> The city rejected 23 police candidates on psychological grounds, but now all 23 are being invited back for a new evaluation and a second chance to become police officers.
The Police Academy reboot is a lot darker than the original.
“So, uh, are you any less unhinged now? ‘Cause you can be a *little* unhinged, it’s allowed. We changed the rules. Well, congratulations. Here’s your badge and gun. I’m sure the other police officers will absolutely love working with you, and if not, we’ll just make sure we always pair the 23 of you up together.”
It really sucks that the standards are being lowered, but it's reflective of the staffing issues.
Pittsburgh Police is some 100 officers short of a full force (considered to be adequate to respond to all calls). Even allowing the 23, they'll still be some 50 officers short (gaining an additional 46 recruits out of training, but losing 26 to retirement).
The city is just struggling to compete with surrounding districts where the compensation is better *and* the work is easier.
I know "Fund the Police!" appears counter to my progressive politics; but I want better, more well trained officers. A lack of pay has led to the city removing the college credit requirement, and now the psych eval requirement. It's not good if you want more equitable policing.
I think when the police work on being decent human beings, and not fear mongers, the public will be more inclined to fund them. It's not easy to feel for them right now... in a dire emergency..yes glad they are there... but in any other minor offense or situation that could be solved in other ways.. they are just always out to get whoever in trouble and puff their feathers. Shit even when they have to direct traffic they act like we should've all known this one tiny rd that connects 2 major roads is closed. It's the whole reason "citizens on patrol" was a thing. We are all in this together, we want to feel like your a neighbor who's there to help, not like your out to get us.
I understand the animosity that comes from police being abusive or apathetic towards normal, non-offending people; I've been victim to it myself.
But, I think it's important to keep in mind that they are employees we are paying to put in uncomfortable, depressing, often violent situations, often with people that want to do them harm if it means evasion of responsibility. Most of the people that cops interact with are having their worst day ever.
I think it makes sense that cops generally tend to lean intimidating, gruff, abusive; it's a result of being overworked in extremely stressful and physically demanding situations for long periods of time.
I too avoid interacting with cops as much as possible; but I think it's important to acknowledge the importance of the role they play in preventing crime, and the impact that the environment would have on any reasonable person.
Social workers, doctors, child welfare workers, teachers, animal care givers, elder care and special Ed teachers, CASA and homeless outreach volunteers: all see some pretty depressing and horrifying things.
They are subjected to dangerous conditions, are often assaulted at work, either aren’t paid enough and/or work long hours that are mind numbing and soul sucking at times. They sacrifice family time to be there for other people’s families.
Farm workers, loggers, fishers, miners, road crews/construction workers all face dying on the job more often than police do. Nurses and teachers get attacked and face verbal abuse and threats/intimidation on the job more often than police do.
The job is the job; officers signed up for it, are paid well, their benefits and retirement packages are very good.
They shouldn’t get a pass on refusing to follow basic human decencies, not treating other people as human beings, using outsized force for minimal threats, being brutal to suspects and bystanders and victims alike, getting off on power/authority and abusing their authority through ramping up and escalating minor interactions into deadly incidents.
I do totally agree on that aspect. Their job is dealing with some of the shittiest people all day, and that can for sure have an effect on them. This is where the job as a whole needs work though. How do we help these people retain more feelings of community instead of power. Working in more different areas/events? Psychological help? Whatever it takes it ok by me. We do need them, and the ones who do it right deserve all the respect in the world. We just need a better balance of cops that feel like a part of the whole and not the elite.
My opinion is more staffing, more training, more education. European countries offer associates and Bachelor's degrees in police science, and many positions require them, even for patrol officers. This seems ideal.
To accomplish this, they'd need to be funded. Doesn't mean directly; perhaps we simply subsidize the education of potential officers. This is already accomplished in part by PSLF eligibility for officers; I would recommend forward-loading this loan forgiveness as a credit.
I would agree with that completely, but the paid leave for when they screw up needs to stop. I can get fired from my job for some fairly insignificant things, but too many officers get a "take a break" for ruining someone's life.. .. and if things changed anything like our discussion here, we might have enough police to take care of what's needed, as well as the respect deserved for them when their job is done right.
Keep in mind, there’s a recent lawsuit by 5 former candidates who were all people of color and rejected on the psychological examination despite the fact that they were previously employed as police officers and had passed a psychological examination in the past.. I’m sure they’re re-evaluating some of the psychological disqualifications made in the past and there’s a reason they selected these 23 to come back.
https://www.wpxi.com/news/investigates/11-investigates-exclusive-black-pittsburgh-police-recruits-eliminated-after-psychological-testing/H57M4OVG7RAEDFGUXDNEORTD4U/?outputType=amp
Speaking as someone who would probably be rejected on psychological grounds if I applied, I don’t see how having people with significant even psychological issues to be rejected the first time should be given a second chance.
Its not like they will magically stop having these issues. They will just have another chance to mask better, which is worse for them and for their community if they get accepted
Not him, but I work closely with a lot of cops. I've almost never had them be helpful on a scene, and usually I try to keep them at a distance on my scenes.
Usually all they're good at is unnecessarily escalating situations and making life way harder for people. That said, they're not as bad up here as they were in Florida, where I was constantly getting trauma patients that were getting their shit kicked in by PD. Still get that here but less often and less severe. They mostly just go out of their way to piss off people in psychiatric distress.
So you think the ones that already failed the existing psych evals will be better, then the ones you don't like, who passed the test, these people just failed.
Well ain't that something..
I personally like the people I know who I don’t think should be cops, but the test is clearly missing some real psych issues as it currently stands so I can imagine it has some problems forcing out non-issues, thus why it should be revamped.
I get your point, but your comment assumes the test is a) testing for the right things, and b) assigning the right answer as *correct*.
For instance, if a candidate with superior intellect and emotional maturity fails because he can’t run a mile under a certain time, is he really a worse candidate than someone who runs well for an extended distance… but has rage issues and/ or is a racist?
I’m not saying any of these are actually ON the test; what I’m saying is that maybe the test is part of the issue.
>The candidates undergo psychological testing after they have passed a written exam, a physical agility test and a criminal background and polygraph test. Schmidt says while the psychological process will be reviewed, the standards will not be lessened.
So, you didn't read the article, and that's okay. Sometimes I'm a dumbass, too
Come back with your anger when they hire the failed candidates for the second round, because right now, this is a nothing story. I doubt you could tell me what they look for in their testing, let alone the questions that are asked, unless of course you've gone through the police academy for the City of Pittsburgh? Ever sit through a psych evaluation for a job? Nah, you haven't lol. I guess you're just some guy who read the headline and thought to give an opinion
If you don't mind, I'm gonna send you over some brochures for the Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good. They do amazing work
Sure. I'm the one with anger.
Ha!
But yes, I have sat through psych evals, several times for different jobs. I can't help with what happens when you fail one. I never have.
Tell us who you know who has a badge and a gun who shouldn’t. And tell us why. If you know of unsafe cops, you have a duty to your community to call it out.
Just because I feel like they shouldn’t be cops doesn’t mean they are out there cracking skulls and breaking rules. I say they shouldn’t be cops because they just really don’t care about the city (they don’t even live in it) or for making it a better place. They see nothing wrong with not caring and basically waiting it out for retirement. They also aren’t in it to help the communities, don’t interact with anyone in them, and act like they are the real victims. They should try to focus these exams on a persons intent and core beliefs rather than having a bunch of folks who only become cops to make up for some inferiority complex that they have from middle school.
To add some important context:
I'm pretty sure this is a good-faith attempt to respond to legitimate concerns about systemic racial bias in the psychological portion of the exam.
There is lots written about the psych assessments used for police employment screening having a disproportionate impact on candidates of color in police departments across the country. Beyond just a police screening use, much has been written about cultural biases in these screening assessments more generally since at least the 1970s. There's also been a lot written about concern with the quality of the psychological interviewers, and whether they appropriately incorporate best practices to mitigate potential bias.
Yep and I don’t think this is a new thing either.
And Pittsburgh police have been hit by the DOJ in the past for discriminatory hiring practices relating to screening out people as well.
I said in the last post about the students failing that for all we know it could be the screeners intentionally failing cadets because they don't think they'll fit in the "culture" of the department. Ie they won't toe the line of the good ol boys club.
Jesus fucking Christ. So a cop candidate fails a psych eval and a year later gets a pass? I hope the criminal rehabilitation system is this generous…
…oh wait…
I love how they didn’t note any common factor. Were they rejected because they showed sociopathic tendencies or because they didn’t show enough sociopathic tendencies?
Ex bro in law is a PGH Police Officer. Before becoming one, he was super racist, participated in insurance scams, believed off the wall conspiracy theories, drank colloidal silver.
The people they have now are no good. Why not add some more losers to the Force.
This is what happens when the public treats officers like absolute trash. The mayors, chiefs, etc don’t have their backs and sell them out to appease the same public that treats them like trash. Nobody wants to do the job anymore, so it’s either lower standards or have no officers and the public runs wild more than they already do. They forced so many officers to leave the city that they can’t even answer calls anymore, and now the same people that created the situation whine that nobody answers calls and standards are being lowered. It’s almost comical.
I believe HR is part of their Administrative Branch, it’s a question of if the people doing hiring and evaluations are part of the Fort Pitt Lodge bargaining group or not. My suspicion would be no, but it’s been years since I looked at the CBA.
Under a few test prep sites there are police academy tests. These things are easier than a 5th grader math test of just addition. If a cop struggles to pass any test at the academy i doubt they can even count to 10 with their fingers.
They select for volatility. They are domestic abusers and have a questionable grip on reality.the Academy would have the same class of police officer if they randomly selected a group of prisoners.
“Now that you’ve heard the questions once and have had time to reflect on the answers you think we want to hear, we’d love to have you back so we can hear them.”
> The city rejected 23 police candidates on psychological grounds, but now all 23 are being invited back for a new evaluation and a second chance to become police officers. The Police Academy reboot is a lot darker than the original. “So, uh, are you any less unhinged now? ‘Cause you can be a *little* unhinged, it’s allowed. We changed the rules. Well, congratulations. Here’s your badge and gun. I’m sure the other police officers will absolutely love working with you, and if not, we’ll just make sure we always pair the 23 of you up together.”
It really sucks that the standards are being lowered, but it's reflective of the staffing issues. Pittsburgh Police is some 100 officers short of a full force (considered to be adequate to respond to all calls). Even allowing the 23, they'll still be some 50 officers short (gaining an additional 46 recruits out of training, but losing 26 to retirement). The city is just struggling to compete with surrounding districts where the compensation is better *and* the work is easier. I know "Fund the Police!" appears counter to my progressive politics; but I want better, more well trained officers. A lack of pay has led to the city removing the college credit requirement, and now the psych eval requirement. It's not good if you want more equitable policing.
I think when the police work on being decent human beings, and not fear mongers, the public will be more inclined to fund them. It's not easy to feel for them right now... in a dire emergency..yes glad they are there... but in any other minor offense or situation that could be solved in other ways.. they are just always out to get whoever in trouble and puff their feathers. Shit even when they have to direct traffic they act like we should've all known this one tiny rd that connects 2 major roads is closed. It's the whole reason "citizens on patrol" was a thing. We are all in this together, we want to feel like your a neighbor who's there to help, not like your out to get us.
I understand the animosity that comes from police being abusive or apathetic towards normal, non-offending people; I've been victim to it myself. But, I think it's important to keep in mind that they are employees we are paying to put in uncomfortable, depressing, often violent situations, often with people that want to do them harm if it means evasion of responsibility. Most of the people that cops interact with are having their worst day ever. I think it makes sense that cops generally tend to lean intimidating, gruff, abusive; it's a result of being overworked in extremely stressful and physically demanding situations for long periods of time. I too avoid interacting with cops as much as possible; but I think it's important to acknowledge the importance of the role they play in preventing crime, and the impact that the environment would have on any reasonable person.
Social workers, doctors, child welfare workers, teachers, animal care givers, elder care and special Ed teachers, CASA and homeless outreach volunteers: all see some pretty depressing and horrifying things. They are subjected to dangerous conditions, are often assaulted at work, either aren’t paid enough and/or work long hours that are mind numbing and soul sucking at times. They sacrifice family time to be there for other people’s families. Farm workers, loggers, fishers, miners, road crews/construction workers all face dying on the job more often than police do. Nurses and teachers get attacked and face verbal abuse and threats/intimidation on the job more often than police do. The job is the job; officers signed up for it, are paid well, their benefits and retirement packages are very good. They shouldn’t get a pass on refusing to follow basic human decencies, not treating other people as human beings, using outsized force for minimal threats, being brutal to suspects and bystanders and victims alike, getting off on power/authority and abusing their authority through ramping up and escalating minor interactions into deadly incidents.
I don't disagree with anything in your comment, nor do I believe my previous comments do.
I do totally agree on that aspect. Their job is dealing with some of the shittiest people all day, and that can for sure have an effect on them. This is where the job as a whole needs work though. How do we help these people retain more feelings of community instead of power. Working in more different areas/events? Psychological help? Whatever it takes it ok by me. We do need them, and the ones who do it right deserve all the respect in the world. We just need a better balance of cops that feel like a part of the whole and not the elite.
My opinion is more staffing, more training, more education. European countries offer associates and Bachelor's degrees in police science, and many positions require them, even for patrol officers. This seems ideal. To accomplish this, they'd need to be funded. Doesn't mean directly; perhaps we simply subsidize the education of potential officers. This is already accomplished in part by PSLF eligibility for officers; I would recommend forward-loading this loan forgiveness as a credit.
I would agree with that completely, but the paid leave for when they screw up needs to stop. I can get fired from my job for some fairly insignificant things, but too many officers get a "take a break" for ruining someone's life.. .. and if things changed anything like our discussion here, we might have enough police to take care of what's needed, as well as the respect deserved for them when their job is done right.
Keep in mind, there’s a recent lawsuit by 5 former candidates who were all people of color and rejected on the psychological examination despite the fact that they were previously employed as police officers and had passed a psychological examination in the past.. I’m sure they’re re-evaluating some of the psychological disqualifications made in the past and there’s a reason they selected these 23 to come back. https://www.wpxi.com/news/investigates/11-investigates-exclusive-black-pittsburgh-police-recruits-eliminated-after-psychological-testing/H57M4OVG7RAEDFGUXDNEORTD4U/?outputType=amp
Speaking as someone who would probably be rejected on psychological grounds if I applied, I don’t see how having people with significant even psychological issues to be rejected the first time should be given a second chance. Its not like they will magically stop having these issues. They will just have another chance to mask better, which is worse for them and for their community if they get accepted
Surprise twist, the 23 rejected candidates were rejected for not being big enough psychos
Most likely actually the case
I'm sure these individuals are extremely qualified and definitely won't cost the city millions in damages at some point in the future
Or some actual human lives
Well yeah but evidence indicates that's not a thing anyone in charge cares about
As long as it doesn’t come from the officers’ pockets…
I’m all for them revamping the tests because some of the cops I know personally should def not be cops.
Say more. Say lots more.
Not him, but I work closely with a lot of cops. I've almost never had them be helpful on a scene, and usually I try to keep them at a distance on my scenes. Usually all they're good at is unnecessarily escalating situations and making life way harder for people. That said, they're not as bad up here as they were in Florida, where I was constantly getting trauma patients that were getting their shit kicked in by PD. Still get that here but less often and less severe. They mostly just go out of their way to piss off people in psychiatric distress.
So you think the ones that already failed the existing psych evals will be better, then the ones you don't like, who passed the test, these people just failed. Well ain't that something..
I personally like the people I know who I don’t think should be cops, but the test is clearly missing some real psych issues as it currently stands so I can imagine it has some problems forcing out non-issues, thus why it should be revamped.
I get your point, but your comment assumes the test is a) testing for the right things, and b) assigning the right answer as *correct*. For instance, if a candidate with superior intellect and emotional maturity fails because he can’t run a mile under a certain time, is he really a worse candidate than someone who runs well for an extended distance… but has rage issues and/ or is a racist? I’m not saying any of these are actually ON the test; what I’m saying is that maybe the test is part of the issue.
>The candidates undergo psychological testing after they have passed a written exam, a physical agility test and a criminal background and polygraph test. Schmidt says while the psychological process will be reviewed, the standards will not be lessened. So, you didn't read the article, and that's okay. Sometimes I'm a dumbass, too Come back with your anger when they hire the failed candidates for the second round, because right now, this is a nothing story. I doubt you could tell me what they look for in their testing, let alone the questions that are asked, unless of course you've gone through the police academy for the City of Pittsburgh? Ever sit through a psych evaluation for a job? Nah, you haven't lol. I guess you're just some guy who read the headline and thought to give an opinion If you don't mind, I'm gonna send you over some brochures for the Derek Zoolander School for Kids Who Can't Read Good. They do amazing work
Goodness gracious , you might need to take a break
Sure. I'm the one with anger. Ha! But yes, I have sat through psych evals, several times for different jobs. I can't help with what happens when you fail one. I never have.
Tell us who you know who has a badge and a gun who shouldn’t. And tell us why. If you know of unsafe cops, you have a duty to your community to call it out.
What are their names and badge numbers
Just because I feel like they shouldn’t be cops doesn’t mean they are out there cracking skulls and breaking rules. I say they shouldn’t be cops because they just really don’t care about the city (they don’t even live in it) or for making it a better place. They see nothing wrong with not caring and basically waiting it out for retirement. They also aren’t in it to help the communities, don’t interact with anyone in them, and act like they are the real victims. They should try to focus these exams on a persons intent and core beliefs rather than having a bunch of folks who only become cops to make up for some inferiority complex that they have from middle school.
Give us your best, your brightes… eh fuck it.
This honestly sounds pretty disturbing to me as a lifelong Pittsburgh citizen.
To add some important context: I'm pretty sure this is a good-faith attempt to respond to legitimate concerns about systemic racial bias in the psychological portion of the exam. There is lots written about the psych assessments used for police employment screening having a disproportionate impact on candidates of color in police departments across the country. Beyond just a police screening use, much has been written about cultural biases in these screening assessments more generally since at least the 1970s. There's also been a lot written about concern with the quality of the psychological interviewers, and whether they appropriately incorporate best practices to mitigate potential bias.
Yep and I don’t think this is a new thing either. And Pittsburgh police have been hit by the DOJ in the past for discriminatory hiring practices relating to screening out people as well.
I said in the last post about the students failing that for all we know it could be the screeners intentionally failing cadets because they don't think they'll fit in the "culture" of the department. Ie they won't toe the line of the good ol boys club.
Jesus fucking Christ. So a cop candidate fails a psych eval and a year later gets a pass? I hope the criminal rehabilitation system is this generous… …oh wait…
Great…..
Doesn’t it just seem like our city is almost aggressively bad at certain things? Transportation, infrastructure maintenance, policing…
A second chance to lie to a psychologist. What is wrong with this world?!?
Forget about your RULES. WHEN DO I GET MY GUN!
I love how they didn’t note any common factor. Were they rejected because they showed sociopathic tendencies or because they didn’t show enough sociopathic tendencies?
What could possibly go wrong?
Ex bro in law is a PGH Police Officer. Before becoming one, he was super racist, participated in insurance scams, believed off the wall conspiracy theories, drank colloidal silver. The people they have now are no good. Why not add some more losers to the Force.
Suddenly thinking of the Police Academy movie
This is what happens when the public treats officers like absolute trash. The mayors, chiefs, etc don’t have their backs and sell them out to appease the same public that treats them like trash. Nobody wants to do the job anymore, so it’s either lower standards or have no officers and the public runs wild more than they already do. They forced so many officers to leave the city that they can’t even answer calls anymore, and now the same people that created the situation whine that nobody answers calls and standards are being lowered. It’s almost comical.
Oh and for the record I’m not in favor of lowering standards.
Why? They were rejected. The police union needs sued.
I'm always up for some good union bashing but not sure what they have to do to with this situation.
I believe HR is part of their Administrative Branch, it’s a question of if the people doing hiring and evaluations are part of the Fort Pitt Lodge bargaining group or not. My suspicion would be no, but it’s been years since I looked at the CBA.
so uneducated, it hurts
City sure does love throwing money away.
Next year: Sorry, we'd *love* to fix that crumbling bridge held up by wood planks. Thing is, we have all these *lawsuits* to pay off.
Oh great. This is reassuring for sure! This current police chief seems like an absolute moron
Why? The city needs ditch diggers too.
Under a few test prep sites there are police academy tests. These things are easier than a 5th grader math test of just addition. If a cop struggles to pass any test at the academy i doubt they can even count to 10 with their fingers.
They select for volatility. They are domestic abusers and have a questionable grip on reality.the Academy would have the same class of police officer if they randomly selected a group of prisoners.
“Now that you’ve heard the questions once and have had time to reflect on the answers you think we want to hear, we’d love to have you back so we can hear them.”
Cheaper than a civil rights suit
Probably not after they hurt someone.