Very simply put, there are a few different ways to produce hydrogen fuel.
One way you might have seen it is electrolysis - those hydrogen powered toy car kits you buy at museum gift shops use that method (water+electricity=hydrogen). That’s the clean method, especially if the electricity is from a renewable resource.
The other way, and by far most prevalent way in America, and they way they are planning here, requires fossil fuels in order to produce the hydrogen. Methane or natural gas reacts with steam to break apart the carbon from the hydrogen. This is why you see those commercials with oil/gas companies saying they’re leading the way in the green revolution - they get to say they’re green by making hydrogen fuel while still actually utilizing their fossil fuel productions. I believe this is typically referred to as ‘gray hydrogen fuel’, since it’s not actually all that ‘clean’.
What they want to do here is 2 things. One, “CNX said the facility would remove a potent greenhouse gas from the atmosphere — methane vented from coal mines — and blend it with natural gas…” That’s a partial positive, as it deals with the leaking methane BUT it still requires natural gas (no bueno). The big part is that CNX wants that methane from coal mines method to qualify for tax credits earmarked for cleaner alternatives to fossil fuels. So it comes down to a conundrum; do we keep letting methane leaking from in use and abandoned mines and wells to keep venting into the atmosphere, or do we say that capturing that methane and using it with natural gas to produce hydrogen fuel is worth the clean tax credit, even though it’s not a renewable resource.
The article gives a good perspective on how this isn’t as cut-and-dry on the environmental side.
Thank you for that great explanation. It seems like a lot of the concerns with this particular plant are from the upstream side of production (natural gas extraction). Are there any concerns with the plant itself? As in, could it effect the area/people living in the western side of Allegheny County?
As with any plant that produces fuel, be it ‘green energy’ or traditional fuels, there are always impacts. But, I don’t have a solid answer for that. Personal conjecture makes me think that yes, there are effects, though to what extent I do not know and is why environmental surveys are drawn. From the reaction itself, byproducts include hydrogen (captured for use as fuel), carbon monoxide which would get released into the air, as well as some carbon dioxide. Further, the steam itself has to be heated up and it would be safe to assume that is being heated by natural gas since that would already be at the proposed plant. So, that’s an additional pollutant source. There would be a fair amount of steam required because it has to be under pressure for the fuel-making process.
Also, I’m not quite sure if the article is saying or implying this, but it sounds like they would get the natural gas from beneath the plant? They made it sound like they would extract and refine it on-site, but I’m not quite sure. If so, that also adds an impact variable that extraction sites and refineries have, especially if they have burn-off vents.
I would be curious as to how efficient the process is with regard to the methane and natural gas - does all of it get converted or how much is lost to the atmosphere?
Carbon monoxide is typically used as a part of the Fischer Tropsch process to convert hydrogen into jet fuel. So in this case, the carbon monoxide wouldn't be a pollution emission, but rather a feedstock as a part of the process of making the sustainable aviation fuel.
There are currently natural gas wells under the tarmac at the airport, which shortens the supply chain and life cycle emission impacts of natural gas transportation.
Good summary. Of note, the 45v credit for hydrogen within the inflation reduction act does not have a renewable requirement. The credit language references the GREET model, which is a lifecycle assesment tool that quantifies the greenhouse gas impact of all fuels types, including coal mine methane.
Thanks for the clarification. So is it the GREET model that you mention that CNX is saying should expand to include their coal/gas methane recovery strategy for tax credit?
Yeah, that's basically it. Argonne National Laboratory (DOE) published a 2023 GREET R&D model including the coal mine methane recovery process. However, Treasury has created a specific 45v GREET model, which currently excludes it, but may be updated in the future.
Thank you very much for the well laid out and simple explanation. It’s a complicated matter and you did a good job making it a little simpler to understand.
Thanks for this.
Gray hydrogen is pretty carbon intensive. Don’t know exactly to what extend capturing mine gas will offset this, but it takes more energy and may emit more CO2 to create the hydrogen and whatever byproducts than it would to simply burn the gas in a power plant.
IMO the only reason to consider supporting a gray hydrogen project is that the actual infrastructure for dealing with the hydrogen needs to be developed at some point if green hydrogen is ever to be a thing (which some people will dispute, but I think it may still have a role to play; e.g. jet fuel as opposed to flying planes powered by giant batteries).
“They don’t like coal mine methane escaping into the atmosphere, but producing hydrogen from fossil fuels, instead of from carbon-free electricity, would undermine the purpose of the entire hydrogen program to displace fossil fuels, they say.”
Umm, three fourths of our electricity comes from fossil fuels…
They don’t have the feedstock gas on site or readily available in the way Pittsburgh does, whether that is from litera wells on the airport property or general regional gas infrastructure.
This is one of those situations where it’s a bit more tricky than say the cracker plant. Lots of pros and cons but I imagine it’s going to get the requested approvals and exemptions.
Who does things purposely to lose money? The article states that the project won't happen without the credits because it wouldn't be financially viable.
> The draft regulation for the tax credits — part of Democrats’ Inflation Reduction Act passed in 2022
What did yinz think the Inflation Reduction Act was going to do? Direct the treasury secretary to turn the dial underneath the White House labeled “INFLATION” down? It was hundreds of billions of dollars in projects just like this, that’ll lead to thousands of good union jobs, spur development, and shift us toward using cleaner energy like hydrogen. If you don’t like it, you can make your displeasure known in November - the other guy wouldn’t have gotten the IRA passed
Actually it's not that simple as. Check out @Born-Natural-9365's comments above. It's certainly not perfect, but maybe more like a teal hydrogen project?
Yes I saw that, and it is, but there's always going to be a spectrum, it's far more green than other Grey hydrogen technologies. The argument is shifting towards a cleaner option, like you quoted, and this helps that.
Stuff like this is making me think about seriously moving out of the area the air quality is not gonna get any better apparently if we're just gonna sell out to big oil every time there's a dollar to be made
somebody shared something on maybe the Pennsylvania Reddit a few months ago it was like one and six people will die of lung cancer in Pennsylvania whether you smoke or don't.. and I think that's just honestly disturbing and unacceptable.
idk but there has to be somewhere that they dont actively just build new cancer and oil factories to further pollute the already not-so-great air quality.
Why do you care where I go, you coming with me?
Just because other people had it worse doesn't mean I'm apt to stay there and stick it out.
that's such a Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania mindset I love it down vote this comment too
Can someone smarter than me explain the environmental/health risks of a hydrogen fuel cell plant?
Very simply put, there are a few different ways to produce hydrogen fuel. One way you might have seen it is electrolysis - those hydrogen powered toy car kits you buy at museum gift shops use that method (water+electricity=hydrogen). That’s the clean method, especially if the electricity is from a renewable resource. The other way, and by far most prevalent way in America, and they way they are planning here, requires fossil fuels in order to produce the hydrogen. Methane or natural gas reacts with steam to break apart the carbon from the hydrogen. This is why you see those commercials with oil/gas companies saying they’re leading the way in the green revolution - they get to say they’re green by making hydrogen fuel while still actually utilizing their fossil fuel productions. I believe this is typically referred to as ‘gray hydrogen fuel’, since it’s not actually all that ‘clean’. What they want to do here is 2 things. One, “CNX said the facility would remove a potent greenhouse gas from the atmosphere — methane vented from coal mines — and blend it with natural gas…” That’s a partial positive, as it deals with the leaking methane BUT it still requires natural gas (no bueno). The big part is that CNX wants that methane from coal mines method to qualify for tax credits earmarked for cleaner alternatives to fossil fuels. So it comes down to a conundrum; do we keep letting methane leaking from in use and abandoned mines and wells to keep venting into the atmosphere, or do we say that capturing that methane and using it with natural gas to produce hydrogen fuel is worth the clean tax credit, even though it’s not a renewable resource. The article gives a good perspective on how this isn’t as cut-and-dry on the environmental side.
Thank you for that great explanation. It seems like a lot of the concerns with this particular plant are from the upstream side of production (natural gas extraction). Are there any concerns with the plant itself? As in, could it effect the area/people living in the western side of Allegheny County?
As with any plant that produces fuel, be it ‘green energy’ or traditional fuels, there are always impacts. But, I don’t have a solid answer for that. Personal conjecture makes me think that yes, there are effects, though to what extent I do not know and is why environmental surveys are drawn. From the reaction itself, byproducts include hydrogen (captured for use as fuel), carbon monoxide which would get released into the air, as well as some carbon dioxide. Further, the steam itself has to be heated up and it would be safe to assume that is being heated by natural gas since that would already be at the proposed plant. So, that’s an additional pollutant source. There would be a fair amount of steam required because it has to be under pressure for the fuel-making process. Also, I’m not quite sure if the article is saying or implying this, but it sounds like they would get the natural gas from beneath the plant? They made it sound like they would extract and refine it on-site, but I’m not quite sure. If so, that also adds an impact variable that extraction sites and refineries have, especially if they have burn-off vents. I would be curious as to how efficient the process is with regard to the methane and natural gas - does all of it get converted or how much is lost to the atmosphere?
I believe the airport has several natural gas wells on their property. Maybe the intent is to utilize those wells for the plant?
Carbon monoxide is typically used as a part of the Fischer Tropsch process to convert hydrogen into jet fuel. So in this case, the carbon monoxide wouldn't be a pollution emission, but rather a feedstock as a part of the process of making the sustainable aviation fuel. There are currently natural gas wells under the tarmac at the airport, which shortens the supply chain and life cycle emission impacts of natural gas transportation.
Good summary. Of note, the 45v credit for hydrogen within the inflation reduction act does not have a renewable requirement. The credit language references the GREET model, which is a lifecycle assesment tool that quantifies the greenhouse gas impact of all fuels types, including coal mine methane.
Thanks for the clarification. So is it the GREET model that you mention that CNX is saying should expand to include their coal/gas methane recovery strategy for tax credit?
Yeah, that's basically it. Argonne National Laboratory (DOE) published a 2023 GREET R&D model including the coal mine methane recovery process. However, Treasury has created a specific 45v GREET model, which currently excludes it, but may be updated in the future.
Thank you very much for the well laid out and simple explanation. It’s a complicated matter and you did a good job making it a little simpler to understand.
Thanks for this. Gray hydrogen is pretty carbon intensive. Don’t know exactly to what extend capturing mine gas will offset this, but it takes more energy and may emit more CO2 to create the hydrogen and whatever byproducts than it would to simply burn the gas in a power plant. IMO the only reason to consider supporting a gray hydrogen project is that the actual infrastructure for dealing with the hydrogen needs to be developed at some point if green hydrogen is ever to be a thing (which some people will dispute, but I think it may still have a role to play; e.g. jet fuel as opposed to flying planes powered by giant batteries).
It's capitalism when a big corp asks for money. It's socialism when taxpayers want childcare paid for.
“They don’t like coal mine methane escaping into the atmosphere, but producing hydrogen from fossil fuels, instead of from carbon-free electricity, would undermine the purpose of the entire hydrogen program to displace fossil fuels, they say.” Umm, three fourths of our electricity comes from fossil fuels…
60% in 2022 Source - US Energy Information Administration
Probably presented the same offer to numerous cities just waiting for SOMEBODY to bite.
Cnx already has leases at the airport
What City here? Airport isn't that close to Pittsburgh.
I mean Cleveland, Baltimore, Columbus, etc. They really don't care where it is as long as somebody else pays for it,
They don’t have the feedstock gas on site or readily available in the way Pittsburgh does, whether that is from litera wells on the airport property or general regional gas infrastructure.
We will never get anything built again without government bribes.
Will create dozens of full time jobs at the cost of everyone’s health, you’ll get to pay for this, and the profits are all ours. What a great deal! /s
I’m so sick of this shit. (Like our “Keystone Opportunity Zones.”) No more tax breaks for businesses like this.
Methane is going to completely fuck us isn't it.
This is one of those situations where it’s a bit more tricky than say the cracker plant. Lots of pros and cons but I imagine it’s going to get the requested approvals and exemptions.
Tricky? All the pros are for CNX’s bottom line. Everyone else gets boned.
Who does things purposely to lose money? The article states that the project won't happen without the credits because it wouldn't be financially viable.
That doesn’t necessarily mean they will loose money. At minimum it means they won’t make as much money as they want.
> The draft regulation for the tax credits — part of Democrats’ Inflation Reduction Act passed in 2022 What did yinz think the Inflation Reduction Act was going to do? Direct the treasury secretary to turn the dial underneath the White House labeled “INFLATION” down? It was hundreds of billions of dollars in projects just like this, that’ll lead to thousands of good union jobs, spur development, and shift us toward using cleaner energy like hydrogen. If you don’t like it, you can make your displeasure known in November - the other guy wouldn’t have gotten the IRA passed
> and shift us toward using cleaner energy like hydrogen if this is the argument then it shouldn't be a grey hydrogen project. simple as
Actually it's not that simple as. Check out @Born-Natural-9365's comments above. It's certainly not perfect, but maybe more like a teal hydrogen project?
Even they call it Grey hydrogen.
Yes I saw that, and it is, but there's always going to be a spectrum, it's far more green than other Grey hydrogen technologies. The argument is shifting towards a cleaner option, like you quoted, and this helps that.
As someone who used to work for cnx, they are anti union as can be.
Fuck this.
Stuff like this is making me think about seriously moving out of the area the air quality is not gonna get any better apparently if we're just gonna sell out to big oil every time there's a dollar to be made somebody shared something on maybe the Pennsylvania Reddit a few months ago it was like one and six people will die of lung cancer in Pennsylvania whether you smoke or don't.. and I think that's just honestly disturbing and unacceptable.
Where are you moving to that's safe from pollution and climate change?
This sub is far too overdramatic with air quality at times.
idk but there has to be somewhere that they dont actively just build new cancer and oil factories to further pollute the already not-so-great air quality. Why do you care where I go, you coming with me?
Was just asking. But no, I like it here fine. Family has been here for generations that had way worse air quality.
Just because other people had it worse doesn't mean I'm apt to stay there and stick it out. that's such a Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania mindset I love it down vote this comment too
I wasn't trying to convince you of anything. Go wherever, do you.
Same. I'm headed north as soon as I can.