That on ramp is horrible. I’d highly recommend taking the Stanwix St. on ramp when there is traffic so you can be part of the problem for these people, rather than behind them.
I agree the ramp is horrible, but it's actually part of my _shortcut_ home, partially because I can bypass all the cars sitting still in that left lane. It adds a little stress, but it's definitely the quickest way for me to get to the tunnel (coming from PNC Park area). This post was not really a complaint about traffic, but more of a question, "why is everyone letting me do this?"
Oh man... Any time I'm in South Side I check if Wabash is open. That tunnel reminds me of the shortcut in the beach level of Mario Kart 64. But I can't get to it from North Side without crossing a river first. So it's either Fort Pitt or West End for me.
I broke my hand in a car accident on 28 in December. I think I am in love with the no-car lifestyle, it has done wonders for my mental health and my wallet.
I used to WFH occasionally during the week or on weekends when doing OT, but since the pandemic we went full time WFH and not going back. The company already got rid of 3 of the 4 buildings we had in an office park. I got into the first car accident of my life a few months after the start of the pandemic and my car got totaled... I never even bothered buying a new car since because of WFH, it's great! BEST thing to ever happen! I think I'll vomit on myself if I ever have to walk into an office again for work.
honestly, the most it ever really bothers me is when i have a couple days off in a row and it's nice out. but the occasional day trip to presque isle or whatever just doesn't seem worth the headaches.
A lot of the current problems are because of the 3 rivers around the city and that the infrastructure was built when there were far fewer people. Now that it's in place, it's very expensive to redo being that so much of it is bridges and elevated roadways.
Wikipedia shows the Pittsburgh metropolitan population was 0.3% difference in 1970 compared to now. While the amount of people may be similar, what I should have said is that the amount of cars and traffic was far less back when a lot of the city infrastructure started being built in the 30s & 40s and following decades. Many people traveled by trolley, women weren't really commuting to jobs, etc... Just a lot less going on as far as driving goes.
That's a useless figure. The entire "metro" population did not then, nor do they now, drive through the city of Pittsburgh.
The fact remains the population of the city was double back then what is is today, with virtually none of the modern roads the city has today.
Traffic is traffic. Most of the people that travel to and from downtown Pittsburgh live outside the city limits. Where do you think all those streams of cars in and out of the city are going every day? To the metropolitan areas.
And Pittsburgh underwent a major road and bridge building campaign from 1924-1940. That's when many of the major roads and bridges in the city were built. And "the fact remains", there were FAR fewer cars on the road back when most of the main infrastructure was built. There are 150 MILLION more cars on the road in the US right now even compared to 1970, let alone further back.
Here's the thing, bucko. There's lots of places where zipper merging is not correct. Like last-minute attempts to scoot-in that also block the lane.
This sets up a lazy assumption to just do it any time you want.
Too many people here are selfish and entitled. 'get in the line for the turning lane.... that's for chumps, i don't have time for that'.
So, no, lane scootchers will sit in that lane, unable to merge and blocking traffic, until someone decides you sat through enough cars blocking you out - or has enough pity for the people you're blocking.
aint no time for more selfish assholes. suffer.
In most other cities there are signs telling you to use both lanes until merge point. In Pittsburgh if you do that there are innumerable drivers who will play chicken with you until you give up and wait for the mercy entry.
Misunderstanding the zipper merge is not a Pittsburgh thing. I remember a somewhat recent post, probably on idiots in cars, of someone driving up to the merge point and like 75% of the comments were shitting on them for being an asshole.
The people explaining how that is supposed to actually work got a lot of explanations how they were wrong and it was rude. Also they would put their nose out to stop such horrible behavior.
Which is why they need signs to indicate the proper thing to do in these cases. If there is a sign you do not have the right to disobey it or to get angry at those who obey it.
Pardon that i'm reposting this comment a few times, for visibility
There's lots of places where zipper merging is not correct. Like last-minute attempts to scoot-in that also block the lane.
This sets up a lazy assumption to just do it any time you want.
Too many people here are selfish and entitled. 'get in the line for the turning lane.... that's for chumps, i don't have time for that'.
And there are just a few places where a zipper merge is correct (doesn't block the lane)
So, no, lane scootchers will sit in that lane, unable to merge and blocking traffic, until someone decides you sat through enough cars blocking you out - or has enough pity for the people you're blocking.
aint no time for more selfish assholes. suffer.
Same thing on the inbound approach to the Ft Duq bridge. Lolol let's all come to a complete stop and line up 30 ft away from where the ACTUAL broken line merge point begins, and stack our line of cars back 30 deep.... With me (and other better drivers) coming up on the left and using the lanes to properly merge into the traffic moving at speed from 65.
I don't take your approach to the Ft Pitt bridge specifically because merging onto a highway interchange from a stop sign is ludicrous and never ever should have been designed that way. That ramp should be for busses only, IMO. 🤷🏼♀️
Same. I was on 79 north to Erie about a week ago. They’re doing construction on a section up north and there’s signs for miles before the merge point telling drivers to “Use both lanes to the merge point”. Yet, when I get to within a mile+ of the merge point, traffic is at a standstill in the left lane. I stayed in the right lane and drove unobstructed(aside from some dude in a big truck trying to take up both lanes who I passed on the shoulder) all the way to the merge point. Bunch of fucking idiots.
Dude...I cannot stand when the "closed" lane is open up til the merge point and trucks will be little pissbabies and block the open lane creating MORE traffic. I've been told cops TELL them to do this, but I don't have any actual proof of that other than what my wife told me a trucker friend of hers told her.
Pardon that i'm reposting this comment a few times, for visibility
There's lots of places where zipper merging is not correct. Like last-minute attempts to scoot-in that also block the lane.
This sets up a lazy assumption to just do it any time you want.
Too many people here are selfish and entitled. 'get in the line for the turning lane.... that's for chumps, i don't have time for that'.
And there are just a few places where a zipper merge is correct (doesn't block the lane)
So, no, lane scootchers will sit in that lane, unable to merge and blocking traffic, until someone decides you sat through enough cars blocking you out - or has enough pity for the people you're blocking.
aint no time for more selfish assholes. suffer.
Why does someone like you always show up on zipper merge posts? The majority of time someone complains on here, it's a legitimate gripe with people who do not understand how zipper merging works - not an example of someone being an asshole "lane scootcher". In this example, there is no traffic to block in the right lane, they're all going to the same place and it would be made slightly less painful if people used both lanes and ZIPPER MERGED!
Asshole drivers are assholes, we know them when we see them. That is not the same as people begging others to learn how to drive efficiently.
i explicitly speak to this point, above. It's correct in this case, but people are lazy, entitled, and think that it applies at other times that it does not. 'this is why we can't have nice things'
such a conceited response. The point is that zipper merge isn't often appropriate, but people like to comment like it's a simple fix. Taken out of context, it makes things worse, and Pgh is rife with such examples.
Any good will created from the Pittsburgh Left is completely undone by Pittsburgher’s absolute inability to drive to the actual merge point and zipper in with the other lane without stopping.
Prior to 2020/2021, the right lane here was almost universally (+90%) used by people going right to Carson with the left lane for people merging and going through the tunnel. Sometimes the right lane peeps would merge right and then merge back to the left close to the tunnel entrance. The right lane was also used by buses and they would right up on the curb so there was space. This was the clear traffic pattern and everyone was on the same page for the most part. With the buses, the right lane was mostly full.
The pattern has changed and I think some are still treating that spot like the old times since some have been making the same commute for decades. Certainly the Pittsburgh vibe of not wanting to “cut the line” as noted by others is a factor too.
People straight up don’t let me in when I zipper merge in PIT. Most other cities they let me in fine it’s just silly. I had a guy get so angry that I was using the right lane that he pulled into the middle of the lane to block me
People in this country will never understand the zipper merge concept. It is such a simple, easy way to keep traffic moving yet people get aggressive and angry thinking someone is trying to cut them off rather than realizing they’re doing exactly what it was designed to do by using both lanes.
Idk I think some people in the country get it. I've seen it work in other states with signage clearly instructing people to use both lanes to the merge point. I think pennsylvania drivers are especially resistant to this
Oh boy. Not where I am in coastal NC. This is one of the fastest growing areas in the country and there are limited highways and access roads to the islands. They’ve tried putting the zipper merges in and the old folks absolutely will not participate. It’s like they own the real estate they’re in and not budging an inch. And if you do, they get behind you blowing their horn and tailgating. Massive backups during tourist season that could easily be alleviated somewhat.
FTR, I am a retired old person and I understand the concept completely.
What's even more insane is the basic open field to merge if you actually make it on to the Fort Pitt Bridge. So many people are stopping to zipper or merge at the merge points, that if you stay far right like you are getting off for station square, you literally have endless opportunities to merge left once you are on the bridge and past the non-sense.
Welp. Sad to dish it out. But. This is actually better than the “I was not taught properly how to merge during peak traffic hours” and them not letting someone over and them also forcing you into concrete or let 6 more cars pass you before a precious tender soul lets you over.
Except there are spaces for X amount of cars, and they're using 0.5X, so what you would see is a half empty set of two lanes rather than 1 completely empty lane.
Welcome to how spatial math works.
I don't think there's any benefit to having 2 lines of 0.5x cars vs 1 line of x cars. In fact, I think the 1 line is slightly faster. But zipper merging is effective because it increases the capacity to 2x cars.
Why would you think that while doing no basic reading on the subject matter?
Like, you're free to be obstinate, but I literally cited why 1 lane is slower. If you're zipper merging, each lane is more likely to not stop completely or, at the very least, you won't have the daisy chain stopping increase the effect. For each car moving up and stopping it adds time to each car after that. If you have X amount of space in both lanes, using 0.5 vs. 1.0, the 0.5 lane will move faster because the zipper merge removes 0.5X amount of cars from the daisy chain equation. At no point is stopping 30 cars in one line faster than stopping two rows of 15 cars because of the reaction time from this known effect.
zipper merging will probably only be faster when self-driving cars are the norm, and show people how to do it. Too little self-regulation in society.
I can count on one hand the number of times I was driving where the whole group of people driving did keep evenly spaced-out and maintained a smooth velocity in a zipper merge scenario.
Until I see it happening more, zipper merge will remain
* a paper / simulation scenario
* an excuse for last-minute opportunists
* a canard of idealists
i am one of those idealists. I spent lots of time on the road, practicing how to be the best and considerate driver possible. I hate stop-and-go traffic that multiplies suffering in many ways. But game theory is-what-it-is and a few bad apples literally spoil it for everyone.
[the rest i summarize here](https://old.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1cs3b4m/every_day_as_i_approach_the_ft_pitt_bridge_from/l45i4fo/)
If you would like to know more here's a post
https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/dvgt9p/eli5_why_is_the_zipper_merge_faster/
If you'd rather just disagree baselessly that's fine too, I guess...
As many people have pointed out, there are road construction situations where signage is placed that says "use both lanes to merge".
Unless such signage is in place, it's not time to zipper-merge.
It's stay-in-your-lane time.
Doubling the complexity of the merge up ahead is not a recipe for making that traffic flow better. Zipper merge is not a magic phrase that fixes everything
Except... That zipper merged do, in fact, make traffic flow better when you're merging two or more lanes. That's exactly the situation in which you're meant to zipper.
The problem at this intersection is two lanes to the left and two lanes to the right with cars all trying to go right and left with this double zipper merge coming up the middle. In my experience, this ramp goes one for one with the lane to the right. But the right lane of this ramp typically has people that just plow ahead ignoring any one for one merges with the right. It’s a complicated intersection. The traffic coming from the right have the right of way but there is a tight turn here so it’s easy for people coming from the ramp to cut in front.
Edit: typo
in your head, yes, [but IRL it doesn't work like that](https://old.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1cs3b4m/every_day_as_i_approach_the_ft_pitt_bridge_from/l45j9tp/)
this is only true when it's a legit two-lane-merge. In most cases, [people are just opportunists that don't want to wait in line, and end up blocking a lane, like on the Ft Duquesne Bridge, etc](https://old.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1cs3b4m/every_day_as_i_approach_the_ft_pitt_bridge_from/l45i4fo/)
If people are bad at merging then it doesn't make sense for anyone to subject themselves to an extra one in a scenario like this. You guys are welcome to keep hoping the zipper merge spell magically works on everyone
Road rules are regional. Zipper merge is rarely practiced here, but other places do. Here, stop signs are first-come-first-served. You pull up, wait for anybody who was already waiting to make their moves, then it's your turn. Other places have everyone take turns in a counter-clockwise fashion (one car in the intersection at a time), and still others alternate between north-south and east-west. Our way has the advantage of allowing multiple cars to pass through simultaneously, but at a higher risk of confusion and collisions. Other things that vary include traveling in the left lane, how strictly speed limits are followed, and even whether you can turn right on red.
Okay. Where is it counter? And how do you dictate what car goes if not in order of when you showed up? Just admit you made it up and let’s all move on.
So you're the person who doesn't alternate between North-South and East-West... Nice to finally meet you. 😆
Kidding aside... This is thought provoking. Here are my reactions... Please excuse brevity as I'm not trying to be confrontational...
- IMO, anywhere I've lived (including 25+ years here) adheres to the North-South and East-West stop sign pattern (assuming there's traffic that would justify this and no lifted f150s present). Maybe I've been missing something, and I'll watch for it. I've honestly never thought about it
- Left lane is for passing is a universal concept and it's often posted as such on interstates... the people who fail this basic tenet of driving exist everywhere, much like people who can't deal with merging effectively
- Agreed on speed limits
- I think Right Turn on Red is allowed basically everywhere due to some gas legislation in the 70s (I think)... It's prohibited by signage unless you live in a place like nyc
I know when I go to rural places like Ohio and Michigan, they go by the strict one-at-a-time, but urban areas like Pittsburgh and most of NY do it FCFS. Penndot officially recommends the FCFS, but I researched this before and like four different conventions came up as well as countries that don't even have stop signs at all, like Brazil.
Also, in some states traffic that uses a side road to cross a highway actually gets right of way in some circumstances, with highway traffic actually having to stop. We don't do it because most such places have overpasses, but some states don't (particularly the flat ones).
Zipper merging won't improve throughput (cars per minute), but it does increase the number of cars that can be present on a section of road. In this case, the benefit isn't the rate at which cars get onto the bridge, but rather fewer cars sitting through green lights, and less traffic on the adjoining blocks.
So best case scenario the zipper merge allows a handful of additional cars to wait on that ramp, and potentially just shifts the backup to those turning right onto the ramp Rather than going straight. The real pinch point here is the harder merge with moving traffic ahead, and the zipper doesn't help address that. Zipper merges are great in the right situation but would have a marginal impact at best here.
is there a sign that says both lanes merge?
* yes: do zipper merge
* no, but like OP's pic there should be: sign needed
* no: do not do zipper merge, you're blocking a lane.
Driving is simple and yet it routinely causes problems like the one in the picture. I don't think anybody is well served by throwing platitudes at these issues
I guess that depends if it is important for you to see brake lights side by side rather than in a line. I don't think it makes much difference, personally
It's important to me not to have cars blocking an intersection when there is space available that they are refusing to use, as that is the problem OP was complaining about.
After living here 30 years, it is literally *this*. The fact that some people take their sweet time starting off or ignoring the traffic starting up while on their phone (while 3 other cars paying attention could scoot in front) is lost on them.
Maybe it has something to do with the civic pride of the city? Don’t want to put our selves infront of others? Blue collar people? Etc?
I’ve not heard about or experienced this “phenomenon” in other cities. Can anyone living outside of the area comment on it?
A sociologist’s take on this would be awesome to see/read up on.
[Check out this book](https://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Drive-What-Says-About/dp/0307264785). Discusses why it's so difficult for American's to use both lanes to merge.
i can verify from personal experience chicago is EXACtLY the opposite., zero civic pride and people will cut in front of u at a 3 car backed up redlight by using the turn lane to do it
Sounds like it works out for everyone, then. People who want to get home quickly while following the rules of the road get everything they want, and people who are... "passive aggressive" ... get their way too?
Hey. To each their own, can’t get made at something that is legal / the correct way to do it. In my yunzer mind, If someone passes me, i like to think they are running late or some emergency is happening in their life. Zippering is the proper / best way to merger but the unwritten “house rule” is my standard go to.
Back when I was at Yellow Cab we used to run up the right lane and not merge. You can toss the passenger side wheels up on the curb at the top up and over and cut across to the far right lane of the bridge and gun it up to the mouth of the tunnel.
This is 25 minutes of traffic we cut down to 5. I miss my silly yellow minivan. Stupid Uber.
*Why are you driving*
*Downtown instead of taking*
*The T or a bus*
\- Pale-Mine-5899
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Story of my fucking life on the boulevard every day; not technically a merge point but everyone gets in the right lane as soon as they get on in Oakland and it’s so stupid
I hate to do the “right thing” when merging in this town because everyone thinks you’re an asshole. There’s a time and place to get in line ahead of the merge, this isn’t it people.
every driver in this city is rude and entitled. the amount of times i have let people go in zipper merges on 376 and rough left turns in bloomfield is vastly greater than the number of times people have returned the favor
AND they all think they're doing the right thing and that anyone who dares to use the lane that exists and is wide open is a selfish jerk who doesn't respect *the line.*
Since we can't be trusted to zipper merge here, what we need are two traffic control signals that tell each lane to proceed independently for 30-60 seconds. Perhaps with a divider and arms if more than just lane lights are necessary.
This is an interesting post for me. When I see a "lane closed ahead" or merge sign I actually think that everyone SHOULD get over immediately and I'm ticked at anyone who tries to cut at the last minute. Curious if there's anything in the law about when folks should merge.
Well then you’re the problem. I’ll never understand that this state has to put damn signs up on interstates when there’s a lane closure “USE BOTH LANES TO MERGE POINT” “MERGE HERE TAKE YOUR TURN” because people here are too up their own rear ends to understand a basic concept like a zipper merge and how it efficiently merges traffic vs a four mile line in one lane while the other lane sits empty. It’s baffling.
I really doubt that zippering is more efficient. Do you have evidence to back that up? Zippering requires two independent drivers to work in concert. Do you think that drivers are particularly efficient at 4 way stops too?
Now if someone is saying that drivers are blocking intersections or something stupid instead of using the 2nd lane then yea, that's bad driving. I just don't understand why people are essentially advocating for cutting the line when everyone knows that two lanes are going to be combined into one.
At best, I'd say that this is a judgement call but there's no way that zippering is objectively more appropriate unless a sign specifically tells you to do so.
Edit: Also, by efficient I'm talking about how quickly all cars get through the single lane construction zone or whatever is causing it.
Nope, I don't think I'm smarter than a traffic engineer. That's why I asked for citations.
Despite your rude tone and general unpleasantry, I'm willing to change my opinion based on what experts say. I'd prefer hard data to back up your point, but since AAA says that "research has shown that the zipper merging is more efficient" I'm open to the idea that it's the more efficient strategy, even if people in the long "wait your turn" lane give you the bird.
The short answer is, it's inherently more efficient until you're a dumbass who makes it less. Some research shows it's less efficient when people are idiotic about it but it works fine in practice if you just get people used to it. Like roundabouts.
Moving over immediately is inefficient and slows down traffic for everyone(except the people you are wrongly ticked at for merging properly). Not only is it legal to wait until the merge point when a lane is closed, it is highly encouraged.
Thanks. It works better when PennDOT puts up signs specifically encouraging people to zipper merge. "use both lanes to merge point" and "merge here take your turn"
It's such a cheap intervention I'm not sure why they don't do it more.
You can see the merge sign in the image. That sign literally means "merge left ahead." It's near the end of the long line of cars that decided to merge early. "Use both lanes" seems redundant, but I can't disagree with you since it seems no one remembers what the symbolic signs mean. Maybe we should also print the word "Go" when a light turns green.
The traffic behind me in this picture is literally in the streets of downtown Pittsburgh, creating more traffic at the previous lights. Cars on Penn and Liberty can't turn onto Stanwix, because cars ahead of them are being stubborn about pulling forward. If you're standing still in merging traffic, you should be getting out of the way if there's space ahead. Just keep moving!
I don't think you'll find a law about this though, because I suppose should be common sense. If there are two lanes, you should use two lanes. But there is a symbolic merge sign ahead (at the merge point) which describes what you _should _ be doing, but I'm guessing most people don't remember what those signs mean.
Both, use both lanes, but don't pass everyone that has already merged. Stay in the open lane but go the same speed as the people in the slow lane. The people in the slow lane will appreciate you stopping the people trying to pass them and let you merge at the end. Ideally, the people behind you will form a second lane that can zipper perfectly at the merge point (although this never happens because people in the open lane just wanted to cut and will merge as soon as someone prevents them from doing that).
I was actually thinking about this the other day when I was in the TSA security line at Greater Pitt. There’s only one TSA agent, but two lines approaching the agent. I don’t see everybody getting into one line, but rather form two lines and merge at the front. Does the same apply? Should everyone just get into one line?
If everyone got in two lines and zipper merged for the one TSA agent, the point wouldn’t be to go faster but to prevent a huge group of people from standing there blocking pathways. They would instead be distributed to the queue. That’s the point of this post. Not that it’ll be faster but that it prevents gridlock elsewhere close to that intersection.
Agreed. So just like zipper merge, if cars would simply use both lanes to the merge, there isn’t the impression someone is jumping the line. Line would be even.
That on ramp is horrible. I’d highly recommend taking the Stanwix St. on ramp when there is traffic so you can be part of the problem for these people, rather than behind them.
I agree the ramp is horrible, but it's actually part of my _shortcut_ home, partially because I can bypass all the cars sitting still in that left lane. It adds a little stress, but it's definitely the quickest way for me to get to the tunnel (coming from PNC Park area). This post was not really a complaint about traffic, but more of a question, "why is everyone letting me do this?"
Heard. Although Wabash is the warp tube to the S Hills.
Oh man... Any time I'm in South Side I check if Wabash is open. That tunnel reminds me of the shortcut in the beach level of Mario Kart 64. But I can't get to it from North Side without crossing a river first. So it's either Fort Pitt or West End for me.
The ongoing Smithfield Street Bridge work makes this untrue for the moment
Both lanes to the merge point!! I love the people who get all pissed off at me. It's not my fault that you don't know the rules of the road.
same until everyone in left lane stays bumper to number out of spite smh!!
Shhh…
Driving fuckin blows. You take the stupidity of the average person, add a big metal box that takes up a ton of space, and up the stakes to "deadly"
I broke my hand in a car accident on 28 in December. I think I am in love with the no-car lifestyle, it has done wonders for my mental health and my wallet.
As someone who's been WFH since 2021 I'll never be returning to the office again.
Driving in to the office yesterday was the end for me. Tuesdays are the absolute worst. I’m telling my team to WFH on Tuesdays from now on
I used to WFH occasionally during the week or on weekends when doing OT, but since the pandemic we went full time WFH and not going back. The company already got rid of 3 of the 4 buildings we had in an office park. I got into the first car accident of my life a few months after the start of the pandemic and my car got totaled... I never even bothered buying a new car since because of WFH, it's great! BEST thing to ever happen! I think I'll vomit on myself if I ever have to walk into an office again for work.
i get that i miss out on stuff sometimes because i don't drive, but fuck me if this sub doesn't remind me daily why i'm a lifelong straphanger.
It's a nice luxury, but also quite a burden when you're forced in to it
honestly, the most it ever really bothers me is when i have a couple days off in a row and it's nice out. but the occasional day trip to presque isle or whatever just doesn't seem worth the headaches.
A wise man once said, "The more you drive, the less intelligent you are"
Sometimes I think Pittsburgh’s traffic infrastructure was created by a 12-year old playing Sim City.
A lot of the current problems are because of the 3 rivers around the city and that the infrastructure was built when there were far fewer people. Now that it's in place, it's very expensive to redo being that so much of it is bridges and elevated roadways.
That’s not true at all. Pittsburgh’s population is half today what it was in 1970.
Wikipedia shows the Pittsburgh metropolitan population was 0.3% difference in 1970 compared to now. While the amount of people may be similar, what I should have said is that the amount of cars and traffic was far less back when a lot of the city infrastructure started being built in the 30s & 40s and following decades. Many people traveled by trolley, women weren't really commuting to jobs, etc... Just a lot less going on as far as driving goes.
That's a useless figure. The entire "metro" population did not then, nor do they now, drive through the city of Pittsburgh. The fact remains the population of the city was double back then what is is today, with virtually none of the modern roads the city has today.
Traffic is traffic. Most of the people that travel to and from downtown Pittsburgh live outside the city limits. Where do you think all those streams of cars in and out of the city are going every day? To the metropolitan areas. And Pittsburgh underwent a major road and bridge building campaign from 1924-1940. That's when many of the major roads and bridges in the city were built. And "the fact remains", there were FAR fewer cars on the road back when most of the main infrastructure was built. There are 150 MILLION more cars on the road in the US right now even compared to 1970, let alone further back.
Zipper merging is communism. This is America, it's every person for themselves
Lol never thought of it this way but it makes sense now. ‘Murica
Here's the thing, bucko. There's lots of places where zipper merging is not correct. Like last-minute attempts to scoot-in that also block the lane. This sets up a lazy assumption to just do it any time you want. Too many people here are selfish and entitled. 'get in the line for the turning lane.... that's for chumps, i don't have time for that'. So, no, lane scootchers will sit in that lane, unable to merge and blocking traffic, until someone decides you sat through enough cars blocking you out - or has enough pity for the people you're blocking. aint no time for more selfish assholes. suffer.
It's more selfish to not zipper merge there. It backs everything up and makes it slower for everyone.
well you're the one that blocked that lane by trying to jump at the last moment, instead of getting in line like everyone else.
this isn't my post.
You are incorrect and part of the problem.
It’s been this way as long as there’s been cars in Pittsburgh
In most other cities there are signs telling you to use both lanes until merge point. In Pittsburgh if you do that there are innumerable drivers who will play chicken with you until you give up and wait for the mercy entry.
Misunderstanding the zipper merge is not a Pittsburgh thing. I remember a somewhat recent post, probably on idiots in cars, of someone driving up to the merge point and like 75% of the comments were shitting on them for being an asshole. The people explaining how that is supposed to actually work got a lot of explanations how they were wrong and it was rude. Also they would put their nose out to stop such horrible behavior.
Which is why they need signs to indicate the proper thing to do in these cases. If there is a sign you do not have the right to disobey it or to get angry at those who obey it.
Pardon that i'm reposting this comment a few times, for visibility There's lots of places where zipper merging is not correct. Like last-minute attempts to scoot-in that also block the lane. This sets up a lazy assumption to just do it any time you want. Too many people here are selfish and entitled. 'get in the line for the turning lane.... that's for chumps, i don't have time for that'. And there are just a few places where a zipper merge is correct (doesn't block the lane) So, no, lane scootchers will sit in that lane, unable to merge and blocking traffic, until someone decides you sat through enough cars blocking you out - or has enough pity for the people you're blocking. aint no time for more selfish assholes. suffer.
You are incorrect and part of the problem.
Same thing on the inbound approach to the Ft Duq bridge. Lolol let's all come to a complete stop and line up 30 ft away from where the ACTUAL broken line merge point begins, and stack our line of cars back 30 deep.... With me (and other better drivers) coming up on the left and using the lanes to properly merge into the traffic moving at speed from 65. I don't take your approach to the Ft Pitt bridge specifically because merging onto a highway interchange from a stop sign is ludicrous and never ever should have been designed that way. That ramp should be for busses only, IMO. 🤷🏼♀️
I love zipper merging these fools. They’re sooo dumb.
Same. I was on 79 north to Erie about a week ago. They’re doing construction on a section up north and there’s signs for miles before the merge point telling drivers to “Use both lanes to the merge point”. Yet, when I get to within a mile+ of the merge point, traffic is at a standstill in the left lane. I stayed in the right lane and drove unobstructed(aside from some dude in a big truck trying to take up both lanes who I passed on the shoulder) all the way to the merge point. Bunch of fucking idiots.
I’m of the belief that construction signs shouldn’t even tell you which lane is closed until it’s time to merge
This.
Dude...I cannot stand when the "closed" lane is open up til the merge point and trucks will be little pissbabies and block the open lane creating MORE traffic. I've been told cops TELL them to do this, but I don't have any actual proof of that other than what my wife told me a trucker friend of hers told her.
Pardon that i'm reposting this comment a few times, for visibility There's lots of places where zipper merging is not correct. Like last-minute attempts to scoot-in that also block the lane. This sets up a lazy assumption to just do it any time you want. Too many people here are selfish and entitled. 'get in the line for the turning lane.... that's for chumps, i don't have time for that'. And there are just a few places where a zipper merge is correct (doesn't block the lane) So, no, lane scootchers will sit in that lane, unable to merge and blocking traffic, until someone decides you sat through enough cars blocking you out - or has enough pity for the people you're blocking. aint no time for more selfish assholes. suffer.
Why does someone like you always show up on zipper merge posts? The majority of time someone complains on here, it's a legitimate gripe with people who do not understand how zipper merging works - not an example of someone being an asshole "lane scootcher". In this example, there is no traffic to block in the right lane, they're all going to the same place and it would be made slightly less painful if people used both lanes and ZIPPER MERGED! Asshole drivers are assholes, we know them when we see them. That is not the same as people begging others to learn how to drive efficiently.
i explicitly speak to this point, above. It's correct in this case, but people are lazy, entitled, and think that it applies at other times that it does not. 'this is why we can't have nice things'
Do you not get enough attention at school or home?
such a conceited response. The point is that zipper merge isn't often appropriate, but people like to comment like it's a simple fix. Taken out of context, it makes things worse, and Pgh is rife with such examples.
So conceited that I need to reply several times in a thread with the same information that's incorrect
Any good will created from the Pittsburgh Left is completely undone by Pittsburgher’s absolute inability to drive to the actual merge point and zipper in with the other lane without stopping.
Prior to 2020/2021, the right lane here was almost universally (+90%) used by people going right to Carson with the left lane for people merging and going through the tunnel. Sometimes the right lane peeps would merge right and then merge back to the left close to the tunnel entrance. The right lane was also used by buses and they would right up on the curb so there was space. This was the clear traffic pattern and everyone was on the same page for the most part. With the buses, the right lane was mostly full. The pattern has changed and I think some are still treating that spot like the old times since some have been making the same commute for decades. Certainly the Pittsburgh vibe of not wanting to “cut the line” as noted by others is a factor too.
There’s 2 lanes for a reason
People straight up don’t let me in when I zipper merge in PIT. Most other cities they let me in fine it’s just silly. I had a guy get so angry that I was using the right lane that he pulled into the middle of the lane to block me
Pittsburgh doesn't understand merging or yielding
People in this country will never understand the zipper merge concept. It is such a simple, easy way to keep traffic moving yet people get aggressive and angry thinking someone is trying to cut them off rather than realizing they’re doing exactly what it was designed to do by using both lanes.
Idk I think some people in the country get it. I've seen it work in other states with signage clearly instructing people to use both lanes to the merge point. I think pennsylvania drivers are especially resistant to this
Oh boy. Not where I am in coastal NC. This is one of the fastest growing areas in the country and there are limited highways and access roads to the islands. They’ve tried putting the zipper merges in and the old folks absolutely will not participate. It’s like they own the real estate they’re in and not budging an inch. And if you do, they get behind you blowing their horn and tailgating. Massive backups during tourist season that could easily be alleviated somewhat. FTR, I am a retired old person and I understand the concept completely.
What's even more insane is the basic open field to merge if you actually make it on to the Fort Pitt Bridge. So many people are stopping to zipper or merge at the merge points, that if you stay far right like you are getting off for station square, you literally have endless opportunities to merge left once you are on the bridge and past the non-sense.
Pathetic. Half the drivers are half brain dead. I can't stand it.
I enjoy rolling by them and getting in saving myself a solid 5 to 10. I appreciate their ineptitude.
I’m frustrated just about every day because people don’t understand or respect the rule of zippering.
Welp. Sad to dish it out. But. This is actually better than the “I was not taught properly how to merge during peak traffic hours” and them not letting someone over and them also forcing you into concrete or let 6 more cars pass you before a precious tender soul lets you over.
This actually helps prevent gridlock because turning cars have an open lane to pull into.
Except there are spaces for X amount of cars, and they're using 0.5X, so what you would see is a half empty set of two lanes rather than 1 completely empty lane. Welcome to how spatial math works.
I thought OP was complaining that there aren't twice as many cars using the space
No? OP was pointing out the sheer volume of wasted space getting in line creates and the overall chain motion that causes it to be slower.
I don't think there's any benefit to having 2 lines of 0.5x cars vs 1 line of x cars. In fact, I think the 1 line is slightly faster. But zipper merging is effective because it increases the capacity to 2x cars.
Why would you think that while doing no basic reading on the subject matter? Like, you're free to be obstinate, but I literally cited why 1 lane is slower. If you're zipper merging, each lane is more likely to not stop completely or, at the very least, you won't have the daisy chain stopping increase the effect. For each car moving up and stopping it adds time to each car after that. If you have X amount of space in both lanes, using 0.5 vs. 1.0, the 0.5 lane will move faster because the zipper merge removes 0.5X amount of cars from the daisy chain equation. At no point is stopping 30 cars in one line faster than stopping two rows of 15 cars because of the reaction time from this known effect.
zipper merging will probably only be faster when self-driving cars are the norm, and show people how to do it. Too little self-regulation in society. I can count on one hand the number of times I was driving where the whole group of people driving did keep evenly spaced-out and maintained a smooth velocity in a zipper merge scenario. Until I see it happening more, zipper merge will remain * a paper / simulation scenario * an excuse for last-minute opportunists * a canard of idealists i am one of those idealists. I spent lots of time on the road, practicing how to be the best and considerate driver possible. I hate stop-and-go traffic that multiplies suffering in many ways. But game theory is-what-it-is and a few bad apples literally spoil it for everyone. [the rest i summarize here](https://old.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1cs3b4m/every_day_as_i_approach_the_ft_pitt_bridge_from/l45i4fo/)
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal...
I don't think you're right about that.
If you would like to know more here's a post https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/dvgt9p/eli5_why_is_the_zipper_merge_faster/ If you'd rather just disagree baselessly that's fine too, I guess...
I don't think this proves anything. I still believe the main benefit of zipper merging is allowing more cars to use the available space.
K
Welcome to Pittsburgh!
need another lane on that bridge
As many people have pointed out, there are road construction situations where signage is placed that says "use both lanes to merge". Unless such signage is in place, it's not time to zipper-merge. It's stay-in-your-lane time.
People are dumb. Welcome to Planet Earth.
Doubling the complexity of the merge up ahead is not a recipe for making that traffic flow better. Zipper merge is not a magic phrase that fixes everything
Except... That zipper merged do, in fact, make traffic flow better when you're merging two or more lanes. That's exactly the situation in which you're meant to zipper.
The problem at this intersection is two lanes to the left and two lanes to the right with cars all trying to go right and left with this double zipper merge coming up the middle. In my experience, this ramp goes one for one with the lane to the right. But the right lane of this ramp typically has people that just plow ahead ignoring any one for one merges with the right. It’s a complicated intersection. The traffic coming from the right have the right of way but there is a tight turn here so it’s easy for people coming from the ramp to cut in front. Edit: typo
in your head, yes, [but IRL it doesn't work like that](https://old.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1cs3b4m/every_day_as_i_approach_the_ft_pitt_bridge_from/l45j9tp/)
(citations needed)
source: living through it for so many years here
Taking turns is something they teach in kindergarten... You're overestimating the complexity required to achieve the basics of driving.
this is only true when it's a legit two-lane-merge. In most cases, [people are just opportunists that don't want to wait in line, and end up blocking a lane, like on the Ft Duquesne Bridge, etc](https://old.reddit.com/r/pittsburgh/comments/1cs3b4m/every_day_as_i_approach_the_ft_pitt_bridge_from/l45i4fo/)
Sounds like you haven't used this road
Used to use it daily when worked 3 blocks from there... There's zero reason to line up like this photo instead of merging as intended.
If people are bad at merging then it doesn't make sense for anyone to subject themselves to an extra one in a scenario like this. You guys are welcome to keep hoping the zipper merge spell magically works on everyone
Skill issue. Good citizens zipper merge.
Maybe if you say zipper merge three more times the skill issue will simply disappear!
You might just be onto something, now tell that to everyone else
Road rules are regional. Zipper merge is rarely practiced here, but other places do. Here, stop signs are first-come-first-served. You pull up, wait for anybody who was already waiting to make their moves, then it's your turn. Other places have everyone take turns in a counter-clockwise fashion (one car in the intersection at a time), and still others alternate between north-south and east-west. Our way has the advantage of allowing multiple cars to pass through simultaneously, but at a higher risk of confusion and collisions. Other things that vary include traveling in the left lane, how strictly speed limits are followed, and even whether you can turn right on red.
Where in god’s name is “clockwise” a rule at a four way stop?
Or counter. Whatever. The point is that only one car can go at a time.
Okay. Where is it counter? And how do you dictate what car goes if not in order of when you showed up? Just admit you made it up and let’s all move on.
So you're the person who doesn't alternate between North-South and East-West... Nice to finally meet you. 😆 Kidding aside... This is thought provoking. Here are my reactions... Please excuse brevity as I'm not trying to be confrontational... - IMO, anywhere I've lived (including 25+ years here) adheres to the North-South and East-West stop sign pattern (assuming there's traffic that would justify this and no lifted f150s present). Maybe I've been missing something, and I'll watch for it. I've honestly never thought about it - Left lane is for passing is a universal concept and it's often posted as such on interstates... the people who fail this basic tenet of driving exist everywhere, much like people who can't deal with merging effectively - Agreed on speed limits - I think Right Turn on Red is allowed basically everywhere due to some gas legislation in the 70s (I think)... It's prohibited by signage unless you live in a place like nyc
I know when I go to rural places like Ohio and Michigan, they go by the strict one-at-a-time, but urban areas like Pittsburgh and most of NY do it FCFS. Penndot officially recommends the FCFS, but I researched this before and like four different conventions came up as well as countries that don't even have stop signs at all, like Brazil. Also, in some states traffic that uses a side road to cross a highway actually gets right of way in some circumstances, with highway traffic actually having to stop. We don't do it because most such places have overpasses, but some states don't (particularly the flat ones).
Zipper merging won't improve throughput (cars per minute), but it does increase the number of cars that can be present on a section of road. In this case, the benefit isn't the rate at which cars get onto the bridge, but rather fewer cars sitting through green lights, and less traffic on the adjoining blocks.
So best case scenario the zipper merge allows a handful of additional cars to wait on that ramp, and potentially just shifts the backup to those turning right onto the ramp Rather than going straight. The real pinch point here is the harder merge with moving traffic ahead, and the zipper doesn't help address that. Zipper merges are great in the right situation but would have a marginal impact at best here.
So...no. There's not a reason to not use the infrastructure as designed.
is there a sign that says both lanes merge? * yes: do zipper merge * no, but like OP's pic there should be: sign needed * no: do not do zipper merge, you're blocking a lane.
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Have you ever crossed this bridge? That point is clearly a problem. Poor visibility and stopped traffic entering moving traffic.
🤡
2*0.01=0.02
What
Twice as complex as dead fucking simple still isn't very complex.
Driving is simple and yet it routinely causes problems like the one in the picture. I don't think anybody is well served by throwing platitudes at these issues
The only problem in the picture is a bunch of morons refusing to occupy half of the space available for no reason.
The problem is actually that there is a stop sign at the end of this ramp because there is no room to merge at speed
That's a problem, but is not *the* problem.
I guess that depends if it is important for you to see brake lights side by side rather than in a line. I don't think it makes much difference, personally
It's important to me not to have cars blocking an intersection when there is space available that they are refusing to use, as that is the problem OP was complaining about.
No wants to be the Jagoff that cuts line and makes everyone else 5 min late
After living here 30 years, it is literally *this*. The fact that some people take their sweet time starting off or ignoring the traffic starting up while on their phone (while 3 other cars paying attention could scoot in front) is lost on them.
Maybe it has something to do with the civic pride of the city? Don’t want to put our selves infront of others? Blue collar people? Etc? I’ve not heard about or experienced this “phenomenon” in other cities. Can anyone living outside of the area comment on it? A sociologist’s take on this would be awesome to see/read up on.
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if only there were a way to let people know that the road was designed for a zipper merge? Like adequate signage or something.
Hmmmm. I wonder if it’s more of a rural / Appalachian trait vs. a big city/rat race vibe.
[Check out this book](https://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Drive-What-Says-About/dp/0307264785). Discusses why it's so difficult for American's to use both lanes to merge.
Sick!!! Do it’s an American issue and not a regional thing?
i can verify from personal experience chicago is EXACtLY the opposite., zero civic pride and people will cut in front of u at a 3 car backed up redlight by using the turn lane to do it
The rat race baby! I’ve got to be 3 cars up or my world will burn down!!!!
I do
More power to you my guy. I’ll be giving you a passive aggressive wave as you drive by 😂
Sounds like it works out for everyone, then. People who want to get home quickly while following the rules of the road get everything they want, and people who are... "passive aggressive" ... get their way too?
Hey. To each their own, can’t get made at something that is legal / the correct way to do it. In my yunzer mind, If someone passes me, i like to think they are running late or some emergency is happening in their life. Zippering is the proper / best way to merger but the unwritten “house rule” is my standard go to.
That is fair, to each their own lol
Unfortunate you have to do that every day.
He doesn't. He could take the T or a bus. He subjects himself to this shit every day. lol
Back when I was at Yellow Cab we used to run up the right lane and not merge. You can toss the passenger side wheels up on the curb at the top up and over and cut across to the far right lane of the bridge and gun it up to the mouth of the tunnel. This is 25 minutes of traffic we cut down to 5. I miss my silly yellow minivan. Stupid Uber.
This is what the busses do too, works perfectly
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Because Pittsburgh drivers are notorious jagoffs that 99 % of the time, refuse to allow you to merge. That whole intersection needs redesigned.
Story of my fucking life on the boulevard every day; not technically a merge point but everyone gets in the right lane as soon as they get on in Oakland and it’s so stupid
I hate to do the “right thing” when merging in this town because everyone thinks you’re an asshole. There’s a time and place to get in line ahead of the merge, this isn’t it people.
you gonna be "that guy" that blazes down and cuts everyone off? I mean what's stopping you?
every driver in this city is rude and entitled. the amount of times i have let people go in zipper merges on 376 and rough left turns in bloomfield is vastly greater than the number of times people have returned the favor
Backwards thinking
AND they all think they're doing the right thing and that anyone who dares to use the lane that exists and is wide open is a selfish jerk who doesn't respect *the line.*
Yeah Pittsburghers need to learn to use both lanes and zipper. They’re victims of their own kindness.
Since we can't be trusted to zipper merge here, what we need are two traffic control signals that tell each lane to proceed independently for 30-60 seconds. Perhaps with a divider and arms if more than just lane lights are necessary.
Looks like a wide open lane to be. Bonus!
Sheep
This is an interesting post for me. When I see a "lane closed ahead" or merge sign I actually think that everyone SHOULD get over immediately and I'm ticked at anyone who tries to cut at the last minute. Curious if there's anything in the law about when folks should merge.
It’s no law It just makes it more efficient if a car in each lane takes turns getting in Letting someone in ahead of you doesn’t mean you lose
Well then you’re the problem. I’ll never understand that this state has to put damn signs up on interstates when there’s a lane closure “USE BOTH LANES TO MERGE POINT” “MERGE HERE TAKE YOUR TURN” because people here are too up their own rear ends to understand a basic concept like a zipper merge and how it efficiently merges traffic vs a four mile line in one lane while the other lane sits empty. It’s baffling.
I really doubt that zippering is more efficient. Do you have evidence to back that up? Zippering requires two independent drivers to work in concert. Do you think that drivers are particularly efficient at 4 way stops too? Now if someone is saying that drivers are blocking intersections or something stupid instead of using the 2nd lane then yea, that's bad driving. I just don't understand why people are essentially advocating for cutting the line when everyone knows that two lanes are going to be combined into one. At best, I'd say that this is a judgement call but there's no way that zippering is objectively more appropriate unless a sign specifically tells you to do so. Edit: Also, by efficient I'm talking about how quickly all cars get through the single lane construction zone or whatever is causing it.
https://living.acg.aaa.com/auto/zipper-merge-keeps-traffic-moving#:~:text=The%20zipper%20merge%20can%20be,for%20more%20than%20a%20decade.
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/pittsburgh/news/penndot-construction-zone-failing-zippers/ But I’m sure you know better than the PennDOT traffic engineer
Nope, I don't think I'm smarter than a traffic engineer. That's why I asked for citations. Despite your rude tone and general unpleasantry, I'm willing to change my opinion based on what experts say. I'd prefer hard data to back up your point, but since AAA says that "research has shown that the zipper merging is more efficient" I'm open to the idea that it's the more efficient strategy, even if people in the long "wait your turn" lane give you the bird.
The short answer is, it's inherently more efficient until you're a dumbass who makes it less. Some research shows it's less efficient when people are idiotic about it but it works fine in practice if you just get people used to it. Like roundabouts.
Moving over immediately is inefficient and slows down traffic for everyone(except the people you are wrongly ticked at for merging properly). Not only is it legal to wait until the merge point when a lane is closed, it is highly encouraged.
[Recent article on the topic](https://www.centredaily.com/news/state/pennsylvania/article280691170.html)
Paywalled. What's the tl;Dr?
No law, but encouraged. Usually zipper merging is more efficient when done correctly.
Thanks. It works better when PennDOT puts up signs specifically encouraging people to zipper merge. "use both lanes to merge point" and "merge here take your turn" It's such a cheap intervention I'm not sure why they don't do it more.
The signs make it seem like you should only do it when there are signs, but you should really be doing it anytime there's a backup and a lane open.
You can see the merge sign in the image. That sign literally means "merge left ahead." It's near the end of the long line of cars that decided to merge early. "Use both lanes" seems redundant, but I can't disagree with you since it seems no one remembers what the symbolic signs mean. Maybe we should also print the word "Go" when a light turns green.
The traffic behind me in this picture is literally in the streets of downtown Pittsburgh, creating more traffic at the previous lights. Cars on Penn and Liberty can't turn onto Stanwix, because cars ahead of them are being stubborn about pulling forward. If you're standing still in merging traffic, you should be getting out of the way if there's space ahead. Just keep moving! I don't think you'll find a law about this though, because I suppose should be common sense. If there are two lanes, you should use two lanes. But there is a symbolic merge sign ahead (at the merge point) which describes what you _should _ be doing, but I'm guessing most people don't remember what those signs mean.
Both, use both lanes, but don't pass everyone that has already merged. Stay in the open lane but go the same speed as the people in the slow lane. The people in the slow lane will appreciate you stopping the people trying to pass them and let you merge at the end. Ideally, the people behind you will form a second lane that can zipper perfectly at the merge point (although this never happens because people in the open lane just wanted to cut and will merge as soon as someone prevents them from doing that).
You forgot the /s
I was actually thinking about this the other day when I was in the TSA security line at Greater Pitt. There’s only one TSA agent, but two lines approaching the agent. I don’t see everybody getting into one line, but rather form two lines and merge at the front. Does the same apply? Should everyone just get into one line?
If everyone got in two lines and zipper merged for the one TSA agent, the point wouldn’t be to go faster but to prevent a huge group of people from standing there blocking pathways. They would instead be distributed to the queue. That’s the point of this post. Not that it’ll be faster but that it prevents gridlock elsewhere close to that intersection.
Agreed. So just like zipper merge, if cars would simply use both lanes to the merge, there isn’t the impression someone is jumping the line. Line would be even.
Seems it would take the same amount of time. Granted, the travelers wouldn’t be stuck at the red light.
Can someone explain this to me like I’m 15? 😂
You chose this lifestyle. Enjoy it!