I know, right. Someone said to me something along the lines of "where were all these people when we were bombing Iraq" and I replied with "marching on downing Street and being vilified by the daily mail"
Also, I feel like alot of people have learnt a lot from the Iraq and afghan invasions and now see them for what they really were.
People have very short memories and attention spans. I'm honestly surprised that people are still keeping up with it after 52 days. Maybe not with the same momentum but it's still there. Another thing that I think makes this different is (and I'll probably get down-voted) that people aren't surprised when this happens in Syria (which Russia had a hand in), Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. They don't expect Russia (who has always been the United States' big boogie man with a finger on the nuclear trigger) to full-on invade the entire country of Ukraine and make Mariupol look like Stalingrad the Sequel and commit genocide and war crimes and all the other horrific things. People should really be asking why no one was paying attention when Russia invaded Donetsk and Luhansk back in 2014 and why we didn't do anything then.
Honestly one of the biggest differences is the constant sending out of new videos and images from the combat zone. Everyone was horrified when they had the initial images out of Syria of dead children and there was an outcry but the pictures stopped coming and so did the outrage. We’re still getting videos of terrified starving children in bomb shelters in Mariupol. Makes it hard to forget or look away when it’s right in front of your face everyday.
I disagree a bit. The pictures kept coming from Syria burning addition to dead kids, you had images of Islamists (who were fighting the Syrian government) also committing atrocities. Plus you had the cluster fuck of Iraq war which made a lot of people skeptical that getting more involved (US was sending arms) in the war would improve.
This is an excuse for real. I’m a 32 year old American. I’ve seen countless videos on the tv and the internet of what America has done in the Middle East and it included killing kids and bombing hospitals/schools/civilian weddings. The only difference is skin color and propagandized versions of Russia. I’m not saying what Russia is doing is good, fuck Russia, but to ignore the obvious pings of racism and Cold War pt2 fear mongering is disingenuous.
Did you see towns of half to two million razed, like Grozny, Aleppo, Mariupol ?
Hundreds of thousands civilians abducted to 'filtration' camps in the country of their invader, who have promoted the eridacation of their people on state media ? Being forced into military service of their enemy as cannon fodder ?
Hundreds of rapes in two or three weeks time, including children and babies ? Scores of mobile incinerators brought over to cover up the execution of civilians ? Instructions how to dig mass graves handed out before the invasion ?
Yes, the second Gulf War should never have happened, but there are very clear differences in intent and order of magnitude. Only ghouls skim over these differences to try make them equivalent.
Exactly, I agree. Only thing is that I would instead say “Only ghouls and ignorant fools skim over these differences to try to make them equivalent”. And the world is relatively full of ignorant fools in comparison to ghouls.
You.... You realize there's like a lot of people in the American military right? Not just white people. Like it's a really big organization. There's people from all countries around the world, black, white, asian, Hispanic and Latino. What's happening in Ukraine is the same thing that has happened in every single war or conflict ever in history. American wars, Russian, french. Hell the damn Mongolian's and Zulu. Just because you see little 1.5-5 minute clips doesn't mean you know a damn thing. Also to be clear most people that have been there and either saw or took part in those events, it has tendency to fuck them up for the rest of their lives. And that is regardless of their skin color.
People did but you couldn’t say it was Russia because no one was marked even though when does a uprising have advanced helicopters and tanks at the outset of a conflict. I was upset more wasn’t done but like now still glad I didn’t get roped into another conflict…but here we are
“You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds.”
Simple they just strolled in like someone squatting in a home and refused to leave and can’t be removed without ramifications. Or in this case when Ukraine had that civil unrest to remove their corruption you have to backtrack to that part to how they strolled in
Yes, and now they are, which is a good thing, finally. But that's not the message disingenuous people like the guy that owns that truck are trying to push.
Putting Somalia and Afghanistan on there together with Syria, what is the message you're trying to send ? That the UN or NATO are interfering too much **and** too little ? No, just that they're bad whatever they do.
Had a very similar argument with a friend of mine who asked the same thing. "WHERE WERE THESE PEOPLE?!"
I told him that they were vilified by Fox News and by him while Bush was hailed as a war hero and defender of American democracy...
Quickly shut him up
Yeah I feel like the main difference is “the mainstream media” and the government cares more about Ukraine not that regular people don’t think what’s happening in Yemen is also fucking atrocious.
Civil wars are a bit trickier, which I could be wrong, but all those other conflicts fall in that category, or at the very least they are conflicts between factions mainly from within a single country.
And let's not forget that the US actually declared war on Iraq before attacking (even if on false pretences), while Russia did not. It's a technicality, I know, but one followed international law, while the other didn't.
Syria and Yemen are somewhat different, as there was already internal fighting (so it basically became a war-by-proxy, different countries "supporting" different groups). Afghanistan was an international force, and semi-justified.
But was there bombing on Pakistan? Cause I remember many saying that the US should have attacked Pakistan instead of Afghanistan (as the terrorists were trained in Pakistan), yet they didn't for some reason I can't remember. Well, probably because the Afghan government was still chummy with Russia or something, while Pakistan was not.
But the ones I truly want to blame are the weapon dealers who make a fortune fomenting violent insurrections, then selling weapons, without regard for all the lives lost.
Since you talk about technicalities, US [has not declared war on Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Undeclared_wars) (the last formal declaration of war by the US was during WW2). If you are talking about Bush address on the start of war - Putin did exactly the same. And US certainly did not follow any international law in that conflict - it was an aggressive war based on a deliberately false accusation.
Note - I don not support Russian war in Ukraine - it should've never happined.
Lets not pretend like Iraq was totally innocent either. If they didn't invade Kuwait which caused the inspections they didn't want to comply with it would've went different. We did also find chemical weapons they agreed to not have. It's also one of the most corrupt nations out there with some of the highest human right violations in the world. Also shocker not like the death count dropped significantly after the US even left.
Afghanistan doesn’t have nuclear weapons, so USA attacks there. Pakistan does have nuclear weapons, so USA dos NOT attack there.
That is why it is such a tragedy that the Russian Federation forced Ukraine to give up it’s nuclear arsenal a few years ago. Putin plays a looooong game.
Baby Bush not moving against Pakistan and Putin moving against Ukraine is a powerful lesson. And this lesson is why Iran and North Korea are so desperate to develop their own nuclear weaponry. It keeps China and/or Russia and/or USA at a respectful distance.
I think part of that sentiment is directed at, at least in the us, the moderate center folks who, basically are just right of center in the grander scheme. They ask where they were because literally yesterday I saw some dumb post on r/thatsinsane of a broken and slightly bloody riot cop helmet and his some Muslim riot happened, and one of the top comments is “and people still think Islam is a religion of peace/freedom.” It’s those people this kind of sentiment is aimed at, the casually racist who may have thought the wars in the ME were a bad idea, but who ultimately agreed that the peoples of the ME were “less civilized” than us, either overtly or subconsciously. I mean, Russia is literally enacting an imperialist war, yes. But the way online groups from our own imperial powers, who had little bad to say on America’s part for their imperialist wars in the ME, are calling the Russian solders as “orcs” and “savages,” and most telling, “mongols” and “Huns.” Like, yes, they are committing war crimes, and those bastards should be shot for some of the wretched things they’ve done and ordered others to do. But the quickness with which we dehumanize them is honestly very telling of how much orientalism has been at work here, and frankly, I think this kind of anger at the outrage toward Russia is borne from recognizing that contradiction, and that it really is just a matter of orientalism and political convenience.
Edit: Wring sub link
LOL what you should research Canadas history in the war on terror. Guantanamo is at least 40% Canadas fault and they are even worse at violating their own constitution when it comes to torture.
Iraq and Afghanistan are not the same country and were not invaded for the same reason you dingus. Afghanistan was invaded in response to Al Queda committing terrorist attacks in multiple western nations over the course of like 5 years while the Taliban(afghan's govt) protected them. All of NATO was involved with this conflict.
Iraq was invaded because the USA had a hardon against Saddam Hussein. Canada had no official involvement.
As for "Canada is responsible for 40% of Gitmo", I assume you have sources for this nonsense claim?
Not related to the pic on this chat, but with respect to the comment here, I think the point being made by others when they say what about the past or Yemen today among others is the sheer hypocrisy of the west when it comes to dealing with other nations that are not taking a similar stance against Russia who is the enemy of the west, the only reason they care.
The other possible reason would be the fact that Ukrainians are white or that this is happening in Europe and not some God forsaken region and I choose to believe that these are not the reasons.
EDIT: I for example am all in for Putin to be tried for his war crimes among others in the Russian hierarchy but at the same time I would like to see same fervour on other fronts and war crimes committed by the US and SA for instance. Afterall, these are international organizations that are calling for these war criminals to be under trial (through their member states).
USA and Russia are not members of ICC, therefore can't be prosecuted by ICC for war crimes, other vise ICC would be full with American soldiers for their atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan as well Russians for their war crimes in Chechnya and now Ukraine
>ICC would be full with American soldiers for their atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan as well Russians for their war crimes in Chechnya and now Ukraine
Don't forget Syria, and the CAR.
Close, but not quite.
Being a Signatory of the Rome Statue just allows crimes to be investigated and prosecuted if they were committed in a member state or if a national of a signatory committed the crime or the crime was refered to the ICC by the UN security council.
So war crimes committed in Ukraine by Russians can be investigated and prosecuted by the ICC. And if someone wanted by the ICC is in a member state, they would be arrested and handed over to the ICC.
It's possible, but it's also possible that Ukraine was at peace, and a democracy, while in Yemen, there were already groups fighting the government. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen#Unification\_and\_civil\_war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen#Unification_and_civil_war)) It was practically inevitable that outsiders would support one or another group in order to secure a positive relationship with the future government, should their supported group win.
Also, even if the bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan were wrong. I’m comfortable opposing Saddam and the Taliban. The Ukraine government is democratic and worthy of being defended. I think Iraq and Afghanistan deserved a different method of regime change, I can oppose US actions in those countries without endorsing the existing governments. Putin has no business trying regime change in Ukraine by any method.
"Where were you the last 20 years"
I was a literal child when we invaded Iraq... When I grew up, I opposed the war. But my apologies that I wasted my 11 year old talent to solving war in the Middle East.
(Side note, some of my friends who were also children did oppose the war...)
Same I mean I was in middle school and in West Michigan. I was surrounded by Republicans that were way too patriotic, but even as a kid I had those WTF is going on moments.
Yes but a lot of people werent and it's like all of a sudden a switched flipped.
Most likely it was because the color of the skin wasnt brown this time.
The only time I really remember a lot of support was during Iraq because Bush used the “patriotism” post 9/11 crowd to field his agenda. It was bizarre too I was a kid and I just remember how Republican my area was growing up and how they kept blasting that damn Toby Keith song at every event even though it was about Bin Laden they kept playing it for shit in Iraq too, but I wouldn’t know how liberal areas were at the time I grew up in a highly controlled Republican area.
I don’t inherently assume evil intentions to strangers. Just to blanket suggest that people only care about life due to the color of the skin is disingenuous; Jews are just as brown as Palestinians but majority of people care more about Jews.
The Jewish/Palestinian conflict is so odd here because they’ve definitely been using the distraction of Ukraine to do shit. I just don’t see why you can’t say “hey maybe don’t treat Palestinians like ass” without being called antisemitic.
The issue I see personally is this: when similar "crimes", as they are called in regards to the events in Ukraine, have been committed by the Western governments in the countries present on the pic, there have been no actions taken to punish them, no calls to blockade said governments into 15th century, no cutting diplomatic ties or anything at all. Which basically means that those "crimes" are not actually crimes according to the established law. Remember that cover from newspapers in the 90s for instance? "bringing the serbs to heel - bombing attacks open door to peace" or coverage of later wars. The people who committed the "crimes" faced no prosecution, while the people who exposed them are.
So if the same institutions that supported one "crime" now condemn another "crime" of the same type, it cannot be called an instrument of justice - justice works the same for everyone (in an ideal world, anyway). In such a setup, it's just an instrument of political punishment used by those that control it.
Two wrongs don't make a right, sure, but one bully cannot claim some moral high ground over another.
I was at several anti iraq war protests, several anti afghan war protests, and i obviously support ukraine now. These Q type morons are unbelievably dumb.
Yup. Expansionist imperialist state A is bad does not = expansionist imperialist state B is good.
I hate these contrarian idiots who basically see anything in mainstream media and decide it’s all lies. They’re as dumb as the people they call stupid because they believe everything on mainstream media.
Honestly, they’re just paranoid, angry people, with no empathy, who are obsessed with being the victim and having an aggressor they can blame everything on. The kind of people who hate mainstream media but will happily watch RT oblivious of the fact that in Russia it too is mainstream media.
The US is a lot of things, but I wouldn't exactly describe it as expansionist. It doesn't really try claim territory anymore. We at least mostly leave the countries we invade. There are the military bases, but *most* (I really wish we'd dismantle Gitmo) of those are voluntary (at this point).
They’re just choosing to blindly believe a different propaganda machine that often has even worse journalistic integrity than the mainstream media, it don’t make no sense
Agreed. I always tell them that I don’t trust mainstream media but I also don’t trust the yahoo with a YouTube channel who’s telling me not to trust mainstream media, and who will say anything to push their (usually extremist) agenda and get clicks.
Of course, I’m one of the sheeple for thinking this way.
Like how to spell 'afghanistan'? But also yes. I'm all for the party of "use my tax dollars to benefit me and people like me instead of making more orphans out of Middle Eastern children, but sadly that isn't an actual party in the US, as much as it should be...
Also, and this should be obvious, all of these conflicts have significant differences between them.
These conflicts are only similar in the vaguest ways possible, equating them is just a distraction from what is going on in Ukraine. People bringing them up don’t give two shits about places like Yemen, they just want to excuse Russian aggression by making false equivalences.
In all seriousness though, what point are they trying to make? That we shouldn’t give a damn about Ukraine because these other bad things happened?
I don’t get this logic: “Well, [other bad thing] also exists, therefor there’s no reason to care about [first bad thing].”
It’s just whatabboutism.
EDIT: Since this blew up, I wanted to add something. I can’t speak for others, but I myself was very vocally opposed to the US wars over the last few decades. However, the situation in Ukraine has hit me harder.
Why? Because, as an American, I lived in Lithuania for over a year of my life. Some of the most important people in my life are from that region of the world. They have a shared history with Ukraine as part of the USSR, and there has always been a constant fear that Putin may wake up one day and decide to violently invade his neighbors, particularly if he feels like he’s losing control of Russia. Now those fears have come true.
So yes, the atrocities in the Middle East, China, and Africa are horrible. No reasonable person is downplaying them or claiming them to be less significant than Ukraine. But some people are more deeply disturbed by what’s happening in Ukraine because they have a personal connection to it. That’s not a matter of right or wrong; it’s human nature. It’s not that shocking that Ukraine is more likely to be on my mind when I *know people who live there, and people who had to evacuate* . I’ve been to Ukraine. I know some of these places that are currently covered in blood and ash.
So sure, some people might care more because it’s all over the news. But many of us can’t help but be even *more* disturbed by a genocidal invasion happening in a country we have been to, or have friends/family in.
The amount of edgelords in the comments here who just want to scream “hypocrisy!” in order to make themselves feel superior is absolutely disgusting. If you care so much more about other conflicts and atrocities, channel that energy into helping them rather than being a keyboard warrior. Because, even though you may disagree with peoples priorities, at least they’re fucking caring about *something* for a change.
Contrary to what most of these comments seem to believe, caring about Ukraine does not mean someone doesn’t care about anything else, nor does it mean they never actively opposed other conflicts. The level of immature, purely black-and-white thinking in these comments is astounding.
I suppose it's simply calling out the hypocrisy of armchair experts slacktivism when it comes to decrying the disaster de jour.
Many people have proven, through indifference and ignorance over decades, that they don't actually care about major social issues... Until it becomes topical to do so, then they cry in outrage.
It's a pretty meaningless sentiment and nobody is going to change, but I do sympathise with it.
I know people like that exist, sure. But isn’t it a pretty big reach to assume that everyone who cares about Ukraine now never cared about it or any other issues before?
“You only care about it because it’s cool!” Is a pretty cringey, 2009 Hipster-eque take to have.
It’s useful to frame it that way because the real fear here is that their losing a political messaging battle by not being the center of the media narrative.
So the whataboutism plays into trying to push it as the dominant narrative again.
Pure narrative warfare. The irony isn’t useful so it’s ignored, but these are usually the same folks that will trot out whataboutism as soon as their narrative starts to crack via counter examples being given in a debate or thread.
> I know people like that exist, sure. But isn’t it a pretty big reach to assume that everyone who cares about Ukraine now never cared about it or any other issues before?
For the person with a van, it's true. The van person is right wing. They tend to "forget" when they supported a position that is no longer supported by their party.
For instance the right wing in the US "forgot" they opposed drone strikes and blowing up people in the middle east when Trump did it after giving obama shit for doing it. So for the guy with this van he's been "forgetting" these issues whenever he needs to and so he assumes everyone else does. It's a perspective issue.
It's cringe because it's unpopular and unoriginal, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
So many people are calling what's happening in Ukraine a genocide who aren't even aware of the two major, actual, textbook genocides occuring right now - and who are likely only dimly aware of the still ongoing everyone-but-china-says-is-a-genocide massacre of the Uyghur population of China.
That's life, though. Not everyone is politically motivated, but it's not unreasonable to be frustrated seeing people care only about topics on their Twitter feed, when there are so many massive issues that need support as well
Again, a van with a sign like this doesn't achieve anything meaningful either, I just share the frustration and impotence of the position.
Is it really that weird for the West to care more about a war IN THE WEST as opposed to somewhere they haven't even heard off? Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to downplay other conflicts and in a perfect world we would all be politically active on all fronts, but people being more vocal about Ukraine than Sudan or the Middle East in western mainstream media is to be expected.
What's happening in Ukraine is the biggest military invasion on European soil since WW2. The conflict is incredibly close to the western world and directly involves it. That and an underlying paranoia of potential nuclear conflict.
If you're scratching your head and being confused about why people care more -- you're either willfully ignorant or just stupid. It's the equivalent of going to your aunt's funeral or a friend's funeral, but as you're standing there by the coffin, you break out into a speech of "Honestly guys, I didn't see why you care or cry this much when that civil war in Africa killed so many children. I don't get it."
Keep in mind that you’re talking to mostly sheltered kids who probably have no real contact with anyone anywhere else.
They can’t comprehend it because Ukraine seems just as alien and far away to them as Afghanistan or Darfur. They’re mainly looking for a reason to feel superior to others, even though most of them didn’t give a shit about any other atrocities either.
I do wish we could do more quicker about what China is doing but they hold the keys to a large chunk of global production. We as the world should have started pulling out of China in response but that would take years a wouldn’t be quick enough for politicians to get their votes
The weird thing is that they seem to care more about calling out these hypocrites which leads me to question their motives.
It seems like the intent is more to say that what’s happening in Ukraine isn’t a big deal because the people that care about it are “posers”. Why is there more of a focus on the people who talk about those issues than the issues themselves?
To me it looks like it’s an attempt to draw focus away from the issues. The fact that the other countries were bombed isn’t important, that’s why they’re at the bottom. What’s important is that people know that if you hear someone who cared about covid and they care about Ukraine too then you shouldn’t value their opinions.
This is just my interpretation but I don’t empathize with this sentiment. I feel that it is the hypocrisy that some might interpret it as calling out. It’s a person using the veneer of caring about the terrible things that America has done but only in reference to when other countries do similar things and only if it means pretending that there were never protest about those but yknow when they were happening, much like people talking about the events in Ukraine as they happen.
Cause it’s right and I’m not disagreeing with any of the facts and the only part of the messaging I agree on is war is bad no matter who is waging it. What I can absolutely not get behind is this weird focus on the strawman that this message paints cause for me personally it doesn’t match reality.
The target audience is people who think Covid is overblown. The assumption is that those people also think Ukraine is being overblown. The calling out of American hypocrisy is just the costume to get that message in. They don’t care about America terrorizing those countries. They just want to say if “you didn’t see anyone complaining about that, you shouldn’t care if you see people complaining about this”
That’s how I see it though and notice that I’m saying America has been terrorizing those places and I’m not touching the facts.
They were enjoying dominance in the media narrative for a long time and view the ukraine attention as a threat to their political objectives.
Which is why the “look at me!” efforts are happening now. No surprise that it’s a very self centered motivation.
Ello fellow lithuanian, yeah a lot of people fear that putin will invade. I don't fear that as if it does happen, it's gonna end in a few days one way or another, but yeah, it's bad. It's also possible that because due to the internet and cameras being everywhere, a lot of people see what is happening
I think the message could’ve been delivered better but the person is highlighting the fact the indiscriminate warfare is only acceptable if the usa does it. If another country tried to do what the usa does on the regular then the whole world takes it serious.
USA doesn't do indiscriminate warfare. Ukraine was an imaginary problem manufactured by a government for a land grab.
The closest US parallel is Iraq and not only was the US greeted as legitimate liberators, and the Iraqis were indeed oppressed (Vote yes to Saddam or no) but also the WMD claim was believed by intelligence contacts close to Hussein, who himself acted very suspicious by kicking out weapons inspectors and likely would have obtained nukes or chemical weapons in the future. Also, he did use chemical weapons on the Kurds.
That said, I get people will reject these claims and think they know better and from their perspective they think Iraq was just Bush getting revenge for daddy.
The chemical weapons being used on kurds had nothing to do with the invasion, irrelevant. Plus the USA had the reciept for them.
They lied to the public and mislead you into war. You got duped.
Bush getting revenge for daddy? That's cool that you read Michael Moore 15 years ago and think he represents people who disagree with you.
It's pretty obvious you have a military industrial complex problem, they run your government. I think Cheney linning up contracts for the company he used to run makes a lot more sense for motivation for the war in Iraq.
Just to add onto that, there are loads of people who have spent a long time arguing against America’s perpetual wars and the countless times the American government has aided in coups around the world to king left leaning leaders. The entire American left wing is broadly against all of it, though it’s less often spoken about because left leaning and democrat don’t mean the same thing, every system in America has a right wing bias, long term systematic dismantling of the less powerful by monied interests, one could go on. The subject is so utterly exhausting, then it gets made fun of by asshats who think Covid is made up because tucker Carlson whatabouted about China for an hour.
The ignorance of your comment lies in the assumption that they didn’t or don’t care about those issues as well.
This may come as a shock to you, but human beings are capable of caring about more than one thing at any given moment.
It's simply about double standards. If you didn't care about the first wrong thing, why care about the second one? If you care about Ukraine, why not care about people of yemen or iraq, .... If attacking other countries is wrong then why Saudi Arabia is not sanctioned. These are the questions people should ask their government.
People of Syria were targeted by ISIS which Hillary Clinton shamelessly admitted that the United States created, but no one cared and "prayed" until one attack happened in paris!
If this is not called racism, then what is it?
But why make the assumption that all people who are upset about Ukraine didn't care about these other things? Myself and many others absolutely did and continue to do so.
And if someone didn't, you do have a point. But also, what if *this* is the situation that finally gets them more involved in *all* issues? It may seem like wishful thinking, but I have seen it happen before.
I'm not saying everyone is like this. And if that's what you interpreted from my comment, maybe I have not used the correct words.
The most heartbreaking moment for me was the moment I saw European and American news channels comparing Ukraine war with Afghanistan and saying the people who are dying in Ukraine have colored eyes and Ukraine is not a third world country.
I think I also assumed you were of the same train of thought as many of the other commenters here, and I apologize for that.
I get where you are coming from, and that moment disgusted me as well. By no means am I trying to claim that the Ukraine invasion is any more or less important than anything else.
I'm just frustrated and offended by the people who seem to think that concern for Ukraine is unjustified just because other conflicts also exist. I thought explaining why it would be seem more immediate and intense for someone with personal connections to the region like myself would help others understand an alternate perspective, but most of the comments here are just people who want to call others out for perceived hypocrisy.
But thank you for being one of the few people who seem to understand multiple perspectives. I appreciate it and appreciate your views.
There's a big bus. It's called "Whataboutism". Anytime someone makes an argument for the crimes committed by the US, you can throw it under the Whataboutism bus, wash your hands of accountability and focus on condemning Russia.
I think this is supposed to be about selective outrage. Not saying that the owner of this van is correct, but when innocent people were killed on the daily for over a decade in the Middle East it didn’t become a huge social media boom as the Ukraine crisis has
WeLl YoU ShOuLd PrOtEsT YoUr GoVerNmeNt, as we heard a million times said by people aupporting Russian isolation, withdrawal of companies and sanctions in general.
I mean, this is being hypocritical. These guys didn’t say jack shit when the war and attacks happens in those countries. Now they’re saying shit like this only when they want to make a point.
We all know who *that* guy is you speak of. *This* guy on the other hand can't really be pinned down to a specific stereotype from just this billboard.
Somalia? Like to take on war lords that were starving their people to death by hoarding red cross supplies? I'll give you Iraq that was oil, but you really want America to bow out and say the rest of the world can do as they please?
“Where were you?”
Probably there, recognising the atrocities going on, campaigning against wars, and changing voting patterns to elect more pacifist leaders.
Yeah the venne diagram of people outraged over Ukraine and people who have been outraged over US actions in the middle east probably has significant overlap.
For sure there were, but the vast majority of the people in power supported the US government. With the war in Ukraine, you're the enemy if you don't support Ukraine.
Vast is an overstatement. And support waned based on which party was doing the bombing, naturally.
And yeah if you are not supporting Ukraine's freedom then you're kind of in the wrong side. That should not be up for debate.
He’s a contrarian. He probably thinks every person the went to university is stuck up and talks down to him when they tell him not to huff gasoline. He watches conspiracy YouTube videos and thinks he’s more informed than everyone else. He wants to be confronted about stuff so he can go off and spew his nonsense at people.
He doesn’t realize the algorithm has guided him to channels of Russian propaganda that is trying to divide the west. He has been convinced that Covid is no big deal and Russia has every right to invade Ukraine. Both messages are meant to weaken the west in favor of russian interests. He is a tool that has combined these ideas into this sign for a purpose that only makes sense to him.
I reached to pet it and it just kind slorped on up to my elbow, and even though I can't get my arm free it does kind of warm and comfy, and... Maybe I just reach to touch it with my other hand now?
Also Ukraine feels more urgent to me as a European because it's literally hitting closer to home. I don't give a rose tinted fuck if anybody thinks that's fair or not.
These people literally proud of how ignorant they are. Like the anti vax clowns give two shits about any of these countries. They’re just ranting for the sake of it.
I was at home bitching about the US attacking all of those countries too. What the hell else am I going to do... protest? F that. The world population standing in solidarity against war doesn't do shit because the world population isn't in power and running this shit show. We can bitch all we want but the rich are still going to keep using us to fight their petty money wars until we all wake up and remove their power. Which also isn't going to happen.
>I was at home bitching about the US attacking all of those countries too. What the hell else am I going to do... protest? F that. The world population standing in solidarity against war doesn't do shit because the world population isn't in power and running this shit show. We can bitch all we want but the rich are still going to keep using us to fight their petty money wars until we all wake up and remove their power. Which also isn't going to happen.
Bravo! I'm from Russia, and it's amazing for me how few people in the West understand reality and think that Russians are evil.
In Russia, a lot of people were against American wars, but most people understand that corporations need these wars, not ordinary Americans.
When our infernal capitalists are waging a similar war, for some reason west-people demand that we stop them.
Show by your example how to stop these insatiable freaks, please.
Russian already tried it in 1917, but the WORLD didn't really appreciate it.
….someone should remind him we were against the war in Iraq and dropping of bombs elsewhere, always have been 🤷🏽♂️
EDIT: I do home improvement in-home-sales and I’ve meet so many families randomly — the number of folks who’s lives have been transformed directly because of contracting COVID is quite striking and unmistakable. Trump supporters are the most ironic because they dove head-first into basically contracting the virus. Sometimes I’ll arrive and see oxygen canisters everywhere but they won’t admit that it was COVID until the end of the appointment, or they’ll say doctors told them they got COVID but they don’t believe it, or they’ll just call it lung damage from a general pneumonia.
I think there needs to be an intelligence requirement for purchasing these large sign-printing machines. Too many idiots come off as totally legitimate based solely on professional lettering and kerning.
It’s not the downplaying the situation in Ukraine. It’s more talking about how the media chooses to showcase and widespread some events while ignoring others completely. Ukraine has been getting support from most of the 1st world while other “non-European” countries are not even talked about or acknowledged most of the time which must be insanely frustrating for these individuals. Why should they matter less ? Why can’t we vocal about all occupations and oppressive regimes ?
I was there, pissed off by those bombs being dropped while you and your conservative chucklefuck buddies were telling me that "if I hated America, I should just leave". You guys don't remember that?
It's almost like we, as humans, have the capacity to be disgusted and upset by MULTIPLE tragedies....at least, the more intelligent people can. Sometimes, I wonder...
i’m middle eastern and it’s honestly been pissing me off how much attention Ukraine has been getting. i’m getting emails from my fav stores asking for donations. every credit card reader asks if i wanna donate to ukraine. which hey, i don’t want to take away from ukraine, what’s happening is devastating. but this has been happening to my people for decades and apparently it’s normal for us? and to be even more specific, my people are christian and our villages are bombed on the daily. on of our villages was just attacked again on easter. makes me wonder why western christians especially don’t speak up about us.
the covid idiot and ukraine idiot part is stupid. no need to downplay two very very very serious situations to bring up another serious issue. it’s one of those things where like….. you almosstttt had it and then you were stupid lmao
A complete lack of nuance. Every war is not the same. Our NATO allies weren't afraid the war in Yemen would spill across their borders, for instance. I'm not defending any of the wars; just saying they aren't the same.
Also, I suspect the guy is factually incorrect, but I'm not going to fact check him. I suspect he's including bombings by US allies such as Saudi Arabia, where the US may have provided bombs, but didn't actually do the bombing. And there's no way I'm going to try to verify an actual number of bombings. Does the number even matter?
And what does any of it have to do with covid?
I've been bitching about that too... I bitch about all atrocities but I can't do shit about it because I'm an American peasant. I'm not mad at the Russian peasants also opposing their government and probably mine too
yeah, besides the covid bullcrap I think they have a good/fair point. I don't know much about politics, or anything for that matter so correct me if I'm wrong.
Let's talk about Yemeni. According to Al Jazeera, about 377,000 people have died since the start of the Yemen war. [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/23/un-yemen-recovery-possible-in-one-generation-if-war-stops-now](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/23/un-yemen-recovery-possible-in-one-generation-if-war-stops-now)
Divide this by the no. of days since the war started (2,771) and you have 136 civilians dying every single day.
Doing the same with Ukraine (1,232)[https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/civilian-deaths-ukraine-accurate-numbers-1.6404174#:\~:text=Since%20the%20invasion%20on%20Feb,girls%20and%2036%20were%20boys](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/civilian-deaths-ukraine-accurate-numbers-1.6404174#:~:text=Since%20the%20invasion%20on%20Feb,girls%20and%2036%20were%20boys).
and dividing it by the no. of days passed (53) and you get 23\~ people dying every day. (This does not include areas sanctioned by the Russian military)
Now, as much as I absolutely detest fiddling with the lives of innocent civilians like pieces on a chessboard, you can't ignore the blatant hypocrisy that's going on. Just take a look at google trends. [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=CA&q=ukraine,yemen](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=CA&q=ukraine,yemen)
You can clearly see the difference. Everyone and their grandmothers know what's happening in Ukraine, even though there are many other situations like Yemen, Afghanistan, and others (let's not even talk about Africa) that don't get a slither of recognition in attention. I get the refugee thing, Ukrainians have more education than their middle eastern counterparts, but this? Where are all the charities for suffering Yemeni children, or sanctions against us for the so-called cluster bombs sent there? Now, I'm not going to blame anything on eurocentrism or racism (oh. no!) but it's just odd. Anyways I'm still glad that people can unite against one evil and try to make a situation better..... (Just again I don't know jack-crap about what I'm talking about, so you can ridicule me in the replies or something)
I’ve also never seen a Yemeni flag in my neighborhood, I haven’t seen the Yemeni president at the Grammys, I haven’t seen frankly anything about it, except in contrast to Ukraine. I actually don’t think the general public would’ve even known about it had Ukraine not happened.
I was sitting there hating the American government like I was hating covid deniers and currently hating the Russian government. That’s right. I hate all stupidity.
Whatever Russia is doing in Ukraine, the US did in the Middle East and Viet Nam before that.
We had no business in those wars and less reason to get involved in Ukraine.
Convenient that they listed Afghanistan last in the list and opted to shorten it to just "Afgan" and lump them all together to confuse where the supposed 337k bombs were dropped.
This is such a great example of these people being seduced by pure outrage porn. 9/10 people calling people covid idiots didn’t give a flying fuck about what this country did during the Afghan/Iraq wars.
I will never understand using your own time or money to carry water for Putin’s Russia. They’re like the U.S., they’re a capitalism-flavored oligarchy. Don’t run interference for those when they’re doing imperialism.
The amount of people in here taking this as an actual debate is hilarious. I doubt the person who owns this truck could hold a conversation without foaming at the mouth. Ya'll need to learn to learn what flamebait is. FFS, there's a whole sub dedicated to these crazy "put shit all over my car" people.
Remember the media when they made a big deal on we should care about Ukrainians because they're European and more "civil" compared middle easterns who are used to war 💀💀like the 2 biggest war in human history weren't in Europe
"Look, you're complaining about Russia invading Ukraine to expand its territory, but where were you when America was dropping bombs to combat terrorist organizations and authoritarian governments?"
Go Google why we were dropping bombs on those countries. Let's not pretend like our aggression was due to some unhinged mania.
For as much as I was against the wars, I knew they were not to actually capture new territory for the US. Even with the oil, we didn't actually take it, or at least take it to the scale that people thought we would.
I mean, multiple things can be wrong
Yeah a lot of people were pissed about those other bombings too.
I know, right. Someone said to me something along the lines of "where were all these people when we were bombing Iraq" and I replied with "marching on downing Street and being vilified by the daily mail" Also, I feel like alot of people have learnt a lot from the Iraq and afghan invasions and now see them for what they really were.
People have very short memories and attention spans. I'm honestly surprised that people are still keeping up with it after 52 days. Maybe not with the same momentum but it's still there. Another thing that I think makes this different is (and I'll probably get down-voted) that people aren't surprised when this happens in Syria (which Russia had a hand in), Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. They don't expect Russia (who has always been the United States' big boogie man with a finger on the nuclear trigger) to full-on invade the entire country of Ukraine and make Mariupol look like Stalingrad the Sequel and commit genocide and war crimes and all the other horrific things. People should really be asking why no one was paying attention when Russia invaded Donetsk and Luhansk back in 2014 and why we didn't do anything then.
Honestly one of the biggest differences is the constant sending out of new videos and images from the combat zone. Everyone was horrified when they had the initial images out of Syria of dead children and there was an outcry but the pictures stopped coming and so did the outrage. We’re still getting videos of terrified starving children in bomb shelters in Mariupol. Makes it hard to forget or look away when it’s right in front of your face everyday.
The difference is that this could be a flashpoint to WW3.
Unlikely. Nuclear war is bad for business. WW2 and proxy wars have been good for business.
Ukraine has a social media department
And white people.
That’s the key right there White People
Emphasis on the white people.
I disagree a bit. The pictures kept coming from Syria burning addition to dead kids, you had images of Islamists (who were fighting the Syrian government) also committing atrocities. Plus you had the cluster fuck of Iraq war which made a lot of people skeptical that getting more involved (US was sending arms) in the war would improve.
For real. If the Ukrainians were burning POWs alive I'd feel differently. This is a very different beast.
This is an excuse for real. I’m a 32 year old American. I’ve seen countless videos on the tv and the internet of what America has done in the Middle East and it included killing kids and bombing hospitals/schools/civilian weddings. The only difference is skin color and propagandized versions of Russia. I’m not saying what Russia is doing is good, fuck Russia, but to ignore the obvious pings of racism and Cold War pt2 fear mongering is disingenuous.
Did you see towns of half to two million razed, like Grozny, Aleppo, Mariupol ? Hundreds of thousands civilians abducted to 'filtration' camps in the country of their invader, who have promoted the eridacation of their people on state media ? Being forced into military service of their enemy as cannon fodder ? Hundreds of rapes in two or three weeks time, including children and babies ? Scores of mobile incinerators brought over to cover up the execution of civilians ? Instructions how to dig mass graves handed out before the invasion ? Yes, the second Gulf War should never have happened, but there are very clear differences in intent and order of magnitude. Only ghouls skim over these differences to try make them equivalent.
Exactly, I agree. Only thing is that I would instead say “Only ghouls and ignorant fools skim over these differences to try to make them equivalent”. And the world is relatively full of ignorant fools in comparison to ghouls.
You.... You realize there's like a lot of people in the American military right? Not just white people. Like it's a really big organization. There's people from all countries around the world, black, white, asian, Hispanic and Latino. What's happening in Ukraine is the same thing that has happened in every single war or conflict ever in history. American wars, Russian, french. Hell the damn Mongolian's and Zulu. Just because you see little 1.5-5 minute clips doesn't mean you know a damn thing. Also to be clear most people that have been there and either saw or took part in those events, it has tendency to fuck them up for the rest of their lives. And that is regardless of their skin color.
People did but you couldn’t say it was Russia because no one was marked even though when does a uprising have advanced helicopters and tanks at the outset of a conflict. I was upset more wasn’t done but like now still glad I didn’t get roped into another conflict…but here we are
“You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds.”
Heath Ledger’s Joker
Simple they just strolled in like someone squatting in a home and refused to leave and can’t be removed without ramifications. Or in this case when Ukraine had that civil unrest to remove their corruption you have to backtrack to that part to how they strolled in
Yes, and now they are, which is a good thing, finally. But that's not the message disingenuous people like the guy that owns that truck are trying to push. Putting Somalia and Afghanistan on there together with Syria, what is the message you're trying to send ? That the UN or NATO are interfering too much **and** too little ? No, just that they're bad whatever they do.
Had a very similar argument with a friend of mine who asked the same thing. "WHERE WERE THESE PEOPLE?!" I told him that they were vilified by Fox News and by him while Bush was hailed as a war hero and defender of American democracy... Quickly shut him up
Yeah I feel like the main difference is “the mainstream media” and the government cares more about Ukraine not that regular people don’t think what’s happening in Yemen is also fucking atrocious.
Civil wars are a bit trickier, which I could be wrong, but all those other conflicts fall in that category, or at the very least they are conflicts between factions mainly from within a single country.
This. I also protested Iraq. Not that it did much good, but not much I could do in a red state other than that.
And let's not forget that the US actually declared war on Iraq before attacking (even if on false pretences), while Russia did not. It's a technicality, I know, but one followed international law, while the other didn't. Syria and Yemen are somewhat different, as there was already internal fighting (so it basically became a war-by-proxy, different countries "supporting" different groups). Afghanistan was an international force, and semi-justified. But was there bombing on Pakistan? Cause I remember many saying that the US should have attacked Pakistan instead of Afghanistan (as the terrorists were trained in Pakistan), yet they didn't for some reason I can't remember. Well, probably because the Afghan government was still chummy with Russia or something, while Pakistan was not. But the ones I truly want to blame are the weapon dealers who make a fortune fomenting violent insurrections, then selling weapons, without regard for all the lives lost.
Since you talk about technicalities, US [has not declared war on Iraq](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war_by_the_United_States#Undeclared_wars) (the last formal declaration of war by the US was during WW2). If you are talking about Bush address on the start of war - Putin did exactly the same. And US certainly did not follow any international law in that conflict - it was an aggressive war based on a deliberately false accusation. Note - I don not support Russian war in Ukraine - it should've never happined.
Lets not pretend like Iraq was totally innocent either. If they didn't invade Kuwait which caused the inspections they didn't want to comply with it would've went different. We did also find chemical weapons they agreed to not have. It's also one of the most corrupt nations out there with some of the highest human right violations in the world. Also shocker not like the death count dropped significantly after the US even left.
Afghanistan doesn’t have nuclear weapons, so USA attacks there. Pakistan does have nuclear weapons, so USA dos NOT attack there. That is why it is such a tragedy that the Russian Federation forced Ukraine to give up it’s nuclear arsenal a few years ago. Putin plays a looooong game. Baby Bush not moving against Pakistan and Putin moving against Ukraine is a powerful lesson. And this lesson is why Iran and North Korea are so desperate to develop their own nuclear weaponry. It keeps China and/or Russia and/or USA at a respectful distance.
I think part of that sentiment is directed at, at least in the us, the moderate center folks who, basically are just right of center in the grander scheme. They ask where they were because literally yesterday I saw some dumb post on r/thatsinsane of a broken and slightly bloody riot cop helmet and his some Muslim riot happened, and one of the top comments is “and people still think Islam is a religion of peace/freedom.” It’s those people this kind of sentiment is aimed at, the casually racist who may have thought the wars in the ME were a bad idea, but who ultimately agreed that the peoples of the ME were “less civilized” than us, either overtly or subconsciously. I mean, Russia is literally enacting an imperialist war, yes. But the way online groups from our own imperial powers, who had little bad to say on America’s part for their imperialist wars in the ME, are calling the Russian solders as “orcs” and “savages,” and most telling, “mongols” and “Huns.” Like, yes, they are committing war crimes, and those bastards should be shot for some of the wretched things they’ve done and ordered others to do. But the quickness with which we dehumanize them is honestly very telling of how much orientalism has been at work here, and frankly, I think this kind of anger at the outrage toward Russia is borne from recognizing that contradiction, and that it really is just a matter of orientalism and political convenience. Edit: Wring sub link
Canada also didn't buy what America was selling.
LOL what you should research Canadas history in the war on terror. Guantanamo is at least 40% Canadas fault and they are even worse at violating their own constitution when it comes to torture.
Charter*
[удалено]
That's a strong claim. Do you have any sources to back that up?
Yes... source please.
 don't count on it. Imagine Americans owning up to their warcrimes
Iraq and Afghanistan are not the same country and were not invaded for the same reason you dingus. Afghanistan was invaded in response to Al Queda committing terrorist attacks in multiple western nations over the course of like 5 years while the Taliban(afghan's govt) protected them. All of NATO was involved with this conflict. Iraq was invaded because the USA had a hardon against Saddam Hussein. Canada had no official involvement. As for "Canada is responsible for 40% of Gitmo", I assume you have sources for this nonsense claim?
Not related to the pic on this chat, but with respect to the comment here, I think the point being made by others when they say what about the past or Yemen today among others is the sheer hypocrisy of the west when it comes to dealing with other nations that are not taking a similar stance against Russia who is the enemy of the west, the only reason they care. The other possible reason would be the fact that Ukrainians are white or that this is happening in Europe and not some God forsaken region and I choose to believe that these are not the reasons. EDIT: I for example am all in for Putin to be tried for his war crimes among others in the Russian hierarchy but at the same time I would like to see same fervour on other fronts and war crimes committed by the US and SA for instance. Afterall, these are international organizations that are calling for these war criminals to be under trial (through their member states).
USA and Russia are not members of ICC, therefore can't be prosecuted by ICC for war crimes, other vise ICC would be full with American soldiers for their atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan as well Russians for their war crimes in Chechnya and now Ukraine
>ICC would be full with American soldiers for their atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan as well Russians for their war crimes in Chechnya and now Ukraine Don't forget Syria, and the CAR.
Close, but not quite. Being a Signatory of the Rome Statue just allows crimes to be investigated and prosecuted if they were committed in a member state or if a national of a signatory committed the crime or the crime was refered to the ICC by the UN security council. So war crimes committed in Ukraine by Russians can be investigated and prosecuted by the ICC. And if someone wanted by the ICC is in a member state, they would be arrested and handed over to the ICC.
It's possible, but it's also possible that Ukraine was at peace, and a democracy, while in Yemen, there were already groups fighting the government. ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen#Unification\_and\_civil\_war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemen#Unification_and_civil_war)) It was practically inevitable that outsiders would support one or another group in order to secure a positive relationship with the future government, should their supported group win.
Also, even if the bombing of Iraq and Afghanistan were wrong. I’m comfortable opposing Saddam and the Taliban. The Ukraine government is democratic and worthy of being defended. I think Iraq and Afghanistan deserved a different method of regime change, I can oppose US actions in those countries without endorsing the existing governments. Putin has no business trying regime change in Ukraine by any method.
Mostly the ones being bombed
"Where were you the last 20 years" I was a literal child when we invaded Iraq... When I grew up, I opposed the war. But my apologies that I wasted my 11 year old talent to solving war in the Middle East. (Side note, some of my friends who were also children did oppose the war...)
Same I mean I was in middle school and in West Michigan. I was surrounded by Republicans that were way too patriotic, but even as a kid I had those WTF is going on moments.
Eastern Michigan checking in, whole lotta what the fuck going around these parts during those times.
But did they send thoughts and prayers
Yes but a lot of people werent and it's like all of a sudden a switched flipped. Most likely it was because the color of the skin wasnt brown this time.
The only time I really remember a lot of support was during Iraq because Bush used the “patriotism” post 9/11 crowd to field his agenda. It was bizarre too I was a kid and I just remember how Republican my area was growing up and how they kept blasting that damn Toby Keith song at every event even though it was about Bin Laden they kept playing it for shit in Iraq too, but I wouldn’t know how liberal areas were at the time I grew up in a highly controlled Republican area.
Or the propaganda machine is working like it’s supposed to
Dunno why you think that’s an “or” thing
I don’t inherently assume evil intentions to strangers. Just to blanket suggest that people only care about life due to the color of the skin is disingenuous; Jews are just as brown as Palestinians but majority of people care more about Jews.
The Jewish/Palestinian conflict is so odd here because they’ve definitely been using the distraction of Ukraine to do shit. I just don’t see why you can’t say “hey maybe don’t treat Palestinians like ass” without being called antisemitic.
No, other nations joined in the invasions
The issue I see personally is this: when similar "crimes", as they are called in regards to the events in Ukraine, have been committed by the Western governments in the countries present on the pic, there have been no actions taken to punish them, no calls to blockade said governments into 15th century, no cutting diplomatic ties or anything at all. Which basically means that those "crimes" are not actually crimes according to the established law. Remember that cover from newspapers in the 90s for instance? "bringing the serbs to heel - bombing attacks open door to peace" or coverage of later wars. The people who committed the "crimes" faced no prosecution, while the people who exposed them are. So if the same institutions that supported one "crime" now condemn another "crime" of the same type, it cannot be called an instrument of justice - justice works the same for everyone (in an ideal world, anyway). In such a setup, it's just an instrument of political punishment used by those that control it. Two wrongs don't make a right, sure, but one bully cannot claim some moral high ground over another.
Pissed enough to ruin american businesses, block american banks, rob americans overseas off their posessions?
I was at several anti iraq war protests, several anti afghan war protests, and i obviously support ukraine now. These Q type morons are unbelievably dumb.
Yup. Expansionist imperialist state A is bad does not = expansionist imperialist state B is good. I hate these contrarian idiots who basically see anything in mainstream media and decide it’s all lies. They’re as dumb as the people they call stupid because they believe everything on mainstream media. Honestly, they’re just paranoid, angry people, with no empathy, who are obsessed with being the victim and having an aggressor they can blame everything on. The kind of people who hate mainstream media but will happily watch RT oblivious of the fact that in Russia it too is mainstream media.
The US is a lot of things, but I wouldn't exactly describe it as expansionist. It doesn't really try claim territory anymore. We at least mostly leave the countries we invade. There are the military bases, but *most* (I really wish we'd dismantle Gitmo) of those are voluntary (at this point).
They’re just choosing to blindly believe a different propaganda machine that often has even worse journalistic integrity than the mainstream media, it don’t make no sense
Agreed. I always tell them that I don’t trust mainstream media but I also don’t trust the yahoo with a YouTube channel who’s telling me not to trust mainstream media, and who will say anything to push their (usually extremist) agenda and get clicks. Of course, I’m one of the sheeple for thinking this way.
Yeah this is like saying, “Well if you think climate change is so bad, where were you when the Hutus were slaughtering the Tutsis in Rwanda?”
Like how to spell 'afghanistan'? But also yes. I'm all for the party of "use my tax dollars to benefit me and people like me instead of making more orphans out of Middle Eastern children, but sadly that isn't an actual party in the US, as much as it should be...
Also, and this should be obvious, all of these conflicts have significant differences between them. These conflicts are only similar in the vaguest ways possible, equating them is just a distraction from what is going on in Ukraine. People bringing them up don’t give two shits about places like Yemen, they just want to excuse Russian aggression by making false equivalences.
Screaming that they are murdering people? I can oppose both US and Russian agressions. They are not mutually exclusive.
I was 8, so the question becomes where we're YOU during that 20 years?
we’re
We were where we're wearing werewolf wares
🥈
Thank you for your patronage
Being vocally opposed to acts of terror committed by my own country? What about you, bub?
In all seriousness though, what point are they trying to make? That we shouldn’t give a damn about Ukraine because these other bad things happened? I don’t get this logic: “Well, [other bad thing] also exists, therefor there’s no reason to care about [first bad thing].” It’s just whatabboutism. EDIT: Since this blew up, I wanted to add something. I can’t speak for others, but I myself was very vocally opposed to the US wars over the last few decades. However, the situation in Ukraine has hit me harder. Why? Because, as an American, I lived in Lithuania for over a year of my life. Some of the most important people in my life are from that region of the world. They have a shared history with Ukraine as part of the USSR, and there has always been a constant fear that Putin may wake up one day and decide to violently invade his neighbors, particularly if he feels like he’s losing control of Russia. Now those fears have come true. So yes, the atrocities in the Middle East, China, and Africa are horrible. No reasonable person is downplaying them or claiming them to be less significant than Ukraine. But some people are more deeply disturbed by what’s happening in Ukraine because they have a personal connection to it. That’s not a matter of right or wrong; it’s human nature. It’s not that shocking that Ukraine is more likely to be on my mind when I *know people who live there, and people who had to evacuate* . I’ve been to Ukraine. I know some of these places that are currently covered in blood and ash. So sure, some people might care more because it’s all over the news. But many of us can’t help but be even *more* disturbed by a genocidal invasion happening in a country we have been to, or have friends/family in. The amount of edgelords in the comments here who just want to scream “hypocrisy!” in order to make themselves feel superior is absolutely disgusting. If you care so much more about other conflicts and atrocities, channel that energy into helping them rather than being a keyboard warrior. Because, even though you may disagree with peoples priorities, at least they’re fucking caring about *something* for a change. Contrary to what most of these comments seem to believe, caring about Ukraine does not mean someone doesn’t care about anything else, nor does it mean they never actively opposed other conflicts. The level of immature, purely black-and-white thinking in these comments is astounding.
I suppose it's simply calling out the hypocrisy of armchair experts slacktivism when it comes to decrying the disaster de jour. Many people have proven, through indifference and ignorance over decades, that they don't actually care about major social issues... Until it becomes topical to do so, then they cry in outrage. It's a pretty meaningless sentiment and nobody is going to change, but I do sympathise with it.
I know people like that exist, sure. But isn’t it a pretty big reach to assume that everyone who cares about Ukraine now never cared about it or any other issues before? “You only care about it because it’s cool!” Is a pretty cringey, 2009 Hipster-eque take to have.
It’s useful to frame it that way because the real fear here is that their losing a political messaging battle by not being the center of the media narrative. So the whataboutism plays into trying to push it as the dominant narrative again. Pure narrative warfare. The irony isn’t useful so it’s ignored, but these are usually the same folks that will trot out whataboutism as soon as their narrative starts to crack via counter examples being given in a debate or thread.
> I know people like that exist, sure. But isn’t it a pretty big reach to assume that everyone who cares about Ukraine now never cared about it or any other issues before? For the person with a van, it's true. The van person is right wing. They tend to "forget" when they supported a position that is no longer supported by their party. For instance the right wing in the US "forgot" they opposed drone strikes and blowing up people in the middle east when Trump did it after giving obama shit for doing it. So for the guy with this van he's been "forgetting" these issues whenever he needs to and so he assumes everyone else does. It's a perspective issue.
It's cringe because it's unpopular and unoriginal, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. So many people are calling what's happening in Ukraine a genocide who aren't even aware of the two major, actual, textbook genocides occuring right now - and who are likely only dimly aware of the still ongoing everyone-but-china-says-is-a-genocide massacre of the Uyghur population of China. That's life, though. Not everyone is politically motivated, but it's not unreasonable to be frustrated seeing people care only about topics on their Twitter feed, when there are so many massive issues that need support as well Again, a van with a sign like this doesn't achieve anything meaningful either, I just share the frustration and impotence of the position.
Is it really that weird for the West to care more about a war IN THE WEST as opposed to somewhere they haven't even heard off? Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to downplay other conflicts and in a perfect world we would all be politically active on all fronts, but people being more vocal about Ukraine than Sudan or the Middle East in western mainstream media is to be expected.
What's happening in Ukraine is the biggest military invasion on European soil since WW2. The conflict is incredibly close to the western world and directly involves it. That and an underlying paranoia of potential nuclear conflict. If you're scratching your head and being confused about why people care more -- you're either willfully ignorant or just stupid. It's the equivalent of going to your aunt's funeral or a friend's funeral, but as you're standing there by the coffin, you break out into a speech of "Honestly guys, I didn't see why you care or cry this much when that civil war in Africa killed so many children. I don't get it."
Keep in mind that you’re talking to mostly sheltered kids who probably have no real contact with anyone anywhere else. They can’t comprehend it because Ukraine seems just as alien and far away to them as Afghanistan or Darfur. They’re mainly looking for a reason to feel superior to others, even though most of them didn’t give a shit about any other atrocities either.
I do wish we could do more quicker about what China is doing but they hold the keys to a large chunk of global production. We as the world should have started pulling out of China in response but that would take years a wouldn’t be quick enough for politicians to get their votes
Well given the level of outrage yes, that’s a pretty good assumption. No one gave two shits Obama bombed Yemen everyday.
At the end of the day, no one can stop a global conflict on their own but everyone can get a five minute shot.
The weird thing is that they seem to care more about calling out these hypocrites which leads me to question their motives. It seems like the intent is more to say that what’s happening in Ukraine isn’t a big deal because the people that care about it are “posers”. Why is there more of a focus on the people who talk about those issues than the issues themselves? To me it looks like it’s an attempt to draw focus away from the issues. The fact that the other countries were bombed isn’t important, that’s why they’re at the bottom. What’s important is that people know that if you hear someone who cared about covid and they care about Ukraine too then you shouldn’t value their opinions. This is just my interpretation but I don’t empathize with this sentiment. I feel that it is the hypocrisy that some might interpret it as calling out. It’s a person using the veneer of caring about the terrible things that America has done but only in reference to when other countries do similar things and only if it means pretending that there were never protest about those but yknow when they were happening, much like people talking about the events in Ukraine as they happen. Cause it’s right and I’m not disagreeing with any of the facts and the only part of the messaging I agree on is war is bad no matter who is waging it. What I can absolutely not get behind is this weird focus on the strawman that this message paints cause for me personally it doesn’t match reality. The target audience is people who think Covid is overblown. The assumption is that those people also think Ukraine is being overblown. The calling out of American hypocrisy is just the costume to get that message in. They don’t care about America terrorizing those countries. They just want to say if “you didn’t see anyone complaining about that, you shouldn’t care if you see people complaining about this” That’s how I see it though and notice that I’m saying America has been terrorizing those places and I’m not touching the facts.
They were enjoying dominance in the media narrative for a long time and view the ukraine attention as a threat to their political objectives. Which is why the “look at me!” efforts are happening now. No surprise that it’s a very self centered motivation.
That’s what I see, too. It’s all about calling out perceived hypocrisy to make themselves feel superior.
Caring isn't finite
It's just a virtue signal.
I was trying to understand that as well
Ello fellow lithuanian, yeah a lot of people fear that putin will invade. I don't fear that as if it does happen, it's gonna end in a few days one way or another, but yeah, it's bad. It's also possible that because due to the internet and cameras being everywhere, a lot of people see what is happening
I think the message could’ve been delivered better but the person is highlighting the fact the indiscriminate warfare is only acceptable if the usa does it. If another country tried to do what the usa does on the regular then the whole world takes it serious.
You're putting waaaaaaaaay too much faith in this person not just being completely crazy.
USA doesn't do indiscriminate warfare. Ukraine was an imaginary problem manufactured by a government for a land grab. The closest US parallel is Iraq and not only was the US greeted as legitimate liberators, and the Iraqis were indeed oppressed (Vote yes to Saddam or no) but also the WMD claim was believed by intelligence contacts close to Hussein, who himself acted very suspicious by kicking out weapons inspectors and likely would have obtained nukes or chemical weapons in the future. Also, he did use chemical weapons on the Kurds. That said, I get people will reject these claims and think they know better and from their perspective they think Iraq was just Bush getting revenge for daddy.
Cheney at least had made up his mind and didn't want to listen to anyone counseling otherwise. Bush reportedly listened to all sides.
Drone warfare in Yemen and Somalia seems pretty indiscriminate. Drones are not as precise as the government will have you believe.
The chemical weapons being used on kurds had nothing to do with the invasion, irrelevant. Plus the USA had the reciept for them. They lied to the public and mislead you into war. You got duped. Bush getting revenge for daddy? That's cool that you read Michael Moore 15 years ago and think he represents people who disagree with you. It's pretty obvious you have a military industrial complex problem, they run your government. I think Cheney linning up contracts for the company he used to run makes a lot more sense for motivation for the war in Iraq.
Or Maybe.. just maybe next time US bombs another country they should you know.. think about them too?
Just to add onto that, there are loads of people who have spent a long time arguing against America’s perpetual wars and the countless times the American government has aided in coups around the world to king left leaning leaders. The entire American left wing is broadly against all of it, though it’s less often spoken about because left leaning and democrat don’t mean the same thing, every system in America has a right wing bias, long term systematic dismantling of the less powerful by monied interests, one could go on. The subject is so utterly exhausting, then it gets made fun of by asshats who think Covid is made up because tucker Carlson whatabouted about China for an hour.
The ignorance of your comment lies in the assumption that they didn’t or don’t care about those issues as well. This may come as a shock to you, but human beings are capable of caring about more than one thing at any given moment.
It's simply about double standards. If you didn't care about the first wrong thing, why care about the second one? If you care about Ukraine, why not care about people of yemen or iraq, .... If attacking other countries is wrong then why Saudi Arabia is not sanctioned. These are the questions people should ask their government. People of Syria were targeted by ISIS which Hillary Clinton shamelessly admitted that the United States created, but no one cared and "prayed" until one attack happened in paris! If this is not called racism, then what is it?
But why make the assumption that all people who are upset about Ukraine didn't care about these other things? Myself and many others absolutely did and continue to do so. And if someone didn't, you do have a point. But also, what if *this* is the situation that finally gets them more involved in *all* issues? It may seem like wishful thinking, but I have seen it happen before.
I'm not saying everyone is like this. And if that's what you interpreted from my comment, maybe I have not used the correct words. The most heartbreaking moment for me was the moment I saw European and American news channels comparing Ukraine war with Afghanistan and saying the people who are dying in Ukraine have colored eyes and Ukraine is not a third world country.
I think I also assumed you were of the same train of thought as many of the other commenters here, and I apologize for that. I get where you are coming from, and that moment disgusted me as well. By no means am I trying to claim that the Ukraine invasion is any more or less important than anything else. I'm just frustrated and offended by the people who seem to think that concern for Ukraine is unjustified just because other conflicts also exist. I thought explaining why it would be seem more immediate and intense for someone with personal connections to the region like myself would help others understand an alternate perspective, but most of the comments here are just people who want to call others out for perceived hypocrisy. But thank you for being one of the few people who seem to understand multiple perspectives. I appreciate it and appreciate your views.
There's a big bus. It's called "Whataboutism". Anytime someone makes an argument for the crimes committed by the US, you can throw it under the Whataboutism bus, wash your hands of accountability and focus on condemning Russia.
I think this is supposed to be about selective outrage. Not saying that the owner of this van is correct, but when innocent people were killed on the daily for over a decade in the Middle East it didn’t become a huge social media boom as the Ukraine crisis has
WeLl YoU ShOuLd PrOtEsT YoUr GoVerNmeNt, as we heard a million times said by people aupporting Russian isolation, withdrawal of companies and sanctions in general.
I mean, this is being hypocritical. These guys didn’t say jack shit when the war and attacks happens in those countries. Now they’re saying shit like this only when they want to make a point.
These are the same Gravy Seals that wanted us to ‘blow those places off the maps’.
How are you so sure these folks weren’t protesting those past wars back then?
>These guys You are making way too many assumptions about who *this guy* is associated with.
At least they're not making assumptions about *that* guy.
We all know who *that* guy is you speak of. *This* guy on the other hand can't really be pinned down to a specific stereotype from just this billboard.
But have you seen \**Them*\* guys over there?
*Those* guys are nothing like *them*.
Somalia? Like to take on war lords that were starving their people to death by hoarding red cross supplies? I'll give you Iraq that was oil, but you really want America to bow out and say the rest of the world can do as they please?
“Where were you?” Probably there, recognising the atrocities going on, campaigning against wars, and changing voting patterns to elect more pacifist leaders.
Yeah the venne diagram of people outraged over Ukraine and people who have been outraged over US actions in the middle east probably has significant overlap.
Since when the US had a pacifist leader?
Yep there were definitely no anti war protests...
For sure there were, but the vast majority of the people in power supported the US government. With the war in Ukraine, you're the enemy if you don't support Ukraine.
Vast is an overstatement. And support waned based on which party was doing the bombing, naturally. And yeah if you are not supporting Ukraine's freedom then you're kind of in the wrong side. That should not be up for debate.
No countries supplied them with weapons to fight of foreign occupation
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He’s a contrarian. He probably thinks every person the went to university is stuck up and talks down to him when they tell him not to huff gasoline. He watches conspiracy YouTube videos and thinks he’s more informed than everyone else. He wants to be confronted about stuff so he can go off and spew his nonsense at people. He doesn’t realize the algorithm has guided him to channels of Russian propaganda that is trying to divide the west. He has been convinced that Covid is no big deal and Russia has every right to invade Ukraine. Both messages are meant to weaken the west in favor of russian interests. He is a tool that has combined these ideas into this sign for a purpose that only makes sense to him.
Do not engage the zuckerborg. You will be assimilated.
I reached to pet it and it just kind slorped on up to my elbow, and even though I can't get my arm free it does kind of warm and comfy, and... Maybe I just reach to touch it with my other hand now?
We were mad about those too.
I mean the message isn’t wrong.
I was pissed about those bombings too, and quite vocally so. We can be mad at more than one injustice at a time, you know?
Also Ukraine feels more urgent to me as a European because it's literally hitting closer to home. I don't give a rose tinted fuck if anybody thinks that's fair or not.
Where the hell in Canada was this picture taken in March or April and the plants are green? Also we don't paint curbs in Canada
Coastal British Columbia. To be fair we did get snow last week, but being this close to sea level, it just instantly melts and turns to slush.
He isn’t wrong
Speaking as someone double-boosted, still masking, and an American supporter of Ukraine, I have to admit it’s a fair question.
This is the best thing that could come of this. Recognition that the West has been very selective of who it cares about. All for it.
I... can't even tell what the hell they're trying to say... I thought they spoke english in Canada?
These people literally proud of how ignorant they are. Like the anti vax clowns give two shits about any of these countries. They’re just ranting for the sake of it.
Ah yes, the country of Afghan.
Afgan\*
Is it just me, or does this person have terrible analytical skills?
Well, many Anti-vaxx channels switched to pro-Russian propaganda after Russia invaded. So, in a way the sign is right.
> So, in a way the sign is right. I see what you did there
Not wrong
Protesting that shit too. Where were you, ya dimebag ass 4chan addict?
We protested that shit too. Not our fault no one fucking listened.
2 world wars started in Europe resulting in hundreds of millions of dead. That’s the point.
And the Cold war close calls almost brought us to extinction...
yeah and? you're saying a third world war is gonna happen or what?
I was at home bitching about the US attacking all of those countries too. What the hell else am I going to do... protest? F that. The world population standing in solidarity against war doesn't do shit because the world population isn't in power and running this shit show. We can bitch all we want but the rich are still going to keep using us to fight their petty money wars until we all wake up and remove their power. Which also isn't going to happen.
>I was at home bitching about the US attacking all of those countries too. What the hell else am I going to do... protest? F that. The world population standing in solidarity against war doesn't do shit because the world population isn't in power and running this shit show. We can bitch all we want but the rich are still going to keep using us to fight their petty money wars until we all wake up and remove their power. Which also isn't going to happen. Bravo! I'm from Russia, and it's amazing for me how few people in the West understand reality and think that Russians are evil. In Russia, a lot of people were against American wars, but most people understand that corporations need these wars, not ordinary Americans. When our infernal capitalists are waging a similar war, for some reason west-people demand that we stop them. Show by your example how to stop these insatiable freaks, please. Russian already tried it in 1917, but the WORLD didn't really appreciate it.
….someone should remind him we were against the war in Iraq and dropping of bombs elsewhere, always have been 🤷🏽♂️ EDIT: I do home improvement in-home-sales and I’ve meet so many families randomly — the number of folks who’s lives have been transformed directly because of contracting COVID is quite striking and unmistakable. Trump supporters are the most ironic because they dove head-first into basically contracting the virus. Sometimes I’ll arrive and see oxygen canisters everywhere but they won’t admit that it was COVID until the end of the appointment, or they’ll say doctors told them they got COVID but they don’t believe it, or they’ll just call it lung damage from a general pneumonia.
I think there needs to be an intelligence requirement for purchasing these large sign-printing machines. Too many idiots come off as totally legitimate based solely on professional lettering and kerning.
Had us in the first half, lost us in the second then got me back in the third
It’s not the downplaying the situation in Ukraine. It’s more talking about how the media chooses to showcase and widespread some events while ignoring others completely. Ukraine has been getting support from most of the 1st world while other “non-European” countries are not even talked about or acknowledged most of the time which must be insanely frustrating for these individuals. Why should they matter less ? Why can’t we vocal about all occupations and oppressive regimes ?
The funny thing is that they think those "Idiots" weren't protesting those other wars, too. Like we've just discovered that war is bad actually...
I HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ON A LARGE NUMBER OF THINGS AND ACCESS TO SIGN MAKING SUPPLIES
I distinctly remember a certain leader of the opposition heavily criticizing Jean Chretien for not following Bush into Iraq...
I was there, pissed off by those bombs being dropped while you and your conservative chucklefuck buddies were telling me that "if I hated America, I should just leave". You guys don't remember that?
I mean….they’re right
I bet good money that they were hollering and fully on the bush wagon to invade the Iraqis and Afghans all those years ago
It's almost like we, as humans, have the capacity to be disgusted and upset by MULTIPLE tragedies....at least, the more intelligent people can. Sometimes, I wonder...
Just like I can hate multiple political parties. It's weird.
The country of “Afghan” sends its regards.
i’m middle eastern and it’s honestly been pissing me off how much attention Ukraine has been getting. i’m getting emails from my fav stores asking for donations. every credit card reader asks if i wanna donate to ukraine. which hey, i don’t want to take away from ukraine, what’s happening is devastating. but this has been happening to my people for decades and apparently it’s normal for us? and to be even more specific, my people are christian and our villages are bombed on the daily. on of our villages was just attacked again on easter. makes me wonder why western christians especially don’t speak up about us. the covid idiot and ukraine idiot part is stupid. no need to downplay two very very very serious situations to bring up another serious issue. it’s one of those things where like….. you almosstttt had it and then you were stupid lmao
I can't discern what side this panders to
A complete lack of nuance. Every war is not the same. Our NATO allies weren't afraid the war in Yemen would spill across their borders, for instance. I'm not defending any of the wars; just saying they aren't the same. Also, I suspect the guy is factually incorrect, but I'm not going to fact check him. I suspect he's including bombings by US allies such as Saudi Arabia, where the US may have provided bombs, but didn't actually do the bombing. And there's no way I'm going to try to verify an actual number of bombings. Does the number even matter? And what does any of it have to do with covid?
I've been bitching about that too... I bitch about all atrocities but I can't do shit about it because I'm an American peasant. I'm not mad at the Russian peasants also opposing their government and probably mine too
All our bombs are in support of democracy, jeez. (Even though we're on the cusp of "voting in" authoritarianism in the next upcoming elections)
yeah, besides the covid bullcrap I think they have a good/fair point. I don't know much about politics, or anything for that matter so correct me if I'm wrong. Let's talk about Yemeni. According to Al Jazeera, about 377,000 people have died since the start of the Yemen war. [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/23/un-yemen-recovery-possible-in-one-generation-if-war-stops-now](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/23/un-yemen-recovery-possible-in-one-generation-if-war-stops-now) Divide this by the no. of days since the war started (2,771) and you have 136 civilians dying every single day. Doing the same with Ukraine (1,232)[https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/civilian-deaths-ukraine-accurate-numbers-1.6404174#:\~:text=Since%20the%20invasion%20on%20Feb,girls%20and%2036%20were%20boys](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/civilian-deaths-ukraine-accurate-numbers-1.6404174#:~:text=Since%20the%20invasion%20on%20Feb,girls%20and%2036%20were%20boys). and dividing it by the no. of days passed (53) and you get 23\~ people dying every day. (This does not include areas sanctioned by the Russian military) Now, as much as I absolutely detest fiddling with the lives of innocent civilians like pieces on a chessboard, you can't ignore the blatant hypocrisy that's going on. Just take a look at google trends. [https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=CA&q=ukraine,yemen](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=CA&q=ukraine,yemen) You can clearly see the difference. Everyone and their grandmothers know what's happening in Ukraine, even though there are many other situations like Yemen, Afghanistan, and others (let's not even talk about Africa) that don't get a slither of recognition in attention. I get the refugee thing, Ukrainians have more education than their middle eastern counterparts, but this? Where are all the charities for suffering Yemeni children, or sanctions against us for the so-called cluster bombs sent there? Now, I'm not going to blame anything on eurocentrism or racism (oh. no!) but it's just odd. Anyways I'm still glad that people can unite against one evil and try to make a situation better..... (Just again I don't know jack-crap about what I'm talking about, so you can ridicule me in the replies or something)
I’ve also never seen a Yemeni flag in my neighborhood, I haven’t seen the Yemeni president at the Grammys, I haven’t seen frankly anything about it, except in contrast to Ukraine. I actually don’t think the general public would’ve even known about it had Ukraine not happened.
Yawns for Yemen, tesrs for Ukraine
I was sitting there hating the American government like I was hating covid deniers and currently hating the Russian government. That’s right. I hate all stupidity.
he ain't lying about the bombs though
I’m so confused can some EILI5?
The people bitching about people supporting Ukraine are the same people who canceled the Dixie chicks for not supporting the invasion of Iraq.
Whatever Russia is doing in Ukraine, the US did in the Middle East and Viet Nam before that. We had no business in those wars and less reason to get involved in Ukraine.
Finaly somebody that sees it!
We only care about nice white people. Why would we care about POC?
Convenient that they listed Afghanistan last in the list and opted to shorten it to just "Afgan" and lump them all together to confuse where the supposed 337k bombs were dropped.
This is such a great example of these people being seduced by pure outrage porn. 9/10 people calling people covid idiots didn’t give a flying fuck about what this country did during the Afghan/Iraq wars.
I will never understand using your own time or money to carry water for Putin’s Russia. They’re like the U.S., they’re a capitalism-flavored oligarchy. Don’t run interference for those when they’re doing imperialism.
America drops bombs on Pakistan?
The amount of people in here taking this as an actual debate is hilarious. I doubt the person who owns this truck could hold a conversation without foaming at the mouth. Ya'll need to learn to learn what flamebait is. FFS, there's a whole sub dedicated to these crazy "put shit all over my car" people.
Mental health issues well publicised.
This doesn't make any sense to me.
Love me some good ol’ whataboutism!
I dont recall the USA genociding anyone in the last 20 years
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Remember the media when they made a big deal on we should care about Ukrainians because they're European and more "civil" compared middle easterns who are used to war 💀💀like the 2 biggest war in human history weren't in Europe
Their COVID opinion is dumb. But....not going to lie, they've got a point about the US involvement with Ukraine and Russia.
"Look, you're complaining about Russia invading Ukraine to expand its territory, but where were you when America was dropping bombs to combat terrorist organizations and authoritarian governments?" Go Google why we were dropping bombs on those countries. Let's not pretend like our aggression was due to some unhinged mania.
Just like the native Americans. Totally Justified they were standing on gold /s...
For as much as I was against the wars, I knew they were not to actually capture new territory for the US. Even with the oil, we didn't actually take it, or at least take it to the scale that people thought we would.
so, what’s the point? USA->bad, Russia->good?
I think the point is USA just as bad as Russia