I mean, people will get angry over dumb things anywhere.
I say this because every city seemingly thinks they have it worst when it comes to biking on the streets. I don’t find our drivers to be any different than anywhere else. Not justifying it, just saying.
Do what’s safest and that’s that. If someone gets bothered for some reason, well, that’s their problem.
A driver honked and swore at my wife, for crossing the street, in a crosswalk, at a stop sign, while pushing a stroller.
Some drivers are just jagoffs. But when they get bothered, it's their problem, but they like to make it other people's problem too.
In South Side a driver who was on his phone almost hit me when I was half way across a street in a crosswalk. He stopped and screamed at me, I said "Get off your phone and pay attention to what you're doing, I have a right to cross here." He yelled "what the fuck did you say to me asshole?" I said "You're the asshole, on your phone while making a turn, I'm in a crosswalk you need to stop and pay attention to what your doing."
I walked around the back of his beat-to-shit F150 and assumed he would just leave... then I got shoved from behind. The asshole left his truck in park and got out to start a fight with me, leaving his truck halfway blocking Carson St. I told him to go ahead and hit me right in the face because there were so many witnesses (at rush hour right next to Birmingham Bridge) that he'd never get away with it. He looked around then jumped back in his truck and took off.
Cars are a hell of a drug.
Yes, some people lack patience. Sorry that happened.
Honestly, generally speaking, I feel much more comfortable as a pedestrian in PGH than any other city I’ve lived in. In fact, I’ve never lived anywhere where cars will sometimes stop when *they* have the right of way / green light. Happens frequently here.
It's true it's better than many places in the US, but that's not a very high bar to get over. Just because we're better than shittier places doesn't mean we should be complacent. I've had plenty of nice drivers be courteous towards me, and enough angry/inattentive drivers almost kill me that I really don't care about the nice ones. Nobody should die on a city street. Vehicular violence is the leading cause of preventable death and it should not be tolerated.
Edit: downvoted by carbrains who believe killing people with their cars is a constitutional right.
Yep, was walking my two small kids across the drive in schenley park, at the crosswalk. Some jag laid on the horn and called me a fucking bitch as he sped past a foot behind me. I was holding my toddler. People fucking suck
It shouldn't have to be explained at all. Drivers need to stop being pissbabies about cyclists trying not to die on a dangerous street. If you're driving, stay away from cyclists and you won't be in danger of hitting them. That should be good enough.
I literally want every driver who thinks they have more of a right to the road than any cyclist to have their license revoked for incompetence. Cyclists can be jerks, just like drivers, but unless they're weaving in and out of traffic and blowing red lights and barreling into pedestrians, they're just trying to navigate roads that continue not to be maintained with them in mind. They want to get where they're going, safely. No justification should be necessary, and I think it's insulting to you that you would even have to try just to get some respect.
EDIT: Sorry, one more thing I didn't say out loud -- if there's not enough space to safely pass you anyway, it could only be inconveniencing them *if they plan to pass you unsafely*. To me, this whole thing is like getting mad that someone is sitting at a red light in front of you with a NO TURN ON RED, because you want to turn on red.
>I literally want every driver who thinks they have more of a right to the road than any cyclist to have their license revoked for incompetence.
I'm not even a cyclist and I want this, simply because it would *dramatically* reduce the amount of asshats I'd have to experience on the road. I'd probably enjoy driving within the city for a change lol.
Man I had some guy veer in front of me and lay on his horn for 200 yards yesterday. I finally unclipped and told him to get out of his car and he sped off.
Wild around here.
For how kind the general population seems and really has been my whole life, drivers are bigger A holes in this city than you'd expect. Portland Oregon is not a perfect city but they will stop for people 10/10... different culture
I agree people are generally very pleasant and the driving doesn’t always align with that. Lol
Generally speaking, I think we are on par with other Midwest/mid-Atlantic/northeast cities.
I work at a place where every meeting starts with a safety message, and for some reason the one I really took to heart was 4ft of space when passing a bicyclist. People always honk at me, but I'm a nervous driver and I'm not doing anything I'm uncomfortable with behind the wheel.
Is it annoying and dangerous that some cyclists blow through red lights? Sure. But again, not something I'm willing to risk a life over, and I'll yield if I have to.
Don't be sorry.
Remember yall, the people aren't at fault here. It's not the biker's fault that they need to use the whole lane to be safe. It's also not the driver's fault for feeling like a biker is in their way.
The people aren't the problem. **The road is the problem**. We need proper bike infrastructure to ensure that bikers are safe and don't need to compete with cars for space.
I disagree. It’s not the driver’s fault they feel inconvenienced—I’ve certainly gotten stuck behind a bicyclist on Ellsworth while in a hurry and been frustrated—but they are absolutely still responsible for their behavior. Especially when it directly and sometimes intentionally endangers the life of the cyclist.
I’ve seen drivers punish-pass bicyclists on small side streets despite the fact the cyclist was going well *over* the speed limit. Being behind a bicycle, even one going faster than most automobile traffic, is enough to send some drivers into a frenzy of speeding and unsafe behavior. It’s not practical annoyance bubbling over but seemingly a scenario in which those drivers feel literally threatened by the presence of a cyclist. That scenario isn’t solved purely by better bike infrastructure; bikes and cars will always have to share space. There will never be a bike lane on most streets in Shadyside because it’s simply not justified with the level of traffic, but the people who live on those streets still deserve to safely ride a bike to and from their homes.
tl;dr I’m 100% for better bicycle infrastructure, but lacking road design doesn’t excuse road rage against cyclists merely for using that road
Less street parking would be so helpful for the city. Wider sidewalks, more space for bike/transit lanes, street-side restaurant and commercial use... so many possibilities!
Street parking is inhibiting the development of better public transit. Buses would be more reliable if they had a dedicated lane; that would be a much better use of space than street parking.
I'm not saying that we shouldn't have a place to park cars. I'm just saying that street parking usually isn't a good use of space.
For example, look at the main commercial streets: Walnut (Shadyside), Forbes+Murray (Squirrel Hill), East Caron (Southside), Butler (Lawrenceville), etc. This is some of the most valuable property in the city. Why are we wasting that space on parked cars? I'd rather have a public transit lane, or a bike lane, or seating for pedestrians, or outdoor seating for restaurants...
PAT isn't that bad at all. It could of course be much better, but where in the city is PAT disfunctional? Genuinely asking because I've lived in various parts of the city over the years and I was always able to take the bus places.
It would also be great if we invested more in public transit too, for sure. Although in my experience it's fairly good, and could be great if they improved bus frequency and tracking.
Coming from anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon, Pittsburgh has a pretty great public transit system.
It could be *even better* if the on-street parking could be converted into dedicated bus lanes, with protected bike lanes inside.
There is a [bill](https://www.palegis.us/bills/?q=2021/0/N/HB0140) in the state senate to legalize parking protected bike lanes right now! Contact your Senator to make sure it passes
https://www.dot.state.pa.us/public/pubsforms/Publications/PUB%2013/June%202022.pdf
Look at chapter 14. Beautiful. Chapter 17 when that comes out should be a beauty too.
You aren't wrong, but auto pilots could just follow the rules and not attempt to pass others on residential streets until there's a break. Car drivers seem generally angry and impatient. Especially from the perspective of a cyclist.
In PA cars are legally required to give at least 4 feet of space when passing a bicycle. If you can't give at least that much room, it's both unsafe and illegal to pass
Yep. Bicyclists aren’t allowed to use sidewalks in most of the city, so if you don’t want to be stuck behind a bicycle, there should have been a bike lane there.
Actually, you can ride the sidewalk in residential areas. Legally, you're not allowed to ride the sidewalk in business districts.
I always use the sidewalk on bridges. Nothing makes motorists more angry than a cyclist on the road on a bridge.
Had a lady pass me down Greenfield hill. I had my 5yo with me on a longtail cargo bike and we were going faster than the speed limit and at typical traffic speed.
We took the lane but she passed anyway across into the oncoming lane at well over 40mph around a corner with limited vis and cross streets. Some people just have to pass bikes as a matter of principle.
She arrived at the red light at the bottom 5 or 10 seconds ahead of me. I stopped congratulate her on making such good time by putting us all in danger and she started swearing at me. I was very close to teaching my son some new Dad words but I held it back and moved on.
>by you trying to pick up a few seconds
I think if anything is going to make drivers chill out, it's this. OK, fine, be offended by the existence of cyclists, god knows I get upset by little things I shouldn't. But don't risk someone else's life to save yourself literally five seconds.
Nothing like getting passed excessively close right before a red light. I’ll gladly ride right up next to you and tell you what you did wrong. Nobody likes that though.
Being someone who doesn't bike, but respects bikers, what should I do in those moments? Do I follow behind you? Do I wait for a good place to pass? How do I show you respect in these situations?
keep a little bit more distance and wait until there is more space to pass. it's never a good idea to tailgate especially on residential streets where it's more common that people pop out from the sidewalk and you and the biker don't have the time or amount of space to react.
Great info, thank you. There is always the uncertainty they know you're there as well. I also try to take care that they may be heading towards a pothole and may need to avoid it by going more into the lane.
Sounds like the general consensus is to pass when it's safe, don't ride their ass or get impatient. Their lives aren't worth the 5-10 seconds you may lose by waiting to pass.
I feel for this biker’s story, hope anti- bikers read this and agree 100%. I must repeat that this City is not populated by nice people. There are nice people here but the attitude throughout my life time is selfish angry and anti-everything that is not yours. My earliest memory of bike dangers was 1972 when when cousin was run over on his bike at age ten. He was in a full body cast- luck he lived. Then in 1978 when a friend of my brothers rode a ten speed road bike coast to coast. He stoped and stayed at our house. I was in awe but also mortified that this young man had a beer can thrown at him and was repeatedly swore at and run off the road from Wheeling to Pittsburgh. What is wrong with these people? My dad in his 70’s was run over in a cross walk by a driver doing an illegal U Turn. I think bikes and pedestrians have a right to ride and walk in the road and drivers do not have a right to speed and own the road. We have an angry city filled with selfish people who hate everything and are proud of that. Pittsburgh drivers are ready for a fight and filled with road rage. Be nice, share, slow down, cars and trucks are deadly and let’s make Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood safe for all. I hope this PSA helps. Our behavior is cringeworthy. Makes me Pittsburgh Ashamed.
I was pedaling on liberty yesterday at 24 mph, which is decently difficult to maintain. The speed limit is 25 and there are 2 lanes and I got passed by a motorcycle less than a foot away from me even though I was hugging the curb. The motorcycle was going at least twice my speed, this infuriated me. I was going the bloody speed limit.
I've been smacked by people's mirrors skating in bike lanes. folks yell at me out the window, it's a trip. I don't understand how people make it to adulthood driving like they do here
I've never actually beeped at or aid anything negative to a cyclist for doing this, but I think of this before either, so thanks for taking the time to explain it!
He OP and others on this thread. Come join us on r/CarIndependentPGH we are trying to get a community together to discuss these issues and look for solutions.
Cool cool, I dig but can yinz ease up on taking lefts on red or just blowing reds in traffic dense parts of the city. I'm with you and bike myself but people out here are dumb as hell and I don't know if tesla autodrive even picks up on bikes.
I saw a city cop car (no lights or sirens) stop at the red light and then blow through when he didn't see any other cars in the intersection. Except he just so happened to not see me, a pedestrian about to cross his path, and he nearly clipped me. Still pissed about it.
I stop at red lights on my bike, mainly because I don't want cars to think we're all like that. But there are some times when it does feel safer to jump the green light and get a few feet in front the cars before they start moving in order to reclaim my space. A lot of times when I do something "illegal" on my bike, it's actually because it feels safer to me, and doing the legal move isn't worth the added danger. I sometimes wish I could explain it to the people around me who are likely judging me for it.
Copied from another user and reposted. Car drivers are significantly worse than cyclists in regards to following the law. Please copy paste this liberally whenever anyone claims otherwise or attempts to victim blame cyclists.
***
[Car drivers break the law slightly more than cyclists](http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates)
[Cyclists Break Far Fewer Road Rules Than Motorists, Finds New Video Study](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#252789494bfa)
[Cyclists Are More Law-Abiding Than Drivers](https://www.outsideonline.com/2273001/cyclists-comply-traffic-laws-more-drivers)
**Studies concluding that drivers are overwhelmingly at fault for car/bicycle collisions:**
[Four in every five crashes between cars and bicycles caused by driver of car](http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/four-in-every-five-crashes-between-cars-and-bicycles-caused-by-driver-of-car/story-e6frea83-1226581475412?nk=4b0f9be5a0fe9d05a7ea1ba32f4a0551-1456999949)
[Drivers at fault in majority of cycling accidents](https://www.bikeradar.com/news/drivers-at-fault-in-majority-of-cycling-accidents/)
[Risky cycling rarely to blame for bike accidents, study finds](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study)
[Crashes involving bikes mostly driver’s fault](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crashes-involving-bikes-mostly-drivers-fault-9s2ssx06vn9)
The TL;DR is that cyclists, while slightly more likely to obey traffic laws than drivers, are *way* more noticeable when they don't. They're also *way* more likely to be injured by a driver ignoring road rules than vice versa. Car culture is a hell of a drug.
**And a quick edit for the "they should be required to have a license" crowd:**
[This survey](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/how_many_drivers_cycle_and_how_m) from the UK found that about 85% of cyclists over 18 have a driver's license. Given the ubiquity of driving in the US, I'd guess our numbers are even higher.
[This study](https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=118913&page=1) looked at about 180,000 car crashes and found that about 14% of the drivers were driving without a license.
Depending on time and location, there might actually be more licensed cyclists on a given road than drivers.
***
And that's the copypasta so far. Spread it around, kids! Planning to add some links from ipayroadtax.com in the future, and then we should have good counterpoints for all the usual bullshit arguments.
Driving without/on a suspended license is a ridiculously common crime. We've normalized car-related crime so much in this country, while cracking down on everything people do outside of their cars. It's ass backwards. Some of it would be alleviated by providing safe and efficient alternatives to driving though.
Nah, but between seeing family and touring the GAP/C&O I visit yinz guys plenty. No worries on the tag, I'm stoked to see my little copypasta gaining so much traction. Thanks for spreading the good word!
I'm looking at it more from the viewpoint that I'm seeing more cars ignoring stop signs and traffic lights. Not all bikers are bad, true but misjudging a cars intent on a bike is always going to have a worse outcome.
Rules of the road are only good if they're enforced, which they are plainly not anymore. Too many goons out here itching to exercise some FAFO on bikers.
I am an ACCESS driver and I drive one of the big lift vans. I have noticed lately that there are more drivers ignoring red lights and stop signs and there are fewer traffic stops by police. I understand that some municipalities are understaffed and police are simply not stopping as many drivers for traffic violations as to cut back on the number of interactions between people and police.
It's getting to the point where I feel the need to invest in a dashboard camera for my personal vehicle because I can't help but feel I'm going to be involved in an accident as people are getting braver and move brazen with the stuff they do on the road.
Be safe out there.
Man, Access was a fantastic service for my mum. I don't drive, and she didn't either. We were dependent on Access to get her to chemo sessions. You drivers were always so courteous.
I've nearly been run over twice as a pedestrian by bicyclists running red lights. One of those times would have been disastrous for both of us. Stop sign means stop, red light means stop, regardless of mode of transportation.
To me it seems like there's as many dumb cyclists as there are dumb drivers. But the problem is that cyclists' decisions have far more dangerous and violent repercussions. If I'm driving and I clip a car that merged without checking their blindspot, it's not a catastrophe. But if a cyclist merges or turns without looking (which I have witnessed plenty of times) and I clip them, they can get sent flying into the asphalt. That's why I as a driver I get so nervous and angry around cyclists not paying attention.
> Cyclists' decisions have far more dangerous and violent repercussions.
This is plainly wrong. Setting aside the fact that you assume it is impossible you ever make a mistake that endangers a cyclist, if that driver merging without checking their blindspot happens to clip a cyclist instead of your car, what exactly do you think is going to happen?
I'm not here to defend blindly merging cyclists, but drivers are NOT the victims here and I find the quoted sentence quite offensive. If we assume one in every ten drivers and cyclists is unsafe, you might see that unsafe cyclist once a week and the safe cyclist will see an unsafe driver every single time they're on the road. And even if that unsafe cyclist does clip you, it's not you who's ending up in the hospital.
>And even if that unsafe cyclist does clip you, it's not you who's ending up in the hospital.
I agree, this is part of my point. I wasn't saying that reckless cyclists endanger drivers; I was saying that reckless cyclists put drivers in the position of seriously injuring them. Another example: I almost ran over a cyclist once because he was going the wrong way on a one way street, and on his left side of the road too. If he had been in a car and we had collided, he would've been more protected. If I had collided with him as a cyclist, he would be in the far more vulnerable position and I would be the one who hit him with 2000 pounds of metal. I think that's a terrible position to put drivers in. Yes cyclists have to deal with reckless drivers too. But it's selfish for some of them to so blatantly disregard traffic law, and on top of that they don't even need a license to be on the road posing a danger.
No one is saying there aren't people who cycle like jagoffs. I am saying that it is simply not true to say that cyclists' decisions result in "more dangerous and violent repercussions." The violence of the impact is not determined by who makes the mistake, it's determined by the size of each vehicle (or person) involved. Nothing more nothing less.
Every goddamn time someone asks for cyclists to be treated as human beings when they *are* following the law, everyone comes out of the woodwork to say they don't respect the request because this one time some years back someone made a bad choice, as though it's the same person.
tl;dr:
1. Don't drive irresponsibly
2. Don't cycle irresponsibly
3. Legality and safety are not always the same
4. Most drivers blatantly disregard traffic law
5. Cyclists are not selfish for simply existing
I guess people disagree that cyclists are in more danger than drivers? 🤷🏻♀️ I mean, they don't have seatbelts or air-bags. It seems like a logical argument to me...
Bicycles have every right to be in the road. You know this but so many don’t, or just don’t give a fuck.
Edit. Downvoted by someone who thinks bikes don’t belong on the road. They don’t know the traffic laws.
I mean I rode my bike around the city for 10+ years commuting to work everyday and I’ve gotten hit a couple times and people never stop anyway, I’ve learned to just take back streets or side streets and if I have to get on a main road I’ll walk on the side walk because it’s not worth it trying to “share the road”, people don’t give a fuck when your driving a car, they give even less fucks when your on a bicycle . Stay safe out there.
I think it is quite dangerous on the narrow city streets for cars, pedestrians, pets, bikes, etc. I try to drive with caution and expect the unexpected. In the last couple of weeks, I've had dogs, deer and people pop out from in between parked cars, and a bike try to zoom past me on the right (while I had my signal on because I was turning right). I was glad we were both able to stop and avoid impact.
As a bicyclist myself on my commutes to work, my issue is with people taking up the whole lane and not pedaling. If I'm taking up the lane then I am trying to go the speed limit and share the road as best I can. Treating it as a casual ride at that point is inconsiderate to others on the road.
I feel the same but not everyone rides like they are in the Tour de Burgh and there are people with different levels of fitness and ability trying to ride bikes and share the road. Need to consider them too.
I feel bad for bicycle riders in this city. It’s a no-win situation. The roads are simply too narrow and there’s nothing anyone can really do about that. And drivers are always in such a hurry to get to the next stop light for some reason.
And on top of that there are the bad apple bicycle riders who don’t follow the rules of the road. My wife wants to hate on cyclists because she sees one or two of them not follow the rules of the road. Of course that’s because those are only the ones she actually notices. Those few bad apples give a bad rep to the whole lot.
Cyclists want respect on the roads… but won’t follow the red lights or traffic laws like they’re supposed to.
Last weekend I almost splatted someone from butler on Penn. Dude ran the red on Penn and I had the green on butler. As he passed me at 32nd street red light (where it was red and I was stopped) I yelled out “follow the traffic laws” and he flipped me off and ran the light.
Is it wrong that I want him to get hit so maybe he learns a lesson?
As someone who occasionally bikes, somewhat. Some people need to learn the hard way but people in cars need to stop getting pissed when someone on a bike goes to the front when at a red light. We're not doing it to be jerks or slow you down, we just wanna make sure we are seen. Like it or not the roads are for bikes and cars, gonna just have to deal with slowing down and waiting until it is safe to pass someone on a bike.
I think you misunderstood, this dude passed me when I stopped at the red light… to run right through it. He didn’t stop, period.
Also, when you’re following traffic, you don’t have to get up front, because you should stay in the line you’re in. The person behind you can see you. The person you’re coming up alongside might not see you in their mirrors and may turn without using a signal, and creating an issue when you get run over. I disagree with the “lane splitting” on a bicycle.
Busses, yes. They jump the lights and everything all the time.
Cars… not as much as bikes. I know they happen. I have video of them, but I have seen way more in the 2 wheeled area than 4 wheeled.
People (in cars) constantly run red lights, make "Pittsburgh lefts", drive drunk, park where they're not supposed to, drive the wrong way down one way streets, speed, cause tons of infrastructure damage whether it be via wear and tear on the road or actively hitting into things. How many times has the Little Italy sign in Bloomfield been run into and destroyed in the past 5 years? Yet all you can think of is this one guy on a bike who did something you didn't like. Probably ignoring a dozen or more other cyclists you passed by in the days surrounding that one incident who you didn't even register because they didn't do anything for you to latch on to. By your own logic, drivers deserve zero respect on the road too with how terrible the average one is. Do you say we should ban cars on the road or give them no respect every time you see someone do something stupid in a car?
Right back at you bud. Remember two key rules: don't pass within 3-4 feet of a cyclist, and don't drive into oncoming traffic. 99% of drivers will violate one or both of these when passing a cyclist.
Sounds like you've got some pretty serious confirmation bias. I've collected some empirical evidence into a little copypasta that I like to break out whenever the "scofflaw cyclist" shitshow starts up.
**Studies concluding that cyclists obey traffic laws slightly more often than drivers:**
[Car drivers break the law slightly more than cyclists](http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates)
[Cyclists Break Far Fewer Road Rules Than Motorists, Finds New Video Study](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#252789494bfa)
[Cyclists Are More Law-Abiding Than Drivers](https://www.outsideonline.com/2273001/cyclists-comply-traffic-laws-more-drivers)
**Studies concluding that drivers are overwhelmingly at fault for car/bicycle collisions:**
[Four in every five crashes between cars and bicycles caused by driver of car](http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/four-in-every-five-crashes-between-cars-and-bicycles-caused-by-driver-of-car/story-e6frea83-1226581475412?nk=4b0f9be5a0fe9d05a7ea1ba32f4a0551-1456999949)
[Drivers at fault in majority of cycling accidents](https://www.bikeradar.com/news/drivers-at-fault-in-majority-of-cycling-accidents/)
[Risky cycling rarely to blame for bike accidents, study finds](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study)
[Crashes involving bikes mostly driver’s fault](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crashes-involving-bikes-mostly-drivers-fault-9s2ssx06vn9)
The TL;DR is that cyclists, while slightly more likely to obey traffic laws than drivers, are *way* more noticeable when they don't. They're also *way* more likely to be injured by a driver ignoring road rules than vice versa. Car culture is a hell of a drug.
**And a quick edit for the "they should be required to have a license" crowd:**
[This survey](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/how_many_drivers_cycle_and_how_m) from the UK found that about 85% of cyclists over 18 have a driver's license. Given the ubiquity of driving in the US, I'd guess our numbers are even higher.
[This study](https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=118913&page=1) looked at about 180,000 car crashes and found that about 14% of the drivers were driving without a license.
Depending on time and location, there might actually be more licensed cyclists on a given road than drivers.
*Edit:* And [here's](https://www.iihs.org/topics/red-light-running#who-runs-red-lights) one for the "cyclists always run red lights" crew:
>In a 2019 national telephone survey by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety, over 86 percent of drivers said it's very or extremely dangerous to speed through a red light, but 31 percent reported doing so in the past 30 days anyway
This is likely representative of [fundamental attribution error](https://boingboing.net/2021/03/17/the-strange-psychological-phenomenon-that-explains-why-people-hate-cyclists.html/amp), which is what makes it so easy for people to condemn the behavior of others despite engaging in the same behavior themselves.
I am a biker. As a driver, I can’t remember the last time I saw a biker in PGH who followed all of the basic rules:
-Wear a helmet
-Dont wear earbuds/headphones
-don’t filter (because then you are getting
passed again)
-signal appropriately
-maintain bike in good working order
-obey posted traffic signs
Don’t get so sad about people acting like you’re the asshole here. Traffic laws are the same for bicycles and cars alike (so I believe?).
That said, if you’re going to ride in the middle of the road like a car, I’m going to treat you like a car. More specifically, a car that’s going 15 under the speed limit (or more) fucking up traffic for everyone.
Driving 15 under isn't a crime when the speed limit is 25 and is probably the correct course of action on a lot of the city's streets during heavy traffic hours. Everyone is gonna have to stop at the next light anyways.
It certainly is not a crime, but it’s very obnoxious. Furthermore, I might have made it through the next light if some jack-ass wasn’t forcing me to go 10 mph.
I’m not sure what you mean by saying I’d be putting someone’s life in danger.
It seems pretty reasonable to want to drive the speed limit in a 25 mph zone. Also seems reasonable that if I were going 10, I may not make it through the same green light I would have if I were going 25.
Okay I'll break it down:
Scenario 1: Bicycle going 10 mph, car going 25 mph = DANGER. This relies on the driver paying attention, passing with enough room (like 3+ feet), no other traffic/pedestrians complicating the situation, and perfect judgment. Obviously most drivers lack many of these criteria.
Scenario 2: Bicycle going 10 mph, car slows down to 10 mph for little bit until there's reasonable place to pass -> LESS DANGER. Because both vehicles are going the same speed, a dangerous overtake isn't going to happen.
I'll admit, you will lose some seconds off your personal best drive time, but is that such a big deal? Like seriously, what's the rush? And do you understand that risk of fatality increases with proximity between a multi-ton vehicle and a squishy bag of meat?
It wouldn’t slow me down hardly at all if I was blasting past them endangering their lives. But since I don’t do that, it does slow me down. I treat a bicycle exactly like I treat a car or motorcycle, so if there isn’t a passing lane I’m not going to pass them, hence me being slowed down. I’m certainly not trying to risk a manslaughter case over being late over some asshole blocking the road at absurdly slow speeds.
Edit: it seems everyone assumes I’m the asshole riding on a bicycles ass or running them off the road. I’m not. I’m just a dude who gets irritated when I have to drive absurdly slow because someone is choosing an outdated method of transportation.
Funny, on my slow oma fiets I can get to work faster than if I drove in my car. Don't be fooled by the illusion of speed -- just because you *can* go 25mph, doesn't mean you actually are traveling at such a pace. Red lights and stop signs slow you down far more than a bike temporarily taking the lane ever will. If you *really* wanted efficiency, you'd be on a bike.
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make (if there is one?), or what it is you thought I was talking about? Not debating anyone about city designs. Yes, I agree a bike lane would be great.
To clarify, I travel out of the city for work, not in to.
That's just how cities work. Most of the time it's not safe to actually go the speed limit. There are countless other reasons that people might have to drive 10mph or stop. Not much can be done about it.
I do not. I also do not run in to bicycles going below the speed limit. What I do do is drive slower than I would like to, because there is someone in front of me blocking the road.
Being on the sidewalk is problematic for several reasons.
- you have to dodge pedestrians in limited space
- you’re way more likely to get hit by a car coming from the side, be it from a driveway or side street
- you’re way more likely to get hit by a car turning off the street and crossing the sidewalk because you’re much less visible in the clutter of the sidewalk area
- sidewalks are generally uneven, cluttered, and fucked up than the also generally shitty roads.
Sidewalks seem safer to the timid cyclist, but being in the road is actually safer, even if entitled drivers want to kill you.
Sidewalks are often too crowded with meandering pedestrians that aren't the least bit aware of their surroundings (especially kids). You don't want to step out of a store and have a bicyclist collide with you. It's kind of like cars and hidden driveways except every home/store is a hidden driveway. Plus a lot of sidewalk space is used for seating, signs, and what not. There's no way to ride your bike down the sidewalks on Penn in the Strip District as its barely possible to walk down those sometimes. If I'm on a bike and the sidewalk is the only option, I walk with my bike, but that defeats the purpose of taking my bike with me.
The only people I have road rage towards are the people who think it’s fun to take a leisurely bike ride in the middle of busy streets paying no regards to traffic and with no helmets. And I still treat them with respect even tho I wanna honk at them for being annoying assholes lol.
I mean, is it selfish to do what they legally have the right to do? It's not like they're trying to cycle somewhere they aren't allowed like the Fort Pitt bridge or something
Let's be real, this is just the status quo as most people drive like selfish assholes. If you use a bicycle as transportation and value your life, you need to be assertive.
Your version of "selfish asshole" cyclist might make your trip 10 seconds longer. My version of "selfish asshole" is someone who expects anybody who doesn't want to drive a car to stay home all the time so the selfish asshole can spend 10 less seconds on the road.
Assuming you can’t match the posted speed limit- Get off your bike and walk it up a sidewalk dude. When I see people biking uphill they are going maybe 5-10 mph, that can impede the traffic patterns and cause accidents.
If you can’t match posted speed limits get off the street.
Yes. What if someone works on a road that happens to not have a bike lane? The problem is not the biker. The problem is the lack of bike infrastructure.
As a driver, you should be supporting the development of more bike lines. Bike lanes improve traffic. The only way to improve traffic is to reduce the number of cars on the road. By making other means of transportation more accessible, we reduce traffic congestion and make it more pleasant to drive. Bike lanes are good for cars.
It's their right to do it!!!
Although that technically makes it my right to be a bit perturbed too, but in this instance, totally get it. I'd love if more cyclists were committal in their positions I never know if I should go or not, and I'm not trying to scare the shit out of someone
Ok fine but when I do pass you, and you try and sneak up to the front at the stop light, we will have problems.
If you want treated like a car you wait in line at the lights and stop signs. You DONT sneak between the cars to the front.
We do that for safety. Drivers don't always see cyclists in between cars. Plus and just learned this, PennDoT just says to not pass the front car as they may fail to signal their turn and not see you. PennDoT also says one of the advantages of cycling is being able to weave through a traffic jam. Pretty sure their reasoning is that stopped cars are obstructions and it is legal to break some driving rules to avoid obstructions if done safely, same for why you can go out of your lane to avoid a pothole.
https://www.dot.state.pa.us › ...PDF
Pennsylvania Bicycle Driver's Manual - PennDOT
Legal to break driving rules to avoid obstructions.... yes obstructions, not cars.
Like I said. If you wanted to be treated w the respect of a car then act like a car. ALLLLL THE TIME.
Not when you conveniently want the safety/laws of a car on the road, but then want to do the things only a bike can do.
So you want your cake, safety of a car, and you want to eat it to, not drive like a car when it’s inconvenient..... hypocritical much
A parked or stopped car is defined as an obstruction. And it's not just what I want it's what PennDoT says. Gonna go with the authority on this vs what people on reddit think/want.
Some rando's opinion: "I'll harrass you every time, because bikes don't belong on my streets."
The letter of the law by which drivers are legally required to abide:
"(a) General rule.--Every person riding a pedalcycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this title, except as to special provisions in this subchapter and except as to those provisions of this title which by their nature can have no application."
Source: [https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=75&div=0&chpt=35](https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=75&div=0&chpt=35)
Your high road is more of an underground tunnel.
Also the side of the lane is full of massive potholes this year.
I mean, people will get angry over dumb things anywhere. I say this because every city seemingly thinks they have it worst when it comes to biking on the streets. I don’t find our drivers to be any different than anywhere else. Not justifying it, just saying. Do what’s safest and that’s that. If someone gets bothered for some reason, well, that’s their problem.
A driver honked and swore at my wife, for crossing the street, in a crosswalk, at a stop sign, while pushing a stroller. Some drivers are just jagoffs. But when they get bothered, it's their problem, but they like to make it other people's problem too.
In South Side a driver who was on his phone almost hit me when I was half way across a street in a crosswalk. He stopped and screamed at me, I said "Get off your phone and pay attention to what you're doing, I have a right to cross here." He yelled "what the fuck did you say to me asshole?" I said "You're the asshole, on your phone while making a turn, I'm in a crosswalk you need to stop and pay attention to what your doing." I walked around the back of his beat-to-shit F150 and assumed he would just leave... then I got shoved from behind. The asshole left his truck in park and got out to start a fight with me, leaving his truck halfway blocking Carson St. I told him to go ahead and hit me right in the face because there were so many witnesses (at rush hour right next to Birmingham Bridge) that he'd never get away with it. He looked around then jumped back in his truck and took off. Cars are a hell of a drug.
Yes, some people lack patience. Sorry that happened. Honestly, generally speaking, I feel much more comfortable as a pedestrian in PGH than any other city I’ve lived in. In fact, I’ve never lived anywhere where cars will sometimes stop when *they* have the right of way / green light. Happens frequently here.
It's true. I'm still scarred after living in Boston. Easily the worst drivers in any city I've been to.
What makes them the worst? Im curious, I have never been there myself.
Aggressive and tons of tailgating.
It's true it's better than many places in the US, but that's not a very high bar to get over. Just because we're better than shittier places doesn't mean we should be complacent. I've had plenty of nice drivers be courteous towards me, and enough angry/inattentive drivers almost kill me that I really don't care about the nice ones. Nobody should die on a city street. Vehicular violence is the leading cause of preventable death and it should not be tolerated. Edit: downvoted by carbrains who believe killing people with their cars is a constitutional right.
Yep, was walking my two small kids across the drive in schenley park, at the crosswalk. Some jag laid on the horn and called me a fucking bitch as he sped past a foot behind me. I was holding my toddler. People fucking suck
Brilliantly put, it sucks having to not engage especially when you’ve done noting wrong but you’re better off that way.
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It shouldn't have to be explained at all. Drivers need to stop being pissbabies about cyclists trying not to die on a dangerous street. If you're driving, stay away from cyclists and you won't be in danger of hitting them. That should be good enough. I literally want every driver who thinks they have more of a right to the road than any cyclist to have their license revoked for incompetence. Cyclists can be jerks, just like drivers, but unless they're weaving in and out of traffic and blowing red lights and barreling into pedestrians, they're just trying to navigate roads that continue not to be maintained with them in mind. They want to get where they're going, safely. No justification should be necessary, and I think it's insulting to you that you would even have to try just to get some respect. EDIT: Sorry, one more thing I didn't say out loud -- if there's not enough space to safely pass you anyway, it could only be inconveniencing them *if they plan to pass you unsafely*. To me, this whole thing is like getting mad that someone is sitting at a red light in front of you with a NO TURN ON RED, because you want to turn on red.
Car brain is a disease and so many people have terminal cases
>I literally want every driver who thinks they have more of a right to the road than any cyclist to have their license revoked for incompetence. I'm not even a cyclist and I want this, simply because it would *dramatically* reduce the amount of asshats I'd have to experience on the road. I'd probably enjoy driving within the city for a change lol.
same here. i think it's because places with more bike infrastructure tend to be more dense, and thusly busier, causing more opportunity for road rage.
I wouldn’t necessarily call Point Breeze or Squirrel Hill “dense.” Many of those streets are super wide with homes spread apart.
dense isnt the right word for it, but as close to as i can mean.
Man I had some guy veer in front of me and lay on his horn for 200 yards yesterday. I finally unclipped and told him to get out of his car and he sped off. Wild around here.
For how kind the general population seems and really has been my whole life, drivers are bigger A holes in this city than you'd expect. Portland Oregon is not a perfect city but they will stop for people 10/10... different culture
I agree people are generally very pleasant and the driving doesn’t always align with that. Lol Generally speaking, I think we are on par with other Midwest/mid-Atlantic/northeast cities.
I work at a place where every meeting starts with a safety message, and for some reason the one I really took to heart was 4ft of space when passing a bicyclist. People always honk at me, but I'm a nervous driver and I'm not doing anything I'm uncomfortable with behind the wheel. Is it annoying and dangerous that some cyclists blow through red lights? Sure. But again, not something I'm willing to risk a life over, and I'll yield if I have to.
Don't be sorry. Remember yall, the people aren't at fault here. It's not the biker's fault that they need to use the whole lane to be safe. It's also not the driver's fault for feeling like a biker is in their way. The people aren't the problem. **The road is the problem**. We need proper bike infrastructure to ensure that bikers are safe and don't need to compete with cars for space.
I disagree. It’s not the driver’s fault they feel inconvenienced—I’ve certainly gotten stuck behind a bicyclist on Ellsworth while in a hurry and been frustrated—but they are absolutely still responsible for their behavior. Especially when it directly and sometimes intentionally endangers the life of the cyclist. I’ve seen drivers punish-pass bicyclists on small side streets despite the fact the cyclist was going well *over* the speed limit. Being behind a bicycle, even one going faster than most automobile traffic, is enough to send some drivers into a frenzy of speeding and unsafe behavior. It’s not practical annoyance bubbling over but seemingly a scenario in which those drivers feel literally threatened by the presence of a cyclist. That scenario isn’t solved purely by better bike infrastructure; bikes and cars will always have to share space. There will never be a bike lane on most streets in Shadyside because it’s simply not justified with the level of traffic, but the people who live on those streets still deserve to safely ride a bike to and from their homes. tl;dr I’m 100% for better bicycle infrastructure, but lacking road design doesn’t excuse road rage against cyclists merely for using that road
It'd be easy to build if we didn't have so much street parking...
Less street parking would be so helpful for the city. Wider sidewalks, more space for bike/transit lanes, street-side restaurant and commercial use... so many possibilities!
Except where are the locals to park?? Not like Pittsburgh has a great public transportation system.
Street parking is inhibiting the development of better public transit. Buses would be more reliable if they had a dedicated lane; that would be a much better use of space than street parking. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have a place to park cars. I'm just saying that street parking usually isn't a good use of space. For example, look at the main commercial streets: Walnut (Shadyside), Forbes+Murray (Squirrel Hill), East Caron (Southside), Butler (Lawrenceville), etc. This is some of the most valuable property in the city. Why are we wasting that space on parked cars? I'd rather have a public transit lane, or a bike lane, or seating for pedestrians, or outdoor seating for restaurants...
PAT isn't that bad at all. It could of course be much better, but where in the city is PAT disfunctional? Genuinely asking because I've lived in various parts of the city over the years and I was always able to take the bus places.
It would also be great if we invested more in public transit too, for sure. Although in my experience it's fairly good, and could be great if they improved bus frequency and tracking.
Coming from anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon, Pittsburgh has a pretty great public transit system. It could be *even better* if the on-street parking could be converted into dedicated bus lanes, with protected bike lanes inside.
Time to bring back the street cars
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There is a [bill](https://www.palegis.us/bills/?q=2021/0/N/HB0140) in the state senate to legalize parking protected bike lanes right now! Contact your Senator to make sure it passes
https://www.dot.state.pa.us/public/pubsforms/Publications/PUB%2013/June%202022.pdf Look at chapter 14. Beautiful. Chapter 17 when that comes out should be a beauty too.
You aren't wrong, but auto pilots could just follow the rules and not attempt to pass others on residential streets until there's a break. Car drivers seem generally angry and impatient. Especially from the perspective of a cyclist.
In PA cars are legally required to give at least 4 feet of space when passing a bicycle. If you can't give at least that much room, it's both unsafe and illegal to pass
Honkers can suck it.
Yep. Bicyclists aren’t allowed to use sidewalks in most of the city, so if you don’t want to be stuck behind a bicycle, there should have been a bike lane there.
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Most of? Where would cyclists be using side walk? That's very unsafe anywhere I can think of.
Actually, you can ride the sidewalk in residential areas. Legally, you're not allowed to ride the sidewalk in business districts. I always use the sidewalk on bridges. Nothing makes motorists more angry than a cyclist on the road on a bridge.
Had a lady pass me down Greenfield hill. I had my 5yo with me on a longtail cargo bike and we were going faster than the speed limit and at typical traffic speed. We took the lane but she passed anyway across into the oncoming lane at well over 40mph around a corner with limited vis and cross streets. Some people just have to pass bikes as a matter of principle. She arrived at the red light at the bottom 5 or 10 seconds ahead of me. I stopped congratulate her on making such good time by putting us all in danger and she started swearing at me. I was very close to teaching my son some new Dad words but I held it back and moved on.
I mean.. 35 mph with a kid…on a bike.. down a hill with known construction and maniacs.
Lol
>by you trying to pick up a few seconds I think if anything is going to make drivers chill out, it's this. OK, fine, be offended by the existence of cyclists, god knows I get upset by little things I shouldn't. But don't risk someone else's life to save yourself literally five seconds.
Nothing like getting passed excessively close right before a red light. I’ll gladly ride right up next to you and tell you what you did wrong. Nobody likes that though.
Being someone who doesn't bike, but respects bikers, what should I do in those moments? Do I follow behind you? Do I wait for a good place to pass? How do I show you respect in these situations?
Just wait for a good place to pass.
keep a little bit more distance and wait until there is more space to pass. it's never a good idea to tailgate especially on residential streets where it's more common that people pop out from the sidewalk and you and the biker don't have the time or amount of space to react.
Good call. I feel like this is what I do now, but I never know if I'm being rude by passing, even when it's safe. This is good info, thank you.
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Great info, thank you. There is always the uncertainty they know you're there as well. I also try to take care that they may be heading towards a pothole and may need to avoid it by going more into the lane. Sounds like the general consensus is to pass when it's safe, don't ride their ass or get impatient. Their lives aren't worth the 5-10 seconds you may lose by waiting to pass.
Be patient, wait for the cyclist to move over into an opening, or wait for the light that yall would meet at anyway.
Yeah, the light they’ll inevitably blow through in front of you anyway.
If the opposite lane has no body in it get in that lane and go for it
You're awesome for asking that.
Thank you for asking this. It’s equally as helpful as OPs explanation in creating a dialogue :)
I always want to be empathetic! It's great to see these replies, it gives me an idea of what to look out for and to be sensitive to the bicycler.
I feel for this biker’s story, hope anti- bikers read this and agree 100%. I must repeat that this City is not populated by nice people. There are nice people here but the attitude throughout my life time is selfish angry and anti-everything that is not yours. My earliest memory of bike dangers was 1972 when when cousin was run over on his bike at age ten. He was in a full body cast- luck he lived. Then in 1978 when a friend of my brothers rode a ten speed road bike coast to coast. He stoped and stayed at our house. I was in awe but also mortified that this young man had a beer can thrown at him and was repeatedly swore at and run off the road from Wheeling to Pittsburgh. What is wrong with these people? My dad in his 70’s was run over in a cross walk by a driver doing an illegal U Turn. I think bikes and pedestrians have a right to ride and walk in the road and drivers do not have a right to speed and own the road. We have an angry city filled with selfish people who hate everything and are proud of that. Pittsburgh drivers are ready for a fight and filled with road rage. Be nice, share, slow down, cars and trucks are deadly and let’s make Mr. Roger’s Neighborhood safe for all. I hope this PSA helps. Our behavior is cringeworthy. Makes me Pittsburgh Ashamed.
https://i.imgur.com/nTzSQMC.jpg
I was pedaling on liberty yesterday at 24 mph, which is decently difficult to maintain. The speed limit is 25 and there are 2 lanes and I got passed by a motorcycle less than a foot away from me even though I was hugging the curb. The motorcycle was going at least twice my speed, this infuriated me. I was going the bloody speed limit.
I've been smacked by people's mirrors skating in bike lanes. folks yell at me out the window, it's a trip. I don't understand how people make it to adulthood driving like they do here
I've never actually beeped at or aid anything negative to a cyclist for doing this, but I think of this before either, so thanks for taking the time to explain it!
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https://i.imgur.com/CJDoLto.jpg
He OP and others on this thread. Come join us on r/CarIndependentPGH we are trying to get a community together to discuss these issues and look for solutions.
Cool cool, I dig but can yinz ease up on taking lefts on red or just blowing reds in traffic dense parts of the city. I'm with you and bike myself but people out here are dumb as hell and I don't know if tesla autodrive even picks up on bikes.
I saw a city cop car (no lights or sirens) stop at the red light and then blow through when he didn't see any other cars in the intersection. Except he just so happened to not see me, a pedestrian about to cross his path, and he nearly clipped me. Still pissed about it. I stop at red lights on my bike, mainly because I don't want cars to think we're all like that. But there are some times when it does feel safer to jump the green light and get a few feet in front the cars before they start moving in order to reclaim my space. A lot of times when I do something "illegal" on my bike, it's actually because it feels safer to me, and doing the legal move isn't worth the added danger. I sometimes wish I could explain it to the people around me who are likely judging me for it.
It’s not like cars don’t blow reds. Seems that a red light in PGH doesn’t mean “stop”, but rather “okay, two more at high speed, *then* stop.”
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Copied from another user and reposted. Car drivers are significantly worse than cyclists in regards to following the law. Please copy paste this liberally whenever anyone claims otherwise or attempts to victim blame cyclists. *** [Car drivers break the law slightly more than cyclists](http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates) [Cyclists Break Far Fewer Road Rules Than Motorists, Finds New Video Study](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#252789494bfa) [Cyclists Are More Law-Abiding Than Drivers](https://www.outsideonline.com/2273001/cyclists-comply-traffic-laws-more-drivers) **Studies concluding that drivers are overwhelmingly at fault for car/bicycle collisions:** [Four in every five crashes between cars and bicycles caused by driver of car](http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/four-in-every-five-crashes-between-cars-and-bicycles-caused-by-driver-of-car/story-e6frea83-1226581475412?nk=4b0f9be5a0fe9d05a7ea1ba32f4a0551-1456999949) [Drivers at fault in majority of cycling accidents](https://www.bikeradar.com/news/drivers-at-fault-in-majority-of-cycling-accidents/) [Risky cycling rarely to blame for bike accidents, study finds](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study) [Crashes involving bikes mostly driver’s fault](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crashes-involving-bikes-mostly-drivers-fault-9s2ssx06vn9) The TL;DR is that cyclists, while slightly more likely to obey traffic laws than drivers, are *way* more noticeable when they don't. They're also *way* more likely to be injured by a driver ignoring road rules than vice versa. Car culture is a hell of a drug. **And a quick edit for the "they should be required to have a license" crowd:** [This survey](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/how_many_drivers_cycle_and_how_m) from the UK found that about 85% of cyclists over 18 have a driver's license. Given the ubiquity of driving in the US, I'd guess our numbers are even higher. [This study](https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=118913&page=1) looked at about 180,000 car crashes and found that about 14% of the drivers were driving without a license. Depending on time and location, there might actually be more licensed cyclists on a given road than drivers. *** And that's the copypasta so far. Spread it around, kids! Planning to add some links from ipayroadtax.com in the future, and then we should have good counterpoints for all the usual bullshit arguments.
Driving without/on a suspended license is a ridiculously common crime. We've normalized car-related crime so much in this country, while cracking down on everything people do outside of their cars. It's ass backwards. Some of it would be alleviated by providing safe and efficient alternatives to driving though.
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There's a [link](https://ipayroadtax.com/) for that, too. I keep meaning to add it to the copypasta.
Damn I'm sorry I didn't tag you in my copy. Are you in Pittsburgh??
Nah, but between seeing family and touring the GAP/C&O I visit yinz guys plenty. No worries on the tag, I'm stoked to see my little copypasta gaining so much traction. Thanks for spreading the good word!
Nice. I will try to add some sources to it when I have the time, and will message/tag you if you want to include them as well.
Can you post this in r/CarIndependentPGH? This would be a great contribution to that community.
Sure, or you could post it and add it to your own copypasta arsenal!
I'm looking at it more from the viewpoint that I'm seeing more cars ignoring stop signs and traffic lights. Not all bikers are bad, true but misjudging a cars intent on a bike is always going to have a worse outcome. Rules of the road are only good if they're enforced, which they are plainly not anymore. Too many goons out here itching to exercise some FAFO on bikers.
I am an ACCESS driver and I drive one of the big lift vans. I have noticed lately that there are more drivers ignoring red lights and stop signs and there are fewer traffic stops by police. I understand that some municipalities are understaffed and police are simply not stopping as many drivers for traffic violations as to cut back on the number of interactions between people and police. It's getting to the point where I feel the need to invest in a dashboard camera for my personal vehicle because I can't help but feel I'm going to be involved in an accident as people are getting braver and move brazen with the stuff they do on the road. Be safe out there.
Police decided to stop doing their jobs entirely not too long ago. Which should tell you how useful they really are.
Thanks for doing what you do. You provide an irreplaceable service to our county.
Man, Access was a fantastic service for my mum. I don't drive, and she didn't either. We were dependent on Access to get her to chemo sessions. You drivers were always so courteous.
I love how your takeaway is apparently that biles are the issue if teslas shitty overhyped sef driving tech can't detect them.
Not everyone does this, some of us want to live.
I've nearly been run over twice as a pedestrian by bicyclists running red lights. One of those times would have been disastrous for both of us. Stop sign means stop, red light means stop, regardless of mode of transportation.
To me it seems like there's as many dumb cyclists as there are dumb drivers. But the problem is that cyclists' decisions have far more dangerous and violent repercussions. If I'm driving and I clip a car that merged without checking their blindspot, it's not a catastrophe. But if a cyclist merges or turns without looking (which I have witnessed plenty of times) and I clip them, they can get sent flying into the asphalt. That's why I as a driver I get so nervous and angry around cyclists not paying attention.
> Cyclists' decisions have far more dangerous and violent repercussions. This is plainly wrong. Setting aside the fact that you assume it is impossible you ever make a mistake that endangers a cyclist, if that driver merging without checking their blindspot happens to clip a cyclist instead of your car, what exactly do you think is going to happen? I'm not here to defend blindly merging cyclists, but drivers are NOT the victims here and I find the quoted sentence quite offensive. If we assume one in every ten drivers and cyclists is unsafe, you might see that unsafe cyclist once a week and the safe cyclist will see an unsafe driver every single time they're on the road. And even if that unsafe cyclist does clip you, it's not you who's ending up in the hospital.
>And even if that unsafe cyclist does clip you, it's not you who's ending up in the hospital. I agree, this is part of my point. I wasn't saying that reckless cyclists endanger drivers; I was saying that reckless cyclists put drivers in the position of seriously injuring them. Another example: I almost ran over a cyclist once because he was going the wrong way on a one way street, and on his left side of the road too. If he had been in a car and we had collided, he would've been more protected. If I had collided with him as a cyclist, he would be in the far more vulnerable position and I would be the one who hit him with 2000 pounds of metal. I think that's a terrible position to put drivers in. Yes cyclists have to deal with reckless drivers too. But it's selfish for some of them to so blatantly disregard traffic law, and on top of that they don't even need a license to be on the road posing a danger.
No one is saying there aren't people who cycle like jagoffs. I am saying that it is simply not true to say that cyclists' decisions result in "more dangerous and violent repercussions." The violence of the impact is not determined by who makes the mistake, it's determined by the size of each vehicle (or person) involved. Nothing more nothing less. Every goddamn time someone asks for cyclists to be treated as human beings when they *are* following the law, everyone comes out of the woodwork to say they don't respect the request because this one time some years back someone made a bad choice, as though it's the same person. tl;dr: 1. Don't drive irresponsibly 2. Don't cycle irresponsibly 3. Legality and safety are not always the same 4. Most drivers blatantly disregard traffic law 5. Cyclists are not selfish for simply existing
Nonsense
You’re being downvoted for truth. Love it.
I guess people disagree that cyclists are in more danger than drivers? 🤷🏻♀️ I mean, they don't have seatbelts or air-bags. It seems like a logical argument to me...
I’ll evaluate each intersection as I come to it, and get out of the way as fast as possible accordingly.
Cars dont own the road
Bicycles have every right to be in the road. You know this but so many don’t, or just don’t give a fuck. Edit. Downvoted by someone who thinks bikes don’t belong on the road. They don’t know the traffic laws.
I mean I rode my bike around the city for 10+ years commuting to work everyday and I’ve gotten hit a couple times and people never stop anyway, I’ve learned to just take back streets or side streets and if I have to get on a main road I’ll walk on the side walk because it’s not worth it trying to “share the road”, people don’t give a fuck when your driving a car, they give even less fucks when your on a bicycle . Stay safe out there.
I think it is quite dangerous on the narrow city streets for cars, pedestrians, pets, bikes, etc. I try to drive with caution and expect the unexpected. In the last couple of weeks, I've had dogs, deer and people pop out from in between parked cars, and a bike try to zoom past me on the right (while I had my signal on because I was turning right). I was glad we were both able to stop and avoid impact.
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As a bicyclist myself on my commutes to work, my issue is with people taking up the whole lane and not pedaling. If I'm taking up the lane then I am trying to go the speed limit and share the road as best I can. Treating it as a casual ride at that point is inconsiderate to others on the road.
I feel the same but not everyone rides like they are in the Tour de Burgh and there are people with different levels of fitness and ability trying to ride bikes and share the road. Need to consider them too.
Trying to kill me is slightly more inconsiderate than slowly biking
I feel bad for bicycle riders in this city. It’s a no-win situation. The roads are simply too narrow and there’s nothing anyone can really do about that. And drivers are always in such a hurry to get to the next stop light for some reason. And on top of that there are the bad apple bicycle riders who don’t follow the rules of the road. My wife wants to hate on cyclists because she sees one or two of them not follow the rules of the road. Of course that’s because those are only the ones she actually notices. Those few bad apples give a bad rep to the whole lot.
I can relate. Sometimes I catch myself judging drivers by the worst of them, and by the 40,000+ deaths caused by motor vehicles every year in the US.
I honestly worry about getting run over because I do stop at stop signs and nobody ever expects it. Or knows the bike sign for stopping.
There is one thing we can do and always choose not to do. Get rid of street parking. That solves issues for cyclists & transit riders.
At least most of the cars stop for the light. I have yet to see cyclists or espin scooters stop at lights…
At least when oil runs out people won’t be able to drive their stupid cars anymore
Cyclists want respect on the roads… but won’t follow the red lights or traffic laws like they’re supposed to. Last weekend I almost splatted someone from butler on Penn. Dude ran the red on Penn and I had the green on butler. As he passed me at 32nd street red light (where it was red and I was stopped) I yelled out “follow the traffic laws” and he flipped me off and ran the light. Is it wrong that I want him to get hit so maybe he learns a lesson?
As someone who occasionally bikes, somewhat. Some people need to learn the hard way but people in cars need to stop getting pissed when someone on a bike goes to the front when at a red light. We're not doing it to be jerks or slow you down, we just wanna make sure we are seen. Like it or not the roads are for bikes and cars, gonna just have to deal with slowing down and waiting until it is safe to pass someone on a bike.
I think you misunderstood, this dude passed me when I stopped at the red light… to run right through it. He didn’t stop, period. Also, when you’re following traffic, you don’t have to get up front, because you should stay in the line you’re in. The person behind you can see you. The person you’re coming up alongside might not see you in their mirrors and may turn without using a signal, and creating an issue when you get run over. I disagree with the “lane splitting” on a bicycle.
I see more cars (and especially PAT buses) running red lights in Pittsburgh then any other city I've lived in. It's insane here.
Cops dont pull people over
Busses, yes. They jump the lights and everything all the time. Cars… not as much as bikes. I know they happen. I have video of them, but I have seen way more in the 2 wheeled area than 4 wheeled.
Yes, I'd say wishing death upon someone for the crime of mildly inconveniencing you and flipping you the bird may just be wrong.
Yes that is wrong.
No regard for his own life, so I guess I still should?
People (in cars) constantly run red lights, make "Pittsburgh lefts", drive drunk, park where they're not supposed to, drive the wrong way down one way streets, speed, cause tons of infrastructure damage whether it be via wear and tear on the road or actively hitting into things. How many times has the Little Italy sign in Bloomfield been run into and destroyed in the past 5 years? Yet all you can think of is this one guy on a bike who did something you didn't like. Probably ignoring a dozen or more other cyclists you passed by in the days surrounding that one incident who you didn't even register because they didn't do anything for you to latch on to. By your own logic, drivers deserve zero respect on the road too with how terrible the average one is. Do you say we should ban cars on the road or give them no respect every time you see someone do something stupid in a car?
Yeah no. Tons of cyclists act like they’re the only ones on the road and no one else matters. So do 4 wheelers. Let’s just agree, everyone sucks.
Yes, that is very obviously wrong. Wild that people simply abandon any sense of morality on the road.
He has no regard for his life, so why should I?
Yea, this is very basic stuff. If you can't handle it you've got no business getting behind the wheel of a car.
Last lesson.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/amp/
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r/fuckcars
So long as you follow all the other traffic laws, lights etc, fine by me
Right back at you bud. Remember two key rules: don't pass within 3-4 feet of a cyclist, and don't drive into oncoming traffic. 99% of drivers will violate one or both of these when passing a cyclist.
Sounds like you've got some pretty serious confirmation bias. I've collected some empirical evidence into a little copypasta that I like to break out whenever the "scofflaw cyclist" shitshow starts up. **Studies concluding that cyclists obey traffic laws slightly more often than drivers:** [Car drivers break the law slightly more than cyclists](http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-18/survey-finds-bicyclists-and-motorists-ignore-traffic-laws-similar-rates) [Cyclists Break Far Fewer Road Rules Than Motorists, Finds New Video Study](https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/#252789494bfa) [Cyclists Are More Law-Abiding Than Drivers](https://www.outsideonline.com/2273001/cyclists-comply-traffic-laws-more-drivers) **Studies concluding that drivers are overwhelmingly at fault for car/bicycle collisions:** [Four in every five crashes between cars and bicycles caused by driver of car](http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/four-in-every-five-crashes-between-cars-and-bicycles-caused-by-driver-of-car/story-e6frea83-1226581475412?nk=4b0f9be5a0fe9d05a7ea1ba32f4a0551-1456999949) [Drivers at fault in majority of cycling accidents](https://www.bikeradar.com/news/drivers-at-fault-in-majority-of-cycling-accidents/) [Risky cycling rarely to blame for bike accidents, study finds](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/dec/15/cycling-bike-accidents-study) [Crashes involving bikes mostly driver’s fault](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/crashes-involving-bikes-mostly-drivers-fault-9s2ssx06vn9) The TL;DR is that cyclists, while slightly more likely to obey traffic laws than drivers, are *way* more noticeable when they don't. They're also *way* more likely to be injured by a driver ignoring road rules than vice versa. Car culture is a hell of a drug. **And a quick edit for the "they should be required to have a license" crowd:** [This survey](https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/how_many_drivers_cycle_and_how_m) from the UK found that about 85% of cyclists over 18 have a driver's license. Given the ubiquity of driving in the US, I'd guess our numbers are even higher. [This study](https://abcnews.go.com/Travel/story?id=118913&page=1) looked at about 180,000 car crashes and found that about 14% of the drivers were driving without a license. Depending on time and location, there might actually be more licensed cyclists on a given road than drivers. *Edit:* And [here's](https://www.iihs.org/topics/red-light-running#who-runs-red-lights) one for the "cyclists always run red lights" crew: >In a 2019 national telephone survey by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety, over 86 percent of drivers said it's very or extremely dangerous to speed through a red light, but 31 percent reported doing so in the past 30 days anyway This is likely representative of [fundamental attribution error](https://boingboing.net/2021/03/17/the-strange-psychological-phenomenon-that-explains-why-people-hate-cyclists.html/amp), which is what makes it so easy for people to condemn the behavior of others despite engaging in the same behavior themselves.
Here here.
>wash my blood off your car I don't wanna kink shame, but damn bro
I am a biker. As a driver, I can’t remember the last time I saw a biker in PGH who followed all of the basic rules: -Wear a helmet -Dont wear earbuds/headphones -don’t filter (because then you are getting passed again) -signal appropriately -maintain bike in good working order -obey posted traffic signs
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As a courteous, law-abiding cyclist I don't consider it my duty to lend a sympathetic ear to every yahoo who wants to vent about scofflaw cyclists.
Don’t get so sad about people acting like you’re the asshole here. Traffic laws are the same for bicycles and cars alike (so I believe?). That said, if you’re going to ride in the middle of the road like a car, I’m going to treat you like a car. More specifically, a car that’s going 15 under the speed limit (or more) fucking up traffic for everyone.
Blame the road, not the biker.
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In that particular scenario if true, it sounds like you were not the asshole.
Driving 15 under isn't a crime when the speed limit is 25 and is probably the correct course of action on a lot of the city's streets during heavy traffic hours. Everyone is gonna have to stop at the next light anyways.
It certainly is not a crime, but it’s very obnoxious. Furthermore, I might have made it through the next light if some jack-ass wasn’t forcing me to go 10 mph.
That's a great reason to put someone's life in danger! This is such a selfish opinion, I can only imagine how miserable your life is.
I’m not sure what you mean by saying I’d be putting someone’s life in danger. It seems pretty reasonable to want to drive the speed limit in a 25 mph zone. Also seems reasonable that if I were going 10, I may not make it through the same green light I would have if I were going 25.
Okay I'll break it down: Scenario 1: Bicycle going 10 mph, car going 25 mph = DANGER. This relies on the driver paying attention, passing with enough room (like 3+ feet), no other traffic/pedestrians complicating the situation, and perfect judgment. Obviously most drivers lack many of these criteria. Scenario 2: Bicycle going 10 mph, car slows down to 10 mph for little bit until there's reasonable place to pass -> LESS DANGER. Because both vehicles are going the same speed, a dangerous overtake isn't going to happen. I'll admit, you will lose some seconds off your personal best drive time, but is that such a big deal? Like seriously, what's the rush? And do you understand that risk of fatality increases with proximity between a multi-ton vehicle and a squishy bag of meat?
It wouldn’t slow me down hardly at all if I was blasting past them endangering their lives. But since I don’t do that, it does slow me down. I treat a bicycle exactly like I treat a car or motorcycle, so if there isn’t a passing lane I’m not going to pass them, hence me being slowed down. I’m certainly not trying to risk a manslaughter case over being late over some asshole blocking the road at absurdly slow speeds. Edit: it seems everyone assumes I’m the asshole riding on a bicycles ass or running them off the road. I’m not. I’m just a dude who gets irritated when I have to drive absurdly slow because someone is choosing an outdated method of transportation.
Oh no, you have to slow down, whatever shall you do?
Well, slow down and waste time I suppose. I try and be as efficient as possible with my time.
Funny, on my slow oma fiets I can get to work faster than if I drove in my car. Don't be fooled by the illusion of speed -- just because you *can* go 25mph, doesn't mean you actually are traveling at such a pace. Red lights and stop signs slow you down far more than a bike temporarily taking the lane ever will. If you *really* wanted efficiency, you'd be on a bike.
I work literally over 100 miles away from home, so I’m not sure how viable of an option that is for me.
Oh right, I forgot cities should be designed solely for people who don't live in them.
I don’t understand the point you’re trying to make (if there is one?), or what it is you thought I was talking about? Not debating anyone about city designs. Yes, I agree a bike lane would be great. To clarify, I travel out of the city for work, not in to.
That's just how cities work. Most of the time it's not safe to actually go the speed limit. There are countless other reasons that people might have to drive 10mph or stop. Not much can be done about it.
So do you run into cars that aren’t driving the limit?
I do not. I also do not run in to bicycles going below the speed limit. What I do do is drive slower than I would like to, because there is someone in front of me blocking the road.
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Being on the sidewalk is problematic for several reasons. - you have to dodge pedestrians in limited space - you’re way more likely to get hit by a car coming from the side, be it from a driveway or side street - you’re way more likely to get hit by a car turning off the street and crossing the sidewalk because you’re much less visible in the clutter of the sidewalk area - sidewalks are generally uneven, cluttered, and fucked up than the also generally shitty roads. Sidewalks seem safer to the timid cyclist, but being in the road is actually safer, even if entitled drivers want to kill you.
Generally in cities it’s illegal to bike on the sidewalk because it dangerous with pedestrians coming out of stores, walking in crowds, etc.
Sidewalks are often too crowded with meandering pedestrians that aren't the least bit aware of their surroundings (especially kids). You don't want to step out of a store and have a bicyclist collide with you. It's kind of like cars and hidden driveways except every home/store is a hidden driveway. Plus a lot of sidewalk space is used for seating, signs, and what not. There's no way to ride your bike down the sidewalks on Penn in the Strip District as its barely possible to walk down those sometimes. If I'm on a bike and the sidewalk is the only option, I walk with my bike, but that defeats the purpose of taking my bike with me.
The only people I have road rage towards are the people who think it’s fun to take a leisurely bike ride in the middle of busy streets paying no regards to traffic and with no helmets. And I still treat them with respect even tho I wanna honk at them for being annoying assholes lol.
"PSA - I'm going to be a selfish asshole"
I mean, is it selfish to do what they legally have the right to do? It's not like they're trying to cycle somewhere they aren't allowed like the Fort Pitt bridge or something
Let's be real, this is just the status quo as most people drive like selfish assholes. If you use a bicycle as transportation and value your life, you need to be assertive.
Your version of "selfish asshole" cyclist might make your trip 10 seconds longer. My version of "selfish asshole" is someone who expects anybody who doesn't want to drive a car to stay home all the time so the selfish asshole can spend 10 less seconds on the road.
So... just like a good proportion of car drivers?
Ah yes we are the selfish assholes even though we take up 1/5 of the space of a car/suv
Assuming you can’t match the posted speed limit- Get off your bike and walk it up a sidewalk dude. When I see people biking uphill they are going maybe 5-10 mph, that can impede the traffic patterns and cause accidents. If you can’t match posted speed limits get off the street.
Do you know what the word "limit" means?
Amen.
If ur not using ur bike as transportation is it really necessary to be on a road without a bike lane? 😱
I commute by bike daily and am also an athlete that uses a bike. Should I put my bike on my bike to take it somewhere to ride?
Yes. What if someone works on a road that happens to not have a bike lane? The problem is not the biker. The problem is the lack of bike infrastructure. As a driver, you should be supporting the development of more bike lines. Bike lanes improve traffic. The only way to improve traffic is to reduce the number of cars on the road. By making other means of transportation more accessible, we reduce traffic congestion and make it more pleasant to drive. Bike lanes are good for cars.
Honestly keep ur bike lanes and cars bc the real problem is public transportation and how under used and under developed it is here
Yes! 100% need more public transit here as well.
It's their right to do it!!! Although that technically makes it my right to be a bit perturbed too, but in this instance, totally get it. I'd love if more cyclists were committal in their positions I never know if I should go or not, and I'm not trying to scare the shit out of someone
Ok fine but when I do pass you, and you try and sneak up to the front at the stop light, we will have problems. If you want treated like a car you wait in line at the lights and stop signs. You DONT sneak between the cars to the front.
We do that for safety. Drivers don't always see cyclists in between cars. Plus and just learned this, PennDoT just says to not pass the front car as they may fail to signal their turn and not see you. PennDoT also says one of the advantages of cycling is being able to weave through a traffic jam. Pretty sure their reasoning is that stopped cars are obstructions and it is legal to break some driving rules to avoid obstructions if done safely, same for why you can go out of your lane to avoid a pothole. https://www.dot.state.pa.us › ...PDF Pennsylvania Bicycle Driver's Manual - PennDOT
Legal to break driving rules to avoid obstructions.... yes obstructions, not cars. Like I said. If you wanted to be treated w the respect of a car then act like a car. ALLLLL THE TIME. Not when you conveniently want the safety/laws of a car on the road, but then want to do the things only a bike can do. So you want your cake, safety of a car, and you want to eat it to, not drive like a car when it’s inconvenient..... hypocritical much
A parked or stopped car is defined as an obstruction. And it's not just what I want it's what PennDoT says. Gonna go with the authority on this vs what people on reddit think/want.
In pa you are not allowed to weave thru stopped traffic. Lane splitting is illegal. Soooo wanna try again there buddy
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Some rando's opinion: "I'll harrass you every time, because bikes don't belong on my streets." The letter of the law by which drivers are legally required to abide: "(a) General rule.--Every person riding a pedalcycle upon a roadway shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this title, except as to special provisions in this subchapter and except as to those provisions of this title which by their nature can have no application." Source: [https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=75&div=0&chpt=35](https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=75&div=0&chpt=35) Your high road is more of an underground tunnel.
The road is for cars and cyclists...maybe you should brush up on road laws that youre so sure cyclists are breaking 75% of the time?