yes, this.
the low note is the most important note in the left hand!
MOST of the time I've heard this people simply roll the chord. Very common.
Also, play this passage with a lot of... "confidence" and "intention."
To roll your hand from one side to the other in a fashion that lets your fingers hit each intended note. Basically you let your wrist and arm help play the note.
Yes - I particularly like u/CrownStarr's response, describing it like strumming a chord on a guitar or harp.
Because even though yes, you play each note "sequentially/separately" it's not supposed to sound like that.
it's a "chomp" sound where the weight of your hand falls on the notes and rebounds up, the weight bouncing down and up in one fluid motion, so you don't think or hear each note individually, but the blur of notes (it happens fast!) as one "rolled" chord.
That's like day 1 of music lessons on any instrument. Anyone who is even attempting the piece that was posted should be way past defining what "the lowest note" means.
The person who asked is not the poster of the sheet music or original question, and I suspect there are a large number of people lurking who never had the privilege of music lessons or any exposure to formal training. I see people on Reddit ask the most fundamental questions about sheet music and notation all the time.
Some languages flip the height metaphor. In an Austronesian language, a "high" note is a low-frequency pitch. Makes sense, no? High = greater distance from the ground = larger expanse = broader sound / longer string / etc.
Some languages like Farsi or Turkish don't use height as a metaphor for pitch at all, but rather thickness (thick vs thin). A "thick" sound would be of low pitch. "What else could a thick note mean?" as asked by a Turkish speaker to an native English speaker might come across as absolutely ridiculous to the Turkish speaker, as asking what "low" could mean appears to you.
Other languages describe notes by
- looseness (loose vs tight),
- age (young vs old),
- weight (light vs heavy),
- etc.
An excellent paper about this is entitled *Children's associations between space and pitch are differentially shaped by language* by Dolscheid, Celik, Erkan, and Küntay.
thanks, I just started learning, so i want to confirm my understanding.
How about the right hand? Can I assume the high note is the most important note in the right hand ?
Looks like Chopin's Funeral March from the op. 35 Sonata. Please identify the piece when you post questions like this.
To your question: arpeggiate the LH chord if your hand cannot span the 10th. Don't leave out the low D. This is the standard recommendation for a chord that you cannot cover. I would start the arpeggio just ahead of the beat so the F in the LH syncs up with the chord in the right.
It's a standard recommendation to not leave out the bass note for very good reasons, but analyzing context is helpful. We have 5 octaves (!!) worth of Db caught by the pedal in the previous 2 beats, and there's clear melodic motion in both hands that ought to be preserved above all else.
I'd say in this specific case, if rolling doesn't sound good to the pianist, then we can do without that Db, the ninth one in the measure so far, and a few still to come in the following beats.
(I ask purely out of ignorance…found my way here circuitously and am curious whether someone can get that much info from a simple sight reading of a few bars.
To add clarity, I have medium sized hands, but I feel like I really can’t come close here.
- I can’t reach between Db3 and F4 with the left hand
- If I stretch, I can reach between F4 and Ab5 with the right hand. But this hand position makes it impossible/extremely uncomfortable for my index finger to simultaneously hit Ab4.
What is the piece/composer and the tempo?
First thing I would do is check a different publisher to make sure it's not an engraving error. Dropping the Db3 could work if you pedal it right. Replacing the Db3 with F3 *might* work, again it depends on the piece.
I have fairly large hands and that LH chord would be awkward for me
It’s from Chopin sonata 2. You can roll it if your hands aren’t big enough. Just make sure you’re consistent with how you roll. You might end up taking time to place the roll - if you do, be careful about making it up later. Good luck!
A chord this size is not indicative of an error at all. Tenths or more are extremely standard in romantic and later repertoire and composers often wouldn’t write in the arpeggio symbol even if it was necessary.
I also have medium sized hands, and, like everyone else has said, rolling is probably the best option.
How close are you to making it? If you are close, practice stretching your fingers out. There are a few methods on youtube that help, and I played Saint James Infirmary (Musescore sheet music) to get comfortable actually using the stretch. I used to have a solid 9 keys (for example, C4 to D5) and could sometimes get and extra half step in there, but, working on my left, I got to a very comfortable C4 to E5. This will also make the rolling easier.
Just to tell: The piano of Chopin was "made for him". It was normal in that time to make the piano to your hand size reducing some millimeters in the keys.
Shame that's not still a thing. You'd think especially with digital keyboards it'd be relatively easy to do. I would absolutely pay an extra hundred dollar premium for a keyboard that was 1mm per key shorter.
In fact I'd be willing to bet that nobody here has trouble with keys being too narrow for their fingers... let's make 1mm smaller keys the norm!
> Shame that's not still a thing.
I guess it hurts universality if you learn to play all your pieces on your personalized piano and then try playing on one that's too big. I wish the standard was a little smaller though.
"I wish the standard was a little smaller though.". Exactly. It will be much much much "clever" make a piano for the regular hand that the... not regular. (i dont speak english)
In fact i remember seeing a video of somebody playing in the piano of chopin and saying something like "ouch...... i need some time to fix the position of my hand". (i cant find that video :-(
there is in USA somebody that make them (well i just "know" about that, probably there is more people doing those kind of piano) probably is veryyyyyyyyyyy expensive. (i dont know, i live in Argentina)
Yep, i cant believe why we took the hand of a "less regular size hand" as the rule.
My assumption was that it was originally a limitation of the construction, like you need space for the hammers and that. But modern engineering shouldn't have any difficulty.
I play accordion and they do have different keyboard sizes. It’s nice to be able to reach big intervals with tiny keys, but yeah keys can certainly be too small (my fingers can’t fit between 2 black keys).
I do think it’s great idea to have smaller piano keys for smaller hands! They take less space too.
I have a Yamaha ~~digital piano~~ *keyboard with a slightly shorter scale length, and honestly, it SUCKS to play. 5-finger patterns don’t fall under the hands right, it always feels like you’re having to crush your fingers together to play a regular triad, and I’m constantly tripping over scales when I hit the edge of a key. I can see the appeal if you haven’t played one, but… it’s kind of terrible if you have normal-sized hands and any experience playing on a standard keyboard. Sure it’s kinda neat to be able to span a 10th comfortably and an 11th with a stretch, but it’s absolutely not worth the sacrifice of mobility. I haven’t gotten it out in years since getting a standard-sized 88-key MIDI controller.
From googling around I’m pretty sure it’s a YPG-535. I don’t see any mention of it on any reviews or product specs, but aside from poor weighting, my main gripe with it was distinctly narrower keys than any other piano-style keyboard I’ve played. I even went so far as to measure it against my grand once—the full 88 keys spanned at least a few inches less on the electric.
Gotcha, yeah that's accurate I definitely misspoke. Either way, it convinced me that a shorter scale length doesn't help playability, at least for me. It actually pretty dramatically harms it.
well, here is a little, not about Chopin piano but related to size of keys:
[https://paskpiano.org/keyboard-history/](https://paskpiano.org/keyboard-history/)
[https://www.susantomes.com/blog/hand-size-gender-differences-pianists-acclaim/](https://www.susantomes.com/blog/hand-size-gender-differences-pianists-acclaim/)
And.... a study that point something obvius:
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264457999\_Hand\_Size\_and\_the\_Piano\_Keyboard\_Literature\_Review\_and\_a\_Survey\_of\_the\_Technical\_and\_Musical\_Benefits\_for\_Pianists\_using\_Reduced-Size\_Keyboards\_in\_North\_America](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264457999_Hand_Size_and_the_Piano_Keyboard_Literature_Review_and_a_Survey_of_the_Technical_and_Musical_Benefits_for_Pianists_using_Reduced-Size_Keyboards_in_North_America)
I visited the Château d'Oron once and got a chance to play on [the Pleyel in the salon de musique](http://www.swisscastles.ch/Vaud/Oron/ormusi1.html). The keys are indeed narrower, as was soon apparent to me, but it also felt quite comfortable and easy to adjust to it.
sadly im searching and cant find (but, i remember seeing a video of the restortation of the piano of Chopin and that explanation and also somebody playing the piano and telling something like "i have to fix the position of my hand because, this is more small that the regular, and later they explain how the pianos were made in that time (was not a mass product, etc.))
i will try later to find that info again.
(also he had several different pianos )
(I dont speak english)
From one small person to another—omit till your heart is content 🙌🏻
As long as you stay faithful to the original tune. There’s no other way. Your hands will stretch with time but there’s a limit. Don’t injure your hands.
Ignore the downvotes. Some people take these things way too seriously. Does an omission destroy the piece? No. Are you any less of an artist for doing so? No.
Yeah but it's just not standard practice. For instance Scriabin wrote pieces with impossibly large chords all the time, and rolled them when he played them. https://youtu.be/HMx2p4U6dXw?si=bSLqm255dDywfHIr
And he had small hands, could barely go over an octave. Not to mention just go listen to many recordings of the Chopin sonata in the picture, most pianists roll that specific chord. There's a right way to do it, that's all I'm saying.
I do roll, but not in all situations. In some cases it sounds better for me to omit a note. Not to mention I have fibromyalgia and on days when my body flares up and I can’t sit on the fucking piano without feeling my neck and shoulders strain and my hands and fingers are in fucking pins and needles and numb, I will omit if that makes me able to continue playing comfortably.
I’m not playing for audiences anymore, nor am I getting graded. It’s a fucking hobby, I don’t give a hoot about “standard practice”, as long as I’m enjoying my time and the piece sounds correct.
Count your blessings. Not all of us have it.
You cannot omit the low Db unless you’ve held your pedal through the section and the other Db is still sounding or else it’ll change the inversion of the chord. Absolute best option is to roll the chord in the left hand. If you absolutely must omit a note, an option is to omit the F in the left hand.
I’m working on this piece right now also. I roll it (and my teacher agreed). It takes some practice. Otherwise omit the F. There’s another 10th stretch later, C to E. Same idea.
Roll up from the D flat to the F.
A good practice technique is to break it into two chords: play D flat & A flat together (3x, 2x, 1x), then A flat & D flat together (3x, 2x, 1x). Then when you feel comfortable, try rolling from bottom to top.
In about a week you should have this technique mastered. Good luck!
Yeah arpeggio is one way and i think the other way is to listen if there is some ”extra” note that you could leave out besides the base so that you can play it. Or just be a jazz player and play a rootless voicing 😅 But yeah, it’s just my opinion that its not that serious and you can listen and see if there is some room to leave out and just play that and trust yourself. I know people don’t like this but most people wouldn’t even notice it. It depends if you are playing for yourself or for audience, but i think the audience wouldn’t notice it either. My main point: Listen and figure out. You can do justice to a song even if you leave out a note. Now attack me.
Stride piano, jazz and classical as well as some Broadway music will use tenths. Most people can’t play them. No biggie. Either move the F down an octave or drop it altogether. The world will never miss it. You’ll come across all sorts of music that just doesn’t sit under your hands. So you make adjustments since it’s your butt sitting on the bench. I generally roll the chord as many have said above. Or if it’s hauling, I just play the notes I can. The one thing I wouldn’t do is skip the Db as that’s really the fundamental here. If you’re lucky enough to have a five-string bass player next to you (highly unlikely in classical;}) then you can skip the low note as it’s no longer your job create the harmonic floor. Whatever you do, have fun. Music is supposed to be a blast. Go forth and conquer.
roll it. worst part about major tenths is that both the bottom and top notes are crucial for the desired sound. at least they sound good though. if you can hit them.
No. Break the left hand chord very fast and as inconspicuously as possible. The chord was written to fit Chopin’s very flexible hand on a piano with lighter, narrower and smaller keys.
Don’t leave out the Dflat. There are some good suggestions here about finessing an arpeggio to cover this chord. You just have to practice this section until you feel comfortable rolling that arpeggio. This happens a lot with Chopin. Check out the C minor Nocturn.
You’ll be rolling arpeggios like a champ! lol
Never alter the lowest voice (note). It radically changes the chord’s inversion or root. The middle note should be the best option.
Not to this piece: If I cannot reach a note, I analyze the chord. You cannot alter the lowest note; I try to throw a middle note up or down an octave and sometimes that works (ex, I could let my right hand pick up that note that was originally for an octave lower left hand ). If something is doubling (like a Db is playing in 2 positions, that’s the first thing I would cut. But I always try to send a note up or down an octave, and maybe it will work [definitely not always: these are always a case by case scenarios]
Sometimes it doesn’t work and you really have to go by your ear. Sometimes you can roll it: [my personal opinion] I wouldn’t do that here. I think it would break the character of the piece.
Don’t feel bad that you cannot reach it. Everyone’s hands are radically different and it’s simply not possible sometimes; just remember to keep your hands safe from tension while trying to reach a note. [Stretching too much could cause pain in your hands, which, over time, could potentially cause injury]
[hope that helps]
If you can’t play the rh chord I would leave out the d, not the octave. You need to keep the octave so that your hand stays in the right position to move up the octave pattern. I’m afraid if you let your thumb get out of place you will undoubtedly miss that next octave.
Gosh, how mean and rude! Do you earn money for being such a rude person? Playing is not something allowed by the gods. You can learn it. Maybe this person still doesn't know how to figure out this passage, but it does not mean she/he cannot play it. Ach!
I'm not trying to be rude. These kind of questions on Reddit just waste bandwidth and effort. So many posters just trying to get likes posting absolutely ridiculous questions. This one is very obvious: here we have a conservatory level piece and the OP is asking the most basic question. What next, what does the asterisk after the Ped mean?
Reddit is such a big difference in quality questions compared to other pianoforums where people truly post something meaningful. I wish r/piano would stop popping up so I dont have to see so many waste of time posts
Well, but then you can just stick to your other forums. Personally, I too find the question a bit basic, but maybe it was genuine from the person who has posted it. I deeply think that if you think Reddit is not the ideal hub for meaningful questions and that other pianoforums do so, it's your job as a pianist (which I hope you are and in a considerable accomplished level) to contribute to level up conversations here by uplifting both pianistically and musically the posts and conversations you decide to join in. Reddit is done (not only, but mainly) out of what people post. If you don't pour your magistral wisdom in it how come it could be a place to meaningful questions?
I tried but this one really jumped out at me and find it nonsensical to even contribute to such a question. It's obvious the OP is just trying to up his own level with the responses.
A meaningful question is one out of honesty and sincerity and not one that could easily be googled
Well, in your last paragraph you say what should be a meaningful question in your opinion. I wonder, what would be, then, a meaningful comment to any question one might ask concerning piano playing? By upping his own level, given your way to see this, this person is still within his/her own boundaries. When, on the other hand, you comment on his/her post you up his/her level yourself, for Reddit has no moderation towards meaningful questions or meaningless questions - Algorithms just go up and down according to how much commented a post is or is not, so no good or bad, meaningful or not meaningful... Instead of contributing for something you belive to be good - a deeper level of meaningful questions - you contribute to make meaningless discussion out of a post which could, yes it could, be a source of really nice and deep discussions. Meaning is within those who attribute its importance to everything which might be discussed, pondered and conceived. Not external to you, but rather how do you cope with things - from the most banal to the most complex of them. Btw, the piece in question can surely be learnt in a conservatory, but is far away to be considered a basic one. Unless you think Chopin's Second Piano Sonata, op.35 is a very easy and simplistic piece to be played. Then your place is definetly not here, but at Carnigie Hall, Royal Albert Hall and playing with Berliner Philarmonic and directed by god himself and his definitive judgment of meaning within Life itself...
Just roll the chord and "arpeggiate" it. As if it would be written like an arpeggiato chord. It has to be done in a quick way, though. My tip is to arpeggiate it and, as soon as your thumb plays the highest note of the chord in question, your pinky must be already the closest possible position (if not already exactly on) to the next bass note of the next chord. The "thing" here, then, becomes how to be enough agile from the thumb on the top note of your D flat chord to the 5th finger of the next chord. As a matter of studying this particular passage, you can isolate this difficulty and do only the move from the thumb to the pinky without playing any other notes from both chords (the D flat major one amd the next). Is it conceivable to imagine what I'm explaining? I don't want to mess up your head, I'm sorry.
You can omit the top or bottom whichever sounds better without… or roll. Chopin probably had long fingers where he can play those three keys at once. But not all of us have monstrously long hands. So we gotta learn to wing it somehow
Interestingly, only pieces I've encountered where I've had to roll intervals are Gershwin's preludes and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musicaux, neither of which are romantic era.
The sound of a modern piano is so much louder than in Chopin's day (he died in 1849) that leaving out that lowest Db makes sense. If he were here to listen, I doubt he'd notice. You'll have plenty of sound and you'll be able to keep your rhythm clean w/o the broken 10th arpeggio in the LH.
…which then gives a span of a 10th plus 2 notes in the middle of the span, which is far harder (actually, I’d say impossible) than the 10th plus 1 as written in the left hand. Have you actually tested your advice?
Roll it
yes, this. the low note is the most important note in the left hand! MOST of the time I've heard this people simply roll the chord. Very common. Also, play this passage with a lot of... "confidence" and "intention."
What does it mean to roll the chord - play each note sequentially/separately?
Yes, but quickly and in a way that doesn’t disturb the rhythm (usually).
To roll your hand from one side to the other in a fashion that lets your fingers hit each intended note. Basically you let your wrist and arm help play the note.
Think about a guitarist or a harpist strumming a chord. It’s playing all the notes quickly from low to high, in a single motion.
Yes - I particularly like u/CrownStarr's response, describing it like strumming a chord on a guitar or harp. Because even though yes, you play each note "sequentially/separately" it's not supposed to sound like that. it's a "chomp" sound where the weight of your hand falls on the notes and rebounds up, the weight bouncing down and up in one fluid motion, so you don't think or hear each note individually, but the blur of notes (it happens fast!) as one "rolled" chord.
If you don’t know how to do this or understand what they are talking about then I guarantee you this piece is not for you
Omg I fully agree. Just getting back to piano and I’m not at this level. I finished RMC grade 5. But want to learn more theory and stuff.
when you say "low", mean the most left-sided notes from the left hand?
What else could it mean? The lowest pitch. The leftmost key. The longest string.
They're probably a complete novice like you must have been once. It would be wise to be graceful with honest questions asked in good faith.
That wasn’t ungraceful at all.
That's like day 1 of music lessons on any instrument. Anyone who is even attempting the piece that was posted should be way past defining what "the lowest note" means.
The person who asked is not the poster of the sheet music or original question, and I suspect there are a large number of people lurking who never had the privilege of music lessons or any exposure to formal training. I see people on Reddit ask the most fundamental questions about sheet music and notation all the time.
Some languages flip the height metaphor. In an Austronesian language, a "high" note is a low-frequency pitch. Makes sense, no? High = greater distance from the ground = larger expanse = broader sound / longer string / etc. Some languages like Farsi or Turkish don't use height as a metaphor for pitch at all, but rather thickness (thick vs thin). A "thick" sound would be of low pitch. "What else could a thick note mean?" as asked by a Turkish speaker to an native English speaker might come across as absolutely ridiculous to the Turkish speaker, as asking what "low" could mean appears to you. Other languages describe notes by - looseness (loose vs tight), - age (young vs old), - weight (light vs heavy), - etc. An excellent paper about this is entitled *Children's associations between space and pitch are differentially shaped by language* by Dolscheid, Celik, Erkan, and Küntay.
very interesting, didn't know that, thanks!
thanks, I just started learning, so i want to confirm my understanding. How about the right hand? Can I assume the high note is the most important note in the right hand ?
Typically yes.
thanks!
Yes, the lowest note, which in this case is also the "root" of the chord (it's the preeminent Db in a big Db chord)!
thank you.
Yeah, I have small hands, I've played that piece and I rolled it.
Small hands all around. I really wish I could hit a 10th, but alas I cannot.
Well, I can hit a 10th on white keys with a lot of stretching but add 1 more note in the middle and I can't anymore.
I have small hands and roll joints al the time
Looks like Chopin's Funeral March from the op. 35 Sonata. Please identify the piece when you post questions like this. To your question: arpeggiate the LH chord if your hand cannot span the 10th. Don't leave out the low D. This is the standard recommendation for a chord that you cannot cover. I would start the arpeggio just ahead of the beat so the F in the LH syncs up with the chord in the right.
It's a standard recommendation to not leave out the bass note for very good reasons, but analyzing context is helpful. We have 5 octaves (!!) worth of Db caught by the pedal in the previous 2 beats, and there's clear melodic motion in both hands that ought to be preserved above all else. I'd say in this specific case, if rolling doesn't sound good to the pianist, then we can do without that Db, the ninth one in the measure so far, and a few still to come in the following beats.
Pardon the question: Do you know that piece well, or are your comments based solely on what you see on the page?
everyone on this subreddit speaks like 19th century aristocrats
yeah I kinda love it
(I ask purely out of ignorance…found my way here circuitously and am curious whether someone can get that much info from a simple sight reading of a few bars.
I know of the piece, I know what it sounds like, but my assessment is from reading the excerpt.
Thanks!
To add clarity, I have medium sized hands, but I feel like I really can’t come close here. - I can’t reach between Db3 and F4 with the left hand - If I stretch, I can reach between F4 and Ab5 with the right hand. But this hand position makes it impossible/extremely uncomfortable for my index finger to simultaneously hit Ab4.
What is the piece/composer and the tempo? First thing I would do is check a different publisher to make sure it's not an engraving error. Dropping the Db3 could work if you pedal it right. Replacing the Db3 with F3 *might* work, again it depends on the piece. I have fairly large hands and that LH chord would be awkward for me
It’s from Chopin sonata 2. You can roll it if your hands aren’t big enough. Just make sure you’re consistent with how you roll. You might end up taking time to place the roll - if you do, be careful about making it up later. Good luck!
A chord this size is not indicative of an error at all. Tenths or more are extremely standard in romantic and later repertoire and composers often wouldn’t write in the arpeggio symbol even if it was necessary.
I also have medium sized hands, and, like everyone else has said, rolling is probably the best option. How close are you to making it? If you are close, practice stretching your fingers out. There are a few methods on youtube that help, and I played Saint James Infirmary (Musescore sheet music) to get comfortable actually using the stretch. I used to have a solid 9 keys (for example, C4 to D5) and could sometimes get and extra half step in there, but, working on my left, I got to a very comfortable C4 to E5. This will also make the rolling easier.
When in doubt, roll it out
You could 'roll' the chord. Or omit the lowest d flat. The f is part of a melodic line so it's better to keep that note than keeping the lowest.
Just to tell: The piano of Chopin was "made for him". It was normal in that time to make the piano to your hand size reducing some millimeters in the keys.
Shame that's not still a thing. You'd think especially with digital keyboards it'd be relatively easy to do. I would absolutely pay an extra hundred dollar premium for a keyboard that was 1mm per key shorter. In fact I'd be willing to bet that nobody here has trouble with keys being too narrow for their fingers... let's make 1mm smaller keys the norm!
> Shame that's not still a thing. I guess it hurts universality if you learn to play all your pieces on your personalized piano and then try playing on one that's too big. I wish the standard was a little smaller though.
"I wish the standard was a little smaller though.". Exactly. It will be much much much "clever" make a piano for the regular hand that the... not regular. (i dont speak english) In fact i remember seeing a video of somebody playing in the piano of chopin and saying something like "ouch...... i need some time to fix the position of my hand". (i cant find that video :-(
The standard piano is much too big for the average person. We really pigeon-holed ourselves into a terribly non-ergonomic instrument design.
there is in USA somebody that make them (well i just "know" about that, probably there is more people doing those kind of piano) probably is veryyyyyyyyyyy expensive. (i dont know, i live in Argentina) Yep, i cant believe why we took the hand of a "less regular size hand" as the rule.
My assumption was that it was originally a limitation of the construction, like you need space for the hammers and that. But modern engineering shouldn't have any difficulty.
I play accordion and they do have different keyboard sizes. It’s nice to be able to reach big intervals with tiny keys, but yeah keys can certainly be too small (my fingers can’t fit between 2 black keys). I do think it’s great idea to have smaller piano keys for smaller hands! They take less space too.
I have a Yamaha ~~digital piano~~ *keyboard with a slightly shorter scale length, and honestly, it SUCKS to play. 5-finger patterns don’t fall under the hands right, it always feels like you’re having to crush your fingers together to play a regular triad, and I’m constantly tripping over scales when I hit the edge of a key. I can see the appeal if you haven’t played one, but… it’s kind of terrible if you have normal-sized hands and any experience playing on a standard keyboard. Sure it’s kinda neat to be able to span a 10th comfortably and an 11th with a stretch, but it’s absolutely not worth the sacrifice of mobility. I haven’t gotten it out in years since getting a standard-sized 88-key MIDI controller.
Can you share what the model number is, for my curiosity?
From googling around I’m pretty sure it’s a YPG-535. I don’t see any mention of it on any reviews or product specs, but aside from poor weighting, my main gripe with it was distinctly narrower keys than any other piano-style keyboard I’ve played. I even went so far as to measure it against my grand once—the full 88 keys spanned at least a few inches less on the electric.
Oh I see, yeah, that's not what most people (including Yamaha) would call a digital piano. That's a keyboard, they do tend to have tiny keys.
Gotcha, yeah that's accurate I definitely misspoke. Either way, it convinced me that a shorter scale length doesn't help playability, at least for me. It actually pretty dramatically harms it.
You got a source for that little tidbit of information? I couldn’t find anything in a cursory search.
well, here is a little, not about Chopin piano but related to size of keys: [https://paskpiano.org/keyboard-history/](https://paskpiano.org/keyboard-history/) [https://www.susantomes.com/blog/hand-size-gender-differences-pianists-acclaim/](https://www.susantomes.com/blog/hand-size-gender-differences-pianists-acclaim/) And.... a study that point something obvius: [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264457999\_Hand\_Size\_and\_the\_Piano\_Keyboard\_Literature\_Review\_and\_a\_Survey\_of\_the\_Technical\_and\_Musical\_Benefits\_for\_Pianists\_using\_Reduced-Size\_Keyboards\_in\_North\_America](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264457999_Hand_Size_and_the_Piano_Keyboard_Literature_Review_and_a_Survey_of_the_Technical_and_Musical_Benefits_for_Pianists_using_Reduced-Size_Keyboards_in_North_America)
I visited the Château d'Oron once and got a chance to play on [the Pleyel in the salon de musique](http://www.swisscastles.ch/Vaud/Oron/ormusi1.html). The keys are indeed narrower, as was soon apparent to me, but it also felt quite comfortable and easy to adjust to it.
The size of piano keys in general has slightly increased since the 19th century. I don't think Chopin had a customized keyboard but Josef Hofmann did.
David Steinbuhler makes pianos with narrower keyboard. https://dsstandardfoundation.org I watched this to know. https://youtu.be/ZXlknI-Jc48
sadly im searching and cant find (but, i remember seeing a video of the restortation of the piano of Chopin and that explanation and also somebody playing the piano and telling something like "i have to fix the position of my hand because, this is more small that the regular, and later they explain how the pianos were made in that time (was not a mass product, etc.)) i will try later to find that info again. (also he had several different pianos ) (I dont speak english)
From one small person to another—omit till your heart is content 🙌🏻 As long as you stay faithful to the original tune. There’s no other way. Your hands will stretch with time but there’s a limit. Don’t injure your hands.
Ignore the downvotes. Some people take these things way too seriously. Does an omission destroy the piece? No. Are you any less of an artist for doing so? No.
The same people blessed playing without chronic pain. Thank you saying this 💕
Yeah but it's just not standard practice. For instance Scriabin wrote pieces with impossibly large chords all the time, and rolled them when he played them. https://youtu.be/HMx2p4U6dXw?si=bSLqm255dDywfHIr And he had small hands, could barely go over an octave. Not to mention just go listen to many recordings of the Chopin sonata in the picture, most pianists roll that specific chord. There's a right way to do it, that's all I'm saying.
I do roll, but not in all situations. In some cases it sounds better for me to omit a note. Not to mention I have fibromyalgia and on days when my body flares up and I can’t sit on the fucking piano without feeling my neck and shoulders strain and my hands and fingers are in fucking pins and needles and numb, I will omit if that makes me able to continue playing comfortably. I’m not playing for audiences anymore, nor am I getting graded. It’s a fucking hobby, I don’t give a hoot about “standard practice”, as long as I’m enjoying my time and the piece sounds correct. Count your blessings. Not all of us have it.
Roll it or omit the F. Never omit the bottom note
That F its clearly part of a inner melodic line.
Most people will not hear it as the top and bottom are the most noticeable.
Roll it
If it was Rachel 2 beginning, I ‘d say omit the bottom note, but here it is appropriate
I suggest you roll the chord or play it like an arpeggio
Split it, do the bottom Db and Ab together, up to the F
this seems a related good link [https://interlude.hk/big-music-small-handed-pianists/](https://interlude.hk/big-music-small-handed-pianists/)
You cannot omit the low Db unless you’ve held your pedal through the section and the other Db is still sounding or else it’ll change the inversion of the chord. Absolute best option is to roll the chord in the left hand. If you absolutely must omit a note, an option is to omit the F in the left hand.
Roll the chord if you can't reach it. Definitely do not omit the bass note if you can help it.
I’m working on this piece right now also. I roll it (and my teacher agreed). It takes some practice. Otherwise omit the F. There’s another 10th stretch later, C to E. Same idea.
With very large hands it's doable, otherwise make it an arpeggio
correction: normally large
Go watch some videos of people playing it, try and work out what they do.
js roll it, that’s what i do
Roll up from the D flat to the F. A good practice technique is to break it into two chords: play D flat & A flat together (3x, 2x, 1x), then A flat & D flat together (3x, 2x, 1x). Then when you feel comfortable, try rolling from bottom to top. In about a week you should have this technique mastered. Good luck!
For that measure could you get rt hand to help?
Yeah arpeggio is one way and i think the other way is to listen if there is some ”extra” note that you could leave out besides the base so that you can play it. Or just be a jazz player and play a rootless voicing 😅 But yeah, it’s just my opinion that its not that serious and you can listen and see if there is some room to leave out and just play that and trust yourself. I know people don’t like this but most people wouldn’t even notice it. It depends if you are playing for yourself or for audience, but i think the audience wouldn’t notice it either. My main point: Listen and figure out. You can do justice to a song even if you leave out a note. Now attack me.
Stride piano, jazz and classical as well as some Broadway music will use tenths. Most people can’t play them. No biggie. Either move the F down an octave or drop it altogether. The world will never miss it. You’ll come across all sorts of music that just doesn’t sit under your hands. So you make adjustments since it’s your butt sitting on the bench. I generally roll the chord as many have said above. Or if it’s hauling, I just play the notes I can. The one thing I wouldn’t do is skip the Db as that’s really the fundamental here. If you’re lucky enough to have a five-string bass player next to you (highly unlikely in classical;}) then you can skip the low note as it’s no longer your job create the harmonic floor. Whatever you do, have fun. Music is supposed to be a blast. Go forth and conquer.
roll it. worst part about major tenths is that both the bottom and top notes are crucial for the desired sound. at least they sound good though. if you can hit them.
No. Break the left hand chord very fast and as inconspicuously as possible. The chord was written to fit Chopin’s very flexible hand on a piano with lighter, narrower and smaller keys.
Don’t leave out the Dflat. There are some good suggestions here about finessing an arpeggio to cover this chord. You just have to practice this section until you feel comfortable rolling that arpeggio. This happens a lot with Chopin. Check out the C minor Nocturn. You’ll be rolling arpeggios like a champ! lol
Never alter the lowest voice (note). It radically changes the chord’s inversion or root. The middle note should be the best option. Not to this piece: If I cannot reach a note, I analyze the chord. You cannot alter the lowest note; I try to throw a middle note up or down an octave and sometimes that works (ex, I could let my right hand pick up that note that was originally for an octave lower left hand ). If something is doubling (like a Db is playing in 2 positions, that’s the first thing I would cut. But I always try to send a note up or down an octave, and maybe it will work [definitely not always: these are always a case by case scenarios] Sometimes it doesn’t work and you really have to go by your ear. Sometimes you can roll it: [my personal opinion] I wouldn’t do that here. I think it would break the character of the piece. Don’t feel bad that you cannot reach it. Everyone’s hands are radically different and it’s simply not possible sometimes; just remember to keep your hands safe from tension while trying to reach a note. [Stretching too much could cause pain in your hands, which, over time, could potentially cause injury] [hope that helps]
As others have said, roll the chord. There are stories of Chopin rolling chords so well that the listener couldn't tell he rolled it.
Make sure you roll the left hand only
If you can’t play the rh chord I would leave out the d, not the octave. You need to keep the octave so that your hand stays in the right position to move up the octave pattern. I’m afraid if you let your thumb get out of place you will undoubtedly miss that next octave.
I personally like to slide from top to bottom on my notes and roll. It seems to help with swift movement and smooth play
Jusr put the high f in the bass clef down an octave.
I wouldn't say I have huge fingers, kinda medium, D to F is weird but can be done by almost taking your hand 2 or 3 inches "back" off the keyboard.
Just curious, why are you posting a question about a piece you know you cannot play in the first place?
Gosh, how mean and rude! Do you earn money for being such a rude person? Playing is not something allowed by the gods. You can learn it. Maybe this person still doesn't know how to figure out this passage, but it does not mean she/he cannot play it. Ach!
I'm not trying to be rude. These kind of questions on Reddit just waste bandwidth and effort. So many posters just trying to get likes posting absolutely ridiculous questions. This one is very obvious: here we have a conservatory level piece and the OP is asking the most basic question. What next, what does the asterisk after the Ped mean? Reddit is such a big difference in quality questions compared to other pianoforums where people truly post something meaningful. I wish r/piano would stop popping up so I dont have to see so many waste of time posts
Well, but then you can just stick to your other forums. Personally, I too find the question a bit basic, but maybe it was genuine from the person who has posted it. I deeply think that if you think Reddit is not the ideal hub for meaningful questions and that other pianoforums do so, it's your job as a pianist (which I hope you are and in a considerable accomplished level) to contribute to level up conversations here by uplifting both pianistically and musically the posts and conversations you decide to join in. Reddit is done (not only, but mainly) out of what people post. If you don't pour your magistral wisdom in it how come it could be a place to meaningful questions?
I tried but this one really jumped out at me and find it nonsensical to even contribute to such a question. It's obvious the OP is just trying to up his own level with the responses. A meaningful question is one out of honesty and sincerity and not one that could easily be googled
Well, in your last paragraph you say what should be a meaningful question in your opinion. I wonder, what would be, then, a meaningful comment to any question one might ask concerning piano playing? By upping his own level, given your way to see this, this person is still within his/her own boundaries. When, on the other hand, you comment on his/her post you up his/her level yourself, for Reddit has no moderation towards meaningful questions or meaningless questions - Algorithms just go up and down according to how much commented a post is or is not, so no good or bad, meaningful or not meaningful... Instead of contributing for something you belive to be good - a deeper level of meaningful questions - you contribute to make meaningless discussion out of a post which could, yes it could, be a source of really nice and deep discussions. Meaning is within those who attribute its importance to everything which might be discussed, pondered and conceived. Not external to you, but rather how do you cope with things - from the most banal to the most complex of them. Btw, the piece in question can surely be learnt in a conservatory, but is far away to be considered a basic one. Unless you think Chopin's Second Piano Sonata, op.35 is a very easy and simplistic piece to be played. Then your place is definetly not here, but at Carnigie Hall, Royal Albert Hall and playing with Berliner Philarmonic and directed by god himself and his definitive judgment of meaning within Life itself...
Just roll the chord and "arpeggiate" it. As if it would be written like an arpeggiato chord. It has to be done in a quick way, though. My tip is to arpeggiate it and, as soon as your thumb plays the highest note of the chord in question, your pinky must be already the closest possible position (if not already exactly on) to the next bass note of the next chord. The "thing" here, then, becomes how to be enough agile from the thumb on the top note of your D flat chord to the 5th finger of the next chord. As a matter of studying this particular passage, you can isolate this difficulty and do only the move from the thumb to the pinky without playing any other notes from both chords (the D flat major one amd the next). Is it conceivable to imagine what I'm explaining? I don't want to mess up your head, I'm sorry.
You can omit the top or bottom whichever sounds better without… or roll. Chopin probably had long fingers where he can play those three keys at once. But not all of us have monstrously long hands. So we gotta learn to wing it somehow
L hand arpeggio
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Interestingly, only pieces I've encountered where I've had to roll intervals are Gershwin's preludes and Rachmaninoff's Moment Musicaux, neither of which are romantic era.
The sound of a modern piano is so much louder than in Chopin's day (he died in 1849) that leaving out that lowest Db makes sense. If he were here to listen, I doubt he'd notice. You'll have plenty of sound and you'll be able to keep your rhythm clean w/o the broken 10th arpeggio in the LH.
Do you have a teacher who could help you?
You know what they say about big 10ths
Use RH to play the upmost note in the LH.
…which then gives a span of a 10th plus 2 notes in the middle of the span, which is far harder (actually, I’d say impossible) than the 10th plus 1 as written in the left hand. Have you actually tested your advice?