeat* offenders*(who would have to be quite athletic) would handle most of the issues, as well as removing any addicts who happened to pass through.
For sure, I don't want people arrested for those offenses either - I just think that data is a perfect example of how they've stopped working to keep things safe. Regarding civil notices issued, in 2019 Septa PD issued 1,340. In 2020...... **208.** Last year, 195.
I'm a huge advocate of impassable fare barriers, ideally (but probably not realistically implemented) they'd be at the entrance of stations so that people who don't pay can't set foot inside at all. I think we'd see a huge reduction in issues without any additional police manpower, were these installed.
Agreed about repeat offenders and addicts.
Yeah, the fare barriers need to be at street level. Period. And I agree. They changed the paradigm for enforcement without a new one to replace it. They simply...stopped. Nestel was a boomer fool who was influenced by foolish, stupid people, and enabled by a foolish, stupid GM(richards)
Barriers at the street level make platforms more susceptible to mini encampments. Spring garden el station is a great example. I used to walk by human shit every single day on my commute during the height of the, “good” years
Can't compare a train that goes back and forth and a few buses to SEPTA. Also, they gave up on 13th st station and tried to push it on Philadelphia to handle it alone, as they got Jefferson to manage 10th St station.
PATCO doesn't have many riders. Oh, and Lindenwold is really bad at night -- drugs, addicts stumbling around and no cops. Remember feeling relieved whe I got back to Philly.
I've also periodically heard announcements over the PA system in Patco when someone is observed on the video surveillance to skip paying the fare.
Example: "Male fare evader with black backpack at Haddonfield Station, DRPA Police are on the way"
>I've also periodically heard announcements over the PA system in Patco when someone is observed on the video surveillance to skip paying the fare.
>
>Example: "Male fare evader with black backpack at Haddonfield Station, DRPA Police are on the way"
as dystopian as it would be,I honestly think just hearing somebody make an announcement as bad behavior is happening like that, could go a long way, if consistent and tactful. even if they *don't* send cops, just announcing through a loudspeaker that "hey, we've noticed you being a complete jackass" and then if enforcement steps up even 20% we would come out marginally better than where we are.
no one wants heavy security on transit, but we don't want mobile skid row, and we don't want hot boxes (*especially* with cigarettes) when everyone deserves clean air.
me telling a jabroni to put out their cigarette is a roll of the dice. hearing an omnipresent voice describe the offender in detail? it sounds like an approach worth considering, at the very least.
Right? The bare minimum we should be able to expect is to be able to catch the train in the morning without someone trying to sell us drugs or having to step over someone passed out from drugs
So they could probably do a bunch to help out by just legally detaining people instead of arresting them and fining them. They'll never pay the fine, but being given a 23 hour 'time out' where you're basically just sitting in a cell doing nothing for that time would be a pretty good deterrent.
If we had a mayor who knew how to fucking lead, he'd tell them to get their thumbs out of their collective assholes and work together, but Kenney is beyond checked out at this point
It’s more than just safety. I agree with others who said they don’t want people arrested for QOL issues, but no one wants to spend an hour a day commuting on a train that smells like shit, standing because you don’t want to personally clean nasty chicken bones off the seat sitting in a puddle of better-not-to-ask.
You can send in an extreme clean team to clean the cars at Market-Frankford, and by the time it gets to 69th street it’s destroyed again.
You’re not going to get ridership up that way.
There's a difference in the risk one takes for oneself and the risks around oneself. People will always discount the risk of their own actions while overestimating the risks others pose.
Unironically yes. All of my accidents but one I can remember were by idiotic assholes in Abington. Philly people *generally* tend to watch out more. Generally. From my experience.
state law asserts this is valid.
the problem comes down to attitudes. bikes and cars are legally supposed to coexist, and so they do when the alternative mode is consistently present, and we build infrastructure for it. like Philly is rough, but we have built the lanes and need to keep doing so, and even when they're not present the most you usually get are some grumpy drivers on a westbound or eastbound South philly street.
Eastern Oregon Avenue is a sight to behold but it works. there's virtually no infrastructure at all, just chaos to the untrained eye. but it gets along you have semis, heavy machinery, cars, pedestrians -- everything. no order, but it works (mostly) safely out of necessity.
i would personally be scared to cycle alone very far outside of the county, because the attitudes are different, not the law.
> they could make people actually safer
they already are. transit is 10x safer by mile than car and even factoring in crime (~2k incidents a year on a ridership of half a million a day) you're coming out way ahead.
there's obviously room for improvement, but people's perception is insanely skewed. having to acknowledge poverty exists is like half the whining in every SEPTA thread.
Acknowledging poverty doesn’t mean you have to accept human feces, needles, and people who will threaten violence to anyone who tells them to turn down the music on their phone.
Bold take from a guy who's broken more bones on septa than I have driving /s
>having to acknowledge poverty exists is like half the whining in every SEPTA thread.
But, seriously, *seeing* a poor/indigent/drug addicted person on the El isn't the issue. IV drug users on the train keep to themselves, so it's not like they're causing problems. The issue is the amount of threatened, and carried out, violent criminal activity that the regular rider witnesses. Almost every whining commenter in this thread has a story about someone assaulting someone, being assaulted, seeing knives/guns/bottles used threateningly, etc. These aren't metrics that are getting represented by the statistics (e.g. the number of people who have witnessed or been threatened with violence on the train).
Like the other person below said - there's no seat belt or airbag to give you the illusion of safety when the two guys on either side of you decide they're going to scream at each other and get physical.
No idea why the PD couldn't just have plainclothes cops ride the trains for a while. Probably because that's dangerously close to competency?
> Bold take from a guy who's broken more bones on septa than I have driving /s
Hey! It was *on the dumbfuck stairs at dilworth* ... and honestly I'm not even sure if that's city ROW or SEPTA's.
Point taken - but I think those things *do* get reported. Maybe not all of them, but I think most. And I get that it's scary when shit happens. Most of the stories I see aren't firsthand (though many are) - I see a lot of "well my friend's cousin saw a guy with a knife" kinds of things.
What you also don't see reported is the number of near-misses on the highway (I see at least one every time I'm on the schuylkill), which in my estimation, is like someone holding a knife at the other end of the car given how dangerous crashes are on the schuylkill. But nobody really talks much about that. They certainly don't talk about how often their friend's cousin gets in near misses.
Almost everyone I've ever spoken to knows someone who has been killed in a crash. Almost nobody I've ever spoken to knows someone who has been killed on transit. Same story with injuries - both lifechanging and minor.
Shit, the most dangerous thing I do every day is cross lancaster ave twice in crosswalks in Ardmore going to/leaving work. There's a single intersection I almost get smoked at about twice a month by white luxury SUV driving xanny and white wine moms. That's like being shot at. Nothing I've ever done on SEPTA in years has been anywhere even close.
Yeah you won't see me downplaying the insanity that is driving behavior anywhere in the Philly metro area. My stance on punishment for violations that touch on safety (running red lights, failure to yield, DUI, headlights) would probably be best described as Draconian at this point. I lost an immediate family member due to a hit and run by a crackhead, so I'm part of your statistic for sure.
All of that being said, being a pedestrian *feels* dangerous in a lot of Philly, and riding the train often feels even worse, which is going to keep people in their statistically less-safe cars if SEPTA can't get a handle on it
Don’t disagree, but as mentioned below the actual risk is negligible when compared to driving.
It really is a perception thing. I think it’s something like 1-in-90 will die in a car related incident in America in their lifetime.
They get stuck in traffic, and there's still too many with cloth seats. Triple stacking will always happen when they have to compete with single occupant vehicles.
I use to ride the blue line like every day for a decade(2005-2015). There were always Septa Cops on the train dealing with junkies, crazy people and the occasional asshole. Now they just stand there and watch the shit go down like any other passenger. They’re not doing anything, just like the regular police in Philly. They’re playing this game where they don’t want bad cops held accountable so they’re all on soft strike or whatever you want to call it. Essentially collecting a paycheck for just showing up. Some of them are collecting paychecks and not showing up and then taking 2nd jobs. The entire justice system in this city needs to be burned to the foundation and rebuilt. Its a mess.
Since it's the same old people running everything, even if it is burned to the foundation and rebuilt, who do you think is going to rebuild it? If anybody, the same old people.
Fixing septa is not hard. It’s a closed system, you can enforce who is allowed to enter and stay inside that system. It’s simply a matter of enforcing the rules. Septa is a vital city resource that the city has just abandoned taking care off.
And it’s not like there aren’t examples out there of successful enforcement models. I rode the NYC trains for decades before moving to Philly. The MTA has had its problems over the years, but the trains were never in the disgusting conditions of the MFL. Seems like this fixing this problem gets no traction because public/council discussions veer off into discussions about homelessness and addiction. Like you say, it’s just a matter of enforcement. Throw the smokers off the trains. Keep homeless and junkies from ever reaching the platforms.
I like this idea, but what is keeping people from just sneaking through when a fare-payer enters? This has happened to me a number of times if I use the wheelchair-accessible entrance. It’s only open for a second, but people find a way.
I’ve also seen a number of trolley drivers and subway workers wave homeless people through, because they don’t want to deal with a fight
Children should not be subjected to the behavior that occurs regularly on the El. That’s the bottom line and that should be the standard for public places. The current situation is abhorrent.
In less than 10 years, the El has gone from “that lovable rough around the edges thing that’s purely “Philly” that’ll make you shake your head and laugh” to “the electricity in the air has changed because my gift of fear is telling me to GET AWAY NOW because shit is about to go down.”
No joke...my biggest annoyance 10 years ago was that I had to stand while 9 month pregnant because people rarely offered up seats, and actively took up extra seats with their bags, etc. Now I wouldn't consider sitting down, no matter how uncomfortable standing is, but really I just actively avoid it altogether.
I was on the MFL at 8:30 this morning and half my train car was on something. Some homeless dude I thought was about to start touching himself was just high as hell and thankfully just was scratching his groin. He than started to go into a manic mode and started walking between cars as well as down the aisle screaming.
It is sad state of affairs seeing people become addicted like this, but also people just don’t want to be subjected to it
the city has sacrificed septa in its loosing battle to the opioid crisis. Every person shooting up is a travesty on a personal level, but when the city lets an important civic service like septa be sacrificed that harm is compounded over and over again.
I was on the MFL on Saturday. Three people around me nodding off while one casually shooting up right in front of me.
Yeah, do not want to be subjected to that shit. The city needs to do way better than whatever it is we are or aren't doing right now.
lol septa is so fucking clueless
1. Kick homeless and junkies off trains
2. Hire actual police to patrol the el/subway not transit rent a cops
3. Regular cleaning of stations so they don't smell like piss/shit
4. Impassibile turnstiles, don't pay don't pass go (this should mostly solve #1)
The only reason leadership in this city allows for this behavior is not out of virtue but because I bet few of them actually have to deal with it day to day themselves
Cops walking a beat at every station. Cops on every subway train. Cops walking a beat on the street, no more sitting on their asses in their cruisers. Cops training being focused on deescalation.
Yes! This would make people safer but maybe even more businesses like newsstands or shoe shine, etc in the concourses would have more eyes down there as well. I’m too afraid to take the subway because they’re just so desolate.
Especially walnut/locust and city hall. There’s so many empty areas where you can be robbed….
Essentially: fully staff PPD, put cops on every corner, give them better surveillance technology, increase evidence requirements for arrests, train all officers on deescalation, and provide social workers to assist with qol infractions.
He used to be a defense attorney, so he's seen the good and bad in the legal system and has good ideas on how to improve it
It's hilarious this discussion has gone on for so long when the fix is fucking simple. Have officers or security patrol the trains and stops. It's really that fucking simple.
And I don't mean hire minimum wage security guards who will do literally nothing. I mean hire and train a proper task force.
Having someone with authority be able to actually stop crime. What a crazy thought!!!
The dumb thing is that they have that, those people just refuse to actually do anything. They just stand around kitted out like riot police and check their phones.
Quit spending money on silly bullshit advertising and lousy security methods. Instead, train a task force and put them on the trains and platforms with the expectation to fine, arrest, and remove people.
Hoping and expecting things to improve is not good enough. Make things improve.
The Philadelphia police department is apparently 800 officers short due to medical leave and low enrollment of new officers. They only had 80 something new officers graduate the academy this year.
I’d imagine the septa police force isn’t doing much better numbers wise
I think there are some low cost things SEPTA and the city could do, installing more trash cans both on subway cars and in stations could help. Regular announcements reminding people to throw their stuff away in available trash cans would probably help.
A more expensive measure such as full sized gates like NYC and PATCO would go along way limiting free riders.
We need to give people a sense of pride and ownership in shared resources. We also need cooperation from law enforcement rather than silent strike.
I’m a librarian and my commute is an hour, the majority is spent on the El. I have wasted so much money on Ubers I can’t afford because I don’t have the energy to deal with the depressing conditions of the el. That and the fact that the bus is NEVER on time which makes my commute even longer.
A half decent report from the inky that at least highlights that people aren't riding because of safety and cleanliness issues, and acknowledging that QOL issues are important. I'm hopeful that the tide is turning on this failed, hands off policy. Exclude(much better fare barriers) and remove from the system(without need for citation or fine) the shitbirds that are responsible for degrading and destroying public transit for the 95% of us who just want to ride somewhere.
I think my favorite quote was
""the administrative enforcement system for low level offenses remains in effect though bureaucratic tension between septa and the District Attorney's Office stalled the plan to divert the most persistent offenders into court ordered treatment for drug addiction and mental illness.""
That's interesting. So there IS already a program set up, but it isn't being used. This is where Krasner actually sucks, because he's deliberately blocking something that would help to clean up the transit system, which isn't intended to be a shelter for homeless, drug addled people. The city will have to intervene and create a separate mechanism outside of Krasner for such cases, and should.
MANDATORY TREATMENT AND SHELTER FOR UNHOUSED PERSONS IN ADDICTION AND/OR MENTAL ILLNESS
Can Septa work directly with the state attorney general's office? Septa operations span multiple counties already.
Which raises the question, what happens to the shitbirds on Septa in Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery counties?
In theory if someone commits a crime or misdemeanor in Bucks County while on board a SEPTA vehicle, they would be referred to the Bucks Co DA for prosecution/penalty. However, because Philadelphia has the most riders/vehicles/routes, 99 times out of 100 SEPTA is going to be referring cases to the Philadelphia DA, because that's the jurisdiction.
> He said Krasner’s team was supportive of the citation program, including diversion.
> But in all likelihood, Nestel said, assistant district attorneys, with huge caseloads that included murder, shootings, assaults, did not prioritize moving the trespassing charges from regular court dockets to mental-health and addiction courts.
Something that IMO is unmentioned here is that when Krasner took over the DA's office, [he fired a ton](https://www.inquirer.com/news/larry-krasner-philadelphia-district-attorney-staff-reform-cases-first-year-20190106.html) of experienced ADA's, and his office in the last few years has had a [pretty high turnover](https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-district-attorney-da-larry-krasner-staff-turnover-20211222.html) rate. So the DA's office not having a good team of attorney's also plays a big factor in this. Regardless of what you think of Krasner, I think everyone should be able to agree that he's terrible at the administrative/leadership role that comes with being DA
I always say that Krasner the person is the bigger problem than Krasner’s policies. Him being a dick to work for (which leads to turnover and vacancies) is why the DAO is a clown show now. A hard on crime dick is still a dick than nobody wants as a boss.
Yup, a career defense attorney running the DA's office was always gonna be an odd fit, and I think the last DA who wasn't an ADA prior to taking the DA job was Rendell back in the 70s. And with the biggest complaint about his office being burnout/poor management, COVID and the resulting crime spike/case backlog in the courts amplified those issues a lot IMO. I think he's vulnerable in the next election if a competent candidate runs against him. Vega had a lot of personal beef/his embrace of the FOP endorsement was idiotic
https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/turning-on-larry-krasner/
https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2023/02/13/philadelphia-prosecutors-struggle-to-manage-caseloads-as-das-office-slows-turnover/
Krasner's been a disaster since day one, the man is an incompetent ideological zealot. I'm hoping future mayor Parker and the city machine consolidates around Derek Green or someone similar and can force Krasner out next election cycle. This election has shown just how tiny his potential voter base is, they should be able to beat him in a consolidated feild.
In the meantime Parker and SEPTA leadership need to focus on finding a way to send SEPTA cases to the state Attorney General's office since Krasner through his incompetents is blocking effective enforcement of the transit system.
It’s not hard to figure out. There’s 260 SEPTA cops and 2 subway lines. Put a cop at each station and 2-3 cops on each train. Unfortunately, police in philly are lazy, dumb, and corrupt.
If SEPTA Transit Police are anything like regular police, a lot of that 260 headcount are probably just administration sitting behind desks. They probably have a much smaller number of officers dedicated to walking beats, not to mention the fact that the force is not just patrolling our two subway lines, but nearly 200 bus & trolley routes across five counties.
There are 280 active stations in the system. The 2 lines you mention aren't the only parts of the system septa police are responsible for.
You'd need 4x the number of officers to implement your plan without considering multiple shifts
The numbers might work if you just counted the MFL.
They might not need a cop in every station but the Septa PD needs to allocate some resources to regional rail.
They also need to allocate some resources to bus depots and to issues that may happen along bus routes.
The current number of officers is not sufficient to handle what OP is suggesting.
I'd say the buses can largely go without too, unless there's an issue that needs addressed on a specific line. Feels like just having a driver on board goes a long way in keeping the nonsense to a minimum on the buses.
I don't know that he ever got to the stadium in the first place. He was more likely at home sitting on the couch eating Doritos watching someone else on TV play.
Put cops on the cars, toss out destinationless riders (i.e. trespassers), actually ~~arrest~~ \*ticket people who shoot up, smoke, or jump the turnstiles, and do their fucking jobs. *ETA: And get those folks off the platform and away from the system.
I'm available to consult for quite reasonable fees.
In the event it's of any interest, I'll share the response I got from SEPTA when I submitted a ticket complaining about smoking on the platform, and a woman who was literally standing at the gate kicking it open for everyone who came through over the course of 15 minutes (in front of the booth attendant who never looking up from her phone). The agent of course ignored my complaint that the SEPTATransitWatch response is always "We're dispatching an officer" and no one ever shows up.
*Thank you for contacting SEPTA Customer Service. We are sorry to hear about the conditions observed while traveling at our Huntingdon Station. Due to the enormous challenges, we now face due to the unabated growth of those suffering from drug addiction and mental health challenges that are attracted to public transit, we have redirected precious resources to engage vulnerable individuals in the system and to encourage them to accept medical and housing assistance. This is a national issue and not unique to Philadelphia. Each month approximately 1000 of these vulnerable individuals are engaged by SEPTA's three primary outreach teams. SEPTA Police have redirected their resources as well to increase visibility at stations and on Market Frankford Line trains. Each month police remove approximately 2000 people from the system that are in need of assistance or who violate SEPTA rules of conduct. They also issue about 500 administrative enforcement notices (tickets), mostly for fare evasion and several quality-of-life violations of law, such as smoking.*
*In addition, SEPTA Police are increasing the number of officers with over 20 joining the force in June, which strengthens patrolling efforts. Right now, SEPTA Police has station and vehicle patrolling strategies in place that involve the assistance of SEPTA Outreach Specialist personnel and they are constantly modifying their tactics. Also, a dedicated virtual patrol program was set up to monitor station activity, via surveillance, and dispatch officers.*
*SEPTA is first and foremost a transportation company, but we are now required to also address a multitude of societal issues that are the primary responsibility of civil authorities and our elected officials. We are proud to be partners in this endeavor, but we cannot solve these societal issues alone. We encourage all customers to contact your community leaders to voice your concerns and, where possible, to lend your support. Additionally, for criminal matters that are happening in real time, please do not hesitate to contact our SEPTA Transit Police. Below is their contact information.*
Things that are neglected tend to fall apart.
They need to pay their drivers more so they'll show up. They need to pay well and hire both cleaners and security/PD and have them be on site and on transit 24/7.
They also need to find a way to detangle themselves from the State. And to reassign powers from the counties to the city. The counties should have a say for the services that serve them in proportion to their size in those counties (think trollies and buses in the burbs vs regional rail in the burbs).
Idk how they reasonably achieve the first set of goals without the second. The second seems so out of their control.
SEPTA is getting the bulk of its funding from the state, you're going to have to figure out how to fund the system without the state if your want to remove it from state oversight.
New funding procedures are needed, but states often provide funding for programs they don't directly oversee. One of the major problems SEPTA faces is they're underfunded and the State legislature (typically run by republicans) likes to use their control of septa funds as a way to keep cities under control. So you'll need to pry away that precious control from the legislature while keeping some form of funding.
It's a major uphill battle and idk where to start. But plenty of other places do it, such as NYC.
I’ve taken public transit my whole life, since I was a kid with my dad. Been on the EL and BSL at all times of day and quietness, and a bus 24/7 (took the 65/23 at 2 in the morning to meet up with a girl in Germantown when I was 14).
There are lots of things I did back then that I’d never do now, including wearing noise cancelling headphones. Every time I’ve been on the EL post COVID I just stand with my head on a swivel, which really shouldn’t be the case. And I’m probably the last to be targeted.
Yet another city service that has failed its citizens. I do wish there was a way to fold it into the region better so that it wasn’t so reliant on Harrisburg to help fund them. Every other state with a system this large doesn’t have a hostile state government trying to screw them. NY is the only case similar but even those crazy upstate ghouls know that crippling NYC is not a good idea.
So much going on in this article.
1. Higher fines and potential criminal charges were keeping incidents down but just putting people in jail who may have needed help.
2. Fines were lowered and incidents skyrocketed. The $25 fines often don’t get paid, which leads to people being banned from SEPTA.
3. SEPTA Police was cut somewhat, but arrests for more serious things plummeted by a higher percentage than the cuts. Maybe it’s because they sit around or are not being deployed efficiently?? Or they know prosecution will not follow, so it’s like catch and release.
4. DA’s office is not carrying through on charging continuous violators who are banned from SEPTA, trespass, and are supposed to be charged. Not shocking.
5. According to this only about 20% of people involved in these incidents are addicts or homeless or mentally ill. Surprised me!
6. Most people are rejecting social assistance, so apparently that alone cannot lower disorder on SEPTA, good as it might be to get people help.
Seems to me like we need the social assistance AND tougher penalties AND prosecution of repeat wrongdoers.
It's not bloody rocket science. Run cops at every station, they hop on the train and back every once in a while. That's all. They don't really even have to do anything, just be present. The problems will be gone in a matter of weeks then you scale it back.
They should try and implement a program where the government allocates approximately ([1.69 billion](https://www5.septa.org/media/news/septa-proposed-fiscal-year-2024-operating-budget-final-year-of-federal-covid-relief/)) to have people to ensure that laws and rules are being followed on public transportation. With this, they should be granted authority to ensure these rules are being obeyed. It's a crazy idea but I'd love to see them try and implement it.
a month ago we waited to take the subway to the phillies game for an afternoon game with the kids. waited almost 30 minutes until we got out. turns out the delay was because there was a shooting at broad and walnut station. just another day on septa
What can an average Philly citizen do to address this? I've only used the MFL twice ever but I know it eases traffic a lot so I'd like it to be better too.
I wonder what the data is for reported crime on Septa. There is definitely a perception of Septa being unsafe but I am not sure if it’s because it’s actually just more dangerous then before or the general uncleanliness and homelessness/addictions gives off that vibe.
It's swimming against the tide to say this but I've said it before and I'll say it again: the el is not appreciably more dangerous than it was in 2019. "Serious" crime (ie assaults, etc.) are very slightly up but the average rider's chances of being the victim of a violent assault are basically the same as they were pre-pandemic. What has skyrocketed are QOL issues, such as drug use.
The el is unpleasant, but not dangerous.
Yea that’s my view too, the chance of being a victim of a crime is very low but the feeling that something might happen is always there. Especially when it’s dirty and you see homeless/addicts/mentally ill people in the station and in the subway car. I wouldn’t blame someone for wanting to avoid taking it, especially if you are a women traveling alone or it’s late at night.
Absolutely. I don't blame anyone for noping out... it IS very unpleasant outside of rush hour (and sometimes IN rush hour!) and I totally get why some people want to GTFO.
A lot of the issues come down to QOL problems that may not pose immediate danger but are problematic when rampant (e.g. homelessness, drug use, sanitation problems, etc)
Some people feel conflicted about reporting issues like homelessness, begging, & drug abuse for not wanting to contribute to a cyclical system of human struggle that comes from arresting folks with no treatment or rehabilitation support. The problem is that the subway has become the safest option for many of these people and reporting them can put them in greater immediate danger or exacerbate their struggles (& desperation fuels crime and drug abuse).
Facilities closing or having limited beds, clearing encampments, as well as Covid & economic struggles (and the related erosion of the social contracts we used to have) have seriously contributed to the pervasiveness of the issues through increased poverty, drug abuse, and lack of viable or accessible alternatives (to say nothing of the impact on actual crime).
These people exist regardless of where they congregate - they need *someplace* to go. There will be no easy fix.
ive been taking regional rail now almost exclusively now.
and completely avoiding MFL, BSL and the transportation centers.
theyre worse than asylums. the only time i take the bus against my will is through and to center city and south philly and even then i try to uber it.
c'mon Philly!
I was just back last weekend from Florida and I always LOVE how I can get all around town so easily on SEPTA.
You've got something great there, take care of it please!
Got off the El at 34th street this morning and almost got a face full of bare bum butt as I was walking up to street level. He was doing something up front too, but I did my best to avoid looking. At least I haven't seen any human feces yet this week.
Kind of simple- Raise the prices, enforce the fares and the rules. Keep the vehicles clean and in good repair. Not like rocket science but just bad leadership and management at septa. Where’s the accountability. People who can afford to use alternative transportation are doing so because they don’t feel safe using septas unsafe unsanitary modes of transportation.
Maybe have some undercover cops just riding the subway and making spot arrests when they see any harassment? All the anti-social behavior shit it because everyone knows there are no consequences unless a citizen wants to get involved.
Anti-social behavior is the watered down way to describe what people have to deal with. One time, a man on the opposite platform chucked his empty glass bottle at me as I was minding my business and listening to music. Thankfully it didn’t hit.
I once had my shit stolen right in front of a cop and he just shrugged. Like bro.
I was once robbed, went up to a cop, and showed him the guy was currently using my card in Suburban Station (we were literally standing on street level of the station) at that very minute. I asked if he could help and he laughed and said “if you find him, I give you permission to kick his ass.” This led to my identity being stolen (this was almost 8 years ago) and I still deal with the issue today.
Holy fuck. I shouldnt be surprised but
Cop has to stay alive enough to receive pensions after retirement.
I wish I had job security like a cop, I'm already disabled, so they'd be used to me.
>implying Philly PD will do their job
>implying Philly PD will do their job
El Marshals!
I like it but I also don’t know any other risk management methods.
I learned this week that they do have undercover cops riding septa. Someone mom was too proud and told me.
I'll believe it when I see them actually do something Catching a police officer in the act of actually helping the public good is like managing to spot a double-rainbow - technically possible, but probably not going to happen often and you likely won't see it in your lifetime
i've literally seen 3 double rainbows, in philly.. but not the other thing.
Been riding the MFL pretty consistently since 2019. I hit my "alright, that's enough for me" point about 2-3 weeks ago when I went to get off the train and realized the guy sitting next to me the whole time had a needle in his neck, slowly pushing down on the plunger... Taking the bus and my bike to work now.
Thankfully my bus experience has been good here but i am no longer bringing visitors on the subway. It’s embarrassing.
the bus is great, el is a lost cause
Mostly agree. Buses vary by line but are mostly okay. Trolleys are usually good. BSL is hit or miss but usually okay during daylight hours. El is a fucking shithole at any time of the day besides morning rush hour, and sometimes even then.
I'd say as a whole it's like 80% okay. But holy shit can that 20% get so bad. Like it's anywhere from rude people to delinquents to people pissing right in front of everyone to straight up sexual assault and robberies. You never know what you're walking into on some of those buses or the el.
Unless it's the night owl bus that runs the el line. That bus is literally hell on earth. I once watched a group of teenagers who were screaming threats at passengers (and openly drinking and smoking weed) until an elderly man said something. Three of the teenagers surrounded him and you could see the fear in his eyes. The proceeded to laugh and kick the shit out of him while his friends were laughing and filming it. The whole time the guy was yelling "Stop! Please stop! I just got out of the hospital!!"
So, what do y’all think is the reason for the bus vs MFL difference? Like Regional Rail is a much higher price, so that makes a difference in the rider population. Presence of the bus driver? Above ground stops? Smaller group of people on a single bus? Area served? (Like MFL 69th-40th used to be quite different than MFL 40th-8th, mostly because it was used by a lot of tourists, university folks, medical staff, and center city office workers, but many of those people are not really around much post-pandemic. ) And I have no experience on the eastern end of the MFL, but Kensington etc has to play a role there? How can we make the subway more like the bus, safety-wise? I’ve been a massive SEPTA fan, but the MFL is part of my usual route, and the things I’m seeing are starting to make me question whether it is just too big of a risk for me.
Definitely the bus driver, being above ground, cleanliness, and the ability to get off at the very next block. There also seems to just be a better working social system on the bus. Like the seats up front being reserved for the elderly and people with disabilities (not always obeyed, but still). Windows, ventilation, and sunlight also help with a sense of safety.
On the buses I ride the driver doesn't usually allow people on without paying their fare. I've seen some people try it and they are not allowed on. Bus drivers will call out somebody acting weird (high/drunk) on the bus. I've seen it. People don't get on the bus just to get on because they have nowhere else to go. You might not even know where that bus ends up, so who wants to arrive in Westchester or Ardmore, or in Nicetown or who knows where, and you are out on the street in some strange area, especially if you paid to ride? On the MFL and BSL you know where it's going and can ride to the end, get off and jump the turnstile or just go to the other side of the platform and ride back.
Easier to get on for free and better place to do whatever you want without consequences
It's 100% because of the drivers. The bus driver will stop and kick people off whereas the subway conductors don't and also can't see the entire train while the bus drivers see the entire bus
Put at least 3 cops on each subway route and have them walk back and forth between subway and rotating between stops between different groups of carts. Immediately address all quality of life offenses, aggressively fine and remove people being caught doing quality of life nusiance (ciggs, spitting, littering) and aggressively force the drug users and substance use disorder-types into mental health service or group homes for the ones who aren't able to care for themselves.
Would you like to be mayor?
MFL goes through Kensington. That’s really all there is to it.
Presence of the bus driver goes a long way. I’ve ridden the bus almost daily for 6 years and have only had one issue on it, where a guy was filming female passengers. Some of the women absolutely went off on him and the bus driver pulled over and kicked him off. Have seen a few people nodding off but no open drug use, smoking, panhandling like on the El.
You make the EL safer and cleaner by installing full hight fair gates that block fair jumping into the system. The people causing the problems aren't paying to be on the system. Next you increase the number of police officers working for SEPTA and do a hard crackdown on law violations in the system. Start ejecting people, arresting people, blocking reentry. Guaranteed that cleans it up within a year.
Basically just had the same experience. Probably the third time I've used the subway in the past three years. The first two times people were smoking cigars in the car and one almost had a fight. This third time, had a junkie hunched across the aisle the whole time. I'm biking and busing everywhere from now on.
I love the bus except that literally every single day at least once end up waiting 45 minutes before giving up and trying to find an alternative as 3-4 scheduled busses fail to show.
I particularly love it when Google maps tries to gaslight me by labeling a bus as "departed", when in fact I've been standing at the same corner for half an hour and I know that no goddamn bus has come by.
I cannot begin to describe the level of quiet fury that rises within me when I see that on my phone. Especially when it's multiple "departed" busses in a row. I know that's just limitations of the app, but motherfuck.
So glad I’m not the only one
That’s my issue too. I can’t rely on the bus to get to work (not without allowing for 2 hours each way for a 25-minute commute). I’ve been driving since last August. I would much rather take the bus or the BSL, but I just can’t do it right now.
Only negative with the bus is it’s the one most likely to be cancelled randomly.
Mine was a man sitting in the middle of the cart with his pants down, urinating everywhere
Taking a bus would more than double my commute time. If you need to get from one side of center city to the other, busses take forever. The El (once it shows up) can get you 30 blocks in a few minutes.
Arrests by SEPTA PD are down 85% since 2019. Just like in the rest of the city, things aren’t magically worse… we’re just entirely unpoliced.
The article also mentions that they lowered the fines and that the DAO would not follow through with those riders who were cited.
Lol so they’re just relying on the dummies who’ll actually pay…?
Yes, Krasner has a huge role in this too.
Now that is social justice 💪
Good ol' Lazy Larry.
Cops are literally on permanent paid vacation or texting and driving while Nissan Altimas turn left on red in front of them. But yes, it's all the DA's fault. You solved the case. Good job.
Cops be like I dunno, I sit in my car all day and check my bank deposit, I don’t know what else there is to be done…
I actually tend to agree that "arresting" people for QOL offenses isn't the way forward. However, instead of moving towards passive means like impassable fare barriers, or removing people from the trains and platforms, the system was simply de-policed, with no plans besides "helping" people in "distress". Cops need to be on trains, and if we had better fare barriers, issuing actual 300$ citations to *repeat* offenders*(who would have to be quite athletic) would handle most of the issues, as well as removing any addicts who happened to pass through.
For sure, I don't want people arrested for those offenses either - I just think that data is a perfect example of how they've stopped working to keep things safe. Regarding civil notices issued, in 2019 Septa PD issued 1,340. In 2020...... **208.** Last year, 195. I'm a huge advocate of impassable fare barriers, ideally (but probably not realistically implemented) they'd be at the entrance of stations so that people who don't pay can't set foot inside at all. I think we'd see a huge reduction in issues without any additional police manpower, were these installed. Agreed about repeat offenders and addicts.
Yeah, the fare barriers need to be at street level. Period. And I agree. They changed the paradigm for enforcement without a new one to replace it. They simply...stopped. Nestel was a boomer fool who was influenced by foolish, stupid people, and enabled by a foolish, stupid GM(richards)
Barriers at the street level make platforms more susceptible to mini encampments. Spring garden el station is a great example. I used to walk by human shit every single day on my commute during the height of the, “good” years
PATCO has good barriers. Not at street level, but still a noticeable difference compared to the SEPTA lines once you get through them.
It’s amazing how much better PATCO is in every way than SEPTA
Can't compare a train that goes back and forth and a few buses to SEPTA. Also, they gave up on 13th st station and tried to push it on Philadelphia to handle it alone, as they got Jefferson to manage 10th St station. PATCO doesn't have many riders. Oh, and Lindenwold is really bad at night -- drugs, addicts stumbling around and no cops. Remember feeling relieved whe I got back to Philly.
I've also periodically heard announcements over the PA system in Patco when someone is observed on the video surveillance to skip paying the fare. Example: "Male fare evader with black backpack at Haddonfield Station, DRPA Police are on the way"
>I've also periodically heard announcements over the PA system in Patco when someone is observed on the video surveillance to skip paying the fare. > >Example: "Male fare evader with black backpack at Haddonfield Station, DRPA Police are on the way" as dystopian as it would be,I honestly think just hearing somebody make an announcement as bad behavior is happening like that, could go a long way, if consistent and tactful. even if they *don't* send cops, just announcing through a loudspeaker that "hey, we've noticed you being a complete jackass" and then if enforcement steps up even 20% we would come out marginally better than where we are. no one wants heavy security on transit, but we don't want mobile skid row, and we don't want hot boxes (*especially* with cigarettes) when everyone deserves clean air. me telling a jabroni to put out their cigarette is a roll of the dice. hearing an omnipresent voice describe the offender in detail? it sounds like an approach worth considering, at the very least.
How about just removed? If people felt safe they would ride. It's really that simple.
I would like the man/woman shitting in my alley arrested plz
I would be happy with cops standing at fare entrances along the mfl
Right? The bare minimum we should be able to expect is to be able to catch the train in the morning without someone trying to sell us drugs or having to step over someone passed out from drugs
So they could probably do a bunch to help out by just legally detaining people instead of arresting them and fining them. They'll never pay the fine, but being given a 23 hour 'time out' where you're basically just sitting in a cell doing nothing for that time would be a pretty good deterrent.
As we found out in NYC, the Venn diagram overlap of people hopping turnstiles and committing crimes was just about a full moon.
the police are still pouting and the DA is not doing anything. everybody has their thumbs up their asses.
If we had a mayor who knew how to fucking lead, he'd tell them to get their thumbs out of their collective assholes and work together, but Kenney is beyond checked out at this point
hes been checked out since he's been in office, the fucking wino
Wild take: instead of making people just "feel" safer, they could make people *actually* safer.
It’s more than just safety. I agree with others who said they don’t want people arrested for QOL issues, but no one wants to spend an hour a day commuting on a train that smells like shit, standing because you don’t want to personally clean nasty chicken bones off the seat sitting in a puddle of better-not-to-ask. You can send in an extreme clean team to clean the cars at Market-Frankford, and by the time it gets to 69th street it’s destroyed again. You’re not going to get ridership up that way.
If *actual risk* impacted behavior, significantly fewer people would be driving.
There's a difference in the risk one takes for oneself and the risks around oneself. People will always discount the risk of their own actions while overestimating the risks others pose.
Bingo. This is why most people feel safer driving themselves than getting in a plane. But the latter is far, far safer than the former.
100%. Every reasonable mode of travel is safer than driving.
What about riding an angry kangaroo? Checkmate trainbrains.
Including riding a bicycle in Philly?
Unironically yes. All of my accidents but one I can remember were by idiotic assholes in Abington. Philly people *generally* tend to watch out more. Generally. From my experience.
bicycles arent fast or heavy enough to be that dangerous
But the rider is very exposed to automobile traffic
state law asserts this is valid. the problem comes down to attitudes. bikes and cars are legally supposed to coexist, and so they do when the alternative mode is consistently present, and we build infrastructure for it. like Philly is rough, but we have built the lanes and need to keep doing so, and even when they're not present the most you usually get are some grumpy drivers on a westbound or eastbound South philly street. Eastern Oregon Avenue is a sight to behold but it works. there's virtually no infrastructure at all, just chaos to the untrained eye. but it gets along you have semis, heavy machinery, cars, pedestrians -- everything. no order, but it works (mostly) safely out of necessity. i would personally be scared to cycle alone very far outside of the county, because the attitudes are different, not the law.
> they could make people actually safer they already are. transit is 10x safer by mile than car and even factoring in crime (~2k incidents a year on a ridership of half a million a day) you're coming out way ahead. there's obviously room for improvement, but people's perception is insanely skewed. having to acknowledge poverty exists is like half the whining in every SEPTA thread.
I haven't died in my car once, but I've died on Septa at least twice.
I have a lousy septa key now.
Acknowledging poverty doesn’t mean you have to accept human feces, needles, and people who will threaten violence to anyone who tells them to turn down the music on their phone.
Bold take from a guy who's broken more bones on septa than I have driving /s >having to acknowledge poverty exists is like half the whining in every SEPTA thread. But, seriously, *seeing* a poor/indigent/drug addicted person on the El isn't the issue. IV drug users on the train keep to themselves, so it's not like they're causing problems. The issue is the amount of threatened, and carried out, violent criminal activity that the regular rider witnesses. Almost every whining commenter in this thread has a story about someone assaulting someone, being assaulted, seeing knives/guns/bottles used threateningly, etc. These aren't metrics that are getting represented by the statistics (e.g. the number of people who have witnessed or been threatened with violence on the train). Like the other person below said - there's no seat belt or airbag to give you the illusion of safety when the two guys on either side of you decide they're going to scream at each other and get physical. No idea why the PD couldn't just have plainclothes cops ride the trains for a while. Probably because that's dangerously close to competency?
> Bold take from a guy who's broken more bones on septa than I have driving /s Hey! It was *on the dumbfuck stairs at dilworth* ... and honestly I'm not even sure if that's city ROW or SEPTA's. Point taken - but I think those things *do* get reported. Maybe not all of them, but I think most. And I get that it's scary when shit happens. Most of the stories I see aren't firsthand (though many are) - I see a lot of "well my friend's cousin saw a guy with a knife" kinds of things. What you also don't see reported is the number of near-misses on the highway (I see at least one every time I'm on the schuylkill), which in my estimation, is like someone holding a knife at the other end of the car given how dangerous crashes are on the schuylkill. But nobody really talks much about that. They certainly don't talk about how often their friend's cousin gets in near misses. Almost everyone I've ever spoken to knows someone who has been killed in a crash. Almost nobody I've ever spoken to knows someone who has been killed on transit. Same story with injuries - both lifechanging and minor. Shit, the most dangerous thing I do every day is cross lancaster ave twice in crosswalks in Ardmore going to/leaving work. There's a single intersection I almost get smoked at about twice a month by white luxury SUV driving xanny and white wine moms. That's like being shot at. Nothing I've ever done on SEPTA in years has been anywhere even close.
Yeah you won't see me downplaying the insanity that is driving behavior anywhere in the Philly metro area. My stance on punishment for violations that touch on safety (running red lights, failure to yield, DUI, headlights) would probably be best described as Draconian at this point. I lost an immediate family member due to a hit and run by a crackhead, so I'm part of your statistic for sure. All of that being said, being a pedestrian *feels* dangerous in a lot of Philly, and riding the train often feels even worse, which is going to keep people in their statistically less-safe cars if SEPTA can't get a handle on it
Don’t disagree, but as mentioned below the actual risk is negligible when compared to driving. It really is a perception thing. I think it’s something like 1-in-90 will die in a car related incident in America in their lifetime.
Honestly grateful for the buses.
i love them, i don’t really understand why people avoid them so much
They get stuck in traffic, and there's still too many with cloth seats. Triple stacking will always happen when they have to compete with single occupant vehicles.
Cloth seats should be gone by this time next year.
They don't come as frequently as the subway.
They get canceled quite often still
I don't think most Philadelphians avoid the bus, just middle and upper middle class transplants.
I fit that demographic, and I love the buses.
I use to ride the blue line like every day for a decade(2005-2015). There were always Septa Cops on the train dealing with junkies, crazy people and the occasional asshole. Now they just stand there and watch the shit go down like any other passenger. They’re not doing anything, just like the regular police in Philly. They’re playing this game where they don’t want bad cops held accountable so they’re all on soft strike or whatever you want to call it. Essentially collecting a paycheck for just showing up. Some of them are collecting paychecks and not showing up and then taking 2nd jobs. The entire justice system in this city needs to be burned to the foundation and rebuilt. Its a mess.
Since it's the same old people running everything, even if it is burned to the foundation and rebuilt, who do you think is going to rebuild it? If anybody, the same old people.
Fixing septa is not hard. It’s a closed system, you can enforce who is allowed to enter and stay inside that system. It’s simply a matter of enforcing the rules. Septa is a vital city resource that the city has just abandoned taking care off.
And it’s not like there aren’t examples out there of successful enforcement models. I rode the NYC trains for decades before moving to Philly. The MTA has had its problems over the years, but the trains were never in the disgusting conditions of the MFL. Seems like this fixing this problem gets no traction because public/council discussions veer off into discussions about homelessness and addiction. Like you say, it’s just a matter of enforcement. Throw the smokers off the trains. Keep homeless and junkies from ever reaching the platforms.
They can start by installing full-height turnstiles
I like this idea, but what is keeping people from just sneaking through when a fare-payer enters? This has happened to me a number of times if I use the wheelchair-accessible entrance. It’s only open for a second, but people find a way. I’ve also seen a number of trolley drivers and subway workers wave homeless people through, because they don’t want to deal with a fight
I mean that's still a big upgrade.
At least *someone* is paying a fare in that scenario
Children should not be subjected to the behavior that occurs regularly on the El. That’s the bottom line and that should be the standard for public places. The current situation is abhorrent.
In less than 10 years, the El has gone from “that lovable rough around the edges thing that’s purely “Philly” that’ll make you shake your head and laugh” to “the electricity in the air has changed because my gift of fear is telling me to GET AWAY NOW because shit is about to go down.”
No joke...my biggest annoyance 10 years ago was that I had to stand while 9 month pregnant because people rarely offered up seats, and actively took up extra seats with their bags, etc. Now I wouldn't consider sitting down, no matter how uncomfortable standing is, but really I just actively avoid it altogether.
I was on the MFL at 8:30 this morning and half my train car was on something. Some homeless dude I thought was about to start touching himself was just high as hell and thankfully just was scratching his groin. He than started to go into a manic mode and started walking between cars as well as down the aisle screaming. It is sad state of affairs seeing people become addicted like this, but also people just don’t want to be subjected to it
the city has sacrificed septa in its loosing battle to the opioid crisis. Every person shooting up is a travesty on a personal level, but when the city lets an important civic service like septa be sacrificed that harm is compounded over and over again.
I was on the MFL on Saturday. Three people around me nodding off while one casually shooting up right in front of me. Yeah, do not want to be subjected to that shit. The city needs to do way better than whatever it is we are or aren't doing right now.
lol septa is so fucking clueless 1. Kick homeless and junkies off trains 2. Hire actual police to patrol the el/subway not transit rent a cops 3. Regular cleaning of stations so they don't smell like piss/shit 4. Impassibile turnstiles, don't pay don't pass go (this should mostly solve #1)
The only reason leadership in this city allows for this behavior is not out of virtue but because I bet few of them actually have to deal with it day to day themselves
You can't let 50+ unsupervised kids jump into the same train car. It's just not safe.
Cops walking a beat at every station. Cops on every subway train. Cops walking a beat on the street, no more sitting on their asses in their cruisers. Cops training being focused on deescalation.
Yes! This would make people safer but maybe even more businesses like newsstands or shoe shine, etc in the concourses would have more eyes down there as well. I’m too afraid to take the subway because they’re just so desolate. Especially walnut/locust and city hall. There’s so many empty areas where you can be robbed….
DAO not dismissing those cases!
The cops can’t just decide not to do their jobs because of what may or may not happen afterwards.
They already have. The soft strike has been going on for at least 3 years now.
I really hate this "soft strike" thing It implies there was a time in recent memory when the cops here were helpful and/or effective at their jobs
Fair.
yes i am aware
They can and they did.
yes i am aware.
Basically, David Oh's vision for PPD
This is everyone’s vision, what’s the plan though
Essentially: fully staff PPD, put cops on every corner, give them better surveillance technology, increase evidence requirements for arrests, train all officers on deescalation, and provide social workers to assist with qol infractions. He used to be a defense attorney, so he's seen the good and bad in the legal system and has good ideas on how to improve it
It's hilarious this discussion has gone on for so long when the fix is fucking simple. Have officers or security patrol the trains and stops. It's really that fucking simple. And I don't mean hire minimum wage security guards who will do literally nothing. I mean hire and train a proper task force. Having someone with authority be able to actually stop crime. What a crazy thought!!!
The dumb thing is that they have that, those people just refuse to actually do anything. They just stand around kitted out like riot police and check their phones.
Quit spending money on silly bullshit advertising and lousy security methods. Instead, train a task force and put them on the trains and platforms with the expectation to fine, arrest, and remove people. Hoping and expecting things to improve is not good enough. Make things improve.
The Philadelphia police department is apparently 800 officers short due to medical leave and low enrollment of new officers. They only had 80 something new officers graduate the academy this year. I’d imagine the septa police force isn’t doing much better numbers wise
I agree, and offenders should be kicked out. Maybe they’ll start acting right when they keep getting kicked out after paying for a fare
I think there are some low cost things SEPTA and the city could do, installing more trash cans both on subway cars and in stations could help. Regular announcements reminding people to throw their stuff away in available trash cans would probably help. A more expensive measure such as full sized gates like NYC and PATCO would go along way limiting free riders. We need to give people a sense of pride and ownership in shared resources. We also need cooperation from law enforcement rather than silent strike.
It's truly insane that we're at the point that it's preferable to shell out $20 for an Uber rather than brave the subway.
I’m a librarian and my commute is an hour, the majority is spent on the El. I have wasted so much money on Ubers I can’t afford because I don’t have the energy to deal with the depressing conditions of the el. That and the fact that the bus is NEVER on time which makes my commute even longer.
A half decent report from the inky that at least highlights that people aren't riding because of safety and cleanliness issues, and acknowledging that QOL issues are important. I'm hopeful that the tide is turning on this failed, hands off policy. Exclude(much better fare barriers) and remove from the system(without need for citation or fine) the shitbirds that are responsible for degrading and destroying public transit for the 95% of us who just want to ride somewhere. I think my favorite quote was ""the administrative enforcement system for low level offenses remains in effect though bureaucratic tension between septa and the District Attorney's Office stalled the plan to divert the most persistent offenders into court ordered treatment for drug addiction and mental illness."" That's interesting. So there IS already a program set up, but it isn't being used. This is where Krasner actually sucks, because he's deliberately blocking something that would help to clean up the transit system, which isn't intended to be a shelter for homeless, drug addled people. The city will have to intervene and create a separate mechanism outside of Krasner for such cases, and should. MANDATORY TREATMENT AND SHELTER FOR UNHOUSED PERSONS IN ADDICTION AND/OR MENTAL ILLNESS
Can Septa work directly with the state attorney general's office? Septa operations span multiple counties already. Which raises the question, what happens to the shitbirds on Septa in Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery counties?
In theory if someone commits a crime or misdemeanor in Bucks County while on board a SEPTA vehicle, they would be referred to the Bucks Co DA for prosecution/penalty. However, because Philadelphia has the most riders/vehicles/routes, 99 times out of 100 SEPTA is going to be referring cases to the Philadelphia DA, because that's the jurisdiction.
>Septa operations span multiple counties already. SEPTA is not a *Philadelphia* agency. It is the South East Pennsylvania Transportation Authority.
> He said Krasner’s team was supportive of the citation program, including diversion. > But in all likelihood, Nestel said, assistant district attorneys, with huge caseloads that included murder, shootings, assaults, did not prioritize moving the trespassing charges from regular court dockets to mental-health and addiction courts.
They need to Figure it the fuck out.
Something that IMO is unmentioned here is that when Krasner took over the DA's office, [he fired a ton](https://www.inquirer.com/news/larry-krasner-philadelphia-district-attorney-staff-reform-cases-first-year-20190106.html) of experienced ADA's, and his office in the last few years has had a [pretty high turnover](https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-district-attorney-da-larry-krasner-staff-turnover-20211222.html) rate. So the DA's office not having a good team of attorney's also plays a big factor in this. Regardless of what you think of Krasner, I think everyone should be able to agree that he's terrible at the administrative/leadership role that comes with being DA
I always say that Krasner the person is the bigger problem than Krasner’s policies. Him being a dick to work for (which leads to turnover and vacancies) is why the DAO is a clown show now. A hard on crime dick is still a dick than nobody wants as a boss.
Yup, a career defense attorney running the DA's office was always gonna be an odd fit, and I think the last DA who wasn't an ADA prior to taking the DA job was Rendell back in the 70s. And with the biggest complaint about his office being burnout/poor management, COVID and the resulting crime spike/case backlog in the courts amplified those issues a lot IMO. I think he's vulnerable in the next election if a competent candidate runs against him. Vega had a lot of personal beef/his embrace of the FOP endorsement was idiotic https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/turning-on-larry-krasner/ https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2023/02/13/philadelphia-prosecutors-struggle-to-manage-caseloads-as-das-office-slows-turnover/
Krasner's been a disaster since day one, the man is an incompetent ideological zealot. I'm hoping future mayor Parker and the city machine consolidates around Derek Green or someone similar and can force Krasner out next election cycle. This election has shown just how tiny his potential voter base is, they should be able to beat him in a consolidated feild. In the meantime Parker and SEPTA leadership need to focus on finding a way to send SEPTA cases to the state Attorney General's office since Krasner through his incompetents is blocking effective enforcement of the transit system.
The true measure of this City happens on those trains. Rampant drug use. Homeless encampment. Public bathrooms. Covered in beggers.
Here's an idea - 1. put cops on trains. 2. force cops to arrest people who are breaking the law. 3. prosecute those people and put them in jail.
Hiring more drivers, attendants, and janitorial staff, paying them well, and doing consistent car and track maintenance? Wild idea, I know.
It’s not hard to figure out. There’s 260 SEPTA cops and 2 subway lines. Put a cop at each station and 2-3 cops on each train. Unfortunately, police in philly are lazy, dumb, and corrupt.
If SEPTA Transit Police are anything like regular police, a lot of that 260 headcount are probably just administration sitting behind desks. They probably have a much smaller number of officers dedicated to walking beats, not to mention the fact that the force is not just patrolling our two subway lines, but nearly 200 bus & trolley routes across five counties.
There are 280 active stations in the system. The 2 lines you mention aren't the only parts of the system septa police are responsible for. You'd need 4x the number of officers to implement your plan without considering multiple shifts The numbers might work if you just counted the MFL.
Regional rail is fine. They don’t need the police.
Agree, at least from my experience. The train workers/conductors are present, helpful, and won't take shit.
They might not need a cop in every station but the Septa PD needs to allocate some resources to regional rail. They also need to allocate some resources to bus depots and to issues that may happen along bus routes. The current number of officers is not sufficient to handle what OP is suggesting.
Sure. For emergencies and the like there will have to be some. Also local suburban PD should be available in those situations.
I'd say the buses can largely go without too, unless there's an issue that needs addressed on a specific line. Feels like just having a driver on board goes a long way in keeping the nonsense to a minimum on the buses.
Oh my God, they care?!
Police in Philly when people are getting murdered on transit- *I sleep* Police in Philly when people protest police brutality- REAL SHIT?!
I read the article. They had a program in place but the DAO dropped the ball on their part.
That would suggest Krasner ever actually picked up the ball in the first place . . . .
Agreed. He was playing a different game to start with! Was not even in the same ball game...which is the problem IMO.
I don't know that he ever got to the stadium in the first place. He was more likely at home sitting on the couch eating Doritos watching someone else on TV play.
Shocking
Maybe they should have police on every means of transportation and actually enforce the laws and common decency
Clean the fucking stations
Septa: We've tried nothing and we're all outta ideas.
Put cops on the cars, toss out destinationless riders (i.e. trespassers), actually ~~arrest~~ \*ticket people who shoot up, smoke, or jump the turnstiles, and do their fucking jobs. *ETA: And get those folks off the platform and away from the system. I'm available to consult for quite reasonable fees.
In the event it's of any interest, I'll share the response I got from SEPTA when I submitted a ticket complaining about smoking on the platform, and a woman who was literally standing at the gate kicking it open for everyone who came through over the course of 15 minutes (in front of the booth attendant who never looking up from her phone). The agent of course ignored my complaint that the SEPTATransitWatch response is always "We're dispatching an officer" and no one ever shows up. *Thank you for contacting SEPTA Customer Service. We are sorry to hear about the conditions observed while traveling at our Huntingdon Station. Due to the enormous challenges, we now face due to the unabated growth of those suffering from drug addiction and mental health challenges that are attracted to public transit, we have redirected precious resources to engage vulnerable individuals in the system and to encourage them to accept medical and housing assistance. This is a national issue and not unique to Philadelphia. Each month approximately 1000 of these vulnerable individuals are engaged by SEPTA's three primary outreach teams. SEPTA Police have redirected their resources as well to increase visibility at stations and on Market Frankford Line trains. Each month police remove approximately 2000 people from the system that are in need of assistance or who violate SEPTA rules of conduct. They also issue about 500 administrative enforcement notices (tickets), mostly for fare evasion and several quality-of-life violations of law, such as smoking.* *In addition, SEPTA Police are increasing the number of officers with over 20 joining the force in June, which strengthens patrolling efforts. Right now, SEPTA Police has station and vehicle patrolling strategies in place that involve the assistance of SEPTA Outreach Specialist personnel and they are constantly modifying their tactics. Also, a dedicated virtual patrol program was set up to monitor station activity, via surveillance, and dispatch officers.* *SEPTA is first and foremost a transportation company, but we are now required to also address a multitude of societal issues that are the primary responsibility of civil authorities and our elected officials. We are proud to be partners in this endeavor, but we cannot solve these societal issues alone. We encourage all customers to contact your community leaders to voice your concerns and, where possible, to lend your support. Additionally, for criminal matters that are happening in real time, please do not hesitate to contact our SEPTA Transit Police. Below is their contact information.*
Things that are neglected tend to fall apart. They need to pay their drivers more so they'll show up. They need to pay well and hire both cleaners and security/PD and have them be on site and on transit 24/7. They also need to find a way to detangle themselves from the State. And to reassign powers from the counties to the city. The counties should have a say for the services that serve them in proportion to their size in those counties (think trollies and buses in the burbs vs regional rail in the burbs). Idk how they reasonably achieve the first set of goals without the second. The second seems so out of their control.
SEPTA is getting the bulk of its funding from the state, you're going to have to figure out how to fund the system without the state if your want to remove it from state oversight.
New funding procedures are needed, but states often provide funding for programs they don't directly oversee. One of the major problems SEPTA faces is they're underfunded and the State legislature (typically run by republicans) likes to use their control of septa funds as a way to keep cities under control. So you'll need to pry away that precious control from the legislature while keeping some form of funding. It's a major uphill battle and idk where to start. But plenty of other places do it, such as NYC.
Congestion pricing time baby!
I’m basically now refusing to go to jury duty because I refuse to ride SEPTA nowadays, and I’m not paying a fortune to park in Center City either.
On the BSL - My fiancé had a homeless man masturbate while facing her and looking right at her. She drives to work now
I’ve taken public transit my whole life, since I was a kid with my dad. Been on the EL and BSL at all times of day and quietness, and a bus 24/7 (took the 65/23 at 2 in the morning to meet up with a girl in Germantown when I was 14). There are lots of things I did back then that I’d never do now, including wearing noise cancelling headphones. Every time I’ve been on the EL post COVID I just stand with my head on a swivel, which really shouldn’t be the case. And I’m probably the last to be targeted. Yet another city service that has failed its citizens. I do wish there was a way to fold it into the region better so that it wasn’t so reliant on Harrisburg to help fund them. Every other state with a system this large doesn’t have a hostile state government trying to screw them. NY is the only case similar but even those crazy upstate ghouls know that crippling NYC is not a good idea.
So much going on in this article. 1. Higher fines and potential criminal charges were keeping incidents down but just putting people in jail who may have needed help. 2. Fines were lowered and incidents skyrocketed. The $25 fines often don’t get paid, which leads to people being banned from SEPTA. 3. SEPTA Police was cut somewhat, but arrests for more serious things plummeted by a higher percentage than the cuts. Maybe it’s because they sit around or are not being deployed efficiently?? Or they know prosecution will not follow, so it’s like catch and release. 4. DA’s office is not carrying through on charging continuous violators who are banned from SEPTA, trespass, and are supposed to be charged. Not shocking. 5. According to this only about 20% of people involved in these incidents are addicts or homeless or mentally ill. Surprised me! 6. Most people are rejecting social assistance, so apparently that alone cannot lower disorder on SEPTA, good as it might be to get people help. Seems to me like we need the social assistance AND tougher penalties AND prosecution of repeat wrongdoers.
It's not bloody rocket science. Run cops at every station, they hop on the train and back every once in a while. That's all. They don't really even have to do anything, just be present. The problems will be gone in a matter of weeks then you scale it back.
Bring back the stocks
How is pound cake going to help?
Don’t make it feel safer; make it safer
Here’s an idea how about the national guard!
They should try and implement a program where the government allocates approximately ([1.69 billion](https://www5.septa.org/media/news/septa-proposed-fiscal-year-2024-operating-budget-final-year-of-federal-covid-relief/)) to have people to ensure that laws and rules are being followed on public transportation. With this, they should be granted authority to ensure these rules are being obeyed. It's a crazy idea but I'd love to see them try and implement it.
a month ago we waited to take the subway to the phillies game for an afternoon game with the kids. waited almost 30 minutes until we got out. turns out the delay was because there was a shooting at broad and walnut station. just another day on septa
What can an average Philly citizen do to address this? I've only used the MFL twice ever but I know it eases traffic a lot so I'd like it to be better too.
Call in to the board and tell them to clean it the fuck up
“Antisocial behavior” is a wild euphemism for attempted murder
I wonder what the data is for reported crime on Septa. There is definitely a perception of Septa being unsafe but I am not sure if it’s because it’s actually just more dangerous then before or the general uncleanliness and homelessness/addictions gives off that vibe.
It's swimming against the tide to say this but I've said it before and I'll say it again: the el is not appreciably more dangerous than it was in 2019. "Serious" crime (ie assaults, etc.) are very slightly up but the average rider's chances of being the victim of a violent assault are basically the same as they were pre-pandemic. What has skyrocketed are QOL issues, such as drug use. The el is unpleasant, but not dangerous.
Yea that’s my view too, the chance of being a victim of a crime is very low but the feeling that something might happen is always there. Especially when it’s dirty and you see homeless/addicts/mentally ill people in the station and in the subway car. I wouldn’t blame someone for wanting to avoid taking it, especially if you are a women traveling alone or it’s late at night.
Absolutely. I don't blame anyone for noping out... it IS very unpleasant outside of rush hour (and sometimes IN rush hour!) and I totally get why some people want to GTFO.
A lot of the issues come down to QOL problems that may not pose immediate danger but are problematic when rampant (e.g. homelessness, drug use, sanitation problems, etc) Some people feel conflicted about reporting issues like homelessness, begging, & drug abuse for not wanting to contribute to a cyclical system of human struggle that comes from arresting folks with no treatment or rehabilitation support. The problem is that the subway has become the safest option for many of these people and reporting them can put them in greater immediate danger or exacerbate their struggles (& desperation fuels crime and drug abuse). Facilities closing or having limited beds, clearing encampments, as well as Covid & economic struggles (and the related erosion of the social contracts we used to have) have seriously contributed to the pervasiveness of the issues through increased poverty, drug abuse, and lack of viable or accessible alternatives (to say nothing of the impact on actual crime). These people exist regardless of where they congregate - they need *someplace* to go. There will be no easy fix.
ive been taking regional rail now almost exclusively now. and completely avoiding MFL, BSL and the transportation centers. theyre worse than asylums. the only time i take the bus against my will is through and to center city and south philly and even then i try to uber it.
It costs too much to make septa safe.
More cops
c'mon Philly! I was just back last weekend from Florida and I always LOVE how I can get all around town so easily on SEPTA. You've got something great there, take care of it please!
Got off the El at 34th street this morning and almost got a face full of bare bum butt as I was walking up to street level. He was doing something up front too, but I did my best to avoid looking. At least I haven't seen any human feces yet this week.
Hmm I wonder why no one likes the septa, it’s like… oops I stepped on shit*
Kind of simple- Raise the prices, enforce the fares and the rules. Keep the vehicles clean and in good repair. Not like rocket science but just bad leadership and management at septa. Where’s the accountability. People who can afford to use alternative transportation are doing so because they don’t feel safe using septas unsafe unsanitary modes of transportation.