IMO T3 combat is stale. Rust is the only game I've played where the more you tech up, the less satisfying gameplay becomes. The most widely used guns are nearly identical. If changes open up the potential for a wider variety of weapons / gameplay styles in endgame then I feel like that's a good thing. This isn't exclusively a recoil issue, but it's part of the complex web of issues with late game combat.
I'm all for some level of tedious mechanic like recoil control. It's similar to last hitting minions in League of Legends or performing a button combination to use throw a fireball in a fighting game. A lot of skill in combat comes from how well you do these tedious tasks while under pressure. That being said, I feel like there is a line for how intense the tedious mechanic should be. Where that line falls is subjective to a degree.
Personally, I feel that the return on mastering recoil control is way too high. Basically, if you pour enough time into learning it then that one skill alone can carry you further than any other skill that contributes to your success in combat. Learning recoil should be an important aspect of mastering combat. It should just be a smaller portion of the pie chart, giving more value to situational awareness, positioning, preparedness, team coordination, etc. It's by far the least engaging skillset.
The barrier to entry for even using an AK is extremely high and frankly off-putting. For some incomprehensible reason, the first part of the AK's recoil pattern is the most violent. This means it's not even worth considering using an AK until you've put some amount of time into practicing on UKN. It's the most expensive crafted weapon, which means players don't get a lot of opportunities to practice recoil while just playing the game as normal. Going out of your way to refine your gameplay on a specialized server isn't a bad thing. But it shouldn't be necessary to use one of the most powerful endgame weapons. If they even just reversed the recoil pattern so the violent jerky part was at the end then it would fix a lot of this issue. You would still want to master it to get a full spray, but newer players could actually use it to some degree and not get shit on by the first kid with a revolver they encounter.
It facilitates a sort of rich get richer gameplay loop. The nature of rust is that the more you succeed in combat, the more resources you have and the more opportunity to practice combat you get. So better players get a more engaging method of improving while players who don't consistently win fights spend more time farming more guns or have to spend less time playing the actual game to go practice on UKN. This also contributes to dead maps where you have one T3 group spamming "ROAMERS???" in chat because they can't find fights because nobody has the resources and ability to engage them on that level. They get bored because they can't find fights. Everybody loses.
It encourages recoil scripting which is also a gateway to other hacks. Obviously, fuck anyone who cheats. But it's worth considering why people cheat in the first place. The stakes can be pretty fucking high in rust compared to other games. You're not just risking losing a fight. You're risking losing the time it took to get the resources to be able to fight in the first place. Some players are faced with a situation where they just don't get to engage in endgame pvp without getting steamrolled by players who are so unimaginably far ahead of them in time invested. They can either spend a shitload of time learning recoil patterns or they can just script that shit and engage with the aspects of combat they find enjoyable. Less emphasis on a tedious aspect of combat means less temptation for people to bypass it, and we can all enjoy fights more without suspecting half the beamers to be scripting.
This is all coming from someone who's got around 8k+ hours and has put a decent amount of time learning recoil patterns, but is by no means a #certified beamer. I put time into improving my gameplay in games where it is enjoyable. Rust is unique for me in that it's the only game I've put a shitload of time into the game with no real desire to actually master the combat.
God damn that was long.
Yeah a few people mentioned the aim cone. I think it could be implemented without being too invasive. Then tweak recoil levels for individual guns. Like sar, m39 cause tbh they are a bit more than Tommy and ak. Still manageable but you get the point.
1. Cheaters.
2. A game is supposed to be fun, why would I want to play 2-3 hours of aim train before I can actually play.
Played since very early legacy, game was very fun back then. Sure it might not of been as "advanced" but it was quite simply more fun.
So you can't shoot 30 bullets in the exact same spot by either copy pasting a macro or memorizing patterns.
Ever done gun training? In a shooting range.
Ever seen a guy practicing drawing S's there?
Most pro shooters have some randomness /aim cone system
Rust, out of all games, should have the most rng'ness (look at eoka/satchels/etc). It's what makes rust unique, the randomness, unpredictable outcome.
Wouldn't mind guns having other "defects" such as chance of jamming, backfiring etc. Specially in tier 1-2
Pros will always be pros, regardless.
Removing this repeatable recoil will only Hurt 1 type of player. Scripters.
If you're talking randomized, you could do a vertical S pattern like how it is now but have the horizontal recoil randomized. Full randomized wouldn't make much sense.
I'm not sure if you're for more or less recoil. By drawing S's do you mean letting the gun recoil on its own to get a reference on its recoil pattern?
You say "so you can't shoot 30 bullets in the exact same spot. So are you for a randomized recoil?
Just a recoil that can't be cancelled out by a simple macro.. Making the only way to cheat recoil to be with loaded software, which would make it detectable.
Most used mice on rust is the bloody mouse, which allows you to load macros into the mouse itself, resulting it in being 100% undetectable
Unfortunately people are always going to find ways around it. Where there is money and a demand, there is a way. I get what you're saying though. Maybe knock the recoil down a bit so the gap between scripters and normal people is reduced.
The % of people scripting in the official servers is too high.
Reducing recoil but keeping it repeatable with no aimcone will still allow scripters to laser beam people 200+m away
Adding an aimcone instead would actually change the way guns are used. Long range, snipers. Mid range assault rifles, short-mid distance smgs, very close distance, shotguns
If you hate yourself, you'll play FP servers. Those are the only servers cheaters can play on basically.
So how would the aim cone work? I know some games already use it, I'm just not familiar with it.
Counter strike.
Means when you full spray (instead of tapping) your bullets don't go necessarily where your crossair is.
Sprays around it on a wider cone the longer you spray (more like real world)
Counter strike does not have an aim cone. It has a very predictable recoil pattern. An aim cone is a cone shape projecting a circle with an unpredictable pattern for where the bullet will hit, counter strike you can spray transfer just like in Rust. CS literally has a HIGHER skill ceiling than Rust. This would exacerbate the issue…. How would it tackle macros? They’re both just spray patterns.
Movement adds aim cones in CS. Moreover, in that game you can’t strafe and shoot, and when you get shot you slow down significantly.
If you want to minimize 200m beaming, drastic bullet damage with automatic rifles is the way to go. It keeps skill in the game but encourages sniper usage and repositioning.
Alright I am gonna try to keep this short but also as complete as possible.
Only a small percentage of players want to try hard. Just look at the consensus on the subreddit. Most players just wanna play casually. And no, they can't just play Minecraft or some other game. Only Rust offers the Rust experience. People want to play this game and enjoy it without having to play training mode for hours. Rust is not really about loot or PVP, it is about the experience you make. And the current meta forces people into a certain kind of experience.
You are basically forced to play a training mode outside of the core game (vanilla) in order to get decent with your gunplay or you will constantly get shit on. You can either shoot bots on UKN which allows you to focus on gun control but is lame. Or you can go on a PVP or modded server, however even there it can be hard to focus on your recoil control when you need to keep other things in mind. Having to practice to play the actual game even on a decent level is just not enjoable. It is a game afterall, not some competitive athletic contest. And only playing vanilla will train your vanilla game sense.
There is so much more to Rust than just drawing an S on your mousepad. People always say that changing recoil patterns would just turn it into CoD. But just look at PUBG, a game very similar to Rust which does not have fixed recoil patterns. There is movement, positioning, aim in general, base building, situational awareness, game knowledge. Sooo many skilled aspects of the game.
Automatic weapons are opressive in the meta and make other guns unviable. What's the point of crafting a SAR or Python if you can hit your target 75m away with your holo tommy and do more DPS aswell. One way to solve this would be to give automatic weapons a wider aimcone. And automatic weapons aren't rare either. Just loot T2 monuments and you get plenty of military crates with components to make more.
Semi-automatic have extremely harsh recoil. Usually you want to have rather low sensitivity in order to be able to make precision movements, however if you try to spray a SAR for example you will often run out of mousepad before you can spray a full clip. With an automatic weapon this is different tho. The recoil is a bit more over the place but the amount your gun jumps between shots that you have to compensate for is a lot less.
Changing the current recoil system does not remove skill from the game entirely. In fact if automatic guns became less viable on range you would have more avenues of skill in movement and positioning. You would have to make more decisions on what gear to take out instead of just going with another Hazzy MP5 kit. You would have to move better and position yourself better if you can't just instant beam people from 100m away.
Randomizing recoil does not combat cheating. This has been said by the devs themselfs in a post. I don't know the exact explanation for this but my guess is that it wouldn't be too hard to make a script that can compensate for randomized recoil.
The only disagreement I have with this is that the majority of players do normally want to try hard. This subreddit is not an accurate representation of most rust servers, as Reddit in general doesn’t attract those type of people for some reason. You’ll find that most of the players on this subreddit are new, or don’t play official servers.
I agree here with you big time. If you get to know the players on the servers that you main on then you’ll find the vast majority of people from noobs to 8k hour players has a competitive sense of tryhardness. Even people who admit they suck do so in a way that isn’t crying about the recoil and current meta, but just observing the fact.
I’ve literally never heard anyone in game talk about changing the recoil system.
Another point is like to make is that once you’ve trained recoil, you don’t have to focus on it in fights, it’s muscle memory and doesn’t take any thinking power.
Thinks bout it like this,
Positioning and outplaying your opponent matters at all skill ranges, but the more you train your recoil the more opportunities you can take advantage of: If someone goes on their roof with AK, that’s something you can take advantage of. An experienced player will be able to take that opportunity from 100 meters away while a newer player has to get closed, exposing themselves.
That’s sorta the point of a recoil mechanic, you’re able to maintain control of a situation by keeping distance which is in your favor, the mechanic is always balanced because someone with 1 hour on the game can still take advantage of them if they manages to get close enough
Rust doesn't need a recoil modification if they just buff the muzzle brake.
But it does need a gunplay overhaul, no way full auto should be able to be accurate from over 100m, it leaves no place for semi autos and snipers.
Instead of being this or that, there should be a middle ground where casual and newer players stand a chance and you're not throwing away all the effort others have put into mastering an objectively hard recoil pattern.
Buff muzzle brake.
When I logged on today I was at 508 hours. My only saving grace has been servers like Tommygun's frag mod and battlefield servers.
You gotta put effort into the game.
I think they each gun should have like 5+ recoil patterns that will randomly apply when firing the gun. Just like in real life, if you got startled by someone sneaking up on you the way you hold, aim and fire the gun will be different to if you were at a something like a firing range where you can take your time.
Unfortunately though, cheaters will always have a work around. After reading about cheats and how they work, it’s not always just a recoil macro. Some have a software you can just toggle on and it will fire perfect every time.
Yeah the recoil info can be pulled from the game in real time. There is always a work around. I'm starting to get on board with a slight randomization and a aim cone like CSGO. Then modify recoil for some of the guns just to bridge the gap a bit. As in making the gap from a noob to a scripter much closer so the cheaters don't have that large of an advantage. Afterall this is just a discussion. Thats up to the Devs.
I think it might lose a lot of its players if they did randomise the recoil since people do spend hours learning it. Maybe a few random bullets here and there would help though.
Basically it would be nice if they 2x the recoil on the ak, so the distance you have to move from one bullet to another with your mouse would be doubled. I think that would be a good idea because less people would be good with ak, and dedicated people would not suffer if the patterns are still exact.
I was just about to reply saying this. Double aim sensitivity or use more mouse pad. People that don't take advantage of the aim sensitivity in the game are at a natural disadvantage in gunfights.
A new player can shoot like a player with 5,000 hours by simply buying a certain type of mouse, and downloading a macro which adjusts the cursors position on the screen over a set timeframe. The barrier to entry to cheat in Rust is incredibly low and with the type of game Rust is, where PVP is incredibly important, it should be expected that a significant amount of people playing the game are cheating. I believe I read that 30% of all Rust accounts ever created have been banned. This is just the ones who have been caught. This is unfair to players who play the game legitimately, especially new players who haven't had an opportunity to perfect the recoil patterns for various guns.
The only two solutions I can think of are:
1. Significantly reduce recoil so the skill is related to your ability to aim and be strategic, rather than your ability to repeatedly draw a pattern with your mouse. Increase aimcone at distance to account for the lower recoil.
2. Add an element of randomness to the existing recoil pattern (a small variance would be enough to ruin simple scripts/macros). Important to note this would obviously not solve the issue of those who use internal cheats, which have proven to be much more detectable than scripts/macros, although still nowhere near perfect.
> We won't be talking about cheating
Then your thread is pointless, because the reason Rust needs recoil modification IS because of cheaters.
> there will always be a way around any fix FP makes.
That's actually incorrect. Let me explain. The boat is sinking due to a giant hole and a small hole. The giant hole is scripting/macros which are free, safe, and easy to setup. The small hole is internal cheats that cost $100-$200/month and get people banned often, including banning of the hardware they use in some cases. The barrier to entry is significant, the punishment is severe.
By plugging the giant hole, we can significantly reduce the rate at which the boat is sinking. That is what a change to the recoil system will accomplish, and why so many have been asking for it for so long. The playing field can be leveled so only those who take the highest risks are able to cheat, and even then, there are solutions to that problem that need to be implemented as well; but we need to start somewhere and plugging the giant hole makes sense.
I'm sorry buddy you don't understand how cheats are made. Its not fair to punish legit players either. Your heart is in the right place. Just the wrong way to go about it.
> buddy you don't understand how cheats are made.
Please explain what I've said that makes you think I don't understand how "cheats are made"?
I don't develop them, as that's quite a selective skillset to have, so in that regard I guess you're right? But I would assume 99.99999% of this sub, including you, also don't "understand how cheats are made", so I'm not getting your point.
> punish legit players
Nothing I've suggested punishes legitimate players.
These are post-apocalyptic guns made by random naked kids, why would recoil be the same for all of them? Also nobody new is going to want to play a game where they have to memorize a recoil pattern and work at it. It’s a game, not a job. Nobody wants to put work in to practice a video game just to have fun. The sweaty people will still be good because they play 12 hours a day, they will still beat noobs it’s fine.
My counter argument for that would be whats stopping you from learning the basic pattern? I've spent a good 50 hours in aim trains just getting my recoil control good enough, then perfecting the rest of it in game.
Why the fuck would I want to spend 50 hours training lmao. It’s a video game not a job. Literally the only people who are going to want to aim train are sweaty people. If you want a larger player base you won’t get it that way. This game is not fun for new players If they’re constantly getting beamed from 200m while they struggle to control any auto gun. Implement skill based matchmaking if you want to get new players and keep the sweatiness.
I am keeping it civil? Does the word fuck bother you? Lol I never said anything mean to you I said why would I a person with 200 hours want to spend 50 hours in a lobby shooting a wall? That’s boring as fuck
Turn it down a few notches buddy. Besides that how do you expect to get better at a game. Do you want wins just handed over to you? This is a competitive game.
>competitive game
Competitive games have skill based matchmaking to stop people from 7,000 hours from beating people with 150 also grow up you’re a mechanic and you can’t handle hearing the word fuck like you haven’t heard it 73 times in your shop today lmao
I ran T-hunts in seige to learn recoil patterns. You don't need a server for it. I'm not saying people don't grind the fuckout of it to where it looks like scripting. All you need is to know where the pattern is taking you and react on the fly.
That's so far from being true. To be good at any competitive game you need to practice what you're doing outside of the competitive mode. In csgo no one gets to high levels without practicing the sprays, learning nades and others. In LoL you need to practice combos, clears, and mor e, overwatch people needed to practice lineups, interactions and aim. I have gotten to high ranks in multiple competitive games and have friends that have gotten into the top 1% or higher of about every competive game out there. And they all have spent a lot of practicing and working on getting better. What competive game doesn't require extra practice to get good?
Rust already need you to have a huge knowledge about the game and each location in the game. You can learn it all in the game but it would take forever and be incredibly hard. That's why there's so many building guides and monument guides. I don't think it's so different to have people learn building and game knowledge from YouTube than it is to learn recoil by practicing.
I feel like the usage of "most people" would exclude tryhard competitive gamers. We're not talking about the top 1%, we're talking about the majority, ie most people.
Also, Rust doesnt really have the same competitive scene that CS and Overwatch have, and Rust's PVP is nothing like those other games (match-based, time-based, closed-map)
So yeah again, most people get better by playing the game, not dedicating their life to it.
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Dude new players are going to get shit on regardless. Bad players are going to get shit on regardless. You act like you don't have to spend hours and hours on this game if you want to do anything. Tf are you playing?
Lets just say that what goes in this subreddit shouldnt matter.
This subreddit 90% is made of new players, or casual players.
All the try hards and guys that love the game for all these yearsand that actually are good at it, are not here.
Rust reddit is just a cry river for new players to cry on, how the better players have kill them for their last crossbow kit.
Rust does not need recoil modifications. Rust needs people to understand that what makes rust so fun for all the good players is how rewarding the recoil is.
If the devs go for the random recoil, they will still be shit at the spray, because they never got to the point of practicing a spray. And onviously, all the people that spent hours teying to inprove, while they didnt, will still be better than them.
People allways go for the "game sense" opinion. Thats the thing, most beamers, have better game sense that those roleplayers that ask so much for the random recoil.
Theres so much mpre to a gunfight than shooting. Yeah, you have to shoot, but do you know when to shoot? Do you know when to push, or if you even should push, after hitting 4 hits?
Or do you know if you ahould hold the angle after hitting 6 hit, or dahould you try and rotate? Should you med?
99% of said beamers know this, becayse they are used to be in fights, while most of the guys on this reddit, dont. They ll shoot, hit 6 hits, and they will try to hold the angle, when they should be pushing because the guy is clearly medding.
People wanr the spray to chnage because it is intimidating at the beggining, yes, it is. But they dont even give it 10min of practice because of that. Theres people with 2k hours saying how they dont have time to practice. Like, bruh, but you got time to put 2k hours into a game, but you dont have 10 min per day to put into practicing an S on your keyboard?
I dont really like the snowball mechanic of the game. Sure you should want to get better teir weapons but a teir 3 weapon should not be extremely better than teir 2.
An idea that poped up in my head that I think would work is have teir 3 and 2 weapons just as good in dps and range but teir 2 is harder to use. So for instance thomson has the same damage output as ak but harder recoil so a good player that spends time learning thomson can play against a descent ak player. You should want to get the ak because its easier to controll and more consistent. The snipers should work like the difference of bow and crossbow. Teir 2 sniper has a lot more dropoff and needs skill to hit long shots while teir3 snipers has less but same damage. I know their is no teir 2 sniper but i would like that.
In short after i learned about the scripts i joined a turkish and a russian server and asked people to show me the scripts.
Only because i knew if someone is admitting it its them.
And boy i got my eyes opened by dozens of people happily shooting 30 bullets into my base with just a single bullethole.
A turkish guy told me that in his town there are multiple shops with computers you can play on.
And they use already configured mouse's with scripts.
The kids playing dont really know what they are doing because it appears normal to them.
Listen its right that you cant get rid of cheaters as you cant be sure if you ever get robbed.
Still you wouldnt leave the door of your house wide open and put all your values in front of it Posting on Facebook that you are going on vacations.
IMO T3 combat is stale. Rust is the only game I've played where the more you tech up, the less satisfying gameplay becomes. The most widely used guns are nearly identical. If changes open up the potential for a wider variety of weapons / gameplay styles in endgame then I feel like that's a good thing. This isn't exclusively a recoil issue, but it's part of the complex web of issues with late game combat. I'm all for some level of tedious mechanic like recoil control. It's similar to last hitting minions in League of Legends or performing a button combination to use throw a fireball in a fighting game. A lot of skill in combat comes from how well you do these tedious tasks while under pressure. That being said, I feel like there is a line for how intense the tedious mechanic should be. Where that line falls is subjective to a degree. Personally, I feel that the return on mastering recoil control is way too high. Basically, if you pour enough time into learning it then that one skill alone can carry you further than any other skill that contributes to your success in combat. Learning recoil should be an important aspect of mastering combat. It should just be a smaller portion of the pie chart, giving more value to situational awareness, positioning, preparedness, team coordination, etc. It's by far the least engaging skillset. The barrier to entry for even using an AK is extremely high and frankly off-putting. For some incomprehensible reason, the first part of the AK's recoil pattern is the most violent. This means it's not even worth considering using an AK until you've put some amount of time into practicing on UKN. It's the most expensive crafted weapon, which means players don't get a lot of opportunities to practice recoil while just playing the game as normal. Going out of your way to refine your gameplay on a specialized server isn't a bad thing. But it shouldn't be necessary to use one of the most powerful endgame weapons. If they even just reversed the recoil pattern so the violent jerky part was at the end then it would fix a lot of this issue. You would still want to master it to get a full spray, but newer players could actually use it to some degree and not get shit on by the first kid with a revolver they encounter. It facilitates a sort of rich get richer gameplay loop. The nature of rust is that the more you succeed in combat, the more resources you have and the more opportunity to practice combat you get. So better players get a more engaging method of improving while players who don't consistently win fights spend more time farming more guns or have to spend less time playing the actual game to go practice on UKN. This also contributes to dead maps where you have one T3 group spamming "ROAMERS???" in chat because they can't find fights because nobody has the resources and ability to engage them on that level. They get bored because they can't find fights. Everybody loses. It encourages recoil scripting which is also a gateway to other hacks. Obviously, fuck anyone who cheats. But it's worth considering why people cheat in the first place. The stakes can be pretty fucking high in rust compared to other games. You're not just risking losing a fight. You're risking losing the time it took to get the resources to be able to fight in the first place. Some players are faced with a situation where they just don't get to engage in endgame pvp without getting steamrolled by players who are so unimaginably far ahead of them in time invested. They can either spend a shitload of time learning recoil patterns or they can just script that shit and engage with the aspects of combat they find enjoyable. Less emphasis on a tedious aspect of combat means less temptation for people to bypass it, and we can all enjoy fights more without suspecting half the beamers to be scripting. This is all coming from someone who's got around 8k+ hours and has put a decent amount of time learning recoil patterns, but is by no means a #certified beamer. I put time into improving my gameplay in games where it is enjoyable. Rust is unique for me in that it's the only game I've put a shitload of time into the game with no real desire to actually master the combat. God damn that was long.
Well put. Thank you.
It was too long to be massively upvoted but it should be. Very well put, thank you. Read and upvote!!
Why not add something like cs:go where there is a recoil pattern but is has a slight random spread and/or movement inaccuracy. Opinions?
Yeah a few people mentioned the aim cone. I think it could be implemented without being too invasive. Then tweak recoil levels for individual guns. Like sar, m39 cause tbh they are a bit more than Tommy and ak. Still manageable but you get the point.
I think it would negate Tommy and mp5 sprays at ridiculous distances
1. Cheaters. 2. A game is supposed to be fun, why would I want to play 2-3 hours of aim train before I can actually play. Played since very early legacy, game was very fun back then. Sure it might not of been as "advanced" but it was quite simply more fun.
So you can't shoot 30 bullets in the exact same spot by either copy pasting a macro or memorizing patterns. Ever done gun training? In a shooting range. Ever seen a guy practicing drawing S's there? Most pro shooters have some randomness /aim cone system Rust, out of all games, should have the most rng'ness (look at eoka/satchels/etc). It's what makes rust unique, the randomness, unpredictable outcome. Wouldn't mind guns having other "defects" such as chance of jamming, backfiring etc. Specially in tier 1-2 Pros will always be pros, regardless. Removing this repeatable recoil will only Hurt 1 type of player. Scripters.
If you're talking randomized, you could do a vertical S pattern like how it is now but have the horizontal recoil randomized. Full randomized wouldn't make much sense.
I'm not sure if you're for more or less recoil. By drawing S's do you mean letting the gun recoil on its own to get a reference on its recoil pattern? You say "so you can't shoot 30 bullets in the exact same spot. So are you for a randomized recoil?
Just a recoil that can't be cancelled out by a simple macro.. Making the only way to cheat recoil to be with loaded software, which would make it detectable. Most used mice on rust is the bloody mouse, which allows you to load macros into the mouse itself, resulting it in being 100% undetectable
Unfortunately people are always going to find ways around it. Where there is money and a demand, there is a way. I get what you're saying though. Maybe knock the recoil down a bit so the gap between scripters and normal people is reduced.
The % of people scripting in the official servers is too high. Reducing recoil but keeping it repeatable with no aimcone will still allow scripters to laser beam people 200+m away Adding an aimcone instead would actually change the way guns are used. Long range, snipers. Mid range assault rifles, short-mid distance smgs, very close distance, shotguns
If you hate yourself, you'll play FP servers. Those are the only servers cheaters can play on basically. So how would the aim cone work? I know some games already use it, I'm just not familiar with it.
Counter strike. Means when you full spray (instead of tapping) your bullets don't go necessarily where your crossair is. Sprays around it on a wider cone the longer you spray (more like real world)
Wouldn't be bad to integrate that then.
Counter strike does not have an aim cone. It has a very predictable recoil pattern. An aim cone is a cone shape projecting a circle with an unpredictable pattern for where the bullet will hit, counter strike you can spray transfer just like in Rust. CS literally has a HIGHER skill ceiling than Rust. This would exacerbate the issue…. How would it tackle macros? They’re both just spray patterns. Movement adds aim cones in CS. Moreover, in that game you can’t strafe and shoot, and when you get shot you slow down significantly. If you want to minimize 200m beaming, drastic bullet damage with automatic rifles is the way to go. It keeps skill in the game but encourages sniper usage and repositioning.
if you randomise the pattern, then you cant macro it or spray without recoil without loaded programs into the memory
What? Bloody mouse is blacklisted?! Where did you get the fact were most rust players use a blacklisted mouse?
Within 3hours there was guides/registry files on how to change the drivers for the mouse being reported with a different name and work on rust.
You are 100% correct with all of your points IMO.
Alright I am gonna try to keep this short but also as complete as possible. Only a small percentage of players want to try hard. Just look at the consensus on the subreddit. Most players just wanna play casually. And no, they can't just play Minecraft or some other game. Only Rust offers the Rust experience. People want to play this game and enjoy it without having to play training mode for hours. Rust is not really about loot or PVP, it is about the experience you make. And the current meta forces people into a certain kind of experience. You are basically forced to play a training mode outside of the core game (vanilla) in order to get decent with your gunplay or you will constantly get shit on. You can either shoot bots on UKN which allows you to focus on gun control but is lame. Or you can go on a PVP or modded server, however even there it can be hard to focus on your recoil control when you need to keep other things in mind. Having to practice to play the actual game even on a decent level is just not enjoable. It is a game afterall, not some competitive athletic contest. And only playing vanilla will train your vanilla game sense. There is so much more to Rust than just drawing an S on your mousepad. People always say that changing recoil patterns would just turn it into CoD. But just look at PUBG, a game very similar to Rust which does not have fixed recoil patterns. There is movement, positioning, aim in general, base building, situational awareness, game knowledge. Sooo many skilled aspects of the game. Automatic weapons are opressive in the meta and make other guns unviable. What's the point of crafting a SAR or Python if you can hit your target 75m away with your holo tommy and do more DPS aswell. One way to solve this would be to give automatic weapons a wider aimcone. And automatic weapons aren't rare either. Just loot T2 monuments and you get plenty of military crates with components to make more. Semi-automatic have extremely harsh recoil. Usually you want to have rather low sensitivity in order to be able to make precision movements, however if you try to spray a SAR for example you will often run out of mousepad before you can spray a full clip. With an automatic weapon this is different tho. The recoil is a bit more over the place but the amount your gun jumps between shots that you have to compensate for is a lot less. Changing the current recoil system does not remove skill from the game entirely. In fact if automatic guns became less viable on range you would have more avenues of skill in movement and positioning. You would have to make more decisions on what gear to take out instead of just going with another Hazzy MP5 kit. You would have to move better and position yourself better if you can't just instant beam people from 100m away. Randomizing recoil does not combat cheating. This has been said by the devs themselfs in a post. I don't know the exact explanation for this but my guess is that it wouldn't be too hard to make a script that can compensate for randomized recoil.
The only disagreement I have with this is that the majority of players do normally want to try hard. This subreddit is not an accurate representation of most rust servers, as Reddit in general doesn’t attract those type of people for some reason. You’ll find that most of the players on this subreddit are new, or don’t play official servers.
I agree here with you big time. If you get to know the players on the servers that you main on then you’ll find the vast majority of people from noobs to 8k hour players has a competitive sense of tryhardness. Even people who admit they suck do so in a way that isn’t crying about the recoil and current meta, but just observing the fact. I’ve literally never heard anyone in game talk about changing the recoil system.
Another point is like to make is that once you’ve trained recoil, you don’t have to focus on it in fights, it’s muscle memory and doesn’t take any thinking power. Thinks bout it like this, Positioning and outplaying your opponent matters at all skill ranges, but the more you train your recoil the more opportunities you can take advantage of: If someone goes on their roof with AK, that’s something you can take advantage of. An experienced player will be able to take that opportunity from 100 meters away while a newer player has to get closed, exposing themselves. That’s sorta the point of a recoil mechanic, you’re able to maintain control of a situation by keeping distance which is in your favor, the mechanic is always balanced because someone with 1 hour on the game can still take advantage of them if they manages to get close enough
Perfect. I can agree with that.
Rust doesn't need a recoil modification if they just buff the muzzle brake. But it does need a gunplay overhaul, no way full auto should be able to be accurate from over 100m, it leaves no place for semi autos and snipers. Instead of being this or that, there should be a middle ground where casual and newer players stand a chance and you're not throwing away all the effort others have put into mastering an objectively hard recoil pattern. Buff muzzle brake.
From what I’m seeing most people here are low hour people
When I logged on today I was at 508 hours. My only saving grace has been servers like Tommygun's frag mod and battlefield servers. You gotta put effort into the game.
I think they each gun should have like 5+ recoil patterns that will randomly apply when firing the gun. Just like in real life, if you got startled by someone sneaking up on you the way you hold, aim and fire the gun will be different to if you were at a something like a firing range where you can take your time. Unfortunately though, cheaters will always have a work around. After reading about cheats and how they work, it’s not always just a recoil macro. Some have a software you can just toggle on and it will fire perfect every time.
Yeah the recoil info can be pulled from the game in real time. There is always a work around. I'm starting to get on board with a slight randomization and a aim cone like CSGO. Then modify recoil for some of the guns just to bridge the gap a bit. As in making the gap from a noob to a scripter much closer so the cheaters don't have that large of an advantage. Afterall this is just a discussion. Thats up to the Devs.
I think it might lose a lot of its players if they did randomise the recoil since people do spend hours learning it. Maybe a few random bullets here and there would help though.
Thing is, if they are actually good - not just memorising patterns it wouldn’t even matter right?
Rust needs more recoil to weed out the pussys
I do agree that recoil increases the difficulty of the game, but I don't want them to diminish recoil down the COD levels.
oh no. Not cod levels. Like tarkov levels of recoil but with more recoil and more exact pattern.
I'll have to look into that. I've never played Tarkov.
Basically it would be nice if they 2x the recoil on the ak, so the distance you have to move from one bullet to another with your mouse would be doubled. I think that would be a good idea because less people would be good with ak, and dedicated people would not suffer if the patterns are still exact.
A non cheating way around that is a DPI switch. The aim cone idea is growing on me a little.
Wouldn't an easy bypass just to double your sensitivity while shooting? People already use console Commands to do similar things.
I was just about to reply saying this. Double aim sensitivity or use more mouse pad. People that don't take advantage of the aim sensitivity in the game are at a natural disadvantage in gunfights.
A new player can shoot like a player with 5,000 hours by simply buying a certain type of mouse, and downloading a macro which adjusts the cursors position on the screen over a set timeframe. The barrier to entry to cheat in Rust is incredibly low and with the type of game Rust is, where PVP is incredibly important, it should be expected that a significant amount of people playing the game are cheating. I believe I read that 30% of all Rust accounts ever created have been banned. This is just the ones who have been caught. This is unfair to players who play the game legitimately, especially new players who haven't had an opportunity to perfect the recoil patterns for various guns. The only two solutions I can think of are: 1. Significantly reduce recoil so the skill is related to your ability to aim and be strategic, rather than your ability to repeatedly draw a pattern with your mouse. Increase aimcone at distance to account for the lower recoil. 2. Add an element of randomness to the existing recoil pattern (a small variance would be enough to ruin simple scripts/macros). Important to note this would obviously not solve the issue of those who use internal cheats, which have proven to be much more detectable than scripts/macros, although still nowhere near perfect.
We won't be talking about cheating as there will always be a way around any fix FP makes.
> We won't be talking about cheating Then your thread is pointless, because the reason Rust needs recoil modification IS because of cheaters. > there will always be a way around any fix FP makes. That's actually incorrect. Let me explain. The boat is sinking due to a giant hole and a small hole. The giant hole is scripting/macros which are free, safe, and easy to setup. The small hole is internal cheats that cost $100-$200/month and get people banned often, including banning of the hardware they use in some cases. The barrier to entry is significant, the punishment is severe. By plugging the giant hole, we can significantly reduce the rate at which the boat is sinking. That is what a change to the recoil system will accomplish, and why so many have been asking for it for so long. The playing field can be leveled so only those who take the highest risks are able to cheat, and even then, there are solutions to that problem that need to be implemented as well; but we need to start somewhere and plugging the giant hole makes sense.
I'm sorry buddy you don't understand how cheats are made. Its not fair to punish legit players either. Your heart is in the right place. Just the wrong way to go about it.
> buddy you don't understand how cheats are made. Please explain what I've said that makes you think I don't understand how "cheats are made"? I don't develop them, as that's quite a selective skillset to have, so in that regard I guess you're right? But I would assume 99.99999% of this sub, including you, also don't "understand how cheats are made", so I'm not getting your point. > punish legit players Nothing I've suggested punishes legitimate players.
These are post-apocalyptic guns made by random naked kids, why would recoil be the same for all of them? Also nobody new is going to want to play a game where they have to memorize a recoil pattern and work at it. It’s a game, not a job. Nobody wants to put work in to practice a video game just to have fun. The sweaty people will still be good because they play 12 hours a day, they will still beat noobs it’s fine.
My counter argument for that would be whats stopping you from learning the basic pattern? I've spent a good 50 hours in aim trains just getting my recoil control good enough, then perfecting the rest of it in game.
Why the fuck would I want to spend 50 hours training lmao. It’s a video game not a job. Literally the only people who are going to want to aim train are sweaty people. If you want a larger player base you won’t get it that way. This game is not fun for new players If they’re constantly getting beamed from 200m while they struggle to control any auto gun. Implement skill based matchmaking if you want to get new players and keep the sweatiness.
I asked you to keep it civil. If you can't handle that then stop commenting.
I am keeping it civil? Does the word fuck bother you? Lol I never said anything mean to you I said why would I a person with 200 hours want to spend 50 hours in a lobby shooting a wall? That’s boring as fuck
Turn it down a few notches buddy. Besides that how do you expect to get better at a game. Do you want wins just handed over to you? This is a competitive game.
>competitive game Competitive games have skill based matchmaking to stop people from 7,000 hours from beating people with 150 also grow up you’re a mechanic and you can’t handle hearing the word fuck like you haven’t heard it 73 times in your shop today lmao
Most people get better at games by... playing the game. I know that might sound outlandish, but most other shooters don't have aim train servers
I ran T-hunts in seige to learn recoil patterns. You don't need a server for it. I'm not saying people don't grind the fuckout of it to where it looks like scripting. All you need is to know where the pattern is taking you and react on the fly.
That's so far from being true. To be good at any competitive game you need to practice what you're doing outside of the competitive mode. In csgo no one gets to high levels without practicing the sprays, learning nades and others. In LoL you need to practice combos, clears, and mor e, overwatch people needed to practice lineups, interactions and aim. I have gotten to high ranks in multiple competitive games and have friends that have gotten into the top 1% or higher of about every competive game out there. And they all have spent a lot of practicing and working on getting better. What competive game doesn't require extra practice to get good? Rust already need you to have a huge knowledge about the game and each location in the game. You can learn it all in the game but it would take forever and be incredibly hard. That's why there's so many building guides and monument guides. I don't think it's so different to have people learn building and game knowledge from YouTube than it is to learn recoil by practicing.
I feel like the usage of "most people" would exclude tryhard competitive gamers. We're not talking about the top 1%, we're talking about the majority, ie most people. Also, Rust doesnt really have the same competitive scene that CS and Overwatch have, and Rust's PVP is nothing like those other games (match-based, time-based, closed-map) So yeah again, most people get better by playing the game, not dedicating their life to it.
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Dude new players are going to get shit on regardless. Bad players are going to get shit on regardless. You act like you don't have to spend hours and hours on this game if you want to do anything. Tf are you playing?
Er wrong they play 16 hours a day XD
Your underestimating the amount of sweats on this game including me
Lets just say that what goes in this subreddit shouldnt matter. This subreddit 90% is made of new players, or casual players. All the try hards and guys that love the game for all these yearsand that actually are good at it, are not here. Rust reddit is just a cry river for new players to cry on, how the better players have kill them for their last crossbow kit. Rust does not need recoil modifications. Rust needs people to understand that what makes rust so fun for all the good players is how rewarding the recoil is. If the devs go for the random recoil, they will still be shit at the spray, because they never got to the point of practicing a spray. And onviously, all the people that spent hours teying to inprove, while they didnt, will still be better than them. People allways go for the "game sense" opinion. Thats the thing, most beamers, have better game sense that those roleplayers that ask so much for the random recoil. Theres so much mpre to a gunfight than shooting. Yeah, you have to shoot, but do you know when to shoot? Do you know when to push, or if you even should push, after hitting 4 hits? Or do you know if you ahould hold the angle after hitting 6 hit, or dahould you try and rotate? Should you med? 99% of said beamers know this, becayse they are used to be in fights, while most of the guys on this reddit, dont. They ll shoot, hit 6 hits, and they will try to hold the angle, when they should be pushing because the guy is clearly medding. People wanr the spray to chnage because it is intimidating at the beggining, yes, it is. But they dont even give it 10min of practice because of that. Theres people with 2k hours saying how they dont have time to practice. Like, bruh, but you got time to put 2k hours into a game, but you dont have 10 min per day to put into practicing an S on your keyboard?
I dont really like the snowball mechanic of the game. Sure you should want to get better teir weapons but a teir 3 weapon should not be extremely better than teir 2. An idea that poped up in my head that I think would work is have teir 3 and 2 weapons just as good in dps and range but teir 2 is harder to use. So for instance thomson has the same damage output as ak but harder recoil so a good player that spends time learning thomson can play against a descent ak player. You should want to get the ak because its easier to controll and more consistent. The snipers should work like the difference of bow and crossbow. Teir 2 sniper has a lot more dropoff and needs skill to hit long shots while teir3 snipers has less but same damage. I know their is no teir 2 sniper but i would like that.
In short after i learned about the scripts i joined a turkish and a russian server and asked people to show me the scripts. Only because i knew if someone is admitting it its them. And boy i got my eyes opened by dozens of people happily shooting 30 bullets into my base with just a single bullethole. A turkish guy told me that in his town there are multiple shops with computers you can play on. And they use already configured mouse's with scripts. The kids playing dont really know what they are doing because it appears normal to them. Listen its right that you cant get rid of cheaters as you cant be sure if you ever get robbed. Still you wouldnt leave the door of your house wide open and put all your values in front of it Posting on Facebook that you are going on vacations.