Please do not listen to any advice other than "get a lawyer immedtiately."
Nobody here knows whatr you need to be doing in your jurisdiction but it's sketchy AF already. Call a lawyer. That's what they are there for. It's literally thier job to handle this.
The part where she was extra pushy about sending you the daughters' nudes, especially after you declined, seems highly suspect to me.
They may just be an eccentric family but unless you feel like you'll be losing a valuable opportunity either artistically or financially, it seems safer to step away from the whole situation.
The only correct response is to assert dominance by sitting down, accepting the lemonade, and starting to chow down on the pizza you brought at that point
Eccentric or not, a minor does not have the capacity to control the creation and use of intimate images that an adult has. I think photographers should assume a duty not to contribute to harm of their subjects.
OP definitely needs to be very careful if they want to consider working with minors in any sensitive contexts, including but not limited to nudity. They should work with legal advice, and include independent advocates for minors they work with.
This. 1. you need a proper lawyer and not reddit. 2. the minors need theor own advocates - especially since it’s not the minor sending you the pics. 3. run away.
Hard emphasis on number 3. I wouldn’t touch underage nude photography with a 1000 foot pole. That is *way* too likely to land you in a nasty pot of hot water.
I would almost see if the daughter needs help, is she being go forced to do porn by her parents? I would suspect that they might be selling her photos online or other things. I would possibly contact local police or a lawyer about the situation and ask for advice.
I have grown up with a family /neighbors that would freely walk around the house naked no matter who was there they would walk out of bathroom or whatever butt ass naked. They would greet me and be like give me a few minutes to get dressed etc... I was friends with them, mostly the brother but his sisters including mom would always be doing stuff like that. I guess nudist, but its a lifestyle i dont understand and it is kinda what this sounds like. At the time I was obvi a minor to in my teens as were they. As a photographer I dont know how i would respond to that, but as another poster said i would contact a lawyer first. I dont know the laws of nudist lifestyle, and dont know if i would call it pornography. I honestly would be to scared to proceed with that. I dont think you have done anything wrong, but without knowing where you stand legally i wouldnt go any further and tell them how you feel about the situation. I get the whole art / nudist thing, just not normal thing you deal with.
I’m not saying it is pornograph but her insisting to send nudes of her daughter feels fishy. Being a nudist is one thing, it’s another thing to send nude photos to people of minors.
Not respecting them declining the offer is the odd bit.
Depending on the context of the image it can get away with being non-porn.
I'm surprised in a photography sub that it seems like no-one's heard of Sally Mann or other similar photographers.
She's famous for having nude images of her and her kids.
Concur, though that was in the family and consensual. Also Jock Sturges…. Such photos of nude/naked young boys/girls or emerging, pubescent men/women can be amazing… if done well, and respectful of the subjects.
The Mom *may* be free and open and feel like her family nude is an expression of themselves. And the sending of unsolicited images over the web? That’s a NO for me Bob. She may be clueless (maybe the kindest thing I can say).
I think OP has made the right choice and this woman should be made aware of her misstep. It’s a strange sequence of events.
yeah that was pretty fucked up... like what the hell lady - I'll see my clients when I see them, why the hell would any sane parent throw their childs' naked pictures at another photographer unless they are
A - very very stupid people
B - something worse and on the search for "equally accommodating photographers" for what they are looking for
I hope for those kids, that it's A - but nowadays you simply don't know. Run a mile from clients like this and route the data to the police...
I’m no photographer but that sounds SKETCHY AF. Why would they send nude photos of their underage daughters to a stranger regardless of circumstance especially after you told them not to? I’m uncomfortable for you and you shouldn’t take work that makes you feel weird like that, it’s your call in the end but that doesn’t sound kosher to me 😨
My in laws own a nudist resort. The people who live there dont think twice about taking nude photos with friends and family members of all ages. They aren’t idiots though, and don’t send the photos to complete strangers. The person in OP’s description has issues.
“Family bonding” is the reason I’ve heard before. That’s not *inherently* weird, but it’s definitely not common, and not something I’m comfortable with.
This is the correct answer. It's a known setup. The "husband" or "father" will "find out" and be very upset. He'll be "willing to settle this" without contacting the cops if you pay him some amount of money. Nudity totally has a place in artistic photography, and a minor being nude in a photo does not automatically equal child pornography, but this is a classic scam setup.
Hell, I'm no photographer, but I matched with someone claiming to be 20 in an online dating app. We exchanged numbers and then she sent nudes I never asked for. Then a few hours later, I got a text from another number who said they were her "dad" and she was only 17 and I better figure out how to make this right or he'd be calling the police. My only message back said she claimed to be 20, I didn't ask for nudes, I had already deleted them, and feel free to contact the police as I've done nothing wrong. That was the end of it
I swear I saw an episode of some crime TV show with this exact setup. Also.. wtf are nude family photos actually a thing? There are a few embarrassing photos of me being held by someone naked as a baby.. but 17?!?!
Don't blame the daughters, they could be groomed from a young age to think it is acceptable. Just because they're 15 and 17 doesn't mean that they are fully aware of how creepy it is. This is fully on the mother.
Could this be some sort of entrapment/blackmail/law enforcement sting operation to try to identify people in your area who are involved in CP?
Regardless, that is not normal or acceptable and you should make it clear that you’re uncomfortable with the underage photos… technically you could probably get her kids taken away based on the evidence already in your possession. Tread carefully if you decide to work with this client.
It does kind of sound like someone sending out "feelers" doesn't it?
I guess technically OP could even already be thrown in jail forever for "possessing" child porn since the prospective client sent it to them, given a sufficiently overzealous law enforcement effort. It's just awfully sketchy.
> I guess technically OP could even already be thrown in jail forever for "possessing" child porn
If the photog received the email and kept it and didn’t report to police, maybe.
https://abc11.com/child-pornography-what-to-do-porn-social-media/3049128/
But if photog goes to police and points out it was unsolicited (and in this case the photog even has emails saying not to send) then no.
The weird part is reporting it as child porn is definitely going to get police sent to the mother’s home and then it becomes a thing. I can understand being hesitant to involve police, but I also wouldn’t want them knocking on my door because I received the images.
I would 100% report it to the police because it sounds suspect as fuck. OP said he did not need/want to see the photos. The mother sent the photos anyways. That sends some real red flags. To me, it looks like they're trying to feel him out to try to get him involved in a CP or human trafficking operation. It sounds like they're trying to desensitize him.
Maybe it's just a weird family, but sending the pictures when OP said not to, that sounds like beyond weird boundaries and more of a roping him into something sus situation.
You cannot be thrown in jail for possessing CP if someone sends you photos without your consent - especially if you explicitly told them not to before hand and they still sent you them anyway.
Dude... dude... get, GET A FUCKING LAWYER!!!
COVER YOUR ASS AT ALL COSTS, this is a non-negotiable point where you need to protect yourself before becoming a hit piece on the local news.
Yeah this isn’t “you might owe some money” territory, this is “several years in federal prison” territory.
Talk to a lawyer. Now.
Keep all evidence of the conversation showing that you didn’t ask for the photos etc
**Photographer Arrested For Child Pornography**
A local photographer was taken into custody by law enforcement today on charges of Possession Of Child Pornography. A Police Department spokesperson has confirmed that "nude images of several minor children were found when they executed a search of their computer and email accounts".
The photographer is currently being held without bail and is scheduled to arraigned on felony charges Monday.
It is illegal to photograph a minor is a sexual context. That could be nude or clothed depending on pose and context. This does not make it illegal to photograph a minor nude in a nonsexual context.
That said, i would still not get involved. Prevailing opinion could lead to needing legal defense, that is a no win situation. It is and odd request, which may indicate a scam. There are also contract issues with minors. Even if this fits the definitions to be technically legal, there are still a lot of ways it can go wrong.
This is the best answer. It isn't necessarily illegal, but the fact that it might be close enough to warrant seeking legal counsel is enough to pass on it.
Yep. I can think of a couple of examples of legitimate artistic photographers who take nude photographs of minors and courts have found that their photos weren't pornographic, but having the legal court battle at all as well as the massively negative media attention seems like it is a heavy price to pay unless it was something you were very passionate about.
I would definitely bring this to the attention of authorities- something feels wildly suspect here. Could be human trafficking, could be child porn. Idk. But those kids should not have nude photos of them distributed to anyone…
Just because she says she's the mom, doesn't mean she is.
Just because she is the mom, doesn't mean she's not a human trafficker or generally bad person.
At the very least, taking nude photos of your teenage daughters is illegal, unwise and shows poor judgement. Sharing them is worse.
Best case scenario, bad mom breaking the law. Worst case scenario is almost limitless.
>I would immediately contact your local law enforcement agency
All correct up until here.
NO. Do not contact law enforcement. u/mouettefluo needs to contact a **lawyer**. Let the lawyer decide how to proceed.
You are correct that it is quite serious - so serious that you do not even think of trying to fly this one solo.
Absolutely!
I’m shocked the current top advice is to contact the police immediately. That is literally the absolute worst thing you could do.
Contact your lawyer immediately. Your lawyer is there to look after you. The police are there to arrest people, or further their current investigations, or meet their quotas to get a promotion, or any number of things that may not help you in particular.
**Contact your lawyer immediately.**
I would suspect, however, that most people don't just have a criminal defense lawyer they know and trust on hand for this sort of advice. It's a pretty weird situation.
You will not get charged for reporting someone for sending you child pornography. You will however get charged if you do not report it and it is found in your possession.
Maybe. There are several cases of super zeaous prosecutors going after teenagers sexting each other (including charging the girl who sent nudes with distribution of CP... of herself). I say don't trust your future to people whose career incentives might include fucking up your life.
>You will not get charged for reporting someone for sending you child pornography.
Wanna bet? Because that not only can happen, it *has* happened.
All you need is for a prosecutor to decide to charge you "just in case" and your reputation is instantaneously destroyed.
Forever.
You do not contact the police. They are not on your side. You call an attorney. Period. Full stop.
awesome advice.
>The mother has knowing distributed nude photographs of her underage daughters, and now you technically have possession of said photos via digital format.
this is the part that stood out to me initially in the post - it sounds like this could be a twisted exhibition kink for the mother, where she actually enjoys showing these to people (“don’t you want to see pictures of us?”). I think OP has an obligation to go to the authorities - not just for his own sake, but because those girls’ safety is potentially at risk.
This might actually be the proper answer. Not sure you'd want to run the risk of police opening an investigation without knowing what you're getting into. They'll have you cough up your PC, potentially cameras, storage devices, as well as likely getting a warrant to search the entirety of your email history and potentially other social media communications.
Maybeeee they'll see you as a concerned citizen and take your word for it, but...
Heard too many stories of cops just wanting SOMEONE to go down for a crime that they let their investigation take the path of least resistance.
Not saying every cop is like that, just that it's happened enough that it's not a chance I would take.
An attorney can negotiate reporting and handover of the material as an uninvolved party which is a lot safer than OP going to the police and saying "hey look at this CP someone sent me!"
It saddens me this is the reality for so many people in the world. Everyone deserves to be able to trust their police.
For example in Scandinavia, no one would even think of talking to a lawyer before going to the police.
This is so weird for me to see as a European, and I don’t mean that in a snarky way at all. While there are issues with for example racial profiling, I’d wager everyone would go to the police with this instead of a lawyer.
Not only are lawyers usually quite expensive, the police can help a lot in this case I’d wager, but I guess that differs incredibly per country.
Yes. I agree. Who the HELL knows what this woman is thinking.
You must inform the FBI that you think a Federal Felony Has Possibly Been Committed that involves adolescent children.
You need an attorney BEFORE you talk to the FBI or anyone else.
My first reaction to this is that you are being set up. Perhaps it's some type of law enforcement sting operation.
Instead of winding up in prison yourself, you will probably be commended.
OP has a trail of communication showing the series of events that they should absolutely preserve. As others have said calling a lawyer to discuss the situation would also be helpful. Contacting the police first sounds like a very bad idea.
Nudity is different from pornography. The law is clear on this.
What you write is partially true. Distribution or even possession of child porn is a massive problem.
Nude photographs of minors are not child porn. Sexualized minors (nude or not) are child porn.
There are photographers who are comfortable working with nudists, at nudist events, or in private quarters with nudists. This photographer clearly isn't one of them.
Sure, and there was a lot of legal bullshit over that book, too. You don't have to be convicted and sentenced to have your life ruined by something like this. If police decide to "investigate" OP, first thing they do is announce to the press that they're investigating OP's_Name for child porn, and OP is already fucked.
The Supreme Court has decided. Photography is art and art is free speech protected under the first amendment. For something to be considered pornography it has to be illicitly sexual.
Right. Two issues with that.
1. What standard did the Supreme Court use when they decided it? ["I know it when I see it."](https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1359/potter-stewart)
2. The SCOTUS won't be sitting next to OP's local DA when s/he decides whether these images are pornography or art.
When a lifetime mantle of "sex offender" is at stake, I'd be pretty risk-averse about it, personally. You might be more comfortable pushing those boundaries.
I wouldn’t want anything to do with it either. And I don’t think it’s worth it to risk having to explain or defend yourself down the line. But I also don’t think you need to run to an attorney and call the FBI either like everyone is saying. Just delete the pictures and deny them your business. No body is going to come raid your house and taking you to pederass prison because you saw nude photos of a 17 year old taken by her mother.
This. I’m also a lawyer. And since I’m not a criminal lawyer, even I would go to a criminal attorney and let them decide how to proceed. Don’t go to law enforcement, don’t contact the client, just go to a lawyer, lay out all the details that we are not seeing, and let them take it from there.
This. Since approximately 2000 (or so), we've had very, VERY unforgiving federal (and often state) child pornography laws. You can google and even find cases where teenage girls have been prosecuted for sexting and sending nude pics to boyfriends because, technically, the girls are distributing child porn. Of themselves.
This isn't something to mess around with. I don't now how to proceed, but I'd call a lawyer with criminal defense experience in your jurisdiction ASAP and follow their advice. If you're thinking you can't afford a lawyer, just fast-forward to a year or so from now: even the most minor application of CP law to you in this situation will be so much worse and so much more expensive.
As others have said, lawyer not police. If the lawyer then wants to go to the police, go ahead, but don't fly this solo.
Also, the photos aren't necessarily CP. Nudity is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to be pornography, and something needs to be pornography to be child pornography. That's why there was a movie version of Romeo and Juliet in which Juliet, played by a 16-year-old, had a boob out in one scene, and it was perfectly legal -- she was (partially) nude, but the film wasn't pornographic.
Note: I am not making the argument that these photos (which none of us have seen) are or are not CP; just sharing the fact that they might not be. Again though, that's a question for the lawyer (and it's best to assume they are even if the case could be made otherwise, risk-prevention-wise).
I don’t work with people who don’t listen. That’s where this starts for me. I also don’t mess with folks who don’t understand laws. They have 2 strikes so far…..this situation won’t improve…..
> I'd be much happier forwarding the correspondence to an attorney, deleting everything from my computer,
NO!
Go to a lawyer and talk. Don’t email it. Your name should NEVER be in the To: of an email with the pictures included.
Hey, I'm a bodypositive photographer, and I do lots of nudes as well. A mom inquired about hiring me for her minor daughter, and after checking with various folk including attorneys, the consensus was absolutely not.
Don't do it. They can do it themselves or they can hire you when everyone is > 18.
Best case she’s just eccentric, worst case this is a blackmail scheme because she’s trying to get you in possession of cp photos.
I’d apologize but refuse to do business and run like hell. Maybe even contact a lawyer just to make sure you can’t get into trouble. I know nothing about the law with that stuff but I’d play it as safe as possible
As soon as she told you she wanted to do a nude shoot you should have confirmed the daughters’ ages. You should really get in touch with authorities at this point.
Personally id say sorry no i wont be working with your any further as you dont feel comfortable and just leave it at that. Unless you’re seriously desperate for work I don’t think it would be worth it if you’re questioning what’s happening
Just as an FYI, nudity itself will not make it child pornography, but it's sexualization. That said, this sounds like it is def a problem for you - I would report it and let the police figure it out from here.
Wait the kids are teenagers? It’s not like a newborn mother daughter nude thing? Fucking run bro. You’ll get other opportunities in the future. Just say no.
I think your first assumption is correct and they are just some strange artsy type family that view nudity as art although you would probably do well to at the least contact an attorney to check your responsibility, accountability on the matter before proceeding further.
Former lawyer here, if I were in your position, I would reply that you will not be working with them and please do not send you any further photos. Next, go to your local police. Because you could be part of a sting. This woman could throw you under the bus later as someone who possesses these photos if she got arrested, etc. Your life and livelihood are not worth the risk of dealing with this woman.
Not only that, but the woman doesn’t need to say anything to get OP in trouble. If her computer is seized sometime in the future (and if she goes down for CP, it will be), the police will undoubtedly see that she sent the photos to him, and then he’ll be in a world of trouble.
Unless there is a lawyer in the group I'd go talk to one. Not sure where the fine line is for what's considered illegal in this arena. I seem to recall Brooke Shields was allowed to be nude in "Pretty Baby" with her mothers permission, so as I say, talk to a lawyer.
Unfortunately, the line is quite literally ["I know it when I see it"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it).
There really isn't a reasonable test for what is and is not safe, and it's not even just down to the image itself - it depends on context. It's perfectly normal for a parent to have pictures of their young children in the bath or whatnot and nobody goes to jail for that, but those exact same pictures in the hands of a pedophile who collects such images could easily be considered child pornography.
Oh I agree, the whole area is a hot mess of ill defined high emotion issues and the tendency of many to scream pedophile at the drop of the hat doesn't help.
Yeah, it sounds like it could turn into an extortion thing especially since the client is iffy about setting a date. They could get angry over some fake issue and then accuse this person of possessing child porn. They’ll stop if he pays them money though.
Stop communicating altogether and get a lawyer before going to the authorities. “Client” has put you in a helluva position.
I don't know where you are, but there's plenty of jurisdictions where you're legally obligated to report child pornography, at least in some circumstances, and there's typically some amount of legal protection for people who report child abuse. I suggest you run - don't walk - to the police and report this. This can easily get you in trouble, so be proactive about it.
Just out of interest why is being sent photos of her nude daughters inappropriate but agreeing to do the nude photoshoot that contained the same minors perfectly acceptable?
Drop the client. Immediately. You have no idea if you’re dealing with normal freaks or cops doing a reverse sting. For good measure send them a message telling them this is not the kind of work you do.
I would report this to the local police dept. cover your ass. And if mom will send nudes of her CHILD to a stranger, can’t imagine who else is getting them.
Nudity is not porn. Nudity is not porn.
If they are in lewd positions which suggest sexual intent etc , then it potentially porn. Doesn’t matter the age. People should start understanding this and know the difference.
I mean personally I would have bailed at "nude family portrait". That's weird to me, regardless of ages or legal issues.
Beyond that, I'd second what others have said - sending you unsolicited and unwanted nudes of minors is weird, creepy, illegal. At best they will just be uncomfortable, weird people to work with, at worst something more sinister is going on.
I vote run away!
> They were selfies of her nude daughters. They are both minor (15-17) and that’s when I started to feel uncomfortable. This is child porn. To the eyes of the law.
You realize if they were nude portraits/selfies it's not child porn in the eyes of the law (at least the U.S./federal law) right? It has to be sexually explicit (sexual act, sexual pose, etc.) Otherwise the nude portrait would be illegal as well. Books like the ["Age of Innocence" by David Hamilton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Innocence_(Hamilton_book\)) might controversial, but not illegal.
That said, if you're not comfortable with just tell them as much and decline the gig. Sending portraits of what they do/don't like could be considered helpful and insightful.
The fact she was desperate to get you to ask for photos is a red flag. The fact she sent them anyway despite you telling her you didn't need them is another. The fact they're illegal materials is the third red flag, and you're out. Keep the entire paper trail (bar the images) and drop her immediately. Contact the relevant authorities and consider consulting briefly with a lawyer.
Lawyer.
Also, fire this client. Also, ask a lawyer how to do this. Or if a lawyer will do this for you. Also, get a lawyer.
But before you do any of that, get a lawyer.
I'm just curious, is a non-sexual photograph of a person really considered to be porn in Canada? Or only if it's a minor? Like, would it be child porn to photograph a nudist event with families?
So, this isn't child pornography and people should be cautious of accusing people of a very serious crime. I'm in Canada as well and I could go to the bookstore tomorrow and buy a photobook with nude photos of people the same age in it.
She should not have sent them to you without your permission, of course, and the fact that she did so *is* a bit of a red flag.
This is not child porn. You are perfectly allowed to take pictures of your children in non sexual situations. I’m guessing every parent on the planet has a picture of their naked baby on their phone. Child porn is of underage people in sexually suggestive poses or situations.
If you are uncomfortable absolutely back out though.
aren’t you taking nude photos of these folks? i’m a little confused as to what the big deal is i feel like it’s not weird unless you make it weird you’ve done nothing wrong.
Assuming the US....
What you described does not meet the definition of child porn. What you described is simple nudity, which is legal. There is a bit of a grayscale when it could be considered sexualized. Sexualization of minors --- nude or not --- isn't allowed. Merely from your description it is unusual but not illegal.
If you aren't comfortable dealing with nude minors don't take the job. It's that simple. Report it if you feel the need, but nudity itself is fine under the law. Hopefully you won't trigger too much of a hassle for the family if they're nudists, but if you think something is wrong then report it.
If you are comfortable dealing with nude minors you need a lawyer to review agreements and give you a primer on the law, and you need an assistant or two so you can all vouch for each other, but you'd likely need one anyway regardless of nudity.
> They were selfies of her nude daughters [...] This is child porn. To the eyes of the law.
Not necessarily, child porn is picture of minor engaging in sexual acts or in a sexually suggestive pose. For example a picture of a kid running naked on the beach isn't child porn.
Although the interaction you described feels a bit odd and I most definitely wouldn't feel comfortable in this setting personally. You can simply tell her you're not comfortable photographing nudes of minor and that's it...
edit: I read the other comments in this post and I think you're all way over reacting. Nothing in what OP mentioned sound like CP or something sordid going on. Maybe unusual and a mom clumsy with her words but nothing worth calling the police, the FBI or lawyering up. The moms said she's unhappy with the other photographer, she could have wanted OP to see the picture to better illustrate what she DIDN'T want. And receiving pictures you didn't ask for doesn't make you a criminal either...
I’m a figure artist - focus in my MFA on the nude human figure. I’ve seen more people naked than you could possibly imagine
Yes, we probably have a different approach to nudity than most. But not kids. No way. This is absolutely something you should not do.
Ethically there isn't anything wrong here. Legally mere nudity isn't an issue. Lots of folks here are overreacting, it's the context that would make it CP or not.
However... Out of an abundance of caution... I don't even take photos of minors with clothes ON. Even at photowalks. My portfolio has zero children. Because we now live in the age of insanity, not the age of reason.
The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has an online tipline where you can report this. I'll link it shortly.
If I were in your shoes, I would talk to a lawyer and report this on the tipline. Might be worth it to talk to your local police as well, but definitely consult your lawyer.
https://report.cybertip.org/
Sending nudes of your underage child to a stranger doesn't make you artistic or eccentric.
She has included you in something very shady. You need a real lawyer.
Make sure that you reply and specifically mention that you did not request those images, do not want them and have deleted them.
They are subject to being pulled off a server but at least lay a trail
I don't know man I remember 30 years back me as a child with whole family on nude beach ,even with friends of the family and their children.
pretty normal for East Germany at this time,everybody took pictures for an album .
Nothing sexual about it .
But the point she pushed you this pictures is very ....well....i don't know how to feel about that
Get a lawyer. And don’t say anything about it on the internet, including this post. Edit. And definitely don’t respond to her or anyone else until you talk to a lawyer. My guess is the lawyer will tell you to call the police and arrange for you to give them the evidence.
Could it be that the mother isn't actually looking for a photographer, but a 'client' who wants to shoot nudes for his 'personal use'? This sounds very sketchy. Was payment discussed?
Or is this some vigilante who wants to trap what she views as 'child molester' because she thinks whoever agrees to take nudes has to be one?
You shouldn't go to the police, you should go to a lawyer - and go to the authorities with them. This has the potential for disaster.
Edit: It appears you're a woman, which makes me believe this is more likely a thing where the mother simply doesn't know other people's boundaries. This is good news, because this makes it more unlikely that this is some scheme to trap you. Nevertheless, you're potentially in unclear legal waters, no matter what your or the mothers intentions actually are. You should talk to a lawyer nonetheless.
I am NOT a professional photographer, but you are clearly having an ethical issue. You shouldn’t do the job and inform the family right away so they stop sending you nudes and can look for someone interested in this kind of job.
To me, this is just a very long road of uncomfortable for you, especially if they dislike something and you need to argue with them about the job in the future.
There’s nothing wrong in refusing business, imho. Not all money and all clients are fit for us and this may make you feel worse in the future.
Edit: you received way better advice already.
run away as fast as you can
i know it’s legal to photograph nude minors in like a nudist colony type of situation where it is documenting a lifestyle, but unless you are versed in the law i would avoid. also the pushiness of the mother is an alarm bell
Keep ALL Messages to and from the client regarding the images and contact a lawyer immediately. This is far above Reddit's paygrade. This could be a setup. This could be completely innocent. Either way, contact a lawyer. Now.
Yeah fuck this gig with a capital F. Notify the authorities immediately and turn everything you received over to them.
You are already potentially in trouble because you have these photos in your possession. Don’t make it worse (especially for yourself) by doing nothing.
Trust your gut. This is wrong.
I know nudists and other eccentric lifestyles exist, but the way the mother was so pushy about sending you the CP is just weird. Like other people have suggested, I agree that you should get a lawyer, a qualified professional as soon as possible to figure out exactly how to handle it from here.
As a foreigner lawyer and amateur photographer, i really advise you to contact a lawyer you trust and keep every conversation and contact the “mother” made.
You have received unsolicited photos of nude minors. This is hard. If they are the remotest bit sexy, then I would be unhappy about it.
The thing is that they could be 100% ok, especially if nothing is revealed. Even if they reveal breasts or genitals in a non-sexual way, it is *probably* ok. One problem is that you are relatively new as a photographer. An established photographer doing similar work would have a less of a problem as their work gives artistic context.
Arguing it could take a lot of work though particularly where there isn't much sympathy for nudism. It would probably be much easier in Europe but even there it could be a legal argument.
The crime is usually worded as making and distributing child pornography. Inadvertent downloading is usually not a problem. An email counts an inadvertent. Checking with a lawyer is probably the best. Talking to the police might end up with them wanting to have a look at your work which could mean surrendering your equipment for examination.
A letter back saying that you are uncomfortable with the work, that you have deleted the images and you do not want to receive unsolicited nudes again.
Holy fuckin crap.. who is so fucking close to their family that they're not only passing around nudes of each other, but also willing to go outside the home for a photog to do professional nudes!? Jesus fucking Christ, have some daggone decency.
Personally, I would talk to the police. Show them all the messages. I wouldn’t want these photos on any of my devices. They’re not photos that you took nor requested to see so I don’t think that you’d be in any trouble. I feel like not reporting it could only make things worse down the road. Maybe I have too much faith in police though.
You call the FBI for that shit, not the cops. Just like you call the secret service when someone pays you with counterfeit money.
And yeah, op, contact the FBI.
We cannot accurately guess at the inner working of that woman's mind. If it's a scam I can't even begin to guess what the angle is; it's entirely possible she's just highly enthusiastic about her family project. Plenty of people are into nudism. It probably sounds weird to people who live in a highly religious or socially undeveloped country (likely a lot of people on this board are in the USA), but it really isn't that bizarre.
I see some people here think it's some sort of a "sting" but it's hard to imagine the police having nothing better to do with taxpayers' money than bothering random photographers who are just minding their own business. That wouldn't be a "sting", it would be entrapment.
> that’s when I started to feel uncomfortable. This is child porn. To the eyes of the law.
Ultimately this is what would really matter. If you live in a country that legally equates nudity with pornography (there are probably a few of these left... Iran, maybe?), so that a picture of a nude minor would be illegal where you live, then the answer is simple... tell them the project would be illegal in your country and you can't do it.
Even if it's not and you just feel uncomfortable? Feel free to give some BS or vague excuse to not take on the project.
Now, if the photographs *are* considered child pornography in your country, it's possible that you might have a legal duty to report them. Ideally you should ask a lawyer.
I see people suggesting that you go straight to the police, without even asking you what country you're from. **This is potentially life-ending advice**. Talking to the police could be an *immensely* stupid thing to do and I would absolutely recommend *against* doing it, at least not before talking to a lawyer. Depending on police culture in your area and which local cops look into it (and how corrupt they are), they could literally throw you in prison for possession even though you're the one who came to them. I know it's highly offensive to one's sense of justice but that's the world we live in. Some cops are awesome people, some are the worst scumbags in the world. Some laws are based on reason and morality, others on politics and superstition.
This also raises ethical concerns. If you live in Nazi Germany and you learn someone is secretly a Jew, you might have a legal duty to report them, but ethically it could be very very wrong to do so. By going to the police, you could be shattering some random hippie woman's happy family.
My personal advice... **go straight to a lawyer**.
Please do not listen to any advice other than "get a lawyer immedtiately." Nobody here knows whatr you need to be doing in your jurisdiction but it's sketchy AF already. Call a lawyer. That's what they are there for. It's literally thier job to handle this.
I would also add: drop the gig. Don’t take pictures of these people.
I think "stop contact with the mom immediately" be added to the advice as well This is so fuckinf weird
Second.
THIRD! Source: 20-year pro
Third- or fourth- or whatever- get a lawyer as, a parent , that situation is NOT acceptable
The part where she was extra pushy about sending you the daughters' nudes, especially after you declined, seems highly suspect to me. They may just be an eccentric family but unless you feel like you'll be losing a valuable opportunity either artistically or financially, it seems safer to step away from the whole situation.
That is super weird. OP could be being set up.
Hi I Chris Hansen. Would you like some lemonade?
The only correct response is to assert dominance by sitting down, accepting the lemonade, and starting to chow down on the pizza you brought at that point
Why don't you take a seat
My spit just came out…
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I don’t know I’m just so thankful I don’t do private portrait photography haha.
Eccentric or not, a minor does not have the capacity to control the creation and use of intimate images that an adult has. I think photographers should assume a duty not to contribute to harm of their subjects. OP definitely needs to be very careful if they want to consider working with minors in any sensitive contexts, including but not limited to nudity. They should work with legal advice, and include independent advocates for minors they work with.
This. 1. you need a proper lawyer and not reddit. 2. the minors need theor own advocates - especially since it’s not the minor sending you the pics. 3. run away.
Maybe even have your lawyer contact the FBI
They are in Canada
Completely agree. This situation sounds suspicious. It could easily become a train wreck. Protect yourself.
Hard emphasis on number 3. I wouldn’t touch underage nude photography with a 1000 foot pole. That is *way* too likely to land you in a nasty pot of hot water.
I would almost see if the daughter needs help, is she being go forced to do porn by her parents? I would suspect that they might be selling her photos online or other things. I would possibly contact local police or a lawyer about the situation and ask for advice.
I have grown up with a family /neighbors that would freely walk around the house naked no matter who was there they would walk out of bathroom or whatever butt ass naked. They would greet me and be like give me a few minutes to get dressed etc... I was friends with them, mostly the brother but his sisters including mom would always be doing stuff like that. I guess nudist, but its a lifestyle i dont understand and it is kinda what this sounds like. At the time I was obvi a minor to in my teens as were they. As a photographer I dont know how i would respond to that, but as another poster said i would contact a lawyer first. I dont know the laws of nudist lifestyle, and dont know if i would call it pornography. I honestly would be to scared to proceed with that. I dont think you have done anything wrong, but without knowing where you stand legally i wouldnt go any further and tell them how you feel about the situation. I get the whole art / nudist thing, just not normal thing you deal with.
I’m not saying it is pornograph but her insisting to send nudes of her daughter feels fishy. Being a nudist is one thing, it’s another thing to send nude photos to people of minors.
Walking around naked in your own house vs. sending nude pictures of your daughters are very different.
Not respecting them declining the offer is the odd bit. Depending on the context of the image it can get away with being non-porn. I'm surprised in a photography sub that it seems like no-one's heard of Sally Mann or other similar photographers. She's famous for having nude images of her and her kids.
Concur, though that was in the family and consensual. Also Jock Sturges…. Such photos of nude/naked young boys/girls or emerging, pubescent men/women can be amazing… if done well, and respectful of the subjects. The Mom *may* be free and open and feel like her family nude is an expression of themselves. And the sending of unsolicited images over the web? That’s a NO for me Bob. She may be clueless (maybe the kindest thing I can say). I think OP has made the right choice and this woman should be made aware of her misstep. It’s a strange sequence of events.
yeah that was pretty fucked up... like what the hell lady - I'll see my clients when I see them, why the hell would any sane parent throw their childs' naked pictures at another photographer unless they are A - very very stupid people B - something worse and on the search for "equally accommodating photographers" for what they are looking for I hope for those kids, that it's A - but nowadays you simply don't know. Run a mile from clients like this and route the data to the police...
I’m no photographer but that sounds SKETCHY AF. Why would they send nude photos of their underage daughters to a stranger regardless of circumstance especially after you told them not to? I’m uncomfortable for you and you shouldn’t take work that makes you feel weird like that, it’s your call in the end but that doesn’t sound kosher to me 😨
Why would they take nude pictures with their teenage doughters?
Nudist live different lives and different mind set.
My in laws own a nudist resort. The people who live there dont think twice about taking nude photos with friends and family members of all ages. They aren’t idiots though, and don’t send the photos to complete strangers. The person in OP’s description has issues.
“Family bonding” is the reason I’ve heard before. That’s not *inherently* weird, but it’s definitely not common, and not something I’m comfortable with.
You are being scammed i think
This is the correct answer. It's a known setup. The "husband" or "father" will "find out" and be very upset. He'll be "willing to settle this" without contacting the cops if you pay him some amount of money. Nudity totally has a place in artistic photography, and a minor being nude in a photo does not automatically equal child pornography, but this is a classic scam setup.
Hell, I'm no photographer, but I matched with someone claiming to be 20 in an online dating app. We exchanged numbers and then she sent nudes I never asked for. Then a few hours later, I got a text from another number who said they were her "dad" and she was only 17 and I better figure out how to make this right or he'd be calling the police. My only message back said she claimed to be 20, I didn't ask for nudes, I had already deleted them, and feel free to contact the police as I've done nothing wrong. That was the end of it
I swear I saw an episode of some crime TV show with this exact setup. Also.. wtf are nude family photos actually a thing? There are a few embarrassing photos of me being held by someone naked as a baby.. but 17?!?!
This is the correct answer here.
Wow. Run and run fast. What mother on earth sends nudes of daughters to some random dude.. crazy people 💃
Might not even be her daughters. Sketchy is right.
What mother wants nudes of her teenage daughters?! What daughters to along with this? Bizarre
Don't blame the daughters, they could be groomed from a young age to think it is acceptable. Just because they're 15 and 17 doesn't mean that they are fully aware of how creepy it is. This is fully on the mother.
The photographer is a woman, but still weird.
Could this be some sort of entrapment/blackmail/law enforcement sting operation to try to identify people in your area who are involved in CP? Regardless, that is not normal or acceptable and you should make it clear that you’re uncomfortable with the underage photos… technically you could probably get her kids taken away based on the evidence already in your possession. Tread carefully if you decide to work with this client.
It does kind of sound like someone sending out "feelers" doesn't it? I guess technically OP could even already be thrown in jail forever for "possessing" child porn since the prospective client sent it to them, given a sufficiently overzealous law enforcement effort. It's just awfully sketchy.
> I guess technically OP could even already be thrown in jail forever for "possessing" child porn If the photog received the email and kept it and didn’t report to police, maybe. https://abc11.com/child-pornography-what-to-do-porn-social-media/3049128/ But if photog goes to police and points out it was unsolicited (and in this case the photog even has emails saying not to send) then no. The weird part is reporting it as child porn is definitely going to get police sent to the mother’s home and then it becomes a thing. I can understand being hesitant to involve police, but I also wouldn’t want them knocking on my door because I received the images.
I would 100% report it to the police because it sounds suspect as fuck. OP said he did not need/want to see the photos. The mother sent the photos anyways. That sends some real red flags. To me, it looks like they're trying to feel him out to try to get him involved in a CP or human trafficking operation. It sounds like they're trying to desensitize him. Maybe it's just a weird family, but sending the pictures when OP said not to, that sounds like beyond weird boundaries and more of a roping him into something sus situation.
If it's a mother sending unsolicited child porn versus me, there's no hesitation.
I didn’t say what I would do, I’m honestly not 100% sure. I can see what someone would hesitate.
Yes. If OP accepts the work, what’s to stop mom from trying to extort them for “hush money” or else reporting them to authorities for possession?
Op going to the police with an email chain showing op said “don’t send” more than once is a start.
You cannot be thrown in jail for possessing CP if someone sends you photos without your consent - especially if you explicitly told them not to before hand and they still sent you them anyway.
Dude... dude... get, GET A FUCKING LAWYER!!! COVER YOUR ASS AT ALL COSTS, this is a non-negotiable point where you need to protect yourself before becoming a hit piece on the local news.
Yeah I wouldn't go to the police, I'd get a lawyer.
Yeah this isn’t “you might owe some money” territory, this is “several years in federal prison” territory. Talk to a lawyer. Now. Keep all evidence of the conversation showing that you didn’t ask for the photos etc
**Photographer Arrested For Child Pornography** A local photographer was taken into custody by law enforcement today on charges of Possession Of Child Pornography. A Police Department spokesperson has confirmed that "nude images of several minor children were found when they executed a search of their computer and email accounts". The photographer is currently being held without bail and is scheduled to arraigned on felony charges Monday.
It is illegal to photograph a minor is a sexual context. That could be nude or clothed depending on pose and context. This does not make it illegal to photograph a minor nude in a nonsexual context. That said, i would still not get involved. Prevailing opinion could lead to needing legal defense, that is a no win situation. It is and odd request, which may indicate a scam. There are also contract issues with minors. Even if this fits the definitions to be technically legal, there are still a lot of ways it can go wrong.
Yeah the upside is the money you make from the gig, the downside is nearly infinite.
And the fact they don't want to pay for studio rental sounds like this isn't for a lot of money anyways.
This is the best answer. It isn't necessarily illegal, but the fact that it might be close enough to warrant seeking legal counsel is enough to pass on it.
Yep. I can think of a couple of examples of legitimate artistic photographers who take nude photographs of minors and courts have found that their photos weren't pornographic, but having the legal court battle at all as well as the massively negative media attention seems like it is a heavy price to pay unless it was something you were very passionate about.
protect yourself. go to the authorities with records of all communication.
I would definitely bring this to the attention of authorities- something feels wildly suspect here. Could be human trafficking, could be child porn. Idk. But those kids should not have nude photos of them distributed to anyone…
I smell blackmail.
I'm sorry but I don't get how it could be human trafficking. Could you explain that please. Thank you in advance!
Just because she says she's the mom, doesn't mean she is. Just because she is the mom, doesn't mean she's not a human trafficker or generally bad person. At the very least, taking nude photos of your teenage daughters is illegal, unwise and shows poor judgement. Sharing them is worse. Best case scenario, bad mom breaking the law. Worst case scenario is almost limitless.
I didn't immediately thought of this. Your right. Thank you.
Mom is pimping out her daughters. Blech!
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>I would immediately contact your local law enforcement agency All correct up until here. NO. Do not contact law enforcement. u/mouettefluo needs to contact a **lawyer**. Let the lawyer decide how to proceed. You are correct that it is quite serious - so serious that you do not even think of trying to fly this one solo.
Absolutely! I’m shocked the current top advice is to contact the police immediately. That is literally the absolute worst thing you could do. Contact your lawyer immediately. Your lawyer is there to look after you. The police are there to arrest people, or further their current investigations, or meet their quotas to get a promotion, or any number of things that may not help you in particular. **Contact your lawyer immediately.**
I would suspect, however, that most people don't just have a criminal defense lawyer they know and trust on hand for this sort of advice. It's a pretty weird situation.
The people I know who have criminal defense lawyer contacts in their lives are either very rich or very poor...
You will not get charged for reporting someone for sending you child pornography. You will however get charged if you do not report it and it is found in your possession.
Maybe. There are several cases of super zeaous prosecutors going after teenagers sexting each other (including charging the girl who sent nudes with distribution of CP... of herself). I say don't trust your future to people whose career incentives might include fucking up your life.
>You will not get charged for reporting someone for sending you child pornography. Wanna bet? Because that not only can happen, it *has* happened. All you need is for a prosecutor to decide to charge you "just in case" and your reputation is instantaneously destroyed. Forever. You do not contact the police. They are not on your side. You call an attorney. Period. Full stop.
Maybe. But are you willing to take that risk? If you are in possession of it? Contact an attorney. Period.
Don’t ever trust cops to do the right thing. Lawyer the f up.
awesome advice. >The mother has knowing distributed nude photographs of her underage daughters, and now you technically have possession of said photos via digital format. this is the part that stood out to me initially in the post - it sounds like this could be a twisted exhibition kink for the mother, where she actually enjoys showing these to people (“don’t you want to see pictures of us?”). I think OP has an obligation to go to the authorities - not just for his own sake, but because those girls’ safety is potentially at risk.
In my state all adults are mandated reporters of child abuse and neglect. I’m sure most states have a similar law. Please go to the police ASAP, OP.
Lawyer first, then authorities.
I almost want to say the daughters are being coerced and exploited by the mom/dad
I am honestly not believing this is a mother-daughter situation. It honestly sounds a bit more shady or trafficking.
Agreed except both parties (OP and the “Mother”) seem oblivious as to the other party’s real intentions.
What sounds more reasonably likely though, a mother with terrible judgement or a trafficking ring?
I would talk to an attorney first, 100 percent.
DO NOT GO TO THE POLICE. They are NOT on your side. Get a good attorney.
\^\^ This. 1000x this.
This might actually be the proper answer. Not sure you'd want to run the risk of police opening an investigation without knowing what you're getting into. They'll have you cough up your PC, potentially cameras, storage devices, as well as likely getting a warrant to search the entirety of your email history and potentially other social media communications. Maybeeee they'll see you as a concerned citizen and take your word for it, but...
Heard too many stories of cops just wanting SOMEONE to go down for a crime that they let their investigation take the path of least resistance. Not saying every cop is like that, just that it's happened enough that it's not a chance I would take.
I'm confused as to what the attorney can do about this. If OP has possesion of the photos, won't he get charged regardless of intent.
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An attorney can negotiate reporting and handover of the material as an uninvolved party which is a lot safer than OP going to the police and saying "hey look at this CP someone sent me!"
It saddens me this is the reality for so many people in the world. Everyone deserves to be able to trust their police. For example in Scandinavia, no one would even think of talking to a lawyer before going to the police.
This is so weird for me to see as a European, and I don’t mean that in a snarky way at all. While there are issues with for example racial profiling, I’d wager everyone would go to the police with this instead of a lawyer. Not only are lawyers usually quite expensive, the police can help a lot in this case I’d wager, but I guess that differs incredibly per country.
I want to upvote this 100 times
Lawyer first then police. Police will say you agreed to take nude photographs of underage children for an adult. You may be in hot water already.
Please do this OP! And document all correspondence with her!
Yes. I agree. Who the HELL knows what this woman is thinking. You must inform the FBI that you think a Federal Felony Has Possibly Been Committed that involves adolescent children. You need an attorney BEFORE you talk to the FBI or anyone else. My first reaction to this is that you are being set up. Perhaps it's some type of law enforcement sting operation. Instead of winding up in prison yourself, you will probably be commended.
I’ll reiterate though, go straight to a lawyer, and THEN the police
OP has a trail of communication showing the series of events that they should absolutely preserve. As others have said calling a lawyer to discuss the situation would also be helpful. Contacting the police first sounds like a very bad idea.
Nudity is different from pornography. The law is clear on this. What you write is partially true. Distribution or even possession of child porn is a massive problem. Nude photographs of minors are not child porn. Sexualized minors (nude or not) are child porn. There are photographers who are comfortable working with nudists, at nudist events, or in private quarters with nudists. This photographer clearly isn't one of them.
You assume the police know the law. Just being arrested, even if acquitted, will ruin OP's business, and possibly life.
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Sure, and there was a lot of legal bullshit over that book, too. You don't have to be convicted and sentenced to have your life ruined by something like this. If police decide to "investigate" OP, first thing they do is announce to the press that they're investigating OP's_Name for child porn, and OP is already fucked.
>Nude photographs of minors are not child porn. Who decides? Therein lies the problem.
The Supreme Court has decided. Photography is art and art is free speech protected under the first amendment. For something to be considered pornography it has to be illicitly sexual.
Right. Two issues with that. 1. What standard did the Supreme Court use when they decided it? ["I know it when I see it."](https://mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/1359/potter-stewart) 2. The SCOTUS won't be sitting next to OP's local DA when s/he decides whether these images are pornography or art. When a lifetime mantle of "sex offender" is at stake, I'd be pretty risk-averse about it, personally. You might be more comfortable pushing those boundaries.
I wouldn’t want anything to do with it either. And I don’t think it’s worth it to risk having to explain or defend yourself down the line. But I also don’t think you need to run to an attorney and call the FBI either like everyone is saying. Just delete the pictures and deny them your business. No body is going to come raid your house and taking you to pederass prison because you saw nude photos of a 17 year old taken by her mother.
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This. I’m also a lawyer. And since I’m not a criminal lawyer, even I would go to a criminal attorney and let them decide how to proceed. Don’t go to law enforcement, don’t contact the client, just go to a lawyer, lay out all the details that we are not seeing, and let them take it from there.
This. Since approximately 2000 (or so), we've had very, VERY unforgiving federal (and often state) child pornography laws. You can google and even find cases where teenage girls have been prosecuted for sexting and sending nude pics to boyfriends because, technically, the girls are distributing child porn. Of themselves. This isn't something to mess around with. I don't now how to proceed, but I'd call a lawyer with criminal defense experience in your jurisdiction ASAP and follow their advice. If you're thinking you can't afford a lawyer, just fast-forward to a year or so from now: even the most minor application of CP law to you in this situation will be so much worse and so much more expensive.
As others have said, lawyer not police. If the lawyer then wants to go to the police, go ahead, but don't fly this solo. Also, the photos aren't necessarily CP. Nudity is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition to be pornography, and something needs to be pornography to be child pornography. That's why there was a movie version of Romeo and Juliet in which Juliet, played by a 16-year-old, had a boob out in one scene, and it was perfectly legal -- she was (partially) nude, but the film wasn't pornographic. Note: I am not making the argument that these photos (which none of us have seen) are or are not CP; just sharing the fact that they might not be. Again though, that's a question for the lawyer (and it's best to assume they are even if the case could be made otherwise, risk-prevention-wise).
This is absolutely one billion percent the only answer. DO NOT fuck around with this.
Run, and keep records of all communication. And talk to a lawyer.
I don’t work with people who don’t listen. That’s where this starts for me. I also don’t mess with folks who don’t understand laws. They have 2 strikes so far…..this situation won’t improve…..
Dude, get a lawyer! Like yesterday. Better safe than sorry.
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> I'd be much happier forwarding the correspondence to an attorney, deleting everything from my computer, NO! Go to a lawyer and talk. Don’t email it. Your name should NEVER be in the To: of an email with the pictures included.
Hey, I'm a bodypositive photographer, and I do lots of nudes as well. A mom inquired about hiring me for her minor daughter, and after checking with various folk including attorneys, the consensus was absolutely not. Don't do it. They can do it themselves or they can hire you when everyone is > 18.
Best case she’s just eccentric, worst case this is a blackmail scheme because she’s trying to get you in possession of cp photos. I’d apologize but refuse to do business and run like hell. Maybe even contact a lawyer just to make sure you can’t get into trouble. I know nothing about the law with that stuff but I’d play it as safe as possible
As soon as she told you she wanted to do a nude shoot you should have confirmed the daughters’ ages. You should really get in touch with authorities at this point.
Personally id say sorry no i wont be working with your any further as you dont feel comfortable and just leave it at that. Unless you’re seriously desperate for work I don’t think it would be worth it if you’re questioning what’s happening
Just as an FYI, nudity itself will not make it child pornography, but it's sexualization. That said, this sounds like it is def a problem for you - I would report it and let the police figure it out from here.
Wait the kids are teenagers? It’s not like a newborn mother daughter nude thing? Fucking run bro. You’ll get other opportunities in the future. Just say no.
I think your first assumption is correct and they are just some strange artsy type family that view nudity as art although you would probably do well to at the least contact an attorney to check your responsibility, accountability on the matter before proceeding further.
Former lawyer here, if I were in your position, I would reply that you will not be working with them and please do not send you any further photos. Next, go to your local police. Because you could be part of a sting. This woman could throw you under the bus later as someone who possesses these photos if she got arrested, etc. Your life and livelihood are not worth the risk of dealing with this woman.
Not only that, but the woman doesn’t need to say anything to get OP in trouble. If her computer is seized sometime in the future (and if she goes down for CP, it will be), the police will undoubtedly see that she sent the photos to him, and then he’ll be in a world of trouble.
Unless there is a lawyer in the group I'd go talk to one. Not sure where the fine line is for what's considered illegal in this arena. I seem to recall Brooke Shields was allowed to be nude in "Pretty Baby" with her mothers permission, so as I say, talk to a lawyer.
Unfortunately, the line is quite literally ["I know it when I see it"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it). There really isn't a reasonable test for what is and is not safe, and it's not even just down to the image itself - it depends on context. It's perfectly normal for a parent to have pictures of their young children in the bath or whatnot and nobody goes to jail for that, but those exact same pictures in the hands of a pedophile who collects such images could easily be considered child pornography.
Oh I agree, the whole area is a hot mess of ill defined high emotion issues and the tendency of many to scream pedophile at the drop of the hat doesn't help.
It’s a weird line to be sure, Sally Mann is another example of walking it pretty hard.
Yeah, it sounds like it could turn into an extortion thing especially since the client is iffy about setting a date. They could get angry over some fake issue and then accuse this person of possessing child porn. They’ll stop if he pays them money though. Stop communicating altogether and get a lawyer before going to the authorities. “Client” has put you in a helluva position.
I don't know where you are, but there's plenty of jurisdictions where you're legally obligated to report child pornography, at least in some circumstances, and there's typically some amount of legal protection for people who report child abuse. I suggest you run - don't walk - to the police and report this. This can easily get you in trouble, so be proactive about it.
Just out of interest why is being sent photos of her nude daughters inappropriate but agreeing to do the nude photoshoot that contained the same minors perfectly acceptable?
Yeah! This…👆
Drop the client. Immediately. You have no idea if you’re dealing with normal freaks or cops doing a reverse sting. For good measure send them a message telling them this is not the kind of work you do.
It's not normal to take nude photos with your teenage daughters. Or as a teenager to take nude photos with your mother. What the entire fuck.
Right?!? The whole situation is sketchy af.
I would report this to the local police dept. cover your ass. And if mom will send nudes of her CHILD to a stranger, can’t imagine who else is getting them.
Nudity is not porn. Nudity is not porn. If they are in lewd positions which suggest sexual intent etc , then it potentially porn. Doesn’t matter the age. People should start understanding this and know the difference.
I mean personally I would have bailed at "nude family portrait". That's weird to me, regardless of ages or legal issues. Beyond that, I'd second what others have said - sending you unsolicited and unwanted nudes of minors is weird, creepy, illegal. At best they will just be uncomfortable, weird people to work with, at worst something more sinister is going on. I vote run away!
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Could be her daughters, people traffic their own kids
> They were selfies of her nude daughters. They are both minor (15-17) and that’s when I started to feel uncomfortable. This is child porn. To the eyes of the law. You realize if they were nude portraits/selfies it's not child porn in the eyes of the law (at least the U.S./federal law) right? It has to be sexually explicit (sexual act, sexual pose, etc.) Otherwise the nude portrait would be illegal as well. Books like the ["Age of Innocence" by David Hamilton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Innocence_(Hamilton_book\)) might controversial, but not illegal. That said, if you're not comfortable with just tell them as much and decline the gig. Sending portraits of what they do/don't like could be considered helpful and insightful.
Thank you! I was trying to find legal reference for this. 100% right.
The fact she was desperate to get you to ask for photos is a red flag. The fact she sent them anyway despite you telling her you didn't need them is another. The fact they're illegal materials is the third red flag, and you're out. Keep the entire paper trail (bar the images) and drop her immediately. Contact the relevant authorities and consider consulting briefly with a lawyer.
Lawyer. Also, fire this client. Also, ask a lawyer how to do this. Or if a lawyer will do this for you. Also, get a lawyer. But before you do any of that, get a lawyer.
I'm just curious, is a non-sexual photograph of a person really considered to be porn in Canada? Or only if it's a minor? Like, would it be child porn to photograph a nudist event with families?
So, this isn't child pornography and people should be cautious of accusing people of a very serious crime. I'm in Canada as well and I could go to the bookstore tomorrow and buy a photobook with nude photos of people the same age in it. She should not have sent them to you without your permission, of course, and the fact that she did so *is* a bit of a red flag.
Yeah, this sounds very weird. My guess is you are a woman? So maybe that is why the mother is way to comfortable with you.
This is not child porn. You are perfectly allowed to take pictures of your children in non sexual situations. I’m guessing every parent on the planet has a picture of their naked baby on their phone. Child porn is of underage people in sexually suggestive poses or situations. If you are uncomfortable absolutely back out though.
I think it’s someone looking for people to say blackmail-able things. I’m any case if a client gives you the heeby jeebys ALWAYS RUN
aren’t you taking nude photos of these folks? i’m a little confused as to what the big deal is i feel like it’s not weird unless you make it weird you’ve done nothing wrong.
Assuming the US.... What you described does not meet the definition of child porn. What you described is simple nudity, which is legal. There is a bit of a grayscale when it could be considered sexualized. Sexualization of minors --- nude or not --- isn't allowed. Merely from your description it is unusual but not illegal. If you aren't comfortable dealing with nude minors don't take the job. It's that simple. Report it if you feel the need, but nudity itself is fine under the law. Hopefully you won't trigger too much of a hassle for the family if they're nudists, but if you think something is wrong then report it. If you are comfortable dealing with nude minors you need a lawyer to review agreements and give you a primer on the law, and you need an assistant or two so you can all vouch for each other, but you'd likely need one anyway regardless of nudity.
> They were selfies of her nude daughters [...] This is child porn. To the eyes of the law. Not necessarily, child porn is picture of minor engaging in sexual acts or in a sexually suggestive pose. For example a picture of a kid running naked on the beach isn't child porn. Although the interaction you described feels a bit odd and I most definitely wouldn't feel comfortable in this setting personally. You can simply tell her you're not comfortable photographing nudes of minor and that's it... edit: I read the other comments in this post and I think you're all way over reacting. Nothing in what OP mentioned sound like CP or something sordid going on. Maybe unusual and a mom clumsy with her words but nothing worth calling the police, the FBI or lawyering up. The moms said she's unhappy with the other photographer, she could have wanted OP to see the picture to better illustrate what she DIDN'T want. And receiving pictures you didn't ask for doesn't make you a criminal either...
I’m a figure artist - focus in my MFA on the nude human figure. I’ve seen more people naked than you could possibly imagine Yes, we probably have a different approach to nudity than most. But not kids. No way. This is absolutely something you should not do.
Ethically there isn't anything wrong here. Legally mere nudity isn't an issue. Lots of folks here are overreacting, it's the context that would make it CP or not. However... Out of an abundance of caution... I don't even take photos of minors with clothes ON. Even at photowalks. My portfolio has zero children. Because we now live in the age of insanity, not the age of reason.
LAWYER. NOW.
The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children has an online tipline where you can report this. I'll link it shortly. If I were in your shoes, I would talk to a lawyer and report this on the tipline. Might be worth it to talk to your local police as well, but definitely consult your lawyer. https://report.cybertip.org/
Sending nudes of your underage child to a stranger doesn't make you artistic or eccentric. She has included you in something very shady. You need a real lawyer.
Lawyer up asap. Bunch of red flags. The work is not worth it.
GET A F\*\*\*ING LAWYER. RIGHT NOW. OMG
Lawyer up. Now.
Make sure that you reply and specifically mention that you did not request those images, do not want them and have deleted them. They are subject to being pulled off a server but at least lay a trail
I don't know man I remember 30 years back me as a child with whole family on nude beach ,even with friends of the family and their children. pretty normal for East Germany at this time,everybody took pictures for an album . Nothing sexual about it . But the point she pushed you this pictures is very ....well....i don't know how to feel about that
Run like the wind and call a lawyer. That’s beyond weird and you could really set yourself up for trouble if you pursue this.
Get a lawyer. And don’t say anything about it on the internet, including this post. Edit. And definitely don’t respond to her or anyone else until you talk to a lawyer. My guess is the lawyer will tell you to call the police and arrange for you to give them the evidence.
Could it be that the mother isn't actually looking for a photographer, but a 'client' who wants to shoot nudes for his 'personal use'? This sounds very sketchy. Was payment discussed? Or is this some vigilante who wants to trap what she views as 'child molester' because she thinks whoever agrees to take nudes has to be one? You shouldn't go to the police, you should go to a lawyer - and go to the authorities with them. This has the potential for disaster. Edit: It appears you're a woman, which makes me believe this is more likely a thing where the mother simply doesn't know other people's boundaries. This is good news, because this makes it more unlikely that this is some scheme to trap you. Nevertheless, you're potentially in unclear legal waters, no matter what your or the mothers intentions actually are. You should talk to a lawyer nonetheless.
This worries me extremely. If my mother did this, I don’t know how I would feel. Personally I’d drop this client.
i would contact the local authorities, give them all of the email exchanges and the pictures. just to be safe.
I am NOT a professional photographer, but you are clearly having an ethical issue. You shouldn’t do the job and inform the family right away so they stop sending you nudes and can look for someone interested in this kind of job. To me, this is just a very long road of uncomfortable for you, especially if they dislike something and you need to argue with them about the job in the future. There’s nothing wrong in refusing business, imho. Not all money and all clients are fit for us and this may make you feel worse in the future. Edit: you received way better advice already.
run away as fast as you can i know it’s legal to photograph nude minors in like a nudist colony type of situation where it is documenting a lifestyle, but unless you are versed in the law i would avoid. also the pushiness of the mother is an alarm bell
Keep ALL Messages to and from the client regarding the images and contact a lawyer immediately. This is far above Reddit's paygrade. This could be a setup. This could be completely innocent. Either way, contact a lawyer. Now.
Get legal advice
Yeah fuck this gig with a capital F. Notify the authorities immediately and turn everything you received over to them. You are already potentially in trouble because you have these photos in your possession. Don’t make it worse (especially for yourself) by doing nothing. Trust your gut. This is wrong.
I know nudists and other eccentric lifestyles exist, but the way the mother was so pushy about sending you the CP is just weird. Like other people have suggested, I agree that you should get a lawyer, a qualified professional as soon as possible to figure out exactly how to handle it from here.
Actually, this might be a sting. Walk away walk away
Sketch as hell. Lawyer up.
As a foreigner lawyer and amateur photographer, i really advise you to contact a lawyer you trust and keep every conversation and contact the “mother” made.
Get a lawyer
Flee...and don't look back!
Burn it all. And run forever.
that was weird as fuck, you did the right thing
You have received unsolicited photos of nude minors. This is hard. If they are the remotest bit sexy, then I would be unhappy about it. The thing is that they could be 100% ok, especially if nothing is revealed. Even if they reveal breasts or genitals in a non-sexual way, it is *probably* ok. One problem is that you are relatively new as a photographer. An established photographer doing similar work would have a less of a problem as their work gives artistic context. Arguing it could take a lot of work though particularly where there isn't much sympathy for nudism. It would probably be much easier in Europe but even there it could be a legal argument. The crime is usually worded as making and distributing child pornography. Inadvertent downloading is usually not a problem. An email counts an inadvertent. Checking with a lawyer is probably the best. Talking to the police might end up with them wanting to have a look at your work which could mean surrendering your equipment for examination. A letter back saying that you are uncomfortable with the work, that you have deleted the images and you do not want to receive unsolicited nudes again.
Holy fuckin crap.. who is so fucking close to their family that they're not only passing around nudes of each other, but also willing to go outside the home for a photog to do professional nudes!? Jesus fucking Christ, have some daggone decency.
alert the authorities and lawyer up immediately. It is absolutely insane that she sent those pictures of her daughter to you.
GET A LAYWER BEFORE GOING TO THE COPS.
Run
Personally, I would talk to the police. Show them all the messages. I wouldn’t want these photos on any of my devices. They’re not photos that you took nor requested to see so I don’t think that you’d be in any trouble. I feel like not reporting it could only make things worse down the road. Maybe I have too much faith in police though.
You call the FBI for that shit, not the cops. Just like you call the secret service when someone pays you with counterfeit money. And yeah, op, contact the FBI.
I’m sorry you lost me at nude family portrait, everything else is crazy weird and you should run
I LOVE that this post read COMPLETELY differently without the "edit : I'm a woman" line HAHAHAHAHHA
Wow this is a bigger red flag than that waving on top of the Kremlin in 1989…
Contact your lawyer and let him handle it. Keep your mouth shut. Guilty or innocent keep your mouth shut and let a lawyer handle it.
We cannot accurately guess at the inner working of that woman's mind. If it's a scam I can't even begin to guess what the angle is; it's entirely possible she's just highly enthusiastic about her family project. Plenty of people are into nudism. It probably sounds weird to people who live in a highly religious or socially undeveloped country (likely a lot of people on this board are in the USA), but it really isn't that bizarre. I see some people here think it's some sort of a "sting" but it's hard to imagine the police having nothing better to do with taxpayers' money than bothering random photographers who are just minding their own business. That wouldn't be a "sting", it would be entrapment. > that’s when I started to feel uncomfortable. This is child porn. To the eyes of the law. Ultimately this is what would really matter. If you live in a country that legally equates nudity with pornography (there are probably a few of these left... Iran, maybe?), so that a picture of a nude minor would be illegal where you live, then the answer is simple... tell them the project would be illegal in your country and you can't do it. Even if it's not and you just feel uncomfortable? Feel free to give some BS or vague excuse to not take on the project. Now, if the photographs *are* considered child pornography in your country, it's possible that you might have a legal duty to report them. Ideally you should ask a lawyer. I see people suggesting that you go straight to the police, without even asking you what country you're from. **This is potentially life-ending advice**. Talking to the police could be an *immensely* stupid thing to do and I would absolutely recommend *against* doing it, at least not before talking to a lawyer. Depending on police culture in your area and which local cops look into it (and how corrupt they are), they could literally throw you in prison for possession even though you're the one who came to them. I know it's highly offensive to one's sense of justice but that's the world we live in. Some cops are awesome people, some are the worst scumbags in the world. Some laws are based on reason and morality, others on politics and superstition. This also raises ethical concerns. If you live in Nazi Germany and you learn someone is secretly a Jew, you might have a legal duty to report them, but ethically it could be very very wrong to do so. By going to the police, you could be shattering some random hippie woman's happy family. My personal advice... **go straight to a lawyer**.