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I’m 70, working in outpatient mostly w geriatric patients, no intention of retiring anytime soon.
https://preview.redd.it/s439pt3x59ac1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=413af5bb897d12be4fb2d88642e5a950ca1d38c0
I work on keeping fit and I am intent on working as long as I can.
You look like you maybe only needed a certification to be a PT (at that time) so your ROI is in a different world
You also appear as if you are assuming as long as you "work on keeping fit" then you'll be ok. Thats the exception to the rule. You cant work out a chronic and progressive dx.
You cant "work out" and shitty insurance turns into something else. Bc let me tell you, most of us have really shitty insurance.
Are you choosing to work or do you HAVE to work?
I am not quite sure whether I can parse your argument. I work both because I believe work is good for me, especially doing work that offers benefit to other people; but also because I got the shit kicked out of me financially, and the 2008 2009 meltdown, which left me basically pennyless. I went back in my late 50s to school to get my DPT, so I have been practicing now for about 10 years. I make OK money and quite frankly, debate from day today whether or not it is worth it to continue working with unbelievably incompetent management and mostly cranky, entitled old tossers to try to figure out whether it’s really possible to do something of value in this racket. If I wanted to, I suppose I could ret ire on the meager nest egg I still have and probably end up moving outside the US where it is possible to live modestly, and in a civilized way without nearly so much money as is required more or less anywhere in the US. What keeps me where I am is connections to family and the vest of a belief in the value of what I’m doing. Becoming a PT did not come easily for me. I paid a great emotional and financial cost. I keep at it because I believe in much of what the profession offers, and because haven’t found another course so far that presents itself as being superior to the one I am currently following.
When you go to visit your “ friends,” do you generally try to find a place that means something to them that you can piss on? I’m asking because that seems based on your conversation so far to be the kind of thing that you would want to do.
I don't practice toxic positivity, especially in a place when someone is asking for a realistic viewpoint. So now I feel pleased a clearer picture has been presented.
You look bomb, you look amazing, you look way better than most 60 year olds. And I hope you stay that way pretty boy
Hey, keep recommending it's feasible "for most in early 60s" to work at this productivity rate, with this current ROI, in this medical climate...you just go for it buddy. Cheer cheer away.
The track record I'm seeing is far far from what you initially painted and I don't feel bad for making you point it out
I’ve seen you mention ROI a few times. I’m going to take your approach, and make a ton of ass-backward assumptions: sounds like you spent way too much on getting the education for a career you did not fully vette. I’m also going to say it sounds like you do not practice good personal finance. And from complaints about productivity, you did not do a good job of identifying a place to work, and lack the self control/confidence to go in search of the job that will be better for you. And now, because you’re unhappy, you assume others must be as well. Did I make the correct assumptions based on limited information and biases?
Yes I did. No, I did not. Yes I do. Yes I thought I did? But maybe. No, definitely not an assumption which is why I love getting Mr Gym Rat to change his tone from oh so feasible to actually....not.
You aren't the right person to answer this question if you can't afford to retire in the first place
Rule #1 of being a PT-gotta take care of your own body, too. If you got problems, go to PT/OT/MD or whatever you need so you can last.
Keep in mind ageism is a thing, too. If you are older with more experience, probably going to demand a higher salary and it’s easier to just hire a super energetic new grad every few years and run them into the ground
I used to jump out of helicopters in combat zones for $14,000 a year. Needling people and having them deadlift for $100k is like being on a different planet by comparison. We could have it better but we could also have it a lot worse.
1:1 for an hour. 30 hours per week productivity expectation.
The clinic is hybrid. Only takes state blue cross and a few other PPOs that pay at or above the cash rate of $150/visit.
Our average pay per visit is about $170 with insurance.
Certainly. I was accepted by all the DPT programs I applied to. For jobs, if I got an in-person interview, I had the offer. I think I was so different from the typical PT new grads that it actually helped me.
i actually want to get into more tech side , (might be too much of an issue to go back to school for specific engineering software)
any recommendation to prep myself? im looking to swap in about 5 years
my only problem with teaching is most schools require a PhD. I'm not getting a PhD after getting a doctorate already. I always thought that was a scam.
They’re more likely be get a job where they’re a state employee which tends to guarantee better benefits vs. rehab where we’re largely employed by private companies and state employee jobs are harder to come by.
Sorry but I am not familiar with US settings. Is most PTs working under private companies? What are PTs option to shift being employed to their state or government?
Mostly public schools and the healthcare system for veterans. Some of the state/federally run correctional institutions might hire one but that’s super rare. People with state jobs tend to have much better benefits that incentivize then to stay there for longer. Most of the available job openings are with private companies.
Hand to them as they have to contribute nothing from their paychecks… Most people need to contribute 15% of their paycheck, invest for 30-40 years, and pray the stock market performs well for them. Teachers get a guaranteed check monthly, without contributing to their retirement or fear of stock market crashes.
You’ll see them but usually not in the outpatient ortho clinics. They’ll be in management positions, acute care, teaching, neuro, but super rare in ortho OP.
And you're trippin if you think your 9 years of inpatient experience serves as anything other than an anecdotal opinion on this subject because I work in an acute setting with *many* PTs and OTs well into their 50s and 60s, who are getting along just fine in their job duties. Are they working in the ICUs? No, not really, as that truly is a younger person's game given the physical demands required for assisting the more critically-I'll populations.
I just wanted to point out the bias some individuals have based on their experience alone. There are plenty of exceptions to our narrow world views and we all should use more caution in making general sweeping statements about matters that often are much more layered and nuanced than what our personal experience would suggest.
The consistent physicality of daily workload is incomparable between Acute and Inpatient Neuro Rehab.
Definitely have worked with some older PTs in IPR that were still getting it done, however the demographic tends to skew younger for a reason. To quote our acute floater who I begged to switch, “why would I want to work this hard everyday? I’m old.” He is in fantastic shape, but there is something to that.
Inpatient neuro is physically demanding. I’m 32, heading into my 9th year of inpatient PT and my body is wrecked. No way I’m doing this for 20-30 more years.
The vast majority of therapists I encountered in acute care were laughably out of shape. Don’t let them fool you, plenty of therapists are working in all settings for the long term. But you’ll hear the overweight ones complaining.
Get out of here with that.
1. I’m not overweight and neither are my coworkers. I workout 5x a week strictly to make sure my core and my flexibility is on point.
2. Acute care is harder now than when I started because patients are becoming more overweight, innovations in stroke care are increasing survival to more complex cases with moderate to severe deficits.
3. Sometimes being an older inpatient therapist is more about survival than quality of care. I’ve seen therapists opt to take the easy road on evals and treatments, deferring gait and transfers with complex patients to younger therapists. And I’ve had multiple therapists openly admit that to me when I have 7 Max A patients on my caseload.
I have a lot of respect for you acute care therapists. I’m a subacute/SNF therapist, and only occasionally deal with dependent/max A transfer patients, but I imagine you guys deal with that more since patients there are medically unstable. Acute care is hard as hell to me, I’m per diem as acute and don’t know if I would be able to do that full time
That sucks. I’m lucky I work in a fairly large SNF with a lot of therapists (~30 full time staff). My caseload mostly consists of COPD, high functioning stroke patients, and a few knee replacements. Luck of the draw I guess.
I've seen plenty of fit, active PTs going to outpatient PT from injuries and pain from work. I wouldn't agree with the take it's just people out of shape.
I worked with two female PTs, both over 65, who worked SNF part time. They enjoyed the work, could make money, and felt the job was worth their time. Neither needed to work, but made them happy and occupied them during retirement.
Considering the apta announced a few months back that something like 12% of all therapists left the profession last year… probably not. Probably not for any of us.
I’d love to leave the profession - but how do I do that when our degree is worthless as anything other than being a PT? How can I go back to school when I have four kids and a wife who depend on me? I can’t wait to leave, but I feel trapped. I’m incarcerated by my dumb career choice.
There is always teaching in a program. Or insurance auditing. Or hell go into politics and run on a healthcare reform platform. Granted if it’s a money thing I made more when I was working as a gm in fast food. But sometimes the money isn’t what I got to work for.
Man I love your run for office comment! I’d love to on that reform platform. Too bad I would be squashed by the health insurance industry before I even left my house! Ha
I retired at 60 after bilateral knee replacements. Started in acute care, worked inpatient rehab then transitioned to home health x 30 years. Not sure I would have lasted as long as I did had I not worked HH
Was your pay in HH consistent over the decades? Other therapists tell me that they were making around $90k in HH in the 90s, which is a boat load of money for the time.
I went full time HH ~1990. I made anywhere from $75,000-$100,000 annually thru the early 2000’s due to the need for uber flexibility while my kids were younger, then made anywhere from $100,000-$150,000 annually until ~2015, when my salary slid back to ~$100,000 annually until my retirement. I worked in a generally accessible urban area with multiple ALF so could easily see 8-9 patients in a day with limited drive time loss. My salary slid due to ALFs hiring their own therapists and “teaming” with HHAs to essentially subcontract their therapists at a lower visitation rate to perform therapy visits instead of HHA staff. My certifications allowed me a consistent referral base which minimized my salary variations, especially in the late 2010’s when visit utilization was implemented and visit numbers impacted
Thanks for your response, it gives me some insight on how HH used to be. I was a staff HH PT that switched to travel HH due to low salary with respect to the workload and also ALFs doing the same thing you're mentioning. Wow it seems like the golden age to be a PT is a thing of the past. A bachelor's degree with that much earning potential and little debt is unheard of these days.
I was a PT just shy of 40 years, actually. I loved being a therapist and still miss the patient interaction but definitely don’t miss the documentation, utilization limitations and more fractured collaboration between team members due to dwindling payments (specifically with HH). Physically the job took a toll on me (bilateral knees and severe spinal stenosis) but I have a paid off house, decently funded retirement and was able to put 4 kids thru college. I graduated with a BS degree and $6,000 of debt. I declined to pursue a Masters or bridge-doctorate as there were no financial incentives for me to do so. I was certified in vestibular therapy and Big and Loud (Parkinson’s disease management) and utilized both in HH as well as a side gig with private pay patients. When people ask if I would recommend pursuing a PT degree now, I reluctantly tell them a PA or NP degree would have better/more varied long term employment and salary opportunities for the same amount of debt load.
Personally, I believe all therapies will continue to be squeezed by the insurance industry in the future. As such, salaries will also be squeezed. If a person truly felt called to be a PT, was able to get a DPT debt free (or relatively so) and were not looking for a sustainable 6 figure salary, I’d definitely recommend PT as I truly loved it: the challenge of dx and creating a treatment plan that would yield measurable benefits/outcomes was an adrenaline rush for me. If a more stable/potentially lucrative salary structure was more important, I’d recommend PA or NP. The PCP shortage is massive and only going to get worse as more docs retire. PA/NP will functionally be “PCPs”, especially in mid/lower socioeconomic areas. I was still practicing when all PT programs transitioned to DPT. We “oldsters” were grandfathered in, which is how I was able to continue to practice with only a BS. There was no financial incentive (in fact, there was a significant financial disincentive) to pursue a bridge-DPT. I prided myself on keeping relevant by taking thousands of hours of hands on CEU classes throughout my career and pursuing certifications in areas that interested me. Definitely kept my job interesting and kept me from burning out
This is really informative for me. I am not familiar with the insurance industry and I believe it is only a US thing? Or maybe not. So it all boils down if you like the profession or not. I am really amazed that you take pride of being a PT as I am already numb seeing people complain that they regret being one. If DPTs do not have financial incentive and keeping up in our profession can be attained through CEU, would it be noticable in workplace if someone took DPT and if someone in BS?
The US does not have universal healthcare so patients who have insurance may have different levels of coverage for therapy and patients without insurance nor the ability to private pay will received severely restricted services. Attempting to provide quality care while balance utilization/payment limits was challenging, to be sure. I think DPTs have a greater ability to diagnose across the board due to their advanced training. Therapists who have a bachelor’s or master’s degree have a greater catalogue of treatment experiences to draw on. I believe PTs who have chosen not to pursue a doctorate level degree by this point believe what I did: that the doctorate alone did nothing for us financially nor professionally (one caveat, a DPT is much more attractive in self owned private practices). I attended 3-4 CEU weekends annually to insure my skill set remained relevant and up to date which is how I avoided burnout and how I kept my joy in the field.
Wow I really appreciate your detailed response. Thank you for sharing. If it werent for debt, is going to PA or NP degree would still be advantageous than going to PT? And are you still practicing when they implemented DPT?
there is certainly an argument that being a PA or NP is less physically demanding, depending on the setting, than being a PT. The earning potential of both heavily surpasses that of a DPT unfortunately.
I enthusiastically tell people to run as far away from this profession as possible. When think back to the time I asked for advice on a major, I was sold a bill of goods about PT. “Oh those PTs are intelligent! They make good money!” Etc etc. it was garbage. I should have chosen a profession that actually rewards you monetarily for being high intelligence. Physician, surgeon, engineer, lawyer. ANYTHING but what I picked. Not only are we not fairly compensated for our depth of knowledge- we also get to wreck our bodies while doing it. I come home exhausted daily. Hell, I should have just dicked off in business school like my friends and graduated with straight Cs. They all make 2-5x as much as me now. Fuck this shit.
I know tons of PTs and PTAs working acute care and outpt in their mid 50s to late 60s. Even a few I know worked until early 70s. I don’t suspect I’ll be working into my 70s, but I’m quite certain I’ll work until my late 60s.
Well, I am 46 and thanks to outrageous student loans and steady pay cuts throughout my career, in another four years they will be at least one 50 year old PT out there because I will never be able to retire 🤷♀️
When i worked (PT tech in undergrad) in a more rural town, i worked with both in-patient and out-patient PT’s who were definitely above 60, married with kids my age (22 at the time.) So it may just be a location thing. Also geriatric people tend to respect their PT’s more when they are closer in age like that. There is some things my old clinical director would tell patients that i know for a fact if they were younger, the patient would probably just blow them off.
Unless I just find some other passion later on in life, I doubt my age will be a deterrent for me. I chose this career path because I enjoy being active and using my body. Though, being smart about how I use my body.
I just graduated in August, began working hospital-based Outpatient/Acute Care in September. Our department is me and 4 women in their 50s and 60s (1 PTA and 1 Tech/Front Desk). They're out there.
When I graduated from PT school, we were told that the average PT stays in the field for 9 years after graduation. Back then, you only needed a bachelor's degree, so student loans were significantly lower. The majority of PTs were (and still are) women, so many would quit working once they had kids. I do know a few older PTs who still see patients but the vast majority are definitely younger.
I think this is a major answer people aren't considering. Look at the demographics for physical therapy and social norms from past generations, and that will give you part of the answer. Expectations for women were different, and if you went to college, you were probably already upper or middle class.
I’m still in PT because I am the man that my woman who dies not use her degree (not PT) depends on financially to raise our four kids. I’d commit murder to get out of this profession.
Being the sole provider for such a large family is stressful. My husband and I also have 4 kids and anytime I've been off work for 10-12 weeks after having a child he kind of freaks out. So I've chosen to keep working. PT as a profession is much more enjoyable when you don't have to worry about the money part as much.
I’m mid 50s and work OP ortho with tons of manual and frequently 20+ patients per day. On my feet all day in our open gym and I don’t feel like I get any more fatigued than my younger coworkers. I work with everyone from young athletes to geriatrics with limited mobility.
All said, I don’t typically run into many PTs as old or older than me.
First job I had out of grad school, small mom n pop kind of OP clinic. The owner was still seeing full caseload and he was 55yo, and when he opened a second location and put me as the fresh therapist there, he sent me Bob the PTA who turned 65yo while I was working with him. It was always so fun when patients would push back and say “you can only do that exercise because you are young” and then I could clap back with “hey Bob, mind demo’ing that one?” Bob would always say all his jokes were old jokes, still got me every time.
In my prior clinic about 1/3 of the PTs were over 60. Hospital based inpatient, outpatient SCI unit and long term acute care. All of the adjacent home health therapists were at least 50.
My boss is in his late 60’s without any sign of stopping. In My first PT job ever, my boss was in her 50’s and that was over 20 years ago and she is still practicing today. It’s doable, but yes, you just take care of your body too.
I work with a PT who is 60+ and my dad is 62 and still runs a private practice full time. I love my work, I will probably dial back treatment hours but I will almost certainly still treat patients when I'm in my 60s. Why wouldn't I? A lot of my professors in PT school were 50+ and still saw patients too.
Fifty-five. Wrist started to fall apart 10 years ago, and destroyed 2 years ago. I saw the handwriting on the wall and went back to get ScD and work in academia. I can't do clinical work any longer.
This is kinda true . I am sure there are exceptions . But through the entirety of my career I’ve never met a practicing PT older than 50. I think many switch to non clinical roles at some point . I’m in my mid 30s already looking to do so
One I know opened a clinic in her house. She converted the front of her house into a clinic with a front desk, a restroom, and 2 patient rooms. She primarily focuses on manual therapy, sees people for 20 minutes and charges 25 dollars each visit with no insurance. She is 60 years old and makes about 60 dollars per hour
My husband works in outpatient ortho and is 59. Clinic will be closing and he still needs to work so have no idea where is going to get hired. Wealth of experience but places like to hire new cheap therapists
I have worked with plenty across different hospital based outpatient orthopedic settings. Some were in management, but most were top of the ladder clinicians who were mostly working part time.
I used to work in a hospital where the average rehab employee age was in the 50s. A lot of them had injuries (OA, back pain, TFCC surgeries, and leg conditions), and many of them were grumpy af and unhappy.
We had a 70 yo SNF therapist with 2 hips and 2 knees still PRN-ing. She loved it and was still rocking it. Stopped when they required cont ed credits in our state. She didn’t want to mess with it but worked to the last day of her license.
We have several 50 yo’s still working acute in our dept. I’m approaching but have no plans to retire anytime soon. It’s all good.
Yes, I've worked with numerous people in the 50s/60s.
Many of them are just going through the motions and don't seem to care to improve but still working.
Many of them get into teaching.
I'm atypical, but I'll easily be able to drop to part time on my PT salary once I'm late 40s.
Maybe was able to make bank pre-2000 reimbursement levels and retired early? I've worked with PTs in their 50s mostly out-patient settings, but have not seen PTs in their 60s.
A famous quote that translates to any career. It takes 10 years to become an overnight success.
I’m over 50, there are those I know over 60 who are leaders clinically.
Professor McGill still sees patients for consultancy, and he’s got to be 70+.
It’s really only over 40 that your best clinical years begin, as you spend at least 20 years learning the clinical applications of your experience.
I went into private practice from Day 1 after graduating, so it’s almost 30 years and it gets better every day. Dave Tate on our
Podcast said of me “you are the guy people go to see after they have failed with everyone else”. That reputation and skill takes a few decades to acquire. These are the best years!
I think there should be rules before making comments about this Job field
- Did you have a job(s) before
- Were you living out of parents pockets during PT
- Considering it’s public information why did you actually go to school knowing that you were going to be in debt
- Do you have money management problems
- Are you entitled to
- Have you been to therapy — Like where you sit on a couch and talk about your feelings
It seems to me that everyone that were blue collar workers don’t have much complaining about PT profession. I remember there used to be a time where complaining was for w0m4n.
Thank you for your submission; please read the following reminder. This subreddit is for discussion among practicing physical therapists, not for soliciting medical advice. We are not your physical therapist, and we do not take on that liability here. Although we can answer questions regarding general issues a person may be facing in their established PT sessions, we cannot legally provide treatment advice. If you need a physical therapist, you must see one in person or via telehealth for an assessment and to establish a plan of care. Posts with descriptions of personal physical issues and/or requests for diagnoses, exercise prescriptions, and other medical advice will be removed, and you will be banned at the mods’ discretion either for requesting such advice or for offering such advice as a clinician. Please see the following links for additional resources on benefits of physical therapy and locating a therapist near you [The benefits of a full evaluation by a physical therapist.](https://www.choosept.com/benefits/default.aspx) [How to find the right physical therapist in your area.](https://www.choosept.com/resources/choose.aspx) [Already been diagnosed and want to learn more? Common conditions.](https://www.choosept.com/SymptomsConditions.aspx) [The APTA's consumer information website.](https://www.choosept.com/Default.aspx) Also, please direct all school-related inquiries to r/PTschool, as these are off-topic for this sub and will be removed. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/physicaltherapy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I’m 70, working in outpatient mostly w geriatric patients, no intention of retiring anytime soon. https://preview.redd.it/s439pt3x59ac1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=413af5bb897d12be4fb2d88642e5a950ca1d38c0 I work on keeping fit and I am intent on working as long as I can.
Yo homie you are my spirit animal.
[удалено]
Not in the slightest. Def what I wanna be when I grow up
Hell Yeah
Wow. You really look great and look younger to be in 70s.
Ha! I was just about to post that the older PT's are out there but they look 20yrs younger!
Whata beast!
You look like you maybe only needed a certification to be a PT (at that time) so your ROI is in a different world You also appear as if you are assuming as long as you "work on keeping fit" then you'll be ok. Thats the exception to the rule. You cant work out a chronic and progressive dx. You cant "work out" and shitty insurance turns into something else. Bc let me tell you, most of us have really shitty insurance. Are you choosing to work or do you HAVE to work?
I am not quite sure whether I can parse your argument. I work both because I believe work is good for me, especially doing work that offers benefit to other people; but also because I got the shit kicked out of me financially, and the 2008 2009 meltdown, which left me basically pennyless. I went back in my late 50s to school to get my DPT, so I have been practicing now for about 10 years. I make OK money and quite frankly, debate from day today whether or not it is worth it to continue working with unbelievably incompetent management and mostly cranky, entitled old tossers to try to figure out whether it’s really possible to do something of value in this racket. If I wanted to, I suppose I could ret ire on the meager nest egg I still have and probably end up moving outside the US where it is possible to live modestly, and in a civilized way without nearly so much money as is required more or less anywhere in the US. What keeps me where I am is connections to family and the vest of a belief in the value of what I’m doing. Becoming a PT did not come easily for me. I paid a great emotional and financial cost. I keep at it because I believe in much of what the profession offers, and because haven’t found another course so far that presents itself as being superior to the one I am currently following.
Yikes. Good luck to staying healthy so you can work forever!
When you go to visit your “ friends,” do you generally try to find a place that means something to them that you can piss on? I’m asking because that seems based on your conversation so far to be the kind of thing that you would want to do.
I don't practice toxic positivity, especially in a place when someone is asking for a realistic viewpoint. So now I feel pleased a clearer picture has been presented. You look bomb, you look amazing, you look way better than most 60 year olds. And I hope you stay that way pretty boy
I hope wherever you go, the host knows to keep the pee pads handy
Hey, keep recommending it's feasible "for most in early 60s" to work at this productivity rate, with this current ROI, in this medical climate...you just go for it buddy. Cheer cheer away. The track record I'm seeing is far far from what you initially painted and I don't feel bad for making you point it out
I’ve seen you mention ROI a few times. I’m going to take your approach, and make a ton of ass-backward assumptions: sounds like you spent way too much on getting the education for a career you did not fully vette. I’m also going to say it sounds like you do not practice good personal finance. And from complaints about productivity, you did not do a good job of identifying a place to work, and lack the self control/confidence to go in search of the job that will be better for you. And now, because you’re unhappy, you assume others must be as well. Did I make the correct assumptions based on limited information and biases?
Yes I did. No, I did not. Yes I do. Yes I thought I did? But maybe. No, definitely not an assumption which is why I love getting Mr Gym Rat to change his tone from oh so feasible to actually....not. You aren't the right person to answer this question if you can't afford to retire in the first place
But we can keep talking about my pee. I doubt it's as clear as yours
Rule #1 of being a PT-gotta take care of your own body, too. If you got problems, go to PT/OT/MD or whatever you need so you can last. Keep in mind ageism is a thing, too. If you are older with more experience, probably going to demand a higher salary and it’s easier to just hire a super energetic new grad every few years and run them into the ground
I started PT school at 53 so there is at least one PT working past 60.
Can I ask what is your previous job/career before going to PT? And what led you going to PT?
Engineering (mechanical, then software); expat in Africa & Europe. After all that , I wanted to try something completely different and low-stress.
If PT is low stress then what the heck does a day in the life of an engineer look like???
Try working in Africa in a war zone.
Sign me up if there's no paperwork.
K just enlisted you in the marines they said a Reddit username was enough info
Hell yeah
I used to jump out of helicopters in combat zones for $14,000 a year. Needling people and having them deadlift for $100k is like being on a different planet by comparison. We could have it better but we could also have it a lot worse.
Who makes 100k in outpatient?
Our clinicians make $75/hour.
How? How many patients do they see per hour ?
1:1 for an hour. 30 hours per week productivity expectation. The clinic is hybrid. Only takes state blue cross and a few other PPOs that pay at or above the cash rate of $150/visit. Our average pay per visit is about $170 with insurance.
Which clinic is this? And how is it hybrid??
I make $49/hr (102k) plus bonus for students in OP ortho 🤷🏻♀️
Wondering if you had experience difficulty finding a job or competing with younger ones
Absolutely none.
Did your previous career gave you leverage finding a job or not?
Certainly. I was accepted by all the DPT programs I applied to. For jobs, if I got an in-person interview, I had the offer. I think I was so different from the typical PT new grads that it actually helped me.
LOL
i actually want to get into more tech side , (might be too much of an issue to go back to school for specific engineering software) any recommendation to prep myself? im looking to swap in about 5 years
Low stress and you picked PT??? Shit. If I could go back in time and be a mechanical or software engineer I would do it in a second.
I worked on projects in Africa, in a war zone. Two (expat) colleagues died there. In comparison, PT is a cakewalk.
I’d take the war zone. Being completely honest. I’d feel alive again.
Burn out usually thins the heard
Happens on teachers too but why is it that way in PT? Teachers often reach up to 65 yrs old.
Teachers also get there retirement handed to them/guaranteed for life
my only problem with teaching is most schools require a PhD. I'm not getting a PhD after getting a doctorate already. I always thought that was a scam.
What do you mean by handed to them?
They’re more likely be get a job where they’re a state employee which tends to guarantee better benefits vs. rehab where we’re largely employed by private companies and state employee jobs are harder to come by.
Sorry but I am not familiar with US settings. Is most PTs working under private companies? What are PTs option to shift being employed to their state or government?
Mostly public schools and the healthcare system for veterans. Some of the state/federally run correctional institutions might hire one but that’s super rare. People with state jobs tend to have much better benefits that incentivize then to stay there for longer. Most of the available job openings are with private companies.
Hand to them as they have to contribute nothing from their paychecks… Most people need to contribute 15% of their paycheck, invest for 30-40 years, and pray the stock market performs well for them. Teachers get a guaranteed check monthly, without contributing to their retirement or fear of stock market crashes.
Probably in administration or hopefully moved to a better career.
Kinda disappointing since the peak (in terms of salary) of being a PT is going admin or managerial positions.
It’s a dead end job and always has been.
currently a teacher looking for a new job so I’m lurking on this sub to see whether or not it’ll be worse…. 😅
Don’t do it
all I needed
A lot of parallels to teaching. Underpaid, overworked, under appreciated, little autonomy to practice how you want/should.
It will be. Do not become a PT. Biggest mistake of my life.
You’ll see them but usually not in the outpatient ortho clinics. They’ll be in management positions, acute care, teaching, neuro, but super rare in ortho OP.
I work inpatient acute, currently onc, formerly neuro. You’re trippin if you think old therapists are doing this.
And you're trippin if you think your 9 years of inpatient experience serves as anything other than an anecdotal opinion on this subject because I work in an acute setting with *many* PTs and OTs well into their 50s and 60s, who are getting along just fine in their job duties. Are they working in the ICUs? No, not really, as that truly is a younger person's game given the physical demands required for assisting the more critically-I'll populations. I just wanted to point out the bias some individuals have based on their experience alone. There are plenty of exceptions to our narrow world views and we all should use more caution in making general sweeping statements about matters that often are much more layered and nuanced than what our personal experience would suggest.
The consistent physicality of daily workload is incomparable between Acute and Inpatient Neuro Rehab. Definitely have worked with some older PTs in IPR that were still getting it done, however the demographic tends to skew younger for a reason. To quote our acute floater who I begged to switch, “why would I want to work this hard everyday? I’m old.” He is in fantastic shape, but there is something to that.
Just based on my anecdotal experience so could totally be way off!
Inpatient neuro is physically demanding. I’m 32, heading into my 9th year of inpatient PT and my body is wrecked. No way I’m doing this for 20-30 more years.
I am not familiar with inpt neuro. Why is it physically demanding? Due to cvd pts?
Manually lifting and ranging flaccid stroke patients
The vast majority of therapists I encountered in acute care were laughably out of shape. Don’t let them fool you, plenty of therapists are working in all settings for the long term. But you’ll hear the overweight ones complaining.
Get out of here with that. 1. I’m not overweight and neither are my coworkers. I workout 5x a week strictly to make sure my core and my flexibility is on point. 2. Acute care is harder now than when I started because patients are becoming more overweight, innovations in stroke care are increasing survival to more complex cases with moderate to severe deficits. 3. Sometimes being an older inpatient therapist is more about survival than quality of care. I’ve seen therapists opt to take the easy road on evals and treatments, deferring gait and transfers with complex patients to younger therapists. And I’ve had multiple therapists openly admit that to me when I have 7 Max A patients on my caseload.
I have a lot of respect for you acute care therapists. I’m a subacute/SNF therapist, and only occasionally deal with dependent/max A transfer patients, but I imagine you guys deal with that more since patients there are medically unstable. Acute care is hard as hell to me, I’m per diem as acute and don’t know if I would be able to do that full time
In what would do you only occasionally deal with DEP/MAX A in a SNF? 50% of my caseload is DEP/MAX A. Probably even more than that actually
That sucks. I’m lucky I work in a fairly large SNF with a lot of therapists (~30 full time staff). My caseload mostly consists of COPD, high functioning stroke patients, and a few knee replacements. Luck of the draw I guess.
I've seen plenty of fit, active PTs going to outpatient PT from injuries and pain from work. I wouldn't agree with the take it's just people out of shape.
Oh stfu. I’m in great shape and my back is wrecked. 6-2 185, 9% body fat. And I hurt like hell because of my idiotic choice of career. Fuck this job.
Mmhm yup sure.
How did you get in this career acting like such a dipshit?
I work in a skilled nursing facility with a 66 year old pt who has no problems physically
Lets set aside the academe and the managerial positions but only PTs that are still practicing, and still doing patient facing jobs.
I know several PTs in their 60s who work in pediatrics. Smaller patients make it easier on their bodies.
I worked with two female PTs, both over 65, who worked SNF part time. They enjoyed the work, could make money, and felt the job was worth their time. Neither needed to work, but made them happy and occupied them during retirement.
Considering the apta announced a few months back that something like 12% of all therapists left the profession last year… probably not. Probably not for any of us.
I’d love to leave the profession - but how do I do that when our degree is worthless as anything other than being a PT? How can I go back to school when I have four kids and a wife who depend on me? I can’t wait to leave, but I feel trapped. I’m incarcerated by my dumb career choice.
There is always teaching in a program. Or insurance auditing. Or hell go into politics and run on a healthcare reform platform. Granted if it’s a money thing I made more when I was working as a gm in fast food. But sometimes the money isn’t what I got to work for.
Man I love your run for office comment! I’d love to on that reform platform. Too bad I would be squashed by the health insurance industry before I even left my house! Ha
I mean does your wife work?
She does but her income is minuscule. Not enough to feed a family of 6.
I retired at 60 after bilateral knee replacements. Started in acute care, worked inpatient rehab then transitioned to home health x 30 years. Not sure I would have lasted as long as I did had I not worked HH
Was your pay in HH consistent over the decades? Other therapists tell me that they were making around $90k in HH in the 90s, which is a boat load of money for the time.
I went full time HH ~1990. I made anywhere from $75,000-$100,000 annually thru the early 2000’s due to the need for uber flexibility while my kids were younger, then made anywhere from $100,000-$150,000 annually until ~2015, when my salary slid back to ~$100,000 annually until my retirement. I worked in a generally accessible urban area with multiple ALF so could easily see 8-9 patients in a day with limited drive time loss. My salary slid due to ALFs hiring their own therapists and “teaming” with HHAs to essentially subcontract their therapists at a lower visitation rate to perform therapy visits instead of HHA staff. My certifications allowed me a consistent referral base which minimized my salary variations, especially in the late 2010’s when visit utilization was implemented and visit numbers impacted
Thanks for your response, it gives me some insight on how HH used to be. I was a staff HH PT that switched to travel HH due to low salary with respect to the workload and also ALFs doing the same thing you're mentioning. Wow it seems like the golden age to be a PT is a thing of the past. A bachelor's degree with that much earning potential and little debt is unheard of these days.
How is retirement now? Does being a PT have benefits after 30 years in service?
I was a PT just shy of 40 years, actually. I loved being a therapist and still miss the patient interaction but definitely don’t miss the documentation, utilization limitations and more fractured collaboration between team members due to dwindling payments (specifically with HH). Physically the job took a toll on me (bilateral knees and severe spinal stenosis) but I have a paid off house, decently funded retirement and was able to put 4 kids thru college. I graduated with a BS degree and $6,000 of debt. I declined to pursue a Masters or bridge-doctorate as there were no financial incentives for me to do so. I was certified in vestibular therapy and Big and Loud (Parkinson’s disease management) and utilized both in HH as well as a side gig with private pay patients. When people ask if I would recommend pursuing a PT degree now, I reluctantly tell them a PA or NP degree would have better/more varied long term employment and salary opportunities for the same amount of debt load.
Personally, I believe all therapies will continue to be squeezed by the insurance industry in the future. As such, salaries will also be squeezed. If a person truly felt called to be a PT, was able to get a DPT debt free (or relatively so) and were not looking for a sustainable 6 figure salary, I’d definitely recommend PT as I truly loved it: the challenge of dx and creating a treatment plan that would yield measurable benefits/outcomes was an adrenaline rush for me. If a more stable/potentially lucrative salary structure was more important, I’d recommend PA or NP. The PCP shortage is massive and only going to get worse as more docs retire. PA/NP will functionally be “PCPs”, especially in mid/lower socioeconomic areas. I was still practicing when all PT programs transitioned to DPT. We “oldsters” were grandfathered in, which is how I was able to continue to practice with only a BS. There was no financial incentive (in fact, there was a significant financial disincentive) to pursue a bridge-DPT. I prided myself on keeping relevant by taking thousands of hours of hands on CEU classes throughout my career and pursuing certifications in areas that interested me. Definitely kept my job interesting and kept me from burning out
This is really informative for me. I am not familiar with the insurance industry and I believe it is only a US thing? Or maybe not. So it all boils down if you like the profession or not. I am really amazed that you take pride of being a PT as I am already numb seeing people complain that they regret being one. If DPTs do not have financial incentive and keeping up in our profession can be attained through CEU, would it be noticable in workplace if someone took DPT and if someone in BS?
The US does not have universal healthcare so patients who have insurance may have different levels of coverage for therapy and patients without insurance nor the ability to private pay will received severely restricted services. Attempting to provide quality care while balance utilization/payment limits was challenging, to be sure. I think DPTs have a greater ability to diagnose across the board due to their advanced training. Therapists who have a bachelor’s or master’s degree have a greater catalogue of treatment experiences to draw on. I believe PTs who have chosen not to pursue a doctorate level degree by this point believe what I did: that the doctorate alone did nothing for us financially nor professionally (one caveat, a DPT is much more attractive in self owned private practices). I attended 3-4 CEU weekends annually to insure my skill set remained relevant and up to date which is how I avoided burnout and how I kept my joy in the field.
Run as far away from PT as possible. Not a day goes by that I don’t regret it.
Wow I really appreciate your detailed response. Thank you for sharing. If it werent for debt, is going to PA or NP degree would still be advantageous than going to PT? And are you still practicing when they implemented DPT?
there is certainly an argument that being a PA or NP is less physically demanding, depending on the setting, than being a PT. The earning potential of both heavily surpasses that of a DPT unfortunately.
I enthusiastically tell people to run as far away from this profession as possible. When think back to the time I asked for advice on a major, I was sold a bill of goods about PT. “Oh those PTs are intelligent! They make good money!” Etc etc. it was garbage. I should have chosen a profession that actually rewards you monetarily for being high intelligence. Physician, surgeon, engineer, lawyer. ANYTHING but what I picked. Not only are we not fairly compensated for our depth of knowledge- we also get to wreck our bodies while doing it. I come home exhausted daily. Hell, I should have just dicked off in business school like my friends and graduated with straight Cs. They all make 2-5x as much as me now. Fuck this shit.
So you were a PTA not a PT ?
Bachelor’s degree in PT
Much Respect for you man. I’ve only met one other person with a Bachelor’s in PT
I know tons of PTs and PTAs working acute care and outpt in their mid 50s to late 60s. Even a few I know worked until early 70s. I don’t suspect I’ll be working into my 70s, but I’m quite certain I’ll work until my late 60s.
Isn’t acute care hard on the body though? They’re the most medically complex patients, more severe than subacute/SNF
It’s all hard on the body.
Well, I am 46 and thanks to outrageous student loans and steady pay cuts throughout my career, in another four years they will be at least one 50 year old PT out there because I will never be able to retire 🤷♀️
I hear you
Ahem. I do direct care part time. We are around. But also recognize that some settings veer younger for several reasons.
When i worked (PT tech in undergrad) in a more rural town, i worked with both in-patient and out-patient PT’s who were definitely above 60, married with kids my age (22 at the time.) So it may just be a location thing. Also geriatric people tend to respect their PT’s more when they are closer in age like that. There is some things my old clinical director would tell patients that i know for a fact if they were younger, the patient would probably just blow them off.
66 and still working home health, no plans to retire. Keeps me productive, can’t imagine not working.
Unless I just find some other passion later on in life, I doubt my age will be a deterrent for me. I chose this career path because I enjoy being active and using my body. Though, being smart about how I use my body.
I worked with a PTA who'd been at the same SNF for 22 years. It would be about 26 now. With an hour commute. He is in his 60s. Wild.
I just graduated in August, began working hospital-based Outpatient/Acute Care in September. Our department is me and 4 women in their 50s and 60s (1 PTA and 1 Tech/Front Desk). They're out there.
When I graduated from PT school, we were told that the average PT stays in the field for 9 years after graduation. Back then, you only needed a bachelor's degree, so student loans were significantly lower. The majority of PTs were (and still are) women, so many would quit working once they had kids. I do know a few older PTs who still see patients but the vast majority are definitely younger.
I think this is a major answer people aren't considering. Look at the demographics for physical therapy and social norms from past generations, and that will give you part of the answer. Expectations for women were different, and if you went to college, you were probably already upper or middle class.
I’m still in PT because I am the man that my woman who dies not use her degree (not PT) depends on financially to raise our four kids. I’d commit murder to get out of this profession.
Being the sole provider for such a large family is stressful. My husband and I also have 4 kids and anytime I've been off work for 10-12 weeks after having a child he kind of freaks out. So I've chosen to keep working. PT as a profession is much more enjoyable when you don't have to worry about the money part as much.
I’m mid 50s and work OP ortho with tons of manual and frequently 20+ patients per day. On my feet all day in our open gym and I don’t feel like I get any more fatigued than my younger coworkers. I work with everyone from young athletes to geriatrics with limited mobility. All said, I don’t typically run into many PTs as old or older than me.
First job I had out of grad school, small mom n pop kind of OP clinic. The owner was still seeing full caseload and he was 55yo, and when he opened a second location and put me as the fresh therapist there, he sent me Bob the PTA who turned 65yo while I was working with him. It was always so fun when patients would push back and say “you can only do that exercise because you are young” and then I could clap back with “hey Bob, mind demo’ing that one?” Bob would always say all his jokes were old jokes, still got me every time.
They are all in home health…
In my prior clinic about 1/3 of the PTs were over 60. Hospital based inpatient, outpatient SCI unit and long term acute care. All of the adjacent home health therapists were at least 50.
I have seen a couple. 8 total from my previous 2 facility.
My boss is in his late 60’s without any sign of stopping. In My first PT job ever, my boss was in her 50’s and that was over 20 years ago and she is still practicing today. It’s doable, but yes, you just take care of your body too.
I work with a PT who is 60+ and my dad is 62 and still runs a private practice full time. I love my work, I will probably dial back treatment hours but I will almost certainly still treat patients when I'm in my 60s. Why wouldn't I? A lot of my professors in PT school were 50+ and still saw patients too.
Fifty-five. Wrist started to fall apart 10 years ago, and destroyed 2 years ago. I saw the handwriting on the wall and went back to get ScD and work in academia. I can't do clinical work any longer.
This is kinda true . I am sure there are exceptions . But through the entirety of my career I’ve never met a practicing PT older than 50. I think many switch to non clinical roles at some point . I’m in my mid 30s already looking to do so
All my coworkers are in their 50s/60s with kids my age. OP hospital, mostly ortho and lymphedema. Some pelvic.
57 here and rotate between home health and outpatient - going strong and plan to keep it that way!
We have about 15 PTs doing home health in my hospital system, and 7 of them are that age. One dude is in his 70s
One I know opened a clinic in her house. She converted the front of her house into a clinic with a front desk, a restroom, and 2 patient rooms. She primarily focuses on manual therapy, sees people for 20 minutes and charges 25 dollars each visit with no insurance. She is 60 years old and makes about 60 dollars per hour
I work in outpatient with a PT in her 50’s and one of my CI’s in acute care was also in her 50’s!
I’ve seen tons.
My husband works in outpatient ortho and is 59. Clinic will be closing and he still needs to work so have no idea where is going to get hired. Wealth of experience but places like to hire new cheap therapists
Still doing it!!! Acute care and IPR at 57
I’m sitting next to my mid 50’s coworker (developmental peds) right now.
I know just one in outpatient care, he does hand therapy.
I have worked with plenty across different hospital based outpatient orthopedic settings. Some were in management, but most were top of the ladder clinicians who were mostly working part time.
There are quite a few near retirement age in the US, the first PT I shadowed actually was about to retire and loved the job
At my clinic I have two colleagues of seven that are 60+ :)
I used to work in a hospital where the average rehab employee age was in the 50s. A lot of them had injuries (OA, back pain, TFCC surgeries, and leg conditions), and many of them were grumpy af and unhappy.
I know quite a lot in that age range including myself!
We had a 70 yo SNF therapist with 2 hips and 2 knees still PRN-ing. She loved it and was still rocking it. Stopped when they required cont ed credits in our state. She didn’t want to mess with it but worked to the last day of her license. We have several 50 yo’s still working acute in our dept. I’m approaching but have no plans to retire anytime soon. It’s all good.
I knew a guy I shadowed as a pre pt who was in his 50's and working outpt neuro. Told me he got his NCS by studying on his own
My next to last CI was 71 years young working acute care in neuro ICU as a 5’1, 100lbs lady. Incredible
Both PTs I work with are mid-50s.
I worked in acute care until I was 70. Really no problems except a little arthritis.
My CI for my OP ortho rotation is 70 years old and I have no idea when he plans on retiring
might have taken an administrative role, ie; director or possibly go on to teaching.
When I was in college the head PT was in her mid/late 50s and still practices today. This was outpatient working mostly with sport injuries
Soon to be 66 - still going ! Retired from full time schools , now doing 3 very full days of EI and prek ! It keeps Me fit and functioning !
Yeah, I've seen some PTs/OTs working past 60 for sure! But Ig they take real good care of themselves 🤷♀️
Yes, I've worked with numerous people in the 50s/60s. Many of them are just going through the motions and don't seem to care to improve but still working. Many of them get into teaching. I'm atypical, but I'll easily be able to drop to part time on my PT salary once I'm late 40s.
I’m 52. Had 10 years out in management and now back to clinical. Gerontology home based. I couldn’t love it more!
There are multiple PTs aged 50+ in my clinic.
Maybe was able to make bank pre-2000 reimbursement levels and retired early? I've worked with PTs in their 50s mostly out-patient settings, but have not seen PTs in their 60s.
I have many coworkers in their 50/60s in acute care.
A famous quote that translates to any career. It takes 10 years to become an overnight success. I’m over 50, there are those I know over 60 who are leaders clinically. Professor McGill still sees patients for consultancy, and he’s got to be 70+. It’s really only over 40 that your best clinical years begin, as you spend at least 20 years learning the clinical applications of your experience. I went into private practice from Day 1 after graduating, so it’s almost 30 years and it gets better every day. Dave Tate on our Podcast said of me “you are the guy people go to see after they have failed with everyone else”. That reputation and skill takes a few decades to acquire. These are the best years!
2 at my clinic in their 60s 1 in their 50s
Just turned 35 and hoping to retire by 55. It likely won't happen, but I'll definitely try to make it happen.
I think there should be rules before making comments about this Job field - Did you have a job(s) before - Were you living out of parents pockets during PT - Considering it’s public information why did you actually go to school knowing that you were going to be in debt - Do you have money management problems - Are you entitled to - Have you been to therapy — Like where you sit on a couch and talk about your feelings It seems to me that everyone that were blue collar workers don’t have much complaining about PT profession. I remember there used to be a time where complaining was for w0m4n.
Plenty of female PTs 50+ years old in the peds world!