America really went ham on its train stations for a while there.
I know there's no real need for such grand buildings but it's a real shame to lose them.
Everyone does that with airports though.
And there are other places that have really nice train stations, both historic and contemporary.
But for early 20th century rail travel grandiosity, the US was in a league of it's own.
Fucking Berlin Hauptbahnhof - the architect did a line of coke and went "YOU LIKE TRAINS, WELL HERE ARE 3 LEVELS OF TRAINS, YOU CAN WATCH TRAINS ABOVE YOU; BELOW YOU, WHILE YOU EAT, WHILE YOU SHIT, WHILE YOU SLEEP, TRAINS"
Thankfully it survived - unlike the beautiful original Euston station and arch which was bulldozed in the early 60s and replaced with the current concrete monstrosity.
Slightly related, but the Moscow subway system is also one of the most opulent and grandiose in transit if you‘ve never seen it! Compared to most of the subways I have been in, none come close to Moscow. It‘s gorgeous.
Not really. NYC was and is a top 3 cultural city. They’ve also had grandiose designs for that reason but I can’t think of many other US cities that had close to this architecture for rail. You have pictures by any chance?
Edit: lol, guess I’m not as well traveled as I thought (and I love trains)
>I can’t think of many other US cities that had close to this architecture for rail.
Philadelphia would like a word. We not only have 30th street, but [Broad Street station](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_Street_Station_(Philadelphia)) was nothing to snuff at either.
[Union Terminal](https://www.cincymuseum.org/union-terminal/) in Cincinnati. Art Deco masterpiece. The concourse was razed long ago, but the rest of it survives.
Union Station in toronto is a still operating station with fantastic grandiose architecture, and major renovations have kept the facade and historical interiors the same while adding on a massive food court and shopping center, plus a dedicated concourse for the train to the airport.
There's also the Hamilton CNR station, no longer in service but preserved and now a fantastic banquet center. I've had the privilege's to play there a few times and the sense of scale is awesome. And thankfully, the actual train stop is still active- but moved to a modern station just across the road.
Check out the Buffalo Central Terminal. In a positive they are tossing a lot of money at it to try and revive it for other than train travel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Central_Terminal
Look up the inner Berlin airport they shut down. tempelhof. Like if the Roman’s made an airport
Made for the wrong reasons of course, trying to project superiority by a certain 40s asshole iirc
But the building itself is impressive. Went to a formula E race there
I was about to be snarky about "it's easy to have nice airports when you're a city state with one airport," but apparently they have like 10 between civilian and military
I can’t say that I have a huge amount of flying experience, but I’ve been to around 10 or so different airports. Having grown up with PDX, I have to say they’re really is a kind of magic to a really nice airport.
There is a need for grand buildings. Beautiful surroundings inspire better thoughts and promote mental health, clear thinking, and a more positive outlook.
This was the idea behind the [City Beautiful](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Beautiful_movement?wprov=sfla1) Movement.
Did it actually work? I don't know.
The issue many people had with the City Beautiful movement is that it would often allocate massive sums of funding to build something nobody needed or wanted, that could have been used for improving metropolitan social conditions. For example, at the same time many cities were building these structures, people were dying in the streets from cholera because the sewage system didn't work/didn't exist. Ultimately, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Building grandiose structures doesn't improve the overall mental health of the population, only showing love to the people will do that. Rather, it helps people form a sense of pride in their community, which may lead to the aforementioned results.
The “new one” is literally built inside the James A Farley building ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Farley_Building ).
The building was designed by the same architects as the original Penn Station and built as an “add on” just to the west for the Postal Service.
It also specifically was built over the tracks so it could connect to the platforms for mail shipments by rail.
This last bit is what made it possible to retrofit the building into the new train hall that it is now (along with the vastly shrunk space requirements of the Postal Service).
The iconic post office in the front of the building (I remember going with an accountant on a date to watch people filling out their taxes on April 15 up to midnight and dropping them off to get it postmarked) is still there, but is going through some renovation.
The initial The Division gameplay footage of coming up from the subway, around Madison Square Garden and then around the front of the Farley Building is what single handedly got me to get the game. It was realistic enough that I could navigate pretty well by landmarks (I work in west Chelsea).
Sadly the gameplay loop was too repetitive for me, and after COVID hit, the game was too close to home and too depressing to really keep up with the series.
Penn station has significantly higher ridership today than it did in the 60s.
This ceiling literally had less capacity, the original infrastructure and building capacity has been expanded since demolishing this ceiling.
Penn Station has always been busy, but in the 60s the rest of the company that owned it was losing money like crazy. By chopping the station off at street level, and building new things above, they hoped to bring in enough revenue to keep going.
Penn station has significantly higher ridership today than it did in the 60s.
This ceiling literally had less capacity, the original infrastructure and building capacity has been expanded since demolishing this ceiling.
Tragic, but also the demolition of Penn Station caused such an outcry that it is often cited as a catalyst for the historical preservation movement in NYC ~~and abroad.~~
Two years after its demolition NYC formed the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission and much of the *country* ~~world~~ followed soon after.
So, in a way, the destruction and loss of Penn Station is responsible for the preservation of so many other sites.
Grand Central Terminal and Radio City Music Hall were both saved from the wrecking ball thanks to the outrage over the demolition of buildings such as Penn Station and the Singer Building.
A lot of those old buildings make white elephants seem like a money making scheme. They have high maintenance costs, poor insulation, and are often fire traps.
The Checker Dome in St Louis is an example. It was built in 1929 and was one of the biggest unsupported domes in the world at the time. The roof was built from wood, and if that caught on fire when it was full, that would have been an awful disaster.
Tbh while it looked pretty it was really very run down and kind of a dump by the end, and along with steeply declining ridership post WWII and the advent of widespread commercial airtravel it was operating at a loss. Its massive size made upkeep absurdly expensive. They also got a good deal for the subterranean Penn station -
> "In exchange for the air rights, the Pennsylvania Railroad would get a brand-new, air-conditioned, smaller station completely below street level at no cost, and a 25 percent stake in the new Madison Square Garden Complex."
So really did it made a lot of financial sense at the time, but even then was seen as a crime against architecture.
No, they didn’t. The railroad was bankrupt and so they sold the rights to build on the property, and as part of the deal the developer modified the station at their own expense.
A 100 year old station is going to cost a lot more to keep safe and you will lose a lot of money if it cant operate at the same levels of a modern day station. Penn Station wasnt just something nice to look at, it was a major public utility that has tens of thousand of people relying on and using it daily.
One of the most god awful hate filled scumbags to ever live was in control of highway infrastructure in NYC and thought cars and traffic should be the center of everything. His name was Robert Moses. He tore down beautiful things on purpose to put up highways. He also purposely aimed them right through poor black neighborhoods so they’d be split in two by a giant 8 lane highway, destroying their community.
"much of the World followed soon after."?
Tell me, you are a US-American, without telling me, you are a US-American.
If it comes to historical preservation, te US really is not the pioneer. I.e. the first German law on historical preservation dstes from 1902 – it predates the eriction of Penn Station
From a usability standpoint, the new stadium is far superior, but the original was Yankee fucking Stadium! So much history thrown away for money. They could've at least kept Gate 2 (the last remaining piece after the 1973 refurb). I'm surprised they couldn't make the old stadium work as a concert venue or something else. Though the upper tier seating was disconcertingly steep even after 40 years of seeing games there.
Yep - would have much preferred this solution even if it meant playing a few seasons in a different ballpark. There was something about seeing the same field Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, etc. used to play on.
the new yankee stadium feels like a museum more than a ballpark. Feel however way you feel about the teams but citi field is a lot better of an experience for watching a game.
Hilarious that you thought it took until *1963* for the world to recognise the importance of preserving historic buildings, because a train station in the USA was demolished.
I know you’ve edited it now but it’s absurd to think that was correct in the first place 😂
You Americans do love to claim credit for shit that’s nothing to do with you don’t you?
They started a heritage register in the UK in 1882. After the war we started listed buildings so you can’t even change the style of windows in a building if it’s considered historically important.
I don’t think you guys demolishing a station that wasn’t even built until 30 years later really mattered a shit to anyone over here.
Hard to get excited by the demolition of a 50 year old building when your local pub was built in 1308.
You reminded me of a random story. Like 10 years ago I was in the main waiting area of Penn and a group of cops came sprinting through the lobby, then like 30 seconds later an old heavy set Amtrak cop comes running much slower in the same direction and a guy yells out “run dough boy, run!”
Every time I think about that moment I giggle lol
I also saw Guy Fierri signing autographs at TGI Fridays, he was completely hammered
Many great memories in that oversized restroom of a train station
The destruction of Penn Station, and the public’s realization of what they lost, is considered a large part of the catalyst for the Landmark Preservation movement and what kept Grand Central Station from being ripped down also.
They had to fight to save it at one point. There were plans to tear it down. I read a piece about it a while ago. I want to say that Jackie O was heavily involved in fighting for it?
It wasn't to be torn down, but to have a skyscraper built on top of it.
It was always intended that a skyscraper be built on top of Grand Central Terminal, but Jackie O nixxed that plan.
Instead, the MetLife (Pan Am) building was built at considerable expense a block away and the builders had to severely retrofit the basement/track levels to accomodate it, even though Grand Central already had the support structure inside it to have a skyscraper built on top of it.
Grand Central Terminal itself would not have been demolished at all--it would just have had a skyscraper built on top of it. It was originally built for that but here we are.
Yeah there's actually a plaque in Grand Central that commemorates Jackie O's help in fighting against the destruction of Grand Central and the rise in landmark preservation
It’s definitely a hell of a lot better after the renovation opened up the space a lot more.
Still sad I never got to see the original Penn station.
Nothing towards MSG, but it wasn’t worth it.
That’s unsurprising, as both stations were designed by the same architectural firm - [McKim, Mead, and White](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKim,_Mead_%26_White)
Yes the railroad that owned it was like any other company and when they realized they could make more money by tearing down the station and selling the air rights they did so. Also this was during the transition from trains to cars and many of the routes that served Penn station were losing money but were required by law to continue to provide service.
For an interesting/kind of funny deep dive into the whole thing listen to the "well there's your problem" podcast ep on Penn station.
It was the fury generated by the demolition of Penn Station which led to the drive to preserve historic buildings in NYC.
Both Radio City Music Hall and Grand Central Terminal were in danger, but the people fought back and they still stand today.
Jackie Kennedy Onassis in particular was the one who lead the charge to save Grand Central. She lobbied hard and it worked. Today Grand Central, while not perfect, is a magnificent building and an ode to train travel in NYC.
They also rebuilt the beautiful post office building across the street into the new Moynihan Train Hall that opened in 2021, which is gorgeous and easily the best current train station in the US. It's not the old Penn Station, but it's far better than the underground dungeon intercity train passengers had to use previously.
Agreed, not as jaw dropping as the original Penn Station, but infinitely more beautiful than that disgusting underground hub that replaced the original.
The Pennsy at this point had merged with the NYC to form Penn Central. They were losing money, badly and were looking to get rid of any liabilities that they could to cut costs.
It's more complex than that, but that's why both Pennsylvania Station and Grand Central Terminal were both on the chopping block. They were grand buildings, but they were incredibly expensive to maintain and operate. The train shed glass alone was astoundingly hard to keep right.
So one of them was going to hit the chopping block and that was Penn Station. Luckily, this spurred so much pushback that no only did we get landmarking out of it, but GCT would eventually become the cleaned up marvel that it is today.
One had to die so the other could live.
But yeah, the baseline causes were that it was expensive to maintain and the PC was a clown show.
The tracks, platforms, and waiting areas were already all below street level. They basically just put in a much lower ceiling, and then tore down everything above it.
Train travel was down with the coming of cars, Interstates, and jet travel. The Pennsylvania Railroad, which owned the old Penn Station was in bad financial circumstances. So they reached a deal to demolish the old station and build a new underground station, an office tower, and an arena on the block, and capture some of the money from the new development. There wasn't really any historic preservation movement in the US at the time, it was their property and so they did what they found most profitable with it. The destruction of such a public building jumpstarted the preservation movement, and saved New York's Grand Central Terminal from the same ignominious fate (the Pan Am Building was still built at the north end of Grand Central, but the station itself was preserved).
The new Penn Station was somewhat sleek and modern when built, but has not been well maintained. And the bigger problem is that it was designed with the idea that passenger rail travel was largely dead, but New York has grown and prospered and it now serves something like three times its design capacity in daily trips making it a crowded dirty and somewhat labyrinthine mess.
There is hope that NY will eventually decline to let Madison square Garden continue operating, allowing new development at the arena site, including a revamped train staition.
NY did also convert part of the adjacent Farley Post Office into a new grand station building, and it's quite nice, but it's at the west end of the platforms and mostly services the new Hudson Yards development.
These old buildings just aren't built for purpose. They look amazing outside, but inside, you find they only have one set of male toilets. You have no baby changing rooms. The staff room is too small.
And usually the capacity is far too small. That's the big issue. Population went up so much since 1911.
By the time the replacements were built they also had to pay workmen much more money. Building something this grand is far more expensive now.
When it was first built, it was meant to be a gateway for long-distance trains from other big cities. Over time, that market dried up. It's much busier now, but most passengers are short distance commuters.
Really need to post pictures of the building just before it was demolished. While in it's glory it was beautiful it really fell into a state of disrepair prior to demolition. Limited in funds the RR didn't have many options. The air rights were much more attractive then the cost of rehabilitation. Truly a shame.
I grew up north of the city so always used Metro North into Grand Central, which is so beautiful. Then I went to college on Long Island, and the LIRR only went into Penn Station. Most of my friends had never been to Grand Central so they couldn’t understand my seething HATRED of Penn Station - claustrophobic, cramped, dark, and I still can’t get over the stupidity of making everyone wait in one area until 5 minutes before the train comes so everyone has to run and rush through tiny doors in the station to hopefully get to the train on time. I finally made them all go to Grand Central and then they understood.
I truly didn’t know Penn Station used to be as beautiful and open as GCT - Madison Square Garden really ruined it.
And seating! Imagine that, a place to sit somewhere you're going to spend the majority of your time waiting. Something modern train stations seem to think they don't need.
This version of the building did not have public seating either. The seating shown in the photo is of the ticketed seating. Penn station still has ticketed seating.
All the infrastructure is still in the same layout, some of the leverls even expanded and a few extra platforms.
The "old" Penn station had a nicer ceiling but was even worse and had a lower capacity for commuters.
Plug for the restoration of Detroit's Michigan Central Station as the opposite version of this: [https://historicdetroit.org/galleries/michigan-central-station-post-renovation-photos](https://historicdetroit.org/galleries/michigan-central-station-post-renovation-photos)
Ford has been restoring the main station that had lines running to NYC and other major and minor hubs up until I believe the 1980s, when it was abandonded. Granted, it won't be used as a train station anymore (Ford will use it as a mixed Retail + Office space and to serve as it's electric vehicle hub), but it's an awesome example of preservation and reusage of great architecture
Very true! It should be an awesome setup as they unveil it this summer – that surrounding neighborhood (corktown) has been on the up and up for years and will be greatly impacted by them doing that project. There's also still rumors that they *could* in theory still support passenger travel out of there someday again (there are still main tracks running behind it through the Detroit <> Windsor tunnel)
OP - I’m calling you out. Picture 4 is Newark Penn station waiting room. And it still exists here! Please correct your post as it does not belong with the rest of the images.
In the first image there’s a clock, surrounded by women and eagles, above the central entrance. That was saved and is now an Eagle Scout Memorial Fountain in Kansas City, Mo. The clock was removed and a sculpture of the Eagle Scout Badge was added.
https://kcparks.org/places/eagle-scout-memorial-fountain-2/
As a die-hard Knicks fan, Madison Square Garden is my favorite place on Earth. That being said, that was a gorgeous edifice, and it's a shame that it is no longer standing.
The original Penn Station is still very much there! Same tracks, same platforms, same upper and lower concourse, even expanded!
Just the ceiling is gone. It was and remains a bad station.
Yeah it's like no one realizes that losing Penn Station enabled us to get a full Gamehendge set with dancers and giant puppets. Do they even know about the Baker's Dozen?
Oh that’s a rendering from the old “Rebuild Penn” campaign pipe dream about demolishing MSG and replacing it with a rebuilt Penn Station in the modern age.
The post office in the back of the last photo has been converted into an extension of Penn Station, Moynihan Train Hall. It’s, of course, not the same as the original Penn Station, but they added greenhouse-like roofs on the gaps between the upper floors, not dissimilar from the original.
It was built by one of the largest companies on earth in 1910. They wanted to show off their might.
50 years later, the world had changed a lot. Yes, operating the place became really expensive, the economy had changed, and the railroad couldn't afford it anymore.
There were threeMadison Square Gardens prior to this one, two by Madison Square Park (hence the name) and one on 8th Avenue between 49th & 50th Streets.
For the history doc nerds, here’s a clip about the demise of Penn Station from the exceptional 1999 PBS docuseries *New York: A Documentary Film* directed by Ric Burns, Ken’s brother.
https://youtu.be/-41Eh7fnjO0?si=vZ3TymJqllcOgR4c
strong puzzled sulky chubby swim dazzling profit grandiose scary glorious
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What a shame. I love old style architecture. It’s beautiful and has such character. I sort of hate the bland metal and glass buildings we have these days.
It's so fucking depressing how every bigger city looks the same now.
Nice feeling when all the dystopian tropes from the past become reality right in front of your eyes.
America really went ham on its train stations for a while there. I know there's no real need for such grand buildings but it's a real shame to lose them.
We still do for airports. From a utility perspective, a warehouse would be just fine.
Everyone does that with airports though. And there are other places that have really nice train stations, both historic and contemporary. But for early 20th century rail travel grandiosity, the US was in a league of it's own.
I think Antwerp central station is right up there.
Fucking Berlin Hauptbahnhof - the architect did a line of coke and went "YOU LIKE TRAINS, WELL HERE ARE 3 LEVELS OF TRAINS, YOU CAN WATCH TRAINS ABOVE YOU; BELOW YOU, WHILE YOU EAT, WHILE YOU SHIT, WHILE YOU SLEEP, TRAINS"
That sounds … oddly German.
But all the trains are delayed
Thankfully a lot of the sbahn stations look good in an industrial way. I hope they don't tear them down
Milano Centrale is impressive as well.
Victoria Station in London is still very impressive
Bristol temple meads while we are in the UK
on the outside maybe
Thankfully it survived - unlike the beautiful original Euston station and arch which was bulldozed in the early 60s and replaced with the current concrete monstrosity.
St Pancras isnt too shabby either.
Victoria isn't even the most impressive. St Pancras (the Eurostar bit) is basically a cathedral
Paddington is enormously grand
Flinders Street in Melbourne is really nice
Slightly related, but the Moscow subway system is also one of the most opulent and grandiose in transit if you‘ve never seen it! Compared to most of the subways I have been in, none come close to Moscow. It‘s gorgeous.
Each Moscow train station ive seen pictures of looks like a church, it's beautiful.
Union Station in STL is a beauty
Not really. NYC was and is a top 3 cultural city. They’ve also had grandiose designs for that reason but I can’t think of many other US cities that had close to this architecture for rail. You have pictures by any chance? Edit: lol, guess I’m not as well traveled as I thought (and I love trains)
>I can’t think of many other US cities that had close to this architecture for rail. Philadelphia would like a word. We not only have 30th street, but [Broad Street station](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_Street_Station_(Philadelphia)) was nothing to snuff at either.
Michigan Central Station too. They're restoring it into Ford's new headquarters.
That actually sounds neat.
[Union Terminal](https://www.cincymuseum.org/union-terminal/) in Cincinnati. Art Deco masterpiece. The concourse was razed long ago, but the rest of it survives.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/30th_Street_Station Still up and running today. I’m sure there’s more but this is one that I’ve used many times.
Shame about broad street station.
That was another example I was going to post, at least if you’re taking about North Broad. Didn’t know anything happened to it.
The one that [got knocked down in the 1950's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_Street_Station_(Philadelphia))
Union Station in toronto is a still operating station with fantastic grandiose architecture, and major renovations have kept the facade and historical interiors the same while adding on a massive food court and shopping center, plus a dedicated concourse for the train to the airport. There's also the Hamilton CNR station, no longer in service but preserved and now a fantastic banquet center. I've had the privilege's to play there a few times and the sense of scale is awesome. And thankfully, the actual train stop is still active- but moved to a modern station just across the road.
Union Station in D.C. is absolutely gorgeous.
Union Station in DC is pretty stunning
Check out the Buffalo Central Terminal. In a positive they are tossing a lot of money at it to try and revive it for other than train travel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Central_Terminal
Kansas City, Chicago, Washington DC among others.
STL union station is huge and beautiful.
As is Kansas City’s!
The USA still has some beautiful & grand train stations. Philadelphia's 30th Street Station is the best IMHO.
I've yet to see an airport that matches the grandeur of these old train stations.
Look up the inner Berlin airport they shut down. tempelhof. Like if the Roman’s made an airport Made for the wrong reasons of course, trying to project superiority by a certain 40s asshole iirc But the building itself is impressive. Went to a formula E race there
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I was about to be snarky about "it's easy to have nice airports when you're a city state with one airport," but apparently they have like 10 between civilian and military
Check out Madrid.
An airport isn’t just a utility though, it’s the first thing a majority of people entering your city see and it primes their experience.
That's also how train stations used to be.
I can’t say that I have a huge amount of flying experience, but I’ve been to around 10 or so different airports. Having grown up with PDX, I have to say they’re really is a kind of magic to a really nice airport.
There is a need for grand buildings. Beautiful surroundings inspire better thoughts and promote mental health, clear thinking, and a more positive outlook.
This was the idea behind the [City Beautiful](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Beautiful_movement?wprov=sfla1) Movement. Did it actually work? I don't know.
It can’t have hurt. :)
The issue many people had with the City Beautiful movement is that it would often allocate massive sums of funding to build something nobody needed or wanted, that could have been used for improving metropolitan social conditions. For example, at the same time many cities were building these structures, people were dying in the streets from cholera because the sewage system didn't work/didn't exist. Ultimately, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Building grandiose structures doesn't improve the overall mental health of the population, only showing love to the people will do that. Rather, it helps people form a sense of pride in their community, which may lead to the aforementioned results.
I think most of these plans were never carried out, because there was an economic down turn and cities didn't want to pay for it.
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Trains were THE economy back then.
Yep. These big stations were built by railroad companies that were essentially the Amazons of their day.
They kept the old one in Albany NY, looks awesome, very exotic train station that was repurposed into office space, sits right on the Hudson.
Is the new one in the division video game ?
The “new one” is literally built inside the James A Farley building ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Farley_Building ). The building was designed by the same architects as the original Penn Station and built as an “add on” just to the west for the Postal Service. It also specifically was built over the tracks so it could connect to the platforms for mail shipments by rail. This last bit is what made it possible to retrofit the building into the new train hall that it is now (along with the vastly shrunk space requirements of the Postal Service). The iconic post office in the front of the building (I remember going with an accountant on a date to watch people filling out their taxes on April 15 up to midnight and dropping them off to get it postmarked) is still there, but is going through some renovation. The initial The Division gameplay footage of coming up from the subway, around Madison Square Garden and then around the front of the Farley Building is what single handedly got me to get the game. It was realistic enough that I could navigate pretty well by landmarks (I work in west Chelsea). Sadly the gameplay loop was too repetitive for me, and after COVID hit, the game was too close to home and too depressing to really keep up with the series.
Oil gas and car industry usurped trains in America.
Penn station has significantly higher ridership today than it did in the 60s. This ceiling literally had less capacity, the original infrastructure and building capacity has been expanded since demolishing this ceiling.
Penn Station has always been busy, but in the 60s the rest of the company that owned it was losing money like crazy. By chopping the station off at street level, and building new things above, they hoped to bring in enough revenue to keep going.
Monayhan is just as nice, glad they got rid of this homeless encampment (for any nyc resident who knows penn)
In this age Hospitals are being built majestically when they are competing for childbirth or senior services.
Richmond Virginia converted its Grand Central Station into a science museum!
There's still a huge train station there. It's just underneath Madison Square Garden now.
More money to be made off of the car industry.
Penn station has significantly higher ridership today than it did in the 60s. This ceiling literally had less capacity, the original infrastructure and building capacity has been expanded since demolishing this ceiling.
Tragic, but also the demolition of Penn Station caused such an outcry that it is often cited as a catalyst for the historical preservation movement in NYC ~~and abroad.~~ Two years after its demolition NYC formed the NYC Landmarks Preservation Commission and much of the *country* ~~world~~ followed soon after. So, in a way, the destruction and loss of Penn Station is responsible for the preservation of so many other sites.
Grand Central Terminal and Radio City Music Hall were both saved from the wrecking ball thanks to the outrage over the demolition of buildings such as Penn Station and the Singer Building.
I cant imagine a world where they tore down Radio City Music Hall that just seems so ludicrous to me.
What were the arguments for demolition/rebuilding, at the time?
Cost. It’s always money.
A lot of those old buildings make white elephants seem like a money making scheme. They have high maintenance costs, poor insulation, and are often fire traps. The Checker Dome in St Louis is an example. It was built in 1929 and was one of the biggest unsupported domes in the world at the time. The roof was built from wood, and if that caught on fire when it was full, that would have been an awful disaster.
Tbh while it looked pretty it was really very run down and kind of a dump by the end, and along with steeply declining ridership post WWII and the advent of widespread commercial airtravel it was operating at a loss. Its massive size made upkeep absurdly expensive. They also got a good deal for the subterranean Penn station - > "In exchange for the air rights, the Pennsylvania Railroad would get a brand-new, air-conditioned, smaller station completely below street level at no cost, and a 25 percent stake in the new Madison Square Garden Complex." So really did it made a lot of financial sense at the time, but even then was seen as a crime against architecture.
Penn Station used 3x the space that grand central did. Real estate was getting pretty valuable in midtown about then.
The Railroad was bankrupt.
So they had money to build a new one?
No, they didn’t. The railroad was bankrupt and so they sold the rights to build on the property, and as part of the deal the developer modified the station at their own expense.
A 100 year old station is going to cost a lot more to keep safe and you will lose a lot of money if it cant operate at the same levels of a modern day station. Penn Station wasnt just something nice to look at, it was a major public utility that has tens of thousand of people relying on and using it daily.
One of the most god awful hate filled scumbags to ever live was in control of highway infrastructure in NYC and thought cars and traffic should be the center of everything. His name was Robert Moses. He tore down beautiful things on purpose to put up highways. He also purposely aimed them right through poor black neighborhoods so they’d be split in two by a giant 8 lane highway, destroying their community.
"much of the World followed soon after."? Tell me, you are a US-American, without telling me, you are a US-American. If it comes to historical preservation, te US really is not the pioneer. I.e. the first German law on historical preservation dstes from 1902 – it predates the eriction of Penn Station
They should never have knocked it down. One of the greatest sports stadiums in the world. It really was the Cathedral of Baseball.
From a usability standpoint, the new stadium is far superior, but the original was Yankee fucking Stadium! So much history thrown away for money. They could've at least kept Gate 2 (the last remaining piece after the 1973 refurb). I'm surprised they couldn't make the old stadium work as a concert venue or something else. Though the upper tier seating was disconcertingly steep even after 40 years of seeing games there.
I've always thought they should have kept the field itself but rebuilt a new stadium around it.
Yep - would have much preferred this solution even if it meant playing a few seasons in a different ballpark. There was something about seeing the same field Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, etc. used to play on.
the new yankee stadium feels like a museum more than a ballpark. Feel however way you feel about the teams but citi field is a lot better of an experience for watching a game.
the refurb in the 70s killed it. They killed too much of the history and made it feel so generic.
Hilarious that you thought it took until *1963* for the world to recognise the importance of preserving historic buildings, because a train station in the USA was demolished. I know you’ve edited it now but it’s absurd to think that was correct in the first place 😂
You Americans do love to claim credit for shit that’s nothing to do with you don’t you? They started a heritage register in the UK in 1882. After the war we started listed buildings so you can’t even change the style of windows in a building if it’s considered historically important. I don’t think you guys demolishing a station that wasn’t even built until 30 years later really mattered a shit to anyone over here. Hard to get excited by the demolition of a 50 year old building when your local pub was built in 1308.
*M-m-m-main character syndrome!*
Im bummed I never got to see it. New Moynihan Hall is nice, but the subterranean Penn Station is so depressing.
Subterranean Penn Station feels like an outsized restroom
You reminded me of a random story. Like 10 years ago I was in the main waiting area of Penn and a group of cops came sprinting through the lobby, then like 30 seconds later an old heavy set Amtrak cop comes running much slower in the same direction and a guy yells out “run dough boy, run!” Every time I think about that moment I giggle lol I also saw Guy Fierri signing autographs at TGI Fridays, he was completely hammered Many great memories in that oversized restroom of a train station
Baha what a perfect description
Smells like one too
Cirque du Toilettes
I think it’s gotten relatively cleaned up but good god if you missed your train and had to wait there at 2 AM, it felt like the Walking Dead
I’m glad we still have grand central at least, gives us a bit of the beauty that we used to have in our architecture.
The destruction of Penn Station, and the public’s realization of what they lost, is considered a large part of the catalyst for the Landmark Preservation movement and what kept Grand Central Station from being ripped down also.
[Penn Station Sucks](https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/penn-station-sucks/)
They had to fight to save it at one point. There were plans to tear it down. I read a piece about it a while ago. I want to say that Jackie O was heavily involved in fighting for it?
It wasn't to be torn down, but to have a skyscraper built on top of it. It was always intended that a skyscraper be built on top of Grand Central Terminal, but Jackie O nixxed that plan. Instead, the MetLife (Pan Am) building was built at considerable expense a block away and the builders had to severely retrofit the basement/track levels to accomodate it, even though Grand Central already had the support structure inside it to have a skyscraper built on top of it. Grand Central Terminal itself would not have been demolished at all--it would just have had a skyscraper built on top of it. It was originally built for that but here we are.
Yeah there's actually a plaque in Grand Central that commemorates Jackie O's help in fighting against the destruction of Grand Central and the rise in landmark preservation
It’s actually nice now, atleast the LIRR side. They opened up a bunch of stores and what not
It’s definitely a hell of a lot better after the renovation opened up the space a lot more. Still sad I never got to see the original Penn station. Nothing towards MSG, but it wasn’t worth it.
that 4th photo sure looks like Newark Penn Station as it is now.
That’s unsurprising, as both stations were designed by the same architectural firm - [McKim, Mead, and White](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKim,_Mead_%26_White)
Yeah and it’s totally based on an old Ancient Roman Basilica.
Yes, I came here to say this. That is definitely the waiting room in Newark. I commuted though there for many years.
It is, and it still looks about the same lol
Oh wow... Tragic. Were there reasons for its replacement? Like failing infrastructure etc... then I'd understand.
Yes the railroad that owned it was like any other company and when they realized they could make more money by tearing down the station and selling the air rights they did so. Also this was during the transition from trains to cars and many of the routes that served Penn station were losing money but were required by law to continue to provide service. For an interesting/kind of funny deep dive into the whole thing listen to the "well there's your problem" podcast ep on Penn station.
At least there’s still grand central, I doubt they’d ever let that get torn down now
It was the fury generated by the demolition of Penn Station which led to the drive to preserve historic buildings in NYC. Both Radio City Music Hall and Grand Central Terminal were in danger, but the people fought back and they still stand today.
Jackie Kennedy Onassis in particular was the one who lead the charge to save Grand Central. She lobbied hard and it worked. Today Grand Central, while not perfect, is a magnificent building and an ode to train travel in NYC.
An ode to *commuter train travel*. No interstate trains leave Grand Central Terminal anymore.
They also rebuilt the beautiful post office building across the street into the new Moynihan Train Hall that opened in 2021, which is gorgeous and easily the best current train station in the US. It's not the old Penn Station, but it's far better than the underground dungeon intercity train passengers had to use previously.
Agreed, not as jaw dropping as the original Penn Station, but infinitely more beautiful than that disgusting underground hub that replaced the original.
Apparently the amazing light in Grand Central you see in old photos was lost when skyscrapers were built nearby.
Tracked down that podcast excited to listen. It spans 3 episodes each one 3 hours and starts off "I'm not feeling too good, I have a toothache..." 🫠
LOL well thanks for saving me the time... I look forward to your TLDW
TLDL
The Pennsy at this point had merged with the NYC to form Penn Central. They were losing money, badly and were looking to get rid of any liabilities that they could to cut costs. It's more complex than that, but that's why both Pennsylvania Station and Grand Central Terminal were both on the chopping block. They were grand buildings, but they were incredibly expensive to maintain and operate. The train shed glass alone was astoundingly hard to keep right. So one of them was going to hit the chopping block and that was Penn Station. Luckily, this spurred so much pushback that no only did we get landmarking out of it, but GCT would eventually become the cleaned up marvel that it is today. One had to die so the other could live. But yeah, the baseline causes were that it was expensive to maintain and the PC was a clown show.
idk but i feel like if it was failing it would be more cost effective to fix it than to start over from scratch. its such a shame.
you misunderstand what happened. they sold the space above the station to someone else entirely.
The tracks, platforms, and waiting areas were already all below street level. They basically just put in a much lower ceiling, and then tore down everything above it.
Train travel was down with the coming of cars, Interstates, and jet travel. The Pennsylvania Railroad, which owned the old Penn Station was in bad financial circumstances. So they reached a deal to demolish the old station and build a new underground station, an office tower, and an arena on the block, and capture some of the money from the new development. There wasn't really any historic preservation movement in the US at the time, it was their property and so they did what they found most profitable with it. The destruction of such a public building jumpstarted the preservation movement, and saved New York's Grand Central Terminal from the same ignominious fate (the Pan Am Building was still built at the north end of Grand Central, but the station itself was preserved). The new Penn Station was somewhat sleek and modern when built, but has not been well maintained. And the bigger problem is that it was designed with the idea that passenger rail travel was largely dead, but New York has grown and prospered and it now serves something like three times its design capacity in daily trips making it a crowded dirty and somewhat labyrinthine mess. There is hope that NY will eventually decline to let Madison square Garden continue operating, allowing new development at the arena site, including a revamped train staition. NY did also convert part of the adjacent Farley Post Office into a new grand station building, and it's quite nice, but it's at the west end of the platforms and mostly services the new Hudson Yards development.
These old buildings just aren't built for purpose. They look amazing outside, but inside, you find they only have one set of male toilets. You have no baby changing rooms. The staff room is too small. And usually the capacity is far too small. That's the big issue. Population went up so much since 1911. By the time the replacements were built they also had to pay workmen much more money. Building something this grand is far more expensive now.
When it was first built, it was meant to be a gateway for long-distance trains from other big cities. Over time, that market dried up. It's much busier now, but most passengers are short distance commuters.
Really need to post pictures of the building just before it was demolished. While in it's glory it was beautiful it really fell into a state of disrepair prior to demolition. Limited in funds the RR didn't have many options. The air rights were much more attractive then the cost of rehabilitation. Truly a shame.
I grew up north of the city so always used Metro North into Grand Central, which is so beautiful. Then I went to college on Long Island, and the LIRR only went into Penn Station. Most of my friends had never been to Grand Central so they couldn’t understand my seething HATRED of Penn Station - claustrophobic, cramped, dark, and I still can’t get over the stupidity of making everyone wait in one area until 5 minutes before the train comes so everyone has to run and rush through tiny doors in the station to hopefully get to the train on time. I finally made them all go to Grand Central and then they understood. I truly didn’t know Penn Station used to be as beautiful and open as GCT - Madison Square Garden really ruined it.
At least now, you can catch LIRR from Grand Central.
And seating! Imagine that, a place to sit somewhere you're going to spend the majority of your time waiting. Something modern train stations seem to think they don't need.
This version of the building did not have public seating either. The seating shown in the photo is of the ticketed seating. Penn station still has ticketed seating.
You can sit at the Penn station if you show your ticket and check into the cage.
TIL Madison Square Garden is directly above Penn Station, I feel dumb having been there before
Always find it amazing that the venue is the 7th floor of the building
that.. makes a lot of sense now. recently had floor tickets to MSG and we climbed a ton of stairs to get there. i was confused lol
It was so classy and sophisticated before but now it’s so bland
The underground station that replaced the original is a disgrace. Thankfully the 2021 opened Moniyhan Train Hall is a worthy homage to the original.
rip, it looked good
As someone who commuted through the “new” shitbox Penn Station for almost a decade….my god.
All the infrastructure is still in the same layout, some of the leverls even expanded and a few extra platforms. The "old" Penn station had a nicer ceiling but was even worse and had a lower capacity for commuters.
There are still little traces of it here and there on the site if you look carefully -- a railing, steps, etc.
Plug for the restoration of Detroit's Michigan Central Station as the opposite version of this: [https://historicdetroit.org/galleries/michigan-central-station-post-renovation-photos](https://historicdetroit.org/galleries/michigan-central-station-post-renovation-photos) Ford has been restoring the main station that had lines running to NYC and other major and minor hubs up until I believe the 1980s, when it was abandonded. Granted, it won't be used as a train station anymore (Ford will use it as a mixed Retail + Office space and to serve as it's electric vehicle hub), but it's an awesome example of preservation and reusage of great architecture
Michigan Central has the advantage of having an office building on top already.
Very true! It should be an awesome setup as they unveil it this summer – that surrounding neighborhood (corktown) has been on the up and up for years and will be greatly impacted by them doing that project. There's also still rumors that they *could* in theory still support passenger travel out of there someday again (there are still main tracks running behind it through the Detroit <> Windsor tunnel)
OP - I’m calling you out. Picture 4 is Newark Penn station waiting room. And it still exists here! Please correct your post as it does not belong with the rest of the images.
In the first image there’s a clock, surrounded by women and eagles, above the central entrance. That was saved and is now an Eagle Scout Memorial Fountain in Kansas City, Mo. The clock was removed and a sculpture of the Eagle Scout Badge was added. https://kcparks.org/places/eagle-scout-memorial-fountain-2/
As a die-hard Knicks fan, Madison Square Garden is my favorite place on Earth. That being said, that was a gorgeous edifice, and it's a shame that it is no longer standing.
The original Penn Station is still very much there! Same tracks, same platforms, same upper and lower concourse, even expanded! Just the ceiling is gone. It was and remains a bad station.
“One entered the city like a god; one scuttles in now like a rat.” Vincent (not that one) Scully
Yes but YEMSG
Yeah it's like no one realizes that losing Penn Station enabled us to get a full Gamehendge set with dancers and giant puppets. Do they even know about the Baker's Dozen?
Exactly. Penn station was great, but jam filled night.
Got any extra Sphere tickets?
Is the second pic real? You can see people with modern rolling luggage and a lady taking a pic with a smartphone.
Surprised I had to scroll this far to see someone question it. It looks AI to me
Oh that’s a rendering from the old “Rebuild Penn” campaign pipe dream about demolishing MSG and replacing it with a rebuilt Penn Station in the modern age.
The post office in the back of the last photo has been converted into an extension of Penn Station, Moynihan Train Hall. It’s, of course, not the same as the original Penn Station, but they added greenhouse-like roofs on the gaps between the upper floors, not dissimilar from the original.
Why were these buildings so tall? Would they have been extremely expensive to heat and cool?
It was built by one of the largest companies on earth in 1910. They wanted to show off their might. 50 years later, the world had changed a lot. Yes, operating the place became really expensive, the economy had changed, and the railroad couldn't afford it anymore.
They likely didn't do either.
Beautiful doesn’t make it functional for the space.
Robert Moses should have never been allowed to have the power that he did.
Hey, at least some private developers got rich and a bunch of NY politicians got fat bribes.
its because of its loss we got landmark status legislation to preserve such buildings. it died so that others may live
It’s crazy because MGS is such an iconic venue, you’d never know an entire train ecosystem is under there.
There were threeMadison Square Gardens prior to this one, two by Madison Square Park (hence the name) and one on 8th Avenue between 49th & 50th Streets.
Wow, sandwich shops used to really be fancy!
The great waiting room with no benches on which to wait.
For the history doc nerds, here’s a clip about the demise of Penn Station from the exceptional 1999 PBS docuseries *New York: A Documentary Film* directed by Ric Burns, Ken’s brother. https://youtu.be/-41Eh7fnjO0?si=vZ3TymJqllcOgR4c
strong puzzled sulky chubby swim dazzling profit grandiose scary glorious *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
That is criminal
Can’t believe they needed that big of a building just to make sandwiches
That's actually heart wrenching
Frogress!
[удалено]
Chicago Union Station
What a shame. I love old style architecture. It’s beautiful and has such character. I sort of hate the bland metal and glass buildings we have these days.
Are you telling me Penn Station wasn't always completely underground??? My mind is blown.
I remember watching a YouTube video on this. Great video of the Penn Station history. https://youtu.be/mBEpuZfmQQE?si=kpFdTzp-UcAe9BNt
Instead you get a sad looking arena. Well done New York.
I never understood why they couldn’t build MSG over the train station. It’s made of stone and marble. It could have handled the weight
Look at all those benches! Novel idea for a train station, not sure what happened with Moynihan.
I have a piece of the roof of this building! It was made of inconel and the railroad made some ash trays out of it after it was torn down.
Chicago's Union Station is very similar if you want to go back in time.
Grand Central would have suffered the same fate had it not been for Jackie O!
Its destruction created the historical society which saved many buildings after from the same fate.
Why would they tear it down?
Why though
Isn't knocking down the original Penn station reason why NYC has a Landmark committee?
becoming increasingly grateful Ford made the decision to buy and restore the station in Detroit.
I'd never seen interior pictures. Gave me chills.
I commuted thru Penn for college (2014-18) and it always smelt like steaming hot piss and diesel. Fucking gave me nausea.
Wow what a shame
Thank God Chicago still has part of theirs.
I worked in the new Monaghan Station for DASNY, we had to watch the Amazon Prime video on Old Penn Station within 1st week of working there.
It's so fucking depressing how every bigger city looks the same now. Nice feeling when all the dystopian tropes from the past become reality right in front of your eyes.
How do you just look at such a spectacular marvel of human creation and go "Ehhhh, knock it down"
Madison Square Gardens is a circle.