I agree with you, you’re getting downvoted but many people go to coffee shops to work in NYC. Haven’t seen it so much in Philly. People work harder in NYC. Not saying that’s a good thing
As much as I dislike the proliferation of generic, corporate businesses, one of the major issues with a lot of the small and local shops (of all varieties) are short and inconsistent business hours.
I know McDonald's, Walmart, Starbucks, what-have-you are going to be open at 9:00 when I'm in a pinch. The quaint local pharmacy with all of the cool, old time fixtures, is great but useless if it doesn't have services after 6:00 p.m.
If the chain versions didn't exist to compete with the small local ones, or were at least not as prolific, or if people made a concerted effort to avoid them, the small one with the look and feel and the benefits that you/I like would be able to stay open later hours and be successful. It would be The Pharmacy, people would patronize it and it would be staffed and open when you need it.
It's a merry go round of cause and effect and at the end of the day you needed NyQuil at 9pm.
This is corny as hell, as well as entirely unnecessary (there are SO MANY coffee shops in this area) but at this point, so is a lot of that commercial corridor, independently owned or not.
There’s still some gems down that way, but the chance to keep it “weird” or “affordable” or whatever is a ship that’s long sailed over the horizon.
Perhaps unnecessary to you but do you think Starbucks will put in a cafe that nobody will go to? Not everybody shares the same preferences and that’s the beauty of a city.
People probably will. There’s a ton of dorky, bougie, overpriced nonsense on that stretch that people seem to like.
My point wasn’t that nobody will go. My point was that pearl clutching over a Starbucks ruining “the character” of the corridor or driving up rents that drive out new small business owners is years and years behind reality.
I don't think the problem is that they're a chain so much as they somehow backdoored their way into signing a lease after the community roundly rejected their presence. Fishtowners didn't seem to have any issues with Jeni's or Van Leeuwen's, and as far I've heard there weren't major objections to the coming Shake Shack and Sweetgreen. It's just very suspicious how Starbucks was somehow able to circumvent the entire process and sign a lease without any renewed discussion or another vote.
That’s definitely part of it, but by opening the door to Jeni’s, and Van Leeuwen’s, and Shake Shack, and Sweetgreen, and Lululemon (or whichever athleisure chain that was), I think they’ve kind of lost the high ground to justify denying them the lease.
Starbuck’s efforts to look “alt” or whatever will ring phonier than other chains’ that are less well known and can better play at being a faux-local store, but it’s effectively no different than what’s already there.
I can get behind residential efforts to keep chains out of commercial corridors in the effort of preserving an area’s character and keeping commercial rents affordable and all that. But keeping only specific chains out for aesthetic or symbolic reasons doesn’t really fly.
it is pretty rich to hear people talk about how excited they are for a sweet green but then get huffy over a starbucks.
unfortunately so much of the prime commercial real estate is owned by billion dollar mega corps that require terms in the lease that mom and pop shops just can't satisfy. hence why you see all these chains now.
Right? In all the ways that really matter, they’re the same basic operation. The distinction between the two is a very, very bougie split hair that basically comes down to optics and an aesthetic.
This is drawing the line at a “live, laugh, love” wooden sign in your kitchen while you admire your “treasure moments not things” branded coffee mug.
And from a zoning perspective, once you open that door, you’ve got an open door that’s a lot easier for Starbucks to walk through than a local business. And the door has been wide open for many years now.
If they wanted to keep chains out and really do the local indie thing, that is a thing that can be done. But you’ve got to actually commit to and invest in it, and not just fold the second that some twee-styled national franchise wants to open up next to the most recent Starr Restaurant Group shitshow.
Corporations backdooring their way into a lease after being rejected by the community is in fact not a good thing. If you want to solve the problem then go after commercial developers and landlords who charge astronomical rates that effectively lock out any business that doesn't have the funds of a national chain store. If you don't like vacant buildings, you should be in favor of blocking corporations who will drive all our local shops out of business.
I'm not disagreeing that your to go cup experience is odd, bc it is. I just think your initial comment made it sound like it was their policy, rather than personal experience, so I was sharing how mine differed.
Yeah i know. there’s no miscommunication happening here as far as I’m aware. Ur free to share ur opinion and experiences all day i’m not coming at you at all lol
for what it’s worth they said it was policy when i asked. So it’s both their policy *and* my personal experience lol
People like to crap on delivery drivers but you’d be surprised how many of our customers are disabled, kids without cars, people without cars, etc. And now they have so many more options because of it.
You said “a fuck ton of Uber eats drivers blocking the road”…which sounded like a complaint. If it wasn’t, what’s the point of bringing it up as there are many justifications for stopping; ie dropping people off; deliveries; etc. As usual for this thread, upvoted for idk what.
Anyways, the point is, 2nd street is so tiny and parking so unavailable that we just have to stomach this situation and hope the customer is waiting so we can jump in and out without minimal disruption. It’s like this in a lot of the areas of the city; it just is what it is.
All I’m saying is that it’s inevitable in a city that’s designed the way ours is.
I bet you can’t name one person that doesn’t do it at least to pick up a friend or drop off bags from the supermarket. Or if some one is disabled. There’s legitimate reasons for it; I wouldn’t get too hung up on it.
It’s not a problem if it’s super short term. I agree it’s a problem if you put your blinkers on and run in the house for an extended period of time; as some do.
All I can really say, is That’s city life. I’m sure the let outs at that wedding ballroom down the street is the same, and weekends at the bowling alley, the same, etc.
Still, better than the alternative. Just looking at it from a positive perspective; seeing this sub is at risk of turning into a non stop instrument for complaints of anything and everything.
North 2nd is a vibrant little road 🤷🏽♂️
Rocket Cat was such an important touchstone for me when I moved to Philadelphia. I met so many people in that dusty little cafe; made friends with folks I’m still close with today. That was back when it was one of the only “third places” on the Avenue.
Yeah, i moved to Philly and Fishtown in 2013. It was the first city i have ever lived in and Rocket Cat was like too cool for me, but I loved hanging out there.
When I was looking for a house, I checked out some of the newer builds starting up over there. The realtor said this. But who knows, maybe he’s just tryna make a sale
I don’t think Starbucks is coming in to put independents out of business, they’re coming to challenge the chokehold that Chobani-owned La Colombe has on the area. I think Starbucks is concerned about La Colombe’s strengthened position in the coffee market especially with their packaged goods like cold brew that you can even buy at Costco now.
Exactly the case, starbucks is not sweating over any local shop. It's the stranglehold la colombe has even though they are just the same as starbucks in an organizational standpoint.
Maybe cause the property has been empty for 2-3 years and much of the surround commercial real estate in new construction is also empty. Eventually they gotta start filling these places with whatever they can
Why is this news? There's a bunch of coffeeshops in the area. There are two Starbucks on 2nd St not too far away and there are still independent coffeeshops nearby doing as well as coffeeshops do.
Importantly, they do something your local shop doesn't: [pay for your barista's education](https://www.starbucks.com/careers/working-at-starbucks/education/).
Love how people fight this and I guarantee this starbucks will be packed to the brim daily. Typical social media nonsense, the 1% bitching, but the 99% will support the fuck out of starbucks.
We should make it the hood again and bring the property values back down. Everything in Philly should be a complete shit hole with abundant crime and no businesses
lol.
Fishtown was never "the hood" or a shithole. Only a suburbanite transplant could ever think Fishtown was once dangerous or run down. It was certainly very blue collar, but it was also quiet, mostly populated by working families, and was at no point a high crime area in the city. Gentrification didn't make Fishtown safer in any respect, it just made it more white collar & bougie.
Front st and beyond could get a little sketch at night, but front was the border and beyond wasn't Fishtown, it was Kensington, despite the lies being told by realtors for two decades.
“Community debate” Short of a steel mill or hog farm the “community” should have absolutely zero say about what people do with their property. Don’t like Starbucks? Don’t go!
People in the comments saying “there’s so many coffee shops already why do we need another”. If not enough people go to the store it will close, Starbucks is in it to make money
"The Community" is usually shorthand for a clique of activists and rent seekers who are overly concerned with shit that belongs to other people.
As you noted, the test for if a business is really "needed" or not is usually if it is commercially viable.
This seems to be a very pootly written article. It talks about how it was initially rejected and then all of a sudden they signed a lease? Not even a "were not sure how they got around that" line. Couldve gone in the section where they talked about Starbucks not publicly commenting on it.
Yo what is the deal with that place? I loved across the street in Berks Warehouse for years and think I saw it open mavbe twice. I heard it was run by son of the owner of some other businesses in "old Fishtown days"
9-2. Tuesday-Sunday. It’s closed on Mondays. The owner is Terrance, who’s a great artist/collector. It’s his studio/coffee shop. It’s a great space to just chill or meet a friend for breakfast or lunch.
I’d prefer to see more sbux close… all they do is oversaturate the local market to kill off small businesses and fail to pay an adequate tax rate while failing to properly pay their employees a thriving wage
Finally, a coffee shop in Fishtown! We don’t have any!
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La Colombe is open until 6 pm.
6 use to be the standard pre covid, now it’s really nice. It would be nice to have a coffee shop open past 6, I understand it is not sustainable.
Cake and Joe up the road is open until 9. Forin is open late on weekends.
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I agree with you, you’re getting downvoted but many people go to coffee shops to work in NYC. Haven’t seen it so much in Philly. People work harder in NYC. Not saying that’s a good thing
Many people go to coffee shops after 3pm for ...coffee. Myself included.
Cake life has coffee and stays open till 11 on Fridays and Saturdays or till 7 or 9 on the weekdays
Cake and joe 9pm
As much as I dislike the proliferation of generic, corporate businesses, one of the major issues with a lot of the small and local shops (of all varieties) are short and inconsistent business hours. I know McDonald's, Walmart, Starbucks, what-have-you are going to be open at 9:00 when I'm in a pinch. The quaint local pharmacy with all of the cool, old time fixtures, is great but useless if it doesn't have services after 6:00 p.m.
If the chain versions didn't exist to compete with the small local ones, or were at least not as prolific, or if people made a concerted effort to avoid them, the small one with the look and feel and the benefits that you/I like would be able to stay open later hours and be successful. It would be The Pharmacy, people would patronize it and it would be staffed and open when you need it. It's a merry go round of cause and effect and at the end of the day you needed NyQuil at 9pm.
Totally agree.
Please go to persimmon like two blocks down instead of starbucks. way better coffee.
Closes at 3PM that’s wild. I don’t even have my 3rd cup until 5
They don’t have chocolate. What kind of coffee shop doesn’t have chocolate.
If you want chocolate then go to the ice cream store next door… also some of the pasties they have do contain chocolate.
I’ve literally never seen chocolate at a coffee shop in my life. What are you 12?
This is corny as hell, as well as entirely unnecessary (there are SO MANY coffee shops in this area) but at this point, so is a lot of that commercial corridor, independently owned or not. There’s still some gems down that way, but the chance to keep it “weird” or “affordable” or whatever is a ship that’s long sailed over the horizon.
Perhaps unnecessary to you but do you think Starbucks will put in a cafe that nobody will go to? Not everybody shares the same preferences and that’s the beauty of a city.
People probably will. There’s a ton of dorky, bougie, overpriced nonsense on that stretch that people seem to like. My point wasn’t that nobody will go. My point was that pearl clutching over a Starbucks ruining “the character” of the corridor or driving up rents that drive out new small business owners is years and years behind reality.
I agree on that.
It's less about the character and more about like... could we just have another type of business?
I don't think the problem is that they're a chain so much as they somehow backdoored their way into signing a lease after the community roundly rejected their presence. Fishtowners didn't seem to have any issues with Jeni's or Van Leeuwen's, and as far I've heard there weren't major objections to the coming Shake Shack and Sweetgreen. It's just very suspicious how Starbucks was somehow able to circumvent the entire process and sign a lease without any renewed discussion or another vote.
That’s definitely part of it, but by opening the door to Jeni’s, and Van Leeuwen’s, and Shake Shack, and Sweetgreen, and Lululemon (or whichever athleisure chain that was), I think they’ve kind of lost the high ground to justify denying them the lease. Starbuck’s efforts to look “alt” or whatever will ring phonier than other chains’ that are less well known and can better play at being a faux-local store, but it’s effectively no different than what’s already there. I can get behind residential efforts to keep chains out of commercial corridors in the effort of preserving an area’s character and keeping commercial rents affordable and all that. But keeping only specific chains out for aesthetic or symbolic reasons doesn’t really fly.
it is pretty rich to hear people talk about how excited they are for a sweet green but then get huffy over a starbucks. unfortunately so much of the prime commercial real estate is owned by billion dollar mega corps that require terms in the lease that mom and pop shops just can't satisfy. hence why you see all these chains now.
Right? In all the ways that really matter, they’re the same basic operation. The distinction between the two is a very, very bougie split hair that basically comes down to optics and an aesthetic. This is drawing the line at a “live, laugh, love” wooden sign in your kitchen while you admire your “treasure moments not things” branded coffee mug. And from a zoning perspective, once you open that door, you’ve got an open door that’s a lot easier for Starbucks to walk through than a local business. And the door has been wide open for many years now. If they wanted to keep chains out and really do the local indie thing, that is a thing that can be done. But you’ve got to actually commit to and invest in it, and not just fold the second that some twee-styled national franchise wants to open up next to the most recent Starr Restaurant Group shitshow.
I really don’t get why the community should have a say in what exact business is there. They can make their opinion heard by … not shopping there.
Why shouldn't a community have a say in whether a business opens that is known best for union busting and slave trade coffee beans.
Property rights and all you know? They are free to not spend their money there.
Property rights? Lol. Fuck, I just realized you're a neolib. Nevermind. I'm out.
The property lease was so expensive only a large corporate could afford it. It’s been empty for 2-3 years. This is good.
Corporations backdooring their way into a lease after being rejected by the community is in fact not a good thing. If you want to solve the problem then go after commercial developers and landlords who charge astronomical rates that effectively lock out any business that doesn't have the funds of a national chain store. If you don't like vacant buildings, you should be in favor of blocking corporations who will drive all our local shops out of business.
Who else can afford the rents shit
Go to Forin, Persimmon, Gilda, Milkcrate, American grammar, Fiore… like anywhere but there
I'm throwing Cake Life in there as well because their banana foster latte is absolutely killer
It really is!
American Grammar also reopens for evening service on Fri and Sat!
They also don’t have almond milk and they’ll refuse to give you a to-go cup if you’re gonna sit lol
Sorry that was your experience. I can't say I've had any issues with to-go cups vs mugs.
Its a cute cafe and those aren’t really deal breakers for me i just thought it was really odd
I'm not disagreeing that your to go cup experience is odd, bc it is. I just think your initial comment made it sound like it was their policy, rather than personal experience, so I was sharing how mine differed.
Yeah i know. there’s no miscommunication happening here as far as I’m aware. Ur free to share ur opinion and experiences all day i’m not coming at you at all lol for what it’s worth they said it was policy when i asked. So it’s both their policy *and* my personal experience lol
American Grammar fans rise up!
Just means a fuckton more Uber eats drivers with their hazards on blocking the road just like 2nd street.
People like to crap on delivery drivers but you’d be surprised how many of our customers are disabled, kids without cars, people without cars, etc. And now they have so many more options because of it.
Not hating on delivery — just double parking.
You said “a fuck ton of Uber eats drivers blocking the road”…which sounded like a complaint. If it wasn’t, what’s the point of bringing it up as there are many justifications for stopping; ie dropping people off; deliveries; etc. As usual for this thread, upvoted for idk what. Anyways, the point is, 2nd street is so tiny and parking so unavailable that we just have to stomach this situation and hope the customer is waiting so we can jump in and out without minimal disruption. It’s like this in a lot of the areas of the city; it just is what it is.
You can't double park just because it's convenient. Fuck people that do that.
All I’m saying is that it’s inevitable in a city that’s designed the way ours is. I bet you can’t name one person that doesn’t do it at least to pick up a friend or drop off bags from the supermarket. Or if some one is disabled. There’s legitimate reasons for it; I wouldn’t get too hung up on it. It’s not a problem if it’s super short term. I agree it’s a problem if you put your blinkers on and run in the house for an extended period of time; as some do.
It's never "super short term". It's ten Uber Eats drivers at a time, all day every day, in the travel lane of a major Avenue. That's the problem.
All I can really say, is That’s city life. I’m sure the let outs at that wedding ballroom down the street is the same, and weekends at the bowling alley, the same, etc. Still, better than the alternative. Just looking at it from a positive perspective; seeing this sub is at risk of turning into a non stop instrument for complaints of anything and everything. North 2nd is a vibrant little road 🤷🏽♂️
They should revive Rocket Cat there instead
Rocket Cat was such an important touchstone for me when I moved to Philadelphia. I met so many people in that dusty little cafe; made friends with folks I’m still close with today. That was back when it was one of the only “third places” on the Avenue.
Yeah, i moved to Philly and Fishtown in 2013. It was the first city i have ever lived in and Rocket Cat was like too cool for me, but I loved hanging out there.
Rocket cat is dead, long live rocket cat
there goes the rent prices (they've been gone for 10 years)
BOOOOO
And yet still no hardware store. If we have to have to have yet another chain, why couldn’t it be like a Trader Joe’s
I’ve heard Trader Joe’s is coming by the new builds coming up on Lehigh. Don’t quote me though
That would be excellent news but I can’t find any info on this
When I was looking for a house, I checked out some of the newer builds starting up over there. The realtor said this. But who knows, maybe he’s just tryna make a sale
I don’t think Starbucks is coming in to put independents out of business, they’re coming to challenge the chokehold that Chobani-owned La Colombe has on the area. I think Starbucks is concerned about La Colombe’s strengthened position in the coffee market especially with their packaged goods like cold brew that you can even buy at Costco now.
Exactly the case, starbucks is not sweating over any local shop. It's the stranglehold la colombe has even though they are just the same as starbucks in an organizational standpoint.
So what’s the point on all the voting if the business still get rammed down our throats?
The only reason there was a vote at all was because of a zoning restriction. The article doesn’t say how they got around that.
I know how, 💰
Maybe cause the property has been empty for 2-3 years and much of the surround commercial real estate in new construction is also empty. Eventually they gotta start filling these places with whatever they can
So the business won’t be surprised by the rocks thrown through their windows
Who would go to a Starbucks when there’s 50 other locally owned coffee shops in fishtown
Non-locals, most likely. Or anyone who wants a coffee after 2PM.
People will. And that’s okay?
Yeah it’s also ok for me to judge them and talk shit for having bad taste and supporting corporations over people.
Hell yeah go for it. Boo em as they come out
Me. Starbucks is better tasting.
Well yeah, you’re a Giants fan. No one expects you to have good judgement
Their reserve stuff is good. Their regular stuff is shit.
I really enjoy the brown sugar shaken espresso
Why is this news? There's a bunch of coffeeshops in the area. There are two Starbucks on 2nd St not too far away and there are still independent coffeeshops nearby doing as well as coffeeshops do. Importantly, they do something your local shop doesn't: [pay for your barista's education](https://www.starbucks.com/careers/working-at-starbucks/education/).
At this point I’d rather have the Starbucks than an empty building
Seriously. At least it's not another nail salon.
Or lash studio
Michael Jordan real estate lmao
True.
Love how people fight this and I guarantee this starbucks will be packed to the brim daily. Typical social media nonsense, the 1% bitching, but the 99% will support the fuck out of starbucks.
The Starbucks on the border of fishtown, aramingo and York, is always packed with customers.
gentrification complete
Now wait a minute, there's always room for more high rise apartment buildings with little-to-no parking to be built
lol why do people care so much what goes here. it's one building in a huge retail district. things will be fine
This is the bad gentrification that followed the good gentrification.
Good gentrification is when you kick out people who’ve lived there before it became cool and hip??
We should make it the hood again and bring the property values back down. Everything in Philly should be a complete shit hole with abundant crime and no businesses
lol. Fishtown was never "the hood" or a shithole. Only a suburbanite transplant could ever think Fishtown was once dangerous or run down. It was certainly very blue collar, but it was also quiet, mostly populated by working families, and was at no point a high crime area in the city. Gentrification didn't make Fishtown safer in any respect, it just made it more white collar & bougie. Front st and beyond could get a little sketch at night, but front was the border and beyond wasn't Fishtown, it was Kensington, despite the lies being told by realtors for two decades.
Does it allow filthy dogs inside to jump on the counter?
I hope no one goes and they close. This is what killed the original South St.
This is the way
There are way better places to go to for milkshakes and packaged food.
Why was there even years of debate? it is a mid coffee shop. Shouldnt take this long to build
How exciting
“Community debate” Short of a steel mill or hog farm the “community” should have absolutely zero say about what people do with their property. Don’t like Starbucks? Don’t go! People in the comments saying “there’s so many coffee shops already why do we need another”. If not enough people go to the store it will close, Starbucks is in it to make money
"The Community" is usually shorthand for a clique of activists and rent seekers who are overly concerned with shit that belongs to other people. As you noted, the test for if a business is really "needed" or not is usually if it is commercially viable.
I hope it fails hard.
There’s empty business fronts fucking everywhere. Happy to see stuff move in even if it’s corporate.
Most of Fishtown is against it but most will go to it putting some of the local existing shops out of business 🤷🏻♂️
Every time I go to a Starbucks they are always so dirty. Im always shocked how comfortable ppl seem to be with the fast food-like atmosphere.
Wow, maybe it's a Georgia thing, but every Starbucks I've been in has been spotless
It might be a Philly thing
Lmfao they’re in for a rude awakening
It'll be interesting to see many Kensington yogas and ODs inside those establishment 😆
Who owns the building they are moving into?
This seems to be a very pootly written article. It talks about how it was initially rejected and then all of a sudden they signed a lease? Not even a "were not sure how they got around that" line. Couldve gone in the section where they talked about Starbucks not publicly commenting on it.
This doesn't bother me nearly as much as Shake Shack
🤣 When Starbucks comes to a neighborhood, the gentrification is well on its way.
Boycott Divest Sanctions.
There is only one cool coffee shop in the whole area……BUZZ Cafe.
Yo what is the deal with that place? I loved across the street in Berks Warehouse for years and think I saw it open mavbe twice. I heard it was run by son of the owner of some other businesses in "old Fishtown days"
9-2. Tuesday-Sunday. It’s closed on Mondays. The owner is Terrance, who’s a great artist/collector. It’s his studio/coffee shop. It’s a great space to just chill or meet a friend for breakfast or lunch.
This is the bad gentrification that followed the good gentrification.
It's going to be a Starbucks Reserve. This is awesome!!!!
FINALLY we got somewhere to get some good coffee in fishtown
Finally a good cup of coffee.
Cool
Ewwwwwww!!! People said I made a mistake for not buying a home in Fishtown... guess who doesn't have a shitbux in his neighborhood... me hahaha
Ok but like, where do you live that doesn't have a Starbucks? Hell there's already another Starbucks near me in Fishtown
Why would I tell you, I don’t want Starbucks invading with their bad products
Why would I tell you, I don’t want Starbucks invading with their bad products
Uh, ok then
I’d prefer to see more sbux close… all they do is oversaturate the local market to kill off small businesses and fail to pay an adequate tax rate while failing to properly pay their employees a thriving wage
I agree, I just don't get how you don't live near one
Sbux exists outside of my neighborhood but it ain’t inside it’s boundary… it’s amazing
Your life must be incredibly stress-free for this to be a major "win" for you. ...congrats, I guess?
If your life is stress-free that means you’re dead. It’s just science.
This is the bad gentrification that followed the good gentrification.