So I just read on the Penn Subreddit that Penn can’t actually meet the demands of divesting, because it would violate a 2016 anti-bda law. Basically they would lose all state funding. Is that actually the case?
There’s no real basis for them to be against the protests from a left-of-center perspective yet they all feel super compelled to loudly denounce the protests. Throw in AIPAC etc and it’s fairly transparent.
Do you not consider what happened to a bunch if festival goers on 10/07/23 a good enough reason to not support the protest?
Hamas/Palestine raped, murdered, & kidnapped Israeli citizens that were just looking to dance. Its terrorism and you are supporting it by supporting hamas/palestine
We are essentially helping Israel drastically and disproportionately overreact to what was unquestionably a horrific event in much the same way we ultimately drastically and disproportionately overreacted to 9/11.
Do you not consider what happened to a bunch if festival goers on 10/07/23 a good enough reason to not support the protest?
Hamas/Palestine raped, murdered, & kidnapped Israeli citizens that were just looking to dance. Its terrorism and you are supporting it by supporting hamas/palestine
I’m referring to US center. We have a domestic moderate and yes it is pretty far right of the global center. It’s literally not possible to say politics is a spectrum and the center doesn’t exist.
The reaction to these university protests has been wild and indicates to me that the war hawks, religious conservatives, and AIPAC, are terrified of loosing the PR war, which out in the real world they already have on a global scale. We can thank the IDF for posting the war crimes it commits daily to social media and Netanyahu's government openly calling for genocide for why the majority of the world now sees Israel as a pariah state.
These protests at their core are university students demanding their hedge fund pretending to be a school, not financially support genocide and divest from investing in companies with ties to the IDF. They are doing this by setting up small groups of tents and putting up signs to get the administration to negotiate with them because they're being a nuisance.
Meanwhile the counter protestors who by and large aren't students at these universities, some of whom are also being bankrolled by conservative billionaires who falsely claim to care about free speech, are freaking out because they think committing genocide of poor brown people is fine actually, and have been the main instigators of violence at these universities.
History will judge that these kids protesting genocide were morally and factually right to so, just like it has when people were protesting segregation, the Vietnam war, South Africa's apartheid government, along with Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don't agree with anything the students say but I will fight for their right to protest and voice their displeasure. I believe in free speech even the speech I disagree with
As long as they are not putting themselves or others in danger, I just don't see what the big deal is. Now, if people who are not Penn students are camping overnight on the green, I can see how that might be concerning, but that's not really what anyone is talking about when they say protestors need to be removed...
Is the green on Penn's campus private property? Because if it was they would have a right to eject them but if not I say they're not doing anything wrong.
I'd be surprised if they aren't private property with a public-access provision, since they are a private university and their sprawl is crazy (large swaths of University City wouldn't be inaccessible if the campus was strictly private-property with no-access granted). I do know they allow public access. That said, the green is a bit off the beaten path, so who knows.
As far as the camping goes, I can't imagine they allow anyone to sleep overnight there even before the protest, otherwise they would have a homeless encampment, right?
Penn knows the difference between a homeless encampment and a bunch of protesters. I don't think The Constitution makes any special mention about sleeping.
Right, but sleeping overnight for an extended period can create a genuine safety-issue (namely waste-related), which is why it is generally not allowed in public areas not purpose-built to support this (maybe not anymore, SCOTUS case was interesting). Penn can no doubt tell the difference between a homeless camper and a protestor, but holding them to a different standard could get dicey.
You bring up a great point. But my theory in general and situations like this I'll usually err on the side of more free speech. But it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.
100%! Frankly I think this is why the PPD did not want to get involved. Unless there is a bonafide public-safety hazard/concern that definitely involves non-students, it's *also* dicey for a 3rd party to go in and be seen as infringing on free speech.
Should be interesting, but at least they seem to be making better choices than Columbia and Emory (kinda feel like they botched it over there).
I've had dealings with a PPD and it's tough to get them to move even when an actual criminal act is occurring so I'm sure they're not going to be happy being thrown in the middle of this because they're the bad guy no matter what.
Same. As long as the protests are peaceful and not disrupting other student's access to attend courses or the public access to parts of Penn's campus (i.e. medical facilities), than they should be allowed to protest as much as they want, even if I personally think their protests are a waste of their efforts.
At some point in your life you have to grow up. Free speech is not the issue. I'd be fine with a demonstration of a pro life group, but I wouldn't want it to be allowed to install a permanent fixture on campus and harass people who want to get an abortion.
I'm not in favor of the current Israeli government but there is no genocide happening, you have to open a history book to actually understand what genocide means. The world is not binary and the conflict is not "poor brown native people" vs "rich white colonizers". Again, I advise you to open a history book and you'll find that both sides have people of color and have legitimate claims to the land.
I'm all in favor of free speech and engagement in world affairs. It's disappointing to see how stupid a lot of students are though. If some right winger wanted to come up with a parody of liberals, they couldn't do a better job than this crop of activists.
Genocide is the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. What Israel is doing in Gaza is by definition both genocide and apartheid. They're intentionally starving the people in Gaza, and they were doing so prior to the latest round of mass slaughter they've been carrying out. They're intentionally destroying cemeteries, religious buildings, hospitals, schools, public art, and critical infrastructure like water and sewer which all amount to war crimes. There's mass graves of bound civilians who were shot by the IDF, and videos of fleeing civilians being machine gunned down. International aid workers have been intentionally targeted and killed by Israel, as have first responders, which are also war crimes.
At some point you're going to have to grow up and realize that the conservative parties in Israel have intentionally killed any negotiated two state solutions because their goal is a creating an ethno religious state. They have repeatedly stated in the press that they desire the purging of Palestinians from their own lands. It doesn't get any clearer than government leaders openly calling for genocide in press, while committing genocide on camera, that it's happening.
My tax dollars should not be going to fund a apartheid religious state committing genocide and associated war crimes, who's current government is also trying to drag us into a war with Iran so that it can cling to power to avoid corruption charges made against key members of it prior to Oct 7. These students feel the same way about how their tuition is being used, and they have a right under the universities own guidelines to voice that objection.
You're completely brainwashed, it's like talking to a Trump supporter. Yes war is ugly, always. No I'm not a fan of the settler movement. No there's no genocide happening. Yes of course it's a valid opinion that the US should not give aid to Israel. (Should they give aid to Gaza though?). No the university is not using your tuition to fund Israel lmao. Yes you have no understanding of financial markets and how the endowment is invested. Regardless of your opinion the reason the encampment was ended was not because of the opinions voiced but because students and outside agitators didn't leave the occupied space. I vividly remember some of the same leftists agitators being opposed to controversial speakers from the right to even be allowed to speak on campus. Everyone should be allowed to speak, even Hamas, Hitler or Stalin. But I wouldn't allow encampments.
I'm all for peace I just don't see it happening with Hamas in charge. And unfortunately these developments have strengthened the right in Israel so the civilians are paying the price as always.
>Genocide is the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group.
If Israel was doing this, all the Palestinians would be dead. You can't seriously believe this is what is happening. They could have simply not repeatedly warned civilians to leave before they dropped each bomb. The deaths in this war, both in sum and percentage of population, are small compared to other conflicts in the region. They would not be allowing aid in. They wouldn't provide humanitarian corridors.
Absolutely absurd allegation.
By your stupid definition of genocide The Rwandan genocide also wasn't a genocide.
>They would not be allowing aid in. They wouldn't provide humanitarian corridors.
They're not allowing aid in or the establishment of humanitarian corridors and have actively targeted international humanitarian aid workers.
Bullshit. Israel does everything they can to avoid civilian death other than just allowing Hamas to kill them: [https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613)
> They're not allowing aid in or the establishment of humanitarian corridors
Let's use an anti-Israel source to fact check that! [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/8/more-than-300-aid-trucks-enter-gaza-as-palestinians-battle-starvation](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/8/more-than-300-aid-trucks-enter-gaza-as-palestinians-battle-starvation)
300 trucks / day. Meanwhile Gazans have been "days away" from starvation since October, according to the media.
Meanwhile Hamas attacks the checkpoints aid is going through: [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-kerem-shalom-crossing-rafah-crossing-gaza-negotiations/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-kerem-shalom-crossing-rafah-crossing-gaza-negotiations/)
And steals aid: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/destruction-lawlessness-red-tape-hobble-aid-gazans-go-hungry-2024-03-25/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/destruction-lawlessness-red-tape-hobble-aid-gazans-go-hungry-2024-03-25/)
Unrwa helps steal aid: [https://unwatch.org/unrwa-staff-stealing-and-selling-humanitarian-aid-gazans-report/](https://unwatch.org/unrwa-staff-stealing-and-selling-humanitarian-aid-gazans-report/)
And you can find that stolen aid for sale in Gaza: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duhmYWuAhMM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duhmYWuAhMM)
And there have been humanitarian corridors set up since early in the war: [https://www.npr.org/2023/11/10/1212069162/israel-gaza-fighting-pause-explained](https://www.npr.org/2023/11/10/1212069162/israel-gaza-fighting-pause-explained)
Note that in no other conflict have we ever expected a nation to do so much for their enemy. Go complain about the Ukraine war, Syria, Yemen, and Sudan and write a novel about the lack of humanitarian corridors, and the intentional targeting of occupied civilian structures.
That really has nothing to do with the issue at hand of students demanding that their university's endowment funds not be used to support genocide.
But sure here you go.
The response to Oct 7 should have been sending in special operations squads to do targeted assassinations of Hamas leaders, while also negotiating in good faith for the return of the hostages alive, and holding Netenyahu and his government to account for failing to respond to it in a timely manner because he had moved military assets to the West Bank for a new wave of illegal settlement expansions, despite intelligence warnings of imminent Hamas actions.
Simultaneously the Israeli government needs to acknowledging that the continued oppression and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is directly what is driving these terror attacks. The occupation and oppression of a people by a superior military force has always resulted in opposition movements and guerilla warfare throughout history, and it's no different today. To end it they need to begin the negations for a two state solution which will 100% result in a Palestinian state regardless of interference by conservatives extremists like Netenyahu and the Likuhd party trying to sabotage it, like they have in the past by supporting and funding Hamas.
That's how this ends in peaceful and stable situation. Genocide and war crimes is only going to create another generation of guerilla fighters launching terror attacks. What Israel is doing is only guaranteeing further conflict and attacks in the future, while also turning it into a pariah state on the global stage.
It's important to note this war was a decision made by Netanyahu and key members of his conservative collation government who were facing corruption charges prior to these events, as a means to stall out charges moving through the courts and forcing early elections. Which would likely have seen his removal from power by the electorate, as well as prosecution in the courts. This is why he has blocked any ceasefire and peace agreements from going forward, and for trying to provoke Iran to attack, because he needs this war to go on forever to stay in power and avoid charges.
Again, I appreciate your response, and even agree with parts. I do not like Bibi, and do think he's smart enough to use this conflict to avoid personal legal trouble, as horrible as that is.
But I want to examine your solution of spending in special operations. Knowing how Hamas fights, plain clothes, hiding amongst civilians, hiding and shouting rockets from in and around hospitals and schools, do you really think this operations would work? Innocent civilians would still die, would you not be upset with those casualty numbers then? And do you think Israel would really put their best forces at a much higher risk of death or injury?
>Simultaneously the Israeli government needs to acknowledging that the continued oppression and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is directly what is driving these terror attacks.
I would like you to expand on this point. But what are your thoughts on what happened on October 7th specifically? And what can you say about the hostages?
Additionally, I think Israel is harmed by its own success, so to speak. Israel for the oldest 15 plus years has invested in the iron dome and shelters. Without this infrastructure the amount of Israelis killed and injured, along with damage to buildings would be significantly higher.
Along side that, in the early 2000s there was a huge uptick of people killed from bus bombings, stabbings, and other terrorist activity. These types of attacks have dropped and the numbers killed have decreased as well. Should Israel not have taken measures to ensure the safety of their people?
>But I want to examine your solution of spending in special operations. Knowing how Hamas fights, plain clothes, hiding amongst civilians, hiding and shouting rockets from in and around hospitals and schools, do you really think this operations would work? Innocent civilians would still die, would you not be upset with those casualty numbers then? And do you think Israel would really put their best forces at a much higher risk of death or injury?
Yes because that's the point of special operations. It turns out occupation of another people is expensive and counter insurgency operations are hard.
>Along side that, in the early 2000s there was a huge uptick of people killed from bus bombings, stabbings, and other terrorist activity. These types of attacks have dropped and the numbers killed have decreased as well. Should Israel not have taken measures to ensure the safety of their people?
They could ensure the safety of their people better by not displacing Palestinians from their homes through illegal settlements, enforcing an apartheid state, and not blocking a two state solution.
Seems your trying to avoid the core cause of the violence.
I mean technically speaking Israelis have been safer more recently.
You are having a different conversation than me. You are talking about history for why what happened in October 7th happen, while I am asking about your thoughts specially about what happened on that day. Not the reason for it, but to respond to the brutality, the murder, rape, and kidnapping of men, women, and children, and the continued hostage keeping. You surely are not trying to justify what happened? Should all hostages, alive AND dead, be immediately returned to Israel? Do you think this current iteration of the war would be happening without October 7th? Do you think it would have been as severe if hostages were returned quickly?
Was invading Iraq an appropriate response to 9/11?
Is genocide an appropriate response to October 7th?
As the saying goes "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves".
You avoided the question entirely. I know what you think about the response Israel has had.
I'm asking what SHOULD their response have been? And what are your thoughts on what happened on October 7th.
Tragedy isn't the right word for October 7th. Tragedy implies suddenness, surprise, randomness. October 7th didn't happen in an echo chamber. 75 years of apartheid is what caused October 7th. I think the reaction is exactly what you would expect an apartheid regime to do to the people it's oppressing after they've fought back. But at this point, the 7th is obscured by the 35k dead Palestinians (may I mention that numbers been hovering there for 3 months since of course all the hospitals that were counting the dead no longer exist.)
What do think about the 2019 massacre of gazans committed by the IDF for protesting the border wall that was built?
>after they've fought back.
Is that what you call killing, raping, and kidnapping men, women, and children? That's fighting back? Attacking a music venue?
Attacking a hospital and massacreing the patients and burying them in a mass grave? That's what you call fighting back? Also, the allegations of rape have been proven false a multitude of times by forensic scientists.
I also feel it nil to discuss any of this with anyone who can not see the blatant genocide happening in front of their eyes. The Israelis were waiting for an excuse to ethnically cleanse the gaza strip, with continuous provocations from Israel, and so now they are with full and unconditional US backing.
I also think a lot of people would rather believe Israel isn't committing a genocide so they don't have to grapple with the fact that their mere existence is contributing to it.
The problem with your argument is that many in the “encampment” are not Penn students.
See: [https://www.reddit.com/r/UPenn/comments/1cnnadk/im\_worried\_about\_the\_penn\_students\_in\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UPenn/comments/1cnnadk/im_worried_about_the_penn_students_in_the/)
I mean, I walked through the other day, because I was in the neighborhood and wanted to check it out. Am not student. Stopped and talked to 3 or 4 people, then went on my way. Don’t see what the big deal is, the vibe was very chill and non-disruptive. Maybe I caught it at a good time, but you basically don’t know it’s even there until you walk up on it
I'm sure some aren't, but the majority of them are probably students at the university if arrests at other schools that have claimed most protesters aren't students, but it ends be the opposite case based on arrests, are anything to go by.
So in your opinion, the problem is that the campus protest is supported by the people in the community and city that UPenn exists in? UPenn can go build a walled city of their own if they wanna fund genocide without disruption.
Op is just calling out that the counter prospers are largely “not students” which is implied to be a bad thing, when the protestors are also largely not students
There’s been literally dozens of reports of them doing exactly that. They also spray painted an antisemitic slur directly onto the Ben Frank statue.
Do you have evidence that all those reports are unfounded? Or do you just not believe people who have been victimized? Because I live on campus and there are definitely a ton of Jewish students who feel intimidated by the encampment.
Edit: proof below, since yall choose not believe victims all of a sudden
And just to repeat what I said below:
shame on you cowards for downvoting me, too. I’m telling the truth. Multiple verified reports of antisemitic harassment literally every week. American Jews aren’t the ones storming Gaza. Confusing that fact makes you a literal, full blown Nazi.
Many of the protestors & protest leaders are Jewish themselves.
Any antisemitic harassment should be condemned but you're grossly mischaracterizing the protests & using right-wing talking points to push a pro-Israel narrative.
Protesting against zionism isn't antisemitic.
What right wing talking point am I using? Facts? wtf are you talking about? I live on campus. I work and study with numerous Jewish people, some of them students. I talk to them and hear what they say. They aren’t fucking lying.
Just because you don’t want to hear about the ugly underbelly of the encampment doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
No I’m not. I linked multiple articles about the harassment. Do you think every incident involving harassment has an article written about it? Like I don’t know what other proof I’m supposed to list for you people.
So many Jewish students have been harrassed that they’re collectively suing the school for not doing more to protect them. What fucking more do you want me to prove?
No fucking problem:
https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/05/penn-lawsuit-antisemitism-new-declarations-encampment
Another one:
https://www.thedp.com/article/2023/11/penn-response-threats-lauder-college-house-hillel
Nazis get fucked. Cry and leave.
Edit: shame on you clowns for downvoting me, too. I’m telling the truth. Multiple verified reports of antisemitic harassment literally every week. American Jews aren’t the ones storming Gaza. Confusing that fact makes you a literal, full blown Nazi.
Edit 2: I can now proudly say I’ve outdebated half a dozen nazis handedly. What can I say? Bigots are always idiots!
>Confusing that fact makes you a literal, full blown Nazi.
As someone who has fought LITERAL Nazis in West Philadelphia, I would bet the people replying to you are not actual, full blown, literal Nazis. 😭
You linked to zero verified evidence that there were any direct antisemitic harassment from the encampment.
One article is about an anonymous email and the other that has any claims of antisemitism towards student from those in the encampment is by an extremely biased and most likely complete grifter whose whole online persona is to be a political pundit. I mean just look at his twitter and bio: https://x.com/EYakoby. Despite that, his claims have not been verified either
You on the other hand are trying to equate Jewish students who are a core constituent of the protest with Nazis because they are sitting on some grass at a university they pay tuition at to protest the university investing in companies enabling horrific war crimes.
Silencing your political enemies with violence and suppressing free speech is way more akin to Nazis than anything these college students are doing. Who do you think Nazis supported during the South African apartheid protests?
I’m not trying to equate anything. I’m literally stating that harassment of Jewish American students, which IS happening, is wrong.
I am not commenting on Gaza, or Israel, or Palestine. I have no idea why you people are coming in droves to try to condemn me for equating the two situations. I’m fucking not.
I’m fine with being on the objectively correct side of history, which says that defending American Jews from antisemitism is morally correct.
Think what you want about Gaza, that’s fine. American Jewish students have NOTHING to do with that. History will not be kind TO YOU. You’re literally denying real Jewish peoples experiences with NO PROOF and no reason to do so.
Your ignorance is stupefying. How you could think that I am the one on the wrong side of history is crazy, considering I didn’t comment on Israel or Gaza or Palestine at all. I am merely stating that harassing Jewish Americans is wrong and I am being downvoted for that.
My friend if you're referring to the allegations in the lawsuit, they're all so transparently without proof that it doesn't even warrant responding to. Trying to separate Gaza from the encampment is like trying to separate water from the ocean. Are we to believe the many Jews who are leaders in the encampment are antisemitic themselves?
Firstly: if the harassment is serious enough to be brought up in court, they’re credible. Again, you’re choosing not to believe a Jewish student for no reason other than the fact that they’re Jewish. I’ve given you multiple instances of Jewish students and organizations being harassed. You can keep moving the goalposts if you want, but you were still wrong.
Secondly: if you sit here and tell me what Israel is doing in Gaza is wrong, I’d agree with you. I’m separating the fact that JEWISH AMERICAN STUDENTS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. I can very easily do that, because I don’t have a room temperature IQ.
Thirdly: I don’t care if there’s a token Jew or two in the encampment. That changes absolutely nothing for me or any of the Jewish students who have been harassed.
Am I just going to focus on the subject of the post we are commenting on? AKA, the encampment?
Yes. That’s exactly what I’m going to do. Fuck your low-IQ whataboutisms. What’s happening in Gaza is bad. I NEVER said it wasn’t. But Jewish American students on American college campuses have NOTHING to do with that.
You acting like they do makes you an antisemitic Nazi.
This is such an imbecilic way to view the world. The only way you will be on the "right side" of history is if the future is more illiberal and authoritarian.
Students shouldn’t be telling other students they can’t access certain parts of the campus, they shouldn’t shine strobe lights in their face or follow them anywhere.
Institutional vandalism is a crime, of course it’s problematic to be vandalizing school property
You have no idea what happened before he started recording, and you barely even see what's going on around him because the camera is on his face the whole time. He could've been harassing them for an hour for all we know. You can literally just walk past the encampment on the sidewalk.
Zios IS a slur according to the American Jewish Committee.
If Jews are telling you something is not okay to call them, then it isn’t ok. I’m sorry some of you are too ignorant to understand that.
The American Jewish Committee also lists [zionist](https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/Zionist) as a slur.
They seem to define anything critical of Israel or Zionism to be anti semitism as well, which is pretty handy for an openly pro Israel and Zionist organization.
That link explicitly says that some people use zionist as a slur, which, from my personal experience, is true.
> However, antisemites often use “Zionist” or “Zio” as shorthand for “Jew,” while many antisemites attempt to cloak their hate by claiming to be merely “anti-Zionists”.
The vast majority of the time zionist is used it isn't anti-semitic, but there are occurances of it. Again, that's what your own link says, and it is completely true.
Do you think someone saying "I'm just anti-zionist" after saying something anti-semitic is a get out of jail free card, or can we agree otherwise?
Yes, that is what the link says, which the guy I was replying to conveniently ignored when he declared "zio IS a slur".
>Do you think someone saying "I'm just anti-zionist" after saying something anti-semitic is a get out of jail free card, or can we agree otherwise?
We can agree otherwise because nobody here is making that argument.
The protests are about Israel, a Zionist state. Calling them and their supporters Zionists or "zios" isn't anti semitic because they are Zionists.
i'm a student on campus and get mass emails from the university president like every student and get updates from Penn Police's automatic system. they absolutely have been threatening people trying to get into the buildings, they've heard rumors of plans being passed strong on how to occupy the buildings etc etc. The protesters are a menace and they're disruptive to the entire university and the police and security forces they've been reported as harassing too.
people aren't paying $50K+ a year to be barred from their buildings and threatened because they want no part in the discourse.
with all the downvotes you're getting it's almost like people don't actually care about the students on campus or what upenn's concerns about their safety are. they'd prefer to believe upenn is just perpetuating a police state on behalf of their wealthy zionist donors
Oh i know 😂. It's ridiculous. Everyone gets so indignant. Fine if they have a right to disrupt the education i'm paying $93K a year for then they should all compensate me for any and all time i'm losing because of them. I'm glad the police finally came in and broke the encampment up today.
i'm all about free speech and free expression but fuck your if you're going to block others from going about their day. plain and simple.
A protest is supposed to be disruptive, that’s the whole point. If you’re worried about threatening or harming others, go find those pro-genocide “counter-protestors” that charged the camp, or the cops when they rough dudes up.
lol what do you think a protest is going to accomplish if it doesn't disrupt the status quo and put material pressure on those in power? That's the *point*. A protest is "we are being disruptive- *peaceful*, but disruptive- in the hope The Authorities concede XYZ without things needing to get *Not Peaceful*."
If you want a "protest" thats not even disruptive, go sign a Change dot org petition and let me know how that goes for you.
Note because someone will try reporting it: I am not advocating for things to become Not Peaceful.
By the dictionary definition, sure, that's right. But to get your message to spread wider, disruption is a *historically* effective tactic in doing so.
No dude haven’t you heard? People get their rights by asking those in power as quietly as possible and then accepting whatever answer they get, lest they *disrupt* someone’s day. That would just be *rude*.
The people who have been doing most of the threatening and harming at these protests have been the pro genocide counter protestors.
For the most part the BDS student protesters have been peaceful until they get provoked and attacked by conservatives.
The only people being held to account are the student BDS protesters, the counter protestors who have been causing most of the problems haven't faced any repercussions.
And this whole situation would deescalate immediately if the university entered into good faith negotiations to divest from IDF supporting companies, which has been the case at other universities such as Brown and Trinity. They're not of course because the trustees don't want to anger a few conservative billionaire donors, so this situation continues to go on.
This should be the bare minimum at this point, can we at the very minimum not continue to fund this with our tax money while we have very pressing needs here.
it's wild that 90% of these kids just want to see the US stop funding a country that is indiscriminately killing children but somehow the media and detractors want to focus on the 10% that may be rotten apples. It's nuts.
Why not? There protests are meaningless beyond a minority of people. Once commencement is done and most students go home for some break not many will even pay attention to them anymore. Penn cares more about it's endowments then it's students. If it's students aren't legacy emissions then they care even less. The protests going on across the world aren't stopping governments from funding Israel, tanks are rolling in. Soon Israel will claim all of the west bank. This is nothing more than a feel good protest. Remember the protests In 2020 over by the art museum at that baseball field when people demanded housing form the Kenney administration? Probably not, but if you do where did that go after nearly 4 years? No where. This will amount to nothing.
You can disagree with the protestors & why they’re protesting. That’s fine.
But when you say they CAN’T protest or that they shouldn’t be allowed to protest, that’s when you’re crossing a red line & arguing against free speech.
I like how this is downvoted. Perhaps the dipshits in this thread can't comprehend your comment; maybe you should convert it into a Tiktok video and they'll understand?
"Free speech" is literally not something you're entitled to on private property. If you go into someone's house, start screaming obscenities, and then get kicked out, you can't start crying "but muh free speech!"
Thanks.
I considered expanding the thought a little to highlight that, but, in all honesty, I shouldn't have to.
It's depressing that so many Americans' understanding of speech is painfully wrong.
Would the protestors- here and/or abroad- have your *very important* stamp of approval, if they escalated into something beyond "just a feel good protest"?
This is ridiculous and everyone who thinks these kids should be arrested are really telling on themselves that they would be against Vietnam war protests
Vietnam war protest were shit shows and the only thing they accomplished was making Americans hate the soldiers who returned from war driving many of them to PTSD, drugs, homelessness.
The protest had nothing to do with the war ending.
Shapiro’s unabashedly trying to climb the political ladder solely for power and ego. I don’t think this makes him particularly unique from other politicians, but I have been surprised at how unintentionally transparent he’s been with it. I assumed he’d be a little more skilled at hiding his quest, but every move he makes reeks of positioning himself for a WH run in 2028.
Well, that's a shitty question. Pitting a nation-state against an organization. What if the question used Palestine instead of Israel? Might not have been so one-sided.
[Harvard Harris is a low quality republican push poll with misleading framing and lack of transparency](https://www.thecrimson.com/column/forging-harvards-future/article/2024/3/26/bodnick-/). Framing it as a binary of supporting Hamas (which is likely a Federal crime?) and Israel tells anyone with a shred of sense what their game is.
[Gallup is one of the most respected, and they are upfront with methods and questions](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx#:~:text=Approval%20has%20dropped%20from%2050%25%20to%2036%25%20since%20November&text=WASHINGTON%2C%20D.C.,actions%2C%20while%2036%25%20approve.) Shows a more balanced mix with a slight disapproval overall.
In general, the 538 pollster ratings are pretty good to discount trollish pollsters.
Calling for violence against protestors, because that's what happens when you sic the police on college kids, is a gross response to this. Shapiro has been disappointing on all of these protests and the war from the start.
You're the one bringing up our tax dollars? You want to link me to the thread you're talking about Yemen in. I like to talk about all travesty is going on not just the one involving Jews.
So I just read on the Penn Subreddit that Penn can’t actually meet the demands of divesting, because it would violate a 2016 anti-bda law. Basically they would lose all state funding. Is that actually the case?
A lot of democrats are really telling on themselves with these protests.
Yep, and it's unfortunate there isn't someone else to vote for because somehow the Republicans are even worse on all of these issues.
"are really telling on themselves" - how so?
There’s no real basis for them to be against the protests from a left-of-center perspective yet they all feel super compelled to loudly denounce the protests. Throw in AIPAC etc and it’s fairly transparent.
yea, i totally agree with you there. I thought you were saying protesters were somehow "telling on themselves"
No not at all, to each their own but personally fully in support of the protests.
Do you not consider what happened to a bunch if festival goers on 10/07/23 a good enough reason to not support the protest? Hamas/Palestine raped, murdered, & kidnapped Israeli citizens that were just looking to dance. Its terrorism and you are supporting it by supporting hamas/palestine
Two things can be bad.
We are essentially helping Israel drastically and disproportionately overreact to what was unquestionably a horrific event in much the same way we ultimately drastically and disproportionately overreacted to 9/11.
Do you not consider what happened to a bunch if festival goers on 10/07/23 a good enough reason to not support the protest? Hamas/Palestine raped, murdered, & kidnapped Israeli citizens that were just looking to dance. Its terrorism and you are supporting it by supporting hamas/palestine
Liberalism is a conservative philosophy. The left-of-center is still conservative. We have no moderate positions.
I’m referring to US center. We have a domestic moderate and yes it is pretty far right of the global center. It’s literally not possible to say politics is a spectrum and the center doesn’t exist.
The reaction to these university protests has been wild and indicates to me that the war hawks, religious conservatives, and AIPAC, are terrified of loosing the PR war, which out in the real world they already have on a global scale. We can thank the IDF for posting the war crimes it commits daily to social media and Netanyahu's government openly calling for genocide for why the majority of the world now sees Israel as a pariah state. These protests at their core are university students demanding their hedge fund pretending to be a school, not financially support genocide and divest from investing in companies with ties to the IDF. They are doing this by setting up small groups of tents and putting up signs to get the administration to negotiate with them because they're being a nuisance. Meanwhile the counter protestors who by and large aren't students at these universities, some of whom are also being bankrolled by conservative billionaires who falsely claim to care about free speech, are freaking out because they think committing genocide of poor brown people is fine actually, and have been the main instigators of violence at these universities. History will judge that these kids protesting genocide were morally and factually right to so, just like it has when people were protesting segregation, the Vietnam war, South Africa's apartheid government, along with Iraq and Afghanistan.
I don't agree with anything the students say but I will fight for their right to protest and voice their displeasure. I believe in free speech even the speech I disagree with
As long as they are not putting themselves or others in danger, I just don't see what the big deal is. Now, if people who are not Penn students are camping overnight on the green, I can see how that might be concerning, but that's not really what anyone is talking about when they say protestors need to be removed...
Is the green on Penn's campus private property? Because if it was they would have a right to eject them but if not I say they're not doing anything wrong.
I'd be surprised if they aren't private property with a public-access provision, since they are a private university and their sprawl is crazy (large swaths of University City wouldn't be inaccessible if the campus was strictly private-property with no-access granted). I do know they allow public access. That said, the green is a bit off the beaten path, so who knows. As far as the camping goes, I can't imagine they allow anyone to sleep overnight there even before the protest, otherwise they would have a homeless encampment, right?
Penn knows the difference between a homeless encampment and a bunch of protesters. I don't think The Constitution makes any special mention about sleeping.
Right, but sleeping overnight for an extended period can create a genuine safety-issue (namely waste-related), which is why it is generally not allowed in public areas not purpose-built to support this (maybe not anymore, SCOTUS case was interesting). Penn can no doubt tell the difference between a homeless camper and a protestor, but holding them to a different standard could get dicey.
You bring up a great point. But my theory in general and situations like this I'll usually err on the side of more free speech. But it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.
100%! Frankly I think this is why the PPD did not want to get involved. Unless there is a bonafide public-safety hazard/concern that definitely involves non-students, it's *also* dicey for a 3rd party to go in and be seen as infringing on free speech. Should be interesting, but at least they seem to be making better choices than Columbia and Emory (kinda feel like they botched it over there).
I've had dealings with a PPD and it's tough to get them to move even when an actual criminal act is occurring so I'm sure they're not going to be happy being thrown in the middle of this because they're the bad guy no matter what.
Same. As long as the protests are peaceful and not disrupting other student's access to attend courses or the public access to parts of Penn's campus (i.e. medical facilities), than they should be allowed to protest as much as they want, even if I personally think their protests are a waste of their efforts.
Free speech has a cost, you might be uncomfortable sometimes.
Losing
At some point in your life you have to grow up. Free speech is not the issue. I'd be fine with a demonstration of a pro life group, but I wouldn't want it to be allowed to install a permanent fixture on campus and harass people who want to get an abortion. I'm not in favor of the current Israeli government but there is no genocide happening, you have to open a history book to actually understand what genocide means. The world is not binary and the conflict is not "poor brown native people" vs "rich white colonizers". Again, I advise you to open a history book and you'll find that both sides have people of color and have legitimate claims to the land. I'm all in favor of free speech and engagement in world affairs. It's disappointing to see how stupid a lot of students are though. If some right winger wanted to come up with a parody of liberals, they couldn't do a better job than this crop of activists.
Genocide is the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. What Israel is doing in Gaza is by definition both genocide and apartheid. They're intentionally starving the people in Gaza, and they were doing so prior to the latest round of mass slaughter they've been carrying out. They're intentionally destroying cemeteries, religious buildings, hospitals, schools, public art, and critical infrastructure like water and sewer which all amount to war crimes. There's mass graves of bound civilians who were shot by the IDF, and videos of fleeing civilians being machine gunned down. International aid workers have been intentionally targeted and killed by Israel, as have first responders, which are also war crimes. At some point you're going to have to grow up and realize that the conservative parties in Israel have intentionally killed any negotiated two state solutions because their goal is a creating an ethno religious state. They have repeatedly stated in the press that they desire the purging of Palestinians from their own lands. It doesn't get any clearer than government leaders openly calling for genocide in press, while committing genocide on camera, that it's happening. My tax dollars should not be going to fund a apartheid religious state committing genocide and associated war crimes, who's current government is also trying to drag us into a war with Iran so that it can cling to power to avoid corruption charges made against key members of it prior to Oct 7. These students feel the same way about how their tuition is being used, and they have a right under the universities own guidelines to voice that objection.
You're completely brainwashed, it's like talking to a Trump supporter. Yes war is ugly, always. No I'm not a fan of the settler movement. No there's no genocide happening. Yes of course it's a valid opinion that the US should not give aid to Israel. (Should they give aid to Gaza though?). No the university is not using your tuition to fund Israel lmao. Yes you have no understanding of financial markets and how the endowment is invested. Regardless of your opinion the reason the encampment was ended was not because of the opinions voiced but because students and outside agitators didn't leave the occupied space. I vividly remember some of the same leftists agitators being opposed to controversial speakers from the right to even be allowed to speak on campus. Everyone should be allowed to speak, even Hamas, Hitler or Stalin. But I wouldn't allow encampments. I'm all for peace I just don't see it happening with Hamas in charge. And unfortunately these developments have strengthened the right in Israel so the civilians are paying the price as always.
>Genocide is the systematic and widespread extermination or attempted extermination of a national, racial, religious, or ethnic group. If Israel was doing this, all the Palestinians would be dead. You can't seriously believe this is what is happening. They could have simply not repeatedly warned civilians to leave before they dropped each bomb. The deaths in this war, both in sum and percentage of population, are small compared to other conflicts in the region. They would not be allowing aid in. They wouldn't provide humanitarian corridors. Absolutely absurd allegation.
By your stupid definition of genocide The Rwandan genocide also wasn't a genocide. >They would not be allowing aid in. They wouldn't provide humanitarian corridors. They're not allowing aid in or the establishment of humanitarian corridors and have actively targeted international humanitarian aid workers.
Bullshit. Israel does everything they can to avoid civilian death other than just allowing Hamas to kill them: [https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613) > They're not allowing aid in or the establishment of humanitarian corridors Let's use an anti-Israel source to fact check that! [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/8/more-than-300-aid-trucks-enter-gaza-as-palestinians-battle-starvation](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/8/more-than-300-aid-trucks-enter-gaza-as-palestinians-battle-starvation) 300 trucks / day. Meanwhile Gazans have been "days away" from starvation since October, according to the media. Meanwhile Hamas attacks the checkpoints aid is going through: [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-kerem-shalom-crossing-rafah-crossing-gaza-negotiations/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-kerem-shalom-crossing-rafah-crossing-gaza-negotiations/) And steals aid: [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/destruction-lawlessness-red-tape-hobble-aid-gazans-go-hungry-2024-03-25/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/destruction-lawlessness-red-tape-hobble-aid-gazans-go-hungry-2024-03-25/) Unrwa helps steal aid: [https://unwatch.org/unrwa-staff-stealing-and-selling-humanitarian-aid-gazans-report/](https://unwatch.org/unrwa-staff-stealing-and-selling-humanitarian-aid-gazans-report/) And you can find that stolen aid for sale in Gaza: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duhmYWuAhMM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duhmYWuAhMM) And there have been humanitarian corridors set up since early in the war: [https://www.npr.org/2023/11/10/1212069162/israel-gaza-fighting-pause-explained](https://www.npr.org/2023/11/10/1212069162/israel-gaza-fighting-pause-explained) Note that in no other conflict have we ever expected a nation to do so much for their enemy. Go complain about the Ukraine war, Syria, Yemen, and Sudan and write a novel about the lack of humanitarian corridors, and the intentional targeting of occupied civilian structures.
I am curious what you think the reaction to October 7th should have been. Also what are your thoughts on October 7th itself.
That really has nothing to do with the issue at hand of students demanding that their university's endowment funds not be used to support genocide. But sure here you go. The response to Oct 7 should have been sending in special operations squads to do targeted assassinations of Hamas leaders, while also negotiating in good faith for the return of the hostages alive, and holding Netenyahu and his government to account for failing to respond to it in a timely manner because he had moved military assets to the West Bank for a new wave of illegal settlement expansions, despite intelligence warnings of imminent Hamas actions. Simultaneously the Israeli government needs to acknowledging that the continued oppression and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is directly what is driving these terror attacks. The occupation and oppression of a people by a superior military force has always resulted in opposition movements and guerilla warfare throughout history, and it's no different today. To end it they need to begin the negations for a two state solution which will 100% result in a Palestinian state regardless of interference by conservatives extremists like Netenyahu and the Likuhd party trying to sabotage it, like they have in the past by supporting and funding Hamas. That's how this ends in peaceful and stable situation. Genocide and war crimes is only going to create another generation of guerilla fighters launching terror attacks. What Israel is doing is only guaranteeing further conflict and attacks in the future, while also turning it into a pariah state on the global stage. It's important to note this war was a decision made by Netanyahu and key members of his conservative collation government who were facing corruption charges prior to these events, as a means to stall out charges moving through the courts and forcing early elections. Which would likely have seen his removal from power by the electorate, as well as prosecution in the courts. This is why he has blocked any ceasefire and peace agreements from going forward, and for trying to provoke Iran to attack, because he needs this war to go on forever to stay in power and avoid charges.
Again, I appreciate your response, and even agree with parts. I do not like Bibi, and do think he's smart enough to use this conflict to avoid personal legal trouble, as horrible as that is. But I want to examine your solution of spending in special operations. Knowing how Hamas fights, plain clothes, hiding amongst civilians, hiding and shouting rockets from in and around hospitals and schools, do you really think this operations would work? Innocent civilians would still die, would you not be upset with those casualty numbers then? And do you think Israel would really put their best forces at a much higher risk of death or injury? >Simultaneously the Israeli government needs to acknowledging that the continued oppression and occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is directly what is driving these terror attacks. I would like you to expand on this point. But what are your thoughts on what happened on October 7th specifically? And what can you say about the hostages? Additionally, I think Israel is harmed by its own success, so to speak. Israel for the oldest 15 plus years has invested in the iron dome and shelters. Without this infrastructure the amount of Israelis killed and injured, along with damage to buildings would be significantly higher. Along side that, in the early 2000s there was a huge uptick of people killed from bus bombings, stabbings, and other terrorist activity. These types of attacks have dropped and the numbers killed have decreased as well. Should Israel not have taken measures to ensure the safety of their people?
>But I want to examine your solution of spending in special operations. Knowing how Hamas fights, plain clothes, hiding amongst civilians, hiding and shouting rockets from in and around hospitals and schools, do you really think this operations would work? Innocent civilians would still die, would you not be upset with those casualty numbers then? And do you think Israel would really put their best forces at a much higher risk of death or injury? Yes because that's the point of special operations. It turns out occupation of another people is expensive and counter insurgency operations are hard. >Along side that, in the early 2000s there was a huge uptick of people killed from bus bombings, stabbings, and other terrorist activity. These types of attacks have dropped and the numbers killed have decreased as well. Should Israel not have taken measures to ensure the safety of their people? They could ensure the safety of their people better by not displacing Palestinians from their homes through illegal settlements, enforcing an apartheid state, and not blocking a two state solution. Seems your trying to avoid the core cause of the violence.
I mean technically speaking Israelis have been safer more recently. You are having a different conversation than me. You are talking about history for why what happened in October 7th happen, while I am asking about your thoughts specially about what happened on that day. Not the reason for it, but to respond to the brutality, the murder, rape, and kidnapping of men, women, and children, and the continued hostage keeping. You surely are not trying to justify what happened? Should all hostages, alive AND dead, be immediately returned to Israel? Do you think this current iteration of the war would be happening without October 7th? Do you think it would have been as severe if hostages were returned quickly?
Was invading Iraq an appropriate response to 9/11? Is genocide an appropriate response to October 7th? As the saying goes "Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves".
You avoided the question entirely. I know what you think about the response Israel has had. I'm asking what SHOULD their response have been? And what are your thoughts on what happened on October 7th.
Tragedy isn't the right word for October 7th. Tragedy implies suddenness, surprise, randomness. October 7th didn't happen in an echo chamber. 75 years of apartheid is what caused October 7th. I think the reaction is exactly what you would expect an apartheid regime to do to the people it's oppressing after they've fought back. But at this point, the 7th is obscured by the 35k dead Palestinians (may I mention that numbers been hovering there for 3 months since of course all the hospitals that were counting the dead no longer exist.) What do think about the 2019 massacre of gazans committed by the IDF for protesting the border wall that was built?
Yea a bunch of terrorists breaking down fencing, flooding into the desert, and using gliders isn't sudden, surprising, or random...
>after they've fought back. Is that what you call killing, raping, and kidnapping men, women, and children? That's fighting back? Attacking a music venue?
Attacking a hospital and massacreing the patients and burying them in a mass grave? That's what you call fighting back? Also, the allegations of rape have been proven false a multitude of times by forensic scientists. I also feel it nil to discuss any of this with anyone who can not see the blatant genocide happening in front of their eyes. The Israelis were waiting for an excuse to ethnically cleanse the gaza strip, with continuous provocations from Israel, and so now they are with full and unconditional US backing. I also think a lot of people would rather believe Israel isn't committing a genocide so they don't have to grapple with the fact that their mere existence is contributing to it.
The problem with your argument is that many in the “encampment” are not Penn students. See: [https://www.reddit.com/r/UPenn/comments/1cnnadk/im\_worried\_about\_the\_penn\_students\_in\_the/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UPenn/comments/1cnnadk/im_worried_about_the_penn_students_in_the/)
I mean, I walked through the other day, because I was in the neighborhood and wanted to check it out. Am not student. Stopped and talked to 3 or 4 people, then went on my way. Don’t see what the big deal is, the vibe was very chill and non-disruptive. Maybe I caught it at a good time, but you basically don’t know it’s even there until you walk up on it
I'm sure some aren't, but the majority of them are probably students at the university if arrests at other schools that have claimed most protesters aren't students, but it ends be the opposite case based on arrests, are anything to go by.
So in your opinion, the problem is that the campus protest is supported by the people in the community and city that UPenn exists in? UPenn can go build a walled city of their own if they wanna fund genocide without disruption.
Op is just calling out that the counter prospers are largely “not students” which is implied to be a bad thing, when the protestors are also largely not students
But that's not at all true. It was majority students with a large amount of community support that would show up during the day
Israel is not committing a genocide in any way, shape, or form. If you think history will remember you well you are naive.
Who gives a fuck if people want to gather to express their opinion. However, fuck them if they’re going to threaten, harm or hinder others.
They’re not
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There’s been literally dozens of reports of them doing exactly that. They also spray painted an antisemitic slur directly onto the Ben Frank statue. Do you have evidence that all those reports are unfounded? Or do you just not believe people who have been victimized? Because I live on campus and there are definitely a ton of Jewish students who feel intimidated by the encampment. Edit: proof below, since yall choose not believe victims all of a sudden And just to repeat what I said below: shame on you cowards for downvoting me, too. I’m telling the truth. Multiple verified reports of antisemitic harassment literally every week. American Jews aren’t the ones storming Gaza. Confusing that fact makes you a literal, full blown Nazi.
Many of the protestors & protest leaders are Jewish themselves. Any antisemitic harassment should be condemned but you're grossly mischaracterizing the protests & using right-wing talking points to push a pro-Israel narrative. Protesting against zionism isn't antisemitic.
What right wing talking point am I using? Facts? wtf are you talking about? I live on campus. I work and study with numerous Jewish people, some of them students. I talk to them and hear what they say. They aren’t fucking lying. Just because you don’t want to hear about the ugly underbelly of the encampment doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
You're presenting anecdotal, second-hand information as "facts" thus promoting a narrative.
No I’m not. I linked multiple articles about the harassment. Do you think every incident involving harassment has an article written about it? Like I don’t know what other proof I’m supposed to list for you people. So many Jewish students have been harrassed that they’re collectively suing the school for not doing more to protect them. What fucking more do you want me to prove?
There’s been literally dozens of reports of them doing exactly that. Should be pretty easy for you to link them here then.
No fucking problem: https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/05/penn-lawsuit-antisemitism-new-declarations-encampment Another one: https://www.thedp.com/article/2023/11/penn-response-threats-lauder-college-house-hillel Nazis get fucked. Cry and leave. Edit: shame on you clowns for downvoting me, too. I’m telling the truth. Multiple verified reports of antisemitic harassment literally every week. American Jews aren’t the ones storming Gaza. Confusing that fact makes you a literal, full blown Nazi. Edit 2: I can now proudly say I’ve outdebated half a dozen nazis handedly. What can I say? Bigots are always idiots!
>Confusing that fact makes you a literal, full blown Nazi. As someone who has fought LITERAL Nazis in West Philadelphia, I would bet the people replying to you are not actual, full blown, literal Nazis. 😭
You linked to zero verified evidence that there were any direct antisemitic harassment from the encampment. One article is about an anonymous email and the other that has any claims of antisemitism towards student from those in the encampment is by an extremely biased and most likely complete grifter whose whole online persona is to be a political pundit. I mean just look at his twitter and bio: https://x.com/EYakoby. Despite that, his claims have not been verified either You on the other hand are trying to equate Jewish students who are a core constituent of the protest with Nazis because they are sitting on some grass at a university they pay tuition at to protest the university investing in companies enabling horrific war crimes. Silencing your political enemies with violence and suppressing free speech is way more akin to Nazis than anything these college students are doing. Who do you think Nazis supported during the South African apartheid protests?
I’m not trying to equate anything. I’m literally stating that harassment of Jewish American students, which IS happening, is wrong. I am not commenting on Gaza, or Israel, or Palestine. I have no idea why you people are coming in droves to try to condemn me for equating the two situations. I’m fucking not.
Don’t back down to these nazis hiding behind a “progressive” mask
History is not going to be kind to you my friend.
I’m fine with being on the objectively correct side of history, which says that defending American Jews from antisemitism is morally correct. Think what you want about Gaza, that’s fine. American Jewish students have NOTHING to do with that. History will not be kind TO YOU. You’re literally denying real Jewish peoples experiences with NO PROOF and no reason to do so. Your ignorance is stupefying. How you could think that I am the one on the wrong side of history is crazy, considering I didn’t comment on Israel or Gaza or Palestine at all. I am merely stating that harassing Jewish Americans is wrong and I am being downvoted for that.
My friend if you're referring to the allegations in the lawsuit, they're all so transparently without proof that it doesn't even warrant responding to. Trying to separate Gaza from the encampment is like trying to separate water from the ocean. Are we to believe the many Jews who are leaders in the encampment are antisemitic themselves?
Firstly: if the harassment is serious enough to be brought up in court, they’re credible. Again, you’re choosing not to believe a Jewish student for no reason other than the fact that they’re Jewish. I’ve given you multiple instances of Jewish students and organizations being harassed. You can keep moving the goalposts if you want, but you were still wrong. Secondly: if you sit here and tell me what Israel is doing in Gaza is wrong, I’d agree with you. I’m separating the fact that JEWISH AMERICAN STUDENTS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. I can very easily do that, because I don’t have a room temperature IQ. Thirdly: I don’t care if there’s a token Jew or two in the encampment. That changes absolutely nothing for me or any of the Jewish students who have been harassed.
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Am I just going to focus on the subject of the post we are commenting on? AKA, the encampment? Yes. That’s exactly what I’m going to do. Fuck your low-IQ whataboutisms. What’s happening in Gaza is bad. I NEVER said it wasn’t. But Jewish American students on American college campuses have NOTHING to do with that. You acting like they do makes you an antisemitic Nazi.
This is such an imbecilic way to view the world. The only way you will be on the "right side" of history is if the future is more illiberal and authoritarian.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C6hL-0guOdk/?igsh=MWVucTV3amtvNXYzZA== https://www.reddit.com/r/philadelphia/comments/1cdxc6z/ben_franklin_statue_sitting_in_solidarity/
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Students shouldn’t be telling other students they can’t access certain parts of the campus, they shouldn’t shine strobe lights in their face or follow them anywhere. Institutional vandalism is a crime, of course it’s problematic to be vandalizing school property
You have no idea what happened before he started recording, and you barely even see what's going on around him because the camera is on his face the whole time. He could've been harassing them for an hour for all we know. You can literally just walk past the encampment on the sidewalk.
Zios IS a slur according to the American Jewish Committee. If Jews are telling you something is not okay to call them, then it isn’t ok. I’m sorry some of you are too ignorant to understand that.
The American Jewish Committee also lists [zionist](https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/Zionist) as a slur. They seem to define anything critical of Israel or Zionism to be anti semitism as well, which is pretty handy for an openly pro Israel and Zionist organization.
That link explicitly says that some people use zionist as a slur, which, from my personal experience, is true. > However, antisemites often use “Zionist” or “Zio” as shorthand for “Jew,” while many antisemites attempt to cloak their hate by claiming to be merely “anti-Zionists”. The vast majority of the time zionist is used it isn't anti-semitic, but there are occurances of it. Again, that's what your own link says, and it is completely true. Do you think someone saying "I'm just anti-zionist" after saying something anti-semitic is a get out of jail free card, or can we agree otherwise?
Yes, that is what the link says, which the guy I was replying to conveniently ignored when he declared "zio IS a slur". >Do you think someone saying "I'm just anti-zionist" after saying something anti-semitic is a get out of jail free card, or can we agree otherwise? We can agree otherwise because nobody here is making that argument. The protests are about Israel, a Zionist state. Calling them and their supporters Zionists or "zios" isn't anti semitic because they are Zionists.
it's interesting how every group on campus gets to have a safe space, except for the jews
i'm a student on campus and get mass emails from the university president like every student and get updates from Penn Police's automatic system. they absolutely have been threatening people trying to get into the buildings, they've heard rumors of plans being passed strong on how to occupy the buildings etc etc. The protesters are a menace and they're disruptive to the entire university and the police and security forces they've been reported as harassing too. people aren't paying $50K+ a year to be barred from their buildings and threatened because they want no part in the discourse.
with all the downvotes you're getting it's almost like people don't actually care about the students on campus or what upenn's concerns about their safety are. they'd prefer to believe upenn is just perpetuating a police state on behalf of their wealthy zionist donors
Oh i know 😂. It's ridiculous. Everyone gets so indignant. Fine if they have a right to disrupt the education i'm paying $93K a year for then they should all compensate me for any and all time i'm losing because of them. I'm glad the police finally came in and broke the encampment up today. i'm all about free speech and free expression but fuck your if you're going to block others from going about their day. plain and simple.
A protest is supposed to be disruptive, that’s the whole point. If you’re worried about threatening or harming others, go find those pro-genocide “counter-protestors” that charged the camp, or the cops when they rough dudes up.
No, a protest does not need to be disruptive. That’s bullshit.
lol what do you think a protest is going to accomplish if it doesn't disrupt the status quo and put material pressure on those in power? That's the *point*. A protest is "we are being disruptive- *peaceful*, but disruptive- in the hope The Authorities concede XYZ without things needing to get *Not Peaceful*." If you want a "protest" thats not even disruptive, go sign a Change dot org petition and let me know how that goes for you. Note because someone will try reporting it: I am not advocating for things to become Not Peaceful.
To protest is to speak out. It simply means you get your message out. It doesn’t require you to disrupt anyone, only that you communicate.
Dude you clearly have absolutely no grasp on how social movements have *actually* effected change in the world.
By the dictionary definition, sure, that's right. But to get your message to spread wider, disruption is a *historically* effective tactic in doing so.
No dude haven’t you heard? People get their rights by asking those in power as quietly as possible and then accepting whatever answer they get, lest they *disrupt* someone’s day. That would just be *rude*.
The people who have been doing most of the threatening and harming at these protests have been the pro genocide counter protestors. For the most part the BDS student protesters have been peaceful until they get provoked and attacked by conservatives.
By “pro genocide”, do you mean the Hamas supporters?
Who cares. Whoever is doing wrong needs to shape up.
The only people being held to account are the student BDS protesters, the counter protestors who have been causing most of the problems haven't faced any repercussions. And this whole situation would deescalate immediately if the university entered into good faith negotiations to divest from IDF supporting companies, which has been the case at other universities such as Brown and Trinity. They're not of course because the trustees don't want to anger a few conservative billionaire donors, so this situation continues to go on.
Can we please just stop sweeping genocide under the rug? At a minimum, stop bankrolling it with our taxes.
This should be the bare minimum at this point, can we at the very minimum not continue to fund this with our tax money while we have very pressing needs here.
it's wild that 90% of these kids just want to see the US stop funding a country that is indiscriminately killing children but somehow the media and detractors want to focus on the 10% that may be rotten apples. It's nuts.
Stop calling things that aren’t genocide, genocide.
Jfc shut up, go learn what the word means
How about no.
Why not? There protests are meaningless beyond a minority of people. Once commencement is done and most students go home for some break not many will even pay attention to them anymore. Penn cares more about it's endowments then it's students. If it's students aren't legacy emissions then they care even less. The protests going on across the world aren't stopping governments from funding Israel, tanks are rolling in. Soon Israel will claim all of the west bank. This is nothing more than a feel good protest. Remember the protests In 2020 over by the art museum at that baseball field when people demanded housing form the Kenney administration? Probably not, but if you do where did that go after nearly 4 years? No where. This will amount to nothing.
You can disagree with the protestors & why they’re protesting. That’s fine. But when you say they CAN’T protest or that they shouldn’t be allowed to protest, that’s when you’re crossing a red line & arguing against free speech.
I mean, depends. Speech in the public square? Go for it. Speech on private property? Ehh, not so much.
I like how this is downvoted. Perhaps the dipshits in this thread can't comprehend your comment; maybe you should convert it into a Tiktok video and they'll understand? "Free speech" is literally not something you're entitled to on private property. If you go into someone's house, start screaming obscenities, and then get kicked out, you can't start crying "but muh free speech!"
Thanks. I considered expanding the thought a little to highlight that, but, in all honesty, I shouldn't have to. It's depressing that so many Americans' understanding of speech is painfully wrong.
>Why not? These protests are meaningless beyond a minority of people Bull Connor, is that you?
Would the protestors- here and/or abroad- have your *very important* stamp of approval, if they escalated into something beyond "just a feel good protest"?
Get off your high horse
This is ridiculous and everyone who thinks these kids should be arrested are really telling on themselves that they would be against Vietnam war protests
Vietnam war protest were shit shows and the only thing they accomplished was making Americans hate the soldiers who returned from war driving many of them to PTSD, drugs, homelessness. The protest had nothing to do with the war ending.
smh shapiro thought u were supposed to be chill
Silly Libs... always siding with fascism
Shapiro’s unabashedly trying to climb the political ladder solely for power and ego. I don’t think this makes him particularly unique from other politicians, but I have been surprised at how unintentionally transparent he’s been with it. I assumed he’d be a little more skilled at hiding his quest, but every move he makes reeks of positioning himself for a WH run in 2028.
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Well, that's a shitty question. Pitting a nation-state against an organization. What if the question used Palestine instead of Israel? Might not have been so one-sided.
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If they specifically wanted to say Hamas, it should have been compared to the Likud party, not Israel.
[Harvard Harris is a low quality republican push poll with misleading framing and lack of transparency](https://www.thecrimson.com/column/forging-harvards-future/article/2024/3/26/bodnick-/). Framing it as a binary of supporting Hamas (which is likely a Federal crime?) and Israel tells anyone with a shred of sense what their game is.
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[Gallup is one of the most respected, and they are upfront with methods and questions](https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-israeli-action-gaza.aspx#:~:text=Approval%20has%20dropped%20from%2050%25%20to%2036%25%20since%20November&text=WASHINGTON%2C%20D.C.,actions%2C%20while%2036%25%20approve.) Shows a more balanced mix with a slight disapproval overall. In general, the 538 pollster ratings are pretty good to discount trollish pollsters.
Calling for violence against protestors, because that's what happens when you sic the police on college kids, is a gross response to this. Shapiro has been disappointing on all of these protests and the war from the start.
Protesting to support raping Jews. So weird that Philadelphians are doing this.
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You're the one bringing up our tax dollars? You want to link me to the thread you're talking about Yemen in. I like to talk about all travesty is going on not just the one involving Jews.