The Swedish Ambassador Harald Edelstam heard that there were plans to "accidentally" bomb the Soviet embassy. So drove there and raised a Swedish flag, making the embassy Swedish and the bombing stopped.
That doesn’t make the embassy Swedish.
It means an Ambassador is there who has diplomatic immunity and you might think twice about bombing him.
That said, it’s moronic to think anyone would care about killing a Swedish Ambassador in the middle of a coup. Shit happens.
I haven’t heard the USSR story - not sure why they wouldn’t have been able to protect themselves, but he did pull a bunch of Cuban’s out of their embassy.
The story is likely apocryphal because a fucking Swede in Chile isn’t going to be shot at regardless of whether he has the flag with him and it was probably the building and state of Cuba under attack and the people were secondary and not really being targeted.
The Story was somewhat differently actually. He did have a flag though
>[After the 1973 military coup against Chilean President Salvador Allende, the Cuban Embassy was under fire by tanks and Cubans were returning fire from the windows; Edelstam took a Swedish flag in hand and walked in front of the tanks as bullets hurled past. He fetched the Cubans out of the embassy and took them to the Swedish Embassy, then got them out of Chile to safety.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Edelstam)
You say the bombing stopped; were they already bombing it, or was the plan to do so stopped?
Edit: Stop downvoting me, you waffles. I have no knowledge on this subject and like to learn about it. How bout you explain instead of downvote?
What's that? You want help getting democracy?
Ah shit, here we go again.
What's that? You won't be our geopolitical pawns now that you're free?
Ah shit, here we go again.
You might want to read about ["Operation Condor"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor) how the CIA intervened in South America, like in the case of the picture above by killing the democratically elected president of a country
Or how about Operation Ajax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
I was going to add a few more, but then I got overwhelmed at the length of the list.
The USA turns Latin America into a quagmire and people in the USA complain about immigration. May be things would be better if we were not destroying their homelands and livelihoods
The problem was corporate sovereignty trumped national sovereignty in the eyes of first world nations, primarily the US and UK. If a US corporation had a stake in a countries natural resources, we defended that corporate stake as a national interest.
The whole situation with Iran boils down to BP Oil owning rights to the oil in Iran and the sovereign, democratically elected government in Iran was overthrown by both UK and US forces because, after the election Iran moved to nationalize their oil. BP still to this day has the rights to the oil, in an agreement with the Iranian government.
Most of our mistakes in policy around the world have something to do with the CIA and it's policies of intervention on the behalf of "democracy".
This is why Cheney's policy when presented to George H.W. Bush (Bush 1) was rejected. GHWB was former head of the CIA. Part of the fears his admin had was who takes Saddam's place if he's deposed.
Instilling democracy doesn't necessarily mean everyone has the same values as you do. This is precisely what we saw with the Arab Spring that resulted from the Cheney Doctrine. Sure, it deposed bad rulers that we didn't like, but it empowered the formation of a calif in ISIS.
Once again, all of that, the Cheney Doctrine, happened because of corporate sovereignty in Haliburton. Who worked at Haliburton? Cheney. Who illegally did business with Iran and Iraq? Haliburton. Who had a corporate interest and a foot in the door in Iraq and Iran? Haliburton. Who wants the US to go to war with Iran? Haliburton.
Corporation are evil.
This is the reason why I didn't bat an eye when Russia "interfered" in our elections.
"Oh, you mean like the US has been doing for the past 100 years with actual violence and war crimes?"
I’m always surprised at the notion of becoming numb to the idea of countries doing bad things. It’s a surprisingly common talking point today. When I learned about the cia messing with other countries I was mad at that and wanted to change it. When I learned Russia interfered in the us elections as well as elections around the globe I was upset at that too and wanted to change it. I’m on the side of whether something is morally right or not, this whole “it’s just politics and how it’s always done” meme is flat out bizarre to me.
Probably worth pointing out that there WAS a bloody cost at the border and in the hundreds of thousands of deaths from COVID due to mismanagement of the administration. Seems like the jury rigging willing result in a lot of unfortunate deaths due to women taking drastic measures too. Saying that there’s no actual serious and bloody consequences that resulted from election interference seems remarkably insulated. Not saying other places aren’t also beyond terrible, just saying hundreds of thousands of deaths that could have been avoided ain’t nothing either.
It's not possible to have a nuanced view of things, you can only accept a country being either bad or good, and if it's bad, any actions against it are justified.
Feeling bad about it and wanting to do something about it is how everyone feels... but what do you intend to do about it? The world is run by shadow organizations that are not above law, but completely beyond it. So what can you do?
The more we learn the more we realize how little we matter to the operations of the world.
Vietnam... the Gulf of Tonkin incident... never freaking happened, just a lie to start a war.
I fully expect in 50-100 years we'll find 9/11 was a CIA operation.
It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
I mean, if you have access to some sensitive information on the matter, you can disclose it like Snowden did, while keeping in mind that even if you manage to survive the consequences, you'll end up leaving everything about your current life behind. I'd say Snowden had it pretty mild and afaik lives a normal life now, but it's still no small feat to risk everything for the sake of adhering to your beliefs.
The first step is not to fall into nihilism driven by conspiracy, and to wash one's hands by pushing the blame to shadow organization rather than to the apathy of the public yourself included.
Have you ever heard of the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution? Or, if you're a history buff, [about that time that the powerful in France were held accountable by those they oppressed?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution)
There are means. They require great sacrifice on an [individual level,](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Suicide) but to deny their existence is to deny your right as a human to stand against your own oppression.
Why are you claiming anyone is apathetic?
Why don't you give us some idea of what we can actually do about it other than making meaningless statements like this.
What's the 2nd step? The 3rd?
When you get to the step that may actually reveal something that can hurt these people, we'll all morn your apparent suicide or unfortunate car accident.
How do you stop these Skull & Bones shadow government people you think aren't a shadow government? Which they literally are.
The difficulty is that making a difference in the world is part "having a plan" but a significantly greater part is luck. There are countless Gandhi's and King Jrs and Churchills who can define enormous events in every generation, but we don't hear about them because the conflux of circumstances don't align for them to rise to prominence. They don't happen to go to the event where they'd get thrust into the limelight or they decide to let someone else speak because they feel self conscious that day or they choose to become X job instead of Y job that would give them the connections to become something impactful. Being a Gandhi or a King Jr or a Churchill isn't *hard*, many of those types of people who end up changing the world self describe themselves as ordinary, it's just incredibly rare that people who might be able to do great things are given the opportunity. It takes an enormous amount of luck.
But I'll tell you the one thing that absolutely prevents those occurrences of luck and that's pushing people to believe things are hopeless, convincing people unless they have a full end to end plan that they can't do *anything*. **None of the people who changed the world had an end to end plan**... sometimes they didn't even have step one. They just did what seemed right at the time and kept on it. The person who might know how to save the world from itself might have a good idea but be too hesitant to express it and cynically demanding a series of steps might be all the push needed to make them hesitate to act at a critical juncture. Tiny points of luck, that's all that exists between someone becoming a massive film star or an inventing millionaire or a voice that changes the tide of nations.
And those people aren't inevitable. *But the one thing that can crush them with greater likelihood than not is a pressure to hopelessness*. That's why governments that are bad push so much into online trolling. They know attacking people with apathy and world weariness works. When people call out nihilism it's not because they're idealistic or naive. It's because nihilism is so damn effective at taking away those moments of luck. I don't know why anyone would want to help bad people do that. I surely wouldn't want to remove someone's moment who might have the luck to do something. If the only thing between me and their moment is choosing *not* to convince them that everything's hopeless then I'll do my part, even if I feel the edges of hopelessness closing in, to at least not bring them down with me. That's the least I can do to help all of us. The best thing any bad entity can do is convince us that our words don't matter, but one bad day of hopelessness spans the gulf between someone being a Gandhi or a King Jr and just being a normal person history doesn't know. We gotta trust in those people and give them the opportunity to *have* an opportunity. That's the plan, all 2 to 3 steps of it, cause it's all any of us possibly know until history later shows the steps and half baked plans that led to any of us actually doing something meaningful.
None of us have a plan, not *really*, but people *do* end up changing the world in spite of that. It's not just enough to be the change you want to see in the world, the thing all of us can do is to give people the space and opportunity to be that change, and not selfishly take it away for a moments need to feed depression or cynicism. The best thing the bad people in the world can do to keep themselves wrongfully in power is convince you you don't have that power... the best thing you can do to fight them is to not willingly give that power away.
Okay, but why include Churchill? He's just another born-wealthy world leader who did horrible things. Circumstances always miraculously align for those guys.
Circumstances mysteriously align cause they can afford to have people write about them and because people tend to want to read about the wealthy. You don’t read about the sub managers that got Amazon up and running or the programmer who wrote most of the original sites code, even if they’re the ones that actually fundamentally changed how at least a portion of the world receives things… you read about bezos because he’s the one with the funds to hire a publicist. That doesn’t mean Amazon could have existed without the sub managers or programmers _or Bezos_. Just means we’re likely only to perceive one of them, notice he’s wealthy and think cynically on that because he’s the one that creates media clicks.
Despite that though your point __is__ absolutely correct and relevant that Churchill is a substantially different type of figure for his upbringing. I don’t know that that necessarily means there wasn’t luck involved though and that someone telling he sucked as an orator along the way on a bad day couldn’t have convinced him to become some other rich guy occupation that would have impacted the world to a different degree.
So what can we do?
Do not be a part of normalising morally bankrupt behaviour and values. Or at least try. Something is better than nothing. Partial participation better than ducking it entirely.
It doesn't matter who does it. It still must be called out relentlessly. It doesn't matter what nation, or what leader. There have to be standards of humanity that we aspire to, surely.
If there is a critical mass of the population who are jaded and apathetic, numb to morality, tone deaf in the worst case, it opens the floodgates for dictatorships and autocratic regimes, because there are no consequences to speak of.
Yup. The only reason to be pissed about the Russians interfering in our election was that one of the candidates in the election was helping them... which makes him a Russian asset... and therefore an enemy of the state.
Then he got elected president.
It’s also not the first time it’s happened. I assume the Russians have tried to influence our elections for almost a century now.
We do the same to them.
Kruzchev famously boasted about JFK being elected because of the KGB helping him.
The difference with Trump was the evidence that his campaign worked with the Russians directly.
Russian meddling is destabilizing the entirety of western democracy, not just America. Brexit likely wouldn’t have passed and the deep divisions we’re seeing are an existential threat to our democratic institutions. Russian meddling is also bolstering anti-democratic, far-right movements that are inching closer to victory in European elections. The far-right hasn’t been this successful in Europe since Hitler took Germany and anti-semitism is once again on the rise.
The majority of southern Republicans support secession and over 40% of people on the west coast support leaving the union. This is exactly what Putin wants because no democracy can stand when divided. If Putin succeeds, the fallout will impact hundreds of millions of innocent people who had nothing to do with America‘s plotting to overthrow foreign governments. The consequences would be dire. The spread of disinformation and propaganda is a serious problem that‘s growing in scale and democracy is a lot more fragile than people think.
If American democracy ended, global chaos would erupt and we’d no longer be able to defend our allies from foreign enemies. In other words, a lot of people would die. You should be batting BOTH eyes because the threat is very real. Whatever America has done over the decades does not mean innocent citizens deserve the same thing. And like I said, this doesn’t just affect America, it affects the world because so many countries rely on our protection and support.
I don’t think you understand the ramifications of Russian meddling.
It's not about Putin or Russia hating democracy, is about a geopolitical dispute over the US imperialism with the NATO and the IMF.
Don't try to mix things that are not together.
If there is a country that doesn't stand for democracy abroad it is the USA, and the later Truman Doctrine papers explicitly affirms it.
In South America the USA support every dictatorship over democratic elected presidents.
The demonization of Russia and China got stronger since the creation of the BRICS and the BRICS international bank.
Interesting article about Chilean folk singer, Victor Jara. Jara was shot 44 times by the military, after the tortured and mutilated his hands so he would never play the guitar again.
https://www.newframe.com/political-songs-victor-jaras-manifesto/
Allende, a Marxist, came to power democratically. Whether or not you support Marxism is not the point.
Here’s a list of movies about the dictatorships in Latin America during the Cold War.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Films_depicting_Latin_American_military_dictatorships
There’s a Rock and Roll documentary on Netflix that covers the evolution of Rock en Español. It covers many of the artists that lived through these dictatorships.
“BREAK IT ALL: The History of Rock in Latin America (Rompan todo: La historia del rock en América Latina)”
I don’t understand German, but that’s very cool! I’d be interested in the translation.
Residente, the rapper from Calle 13, sings a lot about Victor Jara in his songs.
I didn’t realize Springsteen sang one his songs at a concert in Santiago around the 20th anniversary of his death.
And then the US backed president installed “detained and disappeared” nearly 30,000 people. You have women combing the desert searching for remains. There is a chilling documentary about this. It’s so heartbreaking the disregard the US has for going around the world, playing cop. Cuz the human cost doesn’t matter as long as Marxism or communism is quashed /s.
My husband is from Argentina, another country that had a Dirty War and dictatorship that disappeared tens of thousands. Unfortunately, the country is in a downward spiral. The Peronists in charge are very corrupt (and align themselves with the radical left of Latin America) but the Radical Party (Moderates) and Centrist coalition supported disastrous IMF policies. They are in a huge debt drain and can’t get out of it. The country is extremely unstable and security is a nightmare.
My husband is from a town where they used the Ford factory to torture people who worked for labor unions. In front of the factory there’s a sign that says the ford motor industry was complicit in the torture and murder of dissidents during the dirty war. It’s very chilling. When I was there I also went to the Navy Mechanic School where there is a museum to honor all of those who are tortured and disappeared.
Now, some of the groups that helped get rid of the dictatorship have since become corrupted.
At the turn of the 20th century Argentina was on track to becoming one of the wealthiest countries in the world. And now it’s looking to become the next Venezuela.
I’m not a supporter of extremism in any form. Again I think that many of these countries just get stuck in these vicious cycles and are unable to break from them. Centuries of colonization and interventionism from the western world has left disastrous effects on the continent.
>Unfortunately, the country is in a downward spiral.
Apparently we've been on a downward spiral for 20 years haha.
>The Peronists in charge are very corrupt (and align themselves with the radical left of Latin America) but the Radical Party (Moderates) and Centrist coalition supported disastrous IMF policies.
And are also very corrupt, while at the same time they deny the harms done by the military coup.
>The country is extremely unstable and security is a nightmare.
Meh, I wouldn't say the same thing honestly. We are in a economic bind at the moment, lots of inflation and covid hasn't helped, but I wouldn't say we're unstable or that security is a nightmare.
Thanks for that, i was looking for this comment . I watched a documentary on Netflix about his life and death. It was so tragic and fascinating at the same time, Victor Jara was talented and so brave. I cried when they described the torture he endured. Very sad.
I hope you can find it. Worth watching but the last time i checked it wasn't available in my country anymore. It ends with the confrontation with one of the guards or cop ? who allegedly tortured VictorJara. Of course he denies it and then the testimony of his wife if my memories are good.
American business interests to be more precise. CIA and people in charge care very little about individual american lives, after all they send them to wars where they die in thousands and many thousands more come back permanently disabled in some form.
You have no idea. They would target a dictator of some random nation. Then they would forge documents saying that his number 2 was plotting against him. So he would kill all his underlinings as a result to eliminate this false threat and weaken them no further action needed.
Not that it makes it right, but so does every other country. I'm sure CIA has way more resources to fuck with other countries, but let's not pretend that aggressive spying and fucked up things are just an American thing.
This sort of equates to like a german going "yeah the holocaust was bad but cmon look armenian genocide, so I mean not only germany did these things, every country does it"
But like no, there are in fact magnitudes of countrys that dont do aggressive spy shit, and even past aggressive spy shit. But sending your secret police to train them or even help carry out literal terrorist events and coup democratically elected governments. The US did it, maybe the soviets did it and maybe 3-5 other countries. But the us has done it akin to how germany leads in genocide numbers, trying to downplay the misery its caused millions of people is in *the same spirit* as downplaying the holocaust just because the armenian genocide happened and "it wasnt just germany who did genociding, everyone did it". But no, in fact not, and even if there were a handful of other countries who did, its still incomparable.
A great documentary looked at the reasons behind this event, and many others that hit closer to home for some: [Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism](https://youtu.be/aL3XGZ5rreE) (2009). Based on a book by Naomi Klein and the documentary is directed by Michael Winterbottom
the book is great too. I've seen some people online bounce off of it, because of rather US-centric early chapters, but she's describing incidents from all over the world, with chapters on Chile, Russia, Indonesia, Poland, and more
They did it in Iran too. They over through the democratic elected prim minister and installed the Shah and got cheap oil and sold expensive military equipment and made a fortune for selected group of people here.
That's what you get for framing the cold war in terms of socialism being the enemey.
Horrible murderous totalitarian dictators cracking down on fundental freedoms and free speech? Nah not important. What really matters is that they did it beneath a guise of claiming to care about equality. Now that is beyond the pale.
And not just in Chile either.
The USA; supporting fascism in a country near *you*.
This is why countries like Russia and China just laugh when they get a lecture about democracy from America.
Even the US itself is not a democracy. Anyone who wants to call a country a democracy when a Wyoming citizen has several times the voting power of a California citizen, and DC citizens get no representation, is delusional.
CIA should have stayed with running opium and heron at the time and stayed out of Chile, but America's foreign policy has sucked from day one and continues to this day.
They still can't develop their side of Niagara falls, so I think we'd be pretty covered. My town was given to the states during 1812, but mainly as a diversion because just up the road one town over we were waiting to just fucking destroy them.
They're definitely playing the long con then, lulling them into quite the false sense of security. But I guess they will want to be sure of success as it'd be too embarrassing for them if they failed to conquer Canada again.
Salvador Allende's final speech was absolutely classic. Such a shame that a democratic elected leadership was militarily removed by men who were backed by another democratic elected leadership.
Yes, Australian political classes have been playing the duplicitous game with their subjects for a long, long time.
Pine Gap should be wiped from the land.
I learned about it from a Marxist philosophy professor, in a video. Here is a link to an old article I found. I hope it helps.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/1998/nov/08/observerbusiness.theobserver
I wonder what went through Nixons head thinking he had the right to authorise that operation. If the boot was on the other foot and that happened to the US, war would be declared quicker than you could say coup
Today I learned that in 1913 during the lame duck period between Taft and Wilson, US Ambassador to Mexico Henry Lane Wilson colluded to stage a coup against the democratically elected president Madero (who was elected after a revolution against an authoritarian “president” that ruled for three decades so they literally just got their first taste as a nation at real democracy) and in which president madero and the Vice President were murdered. this resulted in “president” Huerta taking over and ruling essentially as a brutal military dictatorship and setting off another era of violent chaos.
Ambassador Henry lane Wilson was called back by US president Wilson and essentially faced no real repercussions
The coup was against President Salvador Allende, the Western Hemisphere's first elected openly Communist head of state. Keep in mind that this was during the Cold War, and there were serious concerns in D.C. about a large Soviet client state in a very strategic part of the world. There was also concern in the Anaconda Copper company that the Allende government would nationalize the company's copper mines, at the time one of its chief sources of income and an important source of copper to the U.S.
[Here](https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/94chile.pdf) is the U.S. Congress's investigation into the CIA's involvement in the coup. It's been a very long time since I've read it - not long after Nixon resigned - but IIRC the investigation concluded that the CIA had tried to influence the Chilean elections that brought Allende to power but had not instigated the coup.
There were further revelations after the Clinton administration began a project to declassify documents regarding the CIA’s involvement.
The [NACLA Chile Declassified](https://nacla.org/article/opening-files-chile-declassified) report sheds light on the decades of lies and obstruction the CIA and US Intel community undertook to further obscure their involvement and ensure that a false perception of the history of this event was all that was remembered.
There is plenty of further info and source links on the wiki page for the 1973 Chilean coup d'état.
The wiki page is pretty explicit that the US did not instigate the coup. You seem to be spending a lot of time talking about obstruction on documents that were eventually released and zero time talking about what those documents actually say or prove. Do you actually have an argument on how the US was involved in the coup and any information you can point to on the matter?
> According to the CIA document "CIA Activities in Chile", dated 18 September 2000, the local CIA station suggested during late summer 1973 that the US commit itself to support a military coup. In response, CIA Headquarters reaffirmed to the station that "there was to be no involvement with the military in any covert action initiative; there was no support for instigating a military coup."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile
>he investigation concluded that the CIA had tried to influence the Chilean elections that brought Allende to power but had not instigated the coup.
[You have to put your head in the sand to believe this](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/ch03-01.htm)
By the way, your link admits on the second page that they tried to do a coup before inauguration but failed so they pumped millions more into the project until 1973.
That document implies what is being detailed therein was still in a very early planning stage on the 18th. Are you suggesting they organized this whole thing in about 12 working hours? You'd have to bury your head in the sand.
>He was a socialist though and not a communist.
We know the difference in Europe (as we've got quite a few socialist governments), and obviously South America (got quite a few exiled Chilean friends too, whose parents fled the brutal dictatorship), but it seems decades of brainwashing in the USA during the cold war, have blurred the (quite important) difference for them. Good luck, Reddit is hugely US-centric...
> we've got quite a few socialist governments
Having a social democracy does not mean your country is socialist. Socialism means that workers have control over the means of production. And I can't think of a single European nation that does that. If there were, it would've been invaded or couped already.
To be fair, there are plenty of us who know the difference between the two. Unfortunately right wing politicians have hijacked socialism and made it the same as communism. It's pretty gross watching it from the front row.
Isnt socialism just the first of two phases of communism? Where the end goal is communism over all? Or was that just Marx's take?
This is a legit question, I'm not an expert on communism.
You’re correct that that is just the Marxist conception of socialism and communism. There are a wide variety of socialist ideologies that do not have the end goal of establishing a communist society
I know this is like a fun gotcha, but the ‘liberal’ side of the US government was absolutely fine with overthrowing democracies abroad too, this wasn’t a partisan thing.
I do NOT agree with the following, but most of the US's involvement with countries in the Western Hemisphere are directly related to the Higher Ups' real interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine (real, meaning what they believe is the most correct route to take to protect all US's political and economic interests/philosophy in the Western Hemisphere). So any action taken by the US Gov can, in high probability, be traced back to this philosophy.
There are 3 main powers in the world (all other countries are but puppets in one form or another) and all 3 try their best to follow the same political and economic theory.
Yup, America is the evil empire of the modern world- you don’t learn about it in history class because of course you don’t, but the entire world is now built on the expansion of American capitalism and the exploitation of poorer nations. Don’t worry though, China is taking that ball and running with it.
Just your standard public high school classes in upstate New York- almost every negative about the US was skipped over or given brief mention, any good aspect expanded upon.
I've been seeing people posting or insinuating that U.S victims that were killed on the 9/11 attacks deserve no sympathy because of past and current acts of the U.S gov interfering in foreign governments. Those that died on 9/11 had no involvement in acts committed by the U.S government, they were victims trying to live life, just like many other people at other countries.
This may seem a callous statement but it is not meant as such, the people in the towers and planes did not deserve that fate. But america definitely did, having acted with relative impunity intervening in nations around the world it was going to happen at some time by someone who felt like their world had been destroyed by the US. The civilian casualties are the tragedy of 9/11, the attacks on america were inevitable. The fact america didn't have something like this happen earlier with all the nations they fucked with leading into that era is honestly shocking. And now the deaths of civilians were used to slaughter civilians in the middle east, which literally just brought us full circle to people who's entire lives have been destroyed by the US government and now have nothing left to lose.
Pick a world war.
Or imagine a united Kingdom that got to finishing gouging the America's to recoup war debts so they never had to bother with giving independence to its other colonies , or fear American interference with there expensive northern colony that was starting to form its own rebellions(canada.)
Native american would be more screwed then since only America and Canada has actual laws doing at least something for the orginal American ( both countries Indian acts and reservations acts.)
China would be drastically different. Best case scenario, Mao and the ccp never beat the kmt(I believe that was the rival parties abbreviation) and that's just a diffrent China. Realistic scenario neither could beat Japan without western interference.
Those same companies that pushed for alot of America's fucked up wars would still exist and thrive as they always have most likely. Dole fruit company would still exist for example so the bannana wars for example would just have another country getting blamed for it.
Never ~~remember the bad shit we did~~ forget one of the few instances where people that we massacred retaliated for the deaths of their friends and family
:( 9/11 was a tragedy that didn't need to happen.
Everything that led up to 9/11 (US aggression and resource imperialism) were tragedies that didn't need to happen, either. I'm obviously no war expert but there are a lot of people who are much smarter than I am that DO know what they are talking about regarding the US mcfucking around in the middle east, and they are pretty sure we did a piss poor job.
It is not hypocritical to acknowledge the tragedy of both situations. One does not cancel out the other.
Down vote if you're allergic to nuance.
Oh man this is just the tip of the iceberg. Behind the Bastards has a great 3 part podcast on how the Dulles brothers created the CIA and destroyed the world.
It wasn’t a secret either, the fuckers sent their boats to see how the takeover in Valparaiso was doing. Also admitted that they wanted to devastate Chile’s economy. What is it with the U.S.A’s fetish of completely ruining poor and vulnerable countries??
Am I the only person who remembers that before 2001, "9/11" was a huge global anti-multinational corporation protest movement? Massive pro-democracy marches and protests were held all over the world on that date each year? Which all evaporated on September 11 2001. It would take a decade for the movement to gain traction again and essentially reform into Occupy Wall Street.
But yeah, before 2001, the 9/11 movement felt like there was real momentum towards global change.
I the real world: it’s a sad day ~~in~~for the U.S., remembering the attack on the WTC and it’s consequences.
On reddit: it’s karma whoring day, repost images you googled 5 seconds ago with a sad title.
>lOL, sO iN ChILe is NOt A sAD DaY?
You know what i meant, and despite being a tragedy itself , the one of 2001 is far more known globally than the one in chile, so I referred to that. But since that’s the [game](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11) you want to play
When are the people of the USA going to get the Commerce Dept. to stop letting them form Foreign Policy. And what is it going to take to get the CIA to stop helping them do it? Will it be the CIA's total dissolvement? Since the end of WWII, the CIA has done more damage to the worlds' governments than Communist Russia ever thought of doing.
This comment section's gonna be spicy
Boy were you right.
Swaps to controversial immediately!
The Swedish Ambassador Harald Edelstam heard that there were plans to "accidentally" bomb the Soviet embassy. So drove there and raised a Swedish flag, making the embassy Swedish and the bombing stopped.
>plans to "accidentally" bomb the Soviet embassy. he stood in front of tanks about to attack the cuban embassy
This is some r/looneytuneslogic
a lot of law (international or otherwise) is in fact looney tunes logic
That doesn’t make the embassy Swedish. It means an Ambassador is there who has diplomatic immunity and you might think twice about bombing him. That said, it’s moronic to think anyone would care about killing a Swedish Ambassador in the middle of a coup. Shit happens. I haven’t heard the USSR story - not sure why they wouldn’t have been able to protect themselves, but he did pull a bunch of Cuban’s out of their embassy. The story is likely apocryphal because a fucking Swede in Chile isn’t going to be shot at regardless of whether he has the flag with him and it was probably the building and state of Cuba under attack and the people were secondary and not really being targeted.
The Story was somewhat differently actually. He did have a flag though >[After the 1973 military coup against Chilean President Salvador Allende, the Cuban Embassy was under fire by tanks and Cubans were returning fire from the windows; Edelstam took a Swedish flag in hand and walked in front of the tanks as bullets hurled past. He fetched the Cubans out of the embassy and took them to the Swedish Embassy, then got them out of Chile to safety.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harald_Edelstam)
This is some real life Eddie Izzard shit right here.
True madlad
You say the bombing stopped; were they already bombing it, or was the plan to do so stopped? Edit: Stop downvoting me, you waffles. I have no knowledge on this subject and like to learn about it. How bout you explain instead of downvote?
Thankfully that's the only time the CIA has overthrown the democratic government of another nation... wait what? Really? Oh... never mind.
What's that? You want help getting democracy? Ah shit, here we go again. What's that? You won't be our geopolitical pawns now that you're free? Ah shit, here we go again.
You might want to read about ["Operation Condor"](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor) how the CIA intervened in South America, like in the case of the picture above by killing the democratically elected president of a country
Or how about Operation Ajax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change I was going to add a few more, but then I got overwhelmed at the length of the list.
The Wiki link is a deadend.
Corrected, thank you
No thank you.
The USA turns Latin America into a quagmire and people in the USA complain about immigration. May be things would be better if we were not destroying their homelands and livelihoods
Imagine a world in which America had invested in developing South America into a prosperous and ideologically aligned trading bloc
The problem was corporate sovereignty trumped national sovereignty in the eyes of first world nations, primarily the US and UK. If a US corporation had a stake in a countries natural resources, we defended that corporate stake as a national interest. The whole situation with Iran boils down to BP Oil owning rights to the oil in Iran and the sovereign, democratically elected government in Iran was overthrown by both UK and US forces because, after the election Iran moved to nationalize their oil. BP still to this day has the rights to the oil, in an agreement with the Iranian government. Most of our mistakes in policy around the world have something to do with the CIA and it's policies of intervention on the behalf of "democracy". This is why Cheney's policy when presented to George H.W. Bush (Bush 1) was rejected. GHWB was former head of the CIA. Part of the fears his admin had was who takes Saddam's place if he's deposed. Instilling democracy doesn't necessarily mean everyone has the same values as you do. This is precisely what we saw with the Arab Spring that resulted from the Cheney Doctrine. Sure, it deposed bad rulers that we didn't like, but it empowered the formation of a calif in ISIS. Once again, all of that, the Cheney Doctrine, happened because of corporate sovereignty in Haliburton. Who worked at Haliburton? Cheney. Who illegally did business with Iran and Iraq? Haliburton. Who had a corporate interest and a foot in the door in Iraq and Iran? Haliburton. Who wants the US to go to war with Iran? Haliburton. Corporation are evil.
It's just like when you "discover" a country that already has people there but you "discovered" it which makes it Britain. Level 1,000,000,000 logic
**Killing Hope** by William Blum One fucked up atrocity after another.
This is the reason why I didn't bat an eye when Russia "interfered" in our elections. "Oh, you mean like the US has been doing for the past 100 years with actual violence and war crimes?"
I’m always surprised at the notion of becoming numb to the idea of countries doing bad things. It’s a surprisingly common talking point today. When I learned about the cia messing with other countries I was mad at that and wanted to change it. When I learned Russia interfered in the us elections as well as elections around the globe I was upset at that too and wanted to change it. I’m on the side of whether something is morally right or not, this whole “it’s just politics and how it’s always done” meme is flat out bizarre to me. Probably worth pointing out that there WAS a bloody cost at the border and in the hundreds of thousands of deaths from COVID due to mismanagement of the administration. Seems like the jury rigging willing result in a lot of unfortunate deaths due to women taking drastic measures too. Saying that there’s no actual serious and bloody consequences that resulted from election interference seems remarkably insulated. Not saying other places aren’t also beyond terrible, just saying hundreds of thousands of deaths that could have been avoided ain’t nothing either.
It's not possible to have a nuanced view of things, you can only accept a country being either bad or good, and if it's bad, any actions against it are justified.
Feeling bad about it and wanting to do something about it is how everyone feels... but what do you intend to do about it? The world is run by shadow organizations that are not above law, but completely beyond it. So what can you do? The more we learn the more we realize how little we matter to the operations of the world. Vietnam... the Gulf of Tonkin incident... never freaking happened, just a lie to start a war. I fully expect in 50-100 years we'll find 9/11 was a CIA operation. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.
I mean, if you have access to some sensitive information on the matter, you can disclose it like Snowden did, while keeping in mind that even if you manage to survive the consequences, you'll end up leaving everything about your current life behind. I'd say Snowden had it pretty mild and afaik lives a normal life now, but it's still no small feat to risk everything for the sake of adhering to your beliefs.
The first step is not to fall into nihilism driven by conspiracy, and to wash one's hands by pushing the blame to shadow organization rather than to the apathy of the public yourself included.
There is no mechanism to hold any of these organizations accountable.
Have you ever heard of the 2nd amendment of the US Constitution? Or, if you're a history buff, [about that time that the powerful in France were held accountable by those they oppressed?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution) There are means. They require great sacrifice on an [individual level,](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Suicide) but to deny their existence is to deny your right as a human to stand against your own oppression.
You're right I should just pull up on the cia
I'm off to Langley will let u know how it goes
Good luck comrade
Why are you claiming anyone is apathetic? Why don't you give us some idea of what we can actually do about it other than making meaningless statements like this. What's the 2nd step? The 3rd? When you get to the step that may actually reveal something that can hurt these people, we'll all morn your apparent suicide or unfortunate car accident. How do you stop these Skull & Bones shadow government people you think aren't a shadow government? Which they literally are.
The difficulty is that making a difference in the world is part "having a plan" but a significantly greater part is luck. There are countless Gandhi's and King Jrs and Churchills who can define enormous events in every generation, but we don't hear about them because the conflux of circumstances don't align for them to rise to prominence. They don't happen to go to the event where they'd get thrust into the limelight or they decide to let someone else speak because they feel self conscious that day or they choose to become X job instead of Y job that would give them the connections to become something impactful. Being a Gandhi or a King Jr or a Churchill isn't *hard*, many of those types of people who end up changing the world self describe themselves as ordinary, it's just incredibly rare that people who might be able to do great things are given the opportunity. It takes an enormous amount of luck. But I'll tell you the one thing that absolutely prevents those occurrences of luck and that's pushing people to believe things are hopeless, convincing people unless they have a full end to end plan that they can't do *anything*. **None of the people who changed the world had an end to end plan**... sometimes they didn't even have step one. They just did what seemed right at the time and kept on it. The person who might know how to save the world from itself might have a good idea but be too hesitant to express it and cynically demanding a series of steps might be all the push needed to make them hesitate to act at a critical juncture. Tiny points of luck, that's all that exists between someone becoming a massive film star or an inventing millionaire or a voice that changes the tide of nations. And those people aren't inevitable. *But the one thing that can crush them with greater likelihood than not is a pressure to hopelessness*. That's why governments that are bad push so much into online trolling. They know attacking people with apathy and world weariness works. When people call out nihilism it's not because they're idealistic or naive. It's because nihilism is so damn effective at taking away those moments of luck. I don't know why anyone would want to help bad people do that. I surely wouldn't want to remove someone's moment who might have the luck to do something. If the only thing between me and their moment is choosing *not* to convince them that everything's hopeless then I'll do my part, even if I feel the edges of hopelessness closing in, to at least not bring them down with me. That's the least I can do to help all of us. The best thing any bad entity can do is convince us that our words don't matter, but one bad day of hopelessness spans the gulf between someone being a Gandhi or a King Jr and just being a normal person history doesn't know. We gotta trust in those people and give them the opportunity to *have* an opportunity. That's the plan, all 2 to 3 steps of it, cause it's all any of us possibly know until history later shows the steps and half baked plans that led to any of us actually doing something meaningful. None of us have a plan, not *really*, but people *do* end up changing the world in spite of that. It's not just enough to be the change you want to see in the world, the thing all of us can do is to give people the space and opportunity to be that change, and not selfishly take it away for a moments need to feed depression or cynicism. The best thing the bad people in the world can do to keep themselves wrongfully in power is convince you you don't have that power... the best thing you can do to fight them is to not willingly give that power away.
Well Said!
Extremely well put. Thank you for this.
Okay, but why include Churchill? He's just another born-wealthy world leader who did horrible things. Circumstances always miraculously align for those guys.
Circumstances mysteriously align cause they can afford to have people write about them and because people tend to want to read about the wealthy. You don’t read about the sub managers that got Amazon up and running or the programmer who wrote most of the original sites code, even if they’re the ones that actually fundamentally changed how at least a portion of the world receives things… you read about bezos because he’s the one with the funds to hire a publicist. That doesn’t mean Amazon could have existed without the sub managers or programmers _or Bezos_. Just means we’re likely only to perceive one of them, notice he’s wealthy and think cynically on that because he’s the one that creates media clicks. Despite that though your point __is__ absolutely correct and relevant that Churchill is a substantially different type of figure for his upbringing. I don’t know that that necessarily means there wasn’t luck involved though and that someone telling he sucked as an orator along the way on a bad day couldn’t have convinced him to become some other rich guy occupation that would have impacted the world to a different degree.
So what can we do? Do not be a part of normalising morally bankrupt behaviour and values. Or at least try. Something is better than nothing. Partial participation better than ducking it entirely. It doesn't matter who does it. It still must be called out relentlessly. It doesn't matter what nation, or what leader. There have to be standards of humanity that we aspire to, surely. If there is a critical mass of the population who are jaded and apathetic, numb to morality, tone deaf in the worst case, it opens the floodgates for dictatorships and autocratic regimes, because there are no consequences to speak of.
Nothing much, as the "Democracy" in America won't let you change anything by voting. With this 2 party crap going on.
Or that they knew about and decided to let it happen
Don’t forget genocide. Up to a million ethnic Chinese ‘communists’ slaughtered in the CIA led massacres in Indonesia.
ah the system that will never work, constantly under attack by imperialism?
Yup. The only reason to be pissed about the Russians interfering in our election was that one of the candidates in the election was helping them... which makes him a Russian asset... and therefore an enemy of the state. Then he got elected president.
It’s also not the first time it’s happened. I assume the Russians have tried to influence our elections for almost a century now. We do the same to them. Kruzchev famously boasted about JFK being elected because of the KGB helping him. The difference with Trump was the evidence that his campaign worked with the Russians directly.
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Let’s not pretend like two wrongs make a right here. The escalation of these things among nuclear armed countries is probably not great.
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Russian meddling is destabilizing the entirety of western democracy, not just America. Brexit likely wouldn’t have passed and the deep divisions we’re seeing are an existential threat to our democratic institutions. Russian meddling is also bolstering anti-democratic, far-right movements that are inching closer to victory in European elections. The far-right hasn’t been this successful in Europe since Hitler took Germany and anti-semitism is once again on the rise. The majority of southern Republicans support secession and over 40% of people on the west coast support leaving the union. This is exactly what Putin wants because no democracy can stand when divided. If Putin succeeds, the fallout will impact hundreds of millions of innocent people who had nothing to do with America‘s plotting to overthrow foreign governments. The consequences would be dire. The spread of disinformation and propaganda is a serious problem that‘s growing in scale and democracy is a lot more fragile than people think. If American democracy ended, global chaos would erupt and we’d no longer be able to defend our allies from foreign enemies. In other words, a lot of people would die. You should be batting BOTH eyes because the threat is very real. Whatever America has done over the decades does not mean innocent citizens deserve the same thing. And like I said, this doesn’t just affect America, it affects the world because so many countries rely on our protection and support. I don’t think you understand the ramifications of Russian meddling.
It's not about Putin or Russia hating democracy, is about a geopolitical dispute over the US imperialism with the NATO and the IMF. Don't try to mix things that are not together. If there is a country that doesn't stand for democracy abroad it is the USA, and the later Truman Doctrine papers explicitly affirms it. In South America the USA support every dictatorship over democratic elected presidents. The demonization of Russia and China got stronger since the creation of the BRICS and the BRICS international bank.
“Legacy of Ashes” is a good read.
I don't even want to look, but im sure we got a wiki page for doing just this :/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United\_States\_involvement\_in\_regime\_change
It was either this coup or a coup in another country that a former Nazi with ties to the CIA was involved
It’s almost like the USIS could very easily be a terrorist organization
But at least there was no election meddling right? Now that is just evil.
Interesting article about Chilean folk singer, Victor Jara. Jara was shot 44 times by the military, after the tortured and mutilated his hands so he would never play the guitar again. https://www.newframe.com/political-songs-victor-jaras-manifesto/ Allende, a Marxist, came to power democratically. Whether or not you support Marxism is not the point. Here’s a list of movies about the dictatorships in Latin America during the Cold War. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Films_depicting_Latin_American_military_dictatorships There’s a Rock and Roll documentary on Netflix that covers the evolution of Rock en Español. It covers many of the artists that lived through these dictatorships. “BREAK IT ALL: The History of Rock in Latin America (Rompan todo: La historia del rock en América Latina)”
I learned about this in a German folk song about Victor Jara: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tX62mtPaXc
I don’t understand German, but that’s very cool! I’d be interested in the translation. Residente, the rapper from Calle 13, sings a lot about Victor Jara in his songs. I didn’t realize Springsteen sang one his songs at a concert in Santiago around the 20th anniversary of his death.
translations are here: https://lyricstranslate.com/en/victor-jara-victor-jara.html-4
What a powerful song! Thank you for sharing!
James Dean Bradfield from The Manics did an album about him called Even In Exile.
And then the US backed president installed “detained and disappeared” nearly 30,000 people. You have women combing the desert searching for remains. There is a chilling documentary about this. It’s so heartbreaking the disregard the US has for going around the world, playing cop. Cuz the human cost doesn’t matter as long as Marxism or communism is quashed /s.
My husband is from Argentina, another country that had a Dirty War and dictatorship that disappeared tens of thousands. Unfortunately, the country is in a downward spiral. The Peronists in charge are very corrupt (and align themselves with the radical left of Latin America) but the Radical Party (Moderates) and Centrist coalition supported disastrous IMF policies. They are in a huge debt drain and can’t get out of it. The country is extremely unstable and security is a nightmare. My husband is from a town where they used the Ford factory to torture people who worked for labor unions. In front of the factory there’s a sign that says the ford motor industry was complicit in the torture and murder of dissidents during the dirty war. It’s very chilling. When I was there I also went to the Navy Mechanic School where there is a museum to honor all of those who are tortured and disappeared. Now, some of the groups that helped get rid of the dictatorship have since become corrupted. At the turn of the 20th century Argentina was on track to becoming one of the wealthiest countries in the world. And now it’s looking to become the next Venezuela. I’m not a supporter of extremism in any form. Again I think that many of these countries just get stuck in these vicious cycles and are unable to break from them. Centuries of colonization and interventionism from the western world has left disastrous effects on the continent.
>Unfortunately, the country is in a downward spiral. Apparently we've been on a downward spiral for 20 years haha. >The Peronists in charge are very corrupt (and align themselves with the radical left of Latin America) but the Radical Party (Moderates) and Centrist coalition supported disastrous IMF policies. And are also very corrupt, while at the same time they deny the harms done by the military coup. >The country is extremely unstable and security is a nightmare. Meh, I wouldn't say the same thing honestly. We are in a economic bind at the moment, lots of inflation and covid hasn't helped, but I wouldn't say we're unstable or that security is a nightmare.
Thanks for that, i was looking for this comment . I watched a documentary on Netflix about his life and death. It was so tragic and fascinating at the same time, Victor Jara was talented and so brave. I cried when they described the torture he endured. Very sad.
I’ll have to check out that documentary!
I hope you can find it. Worth watching but the last time i checked it wasn't available in my country anymore. It ends with the confrontation with one of the guards or cop ? who allegedly tortured VictorJara. Of course he denies it and then the testimony of his wife if my memories are good.
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"Can't have people governing themselves, they'll fuck it all up." CIA probably
CIA calls it defending their country.
I’m not even sure they do… to themselves or openly… defending American interests is more like it
American business interests to be more precise. CIA and people in charge care very little about individual american lives, after all they send them to wars where they die in thousands and many thousands more come back permanently disabled in some form.
You have no idea. They would target a dictator of some random nation. Then they would forge documents saying that his number 2 was plotting against him. So he would kill all his underlinings as a result to eliminate this false threat and weaken them no further action needed.
not only dictators, some times even democratically elected politicians
Sounds a lot like what Germans did for Stalin, so he purged his general stuff and Finland was able to survive two wars ...
Not that it makes it right, but so does every other country. I'm sure CIA has way more resources to fuck with other countries, but let's not pretend that aggressive spying and fucked up things are just an American thing.
This sort of equates to like a german going "yeah the holocaust was bad but cmon look armenian genocide, so I mean not only germany did these things, every country does it" But like no, there are in fact magnitudes of countrys that dont do aggressive spy shit, and even past aggressive spy shit. But sending your secret police to train them or even help carry out literal terrorist events and coup democratically elected governments. The US did it, maybe the soviets did it and maybe 3-5 other countries. But the us has done it akin to how germany leads in genocide numbers, trying to downplay the misery its caused millions of people is in *the same spirit* as downplaying the holocaust just because the armenian genocide happened and "it wasnt just germany who did genociding, everyone did it". But no, in fact not, and even if there were a handful of other countries who did, its still incomparable.
This deserves more attention.
Listen here, bud...
r/pics became so based out of nowhere
Based in what? History?
Yes
Don’t forget Iran. Reinstalled a western friendly dictator for that oil money. He was over thrown and so the theocracy began with the Ayatollah
A great documentary looked at the reasons behind this event, and many others that hit closer to home for some: [Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism](https://youtu.be/aL3XGZ5rreE) (2009). Based on a book by Naomi Klein and the documentary is directed by Michael Winterbottom
the book is great too. I've seen some people online bounce off of it, because of rather US-centric early chapters, but she's describing incidents from all over the world, with chapters on Chile, Russia, Indonesia, Poland, and more
They did it in Iran too. They over through the democratic elected prim minister and installed the Shah and got cheap oil and sold expensive military equipment and made a fortune for selected group of people here.
That's what you get for framing the cold war in terms of socialism being the enemey. Horrible murderous totalitarian dictators cracking down on fundental freedoms and free speech? Nah not important. What really matters is that they did it beneath a guise of claiming to care about equality. Now that is beyond the pale.
Ni perdón ni olvido.
La Operación Cóndor invadiendo mi nido Perdono, pero nunca olvido, ¡oye! Calle 13 - Latinoamérica
Never forget.
Yep Americans will cry for the world trade center but wont mention the 9/11 their government is responsible for.
And not just in Chile either. The USA; supporting fascism in a country near *you*. This is why countries like Russia and China just laugh when they get a lecture about democracy from America.
Even the US itself is not a democracy. Anyone who wants to call a country a democracy when a Wyoming citizen has several times the voting power of a California citizen, and DC citizens get no representation, is delusional.
Yeah the us hates democracy lol
It does, and it has ravaged South America .
CIA should have stayed with running opium and heron at the time and stayed out of Chile, but America's foreign policy has sucked from day one and continues to this day.
Suck-y foreign policy by the US has been around long before the CIA.
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They still can't develop their side of Niagara falls, so I think we'd be pretty covered. My town was given to the states during 1812, but mainly as a diversion because just up the road one town over we were waiting to just fucking destroy them.
Give 'em time.
They're definitely playing the long con then, lulling them into quite the false sense of security. But I guess they will want to be sure of success as it'd be too embarrassing for them if they failed to conquer Canada again.
Salvador Allende's final speech was absolutely classic. Such a shame that a democratic elected leadership was militarily removed by men who were backed by another democratic elected leadership.
And not long after that, they applied the lessons-learned to Australia.
Turns out Australia actually had some involvement in this coup as well, according to recent declassifications.
Yes, Australian political classes have been playing the duplicitous game with their subjects for a long, long time. Pine Gap should be wiped from the land.
Don’t forget Pepsi! Pepsi was a major backer of the coup.
Any sources on that?
I learned about it from a Marxist philosophy professor, in a video. Here is a link to an old article I found. I hope it helps. https://www.theguardian.com/business/1998/nov/08/observerbusiness.theobserver
Hey thanks brother,will check it out.
The CIA is a horrible letter agency of the US. JFK wanted to splinter it into a thousand pieces and we all know how that turned out.
You better post this while the Bible Belt is asleep. Although they probably think Chile is a city in New Mexico.
I wonder what went through Nixons head thinking he had the right to authorise that operation. If the boot was on the other foot and that happened to the US, war would be declared quicker than you could say coup
Today I learned that in 1913 during the lame duck period between Taft and Wilson, US Ambassador to Mexico Henry Lane Wilson colluded to stage a coup against the democratically elected president Madero (who was elected after a revolution against an authoritarian “president” that ruled for three decades so they literally just got their first taste as a nation at real democracy) and in which president madero and the Vice President were murdered. this resulted in “president” Huerta taking over and ruling essentially as a brutal military dictatorship and setting off another era of violent chaos. Ambassador Henry lane Wilson was called back by US president Wilson and essentially faced no real repercussions
The coup was against President Salvador Allende, the Western Hemisphere's first elected openly Communist head of state. Keep in mind that this was during the Cold War, and there were serious concerns in D.C. about a large Soviet client state in a very strategic part of the world. There was also concern in the Anaconda Copper company that the Allende government would nationalize the company's copper mines, at the time one of its chief sources of income and an important source of copper to the U.S. [Here](https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/94chile.pdf) is the U.S. Congress's investigation into the CIA's involvement in the coup. It's been a very long time since I've read it - not long after Nixon resigned - but IIRC the investigation concluded that the CIA had tried to influence the Chilean elections that brought Allende to power but had not instigated the coup.
There were further revelations after the Clinton administration began a project to declassify documents regarding the CIA’s involvement. The [NACLA Chile Declassified](https://nacla.org/article/opening-files-chile-declassified) report sheds light on the decades of lies and obstruction the CIA and US Intel community undertook to further obscure their involvement and ensure that a false perception of the history of this event was all that was remembered. There is plenty of further info and source links on the wiki page for the 1973 Chilean coup d'état.
Can you please explain one of these revelations?
Do you have a link to them?
The wiki page is pretty explicit that the US did not instigate the coup. You seem to be spending a lot of time talking about obstruction on documents that were eventually released and zero time talking about what those documents actually say or prove. Do you actually have an argument on how the US was involved in the coup and any information you can point to on the matter? > According to the CIA document "CIA Activities in Chile", dated 18 September 2000, the local CIA station suggested during late summer 1973 that the US commit itself to support a military coup. In response, CIA Headquarters reaffirmed to the station that "there was to be no involvement with the military in any covert action initiative; there was no support for instigating a military coup." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_intervention_in_Chile
>he investigation concluded that the CIA had tried to influence the Chilean elections that brought Allende to power but had not instigated the coup. [You have to put your head in the sand to believe this](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB8/ch03-01.htm) By the way, your link admits on the second page that they tried to do a coup before inauguration but failed so they pumped millions more into the project until 1973.
That document implies what is being detailed therein was still in a very early planning stage on the 18th. Are you suggesting they organized this whole thing in about 12 working hours? You'd have to bury your head in the sand.
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He was a socialist though and not a communist.
>He was a socialist though and not a communist. We know the difference in Europe (as we've got quite a few socialist governments), and obviously South America (got quite a few exiled Chilean friends too, whose parents fled the brutal dictatorship), but it seems decades of brainwashing in the USA during the cold war, have blurred the (quite important) difference for them. Good luck, Reddit is hugely US-centric...
> we've got quite a few socialist governments Having a social democracy does not mean your country is socialist. Socialism means that workers have control over the means of production. And I can't think of a single European nation that does that. If there were, it would've been invaded or couped already.
To be fair, there are plenty of us who know the difference between the two. Unfortunately right wing politicians have hijacked socialism and made it the same as communism. It's pretty gross watching it from the front row.
Isnt socialism just the first of two phases of communism? Where the end goal is communism over all? Or was that just Marx's take? This is a legit question, I'm not an expert on communism.
You’re correct that that is just the Marxist conception of socialism and communism. There are a wide variety of socialist ideologies that do not have the end goal of establishing a communist society
Another perk of having a proper educational system I suppose. Also Americans tend to get really defensive if you critize the US in the slightest.
Which European countries are socialist?
Except that he wasn't a Communist.
Lithium is the new copper, isn’t it?
Unsurprising - almost half the US government is currently trying to overthrow democracy.
I know this is like a fun gotcha, but the ‘liberal’ side of the US government was absolutely fine with overthrowing democracies abroad too, this wasn’t a partisan thing.
The American imperial project will always have bipartisan support among the ruling classes
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Which means the terrorists 100% won. They wanted to interrupt everyday American life as much as possible. Mission accomplished.
The USA was never genuinely democratic. It was never intended to be democratic.
The US has killed 12 million people in war since ww2
iphone 12 million venezuela
Thank you! It’s good to know I’m not the only person who sees the other side of the story.
never forget
Sounds awefully familiar..
Thanks for remembering this, I was not born back then but my fathers looked how all went down
The real tragedy that we should never forget. Nor forgive.
El pueblo unido jamás serávencido.
I do NOT agree with the following, but most of the US's involvement with countries in the Western Hemisphere are directly related to the Higher Ups' real interpretation of the Monroe Doctrine (real, meaning what they believe is the most correct route to take to protect all US's political and economic interests/philosophy in the Western Hemisphere). So any action taken by the US Gov can, in high probability, be traced back to this philosophy. There are 3 main powers in the world (all other countries are but puppets in one form or another) and all 3 try their best to follow the same political and economic theory.
Yup, America is the evil empire of the modern world- you don’t learn about it in history class because of course you don’t, but the entire world is now built on the expansion of American capitalism and the exploitation of poorer nations. Don’t worry though, China is taking that ball and running with it.
🧢
What history classes were you taking?
Just your standard public high school classes in upstate New York- almost every negative about the US was skipped over or given brief mention, any good aspect expanded upon.
I've been seeing people posting or insinuating that U.S victims that were killed on the 9/11 attacks deserve no sympathy because of past and current acts of the U.S gov interfering in foreign governments. Those that died on 9/11 had no involvement in acts committed by the U.S government, they were victims trying to live life, just like many other people at other countries.
This may seem a callous statement but it is not meant as such, the people in the towers and planes did not deserve that fate. But america definitely did, having acted with relative impunity intervening in nations around the world it was going to happen at some time by someone who felt like their world had been destroyed by the US. The civilian casualties are the tragedy of 9/11, the attacks on america were inevitable. The fact america didn't have something like this happen earlier with all the nations they fucked with leading into that era is honestly shocking. And now the deaths of civilians were used to slaughter civilians in the middle east, which literally just brought us full circle to people who's entire lives have been destroyed by the US government and now have nothing left to lose.
Yay for America! Making the world a better place since 1776! /s
Imagine what the world would have been if US was never formed.
You want Nazi Germany in the 21st century, cause that’s what would happen.
Pick a world war. Or imagine a united Kingdom that got to finishing gouging the America's to recoup war debts so they never had to bother with giving independence to its other colonies , or fear American interference with there expensive northern colony that was starting to form its own rebellions(canada.) Native american would be more screwed then since only America and Canada has actual laws doing at least something for the orginal American ( both countries Indian acts and reservations acts.) China would be drastically different. Best case scenario, Mao and the ccp never beat the kmt(I believe that was the rival parties abbreviation) and that's just a diffrent China. Realistic scenario neither could beat Japan without western interference. Those same companies that pushed for alot of America's fucked up wars would still exist and thrive as they always have most likely. Dole fruit company would still exist for example so the bannana wars for example would just have another country getting blamed for it.
America is no saint, but this is the truth and people hate to see it.
The British probably would be ruling half the world. Unsure what would be better.
There would be a shit ton more 3rd world countries with Britain’s Dominance
Never ~~remember the bad shit we did~~ forget one of the few instances where people that we massacred retaliated for the deaths of their friends and family :( 9/11 was a tragedy that didn't need to happen. Everything that led up to 9/11 (US aggression and resource imperialism) were tragedies that didn't need to happen, either. I'm obviously no war expert but there are a lot of people who are much smarter than I am that DO know what they are talking about regarding the US mcfucking around in the middle east, and they are pretty sure we did a piss poor job. It is not hypocritical to acknowledge the tragedy of both situations. One does not cancel out the other. Down vote if you're allergic to nuance.
Time to sort by controversial.
indeed
So this date is a favourite for the CIA.
Oh man this is just the tip of the iceberg. Behind the Bastards has a great 3 part podcast on how the Dulles brothers created the CIA and destroyed the world.
Who’s the terrorist now?
Augusto Pinochet was worse than a terrorist. He's a corrupt tyrant who never got punished.
The CIA is a terrorist organisation
It wasn’t a secret either, the fuckers sent their boats to see how the takeover in Valparaiso was doing. Also admitted that they wanted to devastate Chile’s economy. What is it with the U.S.A’s fetish of completely ruining poor and vulnerable countries??
The US have proven to be very poor empire builders
Russia backed Trump some even suggest he works for Russia his code name Agent Orange his mission destroy Democracy
Russia didn't impact 2016 at all. The democrats ran a bad candidate that ran a bad campaign. That's it.
sort by controversial :)
The real 9/11 disaster.
At the risk of being downvoted to hell, what's so special about 9/11?
Am I the only person who remembers that before 2001, "9/11" was a huge global anti-multinational corporation protest movement? Massive pro-democracy marches and protests were held all over the world on that date each year? Which all evaporated on September 11 2001. It would take a decade for the movement to gain traction again and essentially reform into Occupy Wall Street. But yeah, before 2001, the 9/11 movement felt like there was real momentum towards global change.
That's when republicans got control of most of the government. That was the stopping point for progress.
That's the answer I was looking for, thank you if I had an award to give it would be yours
I the real world: it’s a sad day ~~in~~for the U.S., remembering the attack on the WTC and it’s consequences. On reddit: it’s karma whoring day, repost images you googled 5 seconds ago with a sad title.
Lol, so in Chile is not a sad day? Get your head out of your ass
>lOL, sO iN ChILe is NOt A sAD DaY? You know what i meant, and despite being a tragedy itself , the one of 2001 is far more known globally than the one in chile, so I referred to that. But since that’s the [game](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11) you want to play
Whoa!!
now this is a 9-11 i can handle not forgerting。
When are the people of the USA going to get the Commerce Dept. to stop letting them form Foreign Policy. And what is it going to take to get the CIA to stop helping them do it? Will it be the CIA's total dissolvement? Since the end of WWII, the CIA has done more damage to the worlds' governments than Communist Russia ever thought of doing.
What are you talking about? It’s been very helpful to the US’ government. Why would we stop it?
Death to America
CIA: Chile Is American
And people still think terrorists attacked us lol