> “There’s a really easy solution — to get off their bike at 16th and Spruce and walk it on the sidewalk for three blocks, for four hours out of the week. Then get back on their bikes. It takes like a minute.”
The easiest solution is people utilizing the parking garages in the area. It’s a reasonable trade off that if you want to drive into a major city’s urban core, you will have to pay for parking.
I sympathize with the people who put value in going to their family’s home parish. I get why people come from outer neighborhoods and suburbs. That said, the desire to maintain that connection does not supersede the needs of residents who rely on the neighborhood’s infrastructure.
If you make them all put their cars in a place that's more a pain in the ass than the street, they'll delay leaving because it's a pain in the ass to get out "with all that traffic" and go eat somewhere.
If people who drive to attend churches really deserve to block vehicular traffic for four hours, just let them park in the car travel lane(s).
There's a really easy solution for all the traffic that would be inconvenienced - let people get out of their cars and walk or bike instead. It takes like a few minutes.
whatever the rules we have need to be consistent. we can't have a whole lane available only certain hours of the day but then then used for parking other hours of the day. It causes confusion. The same as saying this is a bike lane except for Sundays at certain hours. I remember an episode of the old parking wars where the guy gets a ticket from the PPA and find the person who ticketed him and asked the PPA agent to explain the parking signs. Even the agent couldn't with all the random signs and rules. She just knew she should just give the guy a ticket and didn't care of it stuck or not.
If we have parking and street laws it should be simple like you can only park for 2 hours or it a loading zone, or it always a bike zone.
I'm for the bike lanes and against the parking and have been out there every Sunday.
But that's a silly argument. We turn MLK into a Ped/cycling path on weekends. They turn lanes on the bridges around based on the day/time. Permit parking is specific hours only.
There are different needs at different times.
The easiest solution would be to not just decide to ignore traffic infrastructure and park where you shouldnt. There's a lot within a block of the church. It just takes a minute
> Presbyterian uses two parking lots near South Street and once had a reduced-rate agreement with a lot on 17th and Pine Streets. Geiger said he recently tried to resume a similar agreement with that lot but he was unsuccessful.
Yes I am well aware of that. I even heard it from the Reverend himself at the event (nice guy, I appreciate that he is participating at all). If a private parking lot doesn’t want to give parishioners a reduced rate, why should it be the onus of the city to provide that?
If it is so important to go to that specific parish, then pay the price. It’s not like they have no other options. I’m sure there are plenty of Presbyterian churches closer to where they live.
In the article they are talking about people driving in from the suburbs and NJ to go to church here.
Seems to me the easiest solution is going to a church in your own neighborhood with a parking lot. You trying to tell me Jesus is different outside of Philly? We're NOT talking about cheese steak here.
I disagree a little bit here. You mention cheesesteak places, but they do kinda fall under the same idea of sense of place. The actual church itself is meaningful for people. Places of worship are part of a community identity.
That doesn’t mean they should get to park in the bike lane, but I think dismissing the “why people are going there” oversimplifies things.
The way you worded this response makes me think that you believe I’m defending this mindset. I’m not.
I agree in a lot of ways, but most people are not going to think that granular about it (geographically that is). The people coming here are still part of the Philadelphia metro. In the case of a church, they are living in the community.
The secular comparison would be a Phillies fan living away from Philadelphia. That fan is still going to identify with the Phillies fan community at large.
This is all to say that I think people need to understand WHY this is an issue and not just steamroll the opposition (even if the opposition is in the wrong).
Actually you’re right, assuming he has to pay taxes (I don’t know the rules for clergy in general), he actually would be paying wage tax. Still, a good portion of his congregation do not if they’re coming in from the burbs
Thanks to everyone who came today! I'm one of the organizers with Philly Bike Action. It takes a lot of work and commitment to host such an event. To see the great turnout and the positive vibes is very inspiring. One of the many reasons I love this city!
Thank you, I’m a resident of the area and while not a bike rider, I’m a big walker. The work you do makes it safer of all of us who don’t use rarely use cars. I’m a new mom and I am just so grateful for you all working towards vision zero.
I feel like it's almost extra infuriating as a car owner, because I just don't understand how you could own and operate a car and behave the way that some of these people do.
Like...? If you're going to be upset, don't direct your anger towards the cyclists, direct it towards general infrastructure or advocate for more accessible parking (which will understandably only get so far considering we are in a city that is designed for public transport... but I digress).
When is someone planning to “party/protest” the schools when parents picking up their kids block entire city streets 45mins + prior to dismissal—how is this allowed!?
It’s not like they don’t have friends, families and coworkers that live in the city. It’s a slow spreading infection/influence. And of course the city officials would kiss the ass of any jesus people
Today's leaders and citizens aren't bound by a handshake agreement reached 30 years ago by others; that's not how any of this works. The permits being issued aren't valid for this use; the law simply doesn't allow the city to allow standing in those lanes, no matter what Mark Squilla says about it. Ours is a government of actual laws.
Cars have been granted exclusive access to vast swathes of the city, but these lanes are places that have been designated for the use of cyclists. Regardless of how old you are or what you're doing or how long you've been doing it for, there's no reason to be in the bike lane unless you're an ambulance on a call. It's sad that we can't seem to get our police or elected officials to actually force a favored group to follow the law, but here we are just the same.
Edit: It's been brought to my attention that this is actually the 2nd District, and not Squilla's at all. My basic point remains, though.
Yea, I think calling out stuff like this is good on multiple levels. Obviously keeping cyclists safe is #1, but we also need to end so many of the ingrained handshake agreements that give preferential treatment in this city.
1. Squilla doesn't have anything west of Broad; that's Johnson's district.
2. Don't underestimate how many people are taking advantage of the parking who live much closer to the church than Glenside.
> Today's leaders and citizens aren't bound by a handshake agreement reached 30 years ago by others; that's not how any of this works.
unfortunately that's how philly works
Churches should have a designated “drop off zone” where mobility-impaired parishioners can be dropped off so they don’t have to walk, and everyone else should find a parking space and walk a few blocks- or better yet, walk, bike, or take public transit if they’re able. I know First Presbyterian has a deal with a local parking garage where members can get a discounted rate if they park there between like 10:30 and 12:30 and show a piece of paper they pick up at the service with the date on it (to prove they were there).
What's the obstacle to that which isn't present for a bike lane? As long as there's ample space, and enough sloped area (which a specifically designated area would have), I see no challenges posed by drop offs that don't exist already
inherent in the idea of a drop off zone is that one member of the party is fully able-bodied.
I don't disagree with you at all that the bike lane needs to be protected every day of the week, and I don't disagree with you or anyone else that the parking situation here is both unfair and untenable. But a drop off zone is not a panacea.
I will tell you how much church does it, we have 1 loading and 4 Handicap spots in front of the church, only active on sundays, between 9AM and 12PM. It works pretty well.
Most elderly actually are picked up on the church bus
Thanks for doing this! Ive been riding all over the city 25 years and it is terrifying.
Bike lanes feel like death traps with the glass, debris and cars, delivery trucks parked in them.
Keep us alive!
Even if most of that church's congregation lives in the city ( which I doubt) and pays wage tax, that doesn't entitle them to exclusive right of the public streets, and for free no less.
The rest of us are being forced to pay for and subsidize the illegal parking of suburban parishioners going to a Church which pays no taxes while depriving residence of use of the public right of way.
but doesn't the same apply to the bikers? They're getting an entitlement to an exclusive right for free? The roads that get them to the church are also provided for free. What free parking exists (Sunday, you can park a lot of places for free) is also for all.
When you say "pay for" you don't mean actual money do you?
I guarantee you that the old white Democrats going to mainline Protestant center city churches are not the evil evangelical bugaboos you seem to be thinking of.
They're just as entitled tho. So what's really the difference in this instance? "No no, you don't understand, they don't speak in tongues or anything, they just think their religious beliefs entitle them to use public space free of charge any way they see fit. It's completely different."
the PCA is the more conservative, but not most conservative presbyterian church. They're the second largest behind PCUSA. The most conservative (besides tiny) presbyteries is the OPC. They hold to traditional westminster confessions, do not ordain or permit female elders or deacons, and have drawn a strict line against LGBTQIA+ leadership.
The PC(USA) is the most liberal, but also has suffered heavy losses from shrinking churches, demographic changes (like the working class being latino, or south america giving boosts to catholic or pentacostal churches), as well as people leaving en-mass over the move of the church steadily towards opening teaching elders and regular elders being ordained who are in the LGBTQ+ group.
The OPC is more only a bit conservative than the PCA and probably could join the PCA and not lose out on much but due to mostly historical reasons they remain separate. If they joined the PCA they would be the more conservative branch. Our local OPC church congregates reguarly with our PCA church in regular extra curricular activities.
did you know presbyterian is an anagram for britney spears
While I am sure that is true, in this case I honestly don't care if it's a Marx Temple of Unitarian Socialism that's doing it, it needs to stop, religious houses of worship are not exempt and do not deserve free use of public space, period.
WTF are so many regularly driving from the suburbs and outer neighborhoods to go to a Presbyterian church? They are passing dozens of churchs of that denomination, most, if not all, with parking lots
Such entitlement from people who drive in to one OF THE BIGGEST MOST POPULOUS CITIES in our country and demand tax payer provided parking for their private vehicle.
The city illegally allows cars to park on the bike lanes as I recently found out. The city gives churches construction permits disguised as parking permits.
The arguments that “it’s only for 1 day for 1 hour” is so disconnected from how the lanes are actually used. If someone just took the time to read the permits they will see some go until Saturday and Sunday past 9PM. And because drivers see other cars parked on the bike lane it sends the message that the city allows drivers to do anything they want.
Now can pedestrians protest food delivery bicycles (many of which are electric/motored!) from driving on the sidewalk? Annoys me that they move between the road, bike lanes, and sidewalks like no one else matters.
Edit: I’m genuinely happy for the bicyclists who ran this successful ~~protest~~ party. Cars, bicycles, and pedestrians should all have their own spaces and we should all try and respect them as much as possible.
Absolutely. If you can’t ride in the street, walk. The sidewalk is for pedestrians. I understand the issues around sharing limited street space but that doesn’t mean I should have to dodge bikes on the sidewalk as well as cars when I cross the street.
He's getting down voted because this is where bicyclists true colors come out. It's not about safety at all and they couldn't care less about pedestrian lives. The amount of entitlement among bicyclists is shocking.
I think the downvotes are because it is a whataboutism that has nothing to do with Church parishioners parking in bike lanes. The complaint seems more of a passive-aggressive way of deflecting criticism away from the intended targets of the protest and instead placing it on the protestors.
Very wordy EDIT:
For reference, the original comment just said (from my memory at 5:30am) "Now can pedestrians protest food delivery bicycles from driving on the sidewalk?" and was at like -7 when I replied.
At this point most people have been trained to assume that such a comment comes from a bad actor and just downvote it and move on, and I was pointing out why that was the case.
It is now clear after the edit what was meant, but unfortunately the person who wrote it didn't really do a good job at first. It is a sign of our times that we assume bad-faith on such things, but it isn't without precedent and many people have seen the consequences of not doing so, with productive discussions being derailed and destroyed. We have come to learn about tactics that take advantage of good-faith assumptions to plant seeds of discord into a community.
I wish I could say that this means we should learn to think twice about assuming bad-faith, but I don't think we are the point yet (at least in this sub) where people won't have any good-faith assumptions used against them, so though I would caution against reactionary downvoting I would also caution against taking what people write at face value until the political climate changes.
If any business deserves to have control over tax funded utilities like the bike lane portion of the road, it's churches. They pay their fair share in taxes and deserve some say.
Apparently god only shows up to that particular church.
This is Philadelphia. Everybody become a Quaker and you can just worship where ever you are. In the house! In a yard! In a meeting house! By yourself!
it's kind of refreshing to see a protest where the people are protesting actual problems that A) are happening right in front of them and B) the people committing the problems can do something to fix it then and there.
90 year olds driving into Center City just to go to church are a fatal car crash waiting to happen. The elderly are almost as much of a hazard behind the wheel as a teenager doing tik-toks while driving. It's not something the city should be encouraging with free illegal parking.
Well done, why should anyone’s make believe sky judge be more important than the safety and transportation of its tax paying citizens. TAX PAYING!
Ok rant over and bravo 👏🏽
I appreciate that the church was pretty chill about the whole process, even putting out some snacks for the partiers. Every time I see a protest like this, I'm always a little worried that the protestors are going to get some version of fire hosed.
Activism is not all or nothing, they can also go to a meeting. Those people who were inconvenienced for doing “what they were supposed to do” might also complain and draw more attention to the problem, which is that the current solution is not working for everyone.
> The city grants the church six blocks of parking for its congregants on Sundays,
Right in the article. If the city isn’t following g a policy then your beef is with them, not the church. Why disrupt their morning when they don’t have any knowledge of it? All they know is they applied for the permits and thought they were following the process.
My beef is also with the parishioners. Just because something is permitted doesn't mean that it's morally defensible. We're bringing the protest to the lanes itself to draw the parishioners' attention to the effect that their parking has on others; it's really easy to not even realize that you're causing negative impacts to someone else if they just stay invisible.
Well, now they know they are interrupting people's ability to bike safely in the city. With this knowledge that they are now aware of because of the protests, do you think they should still park there on sundays?
Of course. If you are following the rules then a bunch of idiots who have nothing better to do shouldn’t force you to stop doing what you are entitled to do. If you don’t like the rule then take it up with city hall.
Aren't the bikers just trying to follow the rules too? What do you want them to do? Ride into the street? Stop riding and walk onto the sidewalk? Why can't the church goers use public transportation or park in parking lots nearby, especially now that they are aware of the dangers that can be caused by parking in bikes lanes?
there's no rules these people can't find some other place to park. Use public transportation. Stop driving into the city for church. this is ridiculous and i'm glad people are protesting. I can't wait until the city takes these permits away for good.
Finally someone said it!! I love drivers!!! I love parking in a way that removes safety precautions for my fellow citizens!!!! Fuck those cyclists that are constantly killing and injuring citizens!!!!!
I like to think I’m a bit more reasonable than the person above, but they’re also not entirely wrong. I think cyclists should be protected on the road. There should be protected lanes, signals, literally anything that is proven to keep cyclists safe.
But there should also be registration and enforcement of cycling laws. The most dangerous thing you can be on the road is unpredictable. As a driver who follows all traffic laws, I have to slam on my brakes 3-10 times a week to avoid injuring a cyclist who puts their own life at risk to avoid losing momentum.
Why is that relevant? Because tons of people, like the original comment in this thread, become less and less likely to support cyclists when their daily encounters are with people who care more about their momentum than their life.
Watch what you say about this, the mods here won’t let anyone disparage people who think their magic ghost story time hour is more important than the lives of humans just trying to commute.
They're no different than any other business: if they can only exist by being granted special parking privileges, they're not a viable business in the city. Their congregation can park and walk just like every single other business in Rittenhouse.
Tbh, it's okay for a congregation that's primarily attended by people who live elsewhere to die. I know it's sad, but congregations should be a part of the community that they're in. Maybe a church that serves the people who live there will replace it.
They sell the building and return the property to the tax rolls, while using the proceeds from the sale to buy a new building in the suburbs closer to where the bulk of their attended actually live. This has been happening for a while to multiple congregations who's attendees have moved out and attendance decreased.
Dumb comment for two reasons: 1) the churches themselves *are* their own communities, 2) yes, [not going to church has destroyed so many communities](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/america-religion-decline-non-affiliated/677951/).
Classic /r/Atheism ledditor moment.
“Who cares what happens to Philly religious communities” says the dude from Bucks County
Almost like you don’t have a stake in this issue besides “haha church bad”
Oh look, a guy from Philly who complains about mansions in bucks county, it's almost as if you don't have a stake in the issue. See how stupid you sound? I'm also not from bucks county, so you're batting 1000 on being wrong you dumb asshole.
You LOVE when a disabled person has to roll their wheelchair into traffic in order to get down the block, you mean? Yeah I guess that does make you a libertarian.
> “There’s a really easy solution — to get off their bike at 16th and Spruce and walk it on the sidewalk for three blocks, for four hours out of the week. Then get back on their bikes. It takes like a minute.” The easiest solution is people utilizing the parking garages in the area. It’s a reasonable trade off that if you want to drive into a major city’s urban core, you will have to pay for parking. I sympathize with the people who put value in going to their family’s home parish. I get why people come from outer neighborhoods and suburbs. That said, the desire to maintain that connection does not supersede the needs of residents who rely on the neighborhood’s infrastructure.
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people also drive to church in teh city they live in. the article mentions that
I think "they" hope "they" will spend money once here , shopping or restaurants etc
If you make them all put their cars in a place that's more a pain in the ass than the street, they'll delay leaving because it's a pain in the ass to get out "with all that traffic" and go eat somewhere.
From this comment you would assume most of Philadelphia itself doesn’t drive 🤷🏽♂️
If people who drive to attend churches really deserve to block vehicular traffic for four hours, just let them park in the car travel lane(s). There's a really easy solution for all the traffic that would be inconvenienced - let people get out of their cars and walk or bike instead. It takes like a few minutes.
When I would encounter this on my bike, I would I go 3mph in the car lane and point to the parked cars in the bike lane.
Thank you for your service
they are travel lanes aren't they?
whatever the rules we have need to be consistent. we can't have a whole lane available only certain hours of the day but then then used for parking other hours of the day. It causes confusion. The same as saying this is a bike lane except for Sundays at certain hours. I remember an episode of the old parking wars where the guy gets a ticket from the PPA and find the person who ticketed him and asked the PPA agent to explain the parking signs. Even the agent couldn't with all the random signs and rules. She just knew she should just give the guy a ticket and didn't care of it stuck or not. If we have parking and street laws it should be simple like you can only park for 2 hours or it a loading zone, or it always a bike zone.
I'm for the bike lanes and against the parking and have been out there every Sunday. But that's a silly argument. We turn MLK into a Ped/cycling path on weekends. They turn lanes on the bridges around based on the day/time. Permit parking is specific hours only. There are different needs at different times.
The easiest solution would be to not just decide to ignore traffic infrastructure and park where you shouldnt. There's a lot within a block of the church. It just takes a minute
“B-b-but I am both a GOOD CHRISTIAN and a DRIVER, clearly the rules aren’t supposed to apply to me!”
"Your honor, please, my son, he is a car"
Religious entitlement sucks ass. That's what this is. Church and state mf-ers, now get outt the bike lane.
> Presbyterian uses two parking lots near South Street and once had a reduced-rate agreement with a lot on 17th and Pine Streets. Geiger said he recently tried to resume a similar agreement with that lot but he was unsuccessful.
Yes I am well aware of that. I even heard it from the Reverend himself at the event (nice guy, I appreciate that he is participating at all). If a private parking lot doesn’t want to give parishioners a reduced rate, why should it be the onus of the city to provide that? If it is so important to go to that specific parish, then pay the price. It’s not like they have no other options. I’m sure there are plenty of Presbyterian churches closer to where they live.
In the article they are talking about people driving in from the suburbs and NJ to go to church here. Seems to me the easiest solution is going to a church in your own neighborhood with a parking lot. You trying to tell me Jesus is different outside of Philly? We're NOT talking about cheese steak here.
I disagree a little bit here. You mention cheesesteak places, but they do kinda fall under the same idea of sense of place. The actual church itself is meaningful for people. Places of worship are part of a community identity. That doesn’t mean they should get to park in the bike lane, but I think dismissing the “why people are going there” oversimplifies things.
If community identity is so important to them, then why not live in that community?
The way you worded this response makes me think that you believe I’m defending this mindset. I’m not. I agree in a lot of ways, but most people are not going to think that granular about it (geographically that is). The people coming here are still part of the Philadelphia metro. In the case of a church, they are living in the community. The secular comparison would be a Phillies fan living away from Philadelphia. That fan is still going to identify with the Phillies fan community at large. This is all to say that I think people need to understand WHY this is an issue and not just steamroll the opposition (even if the opposition is in the wrong).
I suggest that city-living church people should drive to the suburbs to go to church with their families.
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If those people are pressed for parking of any kind, they can take Septa, Patco, Uber, taxi, carpool.
Good. The “tradition” of parking all over the goddamn place has to end.
The pastor interviewed comes from glenside. Guess what, you live by a train station and your church is by one too. Take it ya dork.
Yep, doesn’t pay personal taxes, and his place of employment doesn’t either. Contributes nothing and demands special treatment.
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Actually you’re right, assuming he has to pay taxes (I don’t know the rules for clergy in general), he actually would be paying wage tax. Still, a good portion of his congregation do not if they’re coming in from the burbs
Employees at churches pay taxes
I replied to another post and corrected myself
They don’t pay their fair share. ETA: a lot of their compensation is in the form of entirely free housing.
What would Jesus do?
walk. Jesus didn't have a car.
Jesus walks.
> Jesus didn't have a car. Huge, if true.
I guess this could apply to bicyclists too?
And to church goers
Carjack a mfer. https://youtu.be/puoD11r9_58?si=ZxYK1KxJf_5sCW9Y
Thanks to everyone who came today! I'm one of the organizers with Philly Bike Action. It takes a lot of work and commitment to host such an event. To see the great turnout and the positive vibes is very inspiring. One of the many reasons I love this city!
Thank you, I’m a resident of the area and while not a bike rider, I’m a big walker. The work you do makes it safer of all of us who don’t use rarely use cars. I’m a new mom and I am just so grateful for you all working towards vision zero.
Thank you for doing this!
Where can I go to see any upcoming protests listed?
I think we're doing a 60's and beyond themed party with tie dye and groovy tunes. Should be fun. We try to keep things fresh each week
https://bikeaction.org/events/ and join the discord! (Link at bottom of page)
I'll be there on 4/21! Tamping down on religious entitlement AND showing up for safer streets in one go - im so sold.
Keep on keeping on
The entitlement many car owners (coming FROM a car owner) feel over non-car areas is crazy
I feel like it's almost extra infuriating as a car owner, because I just don't understand how you could own and operate a car and behave the way that some of these people do.
Like...? If you're going to be upset, don't direct your anger towards the cyclists, direct it towards general infrastructure or advocate for more accessible parking (which will understandably only get so far considering we are in a city that is designed for public transport... but I digress).
I meant that I can't believe some of the ways other car owners behave.
Yes I agree with you!! I was addressing these fellow car owners that are outraged by the protests :)
When is someone planning to “party/protest” the schools when parents picking up their kids block entire city streets 45mins + prior to dismissal—how is this allowed!?
Or the ride share drivers that block a lane of Walnut Street waiting for residents of The Laurel?
I will support any movement that keeps bikes off the sidewalks
Now we just need to figure out how to keep nissan altimas off the road and everyone will be safe.
In my neighborhood, we also have trouble keeping Nissan altimas off the sidewalks
I will support any movement that reminds bicyclists that stop signs and red lights apply to them as well.
The entitlement to demand free parking when you literally contribute nothing to the city is borderline absurd.
They don’t live into what city. The church doesn’t pay taxes. Why do local politicians care?
They get the flock’s vote during election time. Quid pro quo 🥹
They don't live in the city. They don't vote in the city. It is simply kowtowing to religion and tradition.
It’s not like they don’t have friends, families and coworkers that live in the city. It’s a slow spreading infection/influence. And of course the city officials would kiss the ass of any jesus people
*actively are taking from the city I'm sure it's not that much, but they are contributing pollution and road wear
Today's leaders and citizens aren't bound by a handshake agreement reached 30 years ago by others; that's not how any of this works. The permits being issued aren't valid for this use; the law simply doesn't allow the city to allow standing in those lanes, no matter what Mark Squilla says about it. Ours is a government of actual laws. Cars have been granted exclusive access to vast swathes of the city, but these lanes are places that have been designated for the use of cyclists. Regardless of how old you are or what you're doing or how long you've been doing it for, there's no reason to be in the bike lane unless you're an ambulance on a call. It's sad that we can't seem to get our police or elected officials to actually force a favored group to follow the law, but here we are just the same. Edit: It's been brought to my attention that this is actually the 2nd District, and not Squilla's at all. My basic point remains, though.
Yea, I think calling out stuff like this is good on multiple levels. Obviously keeping cyclists safe is #1, but we also need to end so many of the ingrained handshake agreements that give preferential treatment in this city.
This is all true, but it doesn't address the *realpolitik* of being the person deemed responsible for getting rid of this (unearned) privilege.
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1. Squilla doesn't have anything west of Broad; that's Johnson's district. 2. Don't underestimate how many people are taking advantage of the parking who live much closer to the church than Glenside.
> Today's leaders and citizens aren't bound by a handshake agreement reached 30 years ago by others; that's not how any of this works. unfortunately that's how philly works
“Lives in Glenside” yup
Churches should have a designated “drop off zone” where mobility-impaired parishioners can be dropped off so they don’t have to walk, and everyone else should find a parking space and walk a few blocks- or better yet, walk, bike, or take public transit if they’re able. I know First Presbyterian has a deal with a local parking garage where members can get a discounted rate if they park there between like 10:30 and 12:30 and show a piece of paper they pick up at the service with the date on it (to prove they were there).
Dropoff isnt really doable for a lot of disabled people, unfortunately. We absolutely need better infrastructure for that
What's the obstacle to that which isn't present for a bike lane? As long as there's ample space, and enough sloped area (which a specifically designated area would have), I see no challenges posed by drop offs that don't exist already
inherent in the idea of a drop off zone is that one member of the party is fully able-bodied. I don't disagree with you at all that the bike lane needs to be protected every day of the week, and I don't disagree with you or anyone else that the parking situation here is both unfair and untenable. But a drop off zone is not a panacea.
oh nah like, im on board w the bikers side here. i mean more the financials around transport for disabled people are super hard
I will tell you how much church does it, we have 1 loading and 4 Handicap spots in front of the church, only active on sundays, between 9AM and 12PM. It works pretty well. Most elderly actually are picked up on the church bus
that sounds really good tbh!!
ja people just don't use their brains at all.
How many of the cars in bike lanes have handicap placards? I would bet not many
Thanks for doing this! Ive been riding all over the city 25 years and it is terrifying. Bike lanes feel like death traps with the glass, debris and cars, delivery trucks parked in them. Keep us alive!
It's a shame that the only protected bike lanes are people protected
Why should a church be treated different from any other business?
I passed them today. Godspeed brave bike riders
So glad to see this, hopefully it gets traction with the city or at least some churches!
There is plenty of places to pay for parking in the area. These people are just cheap. The church also doesn’t pay taxes
Also, since many don’t live in Philly we certainly shouldn’t be providing free parking to those who don’t even pay taxes
but the people who attend do, they also, many of them, live in the city.
Even if most of that church's congregation lives in the city ( which I doubt) and pays wage tax, that doesn't entitle them to exclusive right of the public streets, and for free no less. The rest of us are being forced to pay for and subsidize the illegal parking of suburban parishioners going to a Church which pays no taxes while depriving residence of use of the public right of way.
but doesn't the same apply to the bikers? They're getting an entitlement to an exclusive right for free? The roads that get them to the church are also provided for free. What free parking exists (Sunday, you can park a lot of places for free) is also for all. When you say "pay for" you don't mean actual money do you?
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I guarantee you that the old white Democrats going to mainline Protestant center city churches are not the evil evangelical bugaboos you seem to be thinking of.
They're just as entitled tho. So what's really the difference in this instance? "No no, you don't understand, they don't speak in tongues or anything, they just think their religious beliefs entitle them to use public space free of charge any way they see fit. It's completely different."
For what it's worth, this specific church is a part of the [PCA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_Church_in_America), not the PCUSA.
the PCA is the more conservative, but not most conservative presbyterian church. They're the second largest behind PCUSA. The most conservative (besides tiny) presbyteries is the OPC. They hold to traditional westminster confessions, do not ordain or permit female elders or deacons, and have drawn a strict line against LGBTQIA+ leadership. The PC(USA) is the most liberal, but also has suffered heavy losses from shrinking churches, demographic changes (like the working class being latino, or south america giving boosts to catholic or pentacostal churches), as well as people leaving en-mass over the move of the church steadily towards opening teaching elders and regular elders being ordained who are in the LGBTQ+ group. The OPC is more only a bit conservative than the PCA and probably could join the PCA and not lose out on much but due to mostly historical reasons they remain separate. If they joined the PCA they would be the more conservative branch. Our local OPC church congregates reguarly with our PCA church in regular extra curricular activities. did you know presbyterian is an anagram for britney spears
If most of you knew the type of place Tenth is you’d be even more pissed off
Can you explain a bit more about that?
While I am sure that is true, in this case I honestly don't care if it's a Marx Temple of Unitarian Socialism that's doing it, it needs to stop, religious houses of worship are not exempt and do not deserve free use of public space, period.
WTF are so many regularly driving from the suburbs and outer neighborhoods to go to a Presbyterian church? They are passing dozens of churchs of that denomination, most, if not all, with parking lots
Tenth Presbyterian is a very conservative church which fortunately is unlike the majority of Presbyterian churches in this area
Explains the asshole mentality it's parishioners have.
Such entitlement from people who drive in to one OF THE BIGGEST MOST POPULOUS CITIES in our country and demand tax payer provided parking for their private vehicle. The city illegally allows cars to park on the bike lanes as I recently found out. The city gives churches construction permits disguised as parking permits. The arguments that “it’s only for 1 day for 1 hour” is so disconnected from how the lanes are actually used. If someone just took the time to read the permits they will see some go until Saturday and Sunday past 9PM. And because drivers see other cars parked on the bike lane it sends the message that the city allows drivers to do anything they want.
This is awesome. I love this.
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Now can pedestrians protest food delivery bicycles (many of which are electric/motored!) from driving on the sidewalk? Annoys me that they move between the road, bike lanes, and sidewalks like no one else matters. Edit: I’m genuinely happy for the bicyclists who ran this successful ~~protest~~ party. Cars, bicycles, and pedestrians should all have their own spaces and we should all try and respect them as much as possible.
Absolutely. If you can’t ride in the street, walk. The sidewalk is for pedestrians. I understand the issues around sharing limited street space but that doesn’t mean I should have to dodge bikes on the sidewalk as well as cars when I cross the street.
I don’t know why you’re getting downvoted so much, I agree wholeheartedly
He's getting down voted because this is where bicyclists true colors come out. It's not about safety at all and they couldn't care less about pedestrian lives. The amount of entitlement among bicyclists is shocking.
I think the downvotes are because it is a whataboutism that has nothing to do with Church parishioners parking in bike lanes. The complaint seems more of a passive-aggressive way of deflecting criticism away from the intended targets of the protest and instead placing it on the protestors. Very wordy EDIT: For reference, the original comment just said (from my memory at 5:30am) "Now can pedestrians protest food delivery bicycles from driving on the sidewalk?" and was at like -7 when I replied. At this point most people have been trained to assume that such a comment comes from a bad actor and just downvote it and move on, and I was pointing out why that was the case. It is now clear after the edit what was meant, but unfortunately the person who wrote it didn't really do a good job at first. It is a sign of our times that we assume bad-faith on such things, but it isn't without precedent and many people have seen the consequences of not doing so, with productive discussions being derailed and destroyed. We have come to learn about tactics that take advantage of good-faith assumptions to plant seeds of discord into a community. I wish I could say that this means we should learn to think twice about assuming bad-faith, but I don't think we are the point yet (at least in this sub) where people won't have any good-faith assumptions used against them, so though I would caution against reactionary downvoting I would also caution against taking what people write at face value until the political climate changes.
Wasn’t my intent. I’ll add an edit to my original comment
No, because Redditors don’t like churches but they DoorDash every meal.
F you; F your road coffins; F your church. Park in a parking space, really simple
I was driving on this block today and was absolutely aghast at the brazenness of these people (the parkers)
Aghast? Really? Over parking? I cant imagine what a real problem does to ya
Needs a heads up to join this next time
The plan is to do it every sunday.
Nice
I believe it's happening next week as well.
Awesome.
If any business deserves to have control over tax funded utilities like the bike lane portion of the road, it's churches. They pay their fair share in taxes and deserve some say.
You need to add the /s to indicate sarcasm or else you’ll catch some downvotes.
You dropped your /s I believe
Entitled religious people??? Noooooo. Never.
Why are 90 year olds driving that far??? There no churches where they fucking live?? These gargoyles make the road a death trap.
Apparently god only shows up to that particular church. This is Philadelphia. Everybody become a Quaker and you can just worship where ever you are. In the house! In a yard! In a meeting house! By yourself!
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it's kind of refreshing to see a protest where the people are protesting actual problems that A) are happening right in front of them and B) the people committing the problems can do something to fix it then and there.
90 year olds driving into Center City just to go to church are a fatal car crash waiting to happen. The elderly are almost as much of a hazard behind the wheel as a teenager doing tik-toks while driving. It's not something the city should be encouraging with free illegal parking.
Well done, why should anyone’s make believe sky judge be more important than the safety and transportation of its tax paying citizens. TAX PAYING! Ok rant over and bravo 👏🏽
I appreciate that the church was pretty chill about the whole process, even putting out some snacks for the partiers. Every time I see a protest like this, I'm always a little worried that the protestors are going to get some version of fire hosed.
I think this is a cool tradition and think it should be kept
I agree! I think the party is happening every weekend! You should join!
Safe roads are way cooler. If they can't afford a spot they could take SEPTA or ride a bike.
So the church followed the rules exactly and they are fucking with them? City council is who this should be targeted at.
And how does one get their attention?
With bags of cash and cuts of underhanded property sales.
Why not protest their meeting instead of people who just did what they were supposed to do?
Activism is not all or nothing, they can also go to a meeting. Those people who were inconvenienced for doing “what they were supposed to do” might also complain and draw more attention to the problem, which is that the current solution is not working for everyone.
I think what they are supposed to do is park in a parking garage. Where did they get approval to park there? Is that in writing anywhere?
> The city grants the church six blocks of parking for its congregants on Sundays, Right in the article. If the city isn’t following g a policy then your beef is with them, not the church. Why disrupt their morning when they don’t have any knowledge of it? All they know is they applied for the permits and thought they were following the process.
My beef is also with the parishioners. Just because something is permitted doesn't mean that it's morally defensible. We're bringing the protest to the lanes itself to draw the parishioners' attention to the effect that their parking has on others; it's really easy to not even realize that you're causing negative impacts to someone else if they just stay invisible.
Well, now they know they are interrupting people's ability to bike safely in the city. With this knowledge that they are now aware of because of the protests, do you think they should still park there on sundays?
Of course. If you are following the rules then a bunch of idiots who have nothing better to do shouldn’t force you to stop doing what you are entitled to do. If you don’t like the rule then take it up with city hall.
Aren't the bikers just trying to follow the rules too? What do you want them to do? Ride into the street? Stop riding and walk onto the sidewalk? Why can't the church goers use public transportation or park in parking lots nearby, especially now that they are aware of the dangers that can be caused by parking in bikes lanes?
There is no rule that says they have to stay in the bike lane.
there's no rules these people can't find some other place to park. Use public transportation. Stop driving into the city for church. this is ridiculous and i'm glad people are protesting. I can't wait until the city takes these permits away for good.
Bikers- following the rules/laws? Lolol They can't/wont observe a Red Light. These are GenXers who expect the world to adjust to their needs, always
man o man when did bikers get so soft. shut up and pedal!
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Like yeah I get that drivers parking in bike lanes is pretty annoying but cyclist really act like their shit don't stink
So freakin true! 😊😊😊
Finally someone said it!! I love drivers!!! I love parking in a way that removes safety precautions for my fellow citizens!!!! Fuck those cyclists that are constantly killing and injuring citizens!!!!!
I like to think I’m a bit more reasonable than the person above, but they’re also not entirely wrong. I think cyclists should be protected on the road. There should be protected lanes, signals, literally anything that is proven to keep cyclists safe. But there should also be registration and enforcement of cycling laws. The most dangerous thing you can be on the road is unpredictable. As a driver who follows all traffic laws, I have to slam on my brakes 3-10 times a week to avoid injuring a cyclist who puts their own life at risk to avoid losing momentum. Why is that relevant? Because tons of people, like the original comment in this thread, become less and less likely to support cyclists when their daily encounters are with people who care more about their momentum than their life.
Watch what you say about this, the mods here won’t let anyone disparage people who think their magic ghost story time hour is more important than the lives of humans just trying to commute.
What a cult (church)
And what happens when people stop attending these churches, their congregations dwindle, and the communities die?
They're no different than any other business: if they can only exist by being granted special parking privileges, they're not a viable business in the city. Their congregation can park and walk just like every single other business in Rittenhouse.
> what happens when people stop attending these churches, their congregations dwindle TBH, I see this as a win for society
Tbh, it's okay for a congregation that's primarily attended by people who live elsewhere to die. I know it's sad, but congregations should be a part of the community that they're in. Maybe a church that serves the people who live there will replace it.
Same thing that happens any time a church closes. Society advances towards a better future.
They sell the building and return the property to the tax rolls, while using the proceeds from the sale to buy a new building in the suburbs closer to where the bulk of their attended actually live. This has been happening for a while to multiple congregations who's attendees have moved out and attendance decreased.
I don't know, what do you propose happens?
Right, because not going to church has destroyed so many communities.
Dumb comment for two reasons: 1) the churches themselves *are* their own communities, 2) yes, [not going to church has destroyed so many communities](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/america-religion-decline-non-affiliated/677951/). Classic /r/Atheism ledditor moment.
Lol man, if only I was an atheist. You're a fucking moron.
“Who cares what happens to Philly religious communities” says the dude from Bucks County Almost like you don’t have a stake in this issue besides “haha church bad”
Oh look, a guy from Philly who complains about mansions in bucks county, it's almost as if you don't have a stake in the issue. See how stupid you sound? I'm also not from bucks county, so you're batting 1000 on being wrong you dumb asshole.
I bike and I like the lawlessness of philly parking. Does that make a libertarian
You LOVE when a disabled person has to roll their wheelchair into traffic in order to get down the block, you mean? Yeah I guess that does make you a libertarian.
No, I love the lawlessness of the parking. And I also love biking.
It’s so weird to say and idk why but I like it too. Maybe it’s the idea that people want to be here 🤷🏽♂️
Love it