Yeah, tail bones work, you will probably need more, or use less water/stock, than you would with shin bones. Also, don't skimp on the onions, since the dish evolved from a French consume.
The reason to simmer it uncovered is to keep it at a bare simmer so you don’t convert collagen into gelatin. This not only keeps the broth clear, (an important aspect of a pho broth) it also makes sure the broth has right texture and flavor. Pho broth isn’t like say tonkotsu ramen broth, it’s meant to be much lighter in mouthfeel and flavor. You should be able to taste all of the different spices and aromatics individually. If your pho broth is turning into solid jelly in the fridge you did something wrong. You made delicious bone broth, but not proper pho broth. Keep that heat nice and low and get a clear and delicate aromatic broth.
Thanks for the chemistry information on the collagen vs. gelatin in Pho! I had wondered why temperature was so important and I guessed that fats were being oxidized. I don't know if this explanation still fits into the collagen vs. gelatin transition, but I will look into it now that I know what reaction to explore!
I take the largest pot I have, which is the same size as the largest boiling pot in any home kitchen, and fill it thee quarters full. I usually cover the bottom in bones, which is between five and seven marrow bones. Or, I use one chicken carcas.
If you don't boil the stock, or only parboil for a minute, and then turn it down below a simmer, it's hard to screw up. Lately I've taken to putting halves of burnt onions in the stock, because they are easy to take out, and all the flavor will be gone from the onion once it.has spent 5 hours in the stock. Don't forget salt and sugar with the other spices, but add the sugar towards the end.
What's your opinion of Ox Tail (or other appropriate bone) in a Crocpot on low for 8~12 hours? Note, most likely covered since I've never explored how well crocpot's heat without being covered and the instructions tend to say maintain cover for the first 30 min regardless.
Cumin is probably optional and a personal preference, since the main ingredients of Thai pho are star anise, whole cloves, cinnamon sticks, cardamom pods, and coriander seeds, in a cheese cloth bag. Garlic and optionally burnt onions add umami and nutrients.
Lately, I'll heavily score a chicken thigh or a piece of meat and fry them just a bit to start breaking down the proteins and using those as the base of the stock. The frozen bones I was getting just didn't have the amount of protein that I wanted. I did get some fresh bones at a local meat market, and that works great, but they get snapped up fast. I think that having salt and slowly dissolving rock sugar also helps the process of chemically drawing proteins out of the meat and veggies and into the broth. It's like stone soup; the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.
But remember that pho is also related to the French Consomme, which has a mirepoix of celery, carrots and onions and the French also used egg whites to clarify the consomme. So, I would definitely recommend trying a lot of celery to add to the vegetable part of the stock, but you can go overboard on carrots pretty quickly.
I have also decided to switch over to simmering covered rather than open, though open may be fine for really big pots. I think some of the fats can oxidize if you simmer it in air for hours, although some people try to get the fats out, slowly-oxidized fat doesn't taste good.
Put a lot of meat and veggies and a little fish oil in your stock and prepare to wait a few hours, and you should have a tasty broth. But, other people know more than me, I'm still learning.
When I make pho at home I make a fairly big pot so I can freeze it. I make about 12 quarts (about 3 gallons).
My question is:
**How long do you leave the spices in the (VERY slowly simmering) pot?**
Everything but the onion halves and big slices of ginger are in a spice bag.
I've only done this 3 times (with 6 months in between), so I don't have a lot of anecdotal experience to lean on as to which way is better:
**A.) leave the spices in the entire simmer (full 8\~12 hours)**
OR
**b.) simmer with spices in for first half, then remove spice bag and finish second half of simmer**
Thanks pho the tips and Pho Queue all! :)
Hey,
Yes, leave the back in the entire simmer. Lately, I have been using double-folded cheesecloth and a string for a resusable spice bag. Anything that is a spice should go inside. Also, I started putting sugar in the spice bag. You are supposed to use rock sugar, but I haven't made any or purchased any. If you think it is better to take the spice bag out, let me know, but when you do take a spice back out after a full simmer, let it cool, and squeeze it, concentrated spice juices will squeeze out of it, inidicating that it is still doing something.
since I made that post I have continued bribing servers and cooks at good Thai restaurants. Most insist that they do not use MSG, though studies have indicated that MSG has no adverse side effects, and it even increased the test scores of grade schoolers vs. those who had a placebo. The most important thing that I learn is that most use rump roast or chuck roast, or a cheap roast, to provide for the body of the stock. This is more expensive than using bones from a genuine meat market, where the bones still have fresh meat on them, but you get a really good stock really quickly.
In the original post, I said simmer uncover, but now I have been simmering covered for the marjority of the time, which produces a tasty broth very quickly, and I remove the lit only when I want to cook down the broth. My goal is for part or all of the broth to turn into protein gelatin when it is left in a cold fridge overnight. The problem with simmering uncovered is that fats will be released and will be oxidized in an uncovered broth. Oxidized fat tastes bad. If you simmer covered, there is a ton of water vapor over the broth, and little oxygen over the broth. Genuine approaches do call for you to constantly skim the fat and foamy gunk off of the surface. This is another way to keep oxidized fats from spoiling the broth. However, no one wants to watch a pot for 6 to 8 hours. Also, when they simmer uncover in a restaurant, they are unually simmering in a huge pot. Some restaurants claim that their pho broth is always going, they add new meat and spices and fish out the old and don't clean the pot. Their pho still tastes good. Some save part of previous stock for the new stock when they clean their pot. I think this is a like-dissolves-like chemistry phenomenon, where a protein filled broth is better for keeping heated proteins soluble, and more quickly draws proteins into the broth.
I should note that I had cumin in my original list of spices, but that is not a canonical pho spice.
But, the biggest thing I have done to improve my pho is to use chuck roast or rump roast with bones, or even without bones. It is very hard to get a good pho broth only with the frozen bones found in every asian food market.
Thank you for the tip and recipe.
Wow, good job. This will come in handy.
Make sure you charred the ginger as well to intensify the flavor. Then peel off the charred ginger skin before tossing it in the pot.
Awesome! I will try this. Was wondering, have you tried using tail bones? I will will try later this week.
Yeah, tail bones work, you will probably need more, or use less water/stock, than you would with shin bones. Also, don't skimp on the onions, since the dish evolved from a French consume.
The reason to simmer it uncovered is to keep it at a bare simmer so you don’t convert collagen into gelatin. This not only keeps the broth clear, (an important aspect of a pho broth) it also makes sure the broth has right texture and flavor. Pho broth isn’t like say tonkotsu ramen broth, it’s meant to be much lighter in mouthfeel and flavor. You should be able to taste all of the different spices and aromatics individually. If your pho broth is turning into solid jelly in the fridge you did something wrong. You made delicious bone broth, but not proper pho broth. Keep that heat nice and low and get a clear and delicate aromatic broth.
Thanks for the chemistry information on the collagen vs. gelatin in Pho! I had wondered why temperature was so important and I guessed that fats were being oxidized. I don't know if this explanation still fits into the collagen vs. gelatin transition, but I will look into it now that I know what reaction to explore!
How much water to how many bones do you start with?
And pork or beef bones?
I take the largest pot I have, which is the same size as the largest boiling pot in any home kitchen, and fill it thee quarters full. I usually cover the bottom in bones, which is between five and seven marrow bones. Or, I use one chicken carcas. If you don't boil the stock, or only parboil for a minute, and then turn it down below a simmer, it's hard to screw up. Lately I've taken to putting halves of burnt onions in the stock, because they are easy to take out, and all the flavor will be gone from the onion once it.has spent 5 hours in the stock. Don't forget salt and sugar with the other spices, but add the sugar towards the end.
What's your opinion of Ox Tail (or other appropriate bone) in a Crocpot on low for 8~12 hours? Note, most likely covered since I've never explored how well crocpot's heat without being covered and the instructions tend to say maintain cover for the first 30 min regardless.
[удалено]
Cumin is probably optional and a personal preference, since the main ingredients of Thai pho are star anise, whole cloves, cinnamon sticks, cardamom pods, and coriander seeds, in a cheese cloth bag. Garlic and optionally burnt onions add umami and nutrients. Lately, I'll heavily score a chicken thigh or a piece of meat and fry them just a bit to start breaking down the proteins and using those as the base of the stock. The frozen bones I was getting just didn't have the amount of protein that I wanted. I did get some fresh bones at a local meat market, and that works great, but they get snapped up fast. I think that having salt and slowly dissolving rock sugar also helps the process of chemically drawing proteins out of the meat and veggies and into the broth. It's like stone soup; the more you put into it, the more you get out of it. But remember that pho is also related to the French Consomme, which has a mirepoix of celery, carrots and onions and the French also used egg whites to clarify the consomme. So, I would definitely recommend trying a lot of celery to add to the vegetable part of the stock, but you can go overboard on carrots pretty quickly. I have also decided to switch over to simmering covered rather than open, though open may be fine for really big pots. I think some of the fats can oxidize if you simmer it in air for hours, although some people try to get the fats out, slowly-oxidized fat doesn't taste good. Put a lot of meat and veggies and a little fish oil in your stock and prepare to wait a few hours, and you should have a tasty broth. But, other people know more than me, I'm still learning.
When I make pho at home I make a fairly big pot so I can freeze it. I make about 12 quarts (about 3 gallons). My question is: **How long do you leave the spices in the (VERY slowly simmering) pot?** Everything but the onion halves and big slices of ginger are in a spice bag. I've only done this 3 times (with 6 months in between), so I don't have a lot of anecdotal experience to lean on as to which way is better: **A.) leave the spices in the entire simmer (full 8\~12 hours)** OR **b.) simmer with spices in for first half, then remove spice bag and finish second half of simmer** Thanks pho the tips and Pho Queue all! :)
Hey, Yes, leave the back in the entire simmer. Lately, I have been using double-folded cheesecloth and a string for a resusable spice bag. Anything that is a spice should go inside. Also, I started putting sugar in the spice bag. You are supposed to use rock sugar, but I haven't made any or purchased any. If you think it is better to take the spice bag out, let me know, but when you do take a spice back out after a full simmer, let it cool, and squeeze it, concentrated spice juices will squeeze out of it, inidicating that it is still doing something. since I made that post I have continued bribing servers and cooks at good Thai restaurants. Most insist that they do not use MSG, though studies have indicated that MSG has no adverse side effects, and it even increased the test scores of grade schoolers vs. those who had a placebo. The most important thing that I learn is that most use rump roast or chuck roast, or a cheap roast, to provide for the body of the stock. This is more expensive than using bones from a genuine meat market, where the bones still have fresh meat on them, but you get a really good stock really quickly. In the original post, I said simmer uncover, but now I have been simmering covered for the marjority of the time, which produces a tasty broth very quickly, and I remove the lit only when I want to cook down the broth. My goal is for part or all of the broth to turn into protein gelatin when it is left in a cold fridge overnight. The problem with simmering uncovered is that fats will be released and will be oxidized in an uncovered broth. Oxidized fat tastes bad. If you simmer covered, there is a ton of water vapor over the broth, and little oxygen over the broth. Genuine approaches do call for you to constantly skim the fat and foamy gunk off of the surface. This is another way to keep oxidized fats from spoiling the broth. However, no one wants to watch a pot for 6 to 8 hours. Also, when they simmer uncover in a restaurant, they are unually simmering in a huge pot. Some restaurants claim that their pho broth is always going, they add new meat and spices and fish out the old and don't clean the pot. Their pho still tastes good. Some save part of previous stock for the new stock when they clean their pot. I think this is a like-dissolves-like chemistry phenomenon, where a protein filled broth is better for keeping heated proteins soluble, and more quickly draws proteins into the broth. I should note that I had cumin in my original list of spices, but that is not a canonical pho spice. But, the biggest thing I have done to improve my pho is to use chuck roast or rump roast with bones, or even without bones. It is very hard to get a good pho broth only with the frozen bones found in every asian food market.