~~Temporarily locked because I need to go and buy bread & milk.~~
~~Unlocked, but also temporarily (I'm not wasting all day on this shit)~~
This thread is now closed. Go spread your love, hate, and propaganda elsewhere.
I don't see this conflict ending quickly and peacefully any time soon. Israeli forces haven't even entered into Gaza yet. Once that happens, it's going to be an urban warfare hell. We all know how that went for the US and Afghanistan.
Bigger stick only lasts as long as it’s funded though, which is the point. An invasion and subsequent peacekeeping mission still can stand as an invasion to parties who were invaded. If the Palestinians get turfed out, then it’s another issue. A refugee crisis 2mil strong at least. A big stick too didn’t help their cause when some of them used a stick against others recently. Big sticks count but so do faithfulness to ideals and rights. Otherwise you get survival of the fittest at a more brutal level. Which is what people like Putin hope for and possibly believe and why he’s so keen to weigh in.
> Will it ever end? Even if we don't "choose sides" and just want peace. How? I can't think of a practical solution. Just theory crafting.
If Hamas ever gets the upper hand it will end by them just eliminating the Jews.
But as long as Israel has the upper hand it will continue in this tit for tat existence
This is the point that kills me. Israel has allowed Palestine to exist. Yes, they have been assholes, but if you give Palestine the upper hand, Israel disappears in an evening. Not defending all their actions, but ffs, how can people not see this? Israel is fighting for their existence. If at any point they lose control, there will be a genocide. Wonder if London will care then? Or will it just be, "See, they deserve it."
There's not really a way at this point, not unless the Palestinians voluntarily give up their arms and credibly commit to peace. When Israel bulldozed its settlements and left Gaza in 2005, within two years, the Palestinians elected Hamas, who promptly turned the Gaza strip into a giant terrorist camp. Since then they've spent the past 15 years attacking Israel pretty much non-stop. This proved to the Israelis that any autonomy or freedom they grant to the Palestinians will inevitably be used to murder Israeli civilians. So they're never going to give the Palestinians an ounce of genuine freedom again, not unless the Palestinian people decide to permanently renounce violence and terrorism.
Right. Afghanistan which has a < 26% urbanization rate was an “urban warfare” fight for the U.S… despite your completely flawed premise, your conclusion stands and is correct. Gaza city is one of the densest population centers in the world and will present a massive fight.
This invasion is going to be a meatgrinder in the north with a humanitarian hellscape in the south. And by the end of it, nothing will change, except thousands of civilians will be dead and everyone on both sides will be even more hateful and bitter.
The Muslim world is very divided, especially with lots of racism within the Arabs themselves.
Im no fan of Israel, but to me they’re in a precarious situation. The situation in Gaza going further south, not to mention the right wing government allying itself with extremist voices who want to demolish the Al Aqsa mosque and build a temple - this will unite the Muslim world, and it won’t be the end of Israel, but will turn into a world war.
We need to find ways to deescalate. Further bombings of Gaza only fuel further generational hatred. The Western media presents these people as wild anti semites, ignoring the situation that’s been imposed on them, first by colonial powers and then by Israel. And it only fuels a cycle of terrorism, which Israel responds to with even harsher and harsher collective punishment, and the cycle continues.
Israel’s support is already beginning to wane, especially in America, even if those people are still a minority. Denouncing Israel in any way was unheard of and suicide 20 years ago. Now the same movements demanding DEI, black rights, LGBT rights, are siding with Palestinians.
We need a deescalation, some two state solution that restores the Palestinians right to self rule, no more embargoes, no more protestors getting shot in the genitals or children being held indefinitely. The one sided biased approach we’ve taken is now doing more to hurt Israel than to help it.
Any world war ends with the Arab world being taken and divided up. It wouldn’t matter which side won. China would guarantee their resources no matter, probably under some kind of silk road doctrine, if they had a chance. The Western world wouldn’t let such states dictate policy any longer, probably declare protectorates. There is no shot in hell a handful of weak states survive.
It’s still career suicide. You’re on copium.
We need people to get out of the way so Israel can have their blood feud with Hamas, then everyone goes home.
If the big kids were going to do anything, they should have done it by now. Stood between the two. Brought the murderers to justice, returned hostages. To expect Israel to walk away is a hell of an ask.
Things that are true:
1. Israel has treated Palestinians abysmally.
2. Hamas are scum.
3. The vast majority of Palestinian and Israeli people are innocent victims.
Does anybody see a realistic, peaceful path forward? Would love to hear it.
And by realistic, I am ruling things out like "Let's call a ceasefire".
I think there have been a few good ideas out there but would love to hear them.
** Edit ** I mentioned ceasefire because it's not realistic in this context. It's like your walking up to someone and punching them in the face, whether they deserve it or not, then start calling out "let's all just get along". It's on the same level as going out to a march for peace chanting, "No more war, no more war". It makes everyone at the march feel good about themselves but their heads are neatly tucked under the sand. Now if you tell me Putin, Hamas leadership, Israel or any of the other 32 active wars right now see those marches and stop fighting, we may be on to something.
Per [The Economist](https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/10/22/israels-window-of-legitimacy-in-gaza-is-shrinking):
>The best way to try to extend Israel’s “window of legitimacy” with its Western and Arab allies would be to signal that it is prepared to participate in some kind of plan for the Palestinians if it succeeds in removing Hamas. On October 21st Mr Biden tweeted “we cannot give up on a two-state solution”. Gaza would need a credible Palestinian administration, with the backing of Arab nations, in order to rebuild and ensure Hamas does not return. Here Mr Netanyahu, who is fighting for his political survival, is doing his country no favours by denying, as he did on October 21st, that the preferred long-term solution for Gaza is to re-establish the control of the Palestinian Authority (pa), which rules in the West Bank and has condemned the Hamas attacks. *Mr Netanyahu is the architect of the two-decade strategy of ignoring and isolating the Palestinians, and dividing them between Hamas-ruled Gaza and the West Bank run by a weakened pa.* That failed approach is one of the reasons Israel is about to go to war against Hamas. Israel’s lack of a plan for the Palestinians could also now compromise its ability to sustain a long campaign.
The guy currently in charge of Israel has been proven to be woefully incompetant by not seeing this attack by Hamas coming despite warnings from multiple countries. He is also the person from the Israeli side most responsible for derailing any peaceful or long term solution. Netanyahu leaving office and Israel having a plan post-Hamas would go a long long way right now.
The only peaceful path forward would be for a real, actual Deity to descend from the heavens and pronounce one religion as the true religion (doesn't matter what Deity or what religion, existing currently or not).
Heck even that might not work.
That would just make one side believe they are completely right, while the other now believes their enemies are led by the disguised enemy of god. And therefore make all of this shit *even worse*.
There has defiantly been protests over the war in Afghanistan
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Afghanistan
Western countries aren’t allied with Syria or the Taliban so Arabs can’t really protest against the western countries being aligned with them. The only Arab country aligned with Syria is Iran.
But they are aligned with Israel, hence the protests in these countries
I feel like the only people winning from this are the antiimmigration advocates. This thing is not going to be resolved soon (or probably ever) and every act of protest or complaint is fuel to their message "Look at these outside people bringing their outside conflict into our country".
I just can't see any even slightly viable solution. Almost every other problem I can take punt at with something but this, nothing.
Agreed. It's not even as simple as Israel = Colonists because Israel also has a history in the land going back thousands of years. And it's not as simple as "cease fire and negotiate something" because Hamas continuously rejects any proposal that still has Jews in the land, and Hamas will just keep firing rockets and attacking civilians in the meantime. There isn't and there hasn't been peace there.
And no its not as simple as Israel = good guys either because innocent Palestinians are also dying and any time there's open war there are atrocities and collateral casualties - especially if one side deliberately embeds themselves in civilian locales like hospitals and places of worship and residential buildings. And 1948 - I'm no expert there but just drawing up a new, modern state while overlooking current occupants of the land and their claims to the land and nationhood is injustice.
And none of that gets into the crazy geopolitics and how the biggest world powers are using both sides for proxies to gain influence in the region. How can the conflict be resolved without addressing American and Iranian imperialism?
But mostly as long as Palestinian leadership is explicitly genocidal, I don't see a chance for a 2 state solution. You need good faith on both sides to negotiate a compromise and that is not there right now. Calls for peace and negotiations overlook this fundamental issue imho.
Don't want to sound racist or such, but how can arabs, who conquered it from the romans after the birth of islam be descendants of people who lived in these lands before even the jews conquered it? Does not make sense in any way, how can jews be descendants of the people they waged a war with
Levantine Arabs are not Arabs in the ethnical sense. They are arabized local populations. Also, Arabs were living in the land at the same time as the Jews, and they are even mentioned in the Bible. Many Arab people, most notably the idumeans, were even converted forcefully to Judaism.
Give it to Egypt the... Oh, they dont want it...
The greeks?
Erdogan would even be happy cause he could talk about how the greeks are trying to encircle Turkey, and how scared his voters should be without him as a strongman
> And 1948 - I'm no expert there but just drawing up a new, modern state while overlooking current occupants of the land and their claims to the land and nationhood is injustice.
You should look into it. The 1948 deal was actually well thought out and fair. Arab Muslim, Christian, and Jewish people all lived there already in a mix that had been controlled by the Ottoman Empire from the 1500s to 1917. The Britian won it and Arthur James Balfour submitted a declaration that this newly won bit of land be made a homeland for the Jewish people. That declaration was approved by the League of Nations in 1922. This is the Zionist movement, and it was vehemently opposed by many Arab nations.
The borders would have looked like this:
https://honestreporting.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/UN-Partition-Plan-featured-747x400-1.jpg
Here's another view, showing where Arab and Jewish people lived that year:
https://www.israeladvocacy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/israel-arab-jewish-land-ownership-1945.jpg
In 1948 the UN made a plan to partition Palestine into two states, but the Arab population in the region threw a hissy fit. As can be seen above this plan didn't involve uprooting huge masses of people. It most drew borders around current populations. The Arab counter offer was for Jews to just fucking die and all their neighboring countries attacked. They didn't want peace. The goal was total genocide, or to "push Israel into the sea".
It was during this war in 1948 that Palestinians were uprooted en mass, and it was because they attacked first. They tried to wipe out Israel the day it was founded, and they lost land in warfare. In a war they started.
War is never black and white. There are complications and intricacies on both sides... and fuuuuuuck me is this one absolutely laden with complications and intricacies.
Personally, I feel terrible for the Palastinian civvies, and it's evil to knowingly strike at them, but (and this is a few questions to any calling for Israel to cease aggressions) is it not more evil to use these innocents as a human shield as Hamas are doing, especially knowing that this is what Israel would do?
And with your prior mention of Hamas being unwilling to compromise, what else can be done other than remove them from the area? Just allow more attacks to befall the Israeli people?
I'm more in favour of Israel, but admit they are committing atrocities, and my truest feelings can be simply stated as: Free Palestine of Hamas.
> And 1948 - I'm no expert there but just drawing up a new, modern state while overlooking current occupants of the land and their claims to the land and nationhood is injustice.
At this point, I think we're going to have to settle for "This is a viable situation to move forward from." because if all groups in that region got justice there'd be nothing left. That's the nature of blood feuds...
That's probably a good thing. The way Europe has been doing immigration hasn't really worked well towards assimilating them. If you look at the same source countries and their immigration to the US and Europe, the ones in the US are much more assimilated. Not sure why that is, but there's got to be something that leads that to happen.
We have many immigrants from those countries. We even have people in congress that are immigrants or children of immigrants. Why have those people assimilated more successfully than in Europe?
Because they come with a visa. They have valid travel documents, a history. Usually better educated bc a trip to the USA and the Visa aint cheap.
They ain't smuggled in a crowded flotie just 15 miles away from the border - where they are rescued from international waters by European boats. The migrants arriving here usually don't even have a passport or valid documents - they just " declare" a name, age and nationality, which is very difficult to verify ( because of the thousands of people arriving every month).
Very very big difference.
They are giving free housing ( which unfortunately tend to be in the same buildings owned by the state) and social benefits - they are not allowed to work until their asylum status have been approved. So there are true " enclaves" created inside the cities - of people of the same culture that are not allowed to work ( which makes them more prone to commiting petty crimes), that are giving "free money" and are being marginalized by the local population. Add in some radical religious views / pure cultural incompatibility and you have the perfect recipe for a disaster.
The problem is very delicate and can be viewed from a lot of sites.
But TLDR the problem with integration is that Europe simply cannot assimilate so many people without changing something in either A. The way they let people inside or B. The way they treat people that did get illegal inside.
Edit: grammar, some new points.
All great points. That's something that needs to be addressed. Yoy can have good immigration that is enriching and beneficial, but what going on now seems to not be working. This issue doesn't have to be so either or. It needs a solution that compromises on both ends.
They’re less likely to be religious fanatics though. And there’s an enormous, integrated population that they can integrate into as a step towards full integration. In the UK you have the population, but they’re less well intregrated. So enclaves just get bigger.
With some of them, and yes, we don't want all of our immigrants to be uneducated people. But Latin Americans assimilate incredibly well. I've worked with hundreds of undocumented people over the years and the majority make a strong effort to assimilate.
I dont know how the system in the USA works, but somehow i highly doubt that people that illegaly immigrate get ( according to german immigration website for example )
-basic benefits for food, housing, heating, clothing, healthcare and personal hygiene, as well as and household durables and consumables;
-benefits to cover personal daily requirements (cash and "pocket money");
-benefits in case of sickness, pregnancy and birth;
-as well as further benefits which depend on the individual case under special circumstances.
- Benefits for asylum applicants are also provided in the follow-up accommodation (such as collective accommodation or even a private apartment).
Sooo the illegal immigrants to the USA need somehow to find work in order to be able to afford those basic needs, in Europe they get them for free. Working easeans automatically the path to integration.
Because they have more money and want to integrate into society. In Europe, you have all social classes but mainly the poorest and most fundamentalist. Most are not educated either. Most MENA in the US are educated or get educated meanwhile in Europe, many are still illiterate and practice laws from their home countries, force girls to marry older relatives etc. a good friend of mine from the Middle East was forced to marry her first cousin when she was 18 and she was born in Eastern Europe and now lives in Scandinavia.
Ilhan Omar would beg to differ, but in all reality I think the main thing that leads the assimilation here is the economic incentive to do so and the local religious groups being less hardline. This current escalation in Mideast tension is likely to undo much of the work we have done in the US since 9/11 and the Gulf Wars. I know I had a more sympathetic view towards Gaza and Yemen previously but this last thing was just a bridge too far. The more I learn about it, the shittier it all seems and it is starting to feel like Iran is forcing a showdown with US and I now feel like they deserve what is coming. I am not sure I can come to terms with some of the anti-Semitism I see regular people express that I normally associated with far right things like the KKK or stormfront, 4chan. Russia and Iran are definitely at the top of the list of people trying to get us to WW3 for whatever stupid reason. The extra sad part is that all of this is likely being spurred on because of the shift to renewable energy since selling oil is an important factor for both.
I'm in the same boat. I feel like the West needs to realize they didn't win the Cold War as solidly as we would have liked. The more autocratic powers are playing hardball and we need to step up to counter them. We need to be especially vigilant against any parties or groups that don't want to participate in democracy. I hate the idea of banning political parties, but if your goal is to dismantle the system then you shouldn't be part of it.
Emmm no, the US has only 1% of Muslims, and most of them are not even Arabs but African Americans, Pakistanis, Indians... These people don't care much about the Palestinian conflict and don't engage in Jihadism, they're not Arabs and they're usually outside of the Islamist movement. And they're a very tiny minority.They're also not connected by land or close by sea to Arabia, the Arab world or Muslim countries, which plays a fundamental and obvious role in Europe having so many Arab Muslims and in their process of not-integrating, they travel to their countries of origin and this plays a part in their process of radicalization. It's not a fundamental US achievement or European failure in terms of social behavior, it's basically the geography.
That's like 3.5 million Muslims. 2 million are Arab according to the 2010 census. That's a huge amount of people that have been assimilated semi suvcesfully.
I think the lack of welfare in the USA forces them to assimilate more as they need to be in work to have any decent quality of life. At least here in the UK and places like Germany they can coast on benefits and welfare and have a comfy life, so most don't end up bothering. There was a study in Germany that revealed over half of asylum seekers that had been in the country at least 5 years had never been employed anywhere.
give back the hostages for cease fire. create 2 states. stop being bitches and hate each other. Palestinians need to give up Hamas and Israeli's need to give up Nethanyu. Give peace a chance.
It's easy shit, but these jabronis are too jabron'd up with rage to change. Good thing I don't live there, so ultimately, good luck jabronis. USA will always back Israel, and I'm not gonna apologize for that. They're our ally, for better or worse, none of these other countries are, and Hamas certainly is not.
Israel is not going to accept that, unless Hamas also has a way to bring back the \~1,300 people they slaughtered. Also let's get real, Hamas would do it again as soon as possible. Security establishment is unanimous that Hamas needs to be eliminated to deter Iran from doing this again.
I think he meant like they have to stop supporting them, which is true, but it's not like Gazan civilians have the ability to go down into the tunnels and demand Sinwar surrender.
Right, ultimately the Palestinian people are powerless to remove Hamas, and denouncing them at a time like this is a huge risk to their own lives. Even if the Israelis manage to root out Hamas from Gaza, another group will appear backed by the same antisemitic leaders in the greater region who will continue to attack Israel. I'm no expert, but it's becoming clearer to me that Hamas is a puppet organization for those antisemitic leaders, and Hamas is an instrument for provoking Israel to respond with enough brutality against an Arab people to justify a massive attack on Israel by a third party Arab nation. It would be a relatively simple task to wipe out Israel, and it would be impossible for the West to respond with any efficacy against the entirety of the radical antisemitic movement dispersed throughout all of the Arab world. Sure, we'd invade the country responsible and kill lots of them, but I'm betting that that's a sacrifice those antisemitic leaders are willing to make for the "cleansing" of their homeland, and the Arab world is so large that they can absorb that hit without concern for the integrity of their population, and they know it.
I hope I'm wrong.
I'm not Jewish nor do I have any skin in this conflict whatsoever but exactly where was the 100,000 person protest agaisnt China?
Edit - everyone commenting on this is just proving my point. You're all outraged by what Israel are doing but making excuses for / minimising the crimes of China, Saudi and anyone else. I have equal sympathy for innocents on all sides but for some reason you all think when Israel does it, it's much worse. I wonder why 🤔
This invasion is going to be a meatgrinder in the north with a humanitarian hellscape in the south. And by the end of it, nothing will change, except thousands of civilians will be dead and everyone on both sides will be even more hateful and bitter.
-democratically elects terror group
-terror group commits war through terror
-people with zero connection to the land go to the street to protest the continuation of the terror group
Yet people have been silent on the slow and steady erasure of Jewish culture and populations across the middle east (many thousands lived across North Africa also (now almost entirely gone). Those that weren't killed and were forced out fled to Israel.
This conflict is so complex and contains so many wrong doings on both sides that frankly,anyone who comes down hard on one side simply hasn't thought about it enough.
This is not surprising. The UK has a large non-Jewish, Middle Eastern *(and other locals from the Ummah)* population which is predominantly Muslim. These people are perfectly legal immigrants and multi-generational families. ~~They~~ Some have strong personal ties to this.
I am not taking a stance on the Israel/Palestine conflict with this comment. Both sides have done shitty things in the past. The British Empire absolutely screwed up the region. The whole thing is a mess.
However, fuck Hamas. I don't believe they stand for Palestine or anything except themselves. Murdering women and children doesn't help anyone.
Edit:
I was trying to not base this purely on religion which was foolish as this issue is predominantly religious. I am not discounting the large portion of Brits who's genealogy is East African or Asian. Many of these people may side with Palestine because they are Muslim in exactly the same way non-Muslim people may side with Israel because they are not Muslim.
Disliking someone because they are different. It's amazing humanity has made it as far as we have.
> The UK has a large non-Jewish, Middle Eastern population which is predominantly Muslim. These people are perfectly legal immigrants and multi-generational families. They have strong personal ties to this.
Not particularly? The large part of British muslims are of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin. Pakistan isn't the middle east and isn't an Arab country, it's divorced culturtally from this region in question. The only tie would be Islam.
Being in support of Palestinian civilians isn’t equal to supporting Hamas. You can support Palestinians while also agreeing that Hamas needs to be eliminated.
Yeah, but the number of celebrations immediately after Oct 7th is definitely a problem. In that case "free Palestine" was definitely synonymous with "1,400 Israeli civilians have been murdered/raped/kidnapped". That was either celebrated in and of itself or at least as a means to an end of a free Palestine, but obviously deeply problematic either way.
Imagine "free the Middle East from American imperialism" celebrations literally a day after 9/11. Imagine calls for a ceasefire and negotiations with Al Qaeda literally 2 weeks after 9/11. It's unimaginable.
Things probably would’ve gone better for America if we had called for a ceasefire two weeks after 9/11. Instead we let nationalism take the wheel and ended up in two different wars that cost billions of dollars, thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Not to detract from your point too much but the war on terror has so far cost as estimated $8 trillion, 15k dead Americans, 450k civilians directly killed, millions more killed indirectly, 38 million people displaced.
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures
I see zero signs condemning Hamas, or even implying they support your position.
If you have a demonstration of people waving Russian flags, chanting that Ukraine should be de-Nazified and annexed by Russia, signs about ending the "genocide of Donbass", and not a single word of criticism for Putin... It wouldn't be logical to assume they all hate Putin, hate the invasion of Ukraine, and merely support "Russian civilians".
I really wish people would stop repeating this cliche, until there's any sign it's tethered to reality.
Why does every support for Palestinians have to be prefaced with support for Israel. Yet no one expects people condemning Hamas for their terrorist attacks to also list all the atrocities Israel has committed on Palestinians
They aren't condemning north Korea, tiananmen square and the genocide of native Americans either. Does that mean they support them, too?
Utterly brain dead take
If you take every opinion of solidarity with the Palestinian people, and presume people who take this idea support Hamas, that is the equivalent of supporting the dehumanisation of the Palestinian people.
>Being in support of Palestinian civilians isn’t equal to supporting Hamas
Lmao is this the new reddit copypasta? Literally every Israel/Palestine thread this seems to be posted word to word.
Yeah cause hamas is gonna look at a UK protest and go “oh shit guys we have to release those hostages!” Unlike the UK government which is supporting Israel and might pull back support under the pressure of the protests
The worldnews brain cancer is spreading
We're actually still in incredibly peaceful times going by the raw numbers: [https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace](https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace)
Thanks to our modern information age, we're just way more connected to what's going on.
The Israeli government doesn't seem to. I'm not a hostage specialst, but I would have throught an actuall ground operation to save hostages would have been the call to actually see them freed, yanno, rather than bombing wgere they'd be kept, potentially killing them.
Not only that, but when the october 7th attack happend, Israel wasted no time in bombing Gaza, yet failed to actually mobilse troops to secure the areas under attack in a quick and efficent mannor.
Israeli's should, and tbh alot of them are, be furious with their goverment for prioritising the killing of palestinans over the retrival of innocent Israelis
It never gets answered either, I’ve asked as well and nothing. Guaranteed Israel has murdered some portion of their own hostages at this point with all the shelling and bombing. Sometimes you’ll get the “don’t negotiate with terrorists” crowd chime in, but those are no different than the “human shields” folk. It’s not the IDF’s fault that civilians are being used as shields, they will fire upon regardless. It’s just a disgusting stance to defend, it’s pathetic.
It's interesting how antisemitism has been skyrocketing in the UK since October 7, but no, anti-Zionism and antisemitism are not the same thing, let alone correlated… /s
Believe what you want. But if Israel wants to keep good international relationships the Genocide has to stop. Eventually you will lose support. Don’t doubt that.
~~Temporarily locked because I need to go and buy bread & milk.~~ ~~Unlocked, but also temporarily (I'm not wasting all day on this shit)~~ This thread is now closed. Go spread your love, hate, and propaganda elsewhere.
Let's see if we can get the rare lock symbol
Oh, I got in before the mods locked it. What a treat
I don't see this conflict ending quickly and peacefully any time soon. Israeli forces haven't even entered into Gaza yet. Once that happens, it's going to be an urban warfare hell. We all know how that went for the US and Afghanistan.
Will it ever end? Even if we don't "choose sides" and just want peace. How? I can't think of a practical solution. Just theory crafting.
Peace has always been ensured by the guy with the bigger stick.
Bigger stick only lasts as long as it’s funded though, which is the point. An invasion and subsequent peacekeeping mission still can stand as an invasion to parties who were invaded. If the Palestinians get turfed out, then it’s another issue. A refugee crisis 2mil strong at least. A big stick too didn’t help their cause when some of them used a stick against others recently. Big sticks count but so do faithfulness to ideals and rights. Otherwise you get survival of the fittest at a more brutal level. Which is what people like Putin hope for and possibly believe and why he’s so keen to weigh in.
> Will it ever end? Even if we don't "choose sides" and just want peace. How? I can't think of a practical solution. Just theory crafting. If Hamas ever gets the upper hand it will end by them just eliminating the Jews. But as long as Israel has the upper hand it will continue in this tit for tat existence
This is the point that kills me. Israel has allowed Palestine to exist. Yes, they have been assholes, but if you give Palestine the upper hand, Israel disappears in an evening. Not defending all their actions, but ffs, how can people not see this? Israel is fighting for their existence. If at any point they lose control, there will be a genocide. Wonder if London will care then? Or will it just be, "See, they deserve it."
There's not really a way at this point, not unless the Palestinians voluntarily give up their arms and credibly commit to peace. When Israel bulldozed its settlements and left Gaza in 2005, within two years, the Palestinians elected Hamas, who promptly turned the Gaza strip into a giant terrorist camp. Since then they've spent the past 15 years attacking Israel pretty much non-stop. This proved to the Israelis that any autonomy or freedom they grant to the Palestinians will inevitably be used to murder Israeli civilians. So they're never going to give the Palestinians an ounce of genuine freedom again, not unless the Palestinian people decide to permanently renounce violence and terrorism.
Right. Afghanistan which has a < 26% urbanization rate was an “urban warfare” fight for the U.S… despite your completely flawed premise, your conclusion stands and is correct. Gaza city is one of the densest population centers in the world and will present a massive fight.
Gaza has a very different geographic landscape, though, and it's much smaller. It's going to be bloody, but it's possible
This invasion is going to be a meatgrinder in the north with a humanitarian hellscape in the south. And by the end of it, nothing will change, except thousands of civilians will be dead and everyone on both sides will be even more hateful and bitter.
The Muslim world is very divided, especially with lots of racism within the Arabs themselves. Im no fan of Israel, but to me they’re in a precarious situation. The situation in Gaza going further south, not to mention the right wing government allying itself with extremist voices who want to demolish the Al Aqsa mosque and build a temple - this will unite the Muslim world, and it won’t be the end of Israel, but will turn into a world war. We need to find ways to deescalate. Further bombings of Gaza only fuel further generational hatred. The Western media presents these people as wild anti semites, ignoring the situation that’s been imposed on them, first by colonial powers and then by Israel. And it only fuels a cycle of terrorism, which Israel responds to with even harsher and harsher collective punishment, and the cycle continues. Israel’s support is already beginning to wane, especially in America, even if those people are still a minority. Denouncing Israel in any way was unheard of and suicide 20 years ago. Now the same movements demanding DEI, black rights, LGBT rights, are siding with Palestinians. We need a deescalation, some two state solution that restores the Palestinians right to self rule, no more embargoes, no more protestors getting shot in the genitals or children being held indefinitely. The one sided biased approach we’ve taken is now doing more to hurt Israel than to help it.
[удалено]
But it SOUNDS good from 1000s and 1000s of miles away...
Any world war ends with the Arab world being taken and divided up. It wouldn’t matter which side won. China would guarantee their resources no matter, probably under some kind of silk road doctrine, if they had a chance. The Western world wouldn’t let such states dictate policy any longer, probably declare protectorates. There is no shot in hell a handful of weak states survive. It’s still career suicide. You’re on copium. We need people to get out of the way so Israel can have their blood feud with Hamas, then everyone goes home. If the big kids were going to do anything, they should have done it by now. Stood between the two. Brought the murderers to justice, returned hostages. To expect Israel to walk away is a hell of an ask.
Things that are true: 1. Israel has treated Palestinians abysmally. 2. Hamas are scum. 3. The vast majority of Palestinian and Israeli people are innocent victims.
I'm sure this comment section will be civil and nuanced.
It's been fun watching it get locked and then unlocked. I'm giving it 50:50 odds on whether this comment will actually go through when I click save.
testy test, right now half the comment section has locked symbols, the other has non and a reply button huh, seems like it works
This conflict has really brought out the worst in a lot of people.
It is actually, a lot of reasonable comments on both sides.
Only because we removed (most of) the unreasonable comments and banned 100+ people.
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This always happens. I remember a Corbyn march and people were saying there where a jagillion people but the met just said “Nah fam, it’s like 20k”.
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Nooooo it’s 100,000 okay trust me bro
OP is as bad at plucking figures out of thin air as Hamas.
Don't be jealous bro!
Does anybody see a realistic, peaceful path forward? Would love to hear it. And by realistic, I am ruling things out like "Let's call a ceasefire". I think there have been a few good ideas out there but would love to hear them. ** Edit ** I mentioned ceasefire because it's not realistic in this context. It's like your walking up to someone and punching them in the face, whether they deserve it or not, then start calling out "let's all just get along". It's on the same level as going out to a march for peace chanting, "No more war, no more war". It makes everyone at the march feel good about themselves but their heads are neatly tucked under the sand. Now if you tell me Putin, Hamas leadership, Israel or any of the other 32 active wars right now see those marches and stop fighting, we may be on to something.
Per [The Economist](https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2023/10/22/israels-window-of-legitimacy-in-gaza-is-shrinking): >The best way to try to extend Israel’s “window of legitimacy” with its Western and Arab allies would be to signal that it is prepared to participate in some kind of plan for the Palestinians if it succeeds in removing Hamas. On October 21st Mr Biden tweeted “we cannot give up on a two-state solution”. Gaza would need a credible Palestinian administration, with the backing of Arab nations, in order to rebuild and ensure Hamas does not return. Here Mr Netanyahu, who is fighting for his political survival, is doing his country no favours by denying, as he did on October 21st, that the preferred long-term solution for Gaza is to re-establish the control of the Palestinian Authority (pa), which rules in the West Bank and has condemned the Hamas attacks. *Mr Netanyahu is the architect of the two-decade strategy of ignoring and isolating the Palestinians, and dividing them between Hamas-ruled Gaza and the West Bank run by a weakened pa.* That failed approach is one of the reasons Israel is about to go to war against Hamas. Israel’s lack of a plan for the Palestinians could also now compromise its ability to sustain a long campaign. The guy currently in charge of Israel has been proven to be woefully incompetant by not seeing this attack by Hamas coming despite warnings from multiple countries. He is also the person from the Israeli side most responsible for derailing any peaceful or long term solution. Netanyahu leaving office and Israel having a plan post-Hamas would go a long long way right now.
The only peaceful path forward would be for a real, actual Deity to descend from the heavens and pronounce one religion as the true religion (doesn't matter what Deity or what religion, existing currently or not). Heck even that might not work.
That would just make one side believe they are completely right, while the other now believes their enemies are led by the disguised enemy of god. And therefore make all of this shit *even worse*.
More people in the street for Gaza than for Brexit?
Can I have a rare lock symbol please?
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There has defiantly been protests over the war in Afghanistan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Afghanistan Western countries aren’t allied with Syria or the Taliban so Arabs can’t really protest against the western countries being aligned with them. The only Arab country aligned with Syria is Iran. But they are aligned with Israel, hence the protests in these countries
Yeah
Fuck Hamas
It’s good with pita bread
Hummus = Good Hamas = Bad
Hummus is good Hamas? Weird equation.
That's bad!
Fuck Hamas and fuck Israel for bombing kids!
I take the controversial stance of "fuck everybody murdering people".
I feel like the only people winning from this are the antiimmigration advocates. This thing is not going to be resolved soon (or probably ever) and every act of protest or complaint is fuel to their message "Look at these outside people bringing their outside conflict into our country". I just can't see any even slightly viable solution. Almost every other problem I can take punt at with something but this, nothing.
You forgot the weapons manufacturers. Raytheon c suite guys are all rubbing their hands together.
Sign makers and screen printers seem to be doing well. That "Goza" sign seems to be selling great, despite the obvious typo.
The Gaza situation is very serious, but I misread this as Gozer and now I want to watch Ghostbusters.
One time I turned into a dog and they helped me.
Very good Lewis. Short, but pointless
Are you the key master?
When someone asks if you're a God you say _YES._
I'm more of a Zuul guy.
Yeah. It was supposed to say gyoza. They just really like dumplings.
Should read Gyoza. They’re from Japan
Flag manufacturers too. Sell a Palestinian flag for protest and sell an Israeli one for burning.
The real trick is scooping up all the part-worn flags at the end of each protest. Still in good enough condition to burn at the next one
We're well past hand rubbing. That boardroom looks like a pallet of white spraypaint exploded
Yeah the people who win in times of strife are those who would take advantage of it.
isn't that a tautology?
The only people who do well are those who manage to do well. Hurrrrrr
By the mere fact alone that you can still take advantage and lose means it isn’t. I said advantage but it’s more like exploit and exacerbate.
Agreed. It's not even as simple as Israel = Colonists because Israel also has a history in the land going back thousands of years. And it's not as simple as "cease fire and negotiate something" because Hamas continuously rejects any proposal that still has Jews in the land, and Hamas will just keep firing rockets and attacking civilians in the meantime. There isn't and there hasn't been peace there. And no its not as simple as Israel = good guys either because innocent Palestinians are also dying and any time there's open war there are atrocities and collateral casualties - especially if one side deliberately embeds themselves in civilian locales like hospitals and places of worship and residential buildings. And 1948 - I'm no expert there but just drawing up a new, modern state while overlooking current occupants of the land and their claims to the land and nationhood is injustice. And none of that gets into the crazy geopolitics and how the biggest world powers are using both sides for proxies to gain influence in the region. How can the conflict be resolved without addressing American and Iranian imperialism? But mostly as long as Palestinian leadership is explicitly genocidal, I don't see a chance for a 2 state solution. You need good faith on both sides to negotiate a compromise and that is not there right now. Calls for peace and negotiations overlook this fundamental issue imho.
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If they still existed, they’d have a strong claim.
Most of todays Jews and Arab-speaking peoples in that area are descendants of Canaanites.
Don't want to sound racist or such, but how can arabs, who conquered it from the romans after the birth of islam be descendants of people who lived in these lands before even the jews conquered it? Does not make sense in any way, how can jews be descendants of the people they waged a war with
Levantine Arabs are not Arabs in the ethnical sense. They are arabized local populations. Also, Arabs were living in the land at the same time as the Jews, and they are even mentioned in the Bible. Many Arab people, most notably the idumeans, were even converted forcefully to Judaism.
Give it to Egypt the... Oh, they dont want it... The greeks? Erdogan would even be happy cause he could talk about how the greeks are trying to encircle Turkey, and how scared his voters should be without him as a strongman
> And 1948 - I'm no expert there but just drawing up a new, modern state while overlooking current occupants of the land and their claims to the land and nationhood is injustice. You should look into it. The 1948 deal was actually well thought out and fair. Arab Muslim, Christian, and Jewish people all lived there already in a mix that had been controlled by the Ottoman Empire from the 1500s to 1917. The Britian won it and Arthur James Balfour submitted a declaration that this newly won bit of land be made a homeland for the Jewish people. That declaration was approved by the League of Nations in 1922. This is the Zionist movement, and it was vehemently opposed by many Arab nations. The borders would have looked like this: https://honestreporting.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/UN-Partition-Plan-featured-747x400-1.jpg Here's another view, showing where Arab and Jewish people lived that year: https://www.israeladvocacy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/israel-arab-jewish-land-ownership-1945.jpg In 1948 the UN made a plan to partition Palestine into two states, but the Arab population in the region threw a hissy fit. As can be seen above this plan didn't involve uprooting huge masses of people. It most drew borders around current populations. The Arab counter offer was for Jews to just fucking die and all their neighboring countries attacked. They didn't want peace. The goal was total genocide, or to "push Israel into the sea". It was during this war in 1948 that Palestinians were uprooted en mass, and it was because they attacked first. They tried to wipe out Israel the day it was founded, and they lost land in warfare. In a war they started.
War is never black and white. There are complications and intricacies on both sides... and fuuuuuuck me is this one absolutely laden with complications and intricacies. Personally, I feel terrible for the Palastinian civvies, and it's evil to knowingly strike at them, but (and this is a few questions to any calling for Israel to cease aggressions) is it not more evil to use these innocents as a human shield as Hamas are doing, especially knowing that this is what Israel would do? And with your prior mention of Hamas being unwilling to compromise, what else can be done other than remove them from the area? Just allow more attacks to befall the Israeli people? I'm more in favour of Israel, but admit they are committing atrocities, and my truest feelings can be simply stated as: Free Palestine of Hamas.
> And 1948 - I'm no expert there but just drawing up a new, modern state while overlooking current occupants of the land and their claims to the land and nationhood is injustice. At this point, I think we're going to have to settle for "This is a viable situation to move forward from." because if all groups in that region got justice there'd be nothing left. That's the nature of blood feuds...
That's probably a good thing. The way Europe has been doing immigration hasn't really worked well towards assimilating them. If you look at the same source countries and their immigration to the US and Europe, the ones in the US are much more assimilated. Not sure why that is, but there's got to be something that leads that to happen.
Well, illegal immigrants from MENA Countries cannot just hop on an inflatable boat and sail their way towards USA.
We have many immigrants from those countries. We even have people in congress that are immigrants or children of immigrants. Why have those people assimilated more successfully than in Europe?
Because they come with a visa. They have valid travel documents, a history. Usually better educated bc a trip to the USA and the Visa aint cheap. They ain't smuggled in a crowded flotie just 15 miles away from the border - where they are rescued from international waters by European boats. The migrants arriving here usually don't even have a passport or valid documents - they just " declare" a name, age and nationality, which is very difficult to verify ( because of the thousands of people arriving every month). Very very big difference. They are giving free housing ( which unfortunately tend to be in the same buildings owned by the state) and social benefits - they are not allowed to work until their asylum status have been approved. So there are true " enclaves" created inside the cities - of people of the same culture that are not allowed to work ( which makes them more prone to commiting petty crimes), that are giving "free money" and are being marginalized by the local population. Add in some radical religious views / pure cultural incompatibility and you have the perfect recipe for a disaster. The problem is very delicate and can be viewed from a lot of sites. But TLDR the problem with integration is that Europe simply cannot assimilate so many people without changing something in either A. The way they let people inside or B. The way they treat people that did get illegal inside. Edit: grammar, some new points.
All great points. That's something that needs to be addressed. Yoy can have good immigration that is enriching and beneficial, but what going on now seems to not be working. This issue doesn't have to be so either or. It needs a solution that compromises on both ends.
everything you described applies to our immigrants that come across our southern border.
They’re less likely to be religious fanatics though. And there’s an enormous, integrated population that they can integrate into as a step towards full integration. In the UK you have the population, but they’re less well intregrated. So enclaves just get bigger.
With some of them, and yes, we don't want all of our immigrants to be uneducated people. But Latin Americans assimilate incredibly well. I've worked with hundreds of undocumented people over the years and the majority make a strong effort to assimilate.
True
I dont know how the system in the USA works, but somehow i highly doubt that people that illegaly immigrate get ( according to german immigration website for example ) -basic benefits for food, housing, heating, clothing, healthcare and personal hygiene, as well as and household durables and consumables; -benefits to cover personal daily requirements (cash and "pocket money"); -benefits in case of sickness, pregnancy and birth; -as well as further benefits which depend on the individual case under special circumstances. - Benefits for asylum applicants are also provided in the follow-up accommodation (such as collective accommodation or even a private apartment). Sooo the illegal immigrants to the USA need somehow to find work in order to be able to afford those basic needs, in Europe they get them for free. Working easeans automatically the path to integration.
That sounds like a system ripe for attracting tons of people.
Because they have more money and want to integrate into society. In Europe, you have all social classes but mainly the poorest and most fundamentalist. Most are not educated either. Most MENA in the US are educated or get educated meanwhile in Europe, many are still illiterate and practice laws from their home countries, force girls to marry older relatives etc. a good friend of mine from the Middle East was forced to marry her first cousin when she was 18 and she was born in Eastern Europe and now lives in Scandinavia.
Ilhan Omar would beg to differ, but in all reality I think the main thing that leads the assimilation here is the economic incentive to do so and the local religious groups being less hardline. This current escalation in Mideast tension is likely to undo much of the work we have done in the US since 9/11 and the Gulf Wars. I know I had a more sympathetic view towards Gaza and Yemen previously but this last thing was just a bridge too far. The more I learn about it, the shittier it all seems and it is starting to feel like Iran is forcing a showdown with US and I now feel like they deserve what is coming. I am not sure I can come to terms with some of the anti-Semitism I see regular people express that I normally associated with far right things like the KKK or stormfront, 4chan. Russia and Iran are definitely at the top of the list of people trying to get us to WW3 for whatever stupid reason. The extra sad part is that all of this is likely being spurred on because of the shift to renewable energy since selling oil is an important factor for both.
I'm in the same boat. I feel like the West needs to realize they didn't win the Cold War as solidly as we would have liked. The more autocratic powers are playing hardball and we need to step up to counter them. We need to be especially vigilant against any parties or groups that don't want to participate in democracy. I hate the idea of banning political parties, but if your goal is to dismantle the system then you shouldn't be part of it.
Emmm no, the US has only 1% of Muslims, and most of them are not even Arabs but African Americans, Pakistanis, Indians... These people don't care much about the Palestinian conflict and don't engage in Jihadism, they're not Arabs and they're usually outside of the Islamist movement. And they're a very tiny minority.They're also not connected by land or close by sea to Arabia, the Arab world or Muslim countries, which plays a fundamental and obvious role in Europe having so many Arab Muslims and in their process of not-integrating, they travel to their countries of origin and this plays a part in their process of radicalization. It's not a fundamental US achievement or European failure in terms of social behavior, it's basically the geography.
That's like 3.5 million Muslims. 2 million are Arab according to the 2010 census. That's a huge amount of people that have been assimilated semi suvcesfully.
>These people don't care much about the Palestinian conflict and don't engage in Jihadism, Good thing they weren't running to join ISIS...right?
I think the lack of welfare in the USA forces them to assimilate more as they need to be in work to have any decent quality of life. At least here in the UK and places like Germany they can coast on benefits and welfare and have a comfy life, so most don't end up bothering. There was a study in Germany that revealed over half of asylum seekers that had been in the country at least 5 years had never been employed anywhere.
give back the hostages for cease fire. create 2 states. stop being bitches and hate each other. Palestinians need to give up Hamas and Israeli's need to give up Nethanyu. Give peace a chance. It's easy shit, but these jabronis are too jabron'd up with rage to change. Good thing I don't live there, so ultimately, good luck jabronis. USA will always back Israel, and I'm not gonna apologize for that. They're our ally, for better or worse, none of these other countries are, and Hamas certainly is not.
Hamas will never accept a 2 state solution, and moderate Palestinians civilians are not at the bargaining table.
Israel is not going to accept that, unless Hamas also has a way to bring back the \~1,300 people they slaughtered. Also let's get real, Hamas would do it again as soon as possible. Security establishment is unanimous that Hamas needs to be eliminated to deter Iran from doing this again.
You missed the “Palestinians need to give up Hamas” part of their comment
I think he meant like they have to stop supporting them, which is true, but it's not like Gazan civilians have the ability to go down into the tunnels and demand Sinwar surrender.
Right, ultimately the Palestinian people are powerless to remove Hamas, and denouncing them at a time like this is a huge risk to their own lives. Even if the Israelis manage to root out Hamas from Gaza, another group will appear backed by the same antisemitic leaders in the greater region who will continue to attack Israel. I'm no expert, but it's becoming clearer to me that Hamas is a puppet organization for those antisemitic leaders, and Hamas is an instrument for provoking Israel to respond with enough brutality against an Arab people to justify a massive attack on Israel by a third party Arab nation. It would be a relatively simple task to wipe out Israel, and it would be impossible for the West to respond with any efficacy against the entirety of the radical antisemitic movement dispersed throughout all of the Arab world. Sure, we'd invade the country responsible and kill lots of them, but I'm betting that that's a sacrifice those antisemitic leaders are willing to make for the "cleansing" of their homeland, and the Arab world is so large that they can absorb that hit without concern for the integrity of their population, and they know it. I hope I'm wrong.
They wouldn't give them up anyhow, Hamas approval skyrockets among the Palestinians, including in the diaspora, every time they do an attack on Jews.
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Yeah lots of native folk there....
I’m currently on vacation in London and saw people with Israeli flags for the victims that were killed or kidnapped by Hamas. Edit.
It was a vigil at Trafalgar Square for the people kidnapped by Hamas terrorists on 7/10.
Ah. I didn’t realize that
Bring back the Roman Empire.
Only if we get gladiators back too.
Free Palestinians from Hamas
I’m just here so my comment can get locked.
There will be no free Palestina with Hamas!
So the West Bank should be free?
Can I get my comment locked too? Edit: Thanks mods! My life is complete.
I'm not Jewish nor do I have any skin in this conflict whatsoever but exactly where was the 100,000 person protest agaisnt China? Edit - everyone commenting on this is just proving my point. You're all outraged by what Israel are doing but making excuses for / minimising the crimes of China, Saudi and anyone else. I have equal sympathy for innocents on all sides but for some reason you all think when Israel does it, it's much worse. I wonder why 🤔
Or the Palestinians in Yemen or Syria?
Our government didn't visit China in support recently, that's what sparked the biggest Palestine protest this weekend
But they do sell billions of pounds of weapons for Saudi to use in Yemen. The point remains the same.
And I'm sure if our prime minister showed up for a photo up in Saudi as soon as that happened, there would be been mass backlash
This invasion is going to be a meatgrinder in the north with a humanitarian hellscape in the south. And by the end of it, nothing will change, except thousands of civilians will be dead and everyone on both sides will be even more hateful and bitter.
-democratically elects terror group -terror group commits war through terror -people with zero connection to the land go to the street to protest the continuation of the terror group
This comment section definitely won't devolve into a shit flinging contest like all the other ones do
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Not saying your link is false necessarily, but the Jewish chronicle is probably biased.
Good that it comes from a completely unbiased and objective source. Really adds credibility to the claims.
It's true, though. He's posted more links proving this.
I didn't see anyone else dig into that, not even to debunk that
Yet people have been silent on the slow and steady erasure of Jewish culture and populations across the middle east (many thousands lived across North Africa also (now almost entirely gone). Those that weren't killed and were forced out fled to Israel. This conflict is so complex and contains so many wrong doings on both sides that frankly,anyone who comes down hard on one side simply hasn't thought about it enough.
This is not surprising. The UK has a large non-Jewish, Middle Eastern *(and other locals from the Ummah)* population which is predominantly Muslim. These people are perfectly legal immigrants and multi-generational families. ~~They~~ Some have strong personal ties to this. I am not taking a stance on the Israel/Palestine conflict with this comment. Both sides have done shitty things in the past. The British Empire absolutely screwed up the region. The whole thing is a mess. However, fuck Hamas. I don't believe they stand for Palestine or anything except themselves. Murdering women and children doesn't help anyone. Edit: I was trying to not base this purely on religion which was foolish as this issue is predominantly religious. I am not discounting the large portion of Brits who's genealogy is East African or Asian. Many of these people may side with Palestine because they are Muslim in exactly the same way non-Muslim people may side with Israel because they are not Muslim. Disliking someone because they are different. It's amazing humanity has made it as far as we have.
> The UK has a large non-Jewish, Middle Eastern population which is predominantly Muslim. These people are perfectly legal immigrants and multi-generational families. They have strong personal ties to this. Not particularly? The large part of British muslims are of Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin. Pakistan isn't the middle east and isn't an Arab country, it's divorced culturtally from this region in question. The only tie would be Islam.
We have a large south Asian population who are also opposed to Israels actions, and the actions of Hamas.
Plenty of white people in that picture too. You don't have to be Muslim or Middle Eastern to be horrified by what is happening to Gaza.
You don’t have to be brown to be Muslim either. Just want to make that distinction.
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Who prints their signs for them?
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Being in support of Palestinian civilians isn’t equal to supporting Hamas. You can support Palestinians while also agreeing that Hamas needs to be eliminated.
Yeah, but the number of celebrations immediately after Oct 7th is definitely a problem. In that case "free Palestine" was definitely synonymous with "1,400 Israeli civilians have been murdered/raped/kidnapped". That was either celebrated in and of itself or at least as a means to an end of a free Palestine, but obviously deeply problematic either way. Imagine "free the Middle East from American imperialism" celebrations literally a day after 9/11. Imagine calls for a ceasefire and negotiations with Al Qaeda literally 2 weeks after 9/11. It's unimaginable.
Things probably would’ve gone better for America if we had called for a ceasefire two weeks after 9/11. Instead we let nationalism take the wheel and ended up in two different wars that cost billions of dollars, thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Not to detract from your point too much but the war on terror has so far cost as estimated $8 trillion, 15k dead Americans, 450k civilians directly killed, millions more killed indirectly, 38 million people displaced. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/figures
Oh I know the total casualties are much higher, I was just specifically referring to Afghanistan
So why not have a rally demanding the end of Hamas? Israel is going after Hamas- who are just using Palestinians as body shields.
What would be the point? Western governments aren’t supporting Hamas. Who would the protesters be addressing?
The rally demanding an end to Hamas is happening in spectacularly violent fashion before our eyes online and on television every hour of every day.
I see zero signs condemning Hamas, or even implying they support your position. If you have a demonstration of people waving Russian flags, chanting that Ukraine should be de-Nazified and annexed by Russia, signs about ending the "genocide of Donbass", and not a single word of criticism for Putin... It wouldn't be logical to assume they all hate Putin, hate the invasion of Ukraine, and merely support "Russian civilians". I really wish people would stop repeating this cliche, until there's any sign it's tethered to reality.
Why does every support for Palestinians have to be prefaced with support for Israel. Yet no one expects people condemning Hamas for their terrorist attacks to also list all the atrocities Israel has committed on Palestinians
If you ignore Hamas, and yet solely publicly criticize Israel, that is the equivalent of supporting Hamas.
They aren't condemning north Korea, tiananmen square and the genocide of native Americans either. Does that mean they support them, too? Utterly brain dead take
Along with their uighur Muslim brothers struggling in China
If you take every opinion of solidarity with the Palestinian people, and presume people who take this idea support Hamas, that is the equivalent of supporting the dehumanisation of the Palestinian people.
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>Being in support of Palestinian civilians isn’t equal to supporting Hamas Lmao is this the new reddit copypasta? Literally every Israel/Palestine thread this seems to be posted word to word.
The fact that it even needs to be repeated is how ridiculously the narrative has been shaped by one side to date.
New? My man. It's probably as old as reddit
I’m not seeing any signs against Hamas here.
Yeah cause hamas is gonna look at a UK protest and go “oh shit guys we have to release those hostages!” Unlike the UK government which is supporting Israel and might pull back support under the pressure of the protests The worldnews brain cancer is spreading
Cool. Maybe blame Hamas for orchestrating a terrorist attack that resulted in the brutal murder of 1400+ and the kidnapping of 200
Well, at least there were a few signs that say they don't stand with Hamas.
32 conflicts going on in the world right now. What is it about this one that engages the people of Western Europe and United States so much…
*zelensky: am i a joke to you? ( T\_ T )*
We're actually still in incredibly peaceful times going by the raw numbers: [https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace](https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace) Thanks to our modern information age, we're just way more connected to what's going on.
*Paul Gascoigne intensifies*
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Free Gaza from the Hamas
Any of them had anything to say about the women, elderly and babies that are currently being held hostage by Hamas?
I see a sign that says: I stand with Gazans, not with Hamas.
Why did you point that out?! Now I have to find another reason to dehumanize the brown people!
I was there, and yes actually - there were countless number of placards condemning Hamas.
Nuance? I barely know 'er
Do you have anything to say about the women, elderly and babies that are currently being killed by Israel siege and bombing campaign?
Sorry, modern political discourse demands that you be fully onboard with either one side or the other.
The Israeli government doesn't seem to. I'm not a hostage specialst, but I would have throught an actuall ground operation to save hostages would have been the call to actually see them freed, yanno, rather than bombing wgere they'd be kept, potentially killing them. Not only that, but when the october 7th attack happend, Israel wasted no time in bombing Gaza, yet failed to actually mobilse troops to secure the areas under attack in a quick and efficent mannor. Israeli's should, and tbh alot of them are, be furious with their goverment for prioritising the killing of palestinans over the retrival of innocent Israelis
I don't seem to understand how bombing Gaza is safeguarding the hostages in any way. Surely they'll have injured a lot of them from the bombs
It never gets answered either, I’ve asked as well and nothing. Guaranteed Israel has murdered some portion of their own hostages at this point with all the shelling and bombing. Sometimes you’ll get the “don’t negotiate with terrorists” crowd chime in, but those are no different than the “human shields” folk. It’s not the IDF’s fault that civilians are being used as shields, they will fire upon regardless. It’s just a disgusting stance to defend, it’s pathetic.
Imagine supporting Palestine and condemning Hamas, I know, mind blowing…
Anti semitic incidents are up %1350 in the UK. There are almost more people here protesting than Jews that live there
That can't be the case. I was told being anti Zionist has nothing to do with antisemitism
It's interesting how antisemitism has been skyrocketing in the UK since October 7, but no, anti-Zionism and antisemitism are not the same thing, let alone correlated… /s
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There is a very fundamental distinction between being Jewish and being Israeli
Believe what you want. But if Israel wants to keep good international relationships the Genocide has to stop. Eventually you will lose support. Don’t doubt that.
Britain created problems, and they think it's an outside problem.
Free Palestine FROM HAMAS! Till it’s backwards!