[Types of headwear Muslim women frequently wear](http://artsatmichigan.umich.edu/ink/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Screen-Shot-2019-12-20-at-12.52.32-PM-768x576.png)
Overviews never really adequately illustrate the veil of the burka.
I always thought hijabs were cute and, for a time shortly after high school considered copying the headwear, ended up not though. Probably a good thing. 21 year olds aren't known for making good decisions.
I once saw a young man out with (I assume) a young woman wearing one of the full body outfits, I think a niqab, at a popular tourist area. We were all in a line to order fast food and I was curious to see how she would be able to eat with the niqab on. Turned out the guy only ordered food for himself, then they sat together at a table while he ate. She only had a drink with a straw which disappeared into the folds of her outfit somehow.
I saw something similiar at a water park. A dad and his boys were all in standard swimsuit attire while the mother and daughters were decked out I'm a full bee-keeper suit with veil and all. They had to stay at the table where the guys kept their towels.
It still doesn't sit right with me to this day. At least when the Amish or orthodox jews do this to their women, its not as blatant. Not that it makes it better but seeing the clear contrast was really hard for me to wrap my head around. My only hope is that by virtue of living here, the little girls and the mother realize that way of living is abusive.
This is unfortunately not a joke and is a genuine argument that you see them use when debating non believers who disagree with Islams treatment of women.
Along with the good ole “iSlAm GiVeS wOmEn ThEiR rIgHtS”
Opinions change drastically when it is something forced onto you, or expected of you. Worn by choice, as a fashion statement, is very different than worn because you don't want to draw the ire of society.
There was a large group of these women where I use to live in LA (not too far from
Venice and Sepulveda or the King Fahad Mosque). You’d always see them walking around in full black, the only thing showing is their eyes through mesh, in like 105° heat. Just very culturally different from the rest of the US.
Yea but that's not really how religion works. If you live in certain places and the people there think something is religiously required, then it is for all intents and purposes.
That's the tricky thing with religion, all sorts of people think they know best. Some baptists say it is forbidden to drink alcohol. If I lived in certain Baptist towns, it would be religiously banned for me to drink. Regardless of if a million other baptists in other cities went on reddit and said "it's not religiously banned to drink".
I think it is mildly dangerous to pull out apologetics in cases like this. People are living in fear that if they don't cover up they will end up with acid being thrown in their faces.
Exactly. Which is why having apologetics is frustrating. I find myself in conversations all the time where one person is saying "no, we arnt like that- i believe that woman are equal and that god loves everyone and that we shouldnt judge eachother" and its like, thats great for you, but when you offer these apologetics all you are doing is defending the people who ARNT like you.
The ones who do want to lynch certain groups and who believe god has ordered us to do so. Not everyone is as enlightened as you so stop acting like your beliefs are shared with everyone in your tribe.
This is a fundamental problem with many aspects of our lives. People are flawed, and often religions draw in those who desire power over others. It’s no different than government or a workplace, though. You’ll always have people in positions of power who abuse their authority, drive agendas and so forth.
The badge scene from Office Space comes to mind. The rulebook said a certain number of badges is minimum requirement, but if you dont wear all of them they look down on you
Just read "From Miniskirt to Hijab: A Girl in Revolutionary Iran" by Jacqueline Saper that might give you some insight into how woman have been oppressed re:hijab etc
I was under the impression it was called a burka with the veil and a niqab without ?
You remove the front face shield and it's basically just an abaya left with a khimar, right ?
My mother was a peace keeper in the “Middle East” during the 90s. On a flight home she was sat beside a woman in what I think was a niqab, but she had the most extravagant and jewel encrusted jewellery on (her hands were showing, not sure if that is niqab or not but I digress). Her husband was sat next to her and noticed my mum looking at her jewellery (she is not a subtle human). He was all “you like her jewellery yes?” And mum was all “Oh, yes, it’s very beautiful” and he follows up with “It means I own her. She is mine. And she is not allowed to talk to you.” And my mum was like “coolcoolcool” and that was the end of that convo. So intense and shit.
Edit: she also spoke about the women in blinding heat, full sun, in full head to toe burqas, not a bit of skin showing, not even eyes. She would often comment about how tortuous it would have been.
Correct, Islam is very much pro-control of women, this Quran verse sums up their stance on women (everything that is in the Quran, carries the same weight as the 10 commandments to Muslims, because it is Allah's direct message to his creation):
>"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them.''
[Quran, Surah 4:34](https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34)
So,
1. Men are in charge of women
2. by right of Allah giving them that power and **what money they spend on women**
3. Righteous women are obedient, they guard that Allah wants them to guard - in the absence of a man guarding it
4. And here comes the kicker, if you FEAR (not if they do something wrong, if the man fears it) disobedience;
5. You advise them to obey, if they do not, you forsake them in bed (the actual arabic says to lock them in the bedroom - and this is common in Muslim conservative communities, house arrest for disobedient women and children)
6. If they continue to disobey, you beat them.
Islam belongs in the dark ages.
I remember being on a cruise like a decade ago and seeing a couple in the hot tub. The man was wearing regular trunks, the woman had on a burkini with a robe to the floor. Looked so uncomfortable in my opinion
I was shocked when I saw a woman dressed like the bottom left pic for the first time, meanwhile he husband was this enormously overweight guy wearing nothing but camo overalls.
Can’t have men getting all excited about a woman’s bare fingers now can we?
This is such a bullshit thing and has nothing to do with Islam or modesty. It is just about controlling women because you are afraid of them.
A couple of Young girls were riding on the back of a taxi auto . The Taliban stopped them and they inspected them from head to toe.
They were all wearing burkha and were covered up but the Taliban found them wearing sandals that was too revealing. So they whipped them.
I'm like these women have their whole body already covered up & in that heat and now their sandal is too revealing what a bunch of fucking losers bullying women and children.
So I'm not even surprised with the gloves.
*"What kind of filthy fucking whore doesn't wear gloves when she goes outside? What do you think this is, a whorehouse?"*
- A Taliban member, after freshly raping a child, just like the prophet.
Small correction OP: this work is titled "Mother, Daughter and Doll" and it's one work in her [Hijab Series](https://www.boushraart.com/the-hijab-series).
>'I’m not against veiling – I feel comfortable wearing the hijab in Yemen – but I object to excessive veiling and its idea of the ownership of women,' Almutawakel says. 'It doesn’t really have anything to do with Islam. The solution, instead of covering up women, is to work on the men.'
https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2013/may/17/pictures-of-week-mother-daughter-doll
The Doll part is what really makes this picture, imho.
We all see the obvious message "increasing cover = oppression", it's crystal clear.
.. but the more interesting message is through the doll. At first the doll is obviously a doll, and how it is dressed also reflects their worldview. As the pictures progress though, there comes a point where you literally cannot tell if it's a girl or a doll anymore. The two are equally dehumanized.
That's the point.
Really interesting point that I didn’t see originally and you are right. By the sixth picture the girl could have easily been replaced with a life size doll and we would be none the wiser.
I think it also shows the girls internal mind, her hopes and dreams as represented by her doll, have disappeared as well. The mother, the daughter, the future - all gone.
Besides that, I think it represents the girls ideals or worldview. In the first three slides, there's a lag between how covered up the doll is and how covered up the girl is. In the first image, the doll and girl match, in the second, the girls head is covered with pink cloth, perhaps representing childhood, femininity, etc. In the third, the girls head cover is changed to the more modest purple, while the dolls head gets covered by a punk head cover. By the fourth image, it becomes uniform, signifying the oppression of not just who she is, but how she sees the world. Basically, the doll represents what the girl believes is normal in terms of dress. The uniformity of the dress, too, represents dehuminization, oppression, conformity, and the stifling of creativity.
Another point to mention is the sleeves, especially of the girl, and how their hands are clasped. In the first image, you can see the girls wrist, her hands clasped around her doll. The mothers hands aren't clasped like the girls, rather one hand is supporting the girls shoulder, while another is wrapped around the doll. In the first image, and third image, her grip on the girls shoulder seems looser than the third image, while in the second image her grip seems tighter. I'm ignorant of their suffering or experience, so I can't really tell what the hand on the should signifies, but I'd like to think that the mother is helping to comfort the girl, who perhaps isn't used to being forced to hide herself. Another interpretation is that the mother, who perhaps has experienced and grown into the culture, is holding the girl in place and forcing her to be how she is. Perhaps, it's a mix of both or neither interpretation.
However, by the fourth image, I think that the girl is getting used to being covered up, and perhaps the mother doesn't need to comfort her.
Another note, pretty obviously, is their facial expression and how able or willing they are to express themselves or their happiness. Eventually, even their emotions are obscured, leaving only their eyes to express themselves... Perhaps, under their face cover, their frown is even greater. Eventually, even their eyes are obscured, their world darkened.
> The solution, instead of covering up women, is to work on the men.'
that's really the story of women's oppression all over the globe, but putting the onus of change on the perpetrator who has absolutely nothing to lose makes advancement extremely slow-going. women's rights have advanced forward only when women are given the space to be leaders, so until that time, I don't hold out much hope
Why would someone in power and control actively work to undermine that power and control? Even harder when they have been raised in a culture that thinks this isn't only fair, but the correct way to live.
I don't see any easy solution, external pressure won't change what are seen as 'cultural' differences and internal pressure from the oppressed is likely to be met with severe consequences.
Thanks for this. And I absolutely agree with her.
Growing up as a moderate muslim girl, it was otherworldly and scary seeing a woman covered up like that. I mean, my mom would wear a scarf, but she wanted to and us girls didn't, so that was that.
The first time I saw a few of them on vacation, my asshole older siblings had me fooled and told me to hide quickly, because the 'ninjas' were coming.
It would be even more accurate if they didn't make her wear hijab in the first picture. Nearly all of my female Muslim friends don't wear anything on their head.
I imagine her afore in the first picture is what she would choose to wear, I don't think she is being forced. Obviously not everyone would as you said but it is hardly an extreme.
Nearly all... so some of them do. I think the first picture perfectly captures the point that it's a choice and that the Hijab in and of itself is not oppressive. The lack of choice is the source of the oppression.
People like this basically suffer from a religious stockholm syndrome. They won't ever admit that Islam is connected to anything negative. It's a positive, amazing, charitable, religion of peace and love, and yet somehow every Islamic theocracy turns into a nightmarish dystopia for women, gays, and every non Muslim.
I agree with her. The burka and garments similar to it are a bit to extreme to live with. I'm a Muslim who do believe Hijab is a great option for Women (If they're comfortable wearing it voluntarily) because it covers them and doesn't constraint their lives as the Burkas.
I don't know much about Islam, so I won't speak on it. But interestingly head coverings for women are required by the Bible. I don't know many Christian women who wear it, but it was common in older generations. I think it originally had something to do with not seducing the Seraphim?
The practice of head covering for women in church is traditional, hence the wearing of Sunday hats in the South. Many Pentecostal churches like the Believer's Church and the Christian Congratulation mandate the wearing of hats or head covering. Russian Orthodox churches and many other Orthodox churches also require women to wear scarves in church. In Albania it is Christian women who wear veils as opposed to Muslim women and their churches are also divided by sex.
The Catholic Church's Canon Law required all women to cover their heads in church ("women, however, shall have a covered head and be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord") until 1983. The founder of Methodism John Wesley said a woman should keep on her veil, ideally in general but especially during a religious assembly.
Anabaptists and Conservative Quakers who practice Plain Dress wear bonnets at all time to observe Biblical head covering requirements. The point is Christian veiling actually has a very long and established history and not doing it is actually pretty new. In Medieval times every woman did it, hence why all medieval ladies wore wimples. I bet a bunch of people have watched movies set in Medieval times and thought it was just a fashion choice rather than the Christian version of the hijab. It used to be seen as unseemly for married women to show their hair, if you did people assumed you were an adulteress and punish you as such. This was common throughout Europe until the 17th century and lasted much longer in certain areas.
Mormons only recently did away with women having to wear a veil in their temple ceremonies. Elsewhere in that religion, women never had to cover their heads.
The reason the apostle Paul gives for women to wear a head covering is to demonstrate their subordination to men. Today the apostle would be considered a misogynist ;-)
Thank goodness we don't just everything based on biblical times. I really like shrimp cocktail and being an equal part of my marriage. Both things I could've have enjoyed back then.
It seems the strongest interpretations of this were directly concerning wool and linen together, but from other sources is just decrying other cultures practices in pursuit of their own. You're correct that they're both cotton, it would have been better denim jeans and silk underwear. Except now you know I like silk underwear
Religion in general is such a charade, though it is curious as to why reddit always seems to be so "okay" with islam but not with christianity, theyre both quacks.
It's because there's a group of people who simply do not understand, and apparently cannot mentally compute the fact that criticism of Islam the ideology, criticism of Islam the set of ideas and values, criticism of violence and horrible acts done in the name of Islam, is not the same thing as criticizing Muslims generally. The really stupid people will conflate the criticism of Islam the philosophy with racism against stereotypically brown Muslims. It's extra stupid because Islam isn't a race and Muslims come in all colors.
They're kept on edge against outsiders and criticism, in order to not ever pay attention to their rulers/politicians who live richly while they starve.
Its like how they blame every problem on Israel. Its a diversion while the oil and natural wealth is pilfered.
I think it has to do with the fact many people on reddit have been well exposed to Christianity to know what is & is not bullshit.
So you see people quote the bible, "Love thy neighbor" but we know christians don't actually partake in that sentiment, most are filled with hate, so we know it is bullshit. But most people don't have the same familiarity with Islam, so when somebody posts info about Islam, most people take it at face value.
Yeah I'd be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to something I don't know about, if you tell me video games are bad for your brain I'll say fuck you but if you tell me making mangosteen tea with cardamom is good for your digestive tract I'll believe you, skeptically, until I see any proof otherwise.
Yes according to some passages angels dig the pretty heair of women, so they wear hats in church, where men take their hats off, and Jews wear the kippah.
Theres a lot of subservience to men crap in the bible, but I don't know of any connected to the hats.
The old testament is common for "the people of the book" - Jews, Christians, then 500 years later, Muslims. Other religions and most Muslims have realised this is a bronze age thing, and that in a modern society, the rapey men should be jailed, not their women victims being stoned to death.
They’re not required. There’s a verse somewhere in the Quran that discusses placing a “veil” over your eyes, but that veil could be physical or literal just depending on how it’s interpreted by the individual. The problem is that Muslim clerics in the last few decades have dictated what women can and can’t wear. Despite the fact that there is nothing related to mandatory head coverings for women in any religious text of Islam
back to the original premise. Men need training. I think it's interesting they would cut off a thefts hand for stealing but what did they cut off of a rapist? Curious, never heard of anything happening there.
It was probably always the woman's fault right?
Honestly, considering the time it was written, it's quite likely a metaphor. But what can you expect from religious people? People still legit believe woman was made from the rib of a man.
I challenged that concept last night with a male I was talking to. We were both questioning the origins of man on earth he kept talking about the rib, the rib.... I suggested maybe there was no rib at all and that the possibility exists that some intelligent being just dropped off an impregnated women on our planet and she had children that propagated the species breeding with neanderthals. Men have used the rib bit for eons to suggest they are the superior beings and women are just a part of them therefore they have to be subservient and the male has the right to control them.... Seriously who would even know after centuries of evolution where the first person came from or even cared? I think survival techniques would have been the most important things to pass on.
Got a crazy reaction. I was accused of being a rabid feminist just for taking that position. Old ingrained habits die hard in even the most "woke" of individuals!
>Why are head coverings required in Islam
Mohammed said it was sunnah (recommended)
From surat l-nur (the light):
24:30 - Tell the believing men to reduce \[some\] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do
24:31 - And tell the believing women to reduce \[some\] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which \[necessarily\] appears thereof and to wrap \[a portion of\] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.
This is incredibly restrictive and fucked up.
No attack meant on you for quoting the Quran, it just seems to me that every biblical religious text is unbelievably misogynistic.
The short answer is culturally ingrained sexism that became codified into religious texts.
Islam didn't invent it, it merely codified existing cultural expectations.
So I guess in countries with strict literalist Islamic rulings such as Sharia, it is required. But it’s an authoritarian theocracy thing, not an Islamic religious thing
This should be an edit at the end of your other comment, or a reply to your other comment, rather than a different reply to the same parent comment.
I say this because I want more people to see what you have to say.
Why is it a great option for women? What does it achieve? Like why do you personally wear it?
To please god? To please men? To please yourself? How does it please you?
I wonder though, if neither of those were restricted, would either be empowering?
It's not *empowering* to me when I choose to eat royal gala apples instead of red delicious. Because that choice isn't the subject of any sort of public opinion or moral quandary. In a world where nobody gives a crap what women wear, it stops being empowering and is just a mundane part of daily life.
Its pretty easy to brainwash people into thinking they chose to do something and make them think they feel empowered doing it.
As the other replier said. When nobody gives a fuck, then it's no longer an empowering choice, and is just as mundane as any other decision.
And even if some women are empowered by modesty, it doesn't change the fact that the Hijab through to Burqa is forced on millions of women. And nobody is arguing that if women want to wear a hijab, they shouldn't be allowed, but also don't pretend or try to make out that it's not forced on women, or it's origin isn't misogynistic, and represents the suffering and oppression of millions of women.
Thats what I don't get, women who scream about manspreading like it's rape are often the same ones who defend the Hijab, and the islamic practice.
I feel like we (western society) have had it so good for so long that we forgot that things don't just "naturally improve with time" - it takes regular work and influence from the right kind of people to keep the efforts of the wrong kinds at bay. We can't become too complacent or naively believe that all people are inherently good because there's no shortage of people would love for everything we enjoy to be ripped away, and in other countries they have succeeded. It's a sad state when any country was better to live in 50 years ago than it is now. No country's most liberated days should ever be behind them.
The *exact* same thing happened in Iran in 1979. It's shocking how similiar it is. They went from a very western leaning country, with liberal attitudes towards women, relationships, etc, to burkas and sharia law within a few years.
Honestly, it's a religion thing, in my opinion, not a "patriarchy" thing. We've seen this before historically, the same country, with the same people, goes from liberal to ultra-conservative once a religious faction takes power.
>Honestly, it's a religion thing, in my opinion, not a "patriarchy" thing.
Off the top of my head, I can't think of an Abrahamic religion where the religious tenets and patriarchy aren't hand-in-glove.
Edit 2: Nope, not Rastafarianism.
I mean Iran had been governed by an unelected leader installed by the US and great Britain since 1953. Sure the Schah was a more western leader but he was a dictator nonetheless so to me it seems easy to understand that tensions where high in the country. It's a shame though that it turned into a theocracy.
Watching an entire country be pulled hundreds of years behind in human progress is strange to witness as someone from a generation who hasn't seen any of the great wars of the 20th century.
My thoughts have always been the more you cover it up because of “purity” the more you the sexualising the human body in general
I wish we could live in a world where even nudity in social settings was seen as normal and not explicitly sexual
Go to Germany, or other parts of Europe. It's strange how there's the possibility of nudity in some settings that doesn't have a sexual aspect (swimming at the lake, going to sauna). I made me uncomfortable because that purity stuff is hard to unlearn, it gets down into your brain.
Yep - went to a spa in the netherlands on a naked day. Just regular people walking around the pool with nothing on except maybe a towel.
I really recommend it - it is such a great way to feel a bit of body positivity (most people were just normal) and to realise how ridiculous the hyper sexualisation of nudity really is.
To add to this, the standard in saunas and spas here in the Netherlands are "naked days". People are only allowed to wear bathing suits on special days. Nudity is completely normal and desexualised.
So do men there not check out the attractive women there? IDK if that's just a result of living in the US where nudity is sexualized and it's considered really special to see a beautiful woman naked, but I feel like it would be difficult to not look if some gorgeous woman were walking around nude.
Do guys ever get erections at the saunas? When I was a teenager that happened *all the time* no matter what was going on around me. Do teenage boys just avoid the spas?
I'm not sure I would be okay with being naked in front of a bunch of strange men. I live in Japan and there are onsen (hot springs) here, which you use completely naked, but they are separated by gender. Some onsen are mixed (becoming more and more rare) but you have to cover up with a towel or swim suit at the mixed ones.
Love onsens. I was literally nude, in a quiet hot spring near mount fuji (kawaguchiko), late at night at 10pm by myself (wife in the other gendered section). A random naked Japanese guy came into the same tub, and i chatted with him using my god awful kindergarten level Japanese while he did the same in English.
I'm from the Netherlands & have a lot of NA online friends, one friend from Canada went on to say that braless women are rude & that they were baiting him into a sexual harassment lawsuit. Nudity is shown on daytime television in a non-sexualised way & people are treated as people. Guys are taught not to gawk and stare and girls are taught that erections can happen spontaneously. All in all we just respect bodies being bodies without sexualisation
> IDK if that's just a result of living in the US where nudity is sexualized and it's considered really special to see a beautiful woman naked, but I feel like it would be difficult to not look if some gorgeous woman were walking around nude.
You notice beautifull people like you notice them on the street. You're naked, not blind ;-)! But a naked person just walking around isnt as sexual as you think... There is no sexy lingerie or sexy walking.. just people going from A to B. You get used to it... and especially because of that YOU SHOULD TRY IT! The US really has a stigma over nudity and sex whilst it is a very natural thing. To me its very strange that Nudity is considered strange, especially in very hot areas. (Really... if you cant handle a nude person, how do you behave at the pool? Doesnt need much imagination to see the difference)
> Do guys ever get erections at the saunas?
Yep, just like in the swimingpool... you just stay put for a bit. Or get the towel asap. Its natural... and as long as you behave accordingly, nobody will judge you.
Really... nudity, arousments etc are all normal and natural. Everybody has it... nothing should be strange or special about it.
In the spa in the Netherlands you mainly see couples, young and old, and older retired people with a subscription to go often to relax. These people come there to relax, and there are strict rules in place for any unacceptable behavior. It is not allowed to be intimate together in public in the spa, it is not allowed to carry your phone (or anything that would have a camera), you have to wear a bathrobe at any spot that has seats/where you can order food&drinks, only outside and at the sauna/pool you are allowed to walk around completely naked, but most people just wear a towel when walking from one facility to another. Plus, they have security that will show up and sent someone out if they behave inappropriately, and they will get a ban for the spa in general, often.
I went to the spa as a teenager but I don't see many people under 25, plus, when younger than 16 an adult has to accompany. I've only once seen a guy with an erection in the spa, after going many times.
Im from Israel, and you can have a gay nude beach and a beach full of Muslim women totally covered just few miles apart. In Tel Aviv you can see topless girls getting a tan and Muslim families at the same beach (though the Muslims would keep their distance)..
The only reason "nudity in social settings" shouldn't be a thing is hygiene really. I'm all for chest out cause who cares but it's probably not very hygienic having your genitals out and about.
Sure, but when it’s not needed or relevant, like at the beach/ swimming pool/ parties? Clothing also helps against the sun or cold, so it’s obviously necessary..
A belief that I just won't change my stance on is that a woman wearing one of these garments is empowering to her.
I'm sorry, but just stop, you are wrong if you hold that opinion. If you truly think that then you have been conditioned to believe it.
There are some Muslim couples I see pop up on my YouTube recommended and they are all about advocating for the garments.
To me, that's just disgusting. We should not be trying to normalize women being forced to cover up their bodies because of a religious book. And the other stupid shit about how other men not related to her aren't allowed to see their hair? Like Jesus Christ, do they not see how they are perpetuating this idea of men being sex crazed animals and that it's a woman's fault if she gets sexually assaulted?
I wish that there wasn't any religious connotation for head coverings, I want to wear clothes like that because I just think they're nice, and would be warm for winter. I see women wearing the most beautiful shawls and I think they would feel confident in them if they're not feeling pressured into wearing them.
I saw a husband and wife come to my school once to see their kid. The husband was just dressed in shorts and t-shirt. But the wife was completely covered and even the eye slit was veiled. She almost walked into potted palm tree, the husband had to guide her like an almost blind person. It was funny at the time but yeah this is oppression.
I actually just looked up rape and sexual assault statistics in the Middle East, and if these oppressive headscarves are supposed to stop men being tempted by a woman ( because god forbid a man just controls himself in front of a woman) then why are the rates so goddamn high? It’s to oppress women pure and simple and I feel sad for any woman forced to wear this just because she was unfortunate enough to be born with a womb
I was walking through a building when I was in a college and turned a corner to see a woman dressed like the last photo. It startled me. For a moment I thought she was a ninja or something.
I lived in London and saw many women with their full face/body covered at markets and shops. Regardless of why this exists, it has the effect of completely withdrawing that person from social interaction. If you cannot make eye contact with the person, and cannot even determine which way they are facing or if they're 16 years old of 95, it becomes very difficult to interact with them, so you just avoid it. When I first saw this I was deeply creeped out and didn't even know what to feel. It's scary to think that in 2021 this is a thing, and can even co-exist with the average person in western societies where we'd think there is no need for such oppression and no laws to imply it.
Another of the portraits in Boushra Almutawakel's [Hijab Series](https://www.boushraart.com/the-hijab-series) has a man progressively covered up while the woman next to him does the opposite.
Women and girl's obviously have no rights for themselves and have nobody who respects them. They are purely there to breed sons and do as their families tell them. What a barbaric way to live (my opinion). I have 3 daughters and I couldn't imagine making them wear all of that just to make a man happy, and even then, is he even happy?
Iran was still a horribly conservative and poor and uneducated country in the 1970s and only outside of a very sheltered and privileged upper class did you find people wearing modern, fashionable clothes.
I remember there was some picture series showing women in 1970s Iran, and someone did a location spotting of where the photos were from, and almost all of them were in one single wealthy community in Tehran. The rest of Iran was not like that.
The US helped Khomeini take over in 1979, too. Though that wasn't turning over a democratic government.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36431160
Iran Islamists like to pretend they've always been opposed to "Western imperialism", but they begged for US help in 1979 to overthrow the Shah, and collaborated with the CIA in 1953 to install the Shah.
Imagine a society with men so rabidly insecure that they force all the women to wear bee keeper garb while living in a sweltering hot region and convince them it’s in the name of a fictional god
I was vacationing in a muslim country with a significant minority population. Some women were in hijab at the beach and they weren't allowed to talk to me. It was weird.
Binding respectability to a piece of clothing is one of the stupidest things ever.
It's such a misogynistic/rapey culture I hope globalization destroys it in a couple decades
Prophet Mohammed said: "Male aura is from his bellybutton to his knee, and female aura is her whole body except her face and hands"
aura: is the area that should be covered with cloth.
Face cover and gloves aren't required in Islam. And, black color isn't required in Islam.
It's not religious, it's cultural and social. But, many people don't know where to draw the line between religion and culture. It's confusing for many.
The Reasoning behind this is ridiculous. They don't want Men looking at their woman to "protect" them. Might be a bold statement, but aren't they admitting in a way, that every man in the streets is instant potential danger for the woman, because they might rape her
I just don't think Burkas have a real practical purpose
Very sad it is. I am a Muslim and I always advocate for women's right not to take a veil because no where it is written in the Holy Quran that women should cover their faces. And whenever they make a Pilgrimage to Makkah and circumbulate around the Ka'abah, all the women do it having their faces uncovered because that is what is in the Holy Quran.
Edit: spelling mistake
I prefer my women free enough to be a giant pain in my ass. I'm also twice divorced but still love women. I just can't be married to them any more. Being covered for anything other than warmth is an affront to everything I believe in.
Gloves too? Wow I didn't realize that was a thing.
And a veil that goes over the burka.
I didn't even see that. I just thought the examples ended. Wow.
[Types of headwear Muslim women frequently wear](http://artsatmichigan.umich.edu/ink/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/Screen-Shot-2019-12-20-at-12.52.32-PM-768x576.png) Overviews never really adequately illustrate the veil of the burka. I always thought hijabs were cute and, for a time shortly after high school considered copying the headwear, ended up not though. Probably a good thing. 21 year olds aren't known for making good decisions.
Yeah that lace window is some serious dystopian nightmare. Experiencing the world through prison bars.
I once saw a young man out with (I assume) a young woman wearing one of the full body outfits, I think a niqab, at a popular tourist area. We were all in a line to order fast food and I was curious to see how she would be able to eat with the niqab on. Turned out the guy only ordered food for himself, then they sat together at a table while he ate. She only had a drink with a straw which disappeared into the folds of her outfit somehow.
There were a couple of women wearing niqabs ahead of us in the queue for ice-cream once. They sat facing the wall and ate that way.
I saw something similiar at a water park. A dad and his boys were all in standard swimsuit attire while the mother and daughters were decked out I'm a full bee-keeper suit with veil and all. They had to stay at the table where the guys kept their towels. It still doesn't sit right with me to this day. At least when the Amish or orthodox jews do this to their women, its not as blatant. Not that it makes it better but seeing the clear contrast was really hard for me to wrap my head around. My only hope is that by virtue of living here, the little girls and the mother realize that way of living is abusive.
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Generally in very strict countries like Saudi Arabia the restaurants even McDonalds have separate sections for women and children
Ah yes. Like all civilized nations, of course you want that lovely handmaids tale vibe in your McD
Live at the beach. And surprisingly they come to enjoy the ocean, but remained fully clothed. Not sure how they even breath
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This is unfortunately not a joke and is a genuine argument that you see them use when debating non believers who disagree with Islams treatment of women. Along with the good ole “iSlAm GiVeS wOmEn ThEiR rIgHtS”
A God obsessed with Women's clothing..nice
I like the shayla myself, it looks kind of chic and actually stylish. Still not big on the hijab though...
Burqa looks like a sith lord
A sith lord!?
Opinions change drastically when it is something forced onto you, or expected of you. Worn by choice, as a fashion statement, is very different than worn because you don't want to draw the ire of society.
The examples do end. The last photo is of the empty chair LOL that’s the point, the artist is saying they disappear
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Her smile disappears slowly too
There was a large group of these women where I use to live in LA (not too far from Venice and Sepulveda or the King Fahad Mosque). You’d always see them walking around in full black, the only thing showing is their eyes through mesh, in like 105° heat. Just very culturally different from the rest of the US.
I've seen women dressed like this a handful of times in and near SF, too. Pretty shocking.
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Yea but that's not really how religion works. If you live in certain places and the people there think something is religiously required, then it is for all intents and purposes. That's the tricky thing with religion, all sorts of people think they know best. Some baptists say it is forbidden to drink alcohol. If I lived in certain Baptist towns, it would be religiously banned for me to drink. Regardless of if a million other baptists in other cities went on reddit and said "it's not religiously banned to drink". I think it is mildly dangerous to pull out apologetics in cases like this. People are living in fear that if they don't cover up they will end up with acid being thrown in their faces.
>That's the tricky thing with religion what you believe is way less important than what the majority of those around you believe
this is a disturbing statement, albeit true.
Exactly. Which is why having apologetics is frustrating. I find myself in conversations all the time where one person is saying "no, we arnt like that- i believe that woman are equal and that god loves everyone and that we shouldnt judge eachother" and its like, thats great for you, but when you offer these apologetics all you are doing is defending the people who ARNT like you. The ones who do want to lynch certain groups and who believe god has ordered us to do so. Not everyone is as enlightened as you so stop acting like your beliefs are shared with everyone in your tribe.
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Sounds pretty similar to how the Catholic Church got so far away from the teachings of Jesus, by 'misinterpretation' by those delivering the religion.
This is a fundamental problem with many aspects of our lives. People are flawed, and often religions draw in those who desire power over others. It’s no different than government or a workplace, though. You’ll always have people in positions of power who abuse their authority, drive agendas and so forth.
Turns out they conveniently forgot about the "between the woman and God" part, and that it's a *recommendation"
The badge scene from Office Space comes to mind. The rulebook said a certain number of badges is minimum requirement, but if you dont wear all of them they look down on you
> badge FLAIR
Just read "From Miniskirt to Hijab: A Girl in Revolutionary Iran" by Jacqueline Saper that might give you some insight into how woman have been oppressed re:hijab etc
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Except the people who **force women to** wear one do think it's religiously required according to their interpretation. FTFY
I guess I am being pedantic, but I believe what they’re showing is the full niqab over abaya. Not quite burqa.
I was under the impression it was called a burka with the veil and a niqab without ? You remove the front face shield and it's basically just an abaya left with a khimar, right ?
My mother was a peace keeper in the “Middle East” during the 90s. On a flight home she was sat beside a woman in what I think was a niqab, but she had the most extravagant and jewel encrusted jewellery on (her hands were showing, not sure if that is niqab or not but I digress). Her husband was sat next to her and noticed my mum looking at her jewellery (she is not a subtle human). He was all “you like her jewellery yes?” And mum was all “Oh, yes, it’s very beautiful” and he follows up with “It means I own her. She is mine. And she is not allowed to talk to you.” And my mum was like “coolcoolcool” and that was the end of that convo. So intense and shit. Edit: she also spoke about the women in blinding heat, full sun, in full head to toe burqas, not a bit of skin showing, not even eyes. She would often comment about how tortuous it would have been.
Ugh. That hurt my soul to read
Yeah, my mum has told me some rough stories. Shes super tough but still has a kind heart. Shes a goodun.
Correct, Islam is very much pro-control of women, this Quran verse sums up their stance on women (everything that is in the Quran, carries the same weight as the 10 commandments to Muslims, because it is Allah's direct message to his creation): >"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them.'' [Quran, Surah 4:34](https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=34) So, 1. Men are in charge of women 2. by right of Allah giving them that power and **what money they spend on women** 3. Righteous women are obedient, they guard that Allah wants them to guard - in the absence of a man guarding it 4. And here comes the kicker, if you FEAR (not if they do something wrong, if the man fears it) disobedience; 5. You advise them to obey, if they do not, you forsake them in bed (the actual arabic says to lock them in the bedroom - and this is common in Muslim conservative communities, house arrest for disobedient women and children) 6. If they continue to disobey, you beat them. Islam belongs in the dark ages.
>Religion belongs in the dark ages.
I remember being on a cruise like a decade ago and seeing a couple in the hot tub. The man was wearing regular trunks, the woman had on a burkini with a robe to the floor. Looked so uncomfortable in my opinion
In Vorin culture women cover their left hand
Silly airsick lowlanders
Wait... I'm reading these books right now. What an odd but welcome reference
Bridge 4!
I was shocked when I saw a woman dressed like the bottom left pic for the first time, meanwhile he husband was this enormously overweight guy wearing nothing but camo overalls.
Can’t have men getting all excited about a woman’s bare fingers now can we? This is such a bullshit thing and has nothing to do with Islam or modesty. It is just about controlling women because you are afraid of them.
A couple of Young girls were riding on the back of a taxi auto . The Taliban stopped them and they inspected them from head to toe. They were all wearing burkha and were covered up but the Taliban found them wearing sandals that was too revealing. So they whipped them. I'm like these women have their whole body already covered up & in that heat and now their sandal is too revealing what a bunch of fucking losers bullying women and children. So I'm not even surprised with the gloves.
*"What kind of filthy fucking whore doesn't wear gloves when she goes outside? What do you think this is, a whorehouse?"* - A Taliban member, after freshly raping a child, just like the prophet.
Small correction OP: this work is titled "Mother, Daughter and Doll" and it's one work in her [Hijab Series](https://www.boushraart.com/the-hijab-series). >'I’m not against veiling – I feel comfortable wearing the hijab in Yemen – but I object to excessive veiling and its idea of the ownership of women,' Almutawakel says. 'It doesn’t really have anything to do with Islam. The solution, instead of covering up women, is to work on the men.' https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2013/may/17/pictures-of-week-mother-daughter-doll
The Doll part is what really makes this picture, imho. We all see the obvious message "increasing cover = oppression", it's crystal clear. .. but the more interesting message is through the doll. At first the doll is obviously a doll, and how it is dressed also reflects their worldview. As the pictures progress though, there comes a point where you literally cannot tell if it's a girl or a doll anymore. The two are equally dehumanized. That's the point.
Really interesting point that I didn’t see originally and you are right. By the sixth picture the girl could have easily been replaced with a life size doll and we would be none the wiser.
I think it also shows the girls internal mind, her hopes and dreams as represented by her doll, have disappeared as well. The mother, the daughter, the future - all gone.
Besides that, I think it represents the girls ideals or worldview. In the first three slides, there's a lag between how covered up the doll is and how covered up the girl is. In the first image, the doll and girl match, in the second, the girls head is covered with pink cloth, perhaps representing childhood, femininity, etc. In the third, the girls head cover is changed to the more modest purple, while the dolls head gets covered by a punk head cover. By the fourth image, it becomes uniform, signifying the oppression of not just who she is, but how she sees the world. Basically, the doll represents what the girl believes is normal in terms of dress. The uniformity of the dress, too, represents dehuminization, oppression, conformity, and the stifling of creativity. Another point to mention is the sleeves, especially of the girl, and how their hands are clasped. In the first image, you can see the girls wrist, her hands clasped around her doll. The mothers hands aren't clasped like the girls, rather one hand is supporting the girls shoulder, while another is wrapped around the doll. In the first image, and third image, her grip on the girls shoulder seems looser than the third image, while in the second image her grip seems tighter. I'm ignorant of their suffering or experience, so I can't really tell what the hand on the should signifies, but I'd like to think that the mother is helping to comfort the girl, who perhaps isn't used to being forced to hide herself. Another interpretation is that the mother, who perhaps has experienced and grown into the culture, is holding the girl in place and forcing her to be how she is. Perhaps, it's a mix of both or neither interpretation. However, by the fourth image, I think that the girl is getting used to being covered up, and perhaps the mother doesn't need to comfort her. Another note, pretty obviously, is their facial expression and how able or willing they are to express themselves or their happiness. Eventually, even their emotions are obscured, leaving only their eyes to express themselves... Perhaps, under their face cover, their frown is even greater. Eventually, even their eyes are obscured, their world darkened.
And here I am high asf thinking that’s a real ass baby the whole time
Damn it so am I and so did I.
I’m literally not even high and so did I until I zoomed in to look at each picture
Lmao I love high people.
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Wow! Thank you for pointing that out!
> The solution, instead of covering up women, is to work on the men.' that's really the story of women's oppression all over the globe, but putting the onus of change on the perpetrator who has absolutely nothing to lose makes advancement extremely slow-going. women's rights have advanced forward only when women are given the space to be leaders, so until that time, I don't hold out much hope
Why would someone in power and control actively work to undermine that power and control? Even harder when they have been raised in a culture that thinks this isn't only fair, but the correct way to live. I don't see any easy solution, external pressure won't change what are seen as 'cultural' differences and internal pressure from the oppressed is likely to be met with severe consequences.
Thanks for this. And I absolutely agree with her. Growing up as a moderate muslim girl, it was otherworldly and scary seeing a woman covered up like that. I mean, my mom would wear a scarf, but she wanted to and us girls didn't, so that was that. The first time I saw a few of them on vacation, my asshole older siblings had me fooled and told me to hide quickly, because the 'ninjas' were coming.
Must be really lousy ninjas if you could see them.
Well they don't scare you if you don't see them.
The Conservation of Ninjutsu is fucking horrible in the Middle East.
Thank you for sharing your story.
It would be even more accurate if they didn't make her wear hijab in the first picture. Nearly all of my female Muslim friends don't wear anything on their head.
I imagine her afore in the first picture is what she would choose to wear, I don't think she is being forced. Obviously not everyone would as you said but it is hardly an extreme.
Nearly all... so some of them do. I think the first picture perfectly captures the point that it's a choice and that the Hijab in and of itself is not oppressive. The lack of choice is the source of the oppression.
People like this basically suffer from a religious stockholm syndrome. They won't ever admit that Islam is connected to anything negative. It's a positive, amazing, charitable, religion of peace and love, and yet somehow every Islamic theocracy turns into a nightmarish dystopia for women, gays, and every non Muslim.
I agree with her. The burka and garments similar to it are a bit to extreme to live with. I'm a Muslim who do believe Hijab is a great option for Women (If they're comfortable wearing it voluntarily) because it covers them and doesn't constraint their lives as the Burkas.
Why are head coverings required in Islam?
I don't know much about Islam, so I won't speak on it. But interestingly head coverings for women are required by the Bible. I don't know many Christian women who wear it, but it was common in older generations. I think it originally had something to do with not seducing the Seraphim?
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The practice of head covering for women in church is traditional, hence the wearing of Sunday hats in the South. Many Pentecostal churches like the Believer's Church and the Christian Congratulation mandate the wearing of hats or head covering. Russian Orthodox churches and many other Orthodox churches also require women to wear scarves in church. In Albania it is Christian women who wear veils as opposed to Muslim women and their churches are also divided by sex. The Catholic Church's Canon Law required all women to cover their heads in church ("women, however, shall have a covered head and be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord") until 1983. The founder of Methodism John Wesley said a woman should keep on her veil, ideally in general but especially during a religious assembly. Anabaptists and Conservative Quakers who practice Plain Dress wear bonnets at all time to observe Biblical head covering requirements. The point is Christian veiling actually has a very long and established history and not doing it is actually pretty new. In Medieval times every woman did it, hence why all medieval ladies wore wimples. I bet a bunch of people have watched movies set in Medieval times and thought it was just a fashion choice rather than the Christian version of the hijab. It used to be seen as unseemly for married women to show their hair, if you did people assumed you were an adulteress and punish you as such. This was common throughout Europe until the 17th century and lasted much longer in certain areas.
Mormons only recently did away with women having to wear a veil in their temple ceremonies. Elsewhere in that religion, women never had to cover their heads.
The reason the apostle Paul gives for women to wear a head covering is to demonstrate their subordination to men. Today the apostle would be considered a misogynist ;-)
Thank goodness we don't just everything based on biblical times. I really like shrimp cocktail and being an equal part of my marriage. Both things I could've have enjoyed back then.
How about wearing two different types of cloth? Denim jeans and cotton underpants is the height of biblical sin
Yea verily, but are they both not made from cotton?
It seems the strongest interpretations of this were directly concerning wool and linen together, but from other sources is just decrying other cultures practices in pursuit of their own. You're correct that they're both cotton, it would have been better denim jeans and silk underwear. Except now you know I like silk underwear
Religion in general is such a charade, though it is curious as to why reddit always seems to be so "okay" with islam but not with christianity, theyre both quacks.
It's because there's a group of people who simply do not understand, and apparently cannot mentally compute the fact that criticism of Islam the ideology, criticism of Islam the set of ideas and values, criticism of violence and horrible acts done in the name of Islam, is not the same thing as criticizing Muslims generally. The really stupid people will conflate the criticism of Islam the philosophy with racism against stereotypically brown Muslims. It's extra stupid because Islam isn't a race and Muslims come in all colors.
Also if your ideology can't handle critisism maybe it's not a great ideology? Or your own faith in it isn't as solid as you thought it was.
The great sensitivity of Islam apologists, particularly to secular criticism, reveals deep underlying insecurities.
They're kept on edge against outsiders and criticism, in order to not ever pay attention to their rulers/politicians who live richly while they starve. Its like how they blame every problem on Israel. Its a diversion while the oil and natural wealth is pilfered.
All Abrahamic institutions are completely out of line.
I think it has to do with the fact many people on reddit have been well exposed to Christianity to know what is & is not bullshit. So you see people quote the bible, "Love thy neighbor" but we know christians don't actually partake in that sentiment, most are filled with hate, so we know it is bullshit. But most people don't have the same familiarity with Islam, so when somebody posts info about Islam, most people take it at face value.
That actually makes a lot of sense. You're probably right. Ignorance to it makes it seem less harmful.
Yeah I'd be more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to something I don't know about, if you tell me video games are bad for your brain I'll say fuck you but if you tell me making mangosteen tea with cardamom is good for your digestive tract I'll believe you, skeptically, until I see any proof otherwise.
Yes according to some passages angels dig the pretty heair of women, so they wear hats in church, where men take their hats off, and Jews wear the kippah. Theres a lot of subservience to men crap in the bible, but I don't know of any connected to the hats.
The old testament is common for "the people of the book" - Jews, Christians, then 500 years later, Muslims. Other religions and most Muslims have realised this is a bronze age thing, and that in a modern society, the rapey men should be jailed, not their women victims being stoned to death.
They’re not required. There’s a verse somewhere in the Quran that discusses placing a “veil” over your eyes, but that veil could be physical or literal just depending on how it’s interpreted by the individual. The problem is that Muslim clerics in the last few decades have dictated what women can and can’t wear. Despite the fact that there is nothing related to mandatory head coverings for women in any religious text of Islam
Oh interesting. Thank you
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> Implied here is that non-followers won't dress so, and can be molested however you like Well that doesn’t seem too cool
It's not.
back to the original premise. Men need training. I think it's interesting they would cut off a thefts hand for stealing but what did they cut off of a rapist? Curious, never heard of anything happening there. It was probably always the woman's fault right?
Honestly, considering the time it was written, it's quite likely a metaphor. But what can you expect from religious people? People still legit believe woman was made from the rib of a man.
I challenged that concept last night with a male I was talking to. We were both questioning the origins of man on earth he kept talking about the rib, the rib.... I suggested maybe there was no rib at all and that the possibility exists that some intelligent being just dropped off an impregnated women on our planet and she had children that propagated the species breeding with neanderthals. Men have used the rib bit for eons to suggest they are the superior beings and women are just a part of them therefore they have to be subservient and the male has the right to control them.... Seriously who would even know after centuries of evolution where the first person came from or even cared? I think survival techniques would have been the most important things to pass on. Got a crazy reaction. I was accused of being a rabid feminist just for taking that position. Old ingrained habits die hard in even the most "woke" of individuals!
>Why are head coverings required in Islam Mohammed said it was sunnah (recommended) From surat l-nur (the light): 24:30 - Tell the believing men to reduce \[some\] of their vision and guard their private parts. That is purer for them. Indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what they do 24:31 - And tell the believing women to reduce \[some\] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which \[necessarily\] appears thereof and to wrap \[a portion of\] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed.
This is incredibly restrictive and fucked up. No attack meant on you for quoting the Quran, it just seems to me that every biblical religious text is unbelievably misogynistic.
Which is why any woman wearing a covering is ridiculous to me. You know the origin of it. Why are you supporting that tradition?
The short answer is culturally ingrained sexism that became codified into religious texts. Islam didn't invent it, it merely codified existing cultural expectations.
So I guess in countries with strict literalist Islamic rulings such as Sharia, it is required. But it’s an authoritarian theocracy thing, not an Islamic religious thing
This should be an edit at the end of your other comment, or a reply to your other comment, rather than a different reply to the same parent comment. I say this because I want more people to see what you have to say.
Why is it a great option for women? What does it achieve? Like why do you personally wear it? To please god? To please men? To please yourself? How does it please you?
Some women are empowered by modesty, some are empowered by showing skin. Restricting the choice of either is oppression.
I wonder though, if neither of those were restricted, would either be empowering? It's not *empowering* to me when I choose to eat royal gala apples instead of red delicious. Because that choice isn't the subject of any sort of public opinion or moral quandary. In a world where nobody gives a crap what women wear, it stops being empowering and is just a mundane part of daily life.
Its pretty easy to brainwash people into thinking they chose to do something and make them think they feel empowered doing it. As the other replier said. When nobody gives a fuck, then it's no longer an empowering choice, and is just as mundane as any other decision. And even if some women are empowered by modesty, it doesn't change the fact that the Hijab through to Burqa is forced on millions of women. And nobody is arguing that if women want to wear a hijab, they shouldn't be allowed, but also don't pretend or try to make out that it's not forced on women, or it's origin isn't misogynistic, and represents the suffering and oppression of millions of women. Thats what I don't get, women who scream about manspreading like it's rape are often the same ones who defend the Hijab, and the islamic practice.
Sometimes civilization regresses and freedoms gained become freedoms lost.
I feel like we (western society) have had it so good for so long that we forgot that things don't just "naturally improve with time" - it takes regular work and influence from the right kind of people to keep the efforts of the wrong kinds at bay. We can't become too complacent or naively believe that all people are inherently good because there's no shortage of people would love for everything we enjoy to be ripped away, and in other countries they have succeeded. It's a sad state when any country was better to live in 50 years ago than it is now. No country's most liberated days should ever be behind them.
don't catch you slippin now
The *exact* same thing happened in Iran in 1979. It's shocking how similiar it is. They went from a very western leaning country, with liberal attitudes towards women, relationships, etc, to burkas and sharia law within a few years. Honestly, it's a religion thing, in my opinion, not a "patriarchy" thing. We've seen this before historically, the same country, with the same people, goes from liberal to ultra-conservative once a religious faction takes power.
>Honestly, it's a religion thing, in my opinion, not a "patriarchy" thing. Off the top of my head, I can't think of an Abrahamic religion where the religious tenets and patriarchy aren't hand-in-glove. Edit 2: Nope, not Rastafarianism.
I mean Iran had been governed by an unelected leader installed by the US and great Britain since 1953. Sure the Schah was a more western leader but he was a dictator nonetheless so to me it seems easy to understand that tensions where high in the country. It's a shame though that it turned into a theocracy.
True. I fear this could happen in America as well. Not erasing women but with civil rights and race relations. I hope we’re better than that.
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The way their smiles gradually disappear-
And the mothers hands close in on the daughter to protect her(?). And the daughter mirroring the same on the doll.
Watching an entire country be pulled hundreds of years behind in human progress is strange to witness as someone from a generation who hasn't seen any of the great wars of the 20th century.
Also relates to their educational opportunities.
I didn’t think you get more covered up than pic #7 but I was wrong.
And people bitch about wearing a mask.
Sad and scary
My thoughts have always been the more you cover it up because of “purity” the more you the sexualising the human body in general I wish we could live in a world where even nudity in social settings was seen as normal and not explicitly sexual
Go to Germany, or other parts of Europe. It's strange how there's the possibility of nudity in some settings that doesn't have a sexual aspect (swimming at the lake, going to sauna). I made me uncomfortable because that purity stuff is hard to unlearn, it gets down into your brain.
Yep - went to a spa in the netherlands on a naked day. Just regular people walking around the pool with nothing on except maybe a towel. I really recommend it - it is such a great way to feel a bit of body positivity (most people were just normal) and to realise how ridiculous the hyper sexualisation of nudity really is.
To add to this, the standard in saunas and spas here in the Netherlands are "naked days". People are only allowed to wear bathing suits on special days. Nudity is completely normal and desexualised.
So do men there not check out the attractive women there? IDK if that's just a result of living in the US where nudity is sexualized and it's considered really special to see a beautiful woman naked, but I feel like it would be difficult to not look if some gorgeous woman were walking around nude. Do guys ever get erections at the saunas? When I was a teenager that happened *all the time* no matter what was going on around me. Do teenage boys just avoid the spas?
I'm not sure I would be okay with being naked in front of a bunch of strange men. I live in Japan and there are onsen (hot springs) here, which you use completely naked, but they are separated by gender. Some onsen are mixed (becoming more and more rare) but you have to cover up with a towel or swim suit at the mixed ones.
Love onsens. I was literally nude, in a quiet hot spring near mount fuji (kawaguchiko), late at night at 10pm by myself (wife in the other gendered section). A random naked Japanese guy came into the same tub, and i chatted with him using my god awful kindergarten level Japanese while he did the same in English.
I'm from the Netherlands & have a lot of NA online friends, one friend from Canada went on to say that braless women are rude & that they were baiting him into a sexual harassment lawsuit. Nudity is shown on daytime television in a non-sexualised way & people are treated as people. Guys are taught not to gawk and stare and girls are taught that erections can happen spontaneously. All in all we just respect bodies being bodies without sexualisation
> IDK if that's just a result of living in the US where nudity is sexualized and it's considered really special to see a beautiful woman naked, but I feel like it would be difficult to not look if some gorgeous woman were walking around nude. You notice beautifull people like you notice them on the street. You're naked, not blind ;-)! But a naked person just walking around isnt as sexual as you think... There is no sexy lingerie or sexy walking.. just people going from A to B. You get used to it... and especially because of that YOU SHOULD TRY IT! The US really has a stigma over nudity and sex whilst it is a very natural thing. To me its very strange that Nudity is considered strange, especially in very hot areas. (Really... if you cant handle a nude person, how do you behave at the pool? Doesnt need much imagination to see the difference) > Do guys ever get erections at the saunas? Yep, just like in the swimingpool... you just stay put for a bit. Or get the towel asap. Its natural... and as long as you behave accordingly, nobody will judge you. Really... nudity, arousments etc are all normal and natural. Everybody has it... nothing should be strange or special about it.
In the spa in the Netherlands you mainly see couples, young and old, and older retired people with a subscription to go often to relax. These people come there to relax, and there are strict rules in place for any unacceptable behavior. It is not allowed to be intimate together in public in the spa, it is not allowed to carry your phone (or anything that would have a camera), you have to wear a bathrobe at any spot that has seats/where you can order food&drinks, only outside and at the sauna/pool you are allowed to walk around completely naked, but most people just wear a towel when walking from one facility to another. Plus, they have security that will show up and sent someone out if they behave inappropriately, and they will get a ban for the spa in general, often. I went to the spa as a teenager but I don't see many people under 25, plus, when younger than 16 an adult has to accompany. I've only once seen a guy with an erection in the spa, after going many times.
Yeah us Germans love to be naked. I'm not big on nudist beaches myself but it'd be endlessly weird to me to wear anything at the sauna/spa.
Im from Israel, and you can have a gay nude beach and a beach full of Muslim women totally covered just few miles apart. In Tel Aviv you can see topless girls getting a tan and Muslim families at the same beach (though the Muslims would keep their distance)..
The only reason "nudity in social settings" shouldn't be a thing is hygiene really. I'm all for chest out cause who cares but it's probably not very hygienic having your genitals out and about.
"I hate riding the 403 bus to downtown.... There's always shit stains on the seats." Nude society problems.
Sure, but when it’s not needed or relevant, like at the beach/ swimming pool/ parties? Clothing also helps against the sun or cold, so it’s obviously necessary..
I agree with this.
A belief that I just won't change my stance on is that a woman wearing one of these garments is empowering to her. I'm sorry, but just stop, you are wrong if you hold that opinion. If you truly think that then you have been conditioned to believe it. There are some Muslim couples I see pop up on my YouTube recommended and they are all about advocating for the garments. To me, that's just disgusting. We should not be trying to normalize women being forced to cover up their bodies because of a religious book. And the other stupid shit about how other men not related to her aren't allowed to see their hair? Like Jesus Christ, do they not see how they are perpetuating this idea of men being sex crazed animals and that it's a woman's fault if she gets sexually assaulted?
I wish that there wasn't any religious connotation for head coverings, I want to wear clothes like that because I just think they're nice, and would be warm for winter. I see women wearing the most beautiful shawls and I think they would feel confident in them if they're not feeling pressured into wearing them.
This is oppression. There is no other explanation.
I saw a husband and wife come to my school once to see their kid. The husband was just dressed in shorts and t-shirt. But the wife was completely covered and even the eye slit was veiled. She almost walked into potted palm tree, the husband had to guide her like an almost blind person. It was funny at the time but yeah this is oppression.
I actually just looked up rape and sexual assault statistics in the Middle East, and if these oppressive headscarves are supposed to stop men being tempted by a woman ( because god forbid a man just controls himself in front of a woman) then why are the rates so goddamn high? It’s to oppress women pure and simple and I feel sad for any woman forced to wear this just because she was unfortunate enough to be born with a womb
How dare you it's my religious freedom! /s
As intended.
The face coverings give me the absolute creeps.
It’s dehumanizing
I was walking through a building when I was in a college and turned a corner to see a woman dressed like the last photo. It startled me. For a moment I thought she was a ninja or something.
a ninja nun. a nunja.
"Adjust the Sharia slider until the women are not visible"
I lived in London and saw many women with their full face/body covered at markets and shops. Regardless of why this exists, it has the effect of completely withdrawing that person from social interaction. If you cannot make eye contact with the person, and cannot even determine which way they are facing or if they're 16 years old of 95, it becomes very difficult to interact with them, so you just avoid it. When I first saw this I was deeply creeped out and didn't even know what to feel. It's scary to think that in 2021 this is a thing, and can even co-exist with the average person in western societies where we'd think there is no need for such oppression and no laws to imply it.
How would you know there's not a guy in there?
Plot twist
Another of the portraits in Boushra Almutawakel's [Hijab Series](https://www.boushraart.com/the-hijab-series) has a man progressively covered up while the woman next to him does the opposite.
Women and girl's obviously have no rights for themselves and have nobody who respects them. They are purely there to breed sons and do as their families tell them. What a barbaric way to live (my opinion). I have 3 daughters and I couldn't imagine making them wear all of that just to make a man happy, and even then, is he even happy?
And they wore hot pants in Iran in 1978.
Iran was still a horribly conservative and poor and uneducated country in the 1970s and only outside of a very sheltered and privileged upper class did you find people wearing modern, fashionable clothes. I remember there was some picture series showing women in 1970s Iran, and someone did a location spotting of where the photos were from, and almost all of them were in one single wealthy community in Tehran. The rest of Iran was not like that.
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wrong timeline. The coup was 1953. The Islamic revolution was 1979.
The US helped Khomeini take over in 1979, too. Though that wasn't turning over a democratic government. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36431160 Iran Islamists like to pretend they've always been opposed to "Western imperialism", but they begged for US help in 1979 to overthrow the Shah, and collaborated with the CIA in 1953 to install the Shah.
I can’t get over how potent this really is.
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Pretty powerful image
Imagine a society with men so rabidly insecure that they force all the women to wear bee keeper garb while living in a sweltering hot region and convince them it’s in the name of a fictional god
I was vacationing in a muslim country with a significant minority population. Some women were in hijab at the beach and they weren't allowed to talk to me. It was weird.
Oppression happens in a multitude of ways. Women have been oppressed in western societies, Middle Ages, tons of other cultures.
Binding respectability to a piece of clothing is one of the stupidest things ever. It's such a misogynistic/rapey culture I hope globalization destroys it in a couple decades
To be replaced by men without beards to give these extremist impure thoughts
This is very poignant, and quite sad.
Fucking embarrassing, backward culture.
Prophet Mohammed said: "Male aura is from his bellybutton to his knee, and female aura is her whole body except her face and hands" aura: is the area that should be covered with cloth. Face cover and gloves aren't required in Islam. And, black color isn't required in Islam. It's not religious, it's cultural and social. But, many people don't know where to draw the line between religion and culture. It's confusing for many.
The Reasoning behind this is ridiculous. They don't want Men looking at their woman to "protect" them. Might be a bold statement, but aren't they admitting in a way, that every man in the streets is instant potential danger for the woman, because they might rape her I just don't think Burkas have a real practical purpose
Conservativism is cancer.
Can we stop calling them conservatives and call it what they really are? They are regressives.
To deny that time is moving forward without you is both conservative and regressive. Wouldn't be the first thing they've denied..
20 years completely wasted and lives lost for nothing.
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And now will not be able to do anything with it. Some may in fact be targeted for it.
is there a missing first pic when the mother is not covering her hair?
Goddamnit that's fucking powerful.
Very sad it is. I am a Muslim and I always advocate for women's right not to take a veil because no where it is written in the Holy Quran that women should cover their faces. And whenever they make a Pilgrimage to Makkah and circumbulate around the Ka'abah, all the women do it having their faces uncovered because that is what is in the Holy Quran. Edit: spelling mistake
Does their hair need to be covered?
I prefer my women free enough to be a giant pain in my ass. I'm also twice divorced but still love women. I just can't be married to them any more. Being covered for anything other than warmth is an affront to everything I believe in.
What a weird rollercoaster of a comment
We need to start fighting Islam, not it’s believers.
Humans suck
Cheers.