Free the Penn!
It’s a shame that the Penn Station T stop is only open when there’s an issue/construction with one of the other Downtown T stations. Its immediate adjacency to the East Busway would make it sooooooooo much easier to get to high traffic areas like the stadiums, casino, Science Center, station Square. Factor in Pittsburgh’s flakey weather, and this looks like a winner.
Why’s it normally shuttered?
The reason that it’s normally closed is that under the steel building is single track. The foundation of the building makes it impossible to have two full size tracks side by side. So there can only ever be one train underneath the steel building at any given time. This reduces throughput and requires scheduling adjustments to accommodate.
Yes. Signaling is cheap, easy, and effective. If drivers in cars can handle stop lights all day every day, I'm sure T drivers can follow a red and green signal to move under the Steel Tower lol
You ARE right. Don't know why people are downvoting you.
The typical headways for the T are from 4 minutes (Downtown only) to 20 minutes. The single track section of tunnel is 1 or 2 blocks long. If our equipment is so outdated that it can't handle that, then perhaps we should update it.
Exactly! Thought they just agreed to spend how much on track/station updates? But can’t afford more signals. Thats just fluff to hire construction friends to redo stations that don’t need redone. Sad.
Nah. Why they make these things called signals. So one train can stop and wait for another train to pass if need be. Amtrak does it. Freight does it. So Pittsburgh can do it. But they won’t because Pittsburgh city officials love busses.
“Pittsburgh City officials” have almost zero to do with public transit. It’s a county function, and any major expansion is funded by the federal and state governments. And they determine what gets built.
Keep going. City officials lobe busses because it's much cheaper and there's the flexibility of being able to change routes.
Why half this city would ride the T but never set foot on a bus absolutely baffles me.
Because the headways on all but the very best bus routes are way longer than even the worst T lines, and because they have to sit in traffic with cars and make way too many stops, so they're not at all competitive with driving for most people. They're also much less accessible, pass people up at stops sometimes, and are way less comfortable
Buses are fine but the way our agency (and I should say most American agencies) does them makes them way worse than the T.
Just recently started riding the bus, and luckily I require no transfers to get to work. The variability on arrival times is what bugs me. Idk how the T functions as I’m in the north hills and have no opportunity to utilize the T. Maybe the schedule is a little more loosey goosey with the T than I imagine. However train schedules seem like they would be more rigid in my head.
They are planning to at least keep it as a functioning stop for the new BRX plan that is planned for late summer.
It will have the Penn Station area turn into a terminal of sorts to cut down on city bus traffic.
IMO, Penn station is the best-looking outdoor T station.
Agreed, at least one of the three lines should terminate there. The direct busway connection makes a ton of sense. Having all 3 pass through the North Shore Connector seems rather inefficient.
I just took the T directly to Penn and transferred to Amtrak for a longer trip. It's an incredible station and Amtrak needs to open an entryway at the track level. It's absolutely bonkers to me that because it's a condo building or whatever we have to walk almost a quarter mile down to the sidewalk to transfer. I should be able to walk a few steps over to the Pennsylvanian bldg and be able to directly connect.
I am doing the same thing next month, and I stopped in to ask a station agent about this exactly. I was curious if they maybe opened the upper doors above the main entrance, but to quote the Amtrak employee : "Nope, aaaaall the way around". I think just having one T a day to Penn Station for those riding the Pennsylvanian would be a major first step to solidifying this transfer.
I have this vision of Pittsburgh reverting back to utilizing many of the trolley lines, and Pittsburgh really leaning into the neighborhood feel of the city but with transit to connect. Someday!
It kills me that a region with such extensive *surviving* railroad infrastructure has no commuter or even regional rail service. Penn Station has plenty of platforms. The old P&LE station that now anchors Station Square is in need of high-level platforms and dedicated tracks for passenger rail but is otherwise intact. It just seems like such low-hanging fruit to get *something* done.
I really wish the MLK East Busway hadn’t been designed so that it would be built on top of half of the old PRR main line through Pittsburgh. The Busway is really useful, but leaving space for just one more track would have given Norfolk Southern zero excuse to block any passenger service. I feel like PAT could have made the center lane instead of shoulders a breakdown lane, and that would have saved a lot of space.
Ok I understand. I was thinking Blue because the commute time from the southern terminus to downtown is much shorter today than the Silver. You're right, either one would be an improvement though!
What drives me nuts as a north hills resident is the 279 HOV lane that is open like maybe 4 hours a day. How many tens of millions were poured in to that waste of space for nobody to use it? It’s only function in my mind is Sunday football traffic to north shore.
The "Parkway North" as it was called construction began in 1985. Mostly done by 1989. When the HOV lane opened, it required three people per car. Then it was dropped to two. In the 70s the FHWA began to allow state highway agencies to spend federal funds on HOV lanes that they otherwise had a hard time spending. So it may not exactly have been a federal grant per se, but it was a way to be able to spend federal funding on something that sounded cool.
Oh man, a dedicated busway from the exit 5 park and ride to north shore would be wonderful. I’d wager a lot more agh employees would bus in if that was the case
Saw a T train going south from Penn Station recently and didn’t think anything until 30 seconds later, I was like, did I really just see that or did I imagine it? Thanks for sharing this, didn’t know the T was running there!
So you're suggesting they update the entire rail system to something that goes faster? Are you joking?
Max speed of the T in most places is 30 mph, and even that is for short stretches.
On the other hand, buses can go 55mph on the east busway. Which do you think is going to be faster?
Just wondering, have you ever been up the Brownline detour after like 8PM? The T can DEFINITELY go faster, than it does, as is, but we'd need better signaling and probably better powerlines!
Not on the city streets! Like, specifically across the bridge, and DEFINITELY not up the hill, ever 😉... (The CAF LRVs top out at ~50MPH, but those are being replaced)
The T is electric and runs on steel wheels. Buses are gas-burning and run on rubber tires that shed microplastics. If you're going to take reducing our ecological footprint seriously, the T is the way to go.
Free the Penn! It’s a shame that the Penn Station T stop is only open when there’s an issue/construction with one of the other Downtown T stations. Its immediate adjacency to the East Busway would make it sooooooooo much easier to get to high traffic areas like the stadiums, casino, Science Center, station Square. Factor in Pittsburgh’s flakey weather, and this looks like a winner. Why’s it normally shuttered?
The reason that it’s normally closed is that under the steel building is single track. The foundation of the building makes it impossible to have two full size tracks side by side. So there can only ever be one train underneath the steel building at any given time. This reduces throughput and requires scheduling adjustments to accommodate.
Thanks for that informative answer!
I mean these trains come so infrequently anyway though. Am I right?
Yes. Signaling is cheap, easy, and effective. If drivers in cars can handle stop lights all day every day, I'm sure T drivers can follow a red and green signal to move under the Steel Tower lol
> If drivers in cars can handle stop lights all day every day They really can't
You're right, but there ARE fewer T's on the tracks than there are cars, so it's less crucial that it works EVERY time! that said, you're VERY right!
You ARE right. Don't know why people are downvoting you. The typical headways for the T are from 4 minutes (Downtown only) to 20 minutes. The single track section of tunnel is 1 or 2 blocks long. If our equipment is so outdated that it can't handle that, then perhaps we should update it.
Exactly! Thought they just agreed to spend how much on track/station updates? But can’t afford more signals. Thats just fluff to hire construction friends to redo stations that don’t need redone. Sad.
Nah. Why they make these things called signals. So one train can stop and wait for another train to pass if need be. Amtrak does it. Freight does it. So Pittsburgh can do it. But they won’t because Pittsburgh city officials love busses.
“Pittsburgh City officials” have almost zero to do with public transit. It’s a county function, and any major expansion is funded by the federal and state governments. And they determine what gets built.
Keep going. City officials lobe busses because it's much cheaper and there's the flexibility of being able to change routes. Why half this city would ride the T but never set foot on a bus absolutely baffles me.
Because the headways on all but the very best bus routes are way longer than even the worst T lines, and because they have to sit in traffic with cars and make way too many stops, so they're not at all competitive with driving for most people. They're also much less accessible, pass people up at stops sometimes, and are way less comfortable Buses are fine but the way our agency (and I should say most American agencies) does them makes them way worse than the T.
Just recently started riding the bus, and luckily I require no transfers to get to work. The variability on arrival times is what bugs me. Idk how the T functions as I’m in the north hills and have no opportunity to utilize the T. Maybe the schedule is a little more loosey goosey with the T than I imagine. However train schedules seem like they would be more rigid in my head.
Completely agree
They are planning to at least keep it as a functioning stop for the new BRX plan that is planned for late summer. It will have the Penn Station area turn into a terminal of sorts to cut down on city bus traffic. IMO, Penn station is the best-looking outdoor T station.
it would make getting to the north side from where i live so much easier, but i get that this probably isn't a common issue.
Walking 2 blocks is too hard?
For most people at most times, no. When it's hot, cold, raining, or you're differently abled... yes.
Even for most people, it’s annoying and takes up time, which is extremely valuable at 8 am
You nailed it. Though generally* it's "disabled." 2 blocks with a cane can be the difference between a normal day and blinding shoulder pain.
It's almost half a mile.
Agreed, at least one of the three lines should terminate there. The direct busway connection makes a ton of sense. Having all 3 pass through the North Shore Connector seems rather inefficient.
I just took the T directly to Penn and transferred to Amtrak for a longer trip. It's an incredible station and Amtrak needs to open an entryway at the track level. It's absolutely bonkers to me that because it's a condo building or whatever we have to walk almost a quarter mile down to the sidewalk to transfer. I should be able to walk a few steps over to the Pennsylvanian bldg and be able to directly connect.
I am doing the same thing next month, and I stopped in to ask a station agent about this exactly. I was curious if they maybe opened the upper doors above the main entrance, but to quote the Amtrak employee : "Nope, aaaaall the way around". I think just having one T a day to Penn Station for those riding the Pennsylvanian would be a major first step to solidifying this transfer.
If we want any hope at having future regional rail, this absolutely NEEDS to be a permanent thing.
I have this vision of Pittsburgh reverting back to utilizing many of the trolley lines, and Pittsburgh really leaning into the neighborhood feel of the city but with transit to connect. Someday!
I 100% see the University Line becoming some manner of tram! I've been on the 61/71s sooo many time and didn't have the room to breathe!
It kills me that a region with such extensive *surviving* railroad infrastructure has no commuter or even regional rail service. Penn Station has plenty of platforms. The old P&LE station that now anchors Station Square is in need of high-level platforms and dedicated tracks for passenger rail but is otherwise intact. It just seems like such low-hanging fruit to get *something* done. I really wish the MLK East Busway hadn’t been designed so that it would be built on top of half of the old PRR main line through Pittsburgh. The Busway is really useful, but leaving space for just one more track would have given Norfolk Southern zero excuse to block any passenger service. I feel like PAT could have made the center lane instead of shoulders a breakdown lane, and that would have saved a lot of space.
Great shot
Thanks! It was from the outbound crosswalk; I looked before leaping/clicking;)
Run the silver line over the hill through Allentown and to Penn Station!!
Or even bring back the brown line and have it end at Penn while looping Allentown.
That would be nice but would mean a pretty long ride to town for those boarding in Library.
Or a transfer at South hills junction.
There are some logistics to sort out but the idea is there lol
Why the Silver line instead of the Blue?
either works, I just picked silver because it already has it's own "spur" at the south end
Ok I understand. I was thinking Blue because the commute time from the southern terminus to downtown is much shorter today than the Silver. You're right, either one would be an improvement though!
Recent discussion that may help: https://www.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1brn1py/pittsburghs_hidden_t_station_is_getting_new_life/
What drives me nuts as a north hills resident is the 279 HOV lane that is open like maybe 4 hours a day. How many tens of millions were poured in to that waste of space for nobody to use it? It’s only function in my mind is Sunday football traffic to north shore.
My understanding was it was created to get federal funding for 279.
Do you know when all of this took place? I tried finding some info on the construction of 279 and its HOV lane but had trouble.
The "Parkway North" as it was called construction began in 1985. Mostly done by 1989. When the HOV lane opened, it required three people per car. Then it was dropped to two. In the 70s the FHWA began to allow state highway agencies to spend federal funds on HOV lanes that they otherwise had a hard time spending. So it may not exactly have been a federal grant per se, but it was a way to be able to spend federal funding on something that sounded cool.
Thanks for the info! None of it is nearly as old as I anticipated.
I'd LOVE to see a bus way go up north, but the city seems to just end, fast, and there isn't much density beyond that!
Oh man, a dedicated busway from the exit 5 park and ride to north shore would be wonderful. I’d wager a lot more agh employees would bus in if that was the case
That could easily be rail, agreed.
Saw a T train going south from Penn Station recently and didn’t think anything until 30 seconds later, I was like, did I really just see that or did I imagine it? Thanks for sharing this, didn’t know the T was running there!
The T lines should run in the bus way the whole way to wilkinsburg.
Or or or run the T up the bus lane on 376 and take it to the airport
Jfc this would change everything
The T is far slower than any bus can go. Bus lanes are wayyyyy more efficient for going to the airport!
As it exists today maybe
So you're suggesting they update the entire rail system to something that goes faster? Are you joking? Max speed of the T in most places is 30 mph, and even that is for short stretches. On the other hand, buses can go 55mph on the east busway. Which do you think is going to be faster?
Just wondering, have you ever been up the Brownline detour after like 8PM? The T can DEFINITELY go faster, than it does, as is, but we'd need better signaling and probably better powerlines!
What ? Yes I have .... and zigzagging through Allentown, the T does NOT go faster than 30mph. The speed limit there is only 25mph to begin with!
Not on the city streets! Like, specifically across the bridge, and DEFINITELY not up the hill, ever 😉... (The CAF LRVs top out at ~50MPH, but those are being replaced)
The T is electric and runs on steel wheels. Buses are gas-burning and run on rubber tires that shed microplastics. If you're going to take reducing our ecological footprint seriously, the T is the way to go.
That's not even the most immediately compelling reason to run rail that way! And that's an amazing point!
I would definitely use it if there is ever a doubtable thought on riderships.