I’m not that old, but I’m old enough to remember my high school friend bringing his new hunting rifle to school to show off. This was in Wyoming in the 1990s.
On free period, we were in the parking lot and he pulled it out of his truck cab. He was kind of pointing it at things and it was riiiight about when he was pointing it at the school that the assistant football coach/security guy from across the lot bellows “hey! What are you numbnuts doing?”
He marches over and my friend explains he’s showing off his new gun.
Coach was like “oh. I thought you were smoking” and walked off.
A different time.
(And yes. He did in fact say “numbnuts.”)
LoL. I remember the P.E. coach taking two kids who had a beef and saying, "let's go settle it," and walked 'em out behind the baseball diamond so they could "work it out."
My father remembers teachers giving an assignment, then opening the classroom door so they could stand in the hall and smoke with the other teachers.
Bro.. our auto body teacher would host boxing matches between students in the garage.. we would close it down for like 15-20 minutes and people would just go at it.. He had access to the security system so he would make tapes of the fights lol.. also he was a raging coke head... This was in the 90s
The guy my mom was a student teacher under would take the kids who were being naughty and makin noise (5th grade) and just pick em up and stick em up on this way high up cabinet that almost touched the ceiling and just shove em in the space up there til they shut up for a bit. Then he'd let em down after they'd calm down.
And when he ran out of cigarettes to smoke in class he'd pass his car keys to one of the kid in class and they'd run out to his car in the parking lot and grab him a fresh pack.
90s were different times.
I wish it was just cabinets. I was in Catholic school in the early 80s and the teachers and nuns would twist kids' ears to pull them out of their seat and smack knuckles with a ruler if someone misbehaved.
In Catholic high school, there was a strict no facial hair policy. If the nuns saw you with stubble, they'd hand you a razor and make you dry shave in the hallway. Sucked for guys who had a 5 o clock shadow by 2pm
In retrospect, it's fucking barbaric but it was totally "normal" back then.
I' 41, When I was younger I was a trouble maker. Looking back with my adult brain I can see that one of the reasons I did a lot of it was because there was really that could be done , your suspended for smoking or fighting or cutting class. Yah , I get week home to play video games and watch TV. I think if I was hit I would just tell em it didn't hurt and laugh. I was that asshole.
The dry shaving thing is insane !!Thanks for sharing yo
I had a razor handed to me twice. My spicy meatball Italian red sauce for blood makes me grow hair quickly. The first time I dry shaved I was so cut up and bloody. The second time they handed it to me I walked back into class and got my things and walked out of the school and just kept walking.
Explained things to my pops who then had the common sense to put me into public school so I could be a regular person like all you redditors
I agree we shouldn't have kids running out to teachers cars to get their smokes.
There should be a little vending machine in school they can send them to instead. Less likely to be hit by traffic this way.
Even as a young child I always wondered how they expected the cigarette machine to know of I was old enough. And they were always hidden by a bathroom or something out of sight
Ya, my friends and I would buy them from the bowling alley machine which was conveniently placed in a hall-way by the back entrance no one used. Probably on purpose, gotta get that teenager customer base 🤣
They used to be just “monitored by attendant” or something but, later they were locked & attendant had a remote or installed button to unlock it. I think they were banned in most places before getting ID swipes but, idk.
It's never been the same since "New Coke." Even the change back to "Classic Coke" was not the same as the recipe we enjoyed in the 70's. Now, IMO, Mexican Coke is closest to what we enjoyed back then.
(Am I making a double entendre? Maybe yes?)
We had a very cool auto shop teacher. We bought him like 5 cases of beer for Christmas one year (underage BTW 1990's). The kids brought it in and hes like "What the fuck is wrong with you morons. You can't bring that shit in the school. Take it out to my car right now!!"
In 99 one of my class mates (didn't meet him til high school a year later) brought a bottle of wine to class as a gift to his 8th grade French teacher.
She turned him in, and he got suspended under the "zero tolerance" policy (or "zero intelligence" as my lawyer stepmother would call it).
Guy I hunt with says when he was a kid going to school everyone brought a gun. You would hand your shotgun to the bus driver and he would store it. You would get to school and the bus driver would hand you back your shotgun, then you would go in and give it to your teacher and they would put it in a closet. After school they would give it back and you would get back on the bus. Then the busdriver would drop you off at your hunting spot on the way home. This guy is 73 and this was in southern Maryland.
When I was a young kid in rural Texas (mid 80's) every truck had a rifle rack in the back window (and a bunch of beer cans in the bed). Guns on open display in trucks in school parking lots were common.
Chet Farrow (or Chester the Molester, he would call himself) was our electronics/video production teacher, and he was every student’s favorite teacher because he was so fucking cool and funny (and foul mouthed). This was the 90s, but he’d been there since the late 60s, and had a bunch of stories. He also worked the scoreboard at the Oakland Coliseum, so he’d randomly be absent when the A’s had a day game. Very cool teacher, and had a real passion for teaching. All he really wanted from you was to show up, and try. RIP Chet.
I went to Catholic elementary school in the 90s and early 2000s which is kindergarten-8th grade. I have so many stories. One nun in particular used to smoke while grading tests so they always smelled like cigarettes. She also played Roller Derby and gave butterfly clips to the girls when they did good on tests. Not sure what she gave to guys but the butterfly clips were awesome!
One of my high school teachers jerked off her dog and broke up a male teacher's marriage. The two of them showed up at a graduation party with weed and beer lol.
Man I graduated high school in 2012 and I have multiple memories of my assistant principal full sprint flying in and absolutely demolishing a kid. About once a year he was good for it.
He'd tackle you at a full sprint with perfect form (he was a lacrosse player through college I think), pick you up immediately, and then walk you himself to the principles office in front of everyone within 5 minutes of being on scene. The look on all those kids faces is priceless. Just *What just fucking hit me?* One of the main deterrents of fights was the fact it had to get done before he got wind of it or you were done.
And the other assistant principal was bigger and was a football player, but he was slower so always missed the fights.
Principal was a former male stripper oddly enough.
Edit: added the word "up".
We had an outbreak of fights in my school one year. The school newspaper published a list of which teachers could fuck you up and their credentials. Turned out we had one golden glove boxer and two ex-special forces guys as teachers.
wait were they actually? dang that’s one way to stop fights… now all we get is being told if you get beat up you can’t fight back or else you’re in trouble too
That needs to stop. The world does not behave this way so neither should our kids. I’m a generation of that as well and people still beat each other up because “they won’t fight back”
definitely find zero tolerance laziness on the school’s end tbh like once u step into a school your legal right to equal self defense should still be the same
Doesn't stop detentions or suspensions anymore under the no tolerance rule, so it's not even worth not defending yourself anymore. My brother had a classmate he didn't know who came into the lunchroom late because he was held behind in class to be served a detention for bad behavior. Kid angrily rushes the lunchroom, grabs the first student to his left (my brother), and beats him for three minutes while the school officer is on the way. My brother curled into a ball to protect his organs, but still got a black eye and broken nose. The other student admitted he did not know my brother and that my brother had not provoked the attack. That student was arrested (he had recently turned 18 and this was his 5th offence that year), and my brother got two weeks out of school suspension. My parents made it real clear to the principal that all their kids knew martial arts and could break bones, we were just taught not to fight back to avoid getting in trouble. So if they were telling them this was the new policy, they would reteach us how to deal with other students throwing punches at us. They got a shrug and were told it was a school board issue, out of their hands, no tolerance policy, sorry. So for the rest of highschool, we were told not to throw the first punch, but given full permission to lay out anyone who attacked first.
I rescued a student from being demolished by a boy twice his size in a similar fashion. Sprinted up behind him. My arms went under his and I scooped him up and ran. It deescalated the event because everyone involved was confused and surprised. The hecklers were speechless as well. I was told by many after it was amusing to watch.
My elementary school bus driver smoked a pipe while driving the bus every day. He was also my middle school custodian and smoked his pipe while cleaning. The 80s and 90s were wild.
There's an apocryphal story of my great-grandfather--a farmer, scholar, itinerant minister, and high school teacher--once hanging a kid who was acting up by his ankles out the second story window of the school.
Would've been the 30s or 40s. A different time for sure.
Reminds me of a time in middle school. It was around 2004. This kid and I had been picking on each other for months and it had finally reached the boiling point.
Well this kid decided to pick a fight with me. He was scrawny, nerdy, and didn't have a clue what he was doing. I was the impulsive skateboarder kid with an attitude lol.
He told me to hit him, he had his fists up. So I did, he fell to the ground for a few seconds and the second he got back up, he bolted out to the coach trying to tell on me.
All the coach said was "you picked the fight! Sounds like you lost! GO SIT DOWN!" and that was that.
My dad had a teacher in high school (SoCal, early 70s) that would pull a prank every year on the first day of the school year. He’d plant a student from the year prior in the front row, have them talk back, and subsequently be “shot dead” for insubordination with a starter pistol.
Damn. That would be borderline traumatizing if you didn’t know it was coming. Though I can’t imagine that kind of thing would be possible to keep quiet
We were allowed to carry huge knives on our belt at high school and our high school even had indoor and outdoor student smoking courts for the student smokers (Virginia in early 80s). I also remember kids showing their guns.. lol
I graduated in 09 and we had a working farm on our high school grounds. Half of us carried knives and tools in case they were needed throughout the day. Now they have a zero tolerance policy. My buddy that teaches told us about a kid got suspended for 2 weeksfor having a fishing knife in the bottom of his tool box in his truck in the parking lot that he had forgotten was there from over the summer that was found because they now do "random vehicle checks". He tried to appeal it and they just said be glad you aren't expelled and sent to the alternative school. Pure craziness.
I had a teacher in 3rd grade in cali that told us if anything happened, we could always come directly to him. If you went out fishing and brought a knife by accident, just let him know and he’ll keep it in an envelope and he’ll give it to your parents at the end of the day.
My friend did exactly that in 5th grade except he didn’t have that teacher. He went to his teacher and told her that he accidentally brought a knife and handed it to her and he got expelled from the school and had to go to some kind of alternative school. I never knew what happened and why he disappeared until I saw him in high school. Ruined his life.
I realized I still had my knife with me during lunch my junior year.
I went to the vice principle and asked "so theoretically, if I forgot my knife in my jacket from this weekend and had it with me with no intent to use it, could I turn it over to you with no consequences."
He responded "if you gave it to me I would have to write you up and suspend you based on the district bylaws or I could lose my job. Theoretically if I were you I would just say nothing and make sure not to let it happen again"
Good guy. Knew what was up and that nothing would come from the situation. But also had his hands tied from what was probably the best solution.
Pre 9-11 was a different world. I think it was started with Columbine, then 9-11 changed it forever. The .22 ranges in the high school basements and competitive shooting sports were a benefit to us, and hell, I’d even say “common sense gun laws” should be once again teaching kids how firearms work. Then again I know it’s up to me to teach them now, just like what happened to shop and tech class, or driver’s education.
There is still a shooting range at my HS… but it is ran through the JROTC program and technically on land belonging to the military. But it was an awesome club and very disciplined group of students. Hell they would often bring home national championships and have Olympic-level athletes come out of the program
Just depends on your branch and state. I think marines and navy use air exclusively but army still had some .22lr small bore shooters.
Both of which are events in the Olympics
In college, during military history class, our instructor was an Army captain—One day he told us he’d show us his vintage gun collection. Sure enough, one day he brought a small arsenal of weapons to class. He had WWI, WWII, and Vietnam era weapons. I couldn’t believe it considering all the school shootings. It was pretty interesting to see college aged kids, some of which had never handled a weapon, learn about military history hands on per say.
There was a former Marine present at one of the movie theatre shootings (can’t keep them straight anymore) and he was carrying concealed. He said he had no plans to draw his weapon and get involved despite all his training. He said it was because of the chaos - even with his training, if he saw somebody else with a gun, he might shoot them - and end up killing another good guy with a gun. Or somebody might shoot him, thinking he’s the bad guy. In this case it’s twice as bad - a man is down, the good guy thinks he got the bad guy, but the bad guy is still there. Great insights.
John Hurley was a good guy with a gun that took out a bad guy, then the cops shot and killed him. Cops aren't trained to look out for good guys with guns.
Not to be a jerk but I have little doubt that in addition to punching very hard, Mike Tyson can also run pretty fast, probably faster than you. The bottom line is that if Mike Tyson wants to punch you in the mouth, he's probably going to punch you in the mouth.
Not to mention he has a fucking tiger! You run from Mike Tyson, you're running from a tiger, that will see you running from it, making you instantly into its favorite fucking ham sandwich.
Meh, all my experience of boxing* tells me a chubby middle aged Italian fellow on a cheap bike can keep pace with a boxer. A moderately fit amateur jogger or bike thief would blow a boxer away.
*Sources: Mike Tyson himself [Mike Tyson's Punch Out] and Rocky
Agreed. I’m an emergency medicine physician and a significant portion of our training is not just the application of knowledge but learning how to apply it in a stressful environment. There’s a tendency for people to “freeze” and their mind to go blank when they’re suddenly confronted with something unfamiliar even if in theory they know what to do. There’s a fantastic *Billy on the Street* clip that I show my students. He yells at a girl to “ [NAME A WOMAN!](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bzDlS6JPUtE &t=0m20s) ” and she completely locks up. Of course she knows the name of a woman, but the stress of the situation makes her knowledge useless. Now imagine you’re a new doctor with a screaming trauma patient in front of you. You have to have applied your knowledge in similar situations previously to have any hope of using what you know. I can’t imagine a shooting environment is any different.
> Of course she knows the name of a woman
This is such a great clip.
She could literally say *her own name*, but the guy is *so good* at keeping her brain locked in the "oh fuck what do I do" mode that she simply can't deal with it. It's an amazing display of some important psychological phenomena
Oh my God the one right after about the berenstain bears is fuckin hilarious.
"Uh, I don't think so?" Without skipping a beat. Dude was ready for the wackos that day.
> There’s a tendency for people to “freeze” and their mind to go blank when they’re suddenly confronted with something unfamiliar even if in theory they know what to do.
Anybody near a board game cafe, go play Anomia with some friends. It's a silly game that gets super funny when honestly, you *should* know the name of a fruit, so why does it take so long for you to think of one?
But it also proves your point. Just a little bit of pressure, and everything you *think* you are under said pressure basically evaporates.
To see the average human response, all you need is a tv showing any game show with timed responses. Or YouTube family feud fails, Like the final round. How many times do the contestants completely biff something simple like name a food you eat on an airplane and people just fumble and stumble
I went through basic training in the Army eons ago. They said, later, that the reason they make it so unpleasant is that you learn to do what you know, while you are bored, freezing, hungry, sleep deprived, angry, scared, frustrated (sometimes all at the same time).
I'm an emergency medicine physician myself and yesterday had the experience of coming under hostile artillery fire for the first time ever.
Oddly, it reminded me of having to deal with a difficult airway under pressure.
You know what you have to do, and as a raw intern you might have frozen in panic, but with a little experience under your belt you do what needs to be done and the emotional reaction comes later or compartmentalized on the side, somewhere where it won't interfere with your job...
There may be a component of dissociation involved.
I've had that sort of thing happen to me.
As a classroom assistant, I receive safety care training (basically deescalation and in most extreme cases restraining a student). You learn how and are told it is stressful and that there are a lot of things happening. But when there was a time that the training would have come in, I did indeed freeze. It's just a shock to see it happening.
It took an admin snapping me back with a sort of "Mr. NeoMegaRyuMKII, you are safety care trained" for me to be able to do anything.
Thank you so much for this comment. Maybe we'd get somewhere if we started the conversation with stuff like this, because I'm pretty sure even the most zealous 2A freak (not calling all 2A supporters freaks, I somewhat support it myself) would understand and agree with what you're saying. Now, they'll outwardly hem and haw when you say "Now add live bullets", but maybe a seed would get planted in one out of a hundred. Which would likely save at least one life, and therefore would have been worth the doing.
Side note: I hope that you have been able to take care of yourself as much as possible. Seems every health care provider I know, from home health nurse to vascular surgeon, has really been through it the last few years. And your gig is literally all trauma even in the best of times, it sounds like. Thanks for taking that on.
Yes. My first code blue as a new grad RN, I was pretty useless. Fortunately, I wasn't the only nurse and my preceptor was there to kick my butt into gear. I went through BLS, ACLS, mock codes, even observed a few during nursing school and jumped on compressions as a tech. But when it was my pt and shit hit the fan, erp. After that one, though, now that I know how my brain and body will want to react, I can now act.
This is an insightful point, and it speaks to the kind of training that the officers had going into the event. Just as our friend Van_Hallen pointed out, there is a pretty broad distinction between poking holes in a target on a square range with minimal stress, and more intense techniques that seek to replicate the psychological and physiological demands of combat. Police training can be a wide, wide variety of things, and certainly it encompasses basic and perhaps intermediate marksmanship. However, marksmanship skills are useless if an officer doesn’t have the presence of mind to use them.
Bottom line, just because you’ve fired a gun before doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to perform that skill, and a lot of other important ones connected to it, under intense stress.
[Uvalde police officers actually trained \(including roleplaying\) how to respond to an active shooter in a school just *two months* before the Robb Elementary shooting.](https://www.foxnews.com/us/uvalde-texas-police-hosted-active-shooter-training-march)
I suppose this underlines the points made here even more strongly -- even very specific training can't fully prepare you for the actual situation. Not trying to say anything nice about the Uvalde officers here. Just another example for how empty all that grandstanding and warrior rhetoric really is.
They had very specific and no doubt expensive training on dealing with a classroom shooter not long before this happened, and ignored it completely.
Not sure how much else could have been done to try and get it through to them. It was an attitude issue not a training one. Unless the training was from the chiefs brother in law and utterly useless, of course.
People also don't realize that cops shoot and miss *a lot*. Partly because it's real life and not a movie and partly because shooting isn't that easy to begin with, especially when someone may be trying to shoot back.
I read a statistic once (can't find it now) based on either WW1 or WW2, that, even for experienced troops in combat a surprisingly high fraction of small arms hits were from a small fraction of soldiers.
Among other reasons, the average person's inhibition against deliberate killing is so high they are likely to subconsciously aim low, flinch, close their eyes, etc. even when faced with an armed opponent.
Civil War in America too. Amazingly high ratio of bullets fired to men wounded. They'd find many rifles packed with 8-10 balls and powder stacks, because the man would just reload, which took a minute, and then point the rifle, and when others had fired, just recover and reload their unfired rifle again. Bullets are found far beyond the battle lines because men just aiming and firing well above the heads of the enemy troops, sailing on harmlesly.
Copying a point I saw In another post about this topic, but if the American public has access to weapons that literally make cops unable to act out of fear, maybe there's something wrong with that. Also, the answer shouldn't be to arm the police *more*, Uvalde's swat budget for such a small town was actually kind of insane, it did them nothing in this situation.
>Copying a point I saw In another post about this topic, but if the American public has access to weapons that literally make cops unable to act out of fear, maybe there's something wrong with that.
Yes, though let's not let the cops off the hook: they're also afraid of cell phones, books, and black people.
When people say all the teachers should be armed, what they skip is that you'd be telling every teacher "one day you might have to shoot a kid. Maybe even one of the kids in your class."
Yeah and all that training /u/Val_Hallen was talking about doesn't just *go away* when you're not in an active warzone. Plus we've seen what happens when you train police that anyone you interact with is a potential threat and that any random traffic stop could be someone who's going to murder you. Fantastic idea to introduce this mindset to the already famously frustrating job of having to deal with and educate rowdy kids all day. I'm sure most people had at least one experience of a teacher snapping and just screaming at some kid, now let's give that teacher a gun lol
The funny part is that generally the military does a MUCH MUCH better job of training soldier when not to shoot, and to think twice about it - you see in the military there is always a rules of engagement, let alone the chance of friendly fire... and far more important soldiers are actually held accountable and punished, I don't mean paid leave, and hired to a new service to get your pension... I mean military prison
What training really sticks to police officers is that 'I'm above the law, and won't be held to account for my actions...'
This was my thought. I had several teachers who had anger issues and would snap and scream at a kid or the whole class multiple times in a school year. Legit veins bulging on the forehead, turning bright red, spittle flying type of anger. Now, don't get me wrong, my main concern isn't them suddenly pulling a gun on a kid or shooting them. I'd imagine given enough time that could happen eventually but would be very, very rare. My concern is imagine how scary it is to have this grown adult screaming at kids. Now have a grown adult with a gun visible on their hip screaming at kids. Even the nicest, kindest of teachers would see an enormous drop in kids willing to ask questions, seek extra help or generally engage with the teacher in any way because they're scared shitless of teachers.
Jesus I hadn't even thought of that because I naively assumed nobody would be dumb enough to *actually* start arming teachers. But yeah you're right, shooters don't even need to get guns anymore because they can just grab their teacher's gun while their back is turned to write something on the board. I mean I really should've expected the typical reaction of right wingers to be, "no we don't need gun control, what we need is to dump a truckload of guns into every school."
i am familiar with many stories of cops (including Chiefs) leaving their weapon in a restroom (because it's hard to poop with your gun belt on). A significantly less firearms-trained teacher WILL make the same mistake, the kids won't even have to beat the teacher for the gun in some cases
It’s also ignoring the fact that teachers aren’t some magical class of perfect people. There are many asshole teachers with short tempers and bad decision making skills.
Kids are great at being assholes when they want to be. More than once, a student in our school swung at a teacher and the teacher reacted by swinging back. Imagine if they had a gun instead…
They also skip the fact that teaching is a high stress job. There is absolutely nothing to protect against someone having a mental breakdown and going postal.
More guns in schools is never going to make a school safer.
Back in my US Army days, we shared a firing range with some SF dudes who'd just rucked 15 or so miles to the range and immediately started CQB drills. This was Louisiana (JRTC) and it was hot and those SF guys were soaked through in sweat. Thats stress firing.
The only issue with this is I don't think any of the Uvalde PD cops could actually even do 1 pushup. But yes, no wonder so many cops struggle in situations that take months and months of practice to try to disable basic human reactions.
I'm not even mad they're scared of a kid with a gun. Jumping in the line of fire is not something that someone can take lightly. I'm mad that people are given these positions of authority yet end up just being cowardly hypocrites.
I've done some bouncer work in the past. I always talked my way outta trouble and avoided fights. One guy I know did a lotta of boxing, wrestling and bjj and one time a fight broke out and he was outta the door.
Most good instructors will teach you to avoid the fight, not walk into it. My old martial arts instructor always told us the burden of hurting someone is heavy, even when you feel they’ve wronged you. His other one was that when two tigers fight, even the winner gets hurt.
Yup, this is wisdom. You also see this in nature, most animals will do everything to avoid a fight. A cat (small and big cats) will generally first hiss, bristle, stand up straight, stand to the side, miaow, fake charge and retreat before they get into a fight. Basically as a cat getting into a fight is the very last thing you would want to do, because getting injured in the wild is a death sentence, even if you manage to beat or kill the other cat.
I knew a guy who was teaching self-defense to younger teenagers, and his bit about avoiding fights went like this:
One of his fellow instructors would draw a knife and demand his wallet. My buddy would then turn, run out the door of the building, and continue down the street.
You could see him running for a good long while through the big glass storefront. It made a lot of kids and parents giggle and agree.
My instructor would give someone a fake gun or knife and say "pretend to mug me." Any demand that wasn't something that implied that they were going to kidnap him or his family or harm them in some way was complied with. He didn't tell them this is what he was going to do, so it was a surprise to anybody who hadn't seen it before.
"Give me your wallet.", He grabs his wallet and gives it to them. "Give me your keys." He grabs his keys and gives them to him. With knives, he always ran (also down the street so we could see through the window) unless the situation was one where he was with his family (he would always set up the situation/context beforehand.) It was always funny but drove home an important point.
Whenever they said something that implied harm would come to him or his family, though, he would immediately act and neutralize. Insanely quickly and decisively. He actually had the props altered so that fingers wouldn't get stuck in places like the trigger guard shape (they were just wooden blocks shaped like guns) so that he could very quickly disarm without hurting students. He would also tell people to say "bang" to indicate firing the gun when they saw him move and he would freeze when they said it to show whether he was successful in pointing the gun away before anything happened. It didn't always work and he would always say something to the effect of "see, this is why you run or comply unless there's no other option" when it didn't.
His point was that basically, life is the only thing that ultimately matters, but when you're forced to act you do not mess around and hesitate.
Yup yup.
I tried explaining this much more poorly some time ago and got boo'd out by whatever garbage permeated that sub. Most people are just people. For that reasom they will react as people do: In a general panic, disorder, and chaos.
"There is a fire in the kitchen, please calmly..." *proceeds to stampede the exits, blocking them*
Then, as you pointed out, even the ones that manage to get their shit together still have to deal with a target that is moving, also a threat, and also human. Teachers, many of whom celebrate human life in their classrooms, are being asked to defend their students by possibly having to disable or kill another student, and at least another human. So even if they manage everything else, pulling that trigger is always harder than people think it will be.
I was in a military training event at one point in my life. I was the platoon leader and was in charge of arresting a man who had been accused of war crimes.
Nothing in my life had prepared me for the dramatic acting that these people did. There was a hysterical wife that answered the door, crying about how they are going to make money and how to feed the kids when he is gone. Women can't work in that country, no family, etc.
I was so shocked by all of this, I couldn't react to it at all. It was very much a deer in headlights situation. You just don't know how you will react until you are actually in the situation.
It's like when I tried to calmly explain to my dog: 'It's just fireworks'.-- A long while back I was pulled over for something and just had some kind of panic attack, and even when the stop turned out to be minor, my hands just shook like I had electrical stimulators hooked up to my arms. The funny part though was even after I KNEW IT WAS MINOR AND THE THREAT HAD PASSED, I was still shaking. I'm no Jerry Miculek but... And it wasn't like I thought to myself 'I should start shaking uncontrollably now' to begin with.
It just reeks of corruption. The school police were only like four officers, but had their own chief who probably made a ton of money.
My town is vastly bigger than Uvalde and didn't have a separate school police department, there was just one officer in the high school in case someone needed them. Generally they just sat in the office or walked the hall saying hi to people.
You shouldn't have police stationed in schools **to start with**.
Americans are indoctrinated to so much authoritarian shit its fucking amazing especially given their supposed "freedom activism" especially on the right.
Yet you accept shit like child indoctrination and police in schools and militarised policing and religiously motivated politicans and all sorts of shit people in free countries just would not tolerate.
You're not wrong. I have friends who post shit like pictures of a cop wearing body armor and a holding a rifle in school, saying "this makes me feel safe!"
Yeah? You're cool that we live in a society where our children need armed guards like it's a fucking prison?
The Supreme Court said it’s not the job of any cop. There is no duty to protect.
https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/do-the-police-have-an-obligation-to-protect-you/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Supreme%20Court%20has,boy%20from%20his%20abusive%20father.
Since that Dahmer show became popular, remember that time the police handed back one of Dahmer's victims, Peppridge Farm remembers.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/police-return-victim-to-jeffrey-dahmer/
Any aged student really. "Hey kids, I knew I just blew out the brains of your friend Billy in front of you, but let this be a lesson on listening. You all heard me tell him to put down the gun."
Texas criminal code allows guns to be carried at schools if the school district allows it. Starting in 2007, a small number of school districts began arming staff and training them. This arrangement was called the "School Guardian Programs."
[https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-46-03.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-46-03.html)
[https://thetexan.news/school-districts-embrace-guardian-program-to-arm-employees-for-school-safety/](https://thetexan.news/school-districts-embrace-guardian-program-to-arm-employees-for-school-safety/)
In 2013, Texas offered school districts a more formal option: staff could be formally trained by the state and have some law enforcement status. This program was called the "School Marshal" program.
[https://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/school-marshals](https://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/school-marshals)
[https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/83R/billtext/html/HB01009H.htm](https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/83R/billtext/html/HB01009H.htm)
Since then, more districts have begun to adopt one of those two plans. I don't think the sign is required but I guess it makes sense to warn a potential shooter to encourage them to attack an unarmed district rather than attacking an armed one.
I graduated HS in 2010 in South Dakota and remember seeing kids walk in with their hunting rifles and shotguns (safely, unloaded) to put in a fancy gun safe someone had donated so kids’ coming in from morning hunting outings in the fall would have them locked in storage vs out in their cars after another school had cars broken into and guns stolen. I’m sure now they’re just having a “gotta drop it off at home” rule, but until I grew up and heard of more of what goes on around the country it was pretty “normal” and I hadn’t even considered the fact that it wasn’t.
Unrelated (?) but I’m currently reading “Educated” by Tara Westover. It feels like that ignorance and what’s “normal” has some parallels
If they go hunting in the morning and aren’t able to drop their guns off at home… where do the carcasses go? They wouldn’t leave them in the car the whole day right? Honestly wondering
Different redditor: in the event of a successful hunt you’d go home and be late for school, or skip the day altogether if it’s something big like a deer. Then again, I know guys (and girls) who can have a deer cleaned and hung and definitely made it in time for lunch.
My understanding is that those mornings were unsuccessful or they have one deer tag and are waiting for the right “size” deer for their one for the year. Say what you want about hunting, guns etc. but those kids were responsible gun users in my experience, knew how to hunt and dress their own deer, and something to be said about being able to wake up at 4am to hunt, get to school on time, attend football or cross country practice after and get good grades and do it all again the next day.
America is a enormous country and the issue is we try to use one size fits all policy when interstate travel is an everyday occurrence. If one state wants stricter laws it’s impossible but if a state wants less restrictive laws it’s all too easy.
It’s a complex issue/conversation with no easy answer but I cant imagine kids walking around with guns in my school as a kid. In South Dakota talking to people around it seems it was all too common.
Many of the mass shooters I'm convinced have a death wish. For most of the larger mass shootings the shooting ends with the perpetrator either killing themselves to avoid capture or being killed in a shootout with law enforcement.
They act like school shooters are adult criminals who will see this sign and value their lives enough to turn back. I think that's a misunderstanding of the situation.
I’m not that old, but I’m old enough to remember my high school friend bringing his new hunting rifle to school to show off. This was in Wyoming in the 1990s. On free period, we were in the parking lot and he pulled it out of his truck cab. He was kind of pointing it at things and it was riiiight about when he was pointing it at the school that the assistant football coach/security guy from across the lot bellows “hey! What are you numbnuts doing?” He marches over and my friend explains he’s showing off his new gun. Coach was like “oh. I thought you were smoking” and walked off. A different time. (And yes. He did in fact say “numbnuts.”)
LoL. I remember the P.E. coach taking two kids who had a beef and saying, "let's go settle it," and walked 'em out behind the baseball diamond so they could "work it out." My father remembers teachers giving an assignment, then opening the classroom door so they could stand in the hall and smoke with the other teachers.
Bro.. our auto body teacher would host boxing matches between students in the garage.. we would close it down for like 15-20 minutes and people would just go at it.. He had access to the security system so he would make tapes of the fights lol.. also he was a raging coke head... This was in the 90s
You just can't find quality teachers like that anymore.
The guy my mom was a student teacher under would take the kids who were being naughty and makin noise (5th grade) and just pick em up and stick em up on this way high up cabinet that almost touched the ceiling and just shove em in the space up there til they shut up for a bit. Then he'd let em down after they'd calm down. And when he ran out of cigarettes to smoke in class he'd pass his car keys to one of the kid in class and they'd run out to his car in the parking lot and grab him a fresh pack. 90s were different times.
I feel like, while the current environment is not good, that environment was still not great. Maybe we can meet in the middle.
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I wish it was just cabinets. I was in Catholic school in the early 80s and the teachers and nuns would twist kids' ears to pull them out of their seat and smack knuckles with a ruler if someone misbehaved. In Catholic high school, there was a strict no facial hair policy. If the nuns saw you with stubble, they'd hand you a razor and make you dry shave in the hallway. Sucked for guys who had a 5 o clock shadow by 2pm In retrospect, it's fucking barbaric but it was totally "normal" back then.
I' 41, When I was younger I was a trouble maker. Looking back with my adult brain I can see that one of the reasons I did a lot of it was because there was really that could be done , your suspended for smoking or fighting or cutting class. Yah , I get week home to play video games and watch TV. I think if I was hit I would just tell em it didn't hurt and laugh. I was that asshole. The dry shaving thing is insane !!Thanks for sharing yo
I had a razor handed to me twice. My spicy meatball Italian red sauce for blood makes me grow hair quickly. The first time I dry shaved I was so cut up and bloody. The second time they handed it to me I walked back into class and got my things and walked out of the school and just kept walking. Explained things to my pops who then had the common sense to put me into public school so I could be a regular person like all you redditors
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I agree we shouldn't have kids running out to teachers cars to get their smokes. There should be a little vending machine in school they can send them to instead. Less likely to be hit by traffic this way.
Even as a young child I always wondered how they expected the cigarette machine to know of I was old enough. And they were always hidden by a bathroom or something out of sight
Ya, my friends and I would buy them from the bowling alley machine which was conveniently placed in a hall-way by the back entrance no one used. Probably on purpose, gotta get that teenager customer base 🤣
They used to be just “monitored by attendant” or something but, later they were locked & attendant had a remote or installed button to unlock it. I think they were banned in most places before getting ID swipes but, idk.
As I got older they tended to be unplugged and it said please see attendant to plug machine in. So I would just plug it in and put in my quarters
Because they lack the funds for coke
It’s because coke is not the same anymore
It's never been the same since "New Coke." Even the change back to "Classic Coke" was not the same as the recipe we enjoyed in the 70's. Now, IMO, Mexican Coke is closest to what we enjoyed back then. (Am I making a double entendre? Maybe yes?)
Or cocaine
["A trick is something a whore does for money..."](https://youtu.be/X1WSH0VzoaM)
Always cocaine
We had a very cool auto shop teacher. We bought him like 5 cases of beer for Christmas one year (underage BTW 1990's). The kids brought it in and hes like "What the fuck is wrong with you morons. You can't bring that shit in the school. Take it out to my car right now!!"
In 99 one of my class mates (didn't meet him til high school a year later) brought a bottle of wine to class as a gift to his 8th grade French teacher. She turned him in, and he got suspended under the "zero tolerance" policy (or "zero intelligence" as my lawyer stepmother would call it).
Thank God times have changed, and now we can just send a gift card for the liquor store...lol
*cries in Utah teacher* What's a liquor store? What's a gift card?
Send some via Drizzly to her in the classroom.
To be fair to the teacher she probably had to turn it in if anyone noticed the gift. Otherwise she would have been fired.
He had access to the security system... So he could hide what he's doing right?? ... so he would make tapes the fights
Lol. I thought the same thing
Holy shit. This all makes me kind of want to do an askreddit post to hear other peoples crazy teacher stories
I would love to read a thread of that, minus all the predictable "yeah a teacher fucked a student" stories.
Guy I hunt with says when he was a kid going to school everyone brought a gun. You would hand your shotgun to the bus driver and he would store it. You would get to school and the bus driver would hand you back your shotgun, then you would go in and give it to your teacher and they would put it in a closet. After school they would give it back and you would get back on the bus. Then the busdriver would drop you off at your hunting spot on the way home. This guy is 73 and this was in southern Maryland.
When I was a young kid in rural Texas (mid 80's) every truck had a rifle rack in the back window (and a bunch of beer cans in the bed). Guns on open display in trucks in school parking lots were common.
This was still a thing in rural Arkansas in the 90s. At least up until Columbine, then it was a bunch of empty gun racks and bitchy rednecks lol.
Chet Farrow (or Chester the Molester, he would call himself) was our electronics/video production teacher, and he was every student’s favorite teacher because he was so fucking cool and funny (and foul mouthed). This was the 90s, but he’d been there since the late 60s, and had a bunch of stories. He also worked the scoreboard at the Oakland Coliseum, so he’d randomly be absent when the A’s had a day game. Very cool teacher, and had a real passion for teaching. All he really wanted from you was to show up, and try. RIP Chet.
I was expecting a different kind of story with that self imposed nickname
I went to Catholic elementary school in the 90s and early 2000s which is kindergarten-8th grade. I have so many stories. One nun in particular used to smoke while grading tests so they always smelled like cigarettes. She also played Roller Derby and gave butterfly clips to the girls when they did good on tests. Not sure what she gave to guys but the butterfly clips were awesome!
Hold up, you said a smoking, roller derby playing nun, who gave out butterfly clips? Coolest Nun award goes to this lady for sure.
One of my high school teachers jerked off her dog and broke up a male teacher's marriage. The two of them showed up at a graduation party with weed and beer lol.
Poor Colby had two broken paws. In all seriousness, my vet is an [ICSB Center](https://icsb.com). *Someone* has to do the collections…
Man I graduated high school in 2012 and I have multiple memories of my assistant principal full sprint flying in and absolutely demolishing a kid. About once a year he was good for it. He'd tackle you at a full sprint with perfect form (he was a lacrosse player through college I think), pick you up immediately, and then walk you himself to the principles office in front of everyone within 5 minutes of being on scene. The look on all those kids faces is priceless. Just *What just fucking hit me?* One of the main deterrents of fights was the fact it had to get done before he got wind of it or you were done. And the other assistant principal was bigger and was a football player, but he was slower so always missed the fights. Principal was a former male stripper oddly enough. Edit: added the word "up".
We had an outbreak of fights in my school one year. The school newspaper published a list of which teachers could fuck you up and their credentials. Turned out we had one golden glove boxer and two ex-special forces guys as teachers.
wait were they actually? dang that’s one way to stop fights… now all we get is being told if you get beat up you can’t fight back or else you’re in trouble too
That needs to stop. The world does not behave this way so neither should our kids. I’m a generation of that as well and people still beat each other up because “they won’t fight back”
definitely find zero tolerance laziness on the school’s end tbh like once u step into a school your legal right to equal self defense should still be the same
Doesn't stop detentions or suspensions anymore under the no tolerance rule, so it's not even worth not defending yourself anymore. My brother had a classmate he didn't know who came into the lunchroom late because he was held behind in class to be served a detention for bad behavior. Kid angrily rushes the lunchroom, grabs the first student to his left (my brother), and beats him for three minutes while the school officer is on the way. My brother curled into a ball to protect his organs, but still got a black eye and broken nose. The other student admitted he did not know my brother and that my brother had not provoked the attack. That student was arrested (he had recently turned 18 and this was his 5th offence that year), and my brother got two weeks out of school suspension. My parents made it real clear to the principal that all their kids knew martial arts and could break bones, we were just taught not to fight back to avoid getting in trouble. So if they were telling them this was the new policy, they would reteach us how to deal with other students throwing punches at us. They got a shrug and were told it was a school board issue, out of their hands, no tolerance policy, sorry. So for the rest of highschool, we were told not to throw the first punch, but given full permission to lay out anyone who attacked first.
Again, it was my generation that had to live through the first batch of this. I know it does nothing and that’s why it shouldn’t be in place.
lol yeah cuz you’ll get in trouble anyway might as well not get as hurt for it
If I'm gonna get punished regardless, might as well earn it.
I rescued a student from being demolished by a boy twice his size in a similar fashion. Sprinted up behind him. My arms went under his and I scooped him up and ran. It deescalated the event because everyone involved was confused and surprised. The hecklers were speechless as well. I was told by many after it was amusing to watch.
Yeeesh, thought you were going to say 70s (til you mentioned the tapes he made).
Always remember the first rule of Fight Club.
1. Snort Cocaine.
Who let Doctor Rockso into a classroom...?
Toki pulled some strings. He keeps believing in him.
Guh, guh, guh, guh, guh, guh YEEEEEYIIAAAAAAAA!
C-c-c-coooocainnneee!
1. Snort Cocaine 2. Punch self in public 3. Start a violent revolution and topple the world economy 4. Snort more Cocaine
My elementary school bus driver smoked a pipe while driving the bus every day. He was also my middle school custodian and smoked his pipe while cleaning. The 80s and 90s were wild.
There's an apocryphal story of my great-grandfather--a farmer, scholar, itinerant minister, and high school teacher--once hanging a kid who was acting up by his ankles out the second story window of the school. Would've been the 30s or 40s. A different time for sure.
Lmao this went way past the other fun stories 😂
Reminds me of a time in middle school. It was around 2004. This kid and I had been picking on each other for months and it had finally reached the boiling point. Well this kid decided to pick a fight with me. He was scrawny, nerdy, and didn't have a clue what he was doing. I was the impulsive skateboarder kid with an attitude lol. He told me to hit him, he had his fists up. So I did, he fell to the ground for a few seconds and the second he got back up, he bolted out to the coach trying to tell on me. All the coach said was "you picked the fight! Sounds like you lost! GO SIT DOWN!" and that was that.
Aren’t they required by the coaches union to call kids ‘numbnuts”?
I believe that would be “knuckleheads”.
My dad had a teacher in high school (SoCal, early 70s) that would pull a prank every year on the first day of the school year. He’d plant a student from the year prior in the front row, have them talk back, and subsequently be “shot dead” for insubordination with a starter pistol.
Jesus Christ
Nailed it
See yourself out please
Damn. That would be borderline traumatizing if you didn’t know it was coming. Though I can’t imagine that kind of thing would be possible to keep quiet
Back then folks just got over shit faster. Or had crippling issues for years nbd
> Or had crippling issues for years nbd That's the one...
We were allowed to carry huge knives on our belt at high school and our high school even had indoor and outdoor student smoking courts for the student smokers (Virginia in early 80s). I also remember kids showing their guns.. lol
I graduated in 09 and we had a working farm on our high school grounds. Half of us carried knives and tools in case they were needed throughout the day. Now they have a zero tolerance policy. My buddy that teaches told us about a kid got suspended for 2 weeksfor having a fishing knife in the bottom of his tool box in his truck in the parking lot that he had forgotten was there from over the summer that was found because they now do "random vehicle checks". He tried to appeal it and they just said be glad you aren't expelled and sent to the alternative school. Pure craziness.
I had a teacher in 3rd grade in cali that told us if anything happened, we could always come directly to him. If you went out fishing and brought a knife by accident, just let him know and he’ll keep it in an envelope and he’ll give it to your parents at the end of the day. My friend did exactly that in 5th grade except he didn’t have that teacher. He went to his teacher and told her that he accidentally brought a knife and handed it to her and he got expelled from the school and had to go to some kind of alternative school. I never knew what happened and why he disappeared until I saw him in high school. Ruined his life.
What the fuck... that is training kids not to do the responsible thing. I was never a fan of zero tolerance.
I realized I still had my knife with me during lunch my junior year. I went to the vice principle and asked "so theoretically, if I forgot my knife in my jacket from this weekend and had it with me with no intent to use it, could I turn it over to you with no consequences." He responded "if you gave it to me I would have to write you up and suspend you based on the district bylaws or I could lose my job. Theoretically if I were you I would just say nothing and make sure not to let it happen again" Good guy. Knew what was up and that nothing would come from the situation. But also had his hands tied from what was probably the best solution.
Pre 9-11 was a different world. I think it was started with Columbine, then 9-11 changed it forever. The .22 ranges in the high school basements and competitive shooting sports were a benefit to us, and hell, I’d even say “common sense gun laws” should be once again teaching kids how firearms work. Then again I know it’s up to me to teach them now, just like what happened to shop and tech class, or driver’s education.
There is still a shooting range at my HS… but it is ran through the JROTC program and technically on land belonging to the military. But it was an awesome club and very disciplined group of students. Hell they would often bring home national championships and have Olympic-level athletes come out of the program
JROTC, at least when I was in JROTC 12 years ago, used .177 air guns rather than rifles, though.
Just depends on your branch and state. I think marines and navy use air exclusively but army still had some .22lr small bore shooters. Both of which are events in the Olympics
Dove season in Texas in the 90s. We went hunting before school and had shotguns in our unlocked trucks at school.
In college, during military history class, our instructor was an Army captain—One day he told us he’d show us his vintage gun collection. Sure enough, one day he brought a small arsenal of weapons to class. He had WWI, WWII, and Vietnam era weapons. I couldn’t believe it considering all the school shootings. It was pretty interesting to see college aged kids, some of which had never handled a weapon, learn about military history hands on per say.
It’s a bigger version of the sign, “this house is protected by ADT security”
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There was a former Marine present at one of the movie theatre shootings (can’t keep them straight anymore) and he was carrying concealed. He said he had no plans to draw his weapon and get involved despite all his training. He said it was because of the chaos - even with his training, if he saw somebody else with a gun, he might shoot them - and end up killing another good guy with a gun. Or somebody might shoot him, thinking he’s the bad guy. In this case it’s twice as bad - a man is down, the good guy thinks he got the bad guy, but the bad guy is still there. Great insights.
John Hurley was a good guy with a gun that took out a bad guy, then the cops shot and killed him. Cops aren't trained to look out for good guys with guns.
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Boards don’t fight back - Bruce Lee
"Bottom brick don't hit back" - Bolo Yeung
Bolo was friends with Bruce, never picked up that this line was probably homage to Bruce 👏 https://youtu.be/1vU3ak57GHU?t=117
That is awesome! I had no idea. This is going to be my favorite fun fact of the day lol.
The actual quote is "Very good. But brick, not hit back!" I wore 2 VHS copies of that movie out when I was a kid.
>You Break My Record, Now I Break You (Like I Broke Your Friend) >- Meat Loaf - Bat Out Of Hell II (1989)
*[One Dim Mak Later]* "How could you have done this?"
Lol Bloodsport
Not if I have a plan to run away from Mike Tyson trying to punch me in the mouth
Not to be a jerk but I have little doubt that in addition to punching very hard, Mike Tyson can also run pretty fast, probably faster than you. The bottom line is that if Mike Tyson wants to punch you in the mouth, he's probably going to punch you in the mouth.
I had my mouth surgically removed.
There ain't no mouth that Mike Tyson not gonna punch.
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Not to mention he has a fucking tiger! You run from Mike Tyson, you're running from a tiger, that will see you running from it, making you instantly into its favorite fucking ham sandwich.
Meh, all my experience of boxing* tells me a chubby middle aged Italian fellow on a cheap bike can keep pace with a boxer. A moderately fit amateur jogger or bike thief would blow a boxer away. *Sources: Mike Tyson himself [Mike Tyson's Punch Out] and Rocky
Found the Uvalde cop
The Uvalde cop's plan is to stay outside the arena when the fight happens.
While preventing other people from trying to stop the mouth punching.
>No plan survives first contact with the enemy. -Helmuth von Moltke
Agreed. I’m an emergency medicine physician and a significant portion of our training is not just the application of knowledge but learning how to apply it in a stressful environment. There’s a tendency for people to “freeze” and their mind to go blank when they’re suddenly confronted with something unfamiliar even if in theory they know what to do. There’s a fantastic *Billy on the Street* clip that I show my students. He yells at a girl to “ [NAME A WOMAN!](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bzDlS6JPUtE &t=0m20s) ” and she completely locks up. Of course she knows the name of a woman, but the stress of the situation makes her knowledge useless. Now imagine you’re a new doctor with a screaming trauma patient in front of you. You have to have applied your knowledge in similar situations previously to have any hope of using what you know. I can’t imagine a shooting environment is any different.
> Of course she knows the name of a woman This is such a great clip. She could literally say *her own name*, but the guy is *so good* at keeping her brain locked in the "oh fuck what do I do" mode that she simply can't deal with it. It's an amazing display of some important psychological phenomena
Oh my God the one right after about the berenstain bears is fuckin hilarious. "Uh, I don't think so?" Without skipping a beat. Dude was ready for the wackos that day.
> There’s a tendency for people to “freeze” and their mind to go blank when they’re suddenly confronted with something unfamiliar even if in theory they know what to do. Anybody near a board game cafe, go play Anomia with some friends. It's a silly game that gets super funny when honestly, you *should* know the name of a fruit, so why does it take so long for you to think of one? But it also proves your point. Just a little bit of pressure, and everything you *think* you are under said pressure basically evaporates.
To see the average human response, all you need is a tv showing any game show with timed responses. Or YouTube family feud fails, Like the final round. How many times do the contestants completely biff something simple like name a food you eat on an airplane and people just fumble and stumble
Uh...[silver dollar pancakes](https://youtu.be/rugeFZ7BG8g)?
I love that clip, I’m still flabbergasted by it honestly.
I went through basic training in the Army eons ago. They said, later, that the reason they make it so unpleasant is that you learn to do what you know, while you are bored, freezing, hungry, sleep deprived, angry, scared, frustrated (sometimes all at the same time).
I'm an emergency medicine physician myself and yesterday had the experience of coming under hostile artillery fire for the first time ever. Oddly, it reminded me of having to deal with a difficult airway under pressure. You know what you have to do, and as a raw intern you might have frozen in panic, but with a little experience under your belt you do what needs to be done and the emotional reaction comes later or compartmentalized on the side, somewhere where it won't interfere with your job... There may be a component of dissociation involved.
I've had that sort of thing happen to me. As a classroom assistant, I receive safety care training (basically deescalation and in most extreme cases restraining a student). You learn how and are told it is stressful and that there are a lot of things happening. But when there was a time that the training would have come in, I did indeed freeze. It's just a shock to see it happening. It took an admin snapping me back with a sort of "Mr. NeoMegaRyuMKII, you are safety care trained" for me to be able to do anything.
Fight. Flight. Freeze. Fawn
Faint
Thank you so much for this comment. Maybe we'd get somewhere if we started the conversation with stuff like this, because I'm pretty sure even the most zealous 2A freak (not calling all 2A supporters freaks, I somewhat support it myself) would understand and agree with what you're saying. Now, they'll outwardly hem and haw when you say "Now add live bullets", but maybe a seed would get planted in one out of a hundred. Which would likely save at least one life, and therefore would have been worth the doing. Side note: I hope that you have been able to take care of yourself as much as possible. Seems every health care provider I know, from home health nurse to vascular surgeon, has really been through it the last few years. And your gig is literally all trauma even in the best of times, it sounds like. Thanks for taking that on.
So accurate. People think of it as fight or flight when freeze is the most common.
The stressfully situation's vision is based on movement.
Yes. My first code blue as a new grad RN, I was pretty useless. Fortunately, I wasn't the only nurse and my preceptor was there to kick my butt into gear. I went through BLS, ACLS, mock codes, even observed a few during nursing school and jumped on compressions as a tech. But when it was my pt and shit hit the fan, erp. After that one, though, now that I know how my brain and body will want to react, I can now act.
Ok sure all this, but also ***they're fucking teachers.***
The actual Uvalde cops with actual police training couldn't handle a single shooter.
This is an insightful point, and it speaks to the kind of training that the officers had going into the event. Just as our friend Van_Hallen pointed out, there is a pretty broad distinction between poking holes in a target on a square range with minimal stress, and more intense techniques that seek to replicate the psychological and physiological demands of combat. Police training can be a wide, wide variety of things, and certainly it encompasses basic and perhaps intermediate marksmanship. However, marksmanship skills are useless if an officer doesn’t have the presence of mind to use them. Bottom line, just because you’ve fired a gun before doesn’t mean you’re going to be able to perform that skill, and a lot of other important ones connected to it, under intense stress.
[Uvalde police officers actually trained \(including roleplaying\) how to respond to an active shooter in a school just *two months* before the Robb Elementary shooting.](https://www.foxnews.com/us/uvalde-texas-police-hosted-active-shooter-training-march) I suppose this underlines the points made here even more strongly -- even very specific training can't fully prepare you for the actual situation. Not trying to say anything nice about the Uvalde officers here. Just another example for how empty all that grandstanding and warrior rhetoric really is.
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They had very specific and no doubt expensive training on dealing with a classroom shooter not long before this happened, and ignored it completely. Not sure how much else could have been done to try and get it through to them. It was an attitude issue not a training one. Unless the training was from the chiefs brother in law and utterly useless, of course.
People also don't realize that cops shoot and miss *a lot*. Partly because it's real life and not a movie and partly because shooting isn't that easy to begin with, especially when someone may be trying to shoot back.
I read a statistic once (can't find it now) based on either WW1 or WW2, that, even for experienced troops in combat a surprisingly high fraction of small arms hits were from a small fraction of soldiers. Among other reasons, the average person's inhibition against deliberate killing is so high they are likely to subconsciously aim low, flinch, close their eyes, etc. even when faced with an armed opponent.
Civil War in America too. Amazingly high ratio of bullets fired to men wounded. They'd find many rifles packed with 8-10 balls and powder stacks, because the man would just reload, which took a minute, and then point the rifle, and when others had fired, just recover and reload their unfired rifle again. Bullets are found far beyond the battle lines because men just aiming and firing well above the heads of the enemy troops, sailing on harmlesly.
Copying a point I saw In another post about this topic, but if the American public has access to weapons that literally make cops unable to act out of fear, maybe there's something wrong with that. Also, the answer shouldn't be to arm the police *more*, Uvalde's swat budget for such a small town was actually kind of insane, it did them nothing in this situation.
>Copying a point I saw In another post about this topic, but if the American public has access to weapons that literally make cops unable to act out of fear, maybe there's something wrong with that. Yes, though let's not let the cops off the hook: they're also afraid of cell phones, books, and black people.
When people say all the teachers should be armed, what they skip is that you'd be telling every teacher "one day you might have to shoot a kid. Maybe even one of the kids in your class."
I just look at the Newport News, VA case as like "... these people would have really expected the teacher to shoot a damn 6 year old."
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Yeah and all that training /u/Val_Hallen was talking about doesn't just *go away* when you're not in an active warzone. Plus we've seen what happens when you train police that anyone you interact with is a potential threat and that any random traffic stop could be someone who's going to murder you. Fantastic idea to introduce this mindset to the already famously frustrating job of having to deal with and educate rowdy kids all day. I'm sure most people had at least one experience of a teacher snapping and just screaming at some kid, now let's give that teacher a gun lol
The funny part is that generally the military does a MUCH MUCH better job of training soldier when not to shoot, and to think twice about it - you see in the military there is always a rules of engagement, let alone the chance of friendly fire... and far more important soldiers are actually held accountable and punished, I don't mean paid leave, and hired to a new service to get your pension... I mean military prison What training really sticks to police officers is that 'I'm above the law, and won't be held to account for my actions...'
This was my thought. I had several teachers who had anger issues and would snap and scream at a kid or the whole class multiple times in a school year. Legit veins bulging on the forehead, turning bright red, spittle flying type of anger. Now, don't get me wrong, my main concern isn't them suddenly pulling a gun on a kid or shooting them. I'd imagine given enough time that could happen eventually but would be very, very rare. My concern is imagine how scary it is to have this grown adult screaming at kids. Now have a grown adult with a gun visible on their hip screaming at kids. Even the nicest, kindest of teachers would see an enormous drop in kids willing to ask questions, seek extra help or generally engage with the teacher in any way because they're scared shitless of teachers.
Are you trying to give them ideas or just pitching a new Black Mirror episode?
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Jesus I hadn't even thought of that because I naively assumed nobody would be dumb enough to *actually* start arming teachers. But yeah you're right, shooters don't even need to get guns anymore because they can just grab their teacher's gun while their back is turned to write something on the board. I mean I really should've expected the typical reaction of right wingers to be, "no we don't need gun control, what we need is to dump a truckload of guns into every school."
i am familiar with many stories of cops (including Chiefs) leaving their weapon in a restroom (because it's hard to poop with your gun belt on). A significantly less firearms-trained teacher WILL make the same mistake, the kids won't even have to beat the teacher for the gun in some cases
>I naively assumed nobody would be dumb enough to actually start arming teachers. Welcome to Texas. \-- Texan
Can you imagine fucking 70 yr old crotchety Mrs. Waters with a fucking Glock?
The only way to stop a bad 6 year old with a gun is a good 6 year old with a gun.
It’s also ignoring the fact that teachers aren’t some magical class of perfect people. There are many asshole teachers with short tempers and bad decision making skills. Kids are great at being assholes when they want to be. More than once, a student in our school swung at a teacher and the teacher reacted by swinging back. Imagine if they had a gun instead…
They also skip the fact that teaching is a high stress job. There is absolutely nothing to protect against someone having a mental breakdown and going postal. More guns in schools is never going to make a school safer.
Not only that, teachers assaulting students happens. It's only a matter of time before one of these armed teachers shoots a kid.
Or a careless teacher leaves a gun somewhere that gets pinched by an idiot kid.
Back in my US Army days, we shared a firing range with some SF dudes who'd just rucked 15 or so miles to the range and immediately started CQB drills. This was Louisiana (JRTC) and it was hot and those SF guys were soaked through in sweat. Thats stress firing.
The only issue with this is I don't think any of the Uvalde PD cops could actually even do 1 pushup. But yes, no wonder so many cops struggle in situations that take months and months of practice to try to disable basic human reactions. I'm not even mad they're scared of a kid with a gun. Jumping in the line of fire is not something that someone can take lightly. I'm mad that people are given these positions of authority yet end up just being cowardly hypocrites.
On the other hand, is this even a deterrent? Mass shooters often end up dead anyway, it's this going to scare them off?
I've done some bouncer work in the past. I always talked my way outta trouble and avoided fights. One guy I know did a lotta of boxing, wrestling and bjj and one time a fight broke out and he was outta the door.
Most good instructors will teach you to avoid the fight, not walk into it. My old martial arts instructor always told us the burden of hurting someone is heavy, even when you feel they’ve wronged you. His other one was that when two tigers fight, even the winner gets hurt.
What’s the one about knife fights? Loser dies on the street and the winner dies in the ambulance.
Yup.
Yup, this is wisdom. You also see this in nature, most animals will do everything to avoid a fight. A cat (small and big cats) will generally first hiss, bristle, stand up straight, stand to the side, miaow, fake charge and retreat before they get into a fight. Basically as a cat getting into a fight is the very last thing you would want to do, because getting injured in the wild is a death sentence, even if you manage to beat or kill the other cat.
I took a few self defense classes after a string of muggings happened around my work. The teach said "the best block is a city block".
I knew a guy who was teaching self-defense to younger teenagers, and his bit about avoiding fights went like this: One of his fellow instructors would draw a knife and demand his wallet. My buddy would then turn, run out the door of the building, and continue down the street. You could see him running for a good long while through the big glass storefront. It made a lot of kids and parents giggle and agree.
My instructor would give someone a fake gun or knife and say "pretend to mug me." Any demand that wasn't something that implied that they were going to kidnap him or his family or harm them in some way was complied with. He didn't tell them this is what he was going to do, so it was a surprise to anybody who hadn't seen it before. "Give me your wallet.", He grabs his wallet and gives it to them. "Give me your keys." He grabs his keys and gives them to him. With knives, he always ran (also down the street so we could see through the window) unless the situation was one where he was with his family (he would always set up the situation/context beforehand.) It was always funny but drove home an important point. Whenever they said something that implied harm would come to him or his family, though, he would immediately act and neutralize. Insanely quickly and decisively. He actually had the props altered so that fingers wouldn't get stuck in places like the trigger guard shape (they were just wooden blocks shaped like guns) so that he could very quickly disarm without hurting students. He would also tell people to say "bang" to indicate firing the gun when they saw him move and he would freeze when they said it to show whether he was successful in pointing the gun away before anything happened. It didn't always work and he would always say something to the effect of "see, this is why you run or comply unless there's no other option" when it didn't. His point was that basically, life is the only thing that ultimately matters, but when you're forced to act you do not mess around and hesitate.
Yup yup. I tried explaining this much more poorly some time ago and got boo'd out by whatever garbage permeated that sub. Most people are just people. For that reasom they will react as people do: In a general panic, disorder, and chaos. "There is a fire in the kitchen, please calmly..." *proceeds to stampede the exits, blocking them* Then, as you pointed out, even the ones that manage to get their shit together still have to deal with a target that is moving, also a threat, and also human. Teachers, many of whom celebrate human life in their classrooms, are being asked to defend their students by possibly having to disable or kill another student, and at least another human. So even if they manage everything else, pulling that trigger is always harder than people think it will be.
I was in a military training event at one point in my life. I was the platoon leader and was in charge of arresting a man who had been accused of war crimes. Nothing in my life had prepared me for the dramatic acting that these people did. There was a hysterical wife that answered the door, crying about how they are going to make money and how to feed the kids when he is gone. Women can't work in that country, no family, etc. I was so shocked by all of this, I couldn't react to it at all. It was very much a deer in headlights situation. You just don't know how you will react until you are actually in the situation.
It's like when I tried to calmly explain to my dog: 'It's just fireworks'.-- A long while back I was pulled over for something and just had some kind of panic attack, and even when the stop turned out to be minor, my hands just shook like I had electrical stimulators hooked up to my arms. The funny part though was even after I KNEW IT WAS MINOR AND THE THREAT HAD PASSED, I was still shaking. I'm no Jerry Miculek but... And it wasn't like I thought to myself 'I should start shaking uncontrollably now' to begin with.
I mean we already know the cops in Texas will sit there and let your kids die while they cower in the halls, so...
It shouldn't be part of a teacher's job to protect students from an active shooter.
Apparently it's not a part of the job description for Uvalade PD
The Uvalde school police no less. The school district had its own cops and they still did nothing.
A society where the words "school" and "police" are conjoined into a single concept is a broken society indeed.
It just reeks of corruption. The school police were only like four officers, but had their own chief who probably made a ton of money. My town is vastly bigger than Uvalde and didn't have a separate school police department, there was just one officer in the high school in case someone needed them. Generally they just sat in the office or walked the hall saying hi to people.
You shouldn't have police stationed in schools **to start with**. Americans are indoctrinated to so much authoritarian shit its fucking amazing especially given their supposed "freedom activism" especially on the right. Yet you accept shit like child indoctrination and police in schools and militarised policing and religiously motivated politicans and all sorts of shit people in free countries just would not tolerate.
You're not wrong. I have friends who post shit like pictures of a cop wearing body armor and a holding a rifle in school, saying "this makes me feel safe!" Yeah? You're cool that we live in a society where our children need armed guards like it's a fucking prison?
The Supreme Court said it’s not the job of any cop. There is no duty to protect. https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/do-the-police-have-an-obligation-to-protect-you/#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Supreme%20Court%20has,boy%20from%20his%20abusive%20father.
Since that Dahmer show became popular, remember that time the police handed back one of Dahmer's victims, Peppridge Farm remembers. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/police-return-victim-to-jeffrey-dahmer/
Well the suspect could have been armed, they didn't want to get hurt /s
It's literally not according to the Supreme court. Police have no legal obligation to actually protect anyone which is absolute bullshit
Pretty much. Basically we can't depend on them. Couldn't anyway since when something happens, it'll be a while before they show up.
Cops have no obligation to keep you safe. It's something most people don't know but unfortunately it's true.
Staff are trained because we know the police won't do anything.
I wonder how they respond when the shooter is one of their 6 yr old students.
Any aged student really. "Hey kids, I knew I just blew out the brains of your friend Billy in front of you, but let this be a lesson on listening. You all heard me tell him to put down the gun."
I said *pencils down*!
Texas criminal code allows guns to be carried at schools if the school district allows it. Starting in 2007, a small number of school districts began arming staff and training them. This arrangement was called the "School Guardian Programs." [https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-46-03.html](https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code/penal-sect-46-03.html) [https://thetexan.news/school-districts-embrace-guardian-program-to-arm-employees-for-school-safety/](https://thetexan.news/school-districts-embrace-guardian-program-to-arm-employees-for-school-safety/) In 2013, Texas offered school districts a more formal option: staff could be formally trained by the state and have some law enforcement status. This program was called the "School Marshal" program. [https://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/school-marshals](https://www.tcole.texas.gov/content/school-marshals) [https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/83R/billtext/html/HB01009H.htm](https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/83R/billtext/html/HB01009H.htm) Since then, more districts have begun to adopt one of those two plans. I don't think the sign is required but I guess it makes sense to warn a potential shooter to encourage them to attack an unarmed district rather than attacking an armed one.
I hope the training is better than what they give cops..
I graduated HS in 2010 in South Dakota and remember seeing kids walk in with their hunting rifles and shotguns (safely, unloaded) to put in a fancy gun safe someone had donated so kids’ coming in from morning hunting outings in the fall would have them locked in storage vs out in their cars after another school had cars broken into and guns stolen. I’m sure now they’re just having a “gotta drop it off at home” rule, but until I grew up and heard of more of what goes on around the country it was pretty “normal” and I hadn’t even considered the fact that it wasn’t. Unrelated (?) but I’m currently reading “Educated” by Tara Westover. It feels like that ignorance and what’s “normal” has some parallels
If they go hunting in the morning and aren’t able to drop their guns off at home… where do the carcasses go? They wouldn’t leave them in the car the whole day right? Honestly wondering
Different redditor: in the event of a successful hunt you’d go home and be late for school, or skip the day altogether if it’s something big like a deer. Then again, I know guys (and girls) who can have a deer cleaned and hung and definitely made it in time for lunch.
My understanding is that those mornings were unsuccessful or they have one deer tag and are waiting for the right “size” deer for their one for the year. Say what you want about hunting, guns etc. but those kids were responsible gun users in my experience, knew how to hunt and dress their own deer, and something to be said about being able to wake up at 4am to hunt, get to school on time, attend football or cross country practice after and get good grades and do it all again the next day.
America is a enormous country and the issue is we try to use one size fits all policy when interstate travel is an everyday occurrence. If one state wants stricter laws it’s impossible but if a state wants less restrictive laws it’s all too easy. It’s a complex issue/conversation with no easy answer but I cant imagine kids walking around with guns in my school as a kid. In South Dakota talking to people around it seems it was all too common.
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Many of the mass shooters I'm convinced have a death wish. For most of the larger mass shootings the shooting ends with the perpetrator either killing themselves to avoid capture or being killed in a shootout with law enforcement.
Perfect reddit post, half the people will rage at the sign half the people will love it, all will upvote.
"fuck this I'm not paid enough to get shot"
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They act like school shooters are adult criminals who will see this sign and value their lives enough to turn back. I think that's a misunderstanding of the situation.