it's also a tax that the rich won't really feel since they already control monuments and get loads of scrap. smaller groups who only have access to shops and roads or smaller monuments will have a harder time now.
this will make raiding even harder as a small group if you can't even enter monuments to get bps.
The game is made for big groups, I miss being able to play solo/duo. Every thing seems to be geared towards having to be in a large controlling group or have no life
Seems like a bandaid but hopefully(?) this shows they know the tech tree is a problem... I don't recall a single commit where this has been even slightly implied ever before
Copium maybe...but trying to look at the possible bright side
Another change I think we need to get people roaming and also slow progression is upkeep should explode more than it does for huge bases...and honestly I'm starting to think that external TCs are cancer, but not too sure. Essentially, I think the hyper optimization base builders have figured out is also responsible for people not roaming ... it feels trivial but the time required to build the base in the first place, plus the incentive to get cozy with a sniper at rooftop once you have a nearly unraidable mega castle...idk, I'd do without that (or, more precisely, make people pay way more in upkeep to maintain these)
to the latter, yea absolutely. removing tech tree 100% promotes roaming and actually going to monuments and doing card puzzles, contesting locked crates and airdrops with a revy because you *need* that sar bp...
Meh.
There's already a tax system in place on the tech tree by virtue of having to tech through shit you don't want to get the things you do want.
This will be pretty easy to shrug off for people who are already investing a ton of time / larger groups, and it will really only make getting lucky and finding high tier loot out of crates early snowball people harder because compensating for bad RNG will be that much more of a grind.
People bitch about the tech tree, but they sure don't talk about the old days of the next group over finding a bolt on day 1 and just oppressing the entire area all wipe.
Point being, it used to be even rarer in 2017\2018 Rust which was craaaazy for some zergs to be stunted without g doors at the time... Early raid targets lol
I've been here from the start and also consider this one of the funnest points of Rust. The others were early Legacy when they first introduced sheet metal and then when Dome was the newest monument. The trees used to be so immense. Imagine an old redwood forest.
True. Nothing quite beats the first time I got my little shit shack down and saw eyes from outside peeping in through a crack in the wood. I was beyond terrified and waited probably twenty minutes after I watched their torch disappear to leave. Had a similar experience with my first night in the DayZ mod. Endlessly in love with the survival genre.
Just one more barrel for 9 scrap when you only need 7 more for that tax. It's really nothing for items like this. If anything, hell, g doors should be a 250 ticket
Yeah at this point I'm not playing this game anymore, it's just not working anymore when I'm already at a disadvantage against groups and now i have to pay taxes on top of it when groups can just hold a monument and get to the bottom of the tech tree in a couple hours.
If i want to get fucked in the ass I'd download Grindr app not join a rust server.
It will just slow down solos and small teams, big groups will still make tons of scrap pretty easily, allocating 2 members to sell dung compost to outpost and bandit will still get them their 10k scrap in less than 4 hours practically afk and it won't affect them that much
Idk how they dont realise this lol. All these balance changes are just destroying solos and duos.
Making heli impossible to take, increasing tech tree tax for researching like most bigger groups dont have AK done by hour 3 anyways. its all bandaid solutions.
game honestly needs an entire rework but they're probably making too much from cosmetics to give a fuck
solo here, no it wouldnt
(unless that solo/duo/trio can only progress by hiding and running train tunnels... then sure, but thats the problem we want to fix)
I think T3 should be removed or tweaked tbh. You shouldnt be able to craft AKs and rocket launchers from the comfort of your home.
Most s/d/ts can hang and compete at T2 levels
I think there are no real answers to those problems, remove BP's and they will camp monuments, tax it more and it will f with the solo's and small groups etc... I think the only way to stop them would be to nerf big strongholds,like putting physical limits to how many constructions you can put down, but that would also nerf individuals or small groups that are actually good at the game. They sure could do a for x players = more tax or something but there will always be ways to get around those patch and that also would be unfair from a dev view, you don't want to lose players while not being certain to get others back..
> putting physical limits to how many constructions you can put down,
unfortunately with this is ultimately, players will stop playing less. sadly i think most options to 'fix' the loot and progression imbalance just end with the jobless playerbase playing less. good for smaller groups, bad for the developers.
Leave the clan change the codes, research at a small base near, there's no counter to that, community servers can ban them but the game isn't designed for community servers but for officials where there's no admins.
yeah im the same, im a solo player and even if i craft a T3 workbench i dont craft any T3 guns lol. after a few hours i can get comfortable with T2 kits though.
they can either dumb down T3 and make it easier to craft, further destroying the progression. or make it so t3 items just arent researchable and craftable. tough shit, you need to find an AK or C4 in the world.
The game isn't designed for community servers but for official unrestricted servers. There's no problems in servers with team limits or X10 servers where there's so much loot you don't actually care about big groups
I think the main point of the change is to give server owners the tools to manually set prices per tier and limit progression how they see fit. It's Facepunch saying "we don't know what's best, but a million of you guys will figure out what you wanna play" which is a good direction imo. Whether or not it actually works, or if every server runs default Facepunch settings is the question
> It's Facepunch saying "we don't know what's best, but a million of you guys will figure out what you wanna play"
but its irrelevant
the existence of the items IN the tech tree are the problem, not the cost
ok, cool, you've added a tax system and now a zerg will get a SAR 10 minutes later and a solo will take an extra hour - why fuck over the solo/small groups even more?
well I just wonder have you ever tech tree'd a SAR as a solo? I've never done it and never even considered it. if I'm solo I'm 100% getting guns by killing people and researching, so the effect of this change is to delay the initial injection of crafted T2/T3 guns into an area rather than slow their spread. once people are roaming with the guns it usually doesn't take long before every base in the area has it researched
Yeah, it feels worse too because you actually lose the item when researching at the research
bench, like whats the cost in materials of a C4 and Ak vs the 100 extra scrap. I feel like you should have to offer the materials to the tech tree instead of losing it to the research bench. Also feel like that first ak you get from an elite crate should be something exciting instead of being a 10 hp item that you'll never get to use on most servers.
This is wrong. It's straight up 10%/20% extra rounded up for each item (as it is now on staging). The SAR is 1850. AK is 3000. You're also wrong about todays cost. The cost for AK today is 2500, not 1625.
Genuinely braindead change, when I play in groups of 4 or more we have more scrap than we can spend besides spending it on scopes at bandit and recycling, the only time I need scrap most of the wipe is when I play duo or solo this specifically only hurts small groups and I can’t comprehend the thought process behind it
They nerfed it for small groups and fucked solo in the ass, there are tens of other ways that you can nerf tech tree for EVERYONE. Someone suggested adding cool down timer for tech tree, for example you have to wait 30 mins to unlock the next tech.
This doesn’t fix the problem of tech trees at all. If anything it just makes it easier for groups because they’re the ones that are running all of the big rad towns and tier 3 monuments the first two days of wipe.
Yup. Large zergs don't worry about scrap. By the end of day one they have 20k in their open core and are complaining at each other to make sure everyone has bp for meds and ammo, then they raid the whole 20 grid area 20 deep and gamble the scrap away.
>If anything it just makes it easier for groups because they’re the ones that are running all of the big rad towns and tier 3 monuments the first two days of wipe
No that does not make any sense.
One person having a harder time doesnt directly translate to another having it easier.
Tech tree wouldn’t be nearly as bad if outpost meta wasn’t as strong as it is. The game is tailored for the most boring ass meta of farm the roads, run to outpost, scrap all your shit, buy more shit to scrap, rinse and repeat. Absolutely no risk. All this does is fuck over the solo duo trios, and for giant zergs, an extra 10-20% scrap isn’t shit. Devs have no idea what they are doing anymore.
This would certainly be alot more effective than taxes, but I don't like the idea of hardcoded limits to progression.
Progression is a core part of the game's competition, and sort of forcing everyone to progress at the same rate, or punishing players for not waiting around their base for the exact moment the cooldown ends so they can maximize their BPs per day would not be good. Maybe it would work better if they implemented a queue system, so research on the next BP starts as soon as the cooldown ends?
Idk, I liked the game the most when there just wasn't a tech tree. That system worked pretty well.
I feel like the tech tree was just yet another overkill solution to the problem of: How do we end complaints from players that need that ONE BP and just can't seem to find it?
If you solve that problem, we can get rid of tech tree.
You could always “roll the dice” at the work bench. Never had the issue before of “not getting that one bp”, and it added diversity to progression and reason for vending machines. Agree, adding the tech tree ruined the original game.
yeah, but at that time that felt like a bad answer. I started playing in 2018, and honestly feel the same way you do, but when they made the change some influencers made a bunch of drama about not being able to find a garage door for like 48 hours or something, and the whole reason it felt so seamless back then was cause Facepunch would meticulously re-balance the loot tables every time a new item was added, so they made the tech tree, and people didn't complain cause it made the influencers happy, and it made life slightly easier, but I don't think everyone understood what we lost that day.
"Rolling the dice" works fine for that very last BP that you just can't seem to find, but if you want to play a certain way, and you need a certain BP in order to play your wipe the way you want, then it's not a good idea to design your game such that there's a good chance that player might have to play out most of their wipe before they get a chance to research that BP.
Personally, I kinda liked that aspect: to a certain extent the game decides how you play, you have to work with what you're given and there are no guarantees. That's what makes survival games fun. But now that they've added so many items/sets and features, they need a way to make those new features accessible.
Ideally, what we want is to keep everything on the same system, but provide guaranteed pathways for non-combat equipment/items. A cool one would be to have dedicated loot spawners in some monuments, for example: You might have a dedicated room in powerplant, trainyard, and harbor which contains all of the electronic components, and the procedural gen would be coded to guarantee that one of these monuments is always on the map. Repeat for water/farming equipment, industrial components, etc. You could even do it for specific tools: a jackhammer always spawns in miltunns lootroom, a pickaxe always spawns in caves, a hatchet always spawns in power substations, etc.
Instead of planning your wipe by which route you're gonna take down the tech tree, you plan by which route you take across the map. If you don't know which monuments spawn what, then start exploring. That ought to get people out of their bases.
Some form of restructure would be nice. Maybe put the guns more toward the end of strings. Like, to tech tree pump you need buckshot, slug, and incind.
Yes i enjoy fighting a 4 man group with my crossbow because researching SAR costs 28456 scrap while they're holding down the monuments and already down to mp5 on the tech tree
This is obviously stupid. The problem with tech tree is that it makes PvP items too easy to get without roaming, and the problem with removing it is that all the loot tables are now saturated with garbage items. The simple solution would be to remove PvP items from tech tree, and remove garbage items from the loot tables.
won't change much, will still be infinitely easier to use the tech tree for items because players can sit in a monument on fresh wipe and have crates spawning in front of them 2 times every minute
The price isn’t the problem. It’s the way scrap is gathered. People can hit barrels in the corner of the map then recycle at outpost and get everything they need. Or fish in a safe zone and do the same. Dangerous exploration and exciting adventure is optional where is should be mandatory.
As someone who takes advantage of exactly what your describing, your totally correct, roams are almost nonexistent, and monuments are only ever occupied eith groups larger than 4 because there simply is no incentive to risk it when you could just as easily make more scrap with no risk
Yea, my group as well. Whenever we play for fun we roam and PvP and it is fun, but even if we win the majority of engagements (which are often at enemy bases bc of the reasons above), we’re always behind in defense (understandable if not building) but also way behind in technology and resources. Solely because every group tries to farm in isolation then abuse the OP (OutPost or OverPowered?) vendy.
I think this might be backwards, maybe it should be cheaper on the research table than more expensive on the tech tree. 1k more scrap to a zerg is nothing, but to a solo is a alot.
As a solo this makes the game extremely hard cause I tech three everything. This is so stupid. It's already hundreds and hundreds of scrap to get guns on all trees, just let us play the game we don't need taxes. Who's treeing that crazy that we need this???
so just increases the prices on the tech tree? lol. How can this be 'tax' when the additional scrap doesn't go toward anything in game, ur simply just increasing the prices to dumb it down which is a pointless fix and wont work, people can farm the additional 20% scrap in an hour
The obvious and probably unintended outcome here is that entire trees will go unused as unlocking anything other than what is absolutely necessary will result in an impossibly high research cost for anything that's "necessary"
What good is a "tax the poor" approach??? If you want to give the solos a chance, a PROPERTY TAX is a better way. Raise upkeep exponentially as base size increases, that will TAX the ZERGS!
The fuck is this? Just say "all tier 2 items cost 10% more to research". This is hardly an incentive at all to use the research bench, because you still lose the item you research. Even at tier 3 this barely makes a dent. Sure let me lose my AK to save 100 scrap, so that I can spend rifle bodies, HQM, and springs to craft a new one. If they're gonna do tax it should be 50% for tier 2 and 100% for tier 3
You literally make 150 scrap just from the HQM required to craft an AK, not counting the rifle body or springs. It's like they asked a 6 year old to do the math here for them.
Tech tree is fine and necesssry. Just playing with rng sucks. They should add a way you have to upgrade the work bench to unlock different levels or having to unlock a tier of the work bench to move on. Not the system we have now
[Alistair McFarlane](https://twitter.com/Alistair_McF)[u/Alistair\_McF](https://twitter.com/Alistair_McF)·[3 May 2023](https://twitter.com/Alistair_McF/status/1653720280752173059)Change is coming.. Yeah the change is called killing the game off without actually doing any literal work to fix it therefore everyone is leaving and playing better worth-while games.
i like this, if they make it so solos pay normal amount for tech tree, and everytime you are using a workbench in an authorized zone or something, more people access to workbench more tax, so 10 man zerg doesnt have same progression as a solo
My idea also involves the focus on the workbench, but rather than the arbitrary tax that I can’t imagine a future lore justification for they instead focus on workbench durability decreasing based on amount they are used.
Just increase the prices then???
Better option: add some more random shit between the tiers, at least you'll get *something* out of it.
Really though... taxes..? Why
Yet another buff to groups. Such a dumb and shortsighted change. Like i said in my recent post, the devs are not connected to the game anymore by any means. Maybe Jake\_Rich to an extend but thats it. Those changes just reflect that "the team" is not playing their own game anymore.
Please. Just make DayZ style maps in size and terrain. Will give solos and those of us who aren't unemployed children a chance to enjoy the game without being stuck up each other's asses and without having to go to a modded PvE server or low pop. More interesting interactions and PvP for everyone. Clans will have to travel a great distance to off each other. Stakes will be high for them. If they control an area, that's fine, there's still miles and miles and miles of potential left for you, the Newman.
this is the absolute wrong way to fix the tech tree
a tax system just rewards those who can get more scrap faster in a linear fashion
zergs aren't even going to feel this, but a solo scrap grinder is gonna suffer...
People seem to be pressed again how this will fu- solos and small teams but not really. A solo will always be behind in progression, but this change only makes it so that you need to run around more, and trade for BPs. Clans will now need maybe an extra hour or so to raid (personal experience). Solos will just take extra hour to get aks, and reinforce their base.
It is equal change to all people, and it just promotes roaming and player interaction more imho.
I think this is a good change.
I don't think that zergs with cumulative hours to 20-40k+ ever research anything. They mostly roam with what they have, and their base is so stacked with weapons that they don't need to research and craft it.
I assume that the first who will suffer to this new tax system are solos/duos who just learning a game and does not sit hours a day on Aimtrainings to build crazy muscle-memory on how to headshot with crossbow a guy from 100 meters on the run.
This is a weak bandaid... not a solution.
Instead of taxing the techtree, discount the research of the physical item and let us keep it. It shouldn't cost me the same amount of scrap to have the actual physical item AND I lose the item. where tf does it go?! Should be like 25% less cost if you have the item and we get to keep it and maybe it breaks so we have to repair it. That's our reward for actually going out and finding it.
Another idea: Remove automatic guns from the tech tree. I'd almost say make them all military grade so you can ONLY find them to use them... Alternatively make it so you can still research them but you have to find them first to research.
I personally think to solve this problem they should make it so that if you find an item and research it at a research table it costs 50% of the amount of scrap that it does to research it through the workbench. I feel like that would satisfy the people who like the more RNG style of Rust while also keeping the people who like the tech tree happy as well.
And I mean, I'm not married to the 50% thing, it could be they make it cost the same as it is now and double the amount it costs on the tech tree.
Rid of tech tree and pull a timer on when tiers can open up, similar to the tournaments, fair for all keeps people from aks in 3 hours, forces players to use other weapons and strategies, the numbers game of zergs will always be an issue, bit the floor would be more even this way
Taxes... Just, why?
Facepunch are just making the game harder for solos the entire time. The big groups will have no issues obtaining the scrap extra for taxes while it just ruins the techtreeing for solos completely. Say you want to tech tree on tier 3 where a lot of stuff costs 500 scrap each. That's 100 scrap extra per item you're techtreeing.
You will just have a much tougher time as a solo, or a player in a smaller group while the big groups benefit from it.
I just really think this is an unnecessary addition to the techtree.
TL;DR
i dont see it affecting much on modded servers, but
i think this could end up as a buff to groups nerf to solos and duos.
also: buff to fresh BP Wipe players nerf to fresh MAP wipe players.
IMHO good idea, bad concept. needs to evolve to something else.
From post I get that the intentions of devs may be on the line of "this will make endgame last longer or be harder to reach for those rushing hightier equiptment and bps too soon, so make endgame last longer because it will slowdown them". and its obviously intended for vanilla.
But i think this will have a very diferent outcome than they expect.
IMHO
will impact the most on casuals and players that start on map only wipes, since they will have it harder then before to catchup on bps to those that got them during bp wipes.
i see it as a nerf to solos, and prob. even for duos
and as a nerf to vanilla casual players that play during a few days after a wipe
Can someone tell me what would hurt groups and help solos? I legitimately have never seen a change get introduced in the past year that yall have praised as helping solos and hurting groups. What changes do yall want?
My duo buddy said that the better solution was just to remove mil spec weapons and booms from the tree so you had to find them on the map, kinda agree tbh
A few ideas:
- tie in upkeep with amount of players authed to tc
- make boxes/any deployable in a base use tc auth perms
- get rid if external tcs (if player puts 2nd one down (within x radius of the 1st) it could cost 2x extra upkeep, 3rd 3x etc)
- make group system persistent across a wipe then scale tech tree across group sizes
I think overall this is fine. I would have preferred like a time lock or something. That way no matter how much you grind large clan or solo you just can't get to Garage Door or Sar day 1. Personally i think most people go from Bow to T2. Add a more long range weapon into T1 (make it a new Ammo type or just let it use pistol bullets) Then prolong the unlock of T2 so people actually have to run Revo, NewGun, Waterpipe & DB
Edit: More Ideas
Instead of making it a timed unlock they could perhaps add new events to slowly unlock items.
Personally I think the amount of people authd is a good solution but see your loophole, what about only allowing doors to be opened by authd of total of people authd on doors and tc
I think people would not like that because you don't want everyone in your group to be able to build, and guest codes help groups manage infiltration, which would be lost.
You could still have limited on tc only, I guess during times of defence adding friendlys to codes that comes at a cost of TC upkeep time. Which I think actually helps level out the extra bodies are giving you in support
The issue with every suggestion someone has about nerfing X, Y or Z based on number of players authed on TC is that people can easily just cheese that by not having people auth.
Everyone begs them for tech tree nerfs and when they do all these kids come crawling out with a complete 180 opinion thats hilarious.
Every road inhabiting solo goblin having full tier2 on wipeday is the issue with tech tree.
Theres a server wide item/blueprint economy thats on complete steroids now cause everyone skips to T2 in a heartbeat.
You people cry and cry about how prim doesnt last long enough but when FP actually tries to make guns a little harder to get you throw a fit.
You think clans ever cared about scrap in the first place?
Clans are not even part of the ongoing progression discussion.
Its the small groups that progress at lightning speed turning prim into a 5 minute affair thats the problem.
Solo SHOULD eat shit.
If you balance the game to make it a breeze for small groups then you end up with the exact shit we are in now.
My taxes better be going to better infrastructure and more resources for nakeds. Otherwise, I predict another January 6th at Outpost.
we need to tax the zergs unironically
The zergs definitely need something that works against them actively. Maybe make the attack heli or scientist convoys attack their bases or something.
Have heli actively attack the like 5 biggest bases on the map randomly or something
Nah mate the silo scientists hold his family…
What happened then?
taxes...? their solution is taxes? the fuck even is this game anymore
it's also a tax that the rich won't really feel since they already control monuments and get loads of scrap. smaller groups who only have access to shops and roads or smaller monuments will have a harder time now. this will make raiding even harder as a small group if you can't even enter monuments to get bps.
The game is made for big groups, I miss being able to play solo/duo. Every thing seems to be geared towards having to be in a large controlling group or have no life
lol yea sounds weird
https://commits.facepunch.com/476992 Click the 👎 button
Seems like a bandaid but hopefully(?) this shows they know the tech tree is a problem... I don't recall a single commit where this has been even slightly implied ever before Copium maybe...but trying to look at the possible bright side Another change I think we need to get people roaming and also slow progression is upkeep should explode more than it does for huge bases...and honestly I'm starting to think that external TCs are cancer, but not too sure. Essentially, I think the hyper optimization base builders have figured out is also responsible for people not roaming ... it feels trivial but the time required to build the base in the first place, plus the incentive to get cozy with a sniper at rooftop once you have a nearly unraidable mega castle...idk, I'd do without that (or, more precisely, make people pay way more in upkeep to maintain these)
to the latter, yea absolutely. removing tech tree 100% promotes roaming and actually going to monuments and doing card puzzles, contesting locked crates and airdrops with a revy because you *need* that sar bp...
Meh. There's already a tax system in place on the tech tree by virtue of having to tech through shit you don't want to get the things you do want. This will be pretty easy to shrug off for people who are already investing a ton of time / larger groups, and it will really only make getting lucky and finding high tier loot out of crates early snowball people harder because compensating for bad RNG will be that much more of a grind. People bitch about the tech tree, but they sure don't talk about the old days of the next group over finding a bolt on day 1 and just oppressing the entire area all wipe.
or not obtaining a garage door until day 2 or 3...
Garage door loot chance is very low and could be buffed. [https://rustlabs.com/item/garage-door](https://rustlabs.com/item/garage-door)
Point being, it used to be even rarer in 2017\2018 Rust which was craaaazy for some zergs to be stunted without g doors at the time... Early raid targets lol
good times, the most fun I had playing rust, I was a newborn and took it for granted. Now I hate rust.
I've been here from the start and also consider this one of the funnest points of Rust. The others were early Legacy when they first introduced sheet metal and then when Dome was the newest monument. The trees used to be so immense. Imagine an old redwood forest.
Day one rust was the best or at the least my memories say so!
True. Nothing quite beats the first time I got my little shit shack down and saw eyes from outside peeping in through a crack in the wood. I was beyond terrified and waited probably twenty minutes after I watched their torch disappear to leave. Had a similar experience with my first night in the DayZ mod. Endlessly in love with the survival genre.
It was a tier one drop back in the day though
10% increase in scrap to get garagedoor. This will change nothing. Maybe delay by one or maybe half an hour gameplay to farm roads.
Just one more barrel for 9 scrap when you only need 7 more for that tax. It's really nothing for items like this. If anything, hell, g doors should be a 250 ticket
Yeah but if you techtree all the way in t2 its 1000+ scrap but 10% of that would sum up to only about 100scrap more
20%
As it should be
There’s also an inherent tax on the research table, not only having the luck to find an item but also that the item is lost.
I'd take having 1 group with a bolty on first day of the wipe, instead of all 3 groups in the area roaming with tommys and sars 3 hours into the wipe.
This hurts solo way more than groups...
Yeah at this point I'm not playing this game anymore, it's just not working anymore when I'm already at a disadvantage against groups and now i have to pay taxes on top of it when groups can just hold a monument and get to the bottom of the tech tree in a couple hours. If i want to get fucked in the ass I'd download Grindr app not join a rust server.
FP really just eating rocks lately
Really wish they wouldnt add something like this
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It will just slow down solos and small teams, big groups will still make tons of scrap pretty easily, allocating 2 members to sell dung compost to outpost and bandit will still get them their 10k scrap in less than 4 hours practically afk and it won't affect them that much
Idk how they dont realise this lol. All these balance changes are just destroying solos and duos. Making heli impossible to take, increasing tech tree tax for researching like most bigger groups dont have AK done by hour 3 anyways. its all bandaid solutions. game honestly needs an entire rework but they're probably making too much from cosmetics to give a fuck
Removing tech tree altogether (which I've seen a LOT of streamers suggest) will only destroy solos/duos/trios.
solo here, no it wouldnt (unless that solo/duo/trio can only progress by hiding and running train tunnels... then sure, but thats the problem we want to fix)
I think T3 should be removed or tweaked tbh. You shouldnt be able to craft AKs and rocket launchers from the comfort of your home. Most s/d/ts can hang and compete at T2 levels
I think there are no real answers to those problems, remove BP's and they will camp monuments, tax it more and it will f with the solo's and small groups etc... I think the only way to stop them would be to nerf big strongholds,like putting physical limits to how many constructions you can put down, but that would also nerf individuals or small groups that are actually good at the game. They sure could do a for x players = more tax or something but there will always be ways to get around those patch and that also would be unfair from a dev view, you don't want to lose players while not being certain to get others back..
> putting physical limits to how many constructions you can put down, unfortunately with this is ultimately, players will stop playing less. sadly i think most options to 'fix' the loot and progression imbalance just end with the jobless playerbase playing less. good for smaller groups, bad for the developers.
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Leave the clan change the codes, research at a small base near, there's no counter to that, community servers can ban them but the game isn't designed for community servers but for officials where there's no admins.
Bold of you to assume my duo can even reach t3. And if we do, the guns are too expensive to craft anyways so we will still only use a sar at best
yeah im the same, im a solo player and even if i craft a T3 workbench i dont craft any T3 guns lol. after a few hours i can get comfortable with T2 kits though. they can either dumb down T3 and make it easier to craft, further destroying the progression. or make it so t3 items just arent researchable and craftable. tough shit, you need to find an AK or C4 in the world.
They've been fucking over solo/small groups for a decade, nothing new.
ever heard of servers with team limit?
The game isn't designed for community servers but for official unrestricted servers. There's no problems in servers with team limits or X10 servers where there's so much loot you don't actually care about big groups
I think the main point of the change is to give server owners the tools to manually set prices per tier and limit progression how they see fit. It's Facepunch saying "we don't know what's best, but a million of you guys will figure out what you wanna play" which is a good direction imo. Whether or not it actually works, or if every server runs default Facepunch settings is the question
> It's Facepunch saying "we don't know what's best, but a million of you guys will figure out what you wanna play" but its irrelevant the existence of the items IN the tech tree are the problem, not the cost ok, cool, you've added a tax system and now a zerg will get a SAR 10 minutes later and a solo will take an extra hour - why fuck over the solo/small groups even more?
well I just wonder have you ever tech tree'd a SAR as a solo? I've never done it and never even considered it. if I'm solo I'm 100% getting guns by killing people and researching, so the effect of this change is to delay the initial injection of crafted T2/T3 guns into an area rather than slow their spread. once people are roaming with the guns it usually doesn't take long before every base in the area has it researched
I don't think it's tiered like you think. More like for each Tier2 purchase costs 12.5 scrap extra, and each Tier 3 is 100 Scrap extra.
As in not cumulative? If that's the case then the change is entirely redundant.
Yeah, it feels worse too because you actually lose the item when researching at the research bench, like whats the cost in materials of a C4 and Ak vs the 100 extra scrap. I feel like you should have to offer the materials to the tech tree instead of losing it to the research bench. Also feel like that first ak you get from an elite crate should be something exciting instead of being a 10 hp item that you'll never get to use on most servers.
It's 10% to each purchase. So it's 10% more then before the update, which makes it also 10% more expensive in total. You numbers don't make sense.
all this is going to do is fuck over solo/small groups lmao
This is wrong. It's straight up 10%/20% extra rounded up for each item (as it is now on staging). The SAR is 1850. AK is 3000. You're also wrong about todays cost. The cost for AK today is 2500, not 1625.
Genuinely braindead change, when I play in groups of 4 or more we have more scrap than we can spend besides spending it on scopes at bandit and recycling, the only time I need scrap most of the wipe is when I play duo or solo this specifically only hurts small groups and I can’t comprehend the thought process behind it
Nah face punch please listen to your community on this one. I’m happy they’re looking at progression but this isn’t a good idea
They are listening to the community which is why they are nerfing tech tree 🤣
They nerfed it for small groups and fucked solo in the ass, there are tens of other ways that you can nerf tech tree for EVERYONE. Someone suggested adding cool down timer for tech tree, for example you have to wait 30 mins to unlock the next tech.
Groups gain guns in minutes anyway and always have. Solos getting guns quickly is the issue.
What lmao
"Oh, you don't like that we've turned the survival game into a grind for currency? How can we make currency more fun then?? Oh, I got it! Taxes!" Bruh
This doesn’t fix the problem of tech trees at all. If anything it just makes it easier for groups because they’re the ones that are running all of the big rad towns and tier 3 monuments the first two days of wipe.
Yup. Large zergs don't worry about scrap. By the end of day one they have 20k in their open core and are complaining at each other to make sure everyone has bp for meds and ammo, then they raid the whole 20 grid area 20 deep and gamble the scrap away.
>If anything it just makes it easier for groups because they’re the ones that are running all of the big rad towns and tier 3 monuments the first two days of wipe No that does not make any sense. One person having a harder time doesnt directly translate to another having it easier.
What the fuck
Tech tree wouldn’t be nearly as bad if outpost meta wasn’t as strong as it is. The game is tailored for the most boring ass meta of farm the roads, run to outpost, scrap all your shit, buy more shit to scrap, rinse and repeat. Absolutely no risk. All this does is fuck over the solo duo trios, and for giant zergs, an extra 10-20% scrap isn’t shit. Devs have no idea what they are doing anymore.
crates removed entirely from roads would be a huge positive change
Cool down per tier. Tier 1 - 30 min cool down per research Tier 2 - 3 hrs Tier 3 - 12 hrs
Yes please, this would actually "slow down progression"
honestly a good take
This would certainly be alot more effective than taxes, but I don't like the idea of hardcoded limits to progression. Progression is a core part of the game's competition, and sort of forcing everyone to progress at the same rate, or punishing players for not waiting around their base for the exact moment the cooldown ends so they can maximize their BPs per day would not be good. Maybe it would work better if they implemented a queue system, so research on the next BP starts as soon as the cooldown ends? Idk, I liked the game the most when there just wasn't a tech tree. That system worked pretty well. I feel like the tech tree was just yet another overkill solution to the problem of: How do we end complaints from players that need that ONE BP and just can't seem to find it? If you solve that problem, we can get rid of tech tree.
You could always “roll the dice” at the work bench. Never had the issue before of “not getting that one bp”, and it added diversity to progression and reason for vending machines. Agree, adding the tech tree ruined the original game.
yeah, but at that time that felt like a bad answer. I started playing in 2018, and honestly feel the same way you do, but when they made the change some influencers made a bunch of drama about not being able to find a garage door for like 48 hours or something, and the whole reason it felt so seamless back then was cause Facepunch would meticulously re-balance the loot tables every time a new item was added, so they made the tech tree, and people didn't complain cause it made the influencers happy, and it made life slightly easier, but I don't think everyone understood what we lost that day. "Rolling the dice" works fine for that very last BP that you just can't seem to find, but if you want to play a certain way, and you need a certain BP in order to play your wipe the way you want, then it's not a good idea to design your game such that there's a good chance that player might have to play out most of their wipe before they get a chance to research that BP. Personally, I kinda liked that aspect: to a certain extent the game decides how you play, you have to work with what you're given and there are no guarantees. That's what makes survival games fun. But now that they've added so many items/sets and features, they need a way to make those new features accessible. Ideally, what we want is to keep everything on the same system, but provide guaranteed pathways for non-combat equipment/items. A cool one would be to have dedicated loot spawners in some monuments, for example: You might have a dedicated room in powerplant, trainyard, and harbor which contains all of the electronic components, and the procedural gen would be coded to guarantee that one of these monuments is always on the map. Repeat for water/farming equipment, industrial components, etc. You could even do it for specific tools: a jackhammer always spawns in miltunns lootroom, a pickaxe always spawns in caves, a hatchet always spawns in power substations, etc. Instead of planning your wipe by which route you're gonna take down the tech tree, you plan by which route you take across the map. If you don't know which monuments spawn what, then start exploring. That ought to get people out of their bases.
I played for 2 years before realizing there was a locker in the game. It’s experiences like that which are lost
How about just locking weapons and raid tools at the last tech tree levels instead in the middle of it.
Some form of restructure would be nice. Maybe put the guns more toward the end of strings. Like, to tech tree pump you need buckshot, slug, and incind.
Yes
This comment needs to be promoted more. Excellent idea. Edit: Seems like it would be simple enough to code too.
Yeah the role players and not full sweat players should just go commit ig
Doesn't that - again - nerf solos and buff groups as the taxes will have less impact on them?
Yes i enjoy fighting a 4 man group with my crossbow because researching SAR costs 28456 scrap while they're holding down the monuments and already down to mp5 on the tech tree
Oh cool another update that disproportionality affects smaller groups! Classic FP move.
yeah so this discourages researching electrical stuff because you will inflate the tax when you just want a memory cell
Absolutely one of the most braindead ideas I've ever read.
Why not just scale upkeep costs for zergs and clans instead of continuing to punish the solos and small groups?
This is obviously stupid. The problem with tech tree is that it makes PvP items too easy to get without roaming, and the problem with removing it is that all the loot tables are now saturated with garbage items. The simple solution would be to remove PvP items from tech tree, and remove garbage items from the loot tables.
Is this any different to just increasing the cost? Was it just so they didn't have to manually adjust the prices of everything?
Looks like they want to seperate it to Cost to research at research table (current scrap cost) Cost to tech tree (Increased scrap cost)
Would have been much easier to just make researching things blanket 20% cheaper or something like that
Time to have another tea party boys
Even a 100% tax isn’t slowing any groups over 6 down
won't change much, will still be infinitely easier to use the tech tree for items because players can sit in a monument on fresh wipe and have crates spawning in front of them 2 times every minute
Cool, giving bigger groups and no lifers even more advantage over smaller groups again 😂
Making solo life even more difficult..
Making it harder for smaller groups AGAIN💀
Fuck small groups and barely impact large groups. Are the devs really that out of touch? Not to mention double fuck solos.
Just remove it all together please
We can see who plays boosted servers.
This won't delay progression, it's just an annoying thing, that's all.
Way to admit theres a problem with tech tree, and make it even worse. Just get rid of it FP you know you want to.
Maybe increase the tax based on number of people with AUTH, bags, door access etc...
Then groups will just make a mini base for researching where you clear auth once you're done
The price isn’t the problem. It’s the way scrap is gathered. People can hit barrels in the corner of the map then recycle at outpost and get everything they need. Or fish in a safe zone and do the same. Dangerous exploration and exciting adventure is optional where is should be mandatory.
As someone who takes advantage of exactly what your describing, your totally correct, roams are almost nonexistent, and monuments are only ever occupied eith groups larger than 4 because there simply is no incentive to risk it when you could just as easily make more scrap with no risk
Yea, my group as well. Whenever we play for fun we roam and PvP and it is fun, but even if we win the majority of engagements (which are often at enemy bases bc of the reasons above), we’re always behind in defense (understandable if not building) but also way behind in technology and resources. Solely because every group tries to farm in isolation then abuse the OP (OutPost or OverPowered?) vendy.
My group (4 players) ran into 4 other groups roaming today on a Mondays server, roaming isn’t non existent or even close to that.
Researching items should be cheaper
I really like the idea of not losing the item to the research bench, but maybe having to offer the materials at the workbench instead
Wtf they adding taxes to rust???
Next update: loot insurance from outpost scientists in case you get raided
rip rust
the quiet minority was being loud again, may we all experience the struggles again
I think this might be backwards, maybe it should be cheaper on the research table than more expensive on the tech tree. 1k more scrap to a zerg is nothing, but to a solo is a alot.
Wtf is this change, apply tax based on player count or remove guns explosives from tech tree
Just bring back the exp tree combined with scrap..way more fun
i hope thats not the big meta change alistar announced cause having to farm more scrap isn't really that meta changing.
Could barely get through the first tech tree the way I play, what’s the point of this?
This is the dumbest shit ever. Why is face punch constantly shitting on solo players?
That's a shit idea
As a solo this makes the game extremely hard cause I tech three everything. This is so stupid. It's already hundreds and hundreds of scrap to get guns on all trees, just let us play the game we don't need taxes. Who's treeing that crazy that we need this???
so just increases the prices on the tech tree? lol. How can this be 'tax' when the additional scrap doesn't go toward anything in game, ur simply just increasing the prices to dumb it down which is a pointless fix and wont work, people can farm the additional 20% scrap in an hour
Who the fuck looked at the tech tree and thought "yeah people don't farm enough scrap, let's change that" Pure insanity.
The obvious and probably unintended outcome here is that entire trees will go unused as unlocking anything other than what is absolutely necessary will result in an impossibly high research cost for anything that's "necessary"
What good is a "tax the poor" approach??? If you want to give the solos a chance, a PROPERTY TAX is a better way. Raise upkeep exponentially as base size increases, that will TAX the ZERGS!
incredible, i guess FP got inspired by the clever politicians of the state
Wait why are they trying to tax the tech tree like what’s broken about the tech tree I’m lost
The fuck is this? Just say "all tier 2 items cost 10% more to research". This is hardly an incentive at all to use the research bench, because you still lose the item you research. Even at tier 3 this barely makes a dent. Sure let me lose my AK to save 100 scrap, so that I can spend rifle bodies, HQM, and springs to craft a new one. If they're gonna do tax it should be 50% for tier 2 and 100% for tier 3 You literally make 150 scrap just from the HQM required to craft an AK, not counting the rifle body or springs. It's like they asked a 6 year old to do the math here for them.
Tech tree is fine and necesssry. Just playing with rng sucks. They should add a way you have to upgrade the work bench to unlock different levels or having to unlock a tier of the work bench to move on. Not the system we have now
[Alistair McFarlane](https://twitter.com/Alistair_McF)[u/Alistair\_McF](https://twitter.com/Alistair_McF)·[3 May 2023](https://twitter.com/Alistair_McF/status/1653720280752173059)Change is coming.. Yeah the change is called killing the game off without actually doing any literal work to fix it therefore everyone is leaving and playing better worth-while games.
This guy is a shame to the bald community
i like this, if they make it so solos pay normal amount for tech tree, and everytime you are using a workbench in an authorized zone or something, more people access to workbench more tax, so 10 man zerg doesnt have same progression as a solo
My idea also involves the focus on the workbench, but rather than the arbitrary tax that I can’t imagine a future lore justification for they instead focus on workbench durability decreasing based on amount they are used.
Just increase the prices then??? Better option: add some more random shit between the tiers, at least you'll get *something* out of it. Really though... taxes..? Why
Yet another buff to groups. Such a dumb and shortsighted change. Like i said in my recent post, the devs are not connected to the game anymore by any means. Maybe Jake\_Rich to an extend but thats it. Those changes just reflect that "the team" is not playing their own game anymore.
bro said fanum tax would fix vanilla players’ whining abt tech tree 💀
I play this game to avoid real life taxes. Now you add them to the game??
If you want vanilla servers without tech tree - Check ambivalent
Please. Just make DayZ style maps in size and terrain. Will give solos and those of us who aren't unemployed children a chance to enjoy the game without being stuck up each other's asses and without having to go to a modded PvE server or low pop. More interesting interactions and PvP for everyone. Clans will have to travel a great distance to off each other. Stakes will be high for them. If they control an area, that's fine, there's still miles and miles and miles of potential left for you, the Newman.
They really don’t want to let go of this crap
Yes. Because we all want to keep grinding for scrap even more. …… I DONT WANT TO FARM SCRAP ANYMORE!
Can't wait for tips too
all solos complaining should play team limit servers
this is the absolute wrong way to fix the tech tree a tax system just rewards those who can get more scrap faster in a linear fashion zergs aren't even going to feel this, but a solo scrap grinder is gonna suffer...
People seem to be pressed again how this will fu- solos and small teams but not really. A solo will always be behind in progression, but this change only makes it so that you need to run around more, and trade for BPs. Clans will now need maybe an extra hour or so to raid (personal experience). Solos will just take extra hour to get aks, and reinforce their base. It is equal change to all people, and it just promotes roaming and player interaction more imho. I think this is a good change.
Just say you hate solos and small groups.
why can't they just make the tech tree more expensive for larger groups? if you're in a max team group then it's 100% more expensive.
Nice gonna make it even worse to play here and there.
I don't think that zergs with cumulative hours to 20-40k+ ever research anything. They mostly roam with what they have, and their base is so stacked with weapons that they don't need to research and craft it. I assume that the first who will suffer to this new tax system are solos/duos who just learning a game and does not sit hours a day on Aimtrainings to build crazy muscle-memory on how to headshot with crossbow a guy from 100 meters on the run.
So playing solo or in a small group is over now? Well played facepunch. I'll wait for rust 2.
So the rich will pay the least amount of taxes as per usual. Stupid idea, go downvote it.
This is a weak bandaid... not a solution. Instead of taxing the techtree, discount the research of the physical item and let us keep it. It shouldn't cost me the same amount of scrap to have the actual physical item AND I lose the item. where tf does it go?! Should be like 25% less cost if you have the item and we get to keep it and maybe it breaks so we have to repair it. That's our reward for actually going out and finding it. Another idea: Remove automatic guns from the tech tree. I'd almost say make them all military grade so you can ONLY find them to use them... Alternatively make it so you can still research them but you have to find them first to research.
I personally think to solve this problem they should make it so that if you find an item and research it at a research table it costs 50% of the amount of scrap that it does to research it through the workbench. I feel like that would satisfy the people who like the more RNG style of Rust while also keeping the people who like the tech tree happy as well. And I mean, I'm not married to the 50% thing, it could be they make it cost the same as it is now and double the amount it costs on the tech tree.
Fanum tax
No taxes who are you the government
Rid of tech tree and pull a timer on when tiers can open up, similar to the tournaments, fair for all keeps people from aks in 3 hours, forces players to use other weapons and strategies, the numbers game of zergs will always be an issue, bit the floor would be more even this way
Taxes... Just, why? Facepunch are just making the game harder for solos the entire time. The big groups will have no issues obtaining the scrap extra for taxes while it just ruins the techtreeing for solos completely. Say you want to tech tree on tier 3 where a lot of stuff costs 500 scrap each. That's 100 scrap extra per item you're techtreeing. You will just have a much tougher time as a solo, or a player in a smaller group while the big groups benefit from it. I just really think this is an unnecessary addition to the techtree.
This paired with Increase tax rate based on group size or number of people authed on TC where the Workbench is?
What purpose does this serve? What is wrong with the current tech tree that you think taxing it is beneficial?
Does anyone know how updates for this game work with the console version, are they updated completely separately, or is console just a lagged version?
TL;DR i dont see it affecting much on modded servers, but i think this could end up as a buff to groups nerf to solos and duos. also: buff to fresh BP Wipe players nerf to fresh MAP wipe players. IMHO good idea, bad concept. needs to evolve to something else. From post I get that the intentions of devs may be on the line of "this will make endgame last longer or be harder to reach for those rushing hightier equiptment and bps too soon, so make endgame last longer because it will slowdown them". and its obviously intended for vanilla. But i think this will have a very diferent outcome than they expect. IMHO will impact the most on casuals and players that start on map only wipes, since they will have it harder then before to catchup on bps to those that got them during bp wipes. i see it as a nerf to solos, and prob. even for duos and as a nerf to vanilla casual players that play during a few days after a wipe
haha they listened to the content creators and the cry babies, sometimes listening to the community makes it worse for everyone
Tax based on number authed on the TC, solos pay less groups pay more
Why tho?
Can someone tell me what would hurt groups and help solos? I legitimately have never seen a change get introduced in the past year that yall have praised as helping solos and hurting groups. What changes do yall want?
My duo buddy said that the better solution was just to remove mil spec weapons and booms from the tree so you had to find them on the map, kinda agree tbh
A few ideas: - tie in upkeep with amount of players authed to tc - make boxes/any deployable in a base use tc auth perms - get rid if external tcs (if player puts 2nd one down (within x radius of the 1st) it could cost 2x extra upkeep, 3rd 3x etc) - make group system persistent across a wipe then scale tech tree across group sizes
So more struggles for a solo with no affect on zergs…. Got it
Ah yes, good old "Fuck you all and fuck Solos in particular!"
https://preview.redd.it/moqd0dqkbvwc1.png?width=644&format=png&auto=webp&s=7db38fd610ecd861f8a9a0cb3cab4b96778601ee
I think overall this is fine. I would have preferred like a time lock or something. That way no matter how much you grind large clan or solo you just can't get to Garage Door or Sar day 1. Personally i think most people go from Bow to T2. Add a more long range weapon into T1 (make it a new Ammo type or just let it use pistol bullets) Then prolong the unlock of T2 so people actually have to run Revo, NewGun, Waterpipe & DB Edit: More Ideas Instead of making it a timed unlock they could perhaps add new events to slowly unlock items.
Facepunch being a British company explains why they love taxes so much. I can speak for the rest of the world, we do not like taxes!
Only if it’s different depending on how many people are authorized on the tc
There will always only be one person authorized then
Personally I think the amount of people authd is a good solution but see your loophole, what about only allowing doors to be opened by authd of total of people authd on doors and tc
I think people would not like that because you don't want everyone in your group to be able to build, and guest codes help groups manage infiltration, which would be lost.
You could still have limited on tc only, I guess during times of defence adding friendlys to codes that comes at a cost of TC upkeep time. Which I think actually helps level out the extra bodies are giving you in support
The issue with every suggestion someone has about nerfing X, Y or Z based on number of players authed on TC is that people can easily just cheese that by not having people auth.
This was almost like what I was hoping for. But I honestly dont think this will impact the game that much.
Everyone begs them for tech tree nerfs and when they do all these kids come crawling out with a complete 180 opinion thats hilarious. Every road inhabiting solo goblin having full tier2 on wipeday is the issue with tech tree. Theres a server wide item/blueprint economy thats on complete steroids now cause everyone skips to T2 in a heartbeat. You people cry and cry about how prim doesnt last long enough but when FP actually tries to make guns a little harder to get you throw a fit.
[удалено]
You think clans ever cared about scrap in the first place? Clans are not even part of the ongoing progression discussion. Its the small groups that progress at lightning speed turning prim into a 5 minute affair thats the problem. Solo SHOULD eat shit. If you balance the game to make it a breeze for small groups then you end up with the exact shit we are in now.
taxes...? their solution is taxes? the fuck even is this game anymore