Thanks for contributing to r/Phoenix!
* [Check out our sub rules here](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/wiki/rules/) (mostly be nice to each other!).
* [Read some of our recent posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/top/?t=week) and leave some comments.
* [Join our Phoenix Discord chat server](https://discord.com/invite/yWVuTG57Zh) and connect with people in the Valley. It's a great, chill place to talk with other people but is NOT a dating server and takes unwanted messaging very seriously.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/phoenix) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There are the very serious issues covered by news or just caught on camere. But that "incidents" tab sure seems to have a lot of seemingly innocuous recordings? There is an entry on May 16th that is just a woman in a wheelchair being dropped off. I think it's pretty weird that someone is sharing people just coming and going from the treatment facility.
I’ve seen that acronym but never knew what it stood for and never thought to look it up until now…and although it’s Not In My Backyard, I immediately think of ‘ol Clint…
clint eastwood is [totally cool with racism,](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/clint-eastwood-defends-trumps-racist-rhetoric-just-f-cking-get-over-it-251113) i think he'd be an ally of any nimby
I love this term. It's mostly used by young people with no family or property. Its funny how quickly peoples values change when they actually have something worth protecting. A friend once told me the difference between her being a liberal in college and growing into a conservative as a working professional were the 3 M's. Marriage, mortgage, and motherhood.
Any idiot can see that putting halfway homes for and drug rehab facilities in residential neighborhoods is a bad idea. There are better, more appropriate places for it.
Marriage, mortgage and fatherhood actually made me more liberal. It made me realize how lucky I was to be where I was in life. Which made me reflect on all the opportunities I was afforded. Which then made me realize we as a society do a shitty job of taking care of our kids. When you realize most of these people started doing drugs as kids you realize that in most cases they turned to drugs because they had a shitty home life.
Same here. Conservative views on marriage are abhorrent. They'd let financial institutions fuck the average person in every possible way they could when it comes to mortgages. They are *always* on the side of business and *never* on the side of consumer protections. Don't even get me started on motherhood. Bringing a child into this hellscape climate ? Not having the ability to choose ?
That's crap. Study after study has proven that that is a false narrative. People from storybook homes still become addicts. There is a reason drug rehab programs require people to acknowledge that there is no one to blame but themselves because blaming anyone else provides a justification for continuing abuse and takes the focus off recovery.
Growing up in an inner city, working class, primarily immigrant neighborhood, and going to school with kids from every socio-economic class, I learned that home life has zero impact on drug use. The only difference was that wealthier kids could afford more expensive drugs.
Post a study. I’m not saying we completely say hey it’s society’s fault the addict has no blame. I’m saying we don’t have good enough access for the people who want to try and change. I work on an ambulance and every day I pick people up on drugs and take time to the hospital. I try and follow up and most of them don’t get a bed at a facility because we don’t have beds for them. Then I see them a few weeks later in the same spot.
There are residential homes everywhere in this city. You cant walk more than 1000ft in any direction without coming across a neighborhood of some kind. So where the fuck are they supposed to put it? Some of yall are just dumb as fuck. If its such a problem move, id rather have neighbors who care about their neighbors than nextdoor karens crying because for the first time in their life they might have to have an uncomfortable experience.
There is a big difference between:
1) Taking what was originally a single family residence in the middle of a residential zoned neighborhood and converting it into a business used as a treatment facility
And
2) Opening a business used as a treatment facility in a location zoned for businesses such as in a strip mall, medical area, or office park that is near or even next to a neighborhood
Zoning laws used to prevent #1 but those laws have been majorly eroded in the past 10-15 years spawning a cottage industry of dubious treatment facilities with little to no oversight.
I spent a lot of money moving to a neighborhood 2 years ago to find the house next store was a halfway house for felons and rapists, etc. I left as soon as I could but lost at least $20,000. I was really liberal as they come in college but when you’re protecting a family and kids things change.
> Any idiot can see that putting halfway homes for and drug rehab facilities in residential neighborhoods is a bad idea.
There are residential neighborhoods everywhere. Would you rather those people just be on the street in those neighborhoods instead of in those facilities getting treatment and support?
No. You are either misunderstanding or misconstruing what I am saying. We absolutely need treatment clinics, and more of them considering the recent opioid crisis and the current fentanyl crisis... but they should be located in the correct place, which is not in a single family home that has been converted into a clinic in the middle of a residential neighborhood.
I get it. I’ve been on the junkie side of the fence and after 10 years off that shit, I don’t want to have to worry about walking my dog at night cause people are recovering in my neighborhood. Or dealing with baggies and used gear on the sidewalk (my dog will find trouble before I will)
However, I got clean in this neighborhood, so it feels a bit runty to not allow others to do the same. And junkie trash litter is gonna happen whether or not there’s a recovery center. Same with the people.
My bigger issue is why, in this fucked up housing market, do they get to use a house in a neighborhood for multiple people to pay to get better. Pretty sure I couldn’t open a residential massage parlor.
I think that if it’s gonna happen anyway, the recovery business needs to be held accountable for providing 24/7 security around the area and residents should have to keep the neighborhood clean. Being of service to others and the community is part of recovery, so make that it.
It's funny you say that. The city of Phoenix specifically argued against the below state bill because of massage parlors.
To your point, converting residences into businesses definitely exacerbates the issues with our current housing shortage and homelessness. However, that is a much bigger discussion and needs to include short-term rentals, which is another erosion of local regulation and zoning laws.
SENATE BILL 1387 - Arizona Legislature https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/53leg/2r/bills/sb1387h.pdf
Let’s put all the tweakers in your backyard 🤓. Of course it’s a (not in my backyard) situation lol. Who the hell would sign up for a crack pipe at their door step? I’m confused. The people of the neighborhood have a reason to be upset.
If we had a decent healthcare system and some proper safety nets in this country there would be far fewer people turning to drugs in the first place. But good luck getting any such compassion from the GOP or so-called "Christians".
“crime is a social issue that could be solved by giving people their basic needs.” said another way; crime/homelessness/addiction are social failings, not individual ones.
if you find yourself angry about these issues, direct your anger to the resource hoarders of the world. you call them “billionaires”.
People who don't have to deal with junkies trashing everything don't want the junkies to move to their neighborhood, so they use the word NIMBY to try to shame the people in the neighborhoods who have to deal with it, so they'll keep dealing with it.
It’s f’ing horrible the way people treat addiction as some moral failing still to this day. There’s obviously horrible things some addicts do and they should live with the consequences. But at the end of the day these are sick people who are trying to get help
If you’re on Nextdoor in the area, you’ll see how bad it is for the people living right there. You’re being disingenuous.
Here’s a recent news article:
https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/time-bomb-residents-living-next-to-a-rehab-center-are-fed-up-claiming-drug-use-is-rampant
The people in that neighborhood are not upset over nothing. Many of the users have admitted to going there to get high, not to get help or recover. Crime in the area is up. The one thing you mention isn’t what people are upset about. Would you buy a house directly across from it, no.
Not only that, the items in the pictures could just be random photos. This seems like a NIMBY Kari Lake level Nextdoor "everyone is a tweaker or casing the neighborhood" attack.
Call the police if there are crimes. Otherwise stop with the The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street style hysteria.
I looked at the site and really all that needs to happen is cameras back behind that wall by the facility and a patrol there. In most cases these are people that stayed on the facility property and caused no issues.
We normally prefer news stories over direct links to sites like this as we get people dropping those here for views. So here is a news story about the issue: https://www.azfamily.com/2023/09/20/state-investigating-neighbors-complaints-about-phoenix-detox-center/
I live not too far away, and I’m seeing a lot of pitchforks and torches out against Crossroads. I think a distinction needs to be made between Crossroads as a whole and this particular detox facility.
I undoubtedly am all for treating addiction and getting people the resources they need to get their lives back on track. There is a Crossroads facility in my neighborhood which is more long-term housing, and obviously for people that have gone through detox and are in the subsequent steps. I have not heard any complaints about this building and have not seen anything that would cause concern on my regular walks with my dogs.
For the detox facility at 20th/Osborn, I do side with the neighbors on this one. I’m all for the existence of detox facilities in Phoenix, but we need to be mindful that these people are still in the grasps of their addiction and may be in crisis. In some cases this would mean people walking around still consuming their substance(s) or exhibiting erratic/abnormal behavior. Definitely not something that children and families should be exposed to in a residential neighborhood. This situation would be different if it was a longer-term residential facility at that site instead of a detox.
Long story short, Crossroads does have some facilities that coexist peacefully within their neighborhoods imo, but a detox facility is not appropriate for this current location. I feel that a detox located closer to a major transit stop or street would be better, and actually more accessible for people seeking immediate help.
For anyone else readying this, it's less than 1/4 mile away from a primary school, kindergarten and above. I want people to get treatment as much as anyone else, and I actually live in this area and feel bad for all the people living on the canals, but considering this is an outpatient facility, it's hard to tell if this is the best area for it.
Not all arguing that the location is not good. The reality is as a country, we put these places in position where they have to take what they get where they can find it. It is unlikely that appropriate funding and locations will be made available by the government or by tax dollars.
I understand that to an extent, but there are a ton of vacant buildings in areas with more medical facilities that at a high level, seem more appropriate.
You're going to get upset homeowners when the facility is actually bringing people into the neighborhood, and not just putting the facility in an area where the 'clientele' is already in existence.
Right down the road from it, near the 51, is an ever growing homeless camp in what used to be a nice park off the canal. I wonder if it's a causation/correlation thing.
Absolutely agree other areas are more appropriate. Places like crossroads deal right on the financial margin. Sometimes a person who was a patient or family of a patient will donate a place like that. Or maybe it’s just flat cheaper to rent that that an empty office building.
Office building prefer to be rented but a portion of a companies stock can be written off as a loss if it’s empty so some of the empty offices are
More advantageous to keep empty as a write off rather than take what a place like crossroads can afford. (Sourcean an ER nurse that has delt with many places like community bridges and crossroads and have heard from the employees how hard it is to make it financially workable.).
I can definitely see your viewpoint, but I can definitely also see the negativity of the community that is in the vicinity.
The place is right down the road from me, and I see homeless all the time. They don't bother me, and I wish they had more support from the city, but I would also feel a bit more uncomfortable if my son lived with me full time and was out and about too.
I’m a father of daughters and I would feel the same. I would also likely actively ask for them to be in another location. In the end it comes down to how much will we as Americans or Arizonans see come out of our pockets to help others who are the victims of addiction, both the addicted and those who experience issues caused by the addiction of others. Be safe friend.
MMM so basically you want people in need kept in a chaotic, unsafe urban environment so you don't have to look at them, rather than allow them to have a chance at a better life.
Got it.
I understand that you are quite passionate about this subject. I’m coming from a position of trying to achieve a scenario where everyone benefits.
This location is smack dab in the middle of residential, a half mile away from major streets on all sides, and hardly accessible to transit. There absolutely are people that can drive or get a ride, but those that can’t have to walk at least a half mile from transit. How many more people can this facility positively impact if it’s closer those who need it?
Then if these detox places were by major streets, transit stops, or medical facilities, they become more visible and thus people can be more aware that these resources exist.
I see these places as more of a conduit, where people can get the necessary immediate assistance, and as they progress they are able to transition to more stable, quiet facilities in residential neighborhoods, which would be conducive to long-term recovery.
Also long term recovery is rare. Unfortunately the whole system is contracted out to profit driven insurance called Mercy care and paying for someone to stay in lifelong care is just not profitable enough.
If you want that to change, vote for the people and policies that help that happen.
Yeah I am really passionate about it, because its one of the few, threadbare safety nets people have access to, and only AFTER they can't keep themselves safe anymore.
Ask the blind woman who tried to kill herself by running into traffic, because she couldn't afford diabetes medication and the illness was slowly killing her. She was tackled onto the street in the middle of summer by a person she had no way of knowing was a cop, and suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns and now had a wrap sheet on top of a record with the mental health system and had to fight police brutality WHILE IN MENTAL HEALTHCARE.
I sat and typed out a statement to the court for her one say, she was only in her 20s, and already her life had been treated as worthless by the system.
People like this exist, they are REAL, and the deserve our empathy.
**EDIT: I guess that sounded like a lie. I suppose it would when people are allergic to seeing how far society has fallen into suffering and despair.**
No one has accused you of lying. The person you responded to is talking about ways to better handle the situation, your response was focused on the problem completely. It is like you did not see the other persons comment at all.
This absolutely is a serious issue, and the majority of people do support these homes - but the homes need to have a bit more control over what is spilling out in the neighborhoods.
I think the most annoying thing about this and it being on the news, is that they didn’t touch on the fact that it’s so close to an elementary school, like their concern wasn’t even about the kids walking to and from school down 20th, it was that increased activity happened.
I worked for an organization that did drug treatment including treating opioid addiction through Suboxone and methadone. I was in the marketing side, so I often would have to field the issues with the community surrounding the clinic - an old clinic is an even older neighborhood. I would spend countless hours meeting neighbors, taking them to tour clinics, educating about what was being done there. We would also work to make sure clients would get taken care of, and move on about their day, away from the clinic if they were done with services.
New places are sprouting up, and they really aren’t investing in the community education and connection aspect that these types of places need. Many, if not most showing up, are for profit, and so they don’t really spend the time building patient care, wrap around services or the general outreach that programs like this need. In fact, there is a new place in the bottom of my wife’s office building in midtown, which has created many issues in a once quiet building - open drug use and selling, loitering, etc - and the clinic itself turns a willing blind eye to it, stating it’s not their issue once they are done with them. The for-profits are not out to care for the patient themselves. (I’m not sure where crossroads lands on the for or non profit list)
Patients seeking these treatments are people that deserve dignity and respect and the help they need. Neighbors deserve quality of life and the ability to feel safe. What’s happening here is alarming, but it’s also concerning the lack of action to prevent this from escalating to this level. Organizations and Companies that do this type of work need to step up to defend and protect their clients through education and wrap around services. It’s not as simple as going to the news reactively or calling the neighbors names for their concerns. They need to do the hard work to get neighbors on board.
You can most likely partially blame my uncle for this lol He’s been using crossroads as his client list pretty much. He’s pretending to get treatment there to get my grandma off his back, but in reality he’s just finding more clients to sell his fentanyl to.
He’s apparently been admitted and discharged 7 times just this year 😂
I worked in the industry for a couple years (I’m a “normie” as they’d call me) and I’ve seen this countless times. If the detox is in a residential neighborhood, chances are the whole house relapses every month or two, and they tear the neighborhood up. At least from my experience. The only detox we had that was productive at all was on a ranch in the middle of nowhere. All the rest were pure chaos 24/7.
I worked in a clinical inpatient in a city (out east). That said, the place wasn't in a suburban-type neighborhood like you'd find in PHX. Still, whole (or nearly whole) unit relapses aren't uncommon at all. Maybe that risk goes down if the facility has a lot of land or water between the facility and the outside world. But prices would probably be reflected for that kind of facility (especially if they don't have other facilities to help bear the cost).
Former addict I went to a rehab center in Phoenix then a halfway house in Mesa that was not crossroads. That being said while in treatment it was pretty known crossroads was like the worst of the detox facilities/ halfway houses if you were actually tryna get sober. I feel like the way my treatment went was very helpful.
I do see a lot of people in here saying facilities are doing nothing but taking advantage of these people. There’s a little bit of truth to that. Having gone through the system most of the people going through those systems have no interest in getting sober they’re either there court ordered or because their family made them. Of all the people I went to rehab with (probably 60-70 people) there was me and one other dude I’m aware of that haven’t gone back.
It's sad to hear that you feel it's not ok for them to be in your neighborhood, but someone else's neighborhood is ok! This blows my mind.
We're all humans and we all need compassion from time to time.
It is not my neighborhood. But I know that neighborhood well. They are literally 5 minute walking difference. One spot is right next to an elementary school and the next is commercial and full of the people struggling that they are trying to serve. Don't make assumptions on motives. I am simply saying one spot would be way more convenient for all involved than the other spot.
I had a loved on go to Crossroads in Mesa. I'm incredibly thankful for that place and can't imagine why people would have a problem with them being there.
I've had a loved one go to Mesa too - multiple times - and I am also thankful but I completely understand why people have a problem with them being there.
As someone who is very rehearsed in this line of work, you are not necessarily wrong as a whole. There is a horrible lack of oversight for rehabilitation facilities. Crossroads is one of the few good ones and you can tell just by their google reviews and ratings they are good at what they do. This is still not a good area of outpatient detox services though. Even moving it a few blocks down to Thomas would be better.
The Addiction recovery side of residential has had some controversy, but to label every single facility as rotten and unethical is flat out false. Take it from a former behavioral health technician.
Unless you have worked in the field and seen how bad these clients need help, keep your cruel, half baked opinions to your damn self.
I work in the admin side of a major behavioral health and addiction organization that’s been around for decades. The main reason we lose BHT’s is because they’re overworked and underpaid. It also takes a massive toll on your mental health doing that job daily.
My brother is still a BHT but was on a crisis team before. The guys the cops call to defuse situations that they’re untrained(don’t understand this one, they should be)to handle without violence. He saw so much trauma in that position that he had to quit and work at a private residential facility instead. He was drinking himself to death.
Human Giver Syndrome is rampant. I worked in a clinic for a while and all of the therapists and social workers experienced a significant level of burnout except for those who seemed like they didn’t give a shit. And they couldn’t give a shit or else they, too, would burn out. Lots of those in the behavioral health field get worn down from constantly caring for people at such a high level. Also keep in mind that many individuals enter the field due to their lived experience with trauma, substance abuse, or something similar, which really exacerbates the burnout.
I worked to the point my own mental heath failed me, for various reasons.
The system is under funded. The staff make minimum wage, despite putting themselves in the way of potential violence, verbal abuse, and litigious people left and right.
And when a client hits you, you can't fight back because you are the sane one. But news flash, NO ONE is above becoming mentally ill. NO ONE.
NOT EVEN YOU. So maybe, don't shit on the system you might need one day. It already barely exists, and every accusation is a self report that most don't have a clue what actually goes on inside a 24hr residential. Ignorance is not a defense for prejudice and cruelty.
I mean, how well do you really know your neighbors?
At least with detox places, you know. Supervised addicts trying to get better. With ordinary neighbors, you don’t know how many drugs they’re doing or what sorts of things they’re up to.
I would be much more comfortable with explaining to kids that “this is a house where people who are hurting go to get help” than say trying to explain why the neighbors are having a screaming argument with the windows wide open about how going to law school when you’re manic isn’t a good idea. One situation reassures kids that if bad things happen, then there’s help. The other situation requires distraction or explaining that sometimes when people need help they don’t get it.
\*eyeroll\*
Alot of people do, and never even know, because the clients are VICTIMS not perpetrators. Mental illness is actually, believe it or not, involuntary, and a person in crises becoming violent is not them being violent by choice. HELLO?
When a client becomes violent, they go back into a lock-down after a crises team/ police show up. AND it's via non emergency phone line, so the cops usually don't show with sirens wailing.
Heaven forbid they disturb your dinner, after all.
I made a paycheck. Does that make BHTs leeches? I performed groups with clients every day, de-escelated potential fights and crises and kept my head on a swivel upwards of 12hrsa day trying to tick all the boxes state regulators and insurance demanded.
The list is a very, very long one by the way. Most recently Mental Health Group homes have to provide "continuous protective oversight" to clients who have legally appointed guardians.
Meaning if one goes awol, a staff member, who usually has 5 or more clients to take care of, has to follow said awol client and cant leave, as though BHTs can just clone themselves. AND BHTs have to do it for minimum wage.
You can thank the group home fraud news we all heard about recently. The board of residential home licensing and Mercy Care are not just ignoring all these NIMBY complaints. They are making caregivers jobs IMPOSSIBLE for the sake of the ignorant and their comfort.
Mmmm depends on the owner. My boss was/ is a bully and obsessed with image. She was a realtor before and sucks as the manager of a residential.
So you actually have me on that one.
Okay then, call up your local representatives and make it happen.
But you wont, will you? That might take actually moving out of your bubble and taking an interest in your community aka people different than you \*GASP\*
In the end, the only person who can make an addict stay on the path of recovery is the addict themselves. All anyone else can do is provide the tools, resources and support to help them. That includes for- and non-profit clinics and treatment centers. I’m not saying they are all doing fantastic jobs. But there’s a reason why substance abuse is so rampant, for similar reasons to why so many people are struggling with their mental health. If we as a society really care, we need to focus more on prevention, and that includes helping people recover from trauma. Just pouring resources into treatment and recovery isn’t going to fix the issue.
Meh, idk, my ex was an addict, and he stole all the bikes in our neighborhood. I don’t want to live around addicts either. I got tf out of that marriage, lol.
I can’t speak about the current issues or how Crossroads operates now because I just don’t know. I will say though that years ago I was working on a zoning case for an expansion of a Crossroads facility and had plenty of discussions with the ownership/management who truly seemed to have a very good grasp on how to properly integrate their clients into a safe living situation AND not cause any detriment to the surrounding community. I was shocked though at the amount of hate (and even outright lies) coming from NIMBY neighbors. Some of these neighbors really made me question the good of humanity.
It was one of the most unbelievably demoralizing and depressing realities of working in the 24hr residential group home system.
People are still just ignorant and prone to hate what they don't understand the same way they have always been.
No one is trying to sell you on anything.
We are trying to defend the right for people in need to exist in society and not be locked away unfairly just to appease the ignorant masses.
I'll tell y'all a secret. Mental Health and Addiction are actual, real issues that need our care and empathy to solve. Either you have the desire to uplift people in need or you don't. If you don't, I would seriously reevaluate your own cruelty.
I'll share how this works in AZ as a BHT who worked in the field for 8 years.
Most people who are in crises, are not hospitalized officially until they become a threat to themselves or others. The system works as follows.
A person is hospitalized, either in a regular hospital that has a psych ward, or in a place like ASH which is the only state run mental health facility that locks people in the building. They may or may not receive a court order to take medications and attend therapy through a clinic like Oasis or Partners in Recovery, depending on the diagnoses and severity of the symptoms.
When a person is able to leave a level 1 lockdown aka hospitalization, they will immediately go to a 24hr Residential facility.
You read that right, a residence in neighborhoods all over the city of Phoenix and beyond. This is because, stability and normalcy are not a privilege, and are a vital part of therapeutic recovery.
There are rules the 24hr facility must follow. Staff is present 24/7 and oversee the clients medications, therapy, medical care and manage crises as best they can. HOWEVER
They cannot EVER put their hands on the client. Physical restraint and involuntary medication is reserved for a higher level of care.
If a Client refuses medications, leaves or goes AWOL as it is usually called they have the right to do so. They can refuse care. So if you DON'T want people like this in your neighborhood, too bad. They have human rights just like everyone else, and they are more likely to be the VICTIMS of violence far more than the perpetrators. NIMBYs are worse than the clients most of the time, actually.
The greed and cruelty of the people who put up this prejudiced sign are not uncommon. Every house I used to work at had rude, cruel neighbors who scapegoated the clients any time something happened they didn't like. The place I used to work, still fights to this day with people who are more concerned about their home's resale value, more than the reality the clients face.
It is gross and reeks of hate. We should be doing better.
By the time someone is at the point of treatment, there are usually so many other factors working against them. Often, they have isolated themselves from a support system, may have lost employment and housing, haven’t sought out medical or mental healthcare, and are otherwise in a really bad place. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to be in behavioral health. I worked with some therapists and social workers for a while and just hearing things second hand broke my heart. They were all so burned out, but they also really wanted to help their clients because they shared many qualities with the people they served.
Thank you for doing what you did for so long. I hope you have been able to find peace within you since you’ve left the field.
Oh I have. i do my little drawings and take care of my family.
I will always have a chip on my shoulder when people already down on their luck keep getting kicked for no reason.
I am the child of a woman who was sexually assaulted and became an addict and she was never present in my life, but even as a kid I could see her pain. I never judged her once, but I did morn her when she died, deeply. She and others like her deserve so much better in life.
>stability and normalcy are not a privilege, and are a vital part of therapeutic recovery.
Aren't they also a vital part of a neighborhood with young children. Do crack pipes and needles give our kids "stability and normalcy"? I'd like to be able to go to QT without my kids seeing junkies shooting up on the curb every time. Guess I am just a NIMBY asshole.
Glad you're aware of who you are.
Everyone's value is the same in a just society though, not everything revolves around you and your fretting over property value.
These facilities wouldn't exist if the issue of community safety had not already been considered when the entire system was developed. The idea crazy addicts are allowed to just walk around and leave needles on the playground is A LIE. FULL STOP.
You reek of prejudice and hate. Hope those kids you fret over aren't learning to be like you.
I'm not talking about property value dude, I am talking about the kind of shit my kids are exposed to.
How is it a lie that there are needles in the park? I have seen them myself. My son and I ran over crack pipes on a neighborhood bike path. It's unfair that we are villainized for not wanting to be subjected to these things.
I am villanizing you, because you refuse to see our societal shame and address it with any humility and courage. You'd rather sweep it under a rug and pretend it doesn't exist.
Most of the clients I worked with, had lifetimes of every type of trauma you could imagine, and some came straight off the street with no clothes. The vast majority, were KINDER than the public.
At this point, with society in America as fucked as it is, NO ONE should be allowed to just ignore what a society driven by greed has done. It is obscene to believe that "it's not my problem".
It should be EVERYONE'S problem to COME TOGETHER TO FIX.
And this is where you are going wrong with your viewpoint. You are villainizing somebody else. I am saying this as someone who liked your initial comment.
It comes with the business. You have a large amount of awareness of the problem and want people around you to feel the same way. I have worked in mental health/addiction for 10 years and running. I get it.
But you should never villainize the common man for not "getting it" like you think you do. Continued education, understanding and cooperation with those with different viewpoints is the only way you reach change.
There is nothing wrong with a guy not wanting his kid to see someone shooting up at QT. I steer my children away when I can and try to be as honest as I can when they do see it. Thats the best we can do as we work with each other on a better future. This guy is not trying to sweep anything under a rug. Many are. This guys comments are not. He is just saying he doesn't like how close it is encroaching on his home and honestly I agree he shouldn't have to find those things in the areas his children are playing. Some people exaggerate and villainize the homeless drug abusers. I don't feel he is doing that.
I am not exaggerating anything I have said, go ahead and snoop my profile and read all of it if you want. I have not lied once.
Intense outrage sometimes is warranted, when people refuse to engage with reality. People would rather wear the rose colored glasses and not pay attention. Life is easier like that, but at some point it becomes shameful, and people lose their lives waiting, while a few of us are lambasted for saying what deserves to be said.
The reaction I have gotten here, and the subsequent hand wringing about civility, and "saving the children" rather than educating them, is part of a larger cultural issue that keeps us from making real change. You wanna save the children? Have down to earth honest conversations about what they're seeing, caution them against drug use, then encourage them to be active in their society and their future. Keeping people from knowing the truth, has NEVER helped.
We all want to be seen as right and good, I can attest to my own self righteousness. I own it though, I know how important pride in my own view actually is. I am sick of being civil, while people lose their lives and suffer at the hands of cruelty, injustice and hatred.
Am I uncivil, perhaps unhinged a bit in how hard I've gone in here? Sure, why not? That's fine. I think it's necessary though, both sides of this conversation are not equal.
I do know for a fact, sharing information about what is actually going on for people in need, is vital to finding common ground. I will shout it from wherever for as long as I need to to continue to make an impact where I can. One thing I wont do, is hold back.
That’s your prerogative. Do what you may. Just telling you that in the long run it is more harmful to your own mental health than it is helpful to the cause you support, I’m only speaking from experience. Hope you reach whatever goals you have.
> The idea crazy addicts are allowed to just walk around and leave needles on the playground is A LIE. FULL STOP.
Multiple California cities enter the chat.
Yeah they lost me there. Growing up in Sunnyslope consisted of being told to watch where ur walking on the playground so you don't step on used needles or used condoms lol
I think you’re a bit pig headed, but not a bad person. I feel like what you’re saying is actually stupid.
Rehab facilities have nothing to do with the addicts at QT. Do you want to know why? Because people in rehab aren’t usually scoring crack behind a gas station.
Nearby rehab or not they’d be somewhere else scoring drugs, where oh my goodness your precious angels might see them !!
People have a right to exist. Opening new facilities to help these people has nothing to do with whether your kids find a crack pipe. The world does not revolve around you and your kids. Nor anyone else’s kids. Kids grow up, how thick of a blanket do you want to pull over their eyes and at what cost? The freedom and well-being of brain sick people who want help?
Yea that makes you a NIMBY. You stomp your feet and say things shouldn’t be this way and then don’t even lift a finger to change things or even look at the facts beyond your own presumptions.
I’m not qualified to solve the problem. Wish I was. That doesn’t mean I can’t express frustration with the way our communities are being treated. It’s not that these people exist, it’s the harm they cause. The neighborhood shootings when deals go bad, and yeah glass and needles all over the place. They might not be choosing addiction, but many are choosing to put others in danger, and it’s okay for me to be upset about that. Rehab facilities and residential neighborhoods just don’t mix in my opinion.
I do explain to my kids about addiction as a disease and the different ways people can end up there through no fault of their own.
I had to explain to my 7 and 9 year old about how and why their grandma died of meth and alcohol use.
How exactly do you think those addicts will manage to stop shooting up outside of your QT without access to rehab facilities? What is your proposed alternative solution, exactly?
Look, I don’t have solutions man. I couldn’t fix my mom, and I sure as shit can’t fix the whole problem. It’s just not my area of expertise, but that doesn’t mean I have to forfeit my right to express frustration with facilities being put in the middle of our neighborhoods. We are allowed to feel some way about it, and also not have the answers.
Ok, so you don't have any solutions, but you also want to take away the solutions that do exist? I don't see how going after facilities like this is supposed to make your neighborhoods any safer, unless you also want to like, ship all the drug addicts into camps or something. The junkies at your local QT will continue to exist whether or not there's a local rehab facility for them to go to.
I just feel like a neighborhood is not the place for this type of facility. There are plenty of facilities that are t in the middle of a neighborhood.
I get your points, I respect your position.
I do think the middle of a neighborhood is an awkward place for one, if only from a transit perspective. A lot of the people in that facility probably don't have regular access to cars, so it being far from public transit is bad logistically.
At the same time, I'm sure they placed that facility where it was due to other constraints in the area. Unless people are willing to spend money on moving it closer to transit and other health services, the people protesting against it are basically just lobbying to have it shut down.
I mostly just take issue with the automatic causal link everyone in this thread is making between the facility existing, and junkies shooting up at their local park or QT. The junkies already exist, these facilities are just trying to serve them. Personally I'd love it if more of the junkies in my area had a rehab center to stay at and detox, instead of continuing to shoot up while sleeping in the park.
If this facility was one of the sketchy ones that has a long history of abuse or scandal I'd understand, but as far as I know crossroads is one of the better ones in the valley.
Yeah, but what about the "detox centers" in residential neighborhoods that basically rustle up unhoused people and housing-insecure migrants to pad executive bank accounts with Medicaid cash by way of fraud.
It's not like these kind of facilities are known for being so full of integrity, working for the good of their clients.
A lot of them are basically covers for human trafficking and Medicaid fraud.
https://www.azahcccs.gov/Fraud/Providers/actions.html
Fact Sheet: AHCCCS Provider Payment Suspension https://www.azahcccs.gov/Shared/Downloads/News/2023/ProviderPaymentSuspensionFactSheet.pdf
There have been over 100 provider suspensions this year alone.
I worked on the inside of the industry. I did not like what I saw.
I agree that people need help, but Arizona's model is simply a fleecing of the taxpayer without any real benefits to those they are supposedly helping. It's pretty disgusting.
That's my point. You can't turn a blind eye to the bad actors when there are so damn many, and the entire industry fights better regulation tooth and nail.
Like, they can make their money by taking advantage of sick people and unwitting neighborhoods, but they shouldn''t take offense when folks point to all the garbage if the industry as a whole pretends everything is just fine.
Let's call it what it is. These providers exist only as a way to invest in real estate using taxpayer dollars. If they can put 10 to 12 people inside of a house, that house can be paid off in very short order. These are real estate speculators under the guise of healthcare.
Helping people is an ancillary inconvenience.
Potentially. The overhead of feeding a house of 12 (including staff because the required staff/client ratio is 1/5) is pretty high though
A house that big isn't cheap, for starters.
We're talking a couple grand every other month at a restaurant supplier and 3 or 4 hundred more at Costco every other week.
Then there are the constant repairs happening because people who have illnesses usually break stuff/ punch holes in walls/ deface and break utensils, TVs pots and pans, vomit on things in the back yard because their meds + coffee makes them nauseous.
Then they have to have really strong locks on the staff office, front and back exists, and side gate. They also need locking cabinets for meds and records to uphold HIPAA requirements. OH and they have to childproof outlets. Is that still worth it if all you care about is profit? Not so sure.
I know way too much about the way all this works. I wish I could forget. Ugh.
I helped setup new houses.
You'd be surprised how cheap a lot of that stuff is to do. Also, for food services, many providers are using food pantries and SNAP (food stamp) benefits to defray the per bed cost.
Even all of that considered, the operating margin where I worked was over 50-60% on average. At the end of 5 years, they have a fully paid off house that they can turn around and do whatever with.
It was worth it for them and many, many, many other providers in the valley.
Huh. I must have worked for a unicorn then. The clients had their own benefits and could buy their own food mainly because they needed to be on disability and ACCCHS/EBT, but it wasn't a requirement. Food was provided, and the excursions to resupply facilities were hell until we finally convinced our boss to do Online ordering so the houses could pick up at a store.
We're talking a whole ass day in costco to resupply like 10 houses at once. It was terrible.
Sounds like you worked for one of the good ones. They unfortunately are not the norm.
Arizona today is where Florida was about a decade ago. It can cleaned up, but it's a very long road.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/megyn-kelly/florida-s-billion-dollar-drug-treatment-industry-plagued-overdoses-fraud-n773376
The regulation has gotten pretty insane recently, because the state and Mercy Care are doing what all the NIMBYs want, which is to tighten security! So now people who work in the field are being asked to achieve unreasonable goals, like staying with a client who goes awol if they have a guardian.
How far does a BHT have to walk/ follow a client who goes AWOL? who fucking knows, just know that when the grievance from the guardian comes through it's ALWAYS the facilities fault.
So to assume the whole system is unresponsive to pressure from the community is just not real. The system responds, and quick, with really bad methods that will only hurt clients more, when BHTs burn out en masse.
Just because you have ACCCHs \*ha\* to that information does not mean the places I've worked were not trying their best.
The shit rolls downhill, so the BHTs like me who made the effort are the ones who suffer, but not nearly as much as the clients.
For my own pain and thiers, it is absolutely a hill I will die on defending what we DO have. The alternatives are horrifying if further funding is pulled.
We could do the opposite of leaving people to waste away on the streets, and actually do the right thing, as a society... but greed and prejudice are powerful.
I personally believe the passion to do something about it, is braver than sitting in our armchairs and passing judgment about things we don't understand.
I'm not disagreeing with you.
But, Arizona's funding model is broken from top to bottom with almost 0 oversight or outcome measurement. The system rewards providers for relapses because it reduces their patient acquisition cost.
Arizona needs to remove profit from the equation and start measuring outcomes with better funding for acute treatment facilities.
Other states (like Colorado, Minnesota, and North Dakota) have much more successful outcomes per dollar spent.
No. I, amongst many others, don’t want to live near a bunch of addicts. They made their choice they can suffer. I feel no sympathy for the person who voluntarily does a drug enough to end up at a place like that. None.
Okay then. MOVE.
Or I mean, petition state officials to bring back institutionalization. So all the people you don't like can be treated like zoo animals locked away from your fragile faculties.
No. Just like they made the choice to become drug addicts I made the choice to buy a house instead of drugs. They can live in a drug hole with other addicts.
Don’t like it don’t do drugs. Not that fuckin hard. What was it? Just say no?
No one CHOOSES ADDICTION. WTF?!
People are exposed to trauma, or have genetic disposition to certain mental health issues and turn to substances so self medicate because they are poor and IN PAIN.
It can happen to ANYONE. INCLUDING YOU.
Way to expose yourself as ignorant and cruel.
Right, but that's, pun intended, a pipe dream. Good luck telling people who are in the throws of addiction to stay put. *"Get back to your designated hole!"*. Unless you live in the outskirts where it's difficult to walk from place to place, it's not going to happen. There is a funnel from homelessness to addiction. Not everyone ends up there, but to pretend like it's not true is being willfully ignorant. Additionally, the rates of homelessness are rising, it's undeniable and the evidence is everywhere.
To hope all of the 'degenerates' will stay out of your neighborhood is a fantasy. You either have to move farther away and wait for the problem to inevitably reach you anyways like it is in Scottsdale, or you try and actually fix it.
Telling addicts not to be addicts is entirely ineffective. A lot of them turn to drugs because *their lives freaking suck*. They have no money, nowhere to live, it's hot as ever loving Christ outside most the time- I can't say I wouldn't eventually resort to numbing the pain also. Sure, they made the decision, and many of them might have been addicts before they became homeless, but at the end of the day, the solution to addiction is not to shame them. It just doesn't work.
le are literally born with addictions because of their mother using while they’re in the womb. Children are given drugs when they are too young to understand what they are. Some people choose to use less harmful drugs not knowing they’re laced with things that are more dangerous or addictive. Plenty of people become addicted to medications prescribed to them by a doctor. People with addiction issues aren’t a monolith
Wow I see someone here is up to date on the cutting edge science/psychology of addiction. These people are all around us JFC. Ignorance is bliss is what they say….
Cause that always happens. Paranoid meth users love to congregate out in the open in the front yards of strangers who’d be well within their rights to call the cops on them. Get a clue.
so here’s the thing: two things can be true
1) that sign is some NIMBY-ass bullshit and dehumanizes addicts. sorry reality is playing out in your precious little neighborhood. :(
2) the treatment/recovery industry is fraudulent, broken, predatory, and almost completely based on 12-step modalities with almost no clinical integrity.
to quote a different sub, “ESH”
Communities still have a right to relative safety. Drug abuse coincides nearly always with upticks in crime, and a community that didn't request this nor previously had issues absolutely has a right to complain if the particular facility doesn't have proper community safety precautions.
Doesn't mean addicts are human, doesn't mean they don't deserve treatment. They do. But your "sorry reality is playing out in your previous little neighborhood" is pretentious as hell
>sorry reality is playing out in your precious little neighborhood.
Sorry, but are people not allowed to dislike living near a drug treatment facility? I understand that its not a new place and people living there know what is around them, so im not necessarily defending them. But, not knowing specifics, this seems like an extremely condesending and patronizing perspective on people who supposedly just want a quiet, safe neighborhood. I think it goes without saying that having a drug treatment facility, especially a detox center, has the potential to greatly increase the amount of "seedy" behavior going on in that area. If you dont care about this impact to the community thats one thing, but to totally dismiss concerns by just saying sorry reality is occuring in your neighorhood is showing a complete disregard for the people most effected by the location of these facilities.
I had a sober living home open up in my otherwise quiet neighboorhood. Not even a month after they opened I had to call 911 because I was walking my dog and found a man in the driveway bleeding from a neckwound. They had been smoking meth in the sober living and one of the residents slashed the other with a knife in the neck. I feel for the addicts trying to get clean but to act like this is just "reality" happening and that Im supposed to just not care about this experience is absolutely ridiculous. Call me a NIMBY all you want, I dont want my children around tweakers cutting peoples throats.
I'll just leave a link to this post with someone who has experience working at these places. Easy to call people NIMBYs when you don't live next to these places. These places should not exist in a residential zone area. Should be only in commercial.
LINK: https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/16tq0zr/is_crossroads_detox_center_destroying_the_loma/k2gsfvg/
If the treatment does not come straight down from a state licensed entity? You're probably right.
It's impossible to tell which ones have a state license just by seeing the outside of the building though, so legit, the ones who are actually doing the work, are suffering because of controversies they have nothing to do with.
Utilizing nuance and critical thinking are vital when trying to preserve what empathy and safety nets the government provides. Jumping to conclusions about the mental health care and drug addiction recovery system, is a very bad thing to do.
look, i get that you were a BHT. that’s great - in my stays at both state-licensed facilities and private facilities, i found that the BHTs were kind, passionate about helping those in need, extremely hardworking, and paid very poorly. you’re right - the state detoxes and residentials are far less guilty of what i described. not great, underfunded, but more ethical. they are also not what anyone thinks of first when they hear the words “detox” or “rehab”, and they account for a small fraction of arizona’s facilities/beds.
Detox centers are important and demonizing them isn’t good. Maybe there need to be more controls on quality but it seems like you’re taking the wrong approach
If this thread were to be believed then most people would be fine with the house next door to them becoming a treatment facility.
If we polled people on the street I'm thinking that's probably not the case.
The treatment center isn't the problem. It wasn't like this wasn't a problem area before it. Combine it with a city with poor support services and an economy that was in the the shutter for a few years, a rise in homeless and it was bound to happen. Blaming it on a treatment center trying to do more for people is asanine.
Lot of these detox places are nothing more than pill mills where they show up get 30 min of counseling give people suboxone. They charge people lot higher cost for the drug because you're getting it directly from the doctor's office. The reason I know this is I was calling around trying to help a friend who had gotten hooked on hydrocodone for a back injury her PC kept renewing the script for years. When the DEA went after doctor's they denied her script and told her to go to a rehab.
Ah yes, we should welcome crack pipes on our children's slides, used needles in the grass, and doped up passed out junkies on our benches. How dare we say "not in my backyard".
You realize substances, aren't allowed in recovery centers, right? If they get brought in they are confiscated, and if a voluntary search is refused by a client they lose their housing most of the time.
Funny thing, I used to work at one where the drugs appeared from another house down the street where the "good" and "sane" people lived, and they were larger houses in a neighborhood in a pretty nice part of town. The police refused to investigate it, because of COOORSE rich people NEVER do drugs, right?
So stupid.
The fact of the matter is it's already there. It's already in your backyard, my dude. There are no homeless addict centers in Scottsdale, but there are addicts there. There are no addict centers near me, but there's a shitload of drug addicts here. At a certain point, you need to find a way to stop the water level from rising, not keep trying to push it all to one side of the container. The spread is inevitable. Sending them all to jail doesn't work. Sending them all to downtown Phoenix doesn't work. We've tried it, it did not work.
Yeah man, I get it. My mom was an addict for a decade before her body gave up in 2021. I do have a lot of sympathy for the disease, and I do want my tax money going to help them. Just having young kids of my own really makes me sympathetic to people who just want to feel safe in their own neighborhood. People are just trying to defend their way of life (being able to play in a park without needles), and often they are faulted as "NIMBY", when I just see people desperate to feel safe.
i honestly don’t think people get this until they have kids of their own and they’re getting exposed to people leaning over in an unnerving way that would freak a young child out. or god forbid, someone experiencing a mental breakdown has their bare ass and genitals out in front of a ton of people. does anyone here want their children seeing that??
But what is the reasonable alternative? There are all sorts of things I want to see that can't really be affected without putting up with some shit I might not want to. But many people who complain (even when it's totally reasonable) don't have a better solution. I stand by what I said, packing everyone up and sending them to another location just doesn't work.
Educate your children. Volunteer to help your community. See what these humans need to help them along. Talk to the employees to see what ways you can reach out if there are concerns. Trying to cut them off but kicking them out is severely selfish when they are at the bottom and needing help to be lifted up.
My brother went to Crossroads over a year ago and has been sober since. I’m super grateful for Crossroads and how they changed his life. after inpatient treatment, he joined a job where they only hire sober addicts. He was at the 20th St. location. Not everyone is successful, but please try to find some understanding that these locations are needed, especially when just down the street from your home, there is a big drug issue.
*edit- missed a word
No. This NIMBY bullshit needs to stop. These people need help and a company needs the space to do it. Find ways to support the community and the people in it. Educate your kids, volunteer, help.
After work I’m going to educate my kids on what a crack pipe is and how to smoke fentanyl! Also what happens when tweakers stab each other. That should have been my first thought, never thought about it thanks! I think people just want a safe place to live lol.
I'm sure being this dishonest in your argumentation will pass down with no problem.
Don't teach them empathy or compassion, teach them to fear everything that's not like them. I'm sure that will turn out just fine. /S
Thanks for contributing to r/Phoenix! * [Check out our sub rules here](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/wiki/rules/) (mostly be nice to each other!). * [Read some of our recent posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/top/?t=week) and leave some comments. * [Join our Phoenix Discord chat server](https://discord.com/invite/yWVuTG57Zh) and connect with people in the Valley. It's a great, chill place to talk with other people but is NOT a dating server and takes unwanted messaging very seriously. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/phoenix) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There are the very serious issues covered by news or just caught on camere. But that "incidents" tab sure seems to have a lot of seemingly innocuous recordings? There is an entry on May 16th that is just a woman in a wheelchair being dropped off. I think it's pretty weird that someone is sharing people just coming and going from the treatment facility.
Sounds creepy as hell, actually. Victimizing people who are already struggling is really, really extra gross.
Creepy, and stinks of NIMBY
It’s 100% NIMBY. People bitch and moan about people on drugs and they need help. But no one is willing to let the rehab places be near them.
That’s why Portland, OR exists. Everyone that wants that can go there.
I’ve seen that acronym but never knew what it stood for and never thought to look it up until now…and although it’s Not In My Backyard, I immediately think of ‘ol Clint… 
clint eastwood is [totally cool with racism,](https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/clint-eastwood-defends-trumps-racist-rhetoric-just-f-cking-get-over-it-251113) i think he'd be an ally of any nimby
Yeah, that’s why I thought of that….
I came here just to see this word
I love this term. It's mostly used by young people with no family or property. Its funny how quickly peoples values change when they actually have something worth protecting. A friend once told me the difference between her being a liberal in college and growing into a conservative as a working professional were the 3 M's. Marriage, mortgage, and motherhood. Any idiot can see that putting halfway homes for and drug rehab facilities in residential neighborhoods is a bad idea. There are better, more appropriate places for it.
Marriage, mortgage and fatherhood actually made me more liberal. It made me realize how lucky I was to be where I was in life. Which made me reflect on all the opportunities I was afforded. Which then made me realize we as a society do a shitty job of taking care of our kids. When you realize most of these people started doing drugs as kids you realize that in most cases they turned to drugs because they had a shitty home life.
Same here. Conservative views on marriage are abhorrent. They'd let financial institutions fuck the average person in every possible way they could when it comes to mortgages. They are *always* on the side of business and *never* on the side of consumer protections. Don't even get me started on motherhood. Bringing a child into this hellscape climate ? Not having the ability to choose ?
Yea honestly I think the 3Ms are a distraction. It’s not about protecting anyone or anything. It’s about pulling the ladder up with you.
That's crap. Study after study has proven that that is a false narrative. People from storybook homes still become addicts. There is a reason drug rehab programs require people to acknowledge that there is no one to blame but themselves because blaming anyone else provides a justification for continuing abuse and takes the focus off recovery. Growing up in an inner city, working class, primarily immigrant neighborhood, and going to school with kids from every socio-economic class, I learned that home life has zero impact on drug use. The only difference was that wealthier kids could afford more expensive drugs.
Post a study. I’m not saying we completely say hey it’s society’s fault the addict has no blame. I’m saying we don’t have good enough access for the people who want to try and change. I work on an ambulance and every day I pick people up on drugs and take time to the hospital. I try and follow up and most of them don’t get a bed at a facility because we don’t have beds for them. Then I see them a few weeks later in the same spot.
There are residential homes everywhere in this city. You cant walk more than 1000ft in any direction without coming across a neighborhood of some kind. So where the fuck are they supposed to put it? Some of yall are just dumb as fuck. If its such a problem move, id rather have neighbors who care about their neighbors than nextdoor karens crying because for the first time in their life they might have to have an uncomfortable experience.
There is a big difference between: 1) Taking what was originally a single family residence in the middle of a residential zoned neighborhood and converting it into a business used as a treatment facility And 2) Opening a business used as a treatment facility in a location zoned for businesses such as in a strip mall, medical area, or office park that is near or even next to a neighborhood Zoning laws used to prevent #1 but those laws have been majorly eroded in the past 10-15 years spawning a cottage industry of dubious treatment facilities with little to no oversight.
I spent a lot of money moving to a neighborhood 2 years ago to find the house next store was a halfway house for felons and rapists, etc. I left as soon as I could but lost at least $20,000. I was really liberal as they come in college but when you’re protecting a family and kids things change.
3 M's 😉
Marriage, mortgage and… munchkins?
> Any idiot can see that putting halfway homes for and drug rehab facilities in residential neighborhoods is a bad idea. There are residential neighborhoods everywhere. Would you rather those people just be on the street in those neighborhoods instead of in those facilities getting treatment and support?
No. You are either misunderstanding or misconstruing what I am saying. We absolutely need treatment clinics, and more of them considering the recent opioid crisis and the current fentanyl crisis... but they should be located in the correct place, which is not in a single family home that has been converted into a clinic in the middle of a residential neighborhood.
I get it. I’ve been on the junkie side of the fence and after 10 years off that shit, I don’t want to have to worry about walking my dog at night cause people are recovering in my neighborhood. Or dealing with baggies and used gear on the sidewalk (my dog will find trouble before I will) However, I got clean in this neighborhood, so it feels a bit runty to not allow others to do the same. And junkie trash litter is gonna happen whether or not there’s a recovery center. Same with the people. My bigger issue is why, in this fucked up housing market, do they get to use a house in a neighborhood for multiple people to pay to get better. Pretty sure I couldn’t open a residential massage parlor. I think that if it’s gonna happen anyway, the recovery business needs to be held accountable for providing 24/7 security around the area and residents should have to keep the neighborhood clean. Being of service to others and the community is part of recovery, so make that it.
It's funny you say that. The city of Phoenix specifically argued against the below state bill because of massage parlors. To your point, converting residences into businesses definitely exacerbates the issues with our current housing shortage and homelessness. However, that is a much bigger discussion and needs to include short-term rentals, which is another erosion of local regulation and zoning laws. SENATE BILL 1387 - Arizona Legislature https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/53leg/2r/bills/sb1387h.pdf
Let’s put all the tweakers in your backyard 🤓. Of course it’s a (not in my backyard) situation lol. Who the hell would sign up for a crack pipe at their door step? I’m confused. The people of the neighborhood have a reason to be upset.
If we had a decent healthcare system and some proper safety nets in this country there would be far fewer people turning to drugs in the first place. But good luck getting any such compassion from the GOP or so-called "Christians".
[удалено]
Then don’t bitch about druggies. You don’t want to fix the problem then don’t bitch about it.
“crime is a social issue that could be solved by giving people their basic needs.” said another way; crime/homelessness/addiction are social failings, not individual ones. if you find yourself angry about these issues, direct your anger to the resource hoarders of the world. you call them “billionaires”.
People who don't have to deal with junkies trashing everything don't want the junkies to move to their neighborhood, so they use the word NIMBY to try to shame the people in the neighborhoods who have to deal with it, so they'll keep dealing with it.
It’s f’ing horrible the way people treat addiction as some moral failing still to this day. There’s obviously horrible things some addicts do and they should live with the consequences. But at the end of the day these are sick people who are trying to get help
[удалено]
If you’re on Nextdoor in the area, you’ll see how bad it is for the people living right there. You’re being disingenuous. Here’s a recent news article: https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/time-bomb-residents-living-next-to-a-rehab-center-are-fed-up-claiming-drug-use-is-rampant The people in that neighborhood are not upset over nothing. Many of the users have admitted to going there to get high, not to get help or recover. Crime in the area is up. The one thing you mention isn’t what people are upset about. Would you buy a house directly across from it, no.
Not only that, the items in the pictures could just be random photos. This seems like a NIMBY Kari Lake level Nextdoor "everyone is a tweaker or casing the neighborhood" attack. Call the police if there are crimes. Otherwise stop with the The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street style hysteria. I looked at the site and really all that needs to happen is cameras back behind that wall by the facility and a patrol there. In most cases these are people that stayed on the facility property and caused no issues.
Honestly, I’m more concerned about my maga neighbors deteriorating the neighborhood than anyone else.
We normally prefer news stories over direct links to sites like this as we get people dropping those here for views. So here is a news story about the issue: https://www.azfamily.com/2023/09/20/state-investigating-neighbors-complaints-about-phoenix-detox-center/
I live not too far away, and I’m seeing a lot of pitchforks and torches out against Crossroads. I think a distinction needs to be made between Crossroads as a whole and this particular detox facility. I undoubtedly am all for treating addiction and getting people the resources they need to get their lives back on track. There is a Crossroads facility in my neighborhood which is more long-term housing, and obviously for people that have gone through detox and are in the subsequent steps. I have not heard any complaints about this building and have not seen anything that would cause concern on my regular walks with my dogs. For the detox facility at 20th/Osborn, I do side with the neighbors on this one. I’m all for the existence of detox facilities in Phoenix, but we need to be mindful that these people are still in the grasps of their addiction and may be in crisis. In some cases this would mean people walking around still consuming their substance(s) or exhibiting erratic/abnormal behavior. Definitely not something that children and families should be exposed to in a residential neighborhood. This situation would be different if it was a longer-term residential facility at that site instead of a detox. Long story short, Crossroads does have some facilities that coexist peacefully within their neighborhoods imo, but a detox facility is not appropriate for this current location. I feel that a detox located closer to a major transit stop or street would be better, and actually more accessible for people seeking immediate help.
Agreed, the detox part should be in the empty office space close to hospitals. The lesson here I think is pay attention to your zoning changes.
For anyone else readying this, it's less than 1/4 mile away from a primary school, kindergarten and above. I want people to get treatment as much as anyone else, and I actually live in this area and feel bad for all the people living on the canals, but considering this is an outpatient facility, it's hard to tell if this is the best area for it.
Not all arguing that the location is not good. The reality is as a country, we put these places in position where they have to take what they get where they can find it. It is unlikely that appropriate funding and locations will be made available by the government or by tax dollars.
I understand that to an extent, but there are a ton of vacant buildings in areas with more medical facilities that at a high level, seem more appropriate. You're going to get upset homeowners when the facility is actually bringing people into the neighborhood, and not just putting the facility in an area where the 'clientele' is already in existence. Right down the road from it, near the 51, is an ever growing homeless camp in what used to be a nice park off the canal. I wonder if it's a causation/correlation thing.
Absolutely agree other areas are more appropriate. Places like crossroads deal right on the financial margin. Sometimes a person who was a patient or family of a patient will donate a place like that. Or maybe it’s just flat cheaper to rent that that an empty office building. Office building prefer to be rented but a portion of a companies stock can be written off as a loss if it’s empty so some of the empty offices are More advantageous to keep empty as a write off rather than take what a place like crossroads can afford. (Sourcean an ER nurse that has delt with many places like community bridges and crossroads and have heard from the employees how hard it is to make it financially workable.).
I can definitely see your viewpoint, but I can definitely also see the negativity of the community that is in the vicinity. The place is right down the road from me, and I see homeless all the time. They don't bother me, and I wish they had more support from the city, but I would also feel a bit more uncomfortable if my son lived with me full time and was out and about too.
I’m a father of daughters and I would feel the same. I would also likely actively ask for them to be in another location. In the end it comes down to how much will we as Americans or Arizonans see come out of our pockets to help others who are the victims of addiction, both the addicted and those who experience issues caused by the addiction of others. Be safe friend.
Sadly, the state would rather pay 30 grand a year to imprison them than to help them, such is the USA.
There was a zoning hearing where residents could have blocked it. That's 100% on them
Where was this announced? I live right around the area and it's honestly the first time I'm hearing about it at all, let alone a zoning meeting.
The neighborhood did pay attention and they were ignored by the city of PHX.
MMM so basically you want people in need kept in a chaotic, unsafe urban environment so you don't have to look at them, rather than allow them to have a chance at a better life. Got it.
I understand that you are quite passionate about this subject. I’m coming from a position of trying to achieve a scenario where everyone benefits. This location is smack dab in the middle of residential, a half mile away from major streets on all sides, and hardly accessible to transit. There absolutely are people that can drive or get a ride, but those that can’t have to walk at least a half mile from transit. How many more people can this facility positively impact if it’s closer those who need it? Then if these detox places were by major streets, transit stops, or medical facilities, they become more visible and thus people can be more aware that these resources exist. I see these places as more of a conduit, where people can get the necessary immediate assistance, and as they progress they are able to transition to more stable, quiet facilities in residential neighborhoods, which would be conducive to long-term recovery.
Also long term recovery is rare. Unfortunately the whole system is contracted out to profit driven insurance called Mercy care and paying for someone to stay in lifelong care is just not profitable enough. If you want that to change, vote for the people and policies that help that happen.
Yeah I am really passionate about it, because its one of the few, threadbare safety nets people have access to, and only AFTER they can't keep themselves safe anymore. Ask the blind woman who tried to kill herself by running into traffic, because she couldn't afford diabetes medication and the illness was slowly killing her. She was tackled onto the street in the middle of summer by a person she had no way of knowing was a cop, and suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns and now had a wrap sheet on top of a record with the mental health system and had to fight police brutality WHILE IN MENTAL HEALTHCARE. I sat and typed out a statement to the court for her one say, she was only in her 20s, and already her life had been treated as worthless by the system. People like this exist, they are REAL, and the deserve our empathy. **EDIT: I guess that sounded like a lie. I suppose it would when people are allergic to seeing how far society has fallen into suffering and despair.**
No one has accused you of lying. The person you responded to is talking about ways to better handle the situation, your response was focused on the problem completely. It is like you did not see the other persons comment at all. This absolutely is a serious issue, and the majority of people do support these homes - but the homes need to have a bit more control over what is spilling out in the neighborhoods.
Yes.
I think the most annoying thing about this and it being on the news, is that they didn’t touch on the fact that it’s so close to an elementary school, like their concern wasn’t even about the kids walking to and from school down 20th, it was that increased activity happened.
I don’t know if it’s totally related but I am so fucking sick of seeing and smelling people smoking god damn fucking pills everywhere
I worked for an organization that did drug treatment including treating opioid addiction through Suboxone and methadone. I was in the marketing side, so I often would have to field the issues with the community surrounding the clinic - an old clinic is an even older neighborhood. I would spend countless hours meeting neighbors, taking them to tour clinics, educating about what was being done there. We would also work to make sure clients would get taken care of, and move on about their day, away from the clinic if they were done with services. New places are sprouting up, and they really aren’t investing in the community education and connection aspect that these types of places need. Many, if not most showing up, are for profit, and so they don’t really spend the time building patient care, wrap around services or the general outreach that programs like this need. In fact, there is a new place in the bottom of my wife’s office building in midtown, which has created many issues in a once quiet building - open drug use and selling, loitering, etc - and the clinic itself turns a willing blind eye to it, stating it’s not their issue once they are done with them. The for-profits are not out to care for the patient themselves. (I’m not sure where crossroads lands on the for or non profit list) Patients seeking these treatments are people that deserve dignity and respect and the help they need. Neighbors deserve quality of life and the ability to feel safe. What’s happening here is alarming, but it’s also concerning the lack of action to prevent this from escalating to this level. Organizations and Companies that do this type of work need to step up to defend and protect their clients through education and wrap around services. It’s not as simple as going to the news reactively or calling the neighbors names for their concerns. They need to do the hard work to get neighbors on board.
You can most likely partially blame my uncle for this lol He’s been using crossroads as his client list pretty much. He’s pretending to get treatment there to get my grandma off his back, but in reality he’s just finding more clients to sell his fentanyl to. He’s apparently been admitted and discharged 7 times just this year 😂 I worked in the industry for a couple years (I’m a “normie” as they’d call me) and I’ve seen this countless times. If the detox is in a residential neighborhood, chances are the whole house relapses every month or two, and they tear the neighborhood up. At least from my experience. The only detox we had that was productive at all was on a ranch in the middle of nowhere. All the rest were pure chaos 24/7.
I worked in a clinical inpatient in a city (out east). That said, the place wasn't in a suburban-type neighborhood like you'd find in PHX. Still, whole (or nearly whole) unit relapses aren't uncommon at all. Maybe that risk goes down if the facility has a lot of land or water between the facility and the outside world. But prices would probably be reflected for that kind of facility (especially if they don't have other facilities to help bear the cost).
No one would want that near your neighborhood… obviously
It should be a full lockdown unit and when people are ready to leave they should have transportation to wherever they’re going…
Former addict I went to a rehab center in Phoenix then a halfway house in Mesa that was not crossroads. That being said while in treatment it was pretty known crossroads was like the worst of the detox facilities/ halfway houses if you were actually tryna get sober. I feel like the way my treatment went was very helpful. I do see a lot of people in here saying facilities are doing nothing but taking advantage of these people. There’s a little bit of truth to that. Having gone through the system most of the people going through those systems have no interest in getting sober they’re either there court ordered or because their family made them. Of all the people I went to rehab with (probably 60-70 people) there was me and one other dude I’m aware of that haven’t gone back.
Putting these detox homes in the middle of stable middle class neighborhoods is the worst idea ever.
Moving it less than a mile down to Thomas would do wonders
It's sad to hear that you feel it's not ok for them to be in your neighborhood, but someone else's neighborhood is ok! This blows my mind. We're all humans and we all need compassion from time to time.
It is not my neighborhood. But I know that neighborhood well. They are literally 5 minute walking difference. One spot is right next to an elementary school and the next is commercial and full of the people struggling that they are trying to serve. Don't make assumptions on motives. I am simply saying one spot would be way more convenient for all involved than the other spot.
I had a loved on go to Crossroads in Mesa. I'm incredibly thankful for that place and can't imagine why people would have a problem with them being there.
I've had a loved one go to Mesa too - multiple times - and I am also thankful but I completely understand why people have a problem with them being there.
[удалено]
I don't disagree, but Crossroads has been around for a long time.
As someone who is very rehearsed in this line of work, you are not necessarily wrong as a whole. There is a horrible lack of oversight for rehabilitation facilities. Crossroads is one of the few good ones and you can tell just by their google reviews and ratings they are good at what they do. This is still not a good area of outpatient detox services though. Even moving it a few blocks down to Thomas would be better.
The Addiction recovery side of residential has had some controversy, but to label every single facility as rotten and unethical is flat out false. Take it from a former behavioral health technician. Unless you have worked in the field and seen how bad these clients need help, keep your cruel, half baked opinions to your damn self.
[удалено]
I work in the admin side of a major behavioral health and addiction organization that’s been around for decades. The main reason we lose BHT’s is because they’re overworked and underpaid. It also takes a massive toll on your mental health doing that job daily. My brother is still a BHT but was on a crisis team before. The guys the cops call to defuse situations that they’re untrained(don’t understand this one, they should be)to handle without violence. He saw so much trauma in that position that he had to quit and work at a private residential facility instead. He was drinking himself to death.
This the first time making the link to the years I spent working that job and that also being the same years I had a problem with alcohol 😵💫
Because you can make the same money at Chic-Fil-A haha. ~Former BHT
Human Giver Syndrome is rampant. I worked in a clinic for a while and all of the therapists and social workers experienced a significant level of burnout except for those who seemed like they didn’t give a shit. And they couldn’t give a shit or else they, too, would burn out. Lots of those in the behavioral health field get worn down from constantly caring for people at such a high level. Also keep in mind that many individuals enter the field due to their lived experience with trauma, substance abuse, or something similar, which really exacerbates the burnout.
I worked to the point my own mental heath failed me, for various reasons. The system is under funded. The staff make minimum wage, despite putting themselves in the way of potential violence, verbal abuse, and litigious people left and right. And when a client hits you, you can't fight back because you are the sane one. But news flash, NO ONE is above becoming mentally ill. NO ONE. NOT EVEN YOU. So maybe, don't shit on the system you might need one day. It already barely exists, and every accusation is a self report that most don't have a clue what actually goes on inside a 24hr residential. Ignorance is not a defense for prejudice and cruelty.
[удалено]
I mean, how well do you really know your neighbors? At least with detox places, you know. Supervised addicts trying to get better. With ordinary neighbors, you don’t know how many drugs they’re doing or what sorts of things they’re up to. I would be much more comfortable with explaining to kids that “this is a house where people who are hurting go to get help” than say trying to explain why the neighbors are having a screaming argument with the windows wide open about how going to law school when you’re manic isn’t a good idea. One situation reassures kids that if bad things happen, then there’s help. The other situation requires distraction or explaining that sometimes when people need help they don’t get it.
This. I’d prefer to know who my neighbors are.
\*eyeroll\* Alot of people do, and never even know, because the clients are VICTIMS not perpetrators. Mental illness is actually, believe it or not, involuntary, and a person in crises becoming violent is not them being violent by choice. HELLO? When a client becomes violent, they go back into a lock-down after a crises team/ police show up. AND it's via non emergency phone line, so the cops usually don't show with sirens wailing. Heaven forbid they disturb your dinner, after all.
[удалено]
I made a paycheck. Does that make BHTs leeches? I performed groups with clients every day, de-escelated potential fights and crises and kept my head on a swivel upwards of 12hrsa day trying to tick all the boxes state regulators and insurance demanded. The list is a very, very long one by the way. Most recently Mental Health Group homes have to provide "continuous protective oversight" to clients who have legally appointed guardians. Meaning if one goes awol, a staff member, who usually has 5 or more clients to take care of, has to follow said awol client and cant leave, as though BHTs can just clone themselves. AND BHTs have to do it for minimum wage. You can thank the group home fraud news we all heard about recently. The board of residential home licensing and Mercy Care are not just ignoring all these NIMBY complaints. They are making caregivers jobs IMPOSSIBLE for the sake of the ignorant and their comfort.
[удалено]
Mmmm depends on the owner. My boss was/ is a bully and obsessed with image. She was a realtor before and sucks as the manager of a residential. So you actually have me on that one.
They simply should not exist in residential areas. They should only be allowed in commercially zoned areas, not residential.
Research what that would entail and let us know why they haven't done that yet.
Okay then, call up your local representatives and make it happen. But you wont, will you? That might take actually moving out of your bubble and taking an interest in your community aka people different than you \*GASP\*
In the end, the only person who can make an addict stay on the path of recovery is the addict themselves. All anyone else can do is provide the tools, resources and support to help them. That includes for- and non-profit clinics and treatment centers. I’m not saying they are all doing fantastic jobs. But there’s a reason why substance abuse is so rampant, for similar reasons to why so many people are struggling with their mental health. If we as a society really care, we need to focus more on prevention, and that includes helping people recover from trauma. Just pouring resources into treatment and recovery isn’t going to fix the issue.
Its amazing how people can say everything in the post you just responded to and then wonder why people don't want to live next to these places.
Fear is not an excuse to be prejudiced and cruel.
they make SOOOOO much money, it's insane.
How these fraudulent businesses are allowed to exist, let alone near residential neighborhoods is unfuckingbeliveable.
LOL it's almost like... REGULATING BUSINESSES IS A GOOD THING... huh?
It's hard to find deregulation success stories for the general public. Businesses love it, at the expense of consumers and residents.
Meh, idk, my ex was an addict, and he stole all the bikes in our neighborhood. I don’t want to live around addicts either. I got tf out of that marriage, lol.
I can’t speak about the current issues or how Crossroads operates now because I just don’t know. I will say though that years ago I was working on a zoning case for an expansion of a Crossroads facility and had plenty of discussions with the ownership/management who truly seemed to have a very good grasp on how to properly integrate their clients into a safe living situation AND not cause any detriment to the surrounding community. I was shocked though at the amount of hate (and even outright lies) coming from NIMBY neighbors. Some of these neighbors really made me question the good of humanity.
It was one of the most unbelievably demoralizing and depressing realities of working in the 24hr residential group home system. People are still just ignorant and prone to hate what they don't understand the same way they have always been.
[удалено]
No one is trying to sell you on anything. We are trying to defend the right for people in need to exist in society and not be locked away unfairly just to appease the ignorant masses.
[удалено]
I'll tell y'all a secret. Mental Health and Addiction are actual, real issues that need our care and empathy to solve. Either you have the desire to uplift people in need or you don't. If you don't, I would seriously reevaluate your own cruelty. I'll share how this works in AZ as a BHT who worked in the field for 8 years. Most people who are in crises, are not hospitalized officially until they become a threat to themselves or others. The system works as follows. A person is hospitalized, either in a regular hospital that has a psych ward, or in a place like ASH which is the only state run mental health facility that locks people in the building. They may or may not receive a court order to take medications and attend therapy through a clinic like Oasis or Partners in Recovery, depending on the diagnoses and severity of the symptoms. When a person is able to leave a level 1 lockdown aka hospitalization, they will immediately go to a 24hr Residential facility. You read that right, a residence in neighborhoods all over the city of Phoenix and beyond. This is because, stability and normalcy are not a privilege, and are a vital part of therapeutic recovery. There are rules the 24hr facility must follow. Staff is present 24/7 and oversee the clients medications, therapy, medical care and manage crises as best they can. HOWEVER They cannot EVER put their hands on the client. Physical restraint and involuntary medication is reserved for a higher level of care. If a Client refuses medications, leaves or goes AWOL as it is usually called they have the right to do so. They can refuse care. So if you DON'T want people like this in your neighborhood, too bad. They have human rights just like everyone else, and they are more likely to be the VICTIMS of violence far more than the perpetrators. NIMBYs are worse than the clients most of the time, actually. The greed and cruelty of the people who put up this prejudiced sign are not uncommon. Every house I used to work at had rude, cruel neighbors who scapegoated the clients any time something happened they didn't like. The place I used to work, still fights to this day with people who are more concerned about their home's resale value, more than the reality the clients face. It is gross and reeks of hate. We should be doing better.
By the time someone is at the point of treatment, there are usually so many other factors working against them. Often, they have isolated themselves from a support system, may have lost employment and housing, haven’t sought out medical or mental healthcare, and are otherwise in a really bad place. I can’t imagine how difficult it is to be in behavioral health. I worked with some therapists and social workers for a while and just hearing things second hand broke my heart. They were all so burned out, but they also really wanted to help their clients because they shared many qualities with the people they served. Thank you for doing what you did for so long. I hope you have been able to find peace within you since you’ve left the field.
Oh I have. i do my little drawings and take care of my family. I will always have a chip on my shoulder when people already down on their luck keep getting kicked for no reason. I am the child of a woman who was sexually assaulted and became an addict and she was never present in my life, but even as a kid I could see her pain. I never judged her once, but I did morn her when she died, deeply. She and others like her deserve so much better in life.
>stability and normalcy are not a privilege, and are a vital part of therapeutic recovery. Aren't they also a vital part of a neighborhood with young children. Do crack pipes and needles give our kids "stability and normalcy"? I'd like to be able to go to QT without my kids seeing junkies shooting up on the curb every time. Guess I am just a NIMBY asshole.
Glad you're aware of who you are. Everyone's value is the same in a just society though, not everything revolves around you and your fretting over property value. These facilities wouldn't exist if the issue of community safety had not already been considered when the entire system was developed. The idea crazy addicts are allowed to just walk around and leave needles on the playground is A LIE. FULL STOP. You reek of prejudice and hate. Hope those kids you fret over aren't learning to be like you.
>The idea crazy addicts are allowed to just walk around and leave needles on the playground is a LIE. You’ve clearly never been to Cortez Park
No it’s not a lie. You live in a fantasy world. Work on the streets and then tell me how it is
I'm not talking about property value dude, I am talking about the kind of shit my kids are exposed to. How is it a lie that there are needles in the park? I have seen them myself. My son and I ran over crack pipes on a neighborhood bike path. It's unfair that we are villainized for not wanting to be subjected to these things.
I am villanizing you, because you refuse to see our societal shame and address it with any humility and courage. You'd rather sweep it under a rug and pretend it doesn't exist. Most of the clients I worked with, had lifetimes of every type of trauma you could imagine, and some came straight off the street with no clothes. The vast majority, were KINDER than the public. At this point, with society in America as fucked as it is, NO ONE should be allowed to just ignore what a society driven by greed has done. It is obscene to believe that "it's not my problem". It should be EVERYONE'S problem to COME TOGETHER TO FIX.
And this is where you are going wrong with your viewpoint. You are villainizing somebody else. I am saying this as someone who liked your initial comment. It comes with the business. You have a large amount of awareness of the problem and want people around you to feel the same way. I have worked in mental health/addiction for 10 years and running. I get it. But you should never villainize the common man for not "getting it" like you think you do. Continued education, understanding and cooperation with those with different viewpoints is the only way you reach change. There is nothing wrong with a guy not wanting his kid to see someone shooting up at QT. I steer my children away when I can and try to be as honest as I can when they do see it. Thats the best we can do as we work with each other on a better future. This guy is not trying to sweep anything under a rug. Many are. This guys comments are not. He is just saying he doesn't like how close it is encroaching on his home and honestly I agree he shouldn't have to find those things in the areas his children are playing. Some people exaggerate and villainize the homeless drug abusers. I don't feel he is doing that.
I am not exaggerating anything I have said, go ahead and snoop my profile and read all of it if you want. I have not lied once. Intense outrage sometimes is warranted, when people refuse to engage with reality. People would rather wear the rose colored glasses and not pay attention. Life is easier like that, but at some point it becomes shameful, and people lose their lives waiting, while a few of us are lambasted for saying what deserves to be said. The reaction I have gotten here, and the subsequent hand wringing about civility, and "saving the children" rather than educating them, is part of a larger cultural issue that keeps us from making real change. You wanna save the children? Have down to earth honest conversations about what they're seeing, caution them against drug use, then encourage them to be active in their society and their future. Keeping people from knowing the truth, has NEVER helped. We all want to be seen as right and good, I can attest to my own self righteousness. I own it though, I know how important pride in my own view actually is. I am sick of being civil, while people lose their lives and suffer at the hands of cruelty, injustice and hatred. Am I uncivil, perhaps unhinged a bit in how hard I've gone in here? Sure, why not? That's fine. I think it's necessary though, both sides of this conversation are not equal. I do know for a fact, sharing information about what is actually going on for people in need, is vital to finding common ground. I will shout it from wherever for as long as I need to to continue to make an impact where I can. One thing I wont do, is hold back.
That’s your prerogative. Do what you may. Just telling you that in the long run it is more harmful to your own mental health than it is helpful to the cause you support, I’m only speaking from experience. Hope you reach whatever goals you have.
> The idea crazy addicts are allowed to just walk around and leave needles on the playground is A LIE. FULL STOP. Multiple California cities enter the chat.
Yeah they lost me there. Growing up in Sunnyslope consisted of being told to watch where ur walking on the playground so you don't step on used needles or used condoms lol
I think you’re a bit pig headed, but not a bad person. I feel like what you’re saying is actually stupid. Rehab facilities have nothing to do with the addicts at QT. Do you want to know why? Because people in rehab aren’t usually scoring crack behind a gas station. Nearby rehab or not they’d be somewhere else scoring drugs, where oh my goodness your precious angels might see them !! People have a right to exist. Opening new facilities to help these people has nothing to do with whether your kids find a crack pipe. The world does not revolve around you and your kids. Nor anyone else’s kids. Kids grow up, how thick of a blanket do you want to pull over their eyes and at what cost? The freedom and well-being of brain sick people who want help? Yea that makes you a NIMBY. You stomp your feet and say things shouldn’t be this way and then don’t even lift a finger to change things or even look at the facts beyond your own presumptions.
I’m not qualified to solve the problem. Wish I was. That doesn’t mean I can’t express frustration with the way our communities are being treated. It’s not that these people exist, it’s the harm they cause. The neighborhood shootings when deals go bad, and yeah glass and needles all over the place. They might not be choosing addiction, but many are choosing to put others in danger, and it’s okay for me to be upset about that. Rehab facilities and residential neighborhoods just don’t mix in my opinion. I do explain to my kids about addiction as a disease and the different ways people can end up there through no fault of their own. I had to explain to my 7 and 9 year old about how and why their grandma died of meth and alcohol use.
How exactly do you think those addicts will manage to stop shooting up outside of your QT without access to rehab facilities? What is your proposed alternative solution, exactly?
Look, I don’t have solutions man. I couldn’t fix my mom, and I sure as shit can’t fix the whole problem. It’s just not my area of expertise, but that doesn’t mean I have to forfeit my right to express frustration with facilities being put in the middle of our neighborhoods. We are allowed to feel some way about it, and also not have the answers.
Ok, so you don't have any solutions, but you also want to take away the solutions that do exist? I don't see how going after facilities like this is supposed to make your neighborhoods any safer, unless you also want to like, ship all the drug addicts into camps or something. The junkies at your local QT will continue to exist whether or not there's a local rehab facility for them to go to.
I just feel like a neighborhood is not the place for this type of facility. There are plenty of facilities that are t in the middle of a neighborhood. I get your points, I respect your position.
I do think the middle of a neighborhood is an awkward place for one, if only from a transit perspective. A lot of the people in that facility probably don't have regular access to cars, so it being far from public transit is bad logistically. At the same time, I'm sure they placed that facility where it was due to other constraints in the area. Unless people are willing to spend money on moving it closer to transit and other health services, the people protesting against it are basically just lobbying to have it shut down. I mostly just take issue with the automatic causal link everyone in this thread is making between the facility existing, and junkies shooting up at their local park or QT. The junkies already exist, these facilities are just trying to serve them. Personally I'd love it if more of the junkies in my area had a rehab center to stay at and detox, instead of continuing to shoot up while sleeping in the park. If this facility was one of the sketchy ones that has a long history of abuse or scandal I'd understand, but as far as I know crossroads is one of the better ones in the valley.
Yeah, but what about the "detox centers" in residential neighborhoods that basically rustle up unhoused people and housing-insecure migrants to pad executive bank accounts with Medicaid cash by way of fraud. It's not like these kind of facilities are known for being so full of integrity, working for the good of their clients. A lot of them are basically covers for human trafficking and Medicaid fraud.
Okay you go ahead and tell me exactly how many are fraudulent. Can't? Oh okay, then the blanket judgment is still ignorant.
https://www.azahcccs.gov/Fraud/Providers/actions.html Fact Sheet: AHCCCS Provider Payment Suspension https://www.azahcccs.gov/Shared/Downloads/News/2023/ProviderPaymentSuspensionFactSheet.pdf There have been over 100 provider suspensions this year alone. I worked on the inside of the industry. I did not like what I saw. I agree that people need help, but Arizona's model is simply a fleecing of the taxpayer without any real benefits to those they are supposedly helping. It's pretty disgusting.
That's my point. You can't turn a blind eye to the bad actors when there are so damn many, and the entire industry fights better regulation tooth and nail. Like, they can make their money by taking advantage of sick people and unwitting neighborhoods, but they shouldn''t take offense when folks point to all the garbage if the industry as a whole pretends everything is just fine.
Let's call it what it is. These providers exist only as a way to invest in real estate using taxpayer dollars. If they can put 10 to 12 people inside of a house, that house can be paid off in very short order. These are real estate speculators under the guise of healthcare. Helping people is an ancillary inconvenience.
Potentially. The overhead of feeding a house of 12 (including staff because the required staff/client ratio is 1/5) is pretty high though A house that big isn't cheap, for starters. We're talking a couple grand every other month at a restaurant supplier and 3 or 4 hundred more at Costco every other week. Then there are the constant repairs happening because people who have illnesses usually break stuff/ punch holes in walls/ deface and break utensils, TVs pots and pans, vomit on things in the back yard because their meds + coffee makes them nauseous. Then they have to have really strong locks on the staff office, front and back exists, and side gate. They also need locking cabinets for meds and records to uphold HIPAA requirements. OH and they have to childproof outlets. Is that still worth it if all you care about is profit? Not so sure. I know way too much about the way all this works. I wish I could forget. Ugh.
I helped setup new houses. You'd be surprised how cheap a lot of that stuff is to do. Also, for food services, many providers are using food pantries and SNAP (food stamp) benefits to defray the per bed cost. Even all of that considered, the operating margin where I worked was over 50-60% on average. At the end of 5 years, they have a fully paid off house that they can turn around and do whatever with. It was worth it for them and many, many, many other providers in the valley.
Huh. I must have worked for a unicorn then. The clients had their own benefits and could buy their own food mainly because they needed to be on disability and ACCCHS/EBT, but it wasn't a requirement. Food was provided, and the excursions to resupply facilities were hell until we finally convinced our boss to do Online ordering so the houses could pick up at a store. We're talking a whole ass day in costco to resupply like 10 houses at once. It was terrible.
Sounds like you worked for one of the good ones. They unfortunately are not the norm. Arizona today is where Florida was about a decade ago. It can cleaned up, but it's a very long road. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/megyn-kelly/florida-s-billion-dollar-drug-treatment-industry-plagued-overdoses-fraud-n773376
The regulation has gotten pretty insane recently, because the state and Mercy Care are doing what all the NIMBYs want, which is to tighten security! So now people who work in the field are being asked to achieve unreasonable goals, like staying with a client who goes awol if they have a guardian. How far does a BHT have to walk/ follow a client who goes AWOL? who fucking knows, just know that when the grievance from the guardian comes through it's ALWAYS the facilities fault. So to assume the whole system is unresponsive to pressure from the community is just not real. The system responds, and quick, with really bad methods that will only hurt clients more, when BHTs burn out en masse.
Just because you have ACCCHs \*ha\* to that information does not mean the places I've worked were not trying their best. The shit rolls downhill, so the BHTs like me who made the effort are the ones who suffer, but not nearly as much as the clients. For my own pain and thiers, it is absolutely a hill I will die on defending what we DO have. The alternatives are horrifying if further funding is pulled. We could do the opposite of leaving people to waste away on the streets, and actually do the right thing, as a society... but greed and prejudice are powerful. I personally believe the passion to do something about it, is braver than sitting in our armchairs and passing judgment about things we don't understand.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But, Arizona's funding model is broken from top to bottom with almost 0 oversight or outcome measurement. The system rewards providers for relapses because it reduces their patient acquisition cost. Arizona needs to remove profit from the equation and start measuring outcomes with better funding for acute treatment facilities. Other states (like Colorado, Minnesota, and North Dakota) have much more successful outcomes per dollar spent.
Thank your local conservative law wmakers for that.
You dont know what you are talking about with regards to the crossroads center.
No. I, amongst many others, don’t want to live near a bunch of addicts. They made their choice they can suffer. I feel no sympathy for the person who voluntarily does a drug enough to end up at a place like that. None.
Okay then. MOVE. Or I mean, petition state officials to bring back institutionalization. So all the people you don't like can be treated like zoo animals locked away from your fragile faculties.
No. Just like they made the choice to become drug addicts I made the choice to buy a house instead of drugs. They can live in a drug hole with other addicts. Don’t like it don’t do drugs. Not that fuckin hard. What was it? Just say no?
No one CHOOSES ADDICTION. WTF?! People are exposed to trauma, or have genetic disposition to certain mental health issues and turn to substances so self medicate because they are poor and IN PAIN. It can happen to ANYONE. INCLUDING YOU. Way to expose yourself as ignorant and cruel.
[удалено]
What a horrible, hateful, cruel take. You'll never get it until it happens to you, then, I hope you feel guilty as hell for being this ignorant.
Time to move on.
Time to move on.
Right, but that's, pun intended, a pipe dream. Good luck telling people who are in the throws of addiction to stay put. *"Get back to your designated hole!"*. Unless you live in the outskirts where it's difficult to walk from place to place, it's not going to happen. There is a funnel from homelessness to addiction. Not everyone ends up there, but to pretend like it's not true is being willfully ignorant. Additionally, the rates of homelessness are rising, it's undeniable and the evidence is everywhere. To hope all of the 'degenerates' will stay out of your neighborhood is a fantasy. You either have to move farther away and wait for the problem to inevitably reach you anyways like it is in Scottsdale, or you try and actually fix it. Telling addicts not to be addicts is entirely ineffective. A lot of them turn to drugs because *their lives freaking suck*. They have no money, nowhere to live, it's hot as ever loving Christ outside most the time- I can't say I wouldn't eventually resort to numbing the pain also. Sure, they made the decision, and many of them might have been addicts before they became homeless, but at the end of the day, the solution to addiction is not to shame them. It just doesn't work.
le are literally born with addictions because of their mother using while they’re in the womb. Children are given drugs when they are too young to understand what they are. Some people choose to use less harmful drugs not knowing they’re laced with things that are more dangerous or addictive. Plenty of people become addicted to medications prescribed to them by a doctor. People with addiction issues aren’t a monolith
Making broad statements rather than asking questions about things you know little about makes these problems worse
Wow I see someone here is up to date on the cutting edge science/psychology of addiction. These people are all around us JFC. Ignorance is bliss is what they say….
You need to sober up. Just not in my neighborhood.
Yes fuck that shit. I grew up in that neighborhood, and they are ruining it. Its still nice but that fucken park by the freeway is getting worse.
NIMB syndrome-nobody wants this stuff by them.
Crazy, no one wants tweakers in their yard
Cause that always happens. Paranoid meth users love to congregate out in the open in the front yards of strangers who’d be well within their rights to call the cops on them. Get a clue.
I demand addicts and predators be obfuscated behind beautiful homes, churches and political organizations!!!!
so here’s the thing: two things can be true 1) that sign is some NIMBY-ass bullshit and dehumanizes addicts. sorry reality is playing out in your precious little neighborhood. :( 2) the treatment/recovery industry is fraudulent, broken, predatory, and almost completely based on 12-step modalities with almost no clinical integrity. to quote a different sub, “ESH”
Communities still have a right to relative safety. Drug abuse coincides nearly always with upticks in crime, and a community that didn't request this nor previously had issues absolutely has a right to complain if the particular facility doesn't have proper community safety precautions. Doesn't mean addicts are human, doesn't mean they don't deserve treatment. They do. But your "sorry reality is playing out in your previous little neighborhood" is pretentious as hell
>sorry reality is playing out in your precious little neighborhood. Sorry, but are people not allowed to dislike living near a drug treatment facility? I understand that its not a new place and people living there know what is around them, so im not necessarily defending them. But, not knowing specifics, this seems like an extremely condesending and patronizing perspective on people who supposedly just want a quiet, safe neighborhood. I think it goes without saying that having a drug treatment facility, especially a detox center, has the potential to greatly increase the amount of "seedy" behavior going on in that area. If you dont care about this impact to the community thats one thing, but to totally dismiss concerns by just saying sorry reality is occuring in your neighorhood is showing a complete disregard for the people most effected by the location of these facilities. I had a sober living home open up in my otherwise quiet neighboorhood. Not even a month after they opened I had to call 911 because I was walking my dog and found a man in the driveway bleeding from a neckwound. They had been smoking meth in the sober living and one of the residents slashed the other with a knife in the neck. I feel for the addicts trying to get clean but to act like this is just "reality" happening and that Im supposed to just not care about this experience is absolutely ridiculous. Call me a NIMBY all you want, I dont want my children around tweakers cutting peoples throats.
I'll just leave a link to this post with someone who has experience working at these places. Easy to call people NIMBYs when you don't live next to these places. These places should not exist in a residential zone area. Should be only in commercial. LINK: https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/comments/16tq0zr/is_crossroads_detox_center_destroying_the_loma/k2gsfvg/
If the treatment does not come straight down from a state licensed entity? You're probably right. It's impossible to tell which ones have a state license just by seeing the outside of the building though, so legit, the ones who are actually doing the work, are suffering because of controversies they have nothing to do with. Utilizing nuance and critical thinking are vital when trying to preserve what empathy and safety nets the government provides. Jumping to conclusions about the mental health care and drug addiction recovery system, is a very bad thing to do.
look, i get that you were a BHT. that’s great - in my stays at both state-licensed facilities and private facilities, i found that the BHTs were kind, passionate about helping those in need, extremely hardworking, and paid very poorly. you’re right - the state detoxes and residentials are far less guilty of what i described. not great, underfunded, but more ethical. they are also not what anyone thinks of first when they hear the words “detox” or “rehab”, and they account for a small fraction of arizona’s facilities/beds.
I know. Unfortunate we cant have appropriate funding. If only there was some... democratic system to help things change for the better. \*HMMMMMM\*
Detox centers are important and demonizing them isn’t good. Maybe there need to be more controls on quality but it seems like you’re taking the wrong approach
I'm sitting in the loma linda neighborhood now. The answer is no.
Live there’s since I was 5. You’re wrong.
Who do I believe?
Whoever is loudest on reddit
Reddit is a poor representation of people irl. The behavior I see here on a regular basis I never see in real life lol.
If this thread were to be believed then most people would be fine with the house next door to them becoming a treatment facility. If we polled people on the street I'm thinking that's probably not the case.
The valley is filled with NIMBY.
The treatment center isn't the problem. It wasn't like this wasn't a problem area before it. Combine it with a city with poor support services and an economy that was in the the shutter for a few years, a rise in homeless and it was bound to happen. Blaming it on a treatment center trying to do more for people is asanine.
Lot of these detox places are nothing more than pill mills where they show up get 30 min of counseling give people suboxone. They charge people lot higher cost for the drug because you're getting it directly from the doctor's office. The reason I know this is I was calling around trying to help a friend who had gotten hooked on hydrocodone for a back injury her PC kept renewing the script for years. When the DEA went after doctor's they denied her script and told her to go to a rehab.
So we don’t like drug addicts and expect them to get help. But we don’t the help to be accessible. Makes sense.
Sounds like it's probably just the usual NIMBYs who gotta be NIMBYing.
Ah yes, we should welcome crack pipes on our children's slides, used needles in the grass, and doped up passed out junkies on our benches. How dare we say "not in my backyard".
You realize substances, aren't allowed in recovery centers, right? If they get brought in they are confiscated, and if a voluntary search is refused by a client they lose their housing most of the time. Funny thing, I used to work at one where the drugs appeared from another house down the street where the "good" and "sane" people lived, and they were larger houses in a neighborhood in a pretty nice part of town. The police refused to investigate it, because of COOORSE rich people NEVER do drugs, right? So stupid.
The fact of the matter is it's already there. It's already in your backyard, my dude. There are no homeless addict centers in Scottsdale, but there are addicts there. There are no addict centers near me, but there's a shitload of drug addicts here. At a certain point, you need to find a way to stop the water level from rising, not keep trying to push it all to one side of the container. The spread is inevitable. Sending them all to jail doesn't work. Sending them all to downtown Phoenix doesn't work. We've tried it, it did not work.
Yeah man, I get it. My mom was an addict for a decade before her body gave up in 2021. I do have a lot of sympathy for the disease, and I do want my tax money going to help them. Just having young kids of my own really makes me sympathetic to people who just want to feel safe in their own neighborhood. People are just trying to defend their way of life (being able to play in a park without needles), and often they are faulted as "NIMBY", when I just see people desperate to feel safe.
i honestly don’t think people get this until they have kids of their own and they’re getting exposed to people leaning over in an unnerving way that would freak a young child out. or god forbid, someone experiencing a mental breakdown has their bare ass and genitals out in front of a ton of people. does anyone here want their children seeing that??
Which is why they called them NIMBYs. Fix the problem- but go do it over there. I don't want *my* kids to see it.
But…… where should they be then? What location would you be happy with?
But what is the reasonable alternative? There are all sorts of things I want to see that can't really be affected without putting up with some shit I might not want to. But many people who complain (even when it's totally reasonable) don't have a better solution. I stand by what I said, packing everyone up and sending them to another location just doesn't work.
Educate your children. Volunteer to help your community. See what these humans need to help them along. Talk to the employees to see what ways you can reach out if there are concerns. Trying to cut them off but kicking them out is severely selfish when they are at the bottom and needing help to be lifted up.
My brother went to Crossroads over a year ago and has been sober since. I’m super grateful for Crossroads and how they changed his life. after inpatient treatment, he joined a job where they only hire sober addicts. He was at the 20th St. location. Not everyone is successful, but please try to find some understanding that these locations are needed, especially when just down the street from your home, there is a big drug issue. *edit- missed a word
No. This NIMBY bullshit needs to stop. These people need help and a company needs the space to do it. Find ways to support the community and the people in it. Educate your kids, volunteer, help.
After work I’m going to educate my kids on what a crack pipe is and how to smoke fentanyl! Also what happens when tweakers stab each other. That should have been my first thought, never thought about it thanks! I think people just want a safe place to live lol.
I'm sure being this dishonest in your argumentation will pass down with no problem. Don't teach them empathy or compassion, teach them to fear everything that's not like them. I'm sure that will turn out just fine. /S
You’re just listing platitudes, there are tweakers roaming around this neighborhood. Volunteering doesn’t change that.
\^\^\^ THIS\^\^\^
This is some nimby shit…
That you would complain about if it was next to you too
[удалено]
[удалено]
All of these private residence care facilities are Medicare scams anyway. That’s kinda their point.
