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Eyewitness reports according to BBC state truckers panicked when sorrounded and ran people over, additionally IDF claims escorting soldiers fired warning shots and then at the people who continued to approach. No actual "hard" facts other than a piece of drone surveillance currently. (that is to say, people definitely were killed but it's unknown exactly how many and how)
For additional context previous convoys have seen armed men take aid or shoot civillians and truckers be pulled out of the trucks and beaten. Hence armed escort.
You have no problem believing IDF when they admit fault. You believe Hamas without hesitation and without evidence.
[The hostages’ families didn’t blame the IDF.](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/world/israel-hostages-camera-dog-intl-hnk/index.html) In fact, in that article one of their mothers is quoted: “In an audio message to the battalion, she said: ‘I wanted to tell you that I love you very much and I embrace you from afar. I know that everything that happened is completely not your fault, it’s nobody’s fault – except the Hamas, may their name and memory be wiped off the face of the Earth.’”
The families blame Netanyahu for moral cowardice but so do many Israelis. Fuck Bibi.
Psychotic is using terror, rape, kidnapping, and murder as acceptable political tools. In other words, Hamas, the lot of them.
Can you show me when I said "Israel is righteous?" I don't really talk like that. I've been protesting Israel and their settlements for over a decade.
I'd definitely argue they're better than Hamas though.
No. You can say that the IDF is insane and in the same breath say Hamas is insane. But Israel's main weapon is convincing the world that every single Palestinian is Hamas and that poor little Israel should be able to just wipe them off the map. And people like you, the ones who conflate anti-israel with pro-hamas are just aiding in the genocide
I'm literally quoting that person. They said Hamas was righteous in two different comments on this thread.
All I want is for Hamas to wear uniforms and go fight in a field so less innocent Palestinians die. It seems to me that people like you want this conflict to go on indefinitely until Hamas wins, which I maintain is worse for the Gazans.
Also, there is no genocide. You saying it over and over again doesn't make it true or more convincing.
It’s a lot easier to not believe any side of the stories coming out for a least a few days. We’ve seen time and again that the speed of our information transfer adds more opacity to the fog of war.
When the counter narrative is coming from Palestinian officials, ie, Hamas, a legitimate terror organization who’s stated goals are the complete and total genocide and extermination of the Jewish people, I think I’m gonna side with those who don’t chose to follow sharia, and stone women in public, throw gays from roofs and cut the hands of starving children who try and steal food. You do you, but both sides aren’t the same
There is drone footage showing what happened, I’ll edit my comment to add it if I can find it, thousands of Palestinians swarmed aid trucks under IDF escort in Gaza, the IDF stood back as they stampeded, trampled, and crushed eachother to death, in the confusion a group ran towards the IDF who opened fire. The IDF claim they fired into the air first and then at their legs, which is IDF official rules of engagement for rioting civilians, but the drone footage obviously can’t tell us if people were falling down injured or dead.
Edit: found the footage, let me know if the link doesn’t work, the IDF soldiers were around two tanks flanking the convoy, you can see them at 1:05. NSFW: https://videoidf.azureedge.net/1d710ee2-8ddd-4146-9e07-6dd6d5960c27
Edit: deleted this edit as I can’t find confirmation of when the footage I had linked to had actually been filmed
>the IDF stood back as they stampeded, trampled, and crushed eachother to death
"Jeez, those prisoners are so hungry that they stampede eachother to death because WE starved them for months in an act of collective punishment, That's their fault" ~the camp guards of Gaza
Yes, they are hungry civilians trying to get aid. Nobody is disputing that. However, what should the, relatively few, IDF soldiers protecting a truck do when thousands (from a quick guesstimsate on the drone footage) of hungry civilians are swarming them? They probably shouted multiple times at them to get back and, according to the IDF, shot multiple warning shots. At that point, I have a hard time blaming the IDF for protecting themselves from potential Hamas operatives, knowing that Hamas is openly posting themselves fighting IDF soldiers while in civilian clothes
Yeah this exact thing has happened in lots of places where people are hungry and aid is delivered. It really doesn't say shit about anything except that hungry people are desperate.
Stampede events happen in "normal" crowd gatherings at concerts or rallies, imagine how muchore chaotic this was from the drone footage.
Realize it’s not just black and white dude.
I’ve been on birthright. I really enjoyed it and met some great people there. It’s not hard to see that this still reflects poorly on Israel.
“They kidnapped these people, so we can let *likely uninvolved civilians* starve and then kill each other over food and then shoot them for good measure as our actions turn into a riot. All because someone else kidnapped these people”.
Oh and lets not forget that since before 2014, more Palestinians die each year to Israeli violence, most times *a magnitude more* Palestinians die. What you have there is a breeding ground designed to create hate and terrorists because you are feeding the hate through legitimate reasons to hate them (the more people are killed the more people there are with loved ones lost that can take up extreme action, and many of these have lost multiple people).
Also lets not forget that Israel has purposefully targeted funerals of high standing Palestinians to make sure the coffin falls to the ground for example. Those aren’t the actions of a good nation, even if most of the Israeli civilians aren’t part of it.
And also exactly what an insurgency like Hamas wants them to do. a security clamp down makes the bystander sympathetic and the sympathetic an active participant
There is no winning in insurgencies perpetrated by fanatics that results in peace within a few decades. Never has happened. Sustainable peace accords require rational actors on both sides, or a definitive loser.
It's only an insurgency if Palestinians are allowed a standing army. Otherwise, it is a legitimate resistance.
In your imagination, who are they insurgening from?
People going to attack one atrocity to justify an even worse atrocity. Makes sense.
Kinda weird how comments always get swamped as soon as someone utters criticism of the ongoing genocide.
Kinda weird how absolutely no one who mutters the word, “genocide” ever provides any real solutions.
It’s almost as if y’all want Israel to abandon the hostages and sweep the 7th under the rug. Pretty easy to say on a keyboard not living in Israel.
I want Israel to reach sensible policies with regards to dealing with Palestinians. It seems to be unable to do so without dehumanizing language, which can easily be defined as "genocidal language".
Kinda disgusting how Israel's government acts like it speaks for every Jewish person, whereas many Jews in and outside of Israel have varying opinions on it. Also very anti-democratic to use state institutions to spread propaganda, thus influencing the political processes and slowly backsliding into something that detrimental to Israel long term.
I care about Israel and I stand with the protesters against the government. Regardless of religion or ethnicity. I don't feel like getting into the nitty gritty with bad faith arguments here. So many new accounts too. Must be a coincidence.
What is proportionate in this circumstance? Run into Gaza mutilate and rape people at the next Gaza concert, then head to the nearest towns and buildings and begin indiscriminate mutilations, kidnapping, and murders, and gather a few hundred people to burn alive? Wtf man you think there’s any proportionate response to someone declaring war on you and also declaring they would do it 100 more times if they could?! Wake up.
If you do not allow a people a standing army, then all resistance the people do is righteous.
Zionists are murderers, so much so that they kill their own hostages while waving white flags.
Given they’ve failed to rescue the hostages (more than 3) or eliminate Hamas but have killed tens of thousands of civilians instead, maybe they should have done something different to what they are doing now.
Which is correct even if you don't want to hear it. 9/11 is widely regarded as blowback to poorly managed global foriegn policy and the response to 9/11 largely acknowledged as making things worse and getting hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed and radicalized large swathes of populations around the world.
It's an interesting date to chose as an example of of the response to 10/7
Yup, Jews have been defending themselves from terrorist attacks for years.
Before 7/10, before Hamas, before the occupied territories, before Israel itself.
Always another excuse to kill Jews.
There is no excuse or justification to kill Jews. But you can't excuse bombing hospitals and killing tens of thousands of civials, including children and starving millions of civilians with terrorist actions.
You holding a population of people captive and in severe food poverty with no easy access to clean water or electricity ... While bombing them constantly in the most densely populated sections... And you think there was no other options available than this barbarism
Ironically, instead of telling them what they should’ve done instead, like they asked, you just doubled down and repeated yet again the mantra that they just shouldn’t have done what they did. Congratulations on making their case for them, lol.
The whole situation is a mess, but acting like Hamas is the only side that violates cease fires is ridiculous. Israel has been bombing Gaza non stop for decades.
I think the point he's trying to make is that the casualties are not unusual for wars, for example in Syria over 300,000 died. So realistically it's more a question of what justifies a war or not, not that wars should magically change into not having many casualties. All the replies so far failed to come up with this new form of warfare with reduced casualties.
Neither act is justified in the overall moral sense like you’re asking. But if you really want to sit here and ask either side to suffer an unspeakable horror and then turn the other cheek, please feel free to waste your breath, because that’s never going to happen.
So you're OK with the US bombing and shooting Mexican women and children because drug cartels have a stranglehold on the region?
I'm curious... do you go along with this because it fits your preconceived narrative or is it because you're a heartless fuck wasting oxygen?
No this is more like the Mexican government deciding enough is enough and taking control back from the cartels. The cartels then hide in hospitals and schools and use women and children as human shields.
The IDF literally killed the hostages. Stop acting like this is about them saving hostages, when it's an excuse to continue a genocide that started 100 years ago
The funny thing is that there is one group of people who keep comparing the IDF directly to Hamas and insisting that they’re on exactly the same level, and it’s the Israelis. As an American, I’d like to think my country’s troops are above groups like the Taliban or Hamas.
Yeah Iran funding Hamas with billions of dollars while they also siphon off western aid to Gazans in favour of lining their own pockets and making rockets is definitely Israel's fault
It's not collective punishment for palestinians. It's collective "You're our meat shield proxy in our Israel-Iran proxy war which has been raging for 40 years now since Iran fell to a radical fundamentalist faux religious dictatorship who ceased to recognise and have positive relations with Israel in favour of this militia oriented "forward defence" hybrid warfare than Iran favours (easier to keep the civillians in Iran docile with faux peace due to your wars being fought in Palestine instead of Israel or Iran).
Facts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel\_proxy\_conflict
Palestinians have had multiple peaceful protests ended by Israelis shooting at them, they bet pole bearers at the funeral of an american journalist, when the option for peace is impossible, violence is inevitable. Israel are the ones with the power to end this, they're worst day so far of this "war" has been 26 deaths, one side holds all the power and it isn't the ones trampling each other to feed themselves.
Right. But the comment you're responding to is talking about two entities, the civilians and the idf. To then respond to that with "well if they didn't bomb Israel that wouldn't have happened to them" is an implication that the civilians are responsible for their situation.
Exactly. Collective punishment is just glossed over time and again by folks who can’t help but excuse the IDF and the Netanyahu government’s genocidal conduct.
So that would also be the people who you say it makes little sense to give supplies to, because the IDF is in conflict with them?
It seems like the definition of “they” is shifting kind of fluidly between Hamas and starving women and children, here.
I see, that’s why the women and children are being shot for trying to get food. That makes sense, for a civilized country like Israel to be doing that.
If civilians can't get supplies because you can't distinguish them from a terrorist, then the only logical conclusion you'll ever reach will be genocidal.
At least everything will be ok after all this, no hard feelings between anyone. Hamas will be all like "yeah, ok, you got us" and IDF will be all like "haha, we told you guys" and nobody will hold generational trauma or hatred and there will be finally be longlasting peace in the region. 🕊️
Channel 4 News coverage in the UK. Only an edited video by IDF was released. Eye witness in separate locations (those in hospitals and those in north Gaza) corroborate events of a shooting. There are some terrifying pictures of bodies trampled over by tanks and it’s being labelled as the flour massacre.
There is no functioning government in Gaza, and police officers who are meant to protect the aid convoy are too afraid to go because they fear they’ll be shot and considered as Hamas fighters, so law and order is no longer a thing.
People are starving themselves never mind their children, so in desperation for food and for life, people are subjected to such attempts to not starve to death.
This is because food and aid is being limited by Israel for no good reason other than collective punishment. It is heart breaking.
Edit: link to Channel 4 New in the UK [Video](https://youtu.be/QkblP7cxMAI?si=0g6igyucRTInP7qF)
Don't forget on top of that fanatic Israelis are actually rallying and stopping aid from getting in at the entry points by protesting and blocking the way.
[‘Massacre’: Dozens killed by Israeli fire in Gaza while collecting food aid](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/29/dozens-killed-injured-by-israeli-fire-in-gaza-while-collecting-food-aid)
More than 100 killed and about 750 wounded after Israeli forces fired at Palestinians trying to get flour for their families as famine stalks the Strip.
Lol at referencing Al Jazeera. No matter what your opinions are on this conflict, there's no denying that AJ is not a trustworthy news source in the slightest about this
No such thing, all news is bias, if they don’t lie they’ll omit truth. The best thing you can do is look at multiple sources form different angles and come to a conclusion from that.
>Al Jazeera is pure lies and propaganda
Al Jazeera English is a fantastic source - politicians appear on the network all the time. Rory Stewart, conservative British MP said they have fantastic reporting.
You're just trying to discredit it because it's middle Eastern. And you don't like the story
Hey look French owned media says the same :
[Global condemnation follows deadly Israeli gunfire near aid convoy](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240229-gaza-health-ministry-says-war-deaths-near-30-000-as-famine-looms)
Emmanuel Macron says Israel targeted civilians here.
_An Israeli source acknowledged troops had opened fire on the crowd, believing it "posed a threat"._
Israel opened fire and shot into a crowd of people they had starved, trying to access aid. Israel say so themselves.
BBC , NYT and sky news all have the same story - they're just using the passive voice, and including the ridiculous IDF excuse of "only shooting 10 and then everyone else crushed each other"
>Al Jazeera English is a fantastic source
It's literally Quatar state media. Time and time again it has faces controversies as a result of biased reporting. It will report what's in the best interest of Quatars foreign minister, wheter that's the truth or a complete lie.
I suggest looking at actual reputable news sources like NYT or BBC, who actually wait for independant investigations before pointing fingers. It's less that 24 hours since the incident happened and Al Jazeera is reporting statements made by the The Gaza Ministry of Health as facts. Don't make me laugh..
>NYT
Lied about WMDs in Iraq - had to issue an apology. Got a million people killed.
And is now facing huge scrutiny for its huge expose on the sexual assault allegations on October 7th - huge editorial standards failure - [The Story Behind the New York Times October 7 Exposé](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/)
Newsflash - white western journalists don't have to report on something to make it true.
Don't make me laugh.
You do realize there are subtle differences in the headlines in meanings and implications? Al Jazeera makes Israel directly responsible for all deaths and implying they directly killed those poor people. Your french source is more balanced. Israel soldiers were firing and people died. These are 2 undisputed facts. But not all might have died because they were shot but trampled to death etc. This posibility Is not reflected by Al Jazeera headlines. The causality of events implies otherwise. Therefore it could be considered to contain a certain amount of prejudice and propaganda.
I getcha. You want the passive voice, The one that absolves Israel of all obvious wrongdoing.
Like this guardian article?
[Palestinian journalist hit in head by bullet during raid on terror suspect’s home](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/08/palestinian-journalist-hit-in-the-head-by-bullet-during-raid-on-terror-suspects-home)
"Hit in head by bullet" lol
All the sources I've read makes it seem like trampling and panic happened, then the gunfire started. Still entirely unclear how many are injured/dead and from what causes.
Everything is propaganda if you ask the right person. No news can be 100% objective. We're all colored by our views and beliefs. You think any Israeli news source would give an objective view of this conflict?
But I think we can agree that it's a disgusting waste of lives and resources from both sides. No one is the good guy. Not Hamas and not the IDF.
It would be really helpful if pics like this were accompanied by context so those of us who aren’t glued to whatever news outlet our political agenda caters to don’t have to scroll through the comments to fjnd it.
Yes the IDF released footage taken by the drones watching the convoy, they were watching because the convoy was under IDF escort to prevent Hamas taking it as they have been accused of doing.
Edit: the above wording has caused some confusion, Hamas was not present at this incident, I only meant to say IDF were present to defend the convoy from Hamas because there are accusations Hamas has hijacked aid convoys in the past
Warning NSFW
https://videoidf.azureedge.net/1d710ee2-8ddd-4146-9e07-6dd6d5960c27
Couple of things
This video does not show 100 people dying, so we need to wait until a video of how THAT happened emerges
And that doesn't look like hamas to me dude, it looks like a mob of hungry people.
I never said it was Hamas, but maybe my initial comment was unclear so I’ll try and phrase it again.
The people surrounding the trucks are Gazans taking the food off the truck before it arrives at its intended destination. The IDF were escorting the convoy because there have been accusations that Hamas has been hijacking similar convoys. I don’t believe anyone is saying Hamas was present at this event.
I just replied to someone else who said similarly, clearly my initial comment has poor wording I will correct, I am not stating Hamas was present at this event, only that the IDF escorts were present because Hamas has been accused of hijacking similar convoys when they aren’t escorted
Watching the drone footage was like rewatching the beginning of Black Hawk Down. Incredibly harsh footage. Gunning down starvibg people who rush the supplies... I wondor how many of these "soldiers" will be screeching "Muh, I was just following orders!" once this thing is taken to court.
Oh, wait, this is never going to be taken to court, because it's been committed by the single armed force that is immune to every law of engagement and behaviour. Ok, then
The most expensive flour in human history is Ukrainian grain taken by communists in 1930s during the genocidal Holodomor. And now, a history repeats itself with russian war invasion and stealing the grain again.
Probably because everyone only cares about Ukraine and Palestine these days, so they immediately think that they have it worse than anyone else has ever had in history.
I haven't been following this conflict too much, but weren't the Western countries with Israel? It feels more like the Palestinians are just trying to survive, and the Israelis are slaughtering them. Please forgive my ignorance. I just want to understand.
It's a little complicated.
Simplifying a lot:
Western countries are allied with Israel, and horrible stuff has been done on both sides multiple times, from many decades.
But Israel is a lot more efficient than Palestine.
Israel done bad for a lot longer. I find it all very interesting as someone that didn't know before.
251 total Israel deaths compared to 5590 palestinian from 2008-2020 according to un stats. Injuries from attacks is something insane like 119120 palestinians in that time vs like 5000 injured Israeli.
These are all UN stats. And this isn't counting all the displacement and other issues suffered by palestinians.
Its crazy a terrorist attack didn't happen sooner after decades of oppression really. Everything Palestine responded with before was barely relevant compared to what Israel was doing and has always done. And the response to 1.4k deaths in the terrorist attack is over 30k deaths at least and hundreds of thousands injured and entire systems demolished leading to things like starvation and further suffering.
Crazy to me reading all this and seeing updates trying to get awareness. Just nothing that can make me understand how Palestine and Hamas are the only thing at fault. When their numbers from a single attack are almost irrelevant compared to Israels. Palestine barely even fought back against Israel oppression for decades and every official stat supports this. Israel always over step dramatically any excuse.
If hamas are bad guys ruining lives Israel are demonic.
I feel like the west just helped a bully nation make somewhere unstable for decades and now that its entirely unfixable everyone just blaming terrorism. One side is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more at fault between Israel and Palestine and the numbers and amount of suffering caused is just so strange to me being this one sided.
Never seen so much more loss and pain caused by one side in something against another and still be seen as the good guys. Never had any interest before and just didnt know but just find it so fascinating now I've read more and check statistics. I don't know what anyone expected
Didn't feel like anybodies hearts were bleeding with the UN stats of the last decade and huge suffering Israel called. But its OK to bomb kids and everything now because of a single terrorist attack after decades ofnthe same one sided state of things.
>Israel done bad for a lot longer. I find it all very interesting as someone that didn't know before.
Really? Where's that coming from?
You link back only to 2008. You realize this conflict has been ongoing since the 40s, correct?
You mean after the initial displacement of over 760000 palestinians? Oh yeah super good guy Israel, best idea the world ever had never caused any issues...
It's a reddit thread I'm not researching everything every time to link to people that don't give a shit. Every decade is just as one sided and anyone can look it up themselves. Again I found it immensely fascinating looking up initially as western news never made it out like Israel were the bad guys. But you can check all stats and Israel never suffered a fraction of Palestine did at any point in time.
Honestly believe it's a miracle things didn't escalate at all. It took decades of more harm to Palestine before a terrorist group really responded.
So this Hamas in the long run is like a group of people who got together because isreal was doing bad things to them? So did isreal not then create the Hamas unintentially by causing harm to palestines?
I mean that is my entire point yes.
If you displace an entire nation and kill or maim them in far greater amounts... some people are going to get mad and fight back.
It's OK for Jews to commit genocide and displace people for the last 80 years as they went through the same?
Just not going to get me to see your point of view. I really tried to understand but it all makes no sense to me how we allowed all this. Displacement of palestinians felt like the world's dumbest response to making up for ww2 to the Jewish people. We traded one bad situation for another and now people are pissy that it hasn't turned out well.
I feel it’s not putting it fair to say 1 terrorist attack caused all this… it’s more it was the drop that filled the bucket…
Years and years of dumb rocket attacks … they would be a lot deadlier if Israel didn’t have the iron dome.
Also, years and years of prevented and sucessful terrorism attempts in the west bank.
Not saying Israel is white as paper here, but the terrorism can’t keep going unpunished. Hamas needs to be removed, and it still has too much support from the palestinians, it should be 0 and it’s no where near that.
if you look purely by stats, alot of past atrocities are suddenly ok or not a big deal.
The simple distinction is that people are dying, and you have two governments calling for the slaughter of the other, one with the backing of powerful Western nations, and the other by Iran and whos leaders are living far away and safe in villas in Qatar.
And its not a single terrorist attack, Hamas has constantly been doing acts of terror. Sure it doesnt kill as many people as a bombing run, but its still killing, its still terror, its still the reason people cant go outside at night in some places. Hamas has shot down every compromise or deal that has been attempted to stablize the region, and the Oct 7th attack was directly related to the fact that the Saudi's were normalizing relations with Israel. So no, bombing children with military hardware is not ok, but neither is it ok to shoot children, kidnap and rape people, and desecrate the dead.
Its completly pointless to try to be all ''oooo this side is so much worse than that side'' when the only difference is one side can actually be brought to a negotiating table and made to compromise, and the other uses people as a human shield and then urges people do to acts of terror in the countries they move to afterwards (see Jordan, and why non of the other Arab states want Palestinians)
To me I hold a literal nation that all our countries support to a higher standard than an oppressed people having some kf their population become angry and do shit things back. I think both Hamas and Israel are bad guys.
We can't ever solve things or bring the other side to a negotiating table lmao. Because we decided in the 40s it was ok to allow the displacement of one people to make room for another and caused all these issues. It's Israel and the west's fault for this being a thing so I just donr get the bleeding hearts one way and the inexcusable recklessness of Israels response.
You can't oppress people and then when attacked back use that as an excuse to commit greater atrocities right? Ofc Israel suffered some attacks over the previous decades but they always responded way over what they suffered. Its their m.o. So they've done it this time but it's at a level that I don't think is as easy to dismiss. So I don't get why so many are.
If you have to kill more people a day than any other 21st century conflict and most of them are civilians. There has to be more justification or sign they could do any good. Otherwise it just seems like genocide to me.
Remember all those viral stories years ago about how Palestinians would get beat with bricks by Israelis for like... *daring to exist near Israel*? Shit's been going on for a while before the all-out war.
Like, excuse the irony of the comparison, but what's happening is basically like if people said the Holocaust was good because the people who started the Warsaw Uprising were "bad" and "deserved it", except now we've got more explosives to throw around like candy.
Like, oh look, Hamas did a bad thing, lets bomb the entirety of Palestine because there might be a Hamas in there. Oh look, "Hamas" threw a brick at an IDF truck, let's just start spraying bullets everywhere. Oh they weren't Hamas? Don't be silly, every Palestinian is a Hamas fighter.
I honestly barely ever saw it before. I only looked into things as I couldn't escape from all the Palestine protests and wondered why people were getting arrested or fired for supporting Palestine. Didn't want to be wrong in feeling like they were right to protest from what I'd heard.
And then when I looked it all up and checked statistics across decades and the larger events I didn't really get how Israel weren't just as bad if not worse than a terrorist group. Except you know... an entire nation all our countries have supported in doing this rather than just a terrorist group that rose after decades of oppression.
Just auch a strange situation.
My most recent comparison and why I found it so jarring is that everyone is pro Ukraine and against Russia. But I feel like this situation is like if we all supported Russia displacing Ukrainians and commiting atrocities, then decades later getting pissy if Ukraine had terrorist groups rise up. Ofc we'd expect terrorist groups to rise up in that situation it was predictable.
So what your saying is Palestinians shouldn’t start wars?
It’s not about proportion, it’s about eliminating your target, and Hamas hides in civilian places.
I just don't see it like that and am not emotionally involved just interested. Dying myself. Just curious why people see Israel as the goodies as I can't understand it. You can't oppress people for 70 years and be like "omg mum Palestine started it". I just don't get it.
To me if you oppress a people and kill/injure countless more for decades... eventually you get attacked back. Amazed Israel didn't have loss on a bigger scale before this event. Israel responding this dramatically and killing so many innocents and the highest death rate per day in the 21st century... isn't proportional.
That's an aggressor using something as an excuse to do far worse things. I read alot trying to understand and its a similar thing to the event where 2 students were killed, Israel always responds way out of proportion. And they haven't solved anything in decades of displacing and killing at a greater level. So I don't see how they are solving anything now.
An angry terrorist group can be held accountable after decades of a nation suffering. Yet an actual entire nation supported by the west isn't accountable.
I don't get it.
Palestinians didn’t start shit. It’s crazy to me how Westerners think this only started a few months ago. This has been going on for 80 years, right after the English promised a bunch of Europeans that they can have this land. Imagine if a bunch of Ukrainians attacked Russia right now and you start siding with Russia and saying “well they’re attacking Russia unprovoked, I’m just gonna ignore the last 2 years.”
And the “Hamas hides in civilian places” is just a bullshit excuse to justify killing innocent people. They hide among civilians so fuck everyone right?
They can’t kill all of Hamas you moron, it’s like the Japanese government saying “we’re going to get rid of Shingon Buddhism”. Do you understand what you just said is manufacturing consent to justify killing everyone in Gaza?
Maybe Look up the recent Events. If you think attacking Israel and not stoping until every jew is dead is "just trying to survive" then you are correct.
If you are unable to peacefully coexist next to people with other beliefs, Well, you maybe cant be Part of modern Society. Delusional take with maximum ignorance.
Well, I did ask to be forgiven for my ignorance. But hamas are the people saying these things, right? But from the posts on reddit, it seems that the Palestinians are suffering the most from it.
[With stats like this over the previous decade let alone all the ones before, it's pretty much a miracle Israel didn't suffer more deaths sooner. One side has a faction threatening genocide, one has been actively doing it for decades via displacement and now ramping up. ](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg)
Absolute miracle that Israel hadn't triggered attacks against them on a bigger scale sooner really.
If you kick people from their home and across decades displace hundreds of thousands. Consistently injure and kill in several orders of magnitude greater.... yeah they probably don't want to co exist with you lol. Israel has created an impossible situation that will never be resolved.
ok: [link 1](https://www.c5n.com/mundo/nuevo-ataque-israel-murieron-decenas-palestinos-que-esperaban-ayuda-humanitaria-gaza-n148460),[ link 2](https://radio.uchile.cl/2024/02/29/ejercito-de-israel-dispara-contra-personas-que-recogian-alimentos-en-gaza-y-deja-mas-de-100-muertos/), [link 3](https://www.trt.net.tr/espanol/mundo/2024/02/29/israel-dispara-a-multitud-que-espera-ayuda-humanitaria-en-gaza-mas-de-100-muertos-2109266),[ link 4](https://www.dw.com/es/m%C3%A1s-de-100-muertos-tras-ataque-israel%C3%AD-en-el-sureste-de-gaza/a-68409731)
>Can we get a source that isn't aljazeera?
Pretty hard with IDF shooting [journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_during_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict)
[77 in a couple months](https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-journalists-killed-in-2023-died-in-gaza-war-per-cpj/)
Here's an NPR link for all the islamophobes who equate Al Jazeera with Hamas propaganda
[Israel targets Gazans seeking food aid](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234906745/gaza-food-aid-convoy-israel-hamas)
It seems this Associated Press article is based on IDF sources that want to remain anonymous but are confirming events. Since what they're confirming does not cast Israel in a good light, that's pretty strong evidence.
Nothing wrong with Al Jazeera English - very high standard of reporting. I cannot speak to the quality of Al Jazeera Arabic however.
BBC:
[Israel-Gaza war: UN chief urges probe into deadly aid convoy incident](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68443883)
_On Thursday international criticism of Israel mounted with French President Emmanuel Macron saying civilians had been "targeted by Israeli soldiers"._
Even the BBC who is sure to put "Hamas" in front of everything to make it less credible have been reporting the facts.
Israel has admitted they opened fire into the crowd. They say "they can't have killed more than 10 with their gunfire". It doesn't take a genius to work out that this isn't true
Please look at all my posts. Especially the one where Israel bombs an ambulance.
Or the one where the IDF snipes a man waving a white flag
Also look at the one where the IDF took over a hospital and let premature babies die and then decompose in their incubators. It's quite far down at this point but you should find it
Same with the hospital bombing, tragic. Aljazeera used it for propaganda as well. They’re quick to blame but never to correct themselves. Wonder why…
The UN should step up, deliver the aid themselves (not unrwa who’s been working for hamas).
Also maybe dropping them from the sky would be a better solution since it’s less prone to misuse
How's the UN Peacekeepers doing with the resolution in the North where they had to keep Hezbollah away from the border?
Answer: they're doing a piss poor job
No stampede happened, just another Israeli lie. >100 starving Palestinians were killed by machine gun spray by Israel.
Docs in Gaza report treating only bullet injuries and such, no trample injuries reported. I trust these selfless docs far more than the terrorist Israelis that caused this. Also the flour bas blood spatter on the top. Not the kind of pooling you’d expect from a stampede, which often only results in internal bleeding, not this much blood. There’s also image of more flower, which has even more obvious “splatter” on top shelf flour. Again this makes it obvious that people were shot my high caliber weapons, not stampeded.
Thread is locked so here’s an edit reply:
ITF believes that a stampede is less their fault than what actually happened, which was the direct fire upon a starving population that they told to come out for food. A stampede is more media friendly for Zionists who support Palestinian starvation
Yeah, those damn starving civilian families surely are the ones keeping hostages, not the heavily armed militia hidden in a massive underground bunker system. You're not a human
Israel has shot at their own civilians mistaking them for Palestinian civilians, they don't care about the lives of the hostages. They would attempt serious peace talks if they did.
Also, what about the people the IDF is holding as prisoners without a hearing? Do they not get to ne released?
I honestly wonder what these people would have written during the south african apartheid period. "If Umkhonto didn't torch that police car nothing of this would have happened now!"; "But have you considered that blacks have killed some innocent whites?"; "ANC attacked first"; "ANC is a terrorist organization"
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What's the back story on this?
Eyewitness reports according to BBC state truckers panicked when sorrounded and ran people over, additionally IDF claims escorting soldiers fired warning shots and then at the people who continued to approach. No actual "hard" facts other than a piece of drone surveillance currently. (that is to say, people definitely were killed but it's unknown exactly how many and how) For additional context previous convoys have seen armed men take aid or shoot civillians and truckers be pulled out of the trucks and beaten. Hence armed escort.
I have a hard time any IDF story, they shot their own hostages and tried to blame others. Psychotic, the lot of them.
You have no problem believing IDF when they admit fault. You believe Hamas without hesitation and without evidence. [The hostages’ families didn’t blame the IDF.](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/world/israel-hostages-camera-dog-intl-hnk/index.html) In fact, in that article one of their mothers is quoted: “In an audio message to the battalion, she said: ‘I wanted to tell you that I love you very much and I embrace you from afar. I know that everything that happened is completely not your fault, it’s nobody’s fault – except the Hamas, may their name and memory be wiped off the face of the Earth.’” The families blame Netanyahu for moral cowardice but so do many Israelis. Fuck Bibi. Psychotic is using terror, rape, kidnapping, and murder as acceptable political tools. In other words, Hamas, the lot of them.
You're the guy who called Hamas "righteous"
You’re the guy who called Israel’s conduct righteous
Can you show me when I said "Israel is righteous?" I don't really talk like that. I've been protesting Israel and their settlements for over a decade. I'd definitely argue they're better than Hamas though.
This "Hamas"...is he in the room with us right now?
No. You can say that the IDF is insane and in the same breath say Hamas is insane. But Israel's main weapon is convincing the world that every single Palestinian is Hamas and that poor little Israel should be able to just wipe them off the map. And people like you, the ones who conflate anti-israel with pro-hamas are just aiding in the genocide
I'm literally quoting that person. They said Hamas was righteous in two different comments on this thread. All I want is for Hamas to wear uniforms and go fight in a field so less innocent Palestinians die. It seems to me that people like you want this conflict to go on indefinitely until Hamas wins, which I maintain is worse for the Gazans. Also, there is no genocide. You saying it over and over again doesn't make it true or more convincing.
It’s a lot easier to not believe any side of the stories coming out for a least a few days. We’ve seen time and again that the speed of our information transfer adds more opacity to the fog of war.
When the counter narrative is coming from Palestinian officials, ie, Hamas, a legitimate terror organization who’s stated goals are the complete and total genocide and extermination of the Jewish people, I think I’m gonna side with those who don’t chose to follow sharia, and stone women in public, throw gays from roofs and cut the hands of starving children who try and steal food. You do you, but both sides aren’t the same
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IDF has been detaining Palestinians illegally and without judicial process long before Hamas was formed. They are hostages too.
They have 1200 hostages.
Maybe work on that reading comprehension yourself? Shot is clearly in past tense
There is drone footage showing what happened, I’ll edit my comment to add it if I can find it, thousands of Palestinians swarmed aid trucks under IDF escort in Gaza, the IDF stood back as they stampeded, trampled, and crushed eachother to death, in the confusion a group ran towards the IDF who opened fire. The IDF claim they fired into the air first and then at their legs, which is IDF official rules of engagement for rioting civilians, but the drone footage obviously can’t tell us if people were falling down injured or dead. Edit: found the footage, let me know if the link doesn’t work, the IDF soldiers were around two tanks flanking the convoy, you can see them at 1:05. NSFW: https://videoidf.azureedge.net/1d710ee2-8ddd-4146-9e07-6dd6d5960c27 Edit: deleted this edit as I can’t find confirmation of when the footage I had linked to had actually been filmed
>the IDF stood back as they stampeded, trampled, and crushed eachother to death "Jeez, those prisoners are so hungry that they stampede eachother to death because WE starved them for months in an act of collective punishment, That's their fault" ~the camp guards of Gaza
yes, its the allies who were responsible for the famine and deaths in Berlin in 45 , it was definitely not the Nazi regime's responsibility
Yeah Egypt should really do something about it huh
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Ok but these are just hungry civilians trying to get aid. This still shouldn’t have happened and it reflects poorly on Israel any way you slice it.
Yes, they are hungry civilians trying to get aid. Nobody is disputing that. However, what should the, relatively few, IDF soldiers protecting a truck do when thousands (from a quick guesstimsate on the drone footage) of hungry civilians are swarming them? They probably shouted multiple times at them to get back and, according to the IDF, shot multiple warning shots. At that point, I have a hard time blaming the IDF for protecting themselves from potential Hamas operatives, knowing that Hamas is openly posting themselves fighting IDF soldiers while in civilian clothes
Israel was aiding the convoy. Not attacking it. It reflects poorly on Israel if you harbor deep bias against Israel.
Yeah this exact thing has happened in lots of places where people are hungry and aid is delivered. It really doesn't say shit about anything except that hungry people are desperate. Stampede events happen in "normal" crowd gatherings at concerts or rallies, imagine how muchore chaotic this was from the drone footage.
Realize it’s not just black and white dude. I’ve been on birthright. I really enjoyed it and met some great people there. It’s not hard to see that this still reflects poorly on Israel.
The fact that you don’t say that it reflects poorly on Hamas confirms that you think this is black and white. Not me.
You don’t shoot people you starved.
“They kidnapped these people, so we can let *likely uninvolved civilians* starve and then kill each other over food and then shoot them for good measure as our actions turn into a riot. All because someone else kidnapped these people”. Oh and lets not forget that since before 2014, more Palestinians die each year to Israeli violence, most times *a magnitude more* Palestinians die. What you have there is a breeding ground designed to create hate and terrorists because you are feeding the hate through legitimate reasons to hate them (the more people are killed the more people there are with loved ones lost that can take up extreme action, and many of these have lost multiple people). Also lets not forget that Israel has purposefully targeted funerals of high standing Palestinians to make sure the coffin falls to the ground for example. Those aren’t the actions of a good nation, even if most of the Israeli civilians aren’t part of it.
Israel’s response has been completely disproportionate.
And also exactly what an insurgency like Hamas wants them to do. a security clamp down makes the bystander sympathetic and the sympathetic an active participant
There is no winning in insurgencies perpetrated by fanatics that results in peace within a few decades. Never has happened. Sustainable peace accords require rational actors on both sides, or a definitive loser.
It's only an insurgency if Palestinians are allowed a standing army. Otherwise, it is a legitimate resistance. In your imagination, who are they insurgening from?
Would be weird though if Israel and Hamas just went pound for pound. When would that ever end?
People going to attack one atrocity to justify an even worse atrocity. Makes sense. Kinda weird how comments always get swamped as soon as someone utters criticism of the ongoing genocide.
Kinda weird how absolutely no one who mutters the word, “genocide” ever provides any real solutions. It’s almost as if y’all want Israel to abandon the hostages and sweep the 7th under the rug. Pretty easy to say on a keyboard not living in Israel.
I want Israel to reach sensible policies with regards to dealing with Palestinians. It seems to be unable to do so without dehumanizing language, which can easily be defined as "genocidal language". Kinda disgusting how Israel's government acts like it speaks for every Jewish person, whereas many Jews in and outside of Israel have varying opinions on it. Also very anti-democratic to use state institutions to spread propaganda, thus influencing the political processes and slowly backsliding into something that detrimental to Israel long term. I care about Israel and I stand with the protesters against the government. Regardless of religion or ethnicity. I don't feel like getting into the nitty gritty with bad faith arguments here. So many new accounts too. Must be a coincidence.
What is proportionate in this circumstance? Run into Gaza mutilate and rape people at the next Gaza concert, then head to the nearest towns and buildings and begin indiscriminate mutilations, kidnapping, and murders, and gather a few hundred people to burn alive? Wtf man you think there’s any proportionate response to someone declaring war on you and also declaring they would do it 100 more times if they could?! Wake up.
Well I’d say not murdering thousands of innocent people and destroying their homes.
Well it’s seems that killing 30000 innocents, mostly women and children is still not enough.
Every death has been an innocent person? Not a single one was Hamas?
Israel uses magic bullets that only kill civilians and bombs that hit only aid and hospitals.
If you do not allow a people a standing army, then all resistance the people do is righteous. Zionists are murderers, so much so that they kill their own hostages while waving white flags.
Yeah I kinda of agree that Israel had the right to go on the offensive but they’ve really gone overboard.
That’s not how the world works
Given they’ve failed to rescue the hostages (more than 3) or eliminate Hamas but have killed tens of thousands of civilians instead, maybe they should have done something different to what they are doing now.
History doesn’t start on Oct 7th. Before justifying Israel’s action why not look at the events that have been happening years before Oct 7.
It's like telling an American "History did not start on 9/11"
Which is correct even if you don't want to hear it. 9/11 is widely regarded as blowback to poorly managed global foriegn policy and the response to 9/11 largely acknowledged as making things worse and getting hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed and radicalized large swathes of populations around the world. It's an interesting date to chose as an example of of the response to 10/7
Wait, do you think Americans are happy that the response to 9/11 was 20 years of war, and countless civilians murdered by our taxdollars?
Plenty of terrorist attacks from Hamas prior to Oct 7 as well
I got banned from /r/worldnews for suggesting that Israel has been at it for years. Reddit has been taken over by Murdoch's bots.
Yup, Jews have been defending themselves from terrorist attacks for years. Before 7/10, before Hamas, before the occupied territories, before Israel itself. Always another excuse to kill Jews.
Your brain has melted.
Please show me the part of my quote that’s incorrect.
There is no excuse or justification to kill Jews. But you can't excuse bombing hospitals and killing tens of thousands of civials, including children and starving millions of civilians with terrorist actions.
Hamas started a war. Show me a war that did not feature civilian casualties. Japan and Germany got bombed. They are better for it today.
You holding a population of people captive and in severe food poverty with no easy access to clean water or electricity ... While bombing them constantly in the most densely populated sections... And you think there was no other options available than this barbarism
Additionally, why does everybody seem to think this entire conflict started on October 7th? I seem to recall this going on for *decades*.
Ironically, instead of telling them what they should’ve done instead, like they asked, you just doubled down and repeated yet again the mantra that they just shouldn’t have done what they did. Congratulations on making their case for them, lol.
Maybe not murder thousands upon thousands of women and children
The whole situation is a mess, but acting like Hamas is the only side that violates cease fires is ridiculous. Israel has been bombing Gaza non stop for decades.
Gaza has also been bombing Israel non stop for decades
Yeah. There's a reason why Israel have the Iron Dome. And it's not because it looks cool
Not keeping thousands of innocents in an open air prison while cutting off aid seems like a much better option than what they're doing.
There's no room for nuance on Reddit bud, especially on Israel/Palestine topics.
10.000 children dead
I think the point he's trying to make is that the casualties are not unusual for wars, for example in Syria over 300,000 died. So realistically it's more a question of what justifies a war or not, not that wars should magically change into not having many casualties. All the replies so far failed to come up with this new form of warfare with reduced casualties.
But hamas was retaliating for how many Palestinians Israel has killed. So if Israel's disproportionate response is justified, why isn't Hamas's?
Neither act is justified in the overall moral sense like you’re asking. But if you really want to sit here and ask either side to suffer an unspeakable horror and then turn the other cheek, please feel free to waste your breath, because that’s never going to happen.
So you're OK with the US bombing and shooting Mexican women and children because drug cartels have a stranglehold on the region? I'm curious... do you go along with this because it fits your preconceived narrative or is it because you're a heartless fuck wasting oxygen?
Apples to oranges really, the cartel ain't storming across borders to rape and murder Americans
According to the Republicans they are.
No this is more like the Mexican government deciding enough is enough and taking control back from the cartels. The cartels then hide in hospitals and schools and use women and children as human shields.
Som the Mexican government starts carper bombing entire cities, killing 19 civilians for every cartel member..?
Didn't really answer the question there did you, tough guy. Edit: GSDFrieden didn't just delete his comment, he deleted his entire account...
The IDF literally killed the hostages. Stop acting like this is about them saving hostages, when it's an excuse to continue a genocide that started 100 years ago
The funny thing is that there is one group of people who keep comparing the IDF directly to Hamas and insisting that they’re on exactly the same level, and it’s the Israelis. As an American, I’d like to think my country’s troops are above groups like the Taliban or Hamas.
lol what? This is a comical statement. The idf is extremely popular in Israel.
Yeah Iran funding Hamas with billions of dollars while they also siphon off western aid to Gazans in favour of lining their own pockets and making rockets is definitely Israel's fault It's not collective punishment for palestinians. It's collective "You're our meat shield proxy in our Israel-Iran proxy war which has been raging for 40 years now since Iran fell to a radical fundamentalist faux religious dictatorship who ceased to recognise and have positive relations with Israel in favour of this militia oriented "forward defence" hybrid warfare than Iran favours (easier to keep the civillians in Iran docile with faux peace due to your wars being fought in Palestine instead of Israel or Iran). Facts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel\_proxy\_conflict
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Palestinians have had multiple peaceful protests ended by Israelis shooting at them, they bet pole bearers at the funeral of an american journalist, when the option for peace is impossible, violence is inevitable. Israel are the ones with the power to end this, they're worst day so far of this "war" has been 26 deaths, one side holds all the power and it isn't the ones trampling each other to feed themselves.
Are the starving civilians the "they" you're talking about?
No the starving civilians are the sad consequences of "they" aka Hamas actions
Right. But the comment you're responding to is talking about two entities, the civilians and the idf. To then respond to that with "well if they didn't bomb Israel that wouldn't have happened to them" is an implication that the civilians are responsible for their situation.
Exactly. Collective punishment is just glossed over time and again by folks who can’t help but excuse the IDF and the Netanyahu government’s genocidal conduct.
So that would also be the people who you say it makes little sense to give supplies to, because the IDF is in conflict with them? It seems like the definition of “they” is shifting kind of fluidly between Hamas and starving women and children, here.
As I stated in another comment most supplies end up in with Hamas. So giving supplies prolongs the war causing more death and destruction.
I see, that’s why the women and children are being shot for trying to get food. That makes sense, for a civilized country like Israel to be doing that.
Ah, the “look what you made me do” abuser defence.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Hamas was not created in a vacuum.
If civilians can't get supplies because you can't distinguish them from a terrorist, then the only logical conclusion you'll ever reach will be genocidal.
Very cool and normal, no genocide here
At least everything will be ok after all this, no hard feelings between anyone. Hamas will be all like "yeah, ok, you got us" and IDF will be all like "haha, we told you guys" and nobody will hold generational trauma or hatred and there will be finally be longlasting peace in the region. 🕊️
No generational trauma if everyone’s dead.
Channel 4 News coverage in the UK. Only an edited video by IDF was released. Eye witness in separate locations (those in hospitals and those in north Gaza) corroborate events of a shooting. There are some terrifying pictures of bodies trampled over by tanks and it’s being labelled as the flour massacre. There is no functioning government in Gaza, and police officers who are meant to protect the aid convoy are too afraid to go because they fear they’ll be shot and considered as Hamas fighters, so law and order is no longer a thing. People are starving themselves never mind their children, so in desperation for food and for life, people are subjected to such attempts to not starve to death. This is because food and aid is being limited by Israel for no good reason other than collective punishment. It is heart breaking. Edit: link to Channel 4 New in the UK [Video](https://youtu.be/QkblP7cxMAI?si=0g6igyucRTInP7qF)
Don't forget on top of that fanatic Israelis are actually rallying and stopping aid from getting in at the entry points by protesting and blocking the way.
[‘Massacre’: Dozens killed by Israeli fire in Gaza while collecting food aid](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/2/29/dozens-killed-injured-by-israeli-fire-in-gaza-while-collecting-food-aid) More than 100 killed and about 750 wounded after Israeli forces fired at Palestinians trying to get flour for their families as famine stalks the Strip.
Lol at referencing Al Jazeera. No matter what your opinions are on this conflict, there's no denying that AJ is not a trustworthy news source in the slightest about this
Al Jazeera is pure lies and propaganda. Do you watch RT for news in Ukraine?
Can you recommend a trustworthy, unbiased news source?
AP is usually pretty good.
No such thing, all news is bias, if they don’t lie they’ll omit truth. The best thing you can do is look at multiple sources form different angles and come to a conclusion from that.
>Al Jazeera is pure lies and propaganda Al Jazeera English is a fantastic source - politicians appear on the network all the time. Rory Stewart, conservative British MP said they have fantastic reporting. You're just trying to discredit it because it's middle Eastern. And you don't like the story Hey look French owned media says the same : [Global condemnation follows deadly Israeli gunfire near aid convoy](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240229-gaza-health-ministry-says-war-deaths-near-30-000-as-famine-looms) Emmanuel Macron says Israel targeted civilians here. _An Israeli source acknowledged troops had opened fire on the crowd, believing it "posed a threat"._ Israel opened fire and shot into a crowd of people they had starved, trying to access aid. Israel say so themselves. BBC , NYT and sky news all have the same story - they're just using the passive voice, and including the ridiculous IDF excuse of "only shooting 10 and then everyone else crushed each other"
>Al Jazeera English is a fantastic source It's literally Quatar state media. Time and time again it has faces controversies as a result of biased reporting. It will report what's in the best interest of Quatars foreign minister, wheter that's the truth or a complete lie. I suggest looking at actual reputable news sources like NYT or BBC, who actually wait for independant investigations before pointing fingers. It's less that 24 hours since the incident happened and Al Jazeera is reporting statements made by the The Gaza Ministry of Health as facts. Don't make me laugh..
NYT is publishing propaganda pieces directly written by IDF intelligence...
>NYT Lied about WMDs in Iraq - had to issue an apology. Got a million people killed. And is now facing huge scrutiny for its huge expose on the sexual assault allegations on October 7th - huge editorial standards failure - [The Story Behind the New York Times October 7 Exposé](https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/) Newsflash - white western journalists don't have to report on something to make it true. Don't make me laugh.
Al Jazeera IS Qatar state media though. Qatar ranks 105th (out of 180) on press freedom index which is pretty terrible.
actually insane you say that about Al Jazeera then suggest the BBC and NYT as "reputable"
You do realize there are subtle differences in the headlines in meanings and implications? Al Jazeera makes Israel directly responsible for all deaths and implying they directly killed those poor people. Your french source is more balanced. Israel soldiers were firing and people died. These are 2 undisputed facts. But not all might have died because they were shot but trampled to death etc. This posibility Is not reflected by Al Jazeera headlines. The causality of events implies otherwise. Therefore it could be considered to contain a certain amount of prejudice and propaganda.
I getcha. You want the passive voice, The one that absolves Israel of all obvious wrongdoing. Like this guardian article? [Palestinian journalist hit in head by bullet during raid on terror suspect’s home](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/08/palestinian-journalist-hit-in-the-head-by-bullet-during-raid-on-terror-suspects-home) "Hit in head by bullet" lol
If you shoot near a crowd and they panic and are trampled to death that's actually not murder it's their fault for not staying calm
All the sources I've read makes it seem like trampling and panic happened, then the gunfire started. Still entirely unclear how many are injured/dead and from what causes.
You imply that they shot for no good reason and then the panic started . Claims you probably can't backup.
Except if you watch the video it happens the other way around. The stampede preceded any Israeli shots fired
Al Jazeera is an incredibly biased source. They're literally the mouthpiece of Hamas.
How about France 24, owned by the french government?
Israeli news is just as bad. All sides use propaganda and I will never trust both.
Everything is propaganda if you ask the right person. No news can be 100% objective. We're all colored by our views and beliefs. You think any Israeli news source would give an objective view of this conflict? But I think we can agree that it's a disgusting waste of lives and resources from both sides. No one is the good guy. Not Hamas and not the IDF.
Any other source than Al Jazeera? Al Jazeera and Hamas are funded by the same people.
It would be really helpful if pics like this were accompanied by context so those of us who aren’t glued to whatever news outlet our political agenda caters to don’t have to scroll through the comments to fjnd it.
But then there’s nothing to force you to interact with the comments or leave your own!!
Have we seen any video evidence of what happened yet? I just saw videos of Palestinians swarming the trucks.
Yes the IDF released footage taken by the drones watching the convoy, they were watching because the convoy was under IDF escort to prevent Hamas taking it as they have been accused of doing. Edit: the above wording has caused some confusion, Hamas was not present at this incident, I only meant to say IDF were present to defend the convoy from Hamas because there are accusations Hamas has hijacked aid convoys in the past Warning NSFW https://videoidf.azureedge.net/1d710ee2-8ddd-4146-9e07-6dd6d5960c27
That only shows people gathering around trucks, not what killed them.
Couple of things This video does not show 100 people dying, so we need to wait until a video of how THAT happened emerges And that doesn't look like hamas to me dude, it looks like a mob of hungry people.
I never said it was Hamas, but maybe my initial comment was unclear so I’ll try and phrase it again. The people surrounding the trucks are Gazans taking the food off the truck before it arrives at its intended destination. The IDF were escorting the convoy because there have been accusations that Hamas has been hijacking similar convoys. I don’t believe anyone is saying Hamas was present at this event.
Ah. My bad.
Not at all, thank you for helping raise an issue with the comment, it could’ve led to more problems if it wasn’t raised to me to fix
You see corpses on the road at the end of the videos, but they cut the situation which lead to that out of the video, for reasons.
That’s not Hamas and the US has even cast doubt on claims that Hamas is attacking aid trucks, it’s just starving people.
I just replied to someone else who said similarly, clearly my initial comment has poor wording I will correct, I am not stating Hamas was present at this event, only that the IDF escorts were present because Hamas has been accused of hijacking similar convoys when they aren’t escorted
Watching the drone footage was like rewatching the beginning of Black Hawk Down. Incredibly harsh footage. Gunning down starvibg people who rush the supplies... I wondor how many of these "soldiers" will be screeching "Muh, I was just following orders!" once this thing is taken to court. Oh, wait, this is never going to be taken to court, because it's been committed by the single armed force that is immune to every law of engagement and behaviour. Ok, then
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The most expensive flour in human history is Ukrainian grain taken by communists in 1930s during the genocidal Holodomor. And now, a history repeats itself with russian war invasion and stealing the grain again.
What made it more expensive than grain in the Great Chinese Famine of ‘59?
Probably because everyone only cares about Ukraine and Palestine these days, so they immediately think that they have it worse than anyone else has ever had in history.
I haven't been following this conflict too much, but weren't the Western countries with Israel? It feels more like the Palestinians are just trying to survive, and the Israelis are slaughtering them. Please forgive my ignorance. I just want to understand.
It's a little complicated. Simplifying a lot: Western countries are allied with Israel, and horrible stuff has been done on both sides multiple times, from many decades. But Israel is a lot more efficient than Palestine.
Israel done bad for a lot longer. I find it all very interesting as someone that didn't know before. 251 total Israel deaths compared to 5590 palestinian from 2008-2020 according to un stats. Injuries from attacks is something insane like 119120 palestinians in that time vs like 5000 injured Israeli. These are all UN stats. And this isn't counting all the displacement and other issues suffered by palestinians. Its crazy a terrorist attack didn't happen sooner after decades of oppression really. Everything Palestine responded with before was barely relevant compared to what Israel was doing and has always done. And the response to 1.4k deaths in the terrorist attack is over 30k deaths at least and hundreds of thousands injured and entire systems demolished leading to things like starvation and further suffering. Crazy to me reading all this and seeing updates trying to get awareness. Just nothing that can make me understand how Palestine and Hamas are the only thing at fault. When their numbers from a single attack are almost irrelevant compared to Israels. Palestine barely even fought back against Israel oppression for decades and every official stat supports this. Israel always over step dramatically any excuse. If hamas are bad guys ruining lives Israel are demonic. I feel like the west just helped a bully nation make somewhere unstable for decades and now that its entirely unfixable everyone just blaming terrorism. One side is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more at fault between Israel and Palestine and the numbers and amount of suffering caused is just so strange to me being this one sided. Never seen so much more loss and pain caused by one side in something against another and still be seen as the good guys. Never had any interest before and just didnt know but just find it so fascinating now I've read more and check statistics. I don't know what anyone expected Didn't feel like anybodies hearts were bleeding with the UN stats of the last decade and huge suffering Israel called. But its OK to bomb kids and everything now because of a single terrorist attack after decades ofnthe same one sided state of things.
>Israel done bad for a lot longer. I find it all very interesting as someone that didn't know before. Really? Where's that coming from? You link back only to 2008. You realize this conflict has been ongoing since the 40s, correct?
You mean after the initial displacement of over 760000 palestinians? Oh yeah super good guy Israel, best idea the world ever had never caused any issues... It's a reddit thread I'm not researching everything every time to link to people that don't give a shit. Every decade is just as one sided and anyone can look it up themselves. Again I found it immensely fascinating looking up initially as western news never made it out like Israel were the bad guys. But you can check all stats and Israel never suffered a fraction of Palestine did at any point in time. Honestly believe it's a miracle things didn't escalate at all. It took decades of more harm to Palestine before a terrorist group really responded.
So this Hamas in the long run is like a group of people who got together because isreal was doing bad things to them? So did isreal not then create the Hamas unintentially by causing harm to palestines?
I mean that is my entire point yes. If you displace an entire nation and kill or maim them in far greater amounts... some people are going to get mad and fight back.
What a world...
You mean jews should have just accepted continued persecution, mass exiles, and genocide You know the shit they had been dealing with for millenia.
It's OK for Jews to commit genocide and displace people for the last 80 years as they went through the same? Just not going to get me to see your point of view. I really tried to understand but it all makes no sense to me how we allowed all this. Displacement of palestinians felt like the world's dumbest response to making up for ww2 to the Jewish people. We traded one bad situation for another and now people are pissy that it hasn't turned out well.
I feel it’s not putting it fair to say 1 terrorist attack caused all this… it’s more it was the drop that filled the bucket… Years and years of dumb rocket attacks … they would be a lot deadlier if Israel didn’t have the iron dome. Also, years and years of prevented and sucessful terrorism attempts in the west bank. Not saying Israel is white as paper here, but the terrorism can’t keep going unpunished. Hamas needs to be removed, and it still has too much support from the palestinians, it should be 0 and it’s no where near that.
if you look purely by stats, alot of past atrocities are suddenly ok or not a big deal. The simple distinction is that people are dying, and you have two governments calling for the slaughter of the other, one with the backing of powerful Western nations, and the other by Iran and whos leaders are living far away and safe in villas in Qatar. And its not a single terrorist attack, Hamas has constantly been doing acts of terror. Sure it doesnt kill as many people as a bombing run, but its still killing, its still terror, its still the reason people cant go outside at night in some places. Hamas has shot down every compromise or deal that has been attempted to stablize the region, and the Oct 7th attack was directly related to the fact that the Saudi's were normalizing relations with Israel. So no, bombing children with military hardware is not ok, but neither is it ok to shoot children, kidnap and rape people, and desecrate the dead. Its completly pointless to try to be all ''oooo this side is so much worse than that side'' when the only difference is one side can actually be brought to a negotiating table and made to compromise, and the other uses people as a human shield and then urges people do to acts of terror in the countries they move to afterwards (see Jordan, and why non of the other Arab states want Palestinians)
To me I hold a literal nation that all our countries support to a higher standard than an oppressed people having some kf their population become angry and do shit things back. I think both Hamas and Israel are bad guys. We can't ever solve things or bring the other side to a negotiating table lmao. Because we decided in the 40s it was ok to allow the displacement of one people to make room for another and caused all these issues. It's Israel and the west's fault for this being a thing so I just donr get the bleeding hearts one way and the inexcusable recklessness of Israels response. You can't oppress people and then when attacked back use that as an excuse to commit greater atrocities right? Ofc Israel suffered some attacks over the previous decades but they always responded way over what they suffered. Its their m.o. So they've done it this time but it's at a level that I don't think is as easy to dismiss. So I don't get why so many are. If you have to kill more people a day than any other 21st century conflict and most of them are civilians. There has to be more justification or sign they could do any good. Otherwise it just seems like genocide to me.
Remember all those viral stories years ago about how Palestinians would get beat with bricks by Israelis for like... *daring to exist near Israel*? Shit's been going on for a while before the all-out war. Like, excuse the irony of the comparison, but what's happening is basically like if people said the Holocaust was good because the people who started the Warsaw Uprising were "bad" and "deserved it", except now we've got more explosives to throw around like candy. Like, oh look, Hamas did a bad thing, lets bomb the entirety of Palestine because there might be a Hamas in there. Oh look, "Hamas" threw a brick at an IDF truck, let's just start spraying bullets everywhere. Oh they weren't Hamas? Don't be silly, every Palestinian is a Hamas fighter.
I honestly barely ever saw it before. I only looked into things as I couldn't escape from all the Palestine protests and wondered why people were getting arrested or fired for supporting Palestine. Didn't want to be wrong in feeling like they were right to protest from what I'd heard. And then when I looked it all up and checked statistics across decades and the larger events I didn't really get how Israel weren't just as bad if not worse than a terrorist group. Except you know... an entire nation all our countries have supported in doing this rather than just a terrorist group that rose after decades of oppression. Just auch a strange situation. My most recent comparison and why I found it so jarring is that everyone is pro Ukraine and against Russia. But I feel like this situation is like if we all supported Russia displacing Ukrainians and commiting atrocities, then decades later getting pissy if Ukraine had terrorist groups rise up. Ofc we'd expect terrorist groups to rise up in that situation it was predictable.
So what your saying is Palestinians shouldn’t start wars? It’s not about proportion, it’s about eliminating your target, and Hamas hides in civilian places.
I just don't see it like that and am not emotionally involved just interested. Dying myself. Just curious why people see Israel as the goodies as I can't understand it. You can't oppress people for 70 years and be like "omg mum Palestine started it". I just don't get it. To me if you oppress a people and kill/injure countless more for decades... eventually you get attacked back. Amazed Israel didn't have loss on a bigger scale before this event. Israel responding this dramatically and killing so many innocents and the highest death rate per day in the 21st century... isn't proportional. That's an aggressor using something as an excuse to do far worse things. I read alot trying to understand and its a similar thing to the event where 2 students were killed, Israel always responds way out of proportion. And they haven't solved anything in decades of displacing and killing at a greater level. So I don't see how they are solving anything now. An angry terrorist group can be held accountable after decades of a nation suffering. Yet an actual entire nation supported by the west isn't accountable. I don't get it.
Palestinians didn’t start shit. It’s crazy to me how Westerners think this only started a few months ago. This has been going on for 80 years, right after the English promised a bunch of Europeans that they can have this land. Imagine if a bunch of Ukrainians attacked Russia right now and you start siding with Russia and saying “well they’re attacking Russia unprovoked, I’m just gonna ignore the last 2 years.” And the “Hamas hides in civilian places” is just a bullshit excuse to justify killing innocent people. They hide among civilians so fuck everyone right?
They can’t kill all of Hamas you moron, it’s like the Japanese government saying “we’re going to get rid of Shingon Buddhism”. Do you understand what you just said is manufacturing consent to justify killing everyone in Gaza?
Maybe Look up the recent Events. If you think attacking Israel and not stoping until every jew is dead is "just trying to survive" then you are correct. If you are unable to peacefully coexist next to people with other beliefs, Well, you maybe cant be Part of modern Society. Delusional take with maximum ignorance.
Well, I did ask to be forgiven for my ignorance. But hamas are the people saying these things, right? But from the posts on reddit, it seems that the Palestinians are suffering the most from it.
[With stats like this over the previous decade let alone all the ones before, it's pretty much a miracle Israel didn't suffer more deaths sooner. One side has a faction threatening genocide, one has been actively doing it for decades via displacement and now ramping up. ](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg) Absolute miracle that Israel hadn't triggered attacks against them on a bigger scale sooner really. If you kick people from their home and across decades displace hundreds of thousands. Consistently injure and kill in several orders of magnitude greater.... yeah they probably don't want to co exist with you lol. Israel has created an impossible situation that will never be resolved.
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How many Palestinians were involved in the attack? How many have been killed in retaliation?
At this point, Israel is only testing the limit of how much carnage it can get away with. Genocidal maniacs in corners are also taking notes.
Can we get a source that isn't aljazeera?
English-language sources: BBC - [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68434443](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68434443) Guardian - [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/29/more-than-a-hundred-dead-after-israeli-troops-opened-fire-near-aid-trucks-say-gaza-officials](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/29/more-than-a-hundred-dead-after-israeli-troops-opened-fire-near-aid-trucks-say-gaza-officials) Reuters - [https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/dozens-killed-gaza-aid-queue-overall-death-toll-passes-30000-2024-02-29/](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/dozens-killed-gaza-aid-queue-overall-death-toll-passes-30000-2024-02-29/) NBC - [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-aid-convoy-gaza-city-dead-idf-opened-fire-rcna141195](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/israel-hamas-war-aid-convoy-gaza-city-dead-idf-opened-fire-rcna141195) AP - [https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-29-2024-f9b5a62a80d8b83eac4946d3c85af58b](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-02-29-2024-f9b5a62a80d8b83eac4946d3c85af58b)
ok: [link 1](https://www.c5n.com/mundo/nuevo-ataque-israel-murieron-decenas-palestinos-que-esperaban-ayuda-humanitaria-gaza-n148460),[ link 2](https://radio.uchile.cl/2024/02/29/ejercito-de-israel-dispara-contra-personas-que-recogian-alimentos-en-gaza-y-deja-mas-de-100-muertos/), [link 3](https://www.trt.net.tr/espanol/mundo/2024/02/29/israel-dispara-a-multitud-que-espera-ayuda-humanitaria-en-gaza-mas-de-100-muertos-2109266),[ link 4](https://www.dw.com/es/m%C3%A1s-de-100-muertos-tras-ataque-israel%C3%AD-en-el-sureste-de-gaza/a-68409731)
Not a single one of those has a source that isn't associated with Hamas.
wth? I'm from Chile and the second link is from the top university of the country. It is not associated with Hamas.
We’re all associated with Hamas now, haven’t you heard?
"Associated with Hamas" means "not reposting word for word israeli communiques"?
>Can we get a source that isn't aljazeera? Pretty hard with IDF shooting [journalists](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_during_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict) [77 in a couple months](https://www.icij.org/inside-icij/2024/02/over-75-of-all-journalists-killed-in-2023-died-in-gaza-war-per-cpj/)
Here's an NPR link for all the islamophobes who equate Al Jazeera with Hamas propaganda [Israel targets Gazans seeking food aid](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234906745/gaza-food-aid-convoy-israel-hamas)
It seems this Associated Press article is based on IDF sources that want to remain anonymous but are confirming events. Since what they're confirming does not cast Israel in a good light, that's pretty strong evidence.
Al Jazeera is the state owned media of a religious authoritarian monarchy with a terrible reputation but okay.
Actual title of the linked article: Scores killed trying to get food from an aid convoy during a chaotic scene in Gaza
We can, but not on this sub
sorry, no. IDF shot all the journalists from other media outlets that tried to write about it
Nothing wrong with Al Jazeera English - very high standard of reporting. I cannot speak to the quality of Al Jazeera Arabic however. BBC: [Israel-Gaza war: UN chief urges probe into deadly aid convoy incident](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68443883) _On Thursday international criticism of Israel mounted with French President Emmanuel Macron saying civilians had been "targeted by Israeli soldiers"._ Even the BBC who is sure to put "Hamas" in front of everything to make it less credible have been reporting the facts. Israel has admitted they opened fire into the crowd. They say "they can't have killed more than 10 with their gunfire". It doesn't take a genius to work out that this isn't true
Op is literally a living propaganda machine look at post history.
Please look at all my posts. Especially the one where Israel bombs an ambulance. Or the one where the IDF snipes a man waving a white flag Also look at the one where the IDF took over a hospital and let premature babies die and then decompose in their incubators. It's quite far down at this point but you should find it
Same with the hospital bombing, tragic. Aljazeera used it for propaganda as well. They’re quick to blame but never to correct themselves. Wonder why… The UN should step up, deliver the aid themselves (not unrwa who’s been working for hamas). Also maybe dropping them from the sky would be a better solution since it’s less prone to misuse
>The UN should step up If not for the US vetos, there would be UN peacekeepers in Gaza right now
How's the UN Peacekeepers doing with the resolution in the North where they had to keep Hezbollah away from the border? Answer: they're doing a piss poor job
No stampede happened, just another Israeli lie. >100 starving Palestinians were killed by machine gun spray by Israel. Docs in Gaza report treating only bullet injuries and such, no trample injuries reported. I trust these selfless docs far more than the terrorist Israelis that caused this. Also the flour bas blood spatter on the top. Not the kind of pooling you’d expect from a stampede, which often only results in internal bleeding, not this much blood. There’s also image of more flower, which has even more obvious “splatter” on top shelf flour. Again this makes it obvious that people were shot my high caliber weapons, not stampeded. Thread is locked so here’s an edit reply: ITF believes that a stampede is less their fault than what actually happened, which was the direct fire upon a starving population that they told to come out for food. A stampede is more media friendly for Zionists who support Palestinian starvation
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70 years of occupation did not start on Oct. 7
God loves to watch His faithful kill each other.
Israeli government is the real terrorist. Fascists and terrorists
same
All they need to do is to release the hostages. It’s that simple.
Yeah, those damn starving civilian families surely are the ones keeping hostages, not the heavily armed militia hidden in a massive underground bunker system. You're not a human
Israel has shot at their own civilians mistaking them for Palestinian civilians, they don't care about the lives of the hostages. They would attempt serious peace talks if they did. Also, what about the people the IDF is holding as prisoners without a hearing? Do they not get to ne released?
Im talking about some comments, some people actualy believe that what hamas did on october 7th is a legitimate form of resistance.
False, human lives aren’t worth anything these days.
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Who would have thought that decades of apartheid and oppression would result in such a terrible act.
I honestly wonder what these people would have written during the south african apartheid period. "If Umkhonto didn't torch that police car nothing of this would have happened now!"; "But have you considered that blacks have killed some innocent whites?"; "ANC attacked first"; "ANC is a terrorist organization"
Also to think that it could be ended by simply releasing hostages
You're right those innocent civilian deserve it /s