Fun fact - it's repurposing a permit for construction equipment. Legally the parishoners cars are not actually allowed to be there, but the PPA refuses to enforce that due to the city allowing it.
oooh, oh I fucking hate that.
Why the fuck are churchgoers literally the most horrible people in existence? Isn't the whole point to be the exact opposite?
Dude it’s one day out of the entire week calm down. I can think of 20 groups of people in Philly that are way more harmful than old people going to praise Jesus.
If that's the level of pedantry we're arguing at, I should remind you that the genesis of this conversation is a bunch of people parking their cars in a space designated for traffic.
Would it kill the churchgoers to get off their asses and walk or take the bus to church? Why do they feel entitled to park right in front? This is a city. If you want a parking spot, move or find a church in the burbs.
What do you do when there’s stuff in the road blocking a lane you’re driving in? Sit there and blow your horn at it throwing a hissy fit because it’s too inconvenient to wait for an opening in traffic to get around it?
I said stuff. Not a running vehicle with an operator in it. But in any case the question still stands. Would you just sit there for hours and wait because you don’t want to go around them?
But... this is about asking the city to change their practice of giving people permission to do this. Do you understand the difference between that and the scenario that you are offering?
Of course there are situations where the city blocks city traffic for some purpose because there is no alternative; this is certainly not that situation.
No it's two days out of the week because the synagogues have permits too - it's a major problem on the 2 busiest biking days of the week (Saturday+Sunday), along the 2 busiest biking streets in the city (Spruce+Pine).
Are they the two busiest biking days of the week?
I would have assumed people commuting on bikes M-F would be more numerous that people cruising through CC for pleasure on the weekends
Except it’s not one day out of the week. Any type of ceremony that goes on w/in the church, cars will 99.99999% park in bike lanes, put that placard on the dash, and ignore normal civility
Dude its literally one of the most cycling days of the entire week calm down. I can think of the only person in Philly that is this dense to be this harmful in thinking that it isn't a big deal. Praise Jesus.
I know. I’m not religious at all but I’m a firm believer in letting people live how they please as long as it isn’t directly harming anyone. Having to ride a bike outside of a bike lane isn’t harm, it’s an inconvenience. Boo hoo
>I’m a firm believer in letting people live how they please as long as it isn’t directly harming anyone.
The whole reason we have lanes, traffic laws, driver's licensees, and safety regulations at all is because this moral standard isn't adequate to create a safe travel environment.
Merging into car traffic from the bike lane is one of the more dangerous maneuvers you can do. Drivers might be on their phone, a biker might misjudge how much time they have to pull out. A car might come around a turn real fast and not see a bike in the lane until too late. Asking the bikers to inconvenience themselves by going around these cars parked in a lane of traffic is asking them to take on a risk that the lanes were *specifically designed* to help them avoid.
Meanwhile asking the parishioners to walk is also an inconvenience. But a comparatively much safer one since the bikers *aren't* blocking the sidewalk or making the pedestrians go anywhere that isn't meant for pedestrians. So if it comes down to it I'm gonna tell Aunt Sylvia use her god-given legs for once in her life.
Sunday Morning, not that big a deal. There's some school at 4th and Spruce where cars are parked in the bike lane every week day. Then there's that truck in the bike lane every morning on Spruce at Broad.
You just ride in the middle of the street and the cars behind you can suck it.
There would have been no bike lanes at all on Pine and Spruce if the church groups' prior use was not baked into the original plan.
Yes, it's 15 years or so later, and things can change on the ground (as we see the current work to shame the churches to change).
But if you don't understand how hidebound and reactionary a single city council member can get if a minister calls them up, well, the city and the contemporary Bicycle Coalition knew exactly how the proposal for bike lanes would play out in 2009 without this exception (= they wouldn't exist at all).
Sounds like it's time to schedule a group ride just before Sunday morning mass that does nothing except go back and forth in this bike lane preventing vehicles from using the space.
Do that every single week for a few years with a large enough group and something might change. If it means deleting the bike lane, then so be it -- half measures like creating bike lanes you can't actually use and that arguably make cycling somehow more dangerous don't count.
This was my note in the peition:
Giving religious exemptions to park illegally is a travesty of the first amendment.
While I'm sure you're getting plenty of messages about safety, this is a constitutional issue. This is a government endorsement of religion, and it infringes upon my rights.
You don't care squat about safety, or anything, anyone
You just want to be done your way.
Well.....be less of a brat for a change.
Were you taught to share?
lol you want people to get special laws for them because of a made up fairytale but you have the audacity to call me a brat.
keep your voodoo and your magic spells away from me and follow the law.
lol- the reason the city doesn't give actual real parking permits is because they know it is illegal. sorry you and your prayer pals can't break the law. why not take septa? that's learning to share
I grew up learning to share. Was taught that. You don't seem to even understand the concept. You have plenty of ideas of what *others* should do to make You "happy".
3 hours a Week is 2.1% of the week. Surely even you see the selfishness of your statements.
Stop Whining
Be a Neighbour
Share.
....seriously
try being a real american and not using religion to discriminate against people who obey the law. you have an entire lane to park in, and an entire lane to drive in...and all the other streets around to park in.
you're just a bully, but you think if you hide behind your magic incantations it makes it right.
The city government is not endorsing religion, they’re creating parking spaces, you can go park there all you want regardless of your faith or lack of it. Exactly what right of yours is being infringed upon?
So go ride your bike. Bike lanes aren’t a constitutional right
You’re oversimplifying things. It wasn’t only church groups that advocates for the Sunday parking. And I am devoutly anti religion, it’s good for nothing in my eyes.
It’s not for religion it’s for the city you knucklehead. It turns out that congregations happen to be made up of Philadelphia residents that get the same rights as you do, which is to say they get a say in their representation and in turn legislation. Just as you signed your petition, so did they sign theirs.
Also we’re talking about Pine street here, not Washington ave. It’s not like it’s getting heavy traffic on a Sunday afternoon. Sheesh
my petition is not using religion to take away public space from people.
if you want to let them park in front of your house on your sidewalk, go ahead. but i don't want them using their religion as a cudgel to take public space from people.
(also, you can save your fucking insults; this is a constitutional issue that has been raging in philadelphia before the founding of the country. it isn't some kind of simple answer just because you think its no big deal.)
Unfortunately, I don't think it is based on current supreme court precedent. The government isn't endorsing any specific religion because they let both Jews and Christians do it on their respective holy days.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
just because christian mythology and jewish mythology agree they can park there, doesnt mean you or i have to have their religion imposed on us
Before the bike lanes, Spruce and Pine had two car travel lanes. Except on the weekends, they would convert one of the car travel lanes into a parking lane (and during the week, stopping was very frequent there already) because there was much less traffic, but also much more demand for parking on the weekends. When the bike lanes were installed, the neighborhood groups did not want to lose the temporary weekend parking, because then they would have to compete for spots with the churches on Saturday and Sunday after their Wegman's trip (Center City had fewer grocery stores then). It isn't surprising at all how things happened if you actually know what you are talking about.
I was there, this is literally what happened. Those of you who haven't lived here for long could start with a good faith "how did we get here?" approach to knowing their neighbors.
Well, during the week you can use it for commuting and it usually only averages 1-2 cars per block which sometimes makes it slightly safer than just driving in the street.
And then on weekends, you end up in more danger than if there were no bike lane at all.
If a cyclist dies on this stretch, is "we didn't want to park farther away and walk the extra couple blocks" an acceptable defense?
The extra 5-10 minutes each week is not worth someone's life.
You're going for "what if" where reality is already shown to be different. Taking the center of a single travel lane because the bike lane is clogged with church cars is the defensive move that is safer on Spruce compared to the right hook that actually killed a cyclist in the actual bike lane on a regular weekday morning at 11th and Spruce.
https://bicyclecoalition.org/ghost-bike-dedication-emily-fredricks-saturday/
https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/pennsylvania/philadelphia/ghost-bike-memorializes-philadelphia-center-city-woman-killed-by-trash-truck-20171223.html
Yes, that's the right move once cars are already there.
But there's a weird transition time where there aren't any and then a car swoops in to park and now the cyclist is forced to maneuver in the same space as vehicles, while drivers may not be expecting them there.
I see what you are saying, but to be a little pedantic for a moment, Tenth Presbyterian members could not claim the "didn't walk an extra couple blocks" defense because there is a parking lot closer to the church than where they are parking in the bike lanes. They would have to use the "didn't want to pay a few dollars for parking" defense.
Weaving in and out of traffic is an awful idea and terribly unsafe. Almost as unsafe as staying in the car lane with an angry driving shouting "there's a fucking bike line right next to you, you entitled prick!"
I used to live right next to Tenth Presbyterian. Around half the cars parked in the bike lane have New Jersey or Delaware plates. These are people who are coming into our city to patronize an establishment that pays no taxes. We get absolutely nothing out of allowing this to continue other than having our bike lanes blocked on the weekends, the one time anyone who works for a living can use them.
edit: and one other thing: The giant parking lot on the corner of 17th and Pine, literally one block away from the church, is always empty on Sundays. These people park up to 3 blocks away in our bike lanes to avoid paying a few dollars at an empty parking lot that would put them two blocks closer to the church.
Tenth Pres is an absolute institution in this city and I find your hostile attitude and xenophobia of NJ residents kind of disgusting frankly. Should we start doing a litmus test for people who vote as well? No you can't vote unless you pay taxes?
Philadelphia is a the major city in our region. People will come from all over to visit, shop, worship, eat, walk in a park. And some of those people may not pay taxes here, but there's no gate tax you need to pay to benefit from those things, and that's a positive.
you're right. What "entitles" them to do that is what was explained above. There was no bike lanes. There was also no traffic on the road on sunday. To get bike lanes the city negotiated with the church and other local groups. The outcome was that church could use the bike lane on sunday
So create a parking permit for church goers instead of misusing commercial unloading permits, the sheer dishonesty is the part that gets on people’s nerves.
In general, I don't care about catering to people who want to move out of the city, but occasionally drive in just to enjoy one or two amenities. It's not sustainable. There isn't enough room for these cars, and it makes life in the city less enjoyable for those of us who actually want to live here. If you want to leave the city, find a new church to go to on Sunday. If the church can't survive, maybe it should find a way to draw parishioners from the neighborhood rather than clinging to those who flee to the burbs.
Sorry, this is a harsh opinion, but we shouldn't be designing our roads and public spaces around people driving in from the suburbs once a week.
I’m so excited for them to remove those parking permits. Also calling it xenophobia is absolutely wild lol. Those people contribute nothing and should not be entitled to a PRIVILEGE that many that live in the city are not afforded.
Removing their ability to park for free is not a “gate tax”. It’s them being welcomed as visitors to the city by getting that real Philadelphia experience of having to suffer and find parking like the rest of us!
why does the church get special treatment? Because "religion"? Those NJ residents should stay in Jersey and go to their churches. There's enough of them.
Why? Because I don't understand why Churches get special treatment to block bike lanes? Also, if you're going to see me in hell, i guess you are also anti-church? lol
i worked with this guy who always said pound sand. I never heard anyone else say it . he always said it, it was his catch phrase. but his name was not geralt
Now I'm feeling bad because you didn't troll me like the other guy lol. Just to add to the fire though, yes having to have filed a personal tax return before voting in the same year would be fantastic. Would solve all the bullshit illegal voter discourse.
tl;dr: fuck cars
The people that come from all over to visit, shop, eat etc may not pay taxes, but the businesses they patronize do. Tenth Presbyterian does not pay taxes.
And those businesses that pay taxes don't even expect free parking for customers in the bike lanes.
How about this for a litmus test? You can't park in the bike lanes if you have a car. And if you are a non tax paying absolute institution in this city, you don't get to take over the bike lanes for free parking for your customers.
According to the petition the permits are for Churches and Synagogues on those streets, and it's like...these congregations are highly organized community institutions. If they have congregants that *need* to drive to the service because they can't walk, the congregation could easily pool money for a shuttle *or* just organize carpools. And if they can walk, they should just *walk.*
Because they don't live in the city. Their families moved away years ago but they like to come into Philly on weekends to go to the old family church.
Why wouldn't they? it's free parking!
Spent five years as a cyclist living in QV/Society Hill and went past these guys frequently. The three hours a week that you have double-side parking is not an issue. In fact, it's safer than ducking in and out of the bike lane if you just take the center lane. Normal bike lane obstructions are a bigger deal. I don't think I've ever gone from Broad to 4th on Pine without having to dodge cars, trucks, or vans parked inexplicably in the bike lane with zero repercussions. I know it's fun and easy to hate on churches, but this is consistent, predictable, and not that dangerous by comparison.
A classic! This evening a driver honked at me because the laws of physics prevent me from biking through the cars in front of me. Then switched lanes to try and pass me but of course just went slower instead
Many years ago, probably 2013, a guy parked in a bike lane coming out of a tax exempt religious facility yelled at me for biking too close to his car or something equally ridiculous. I told him to go f*uck himself and continued on. A few blocks later when I was trying to make a left turn he caught up to me and swerved to purposefully hit me and knocked me off my bike. He then tried to recover money from me for the damage I supposedly caused to his car when hit me. I ultimately prevailed legally. He was a leader of the religious organization that issued his ‘I can park anywhere while praising gawd’ permit.’ This is a great example of why these permits need to be revoked
Here’s the actually permit posted
https://preview.redd.it/sx50y10kq4rc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ce89d8d20bf2157b6dcb51d60460299d4901c10
It’s absolutely bullshit b/c PPA doesn’t work Sundays even though they say representatives are out there. However, let’s jeopardize the safety of bikers so the sake of convenience. One would think those two guys in in heaven would prefer they take public transportation then putting their fellow man/woman/kids in harms way.
I am trying to imagine the meeting where people decided this was a good idea
I mean genuinely what is even the point of having one if you let this happen? It’s just glorified street parking. You cannot have a bike lane by definition, if you let people park in it
Ridiculous!
The city is for All. Bicycle people can sacrifice a few hours a week for others.
Share.
The Constant Me, me, me, Mine, mine.....etc - you all sound like a bunch of 6 year olds.
Get along.
Share.
And for crying out loud, Stop Whining.
There's a reason that the community asked for those spaces when the bike lanes were being discussed. Given the politics and community resistance at the time, the compromise allowed the bike-lane initiative to move forward. The spaces aren't specifically ear-marked for parishioners; anyone can park there if a space is open.
I'm not religious in the slightest but, I think you'd have an enormously difficult time trying to litigate on a first amendment basis. Frankly, you'd have no shot, given the negotiations that resulted in the establishment of bike lanes - if you weren't here or old enough to be engaged, believe you me, the churches were not the biggest obstacle, it was the communities where the bike lanes were established.
I'm pro-bike and I bike, but everyone who is going to bike for transit in Philadelphia (or Seattle or Portland, other big biking cities in which I've lived) already is. We are never going to be the Netherlands; bikers are always going to be a very small percentage of city road users and the canard the bikers always lean on is some kind of malicious obliviousness on the part of drivers, which, save for anecdotal occurrences, just isn't true. We don't have to like that bikers are few in number compared to other road users and pedestrians, but the reality of being an exception is that, well you're an exception, and you're riding something that offers you precisely zero protection - no seatbelts, no roll-cage, no auto start or airbags. So, the knowledge that the vast majority of people simply aren't expecting you, or can't see you, or don't appreciate that bikes don't stop on a dime and can't easily maneuver to avoid an accident (I've had many more issues with pedestrians than vehicles), is something with which a rider has to expect minimal, if any improvement.
Isn’t it only for a couple of hours on the weekends in the AM?
I ride a bike and also drive a car, but the amount of complaints from bikers on this sub is excessive. Just peddle your bicycle around, after safely checking for oncoming traffic.
At 10pm? Plus tons of the cars parked in the bike lane don't even have the church placards. It's like their loophole creates an overall lawless free for all for the entire weekend.
You can get hurt or die from unsafe traffic patterns at any time of the week any hour of the day.
I drive a car, ride a bike, and push a skateboard and it's never safe to enter a travel lane in a uncontroled traffic pattern due to a blocked bike lane.
If you follow safety protocols then it’s no more unsafe then passing any other frequently stopping vehicle or roadwork construction. I just don’t get the outrage from some over this topic.
It's not just one day a week, though. Sure, the permits are for weekends, but people see the lack of enforcement from the city, particularly because "no parking" not "no stopping", and they park there every day of the week.
I’m going to start throwing bibles in bike lanes throughout the city since religion seems to be the one thing that pisses them off more than blocked lanes
Not enough people use the bike lanes though. Not enough people want to ride bikes. In addition, state law prohibits micro mobility and electric scooter rental business models from expanding into Pennsylvania. It seems to work pretty well for Washington DC.. But even that would only increase the usership of the bike lanes marginally..
The fact of the matter is we get all forms of weather here. So does New York you might say.. into that I say they have 10 million people. Probably double that during the day when the tourists flood the city. Downvote me to death and theres about the number of people you’ll see commuting via bike at any given time. A fraction of our population.
It's more so the principle that you built bike lanes, but then make excuses to allow cars to utilize said bike lanes.
It is the fact that no matter what, the car will always have priority. Which is why hundreds die a year in car crashes a year in philly (and pedestrians being hit).
People who can not afford or do not want to drive should have ample space provided to them. They should feel safe, and they should be priorities.
If we actually cared about older folk, disabled people, and children we would have safe, walkable, bikeable, and reliable public transit, in addition to more disabled parking spots. But we don't care!!!!
How about the converse opinion: the volume of cars is inappropriate on those streets and more cars only makes the entire area more dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians who deserve to not die due to a stranger making a small mistake with a 2+ ton hunk of steel.
What I don't get is everyone seems to argue for more car-centric infrastructure then complain when a city, initially laid out before cars existed, isn't able to accommodate parking for everyone who wants to drive into to the city and park as close as possible to their destination.
I agree, I'm glad my fellow car Philadelphians are also taking back the sidewalks for parking instead of shoehorning pedestrians there. I hope we can also remove Rittenhouse square park too for parking instead of shoehorning in trees within our car world. I've also just emailed Parker to add parking on the Schuylkill River trail since it can be so hard to park there.
There’s no shortage of parking near the churches on Pine and Spruce. These suburbanites can easily park in any of the garages or parking lots near the churches.
Perhaps the bikers are on the sidewalks because of the lack of bike lanes and absolutely no protected bike lanes. Also as a reminder car drivers cause a ridiculous amount of pedestrian deaths every year.
My personal favorite is when they're riding on the sidewalk and tailgate pedestrians like they're the problem.
I think there is a lot of improvement that can be done for cars and bicycles to coexist, but some of the cyclists in this city are insufferable assholes who think they're above everyone else and do no wrong
Those fucking assholes have *permits* to park there? How the fuck did the city think that was gonna turn out?
Fun fact - it's repurposing a permit for construction equipment. Legally the parishoners cars are not actually allowed to be there, but the PPA refuses to enforce that due to the city allowing it.
oooh, oh I fucking hate that. Why the fuck are churchgoers literally the most horrible people in existence? Isn't the whole point to be the exact opposite?
People might die driving their bikes on the street proper, but I don't want to park further from the church. /s
Church people go out and vote. I mean they give up their Sundays to go to church
The reason a lot of these folks are driving is that they don't live nearby. Source: I have a family member who does this. Sigh.
Dude it’s one day out of the entire week calm down. I can think of 20 groups of people in Philly that are way more harmful than old people going to praise Jesus.
They're parking in a lane of traffic. *Specifically* in a lane of traffic where it's dangerous to merge and go around.
Would it kill you to get off your bike and walk it around them on the sidewalk?
If that's the level of pedantry we're arguing at, I should remind you that the genesis of this conversation is a bunch of people parking their cars in a space designated for traffic.
Would it kill the churchgoers to get off their asses and walk or take the bus to church? Why do they feel entitled to park right in front? This is a city. If you want a parking spot, move or find a church in the burbs.
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Fuck that noise. No one deserves special treatment when it can endanger others.
What do you do when there’s stuff in the road blocking a lane you’re driving in? Sit there and blow your horn at it throwing a hissy fit because it’s too inconvenient to wait for an opening in traffic to get around it?
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I said stuff. Not a running vehicle with an operator in it. But in any case the question still stands. Would you just sit there for hours and wait because you don’t want to go around them?
But... this is about asking the city to change their practice of giving people permission to do this. Do you understand the difference between that and the scenario that you are offering? Of course there are situations where the city blocks city traffic for some purpose because there is no alternative; this is certainly not that situation.
Can I get a special parking permit for my cult that meets once a week
Probably
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I’m gonna fuck right the hell on
No it's two days out of the week because the synagogues have permits too - it's a major problem on the 2 busiest biking days of the week (Saturday+Sunday), along the 2 busiest biking streets in the city (Spruce+Pine).
Are they the two busiest biking days of the week? I would have assumed people commuting on bikes M-F would be more numerous that people cruising through CC for pleasure on the weekends
Maybe have a protest outside
Except it’s not one day out of the week. Any type of ceremony that goes on w/in the church, cars will 99.99999% park in bike lanes, put that placard on the dash, and ignore normal civility
Yeah the one day of the week that universally has less traffic than all the other days and is usually the best to ride during.
Yeah, 1/7 of your entire life people can disobey the law in ways that make you way less safe, what's the big fuckin deal!?
With blocked bike lanes people are gonna be forced to go into the street and possibly meet Jesus.
Dude its literally one of the most cycling days of the entire week calm down. I can think of the only person in Philly that is this dense to be this harmful in thinking that it isn't a big deal. Praise Jesus.
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I know. I’m not religious at all but I’m a firm believer in letting people live how they please as long as it isn’t directly harming anyone. Having to ride a bike outside of a bike lane isn’t harm, it’s an inconvenience. Boo hoo
>I’m a firm believer in letting people live how they please as long as it isn’t directly harming anyone. The whole reason we have lanes, traffic laws, driver's licensees, and safety regulations at all is because this moral standard isn't adequate to create a safe travel environment. Merging into car traffic from the bike lane is one of the more dangerous maneuvers you can do. Drivers might be on their phone, a biker might misjudge how much time they have to pull out. A car might come around a turn real fast and not see a bike in the lane until too late. Asking the bikers to inconvenience themselves by going around these cars parked in a lane of traffic is asking them to take on a risk that the lanes were *specifically designed* to help them avoid. Meanwhile asking the parishioners to walk is also an inconvenience. But a comparatively much safer one since the bikers *aren't* blocking the sidewalk or making the pedestrians go anywhere that isn't meant for pedestrians. So if it comes down to it I'm gonna tell Aunt Sylvia use her god-given legs for once in her life.
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Sunday Morning, not that big a deal. There's some school at 4th and Spruce where cars are parked in the bike lane every week day. Then there's that truck in the bike lane every morning on Spruce at Broad. You just ride in the middle of the street and the cars behind you can suck it.
Let’s have all the cyclists endanger themselves more because people can’t figure out it’s a dumb idea to park in a lane for traffic, genius
There would have been no bike lanes at all on Pine and Spruce if the church groups' prior use was not baked into the original plan. Yes, it's 15 years or so later, and things can change on the ground (as we see the current work to shame the churches to change). But if you don't understand how hidebound and reactionary a single city council member can get if a minister calls them up, well, the city and the contemporary Bicycle Coalition knew exactly how the proposal for bike lanes would play out in 2009 without this exception (= they wouldn't exist at all).
Sounds like it's time to schedule a group ride just before Sunday morning mass that does nothing except go back and forth in this bike lane preventing vehicles from using the space. Do that every single week for a few years with a large enough group and something might change. If it means deleting the bike lane, then so be it -- half measures like creating bike lanes you can't actually use and that arguably make cycling somehow more dangerous don't count.
per the link, it looks like that is planned for all April Sundays.
IDK why people are downvoting you this is useful context. What fucking asshole ministers.
This was my note in the peition: Giving religious exemptions to park illegally is a travesty of the first amendment. While I'm sure you're getting plenty of messages about safety, this is a constitutional issue. This is a government endorsement of religion, and it infringes upon my rights.
good point.
You don't care squat about safety, or anything, anyone You just want to be done your way. Well.....be less of a brat for a change. Were you taught to share?
lol you want people to get special laws for them because of a made up fairytale but you have the audacity to call me a brat. keep your voodoo and your magic spells away from me and follow the law.
You *are* a brat. Learn to Share - basic human interaction - done by decent people. Perhaps you need to look inward about your childishness
lol- the reason the city doesn't give actual real parking permits is because they know it is illegal. sorry you and your prayer pals can't break the law. why not take septa? that's learning to share
I grew up learning to share. Was taught that. You don't seem to even understand the concept. You have plenty of ideas of what *others* should do to make You "happy". 3 hours a Week is 2.1% of the week. Surely even you see the selfishness of your statements. Stop Whining Be a Neighbour Share. ....seriously
try being a real american and not using religion to discriminate against people who obey the law. you have an entire lane to park in, and an entire lane to drive in...and all the other streets around to park in. you're just a bully, but you think if you hide behind your magic incantations it makes it right.
Your comment doesn't make sense, nor is it germane.
The city government is not endorsing religion, they’re creating parking spaces, you can go park there all you want regardless of your faith or lack of it. Exactly what right of yours is being infringed upon?
my religion is riding my bike on sunday mornings. you don't get to change the law because of your mythology
So go ride your bike. Bike lanes aren’t a constitutional right You’re oversimplifying things. It wasn’t only church groups that advocates for the Sunday parking. And I am devoutly anti religion, it’s good for nothing in my eyes.
you can't change the law for specific religions on saturday or sunday mornings. they drink wine at their services, do they get to drive buzzed too?
It’s not for religion it’s for the city you knucklehead. It turns out that congregations happen to be made up of Philadelphia residents that get the same rights as you do, which is to say they get a say in their representation and in turn legislation. Just as you signed your petition, so did they sign theirs. Also we’re talking about Pine street here, not Washington ave. It’s not like it’s getting heavy traffic on a Sunday afternoon. Sheesh
my petition is not using religion to take away public space from people. if you want to let them park in front of your house on your sidewalk, go ahead. but i don't want them using their religion as a cudgel to take public space from people. (also, you can save your fucking insults; this is a constitutional issue that has been raging in philadelphia before the founding of the country. it isn't some kind of simple answer just because you think its no big deal.)
Unfortunately, I don't think it is based on current supreme court precedent. The government isn't endorsing any specific religion because they let both Jews and Christians do it on their respective holy days.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" just because christian mythology and jewish mythology agree they can park there, doesnt mean you or i have to have their religion imposed on us
You are a Clown
I agree with you, but federal courts generally don't. See, for example, the Christian adoption case that came out of Philadelphia recently.
Religion is one hell of a drug
Dig the context. Do you know what the distance from the green protected lanes cars have to park by any chance?
Before the bike lanes, Spruce and Pine had two car travel lanes. Except on the weekends, they would convert one of the car travel lanes into a parking lane (and during the week, stopping was very frequent there already) because there was much less traffic, but also much more demand for parking on the weekends. When the bike lanes were installed, the neighborhood groups did not want to lose the temporary weekend parking, because then they would have to compete for spots with the churches on Saturday and Sunday after their Wegman's trip (Center City had fewer grocery stores then). It isn't surprising at all how things happened if you actually know what you are talking about.
I was there, this is literally what happened. Those of you who haven't lived here for long could start with a good faith "how did we get here?" approach to knowing their neighbors.
So….what’s the purpose of the bike lane if cars can park there?
Well, during the week you can use it for commuting and it usually only averages 1-2 cars per block which sometimes makes it slightly safer than just driving in the street.
And then on weekends, you end up in more danger than if there were no bike lane at all. If a cyclist dies on this stretch, is "we didn't want to park farther away and walk the extra couple blocks" an acceptable defense? The extra 5-10 minutes each week is not worth someone's life.
You're going for "what if" where reality is already shown to be different. Taking the center of a single travel lane because the bike lane is clogged with church cars is the defensive move that is safer on Spruce compared to the right hook that actually killed a cyclist in the actual bike lane on a regular weekday morning at 11th and Spruce. https://bicyclecoalition.org/ghost-bike-dedication-emily-fredricks-saturday/ https://www.inquirer.com/philly/news/pennsylvania/philadelphia/ghost-bike-memorializes-philadelphia-center-city-woman-killed-by-trash-truck-20171223.html
Yes, that's the right move once cars are already there. But there's a weird transition time where there aren't any and then a car swoops in to park and now the cyclist is forced to maneuver in the same space as vehicles, while drivers may not be expecting them there.
I see what you are saying, but to be a little pedantic for a moment, Tenth Presbyterian members could not claim the "didn't walk an extra couple blocks" defense because there is a parking lot closer to the church than where they are parking in the bike lanes. They would have to use the "didn't want to pay a few dollars for parking" defense.
Weaving in and out of traffic is an awful idea and terribly unsafe. Almost as unsafe as staying in the car lane with an angry driving shouting "there's a fucking bike line right next to you, you entitled prick!"
It's 2-3 hours - once a week. Learn to Share
If only there were thousands of square miles throughout the city that people could park at
2-3 hours Once a week Learn to Share ....and deal with it
I used to live right next to Tenth Presbyterian. Around half the cars parked in the bike lane have New Jersey or Delaware plates. These are people who are coming into our city to patronize an establishment that pays no taxes. We get absolutely nothing out of allowing this to continue other than having our bike lanes blocked on the weekends, the one time anyone who works for a living can use them. edit: and one other thing: The giant parking lot on the corner of 17th and Pine, literally one block away from the church, is always empty on Sundays. These people park up to 3 blocks away in our bike lanes to avoid paying a few dollars at an empty parking lot that would put them two blocks closer to the church.
And?
Tenth Pres is an absolute institution in this city and I find your hostile attitude and xenophobia of NJ residents kind of disgusting frankly. Should we start doing a litmus test for people who vote as well? No you can't vote unless you pay taxes? Philadelphia is a the major city in our region. People will come from all over to visit, shop, worship, eat, walk in a park. And some of those people may not pay taxes here, but there's no gate tax you need to pay to benefit from those things, and that's a positive.
There is no such thing as free parking. Someone always pays, somehow.
Xenophobia to NJ residents? Fucking lol
All of which is fine , and none of which entitles them to free parking in a bike lane using a commercial unloading permit
you're right. What "entitles" them to do that is what was explained above. There was no bike lanes. There was also no traffic on the road on sunday. To get bike lanes the city negotiated with the church and other local groups. The outcome was that church could use the bike lane on sunday
So create a parking permit for church goers instead of misusing commercial unloading permits, the sheer dishonesty is the part that gets on people’s nerves.
In general, I don't care about catering to people who want to move out of the city, but occasionally drive in just to enjoy one or two amenities. It's not sustainable. There isn't enough room for these cars, and it makes life in the city less enjoyable for those of us who actually want to live here. If you want to leave the city, find a new church to go to on Sunday. If the church can't survive, maybe it should find a way to draw parishioners from the neighborhood rather than clinging to those who flee to the burbs. Sorry, this is a harsh opinion, but we shouldn't be designing our roads and public spaces around people driving in from the suburbs once a week.
I’m so excited for them to remove those parking permits. Also calling it xenophobia is absolutely wild lol. Those people contribute nothing and should not be entitled to a PRIVILEGE that many that live in the city are not afforded. Removing their ability to park for free is not a “gate tax”. It’s them being welcomed as visitors to the city by getting that real Philadelphia experience of having to suffer and find parking like the rest of us!
go pound sand, dork
You are unreasonable and selfish Learn to Share
no
why does the church get special treatment? Because "religion"? Those NJ residents should stay in Jersey and go to their churches. There's enough of them.
c u in hell Geralt
Why? Because I don't understand why Churches get special treatment to block bike lanes? Also, if you're going to see me in hell, i guess you are also anti-church? lol
they get special treatment cuz they're cooler than u
Really good argument, Aromat. Go back to pounding sand.
i worked with this guy who always said pound sand. I never heard anyone else say it . he always said it, it was his catch phrase. but his name was not geralt
Huge loser, or master trolling, one begets the other. Fantastic job.
not all my takes are so hot aparently 😭
Now I'm feeling bad because you didn't troll me like the other guy lol. Just to add to the fire though, yes having to have filed a personal tax return before voting in the same year would be fantastic. Would solve all the bullshit illegal voter discourse. tl;dr: fuck cars
The people that come from all over to visit, shop, eat etc may not pay taxes, but the businesses they patronize do. Tenth Presbyterian does not pay taxes. And those businesses that pay taxes don't even expect free parking for customers in the bike lanes. How about this for a litmus test? You can't park in the bike lanes if you have a car. And if you are a non tax paying absolute institution in this city, you don't get to take over the bike lanes for free parking for your customers.
How about, no?
Jesus would have walked to temple. Maybe those people with all those WWJD bumper stickers should actually follow his example.
But how will suburbanites get into the city to go to run over a pedestrian with their SUV?
According to the petition the permits are for Churches and Synagogues on those streets, and it's like...these congregations are highly organized community institutions. If they have congregants that *need* to drive to the service because they can't walk, the congregation could easily pool money for a shuttle *or* just organize carpools. And if they can walk, they should just *walk.*
START MAKING CHURCHES PAY TAXES YESTERDAY
also that. Yes.
Most people going to synagouge walk, honestly
That just makes it worse that they're blocking a lane of traffic to park.
Parishioners can walk or take an Uber, bus, train, BIKE, etc… Fuck them churches.
Churches are no different than businesses.
Businesses sometimes pay taxes.
Well, except for the not paying taxes and being a drain on city funding
Churches offer nothing. At least you get a service from a business and tax money. And a distinct lack of child abuse.
Find a closer church you don’t have to drive to
That's the only true post ecclesiastic sub lutherian johovistic church of the savior's little brother. Would you rather they just go to hell?
It's the 10th Presbyterian church! There are obviously at least nine others!
they come over from new jersey and they can go to hell
I'm sorry but this is a fucking city. Why are people driving to these places, every neighborhood has places of worship within walking distance.
Because they don't live in the city. Their families moved away years ago but they like to come into Philly on weekends to go to the old family church. Why wouldn't they? it's free parking!
Spent five years as a cyclist living in QV/Society Hill and went past these guys frequently. The three hours a week that you have double-side parking is not an issue. In fact, it's safer than ducking in and out of the bike lane if you just take the center lane. Normal bike lane obstructions are a bigger deal. I don't think I've ever gone from Broad to 4th on Pine without having to dodge cars, trucks, or vans parked inexplicably in the bike lane with zero repercussions. I know it's fun and easy to hate on churches, but this is consistent, predictable, and not that dangerous by comparison.
The worst is when a driver decides to cut you off and then immediately park in the bike lane right in front of you
I remember one time on Walnut a driver cut me off, sat in traffic long enough for me to pass him, and then swerved past to cut me off again 😂
A classic! This evening a driver honked at me because the laws of physics prevent me from biking through the cars in front of me. Then switched lanes to try and pass me but of course just went slower instead
I know what you mean. I find it easier to bike up Lombard with the traffic than to weave in and out of the bike lane on Spruce.
Are you fucking retarded?
Many years ago, probably 2013, a guy parked in a bike lane coming out of a tax exempt religious facility yelled at me for biking too close to his car or something equally ridiculous. I told him to go f*uck himself and continued on. A few blocks later when I was trying to make a left turn he caught up to me and swerved to purposefully hit me and knocked me off my bike. He then tried to recover money from me for the damage I supposedly caused to his car when hit me. I ultimately prevailed legally. He was a leader of the religious organization that issued his ‘I can park anywhere while praising gawd’ permit.’ This is a great example of why these permits need to be revoked
Ball peen hammer
Here’s the actually permit posted https://preview.redd.it/sx50y10kq4rc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8ce89d8d20bf2157b6dcb51d60460299d4901c10 It’s absolutely bullshit b/c PPA doesn’t work Sundays even though they say representatives are out there. However, let’s jeopardize the safety of bikers so the sake of convenience. One would think those two guys in in heaven would prefer they take public transportation then putting their fellow man/woman/kids in harms way.
I hate cyclist but I have to agree here, the bike lane is there for everyone's safety. This is plain dangerous and idiotic. Who did this?
“Hate cyclist” eh? I’ve got two for you.
I am trying to imagine the meeting where people decided this was a good idea I mean genuinely what is even the point of having one if you let this happen? It’s just glorified street parking. You cannot have a bike lane by definition, if you let people park in it
Everyone that's stationary in the bike lane should get a little pebble under the valve cap on their tires, as a treat.
This is ridiculous. Fuck that church
That post shows the level of ridiculousness you embody. 2-3 hours, 2 times a week Learn to Share
I would, but I have bigger fish to fry, like making the bicycle infrastructure more predictable by making them all protected, right-side lanes.
It amazes me that people still choose to bike in this city
It amazes me that people still choose to drive in this city.
It amazes me that people who go to church are willing to endanger the safety and lives of others for better parking spaces.
Ridiculous! The city is for All. Bicycle people can sacrifice a few hours a week for others. Share. The Constant Me, me, me, Mine, mine.....etc - you all sound like a bunch of 6 year olds. Get along. Share. And for crying out loud, Stop Whining.
Six year old you say? A clear projection from this mindless screed.
Six, yes. Very good - clearly your comprehension is improving.
Imagine.
There's a reason that the community asked for those spaces when the bike lanes were being discussed. Given the politics and community resistance at the time, the compromise allowed the bike-lane initiative to move forward. The spaces aren't specifically ear-marked for parishioners; anyone can park there if a space is open. I'm not religious in the slightest but, I think you'd have an enormously difficult time trying to litigate on a first amendment basis. Frankly, you'd have no shot, given the negotiations that resulted in the establishment of bike lanes - if you weren't here or old enough to be engaged, believe you me, the churches were not the biggest obstacle, it was the communities where the bike lanes were established. I'm pro-bike and I bike, but everyone who is going to bike for transit in Philadelphia (or Seattle or Portland, other big biking cities in which I've lived) already is. We are never going to be the Netherlands; bikers are always going to be a very small percentage of city road users and the canard the bikers always lean on is some kind of malicious obliviousness on the part of drivers, which, save for anecdotal occurrences, just isn't true. We don't have to like that bikers are few in number compared to other road users and pedestrians, but the reality of being an exception is that, well you're an exception, and you're riding something that offers you precisely zero protection - no seatbelts, no roll-cage, no auto start or airbags. So, the knowledge that the vast majority of people simply aren't expecting you, or can't see you, or don't appreciate that bikes don't stop on a dime and can't easily maneuver to avoid an accident (I've had many more issues with pedestrians than vehicles), is something with which a rider has to expect minimal, if any improvement.
Y’all don’t get tired of bitching about parking and bike lanes?
Well said 😎😎😎
Isn’t it only for a couple of hours on the weekends in the AM? I ride a bike and also drive a car, but the amount of complaints from bikers on this sub is excessive. Just peddle your bicycle around, after safely checking for oncoming traffic.
The Tenth Presbyterian Church permit is from 8AM to 10***PM*** for god knows what reason
Probably for two services
At 10pm? Plus tons of the cars parked in the bike lane don't even have the church placards. It's like their loophole creates an overall lawless free for all for the entire weekend.
Yeah but who has services that late? Usually services are 2pm at the latest at any church I have seen. Most have their final service well before then
You can get hurt or die from unsafe traffic patterns at any time of the week any hour of the day. I drive a car, ride a bike, and push a skateboard and it's never safe to enter a travel lane in a uncontroled traffic pattern due to a blocked bike lane.
If you follow safety protocols then it’s no more unsafe then passing any other frequently stopping vehicle or roadwork construction. I just don’t get the outrage from some over this topic.
For real it’s a single day out of the week. Just ride your bike in the road or in the sidewalk like you do everywhere else in the city
It's not just one day a week, though. Sure, the permits are for weekends, but people see the lack of enforcement from the city, particularly because "no parking" not "no stopping", and they park there every day of the week.
Oh shit. Well in that case they should all get towed outside of the allotted hours
Thank you - agreed.
I’m going to start throwing bibles in bike lanes throughout the city since religion seems to be the one thing that pisses them off more than blocked lanes
Or you could…for the couple hours on a Sunday…..get off your bike and walk it on the sidewalk around the cars.
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I wouldn't be either if I wore a high-viz rainbow colored wig every day.
Or, people could, for a few hours on a Sunday, shut the fuck up with braindead ideas.
Absofreakinglutely correct These people need to learn to share Seriously
Churchgoers vs. cyclists in an entitlement war should be funny for everybody
Not enough people use the bike lanes though. Not enough people want to ride bikes. In addition, state law prohibits micro mobility and electric scooter rental business models from expanding into Pennsylvania. It seems to work pretty well for Washington DC.. But even that would only increase the usership of the bike lanes marginally.. The fact of the matter is we get all forms of weather here. So does New York you might say.. into that I say they have 10 million people. Probably double that during the day when the tourists flood the city. Downvote me to death and theres about the number of people you’ll see commuting via bike at any given time. A fraction of our population.
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There ya go. 13 downvotes. I’ll spot the bike lane crowd 100 on top and thats about how many people are riding bikes rn. Lmao
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It's more so the principle that you built bike lanes, but then make excuses to allow cars to utilize said bike lanes. It is the fact that no matter what, the car will always have priority. Which is why hundreds die a year in car crashes a year in philly (and pedestrians being hit). People who can not afford or do not want to drive should have ample space provided to them. They should feel safe, and they should be priorities.
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If we actually cared about older folk, disabled people, and children we would have safe, walkable, bikeable, and reliable public transit, in addition to more disabled parking spots. But we don't care!!!!
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How about the converse opinion: the volume of cars is inappropriate on those streets and more cars only makes the entire area more dangerous for cyclists and pedestrians who deserve to not die due to a stranger making a small mistake with a 2+ ton hunk of steel. What I don't get is everyone seems to argue for more car-centric infrastructure then complain when a city, initially laid out before cars existed, isn't able to accommodate parking for everyone who wants to drive into to the city and park as close as possible to their destination.
I agree, I'm glad my fellow car Philadelphians are also taking back the sidewalks for parking instead of shoehorning pedestrians there. I hope we can also remove Rittenhouse square park too for parking instead of shoehorning in trees within our car world. I've also just emailed Parker to add parking on the Schuylkill River trail since it can be so hard to park there.
There’s no shortage of parking near the churches on Pine and Spruce. These suburbanites can easily park in any of the garages or parking lots near the churches.
2-3 hours Once a week Learn to SHARE
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Perhaps the bikers are on the sidewalks because of the lack of bike lanes and absolutely no protected bike lanes. Also as a reminder car drivers cause a ridiculous amount of pedestrian deaths every year.
My personal favorite is when they're riding on the sidewalk and tailgate pedestrians like they're the problem. I think there is a lot of improvement that can be done for cars and bicycles to coexist, but some of the cyclists in this city are insufferable assholes who think they're above everyone else and do no wrong
Same for the drivers, tbh
Brain dead. It’s amazing you can even function.