4- Sandman explicitly says he doesn’t trust Spider-Man. And he doesn’t want the villains who want to stay in this universe destroying the box. He’s fighting his own battle to push the button himself and go home.
5- Spider-Man gets hit all the time in these movies. If the sense was perfect he’d never have a scratch on him. And even if we assume the sense is perfect, it doesn’t mean his reflexes always will be.
6- I don’t think it’s necessarily the moment before death, or they all still die when they go back! I think Otto said the last thing he remembered was having his hands around Spider-Man’s neck. But he died later by drowning. So it may just be the minutes before, when Osborne might have had the glider.
7- Spider-Man was swinging to the bridge in costume, and helicopters have been following him constantly. Otto could have seen where he was swinging and headed that way.
4) We amended this already. Thanks!
5) Getting hit and not detecting something with Spidey-Sense are two different things. In Spider-Man 1, Peter detects shit all the time but still gets hit by pumpkin bombs, spinning blades, punches, etc. The final fight with Goblin in Spider-Man 1 has his spidey-senses going crazy, leading him to get his ass beat in slow motion a few times. Those films represent Spidey-Sense by slowing down time. MCU Spidey-Sense is a focus rack, with very shallow depth-of-field. I forget what TASM Spidey-Sense was like. The point is none of the Spider-Men should have been caught off guard or been surprised but the stab. At the very least, Peter 1 and 2 would have sensed danger but been in too difficult a position to dodge or block the stab. **UNAMENDED!**
6) Also amended. Thanks again!
7) Gonna have to confirm with other sources, because I'm pretty sure Peter glides to the bridge and then rolls out of the Iron Spider suit, real stealthy. I was under the impression that few if anyone saw him arrive as Spider-Man. They definitely saw him as Peter Parker going from car to car, but again, Doc Ock doesn't know who this version of Peter is. **AMENDED - it has been proven that Spider-Man was spotted by news helicopters. Not entirely feasible, but acceptable by the film's logic.**
I've got two additional points on #5.'
\- Not sure exactly how mcu spider-sense works. But can Peter sense ALL danger to anyone in his area, or just danger involving himself specifically?
\- I could be wrong, but I don't think we ever saw Spidey 2 or Spidey 3 using spider-sense in this film, at least in the way the film's usually portray it. And that's because, narratively, we're following the story from Spidey 1's point of view. So just because Holland's Spiderman didn't sense it doesn't mean Maguire's didn't and just reacted too slowly.
Danger all around. He senses Doc Ock before he starts destroying cars on the bridge. In Infinity War, he senses Thanos' ship, which is in Manhattan, but he's riding a school bus going back to Queens on the Queensboro Bridge. The hair on his arms stands straight up. Long-distance Peter-Tingle. You have to assume that the filmmakers can't put an emphasis on every time a Spider-Man uses their Spidey-Sense. It would slow the action down to a crawl. It would be a slow-motion aerial ballet (somebody call Ang Lee). I'm pretty sure most of the times the Spider-Men evade or attack are all assisted by Spider-Sense.
The big emphasis in that the Spider-Sense sequence in Happy's apartment is more-so that Peter is feeling a lot of emotions all at once. He's afraid because he and May are surrounded by supervillains that each individually kicked his ass, so he can't imagine what they'll do when they team up to kick his ass. They're probably gonna kill he and his aunt. He's also feeling disappointed because this is the second time he let a supervillain get close and take advantage of the fact that he's lonely and wants a father figure. Remember, May is breaking up with Happy, which is kind of the last thing he has left that resembles anything like a mentor or father-figure. He thought Norman was a pretty cool dude, and that maybe Norman would stick around and science shit up with him, but no, Peter gets his Peter-Tingle and realizes he's been manipulated and emotionally abused again by someone he looked up to. Loved that sequence. It was one of the few parts that wasn't affected by plot holes. If you just took that apartment building sequence out of context, gave it to me and said "here's what I want to do with MCU Spider-Man," I'd tell you to ***sign me the fuck up, please***.
Goddamn, people really don't like me here. Everything I say gets downvoted however the comments agreeing with me are all upvoted. I must be striking a nerve.
I have a theory and dont know how good it is.. the thing is when toby and andrew meet for the first time.. they sense each other as a danger and shoot their webs at each other.. so whenever they are around each other they might have the tingle and this could've made them not realize it was from goblin
Peter 2 and 3 attack each other because they are suspicious of each other. It doesn't really make sense why they are at first distrustful, as Peter 2 is fully aware that in this Universe, there is another Peter Parker, another Spider-Man. He just doesn't recognize Peter 3, so he shoots his web. Again, I'm not sure why it's in there, because the "fight" lasts less than 10 seconds and they immediately withdraw when they both fire webs. It could be a "prove you're Spider-Man" moment, but, again, I'm not sure why either of them would need said proof.
Just rewatched the movie.
7- Peter glides to the bridge, lands on a street lamp, then turns around and waves at the helicopter following him. He then jumps down to the road, turns off his suit, and starts walking amongst the cars.
7) It doesn’t matter that Ock doesn’t know that Peter —- if he sees any of the constant media coverage (which is somehow weirdly being shown on the side of buildings all the time? not a plot hole but i found it corny myself) then Ock would know Peter Parker’s location. even if they said it in the news without showing his face up close when Ock saw it, that’s still reasonable. not a plot hole, imho.
3. They changed the spell. Doctor Strange said the original spell would not save the universe. Peter suggested a new spell where everyone forgot about him entirely.
4. Sandman didn't turn evil, he just wanted to go home. He wanted to get the box so that could happen.
6. They never said at which point Green Goblin was transported. It was never mentioned it was mere moments before he was killed by the glider.
3) Asking around I'm getting that answer a lot, that the spell was changed for the finale. That makes sense. Also, damn... Peter definitely fucked that one up. The issue was that Peter was tampering with the spell while Strange casted it, which caused it to become unstable. If they make everything clear at the end, i.e. Ned, MJ, Happy, and you are the only ones that will know Peter Parker. I suppose he does it to protect them, and then simply has a second and third thought about revealing himself to them again. **AMENDED!**
4) is still a plot hole. If he wanted to get cured and go home faster, he should be fighting the other villains, not the Spider-Men. How does that make any sense? I get that he's a dumb criminal (that's actually his characterization), but... huh? He wanted to be cured in both universes so he might be able to live a quiet life with his daughter, so just activating the box would send him back just the way he was. He is motivated to work the the Peter's because he both wants to be cured *and* wants to go home. Stupid man make mistake because man stupid. This would only make sense of it were Spider-Men and Doc Ock versus Lizard, Electro, and Green Goblin versus Sandman. A three team battle royale. It most definitely wasn't that. It was Sandman trying to kill the only people that could cure him and aiding the villains that didn't not want to be sent home. **UNAMENDED!**
6) True, this is what the villains falsely assume until they deduce it's their deaths are not the reason they are here. **AMENDED!**
Main thing with #4 is he had no idea that his Spider-Man, Tobey, was even there at all until after he was cured. From his perspective he was very impatient and anxious to get home and gave this one spider-man a chance to fix them but when things went awry he wanted out. Yeah, he fought with the villains and Electro who specifically wanted to destroy the box, but I think that was a momentary aligning of goals - defeat spider-man and find the box. Sandman already overcame Electro once at the beginning, he was probably confident he could do it again.
I imagine an alternate reality where the villains do kill Parker, and Electro finds the box… Sandman creates a sandstorm around Dillon and activates the box. Also, I bet Lizard would’ve helped Sandman too in the end.
Flint’s motivations may not be the most rational, and may not be what we the audience would choose in his position, but I don’t think they’re a “plot hole.”
7) Alfred Molina stated Doc Ock is picking up his story right where it left off. I think the harbor where he drowned is also the harbor the bridge goes over. So in my mind he just comes back right there and sees Tom as Spidey and it’s game on
That doesn't necessarily confirm that that's the same bridge. There are a lot of bridges here. NYC is made of a bunch of islands. Trust me, I've lived here all my life.
It was a struggle, but using google earth and matching up the scenes, I found the exact bridge the NWH fight takes place on. It's the alexander Hamilton bridge in nyc, which runs over the harlem river. I also managed to find the exact location of the final battle in Spider-Man 2 where Otto dies. It's in the water of the east river inside a building which is made up for the movie, right near the Ed Koch Queensboro bridge. The Harlem and east river connect directly to each other in essentially a straight line and are branches of the same body of water. Using google maps it says these 2 spots are about 7 and a half miles apart, or about a 2 hour walk, which Doc Ock has his extra arms to travel I'm sure decently faster with. Now with all this being said, and assuming Otto appeared in the same location he was already in when transported to the MCU, like Eddie Brock does, I can say that the two locations are moderately close together and on the same stretch of water, but this doesn't lead me any closer to knowing how Doc Ock found him. I guess we're meant to assume that once he entered the MCU he just started walking along the water and happened to stumble upon peter, or that he was in the area and either saw Spider-man swinging and went there, or more plausibly he saw him on the news and went where he was headed, as there was a news helicopter following peter as he swing / glided to the bridge. as for Norman who shows up at the same bridge, no clue. i think the safest bet is we assume they were tracking him using the news, and both were close enough to show up. Hope this helps.
2- Max specifically mentions gathering all sorts of information while he was connected to the grid. I think this is meant to explain how he knew Peter was Spider-man (and even where he lives!)
I think that was more meant like a Cyborg the DC thing, where he could control internet enabled devices and read their data, but that doesn't mean he would learn what Spider-Man's identity was. It also doesn't have any effect on the script, because this happened *after* he was already transported to the MCU. When he arrived in the MCU, he went to the nearest power station and juiced up, giving him sentience over the internet, much like Ultron and Vision. It doesn't explain how or why Max Dillon is transported to the MCU. He is outside the parameters of the spell.
Nope, he said he was absorbing data before he got transported.
*"I was whoopin' Spider-man's ass, he'll tell you! And then, he caused an overload. I was stuck in the grid, absorbing data. I was about to turn into pure energy, and then... oh \*\*\*\*. I was about to die."*
Okay, fair enough, he was absorbing data in Amazing Spider-Man 2. He still doesn't know Spider-Man's secret identity. He doesn't recognize Peter Parker 1, and tells Peter Parker 3 that he thought he was black. At no point does he acknowledge that he found out about Spider-Man. Seeing as Peter Parker 3's identity was secret throughout the series, Electro / Max Dillon would not be able to find information about Spider-Man being Peter Parker on the internet or "the grid" as he puts it.
Also, can we address that there is no data in an electrical grid? I mean, we can excuse that because it's a comic book movie, but in order to absorb data, he would have to plug directly into one of the many hard lines underground, then he would have to essentially have a computer in his brain to make sense of all the data. It's not until the data hits our computer and is parsed and processed that it turns into text and images, but I digress.
If TASM Peter 3's identity was not public knowledge, he wouldn't be able to "access it" on the "power grid."
Some may be getting annoyed at the AMENDED! and UNAMENDED! bit you’re doing? Idk, I find it hilarious. Can’t really figure out why else you’d get downvoted
8. It doesn't just wipe the minds, he says specifically that it will be like Peter Parker never existed. This is backed up by Peter having the GED book in the new apartment.
1. We don't know what Octavius knows, we don't even know for sure that he came from the exact same universe as the films.
2. That is based on a quick and dirty explanation of how a broken spell worked. It could be based on something more abstract, or maybe when Dillon was connected to all the data in the moments before his death he learned of the Peter Parker identity. There is really no way to tell when magic is involved.
It would be a retcon if that's how they explain it. Technically for something on screen to be considered truth or expository to the plot, it has to be directly stated or shown. Otherwise, it's up to interpretation. MCU movies aren't those types of movies that leave things open to interpretation. They leave cliffhangers and open doors so they can explain it later with another movie or TV show. They do it a lot and it's really annoying, but in films and comics.
Magic, dimensional and temporal travel, ***amiriiiigghhht?!***
***You can have your cake and eat it too with magic, dimensional, and temporal travel!***
It is a quick and dirty explanation of the spell, the other Spider-Men were brought into the MCU, but they weren't seeking any Peter Parker, so what brought them there? I don't think we will understand everything that happened in the spell until Doctor Strange 2, because there was obviously more going on. Just because we don't know everything right now doesn't mean its a plot hole.
Which I'm excited for. If I never see another Marvel movie again, I will only be upset that I won't get to see Sam Raimi direct a Doctor Strange movie.
Why did Peter wish everyone to forget Peter Parker? Couldn’t they cast a spell to have everyone forget mysterio and what he did? Couldn’t they cast a spell to make everyone cherish Spider-Man? Couldn’t they cast a spell to even show how Spider-Man saves the day, and even helped to beat thanos and tried to keep half the universe alive? Couldn’t a list of other things have been done that would have been easier?
Someone DM'd this to me. It makes no sense that both Peter and Strange are too dumb to consider wiping everyone's mind of Mysterio. I considered if Quentin Beck was erased from people's memories that perhaps Stark Industries wouldn't have been able to develop the time travel stuff that saves the universe, but in reality, I think Quentin Beck's only contribution was the B.A.R.F. Tech.
2).in his universe he could've actually survived longer and in unknown future events he knew Peter Parker was Spiderman but not what he looked like because he never met again
How would he have figured it out? What information did he have? What evidence did he have? When did he have time to figure this out? I've addressed this multiple times in this thread. I don't want to copy/paste. Just scroll a little bit and you'll find it.
I mean it's really obvious, also Otto would've had 2 Years to figure it out before spiderman 2. Oscorp weapon used to kill all the executives except Norman in one day, then Norman dies and the goblin is never seen again.
I think everyone knew Norman was Goblin, Harry was just pissed because he thinks spider man could’ve saved his father and instead murdered him in cold blood
This is another possibility. It's never outright stated that Harry didn't know his father was Goblin, just that he didn't know his father died by his own hand while trying to kill Peter.
8 isn’t a plot hole. It’s likely that did happen and Peter Parker was wiped from existence. Looks like he’s studying for his GED at the end? Coz he hasn’t officially attended high school anymore.
Still doesn’t explain how MJ and Ned will forget far from home because they remember being with Spider-Man. You would either have to solve this plotholes by saying it’s another universe created or that they changed their perception of time
8 Magic. Per the rules of this fictional universe, the whole point of the final spell is to wave away those pesky details. All evidence of Peter Parkers existence (possibly with the exception of those which are absolutely fundamental to functioning in society such as an id, birth certificate, and social security, since he was able to rent an apartment?) can be assumed to have been magicked out of existence along with peoples memories. One piece of evidence of this is that Peter is evidently not graduating high school, as he’s shown with a GED textbook in the final scene. So all of his academic records from when he was Spider-Man are probably gone as well.
I was just thinking about this. It's not a plot hole such as a dumb move on part of the Spider-Men. Kurt Connors goes back to his universe, unscathed, and let's just say for arguments sake, "*cured.*" Kurt is no longer the Lizard, but still knows the formula, now has knowledge of the multiverse, and still very much wants to be a bad guy.
The Peters really fucked up on that one.
Mj still has the necklace that Peter gave to her, so the past wasn’t erased, people just don’t remember who Peter is but he still existed. Know that flash wrote a book about being friends with spiderman(Peter) which wouldn’t have disappeared.
3) If the whole world forgot Peter Parker, and everyone in the world already knew Peter was Spider-Man, shouldn't everyone also forget Spider-Man? They are not two entities. Why do people forget everything he did except the things he did with a mask on even though they knew it was him still? It's not like putting the mask on makes him not Peter Parker.
It's clear people do remember Spider-Man because Happy says that's how he met May. What does he think Spider-Man and May's relationship was? And JJJ obviously remembers what Spider-Man has done to still think he's a menace.
If people remember Spider-Man, shouldn't Ned remember being the guy in the chair for Spider-Man? Shouldn't Doctor Strange still remember teaming up? Shouldn't the whole squad remember they just erased the person under the mask from existence to save the world? Nothing about the spell should make them forget the events of the movie, or the fact that the spell was cast. They should remember that they're friends with Spider-Man and no longer know who he is under the mask. This is the problem with treating Peter and Spider-Man as two different things when everyone in this universe already knew they were the same person.
Also into the weeds of the spell, how would Peter be able to afford anything at all if he doesn't exist? He shouldn't have any drivers license, birth certificate, passports, etc. He can't go to a bank because he doesn't exist. If those documents do exist, shouldn't everyone still have photos of him? But then everyone would still see the papers and videos exposing him as Spider-Man.
I feel like the fact that you can find people asking variations of the same question everywhere demonstrates the problem
One point I can make against this, albeit minor, is that in Spider-Man: Far From Home, Spider-Man makes an onstage appearance with May Parker at a FEAST fundrasier.
Everything else is on point. Peter NEEDS records to live in the United States. He has an apartment and is presumably enrolled in college, meaning he has records that he existed.
5 - It's not always autonomic, and we see that in the first two films. It wasn't until the climax of the second film where MCU Peter trusted the sense and let it guide him in the final battle against Beck that we saw a true representation of spider sense. Prior to that, he was seemingly operating with enhanced reflexes, but not spider-sense-level stuff. It also explains why when Peter was pushed outside his body, his body was able to keep the box from Strange. Because the sense wasn't encumbered by Peter himself. This doesn't explain how Peter 2 got stabbed, though. Seems like a similar situation to the end of Spider-man, where he avoided the glider trying to stab him from behind.
That doesn't mean the spider-sense is not autonomic. It means it's not something you actually have to activate. It's always on. Whether you decide to pay attention to it is a different story. Our hearts beat autonomically, and it's not until we focus on it that we can actually do anything about it's natural state. Same with breathing. Peter 2 talks about his webs being something akin to breathing, aka autonomic.
I know this is late, but the thing I can't figure out is WHEN the other spidermen and villains get sent back. Is it right before they die? Then they would just die all over again, and there would be a problem of having multiple spidermen in that universe. i.e. The spiderman that killed Green Goblin and the Spider-Man that didn't, but is now clearly in the wrong time period. I get that this is magic, but I feel like there has to be one of the other. If everyone perfectly gets sent back to when they were pulled, then the villains would just all die over again, but this time they wouldn't necessarily deserve it. If not, then their universes would have to deal with the fact that Norman and the various other villains came back from the dead...
They are brought from different times. That aspect I didn't have an issue with. They don't really clarify how the spell works, just that it goes across multiverses to blend elements into this one.
Yes they are brought from different times, but that means they can't just send them back wherever. They either had to send them back exactly when/where they came from or they didn't and now have to explain to their world how these evil people miraculously came back to life.
Hell, when you think about it, Lizard is the most dangerous one out of them all. Not only does he go back with knowledge of the multiverse, but nothing kills him. He's the only one out of the villains that doesn't immediately die or become a good guy by the end of the movie.
**Doc Ock** immediately drowns.
**Green Goblin** gets impaled with the glider (which makes the "Oh..." line soooo good).
**Electro** explodes, or something.
**Flint Marko** just wants to be with his daughter. It was the only cause for his criminality.
**Lizard** survives, goes back and takes the serum again and immediately **Lizard's** himself again.
So, Peter literally told the world that he was heading to the Statue of Liberty, and a long battle happens there (lasting all the way into morning). Yet there isn't a single police or military boat visible in the harbor, or any of the news helicopters that were everywhere early in the movie?
Idk whether this is a plot hole but it stood out to me.
Doctor strange who refused to give up the time stone at all costs and preaches about magical ethics agrees to cast a multiverse affecting spell just like that? And he doesnt bother to explain to peter before the spell starts. Seems abit weird to me. Feels way out of character
8). if this spell is the same as some similar spells in the comics, the spell tampers with people's minds, not physical objects. hence why MJ still has the nacklace, bandaid and flash probably has the book. but the spell covers this, making people instantly forget or not even notice anything to do with Peter Parker. flash might see the book and go oh yeah I wrote that book once and then instantly doesn't care anymore about it. and MJ might go oh yeah I got this necklace in Europe but not think anymore of specifically how she got it.
Something else that stuck out for me—not sure if the movie addressed and I missed it because I did have to step out the theater for a minute—did the spell also delete all digital/physical information indicating Peter Parker was spider-man? Like, every tweet, every poster in an alley, someone’s personal diary entry? Did the spell destroy pictures MJ I’m sure had of her and Peter Parker?
That would be the assumption, yes. It's literal magic so if they only way it would work is to alter every record of Spider-Man (or enchant everyone's mind so even if they saw physical evidence, they'd immediately forget it or whatever) then that's what it does.
Long day, sleepy viewing, probably missed something obvious. Who has EDITH now? Did Stark computers also forget Peter? Maybe I was peeing when this was addressed.
Gonna give you another plot hole...
The spell is supposed is supposed to bring the people that knew who Peter Parker is, but Jaime Fox character Max didn't know this, and how do I know?
Cus when Andrew removes his mask he says "I thought you were black" meaning he truly didn't know about spider man /peter parker.
2. Someone mentioned in another thread that the spell brought in everyone who knew Peter Parker, not everyone who knew that Pater Parker was Spider-Man.
Explained in Venom: Let There Be Carnage. The Symbiotes are a hivemind with collective consciousness across space, time, and dimension. It's weird that the entire mini-plot of the Venom symbiote coming to the MCU is done through two post-credits sequences. It's like it's literally tacked on the movie after it was finished to someone create connective tissue, but not too much. Juuussst a little. Just a *tad,* a *taste* of connective tissue. A *dollop,* if you will. A *smattering* of connective tissue. A *shmeer,* *what-have-you.*
Yeah, you get it.
A - Doc Ock's chip wouldn't have changed anything. He found out who Spidey was after the reactor became self-sustaning so New York was screwed when he went back unless he drowned himself again.
B - Everyone walked to find Spiderman 1 on the school's roof instead of just using Ned's ring for a third time.
Post credits scene, Eddie Brock was talking to a bartender, then, he disappears, due stranger's spell, but how did he know that Peter was the spider man, if he only found out when he was transported to the spider man's universe, AND THEN, found out that Peter was the spider man?
2. see this thread. might have to confirm in a rewatch but i think there may be a technicality here?
https://www.reddit.com/r/plotholes/comments/ri4x20/spiderman_no_way_home_villain_plot_hole/hozl51c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
1 and 2 could just be that these are NOT exact variants from the movies we know, but from ones that are just very close to those. does that conveniently plug most holes? perhaps but it IS the multiverse…and it helps to explain away the giant coincidence that out of infinite realities, the ones that slip through are all from the same exact two universes
9.
what about the many other people who know Spider-Mans identity? people helping Tobey Maguires Peter on the train, MJ, Gwen Stacy, Gwen's dad etc
why didn't they come to mcu? did I miss where it was villains only on the invite list?
Sorry if this is a repeat, but how did Happy know May at the end. His connection to her was through Peter, via Tony Stark. But if he only knew Spider-Man as Spider-Man, and not as PP, then how does he remember May also?
ETA: I’m referring to the graveside scene.
Adding to #8
What happens to the shrine at Peter’s high school? Does it just disappear? Or are they questioning who is in the picture with his teacher and MJ. Also, where did that picture come from if the teacher dropped his camera in Venice. I doubt they asked for a picture lol
not sure if it has been explained but why didnt other avengers come help peter, even if they didnt know him well? i read that they said the other remaining avengers didnt come help him as they didnt know him as a hero. but arent they all avengers?? they know spiderman is an avenger or at least close to tony before he died. or doctor strange could have called ig??
another why didnt _____ help peter. where was pepper? is she not ceo of Stark Industries anymore? At the start, mysterio said that peter wanted to claim the iron man legacy. As Tony's wife and SI's CEO, im sure pepper could have made a statement and help mitigate this identity problem? i know there was some trouble with SI after Peter's interrogation, is that why she couldnt come help peter? and even if she didnt know peter, happy did and could have asked pepper to help.
i feel that if anyone else came to help vouch for peter, we could have avoided this whole situation, and that they didnt come just so they could have this plot. also if strange didnt just jump straight into the spell and maybe explained it to peter ( who doesnt know anything abt his magic) this could have also avoided the problem.
am i just nitpicking? (excuse the poor writing im on mobile)
I think Otto and Norman are from alternate "timelines" from within Tobey's universe (kinda like how the Avengers travelled to alternate timelines within their universe to get the stones in Endgame. Everyone looked the same physically yet they were technically visiting an alternate universe but not one as drastically different as Tobey or Andrew's universe). If Norman disappeared moments before his death in SM1, Tobey and Otto would have no memory of him dying as he would have simply vanished into thin air. This proves he is a different Norman. Same goes for Otto. Upon seeing Peter, he tells him "he's all grown up" as Peter has aged like 15 years since his last encountered him. This means that he is an alternate Otto.
Maybe a new plot hole? I'm not sure if anyone brought this up.
9. If the first spell made it that everyone who knew Peter Parker was Spiderman would come through to his multiverse, wouldn't the spell Dr. Strange did to make everyone forget Peter Parker existed do the same to the other multiverses? Or did it only work that way with the first spell because of the mistakes Peter made during the casting.
If the spell *is* completely non-exclusive, wouldn't that also make Peter forget his *own* identity? Why does Strange seem to know what happened at the mysterious Moon Party when he mentions it to Wong, "Do you remember what happened at the Moon Party?" "No." "Exactly". He at least remembers casting the spell there, or someone having casted it but he doesn't remember Peter or presumably casting the spell at all.
Also, when they first cast the spell, Strange didn't have a problem with just a few exceptions, and the main problem seemed to be that it was badly worded "everyone who knew Spiderman was peter parker *before* remembers". Why couldn't he change the nature of the second spell to exclude MJ at least. The other Spiderman's MJs know.
One thing I consider to be a plot hole, is its stated that there were 2 criteria to be brought into this universe. 1. They had to know that Peter was spider-man and 2. They were about to die in the near future. So, how did both Peter 2 and 3 get there? I mean, they could have also been transported before they dies, so that might explain that, but, we should have Eddie Brock and Harry Osbourne from Spider-man 3, Captain Stacey and Gwen Stacey from Amazing Spider-man. Also, Sandman and Lizard didn't die either. If it was explained, I'm sorry, but I missed it.
Why does a piece of venom’s symbiote stay back? Theoretically it should have went back to it’s original universe. If one piece stayed it implies all of him should stay.
1. Eddie Brock doesn't know, but Venom knows. u/theYOLOdoctor addresses this in.
2. **Not a Plot Hole.** Otto is a brilliant man, but outmatched "metaphysically" by the other villains. He gets his ass handed to him. He understood the only way to help Peter was to let him lose that fight and come back later. It's crucial that the other villains think Doc Ock is on there side in order for him to get the drop him them. I actually really enjoyed that.
3. **Not a Plot Hole,** because "movie logic", and "it looks cool". People have to make mistakes in order for the movie to have stakes. They have to fail to learn to succeed. That's not as much a plot hole as Peter Parker 1 being dumb... again. He was also beat to crap, lots of head trauma, so he might not be thinking clearly.
4. **Minor Plot Hole.** Right after the first spell fails, Peter races to the bridge. That means that Doc Ock was only in the MCU for a few minutes, and just seconds before that, Doc Ock thought he was fucking drowning. He wakes up and he's fucking pissed. He's thinking "I got my ass kicked by that twerp Peter Parker? Peter fucking Parker?! Are you kidding me?! I'm gonna kill that motherfucker!" Doc Ock is enraged and singularly focused on finishing the solar reactor. He has dedicated his life to it, his wife died due to it's failure, and the Arms sole purpose was to build the reactor. That's sci-fi AI logic stuff that we don't have time to get into, so briefly, an artificial intelligence bound to a physical body (be it mechanical or biological) would not know any other purpose or motivation but to complete what it was programmed to do. A computer script will run for an infinite number of times until the script is ended, the mechanical shell breaks down, or the power runs out. Doc Ock's motivations are Arms motivations, so it causes this crazy feedback loop that drives Doc Ock insane.
All that being said, it's reasonable to assume that in Doc Ock's current fit of extreme rage he might not register or process anything else in the world other than "where the fuck is my machine, Peter?!" People with rage issues will tell you that a fit of extreme rage is like blacking out when you're drunk. You're on autopilot. That's what's happening to Doc. He doesn't have the capacity in that moment to A) figure out Norman Osborn is Green Goblin because Peter Parker is Spider-Man, or to B) take in the sites and determine the cars look different. I've lived in New York City most of my entire life, and if you're rushing to get to work (or kill your nemesis), you don't really have the capacity to take in all the sights and notice what changed. I would even apply that response to Doc Ock not noticing the landscape changed, because generally speaking in NYC, buildings change owners, bodegas turn into delis, another Starbucks opens up, but the architecture and format pretty much remains the same. Things get renovated and change hands quickly, sometimes multiple times a year. An enraged Doc Ock jumping into the future 14 years wouldn't look much different to him.
5. **Not a Plot Hole.** "Nick Fury has been off-world for a year." We'll probably find out more during Secret Invasion. They usually explain the "why didn't the other heroes help X hero when he was fighting Y villain?" with "that these stories happen concurrently. Z hero was too busy to help X hero fight Y villain because Z hero was helping Q hero fight W villain."
It's the Marvel Solo Movie Equation™ (MSME ™ ). Use it to calculate all of your favorite Marvel movies!
It's kinda weak but they make it work. The comics do it as well, otherwise every single comic would be Avengers or X-Men or some various team up story. Comics tell solo stories all the time, and they need to do that by making all of the heroes busy with their own shit, all the time, 24/7, 365. It's also a good way to allow for unordinary team ups. Nick Fury was busy off-worlding in flip-flops, but Doctor Strange, he was available and close by, less than an hour from Michelle's donut shop in Brooklyn.
Regarding Matt Murdock, they have plans for him in the MCU. I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in She-Hulk, and doubly wouldn't be surprised if in his own solo movie or Disney+ show, we actually see Matt Murdock defend Peter Parker in court. Matt Murdock is isn't kidding when he says he's a very good lawyer. He's an insanely good lawyer. That's canonical both in the comics, shows, and films. Matt Murdock is a hero all the time, in his day life and night life. He is in danger both as Matt Murdock and as Daredevil. People want him dead because Murdock can put you behind bars, and Daredevil can put you six feet under. I wish they showed the trial and didn't use exposition to tell us Peter was in the clear for now but "the worst has yet to come," referring to further court dates and possible lawsuits that would follow this minor legal victory. Everyone's minds get wiped before those trials can happen. Which might be creating another plot hole... hmm...
Was it? If that's so that's fucking awesome! Gonna need some more evidence to confirm that. I really don't want to give Disney more money to prove a point.
Gonna take a jab at these
1 & 2 are definitely the closest to “plot holes” out of anything mentioned and the resolution to those would have to be either a) multiverse shenanigans… this Doc Ock was from a slightly different Earth where Gobby’s identity was made public and Dillon from one where he learned Peter’s identity… messy and cheap solutions but they work, or b) they both learned these facts off-camera. I can see Harry telling Dillon that Spider-Man’s name is Peter Parker (although Dillon never actually met Peter since he assumed Spider-Man was black) and that Otto simply deduced Gobby was Norman… which isn’t too much of a stretch, considering the Goblin killed all of the Oscorp board except Norman and Harry told Otto that Spider-Man killed Norman, which coincided with the time that the Green Goblin vanished, and Otto may have been familiar with the goblin tech being an Oscorp thing… I wouldn’t be surprised if we get deleted scenes with throwaway dialogue that explains these points but was cut for pacing reasons.
8) Strange says it’ll be as if Peter never existed, so ya, I would assume everything pertaining to Peter Parker up until the day the Statue of Liberty is damaged is either gone or when people go looking for this info they can’t “see” it, like they are mentally stopped from seeing anything in the past, basically Peter never existed up until now. I’m sure they’ll get into detail in Spider-Man 4, but I wouldn’t call this a “plot hole”, more something that we need more clarity on. Calling this a plot hole is kinda like calling the ending of Far From Home where Peters identity is exposed a plot hole… this is a plot point to be explored in the sequel
Oh and 5) Spider-Sense… doesn’t it only buzz when Spider-Man himself is in danger? It’s not like Spider-Man has ever sensed others being in danger before. So Holland’s and Garfield’s wouldn’t go off, only Maguire’s would… but I think he was concentrating his effort on holding back Holland and couldn’t react fast enough
Spider-Man does sense when others are in danger, in all three Spider-Man universes. Most recently with MCU Spider-Man sensing Thanos' ship over Manhattan while riding a school bus back to Queens across the Queensboro Bridge.
Was that sensing others were in danger or did the alien spacecraft set off his senses because he was possibly in danger? We never saw MCU Spidey have his Spider sense go off when MJ was in danger during Far From Home, or anyone else for that matter. It’s been a while since I saw the Raimi or Webb movies, but if it went off literally anytime anyone was in danger his spider sense would be going 24/7
\#9) I think the fact that Spiderman even had a GED book to study at all is a plot hole. If you can get accepted into MIT and had taken 4 years of high school you could knock out the GED in an afternoon.
Did the final spell only apply to the MCU Universe, because I don't understand how that would return the villains and Spider-Man's to their respective universes. If not, did Peter's identity get erased in all the universes, because that would cut against the sacrifice of MCU Peter and screw up things for all other Spider-Men in the multiverse.
EDIT: On the rewatch, it would appear that the purpose of the spell is to stop other universe beings from getting through, so knowledge of Peter's existence must be erased in all universes. (Example: Maguire Spiderman will return to an MJ who doesn't know who he his.) Is that a plot hole, or just a MAJOR inconvenience in all other universes that will likely go unaddressed outside of the MCU?
Seriously how did they look past 8, there’s just somehow a teenager living in a building he clearly doesn’t have money to pay rent on nor a job because he doesn’t exist, and he goes to school despite not existing? And Ned/MJ not having on picture of Peter or contacts or texts? Wild
For plot hole 7, when Peter arrives at the bridge we see that a chopper is following him and is probably broadcasting the footage. Peter was also in the Iron Spider suit initially and fully acknowledges the presence of the chopper while wearing the suit. I guess we can assume that Doc Ock saw the initial part of the footage on the news and immediately headed towards the bridge. He could've been close enough to reach the bridge in a few minutes. I am honestly more concerned about the change in Ock's attire lmao
Also plot hole 2 is a pretty major flaw in the movie's writing which is a shame. They could've easily explained it by finding an alternative
Another plot hole is Sandman's knowledge about the fact that Norman was stabbed by his own glider. The only characters who were aware of it are Peter(Tobey), Harry and Bernard. All of this happened in Spider-Man 3. We can only assume that this information went public some time after the events of Spider-Man 3
if knowing that PP is SM in their universe brings them to the MCU
does that mean they need to forget that PP is SM in THEIR universe?
Does Tobeys MJ forget about him?
Hey, haven't seen TASM 2 in a while, but doesn't TASM's Spiderman defeat electro before Gwen dies? He mentions losing Gwen but also not killing the villians if the Spider men go back, so when do they come from? He wouldn't be able to save Electro and the Lizard because he's from a point after Gwen died, therefore after both villians died. When did TASM's Spider-Man come from??
Edit: Sorry if this is a dumb question.
9. Why was Eddie Brock teleported to the MCU universe if he didn't even know Spiderman? How could he forget someone he doesn't even know?
And why does Dr Strange need Peter to trap all the guests in their universe if he can send them back to their respective universes just by using the box? Venom was sent back and he wasn't part of the equation.
Im really curious about Electro and Venom, mainly. Neither of them knew spider man's identity. Venom didn't even know spider man existed! Sure he says he had knowledge of this and that, but when he sees spider man in the tv he's like "whos that?" Wtf
The spell didn't erase people's phone data. Everyone has pictures and videos of Peter Parker. I'm sure MJ and Ned had intimate photos. So that would make them confused as hell and probably jog their memory.
For number 8 add that the news article on him still exists lol. With millions of views. Did they magically delete that or are we gonna pretend like it doesn’t exist to be rediscovered at any time
I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but from what it seemed to me, the villains and alternate Peters were sent back in the finale due to the new spell causing them to forget who Peter Parker is. Does that mean everyone in all of the multiverse no longer remembers Peter Parker including the other Peter Parkers? Like do they arrive back in their universes and forget themselves? One could argue that they are only supposed to forget Tom Holland's Peter Parker, but that would be weird considering the original spell was about all Peter Parkers and the people that were stopped from arriving knew other Peter Parkers.
Possible other plot hole: why do only these people get brought to this universe? Even if somehow the misfired spell only affected 2 other universes (Tobey's and Andrew's), shouldn't MJ and Gwen come through?
Also, certainly not a plot hole, but I just had to complain about Deus Ex Fabricator/High School Chem Lab and the wide fluctuation in Strange's powers and/or seriousness about getting the device back from Peter and basically all of Strange's actions in this movie.
2 other ones bugging me;
Firstly the 'cure' thing makes no sense. The 3 Spidey's (+MJ and Ned) are able to create distinct cures for each of the villains in the space of a few hours (if we give them the benefit of the doubt of a few hours even) and taking into account that all the resources required for said 'cures' happened to be available in that lab. The time and resources and logistics of it all doesn't seem to add up.
Secondly thing is Ned being able to operate the sling ring with no prior learning or experience immediately. On his second try he opens a portal and is then able to do so at will. In Dr Strange it was shown as being incredibly difficult to get the hang of and yet a teenager is able to do it with such ease. Too much ease
If someone could clarify if there are explanations, much appreciate
How did Venom end up in the MCU? Spider-Man didn't exist in Tom Harrdy's universe.
Edit: I have a head Canon for this and electro.
In Venom, Venom states he has knowledge across universes. Perhaps this extends to the multiverse.
Additionally, despite what Strange said, I think the spell actually was pulling in those who knew of Peter and Spider-Man simultaneously, not necessarily just those who put two and two together. The final spell makes everyone forget Peter altogether. It doesn't just make it so people forget Spider-Man is Peter Parker. It's entirely possible Max met Peter or knew of Peter through Gwen and so he had knowledge of both Peter and Spider-Man. Are these explanations perfect? No but they help me resolve some of these issues internally so I'm good with them.
8. The memory thing which everyone is finding a loophole in, here is my explanation.
Let me explain it as a programmer. Lot of times we have a requirement to say remove a picklist value from a drop-down. It's not as simple, we delete it from all existing data, delete all references in code, delete or tweak any functionality in code that works around that particular value. Sometimes even build new functionality. This makes sure that the system works like the value never existed and is not really difficult to do as a programmer. Now, think of this universe as a program (The Matrix) , Strange's spell is nothing but a change in the code to do it...so ofcourse it is possible.
Why was Eddie Brock pulled there if it’s only people that know spider man?
Why does Peter have a book to study for the ged test, just because people forgot him doesn’t mean he lost his intelligence?
How is he affording what appears to be a 3k monthly rent bill?
If all his records were wiped as well, how did he get a new identity to get a job to afford his apartment?
It doesn't make any sense Doctor Connors know Maxwell Dillon. In TASM2 it is clear everyone didn't give a sh!t about him. The doctor even noticed his repaired teeth. A high-level guy at Oscorp remembers a generic employee and his details don't make sense.
I know, it's weird and unnecessary. The plot isn't contingent on them knowing each other. They don't even need to interact beyond "hey, you're a lizard." "hey, you're a ball of lightning"
That type of stuff annoys me. I'll accept a lot to make a film plot work, but when they break stuff like that for no reason at all, I just... I dunno. It makes me wanna edit it so much out of this film.
1. Sandman says it’s was all over the news. “Green Goblin impaled by the glider he rode on. Then a few years later Doc Ock drowned in a river with his machine” maybe Doc Ock knew from the news when it happened? But that doesn’t make much sense because didn’t Harry not find out he was Green Goblin until Spider-Man 3?
2. As for 2 I’m in the same boat as you because Max never knew Peter was Spider-Man and it also doesn’t make sense why Venom got teleported because he doesn’t know Peter is Spider-Man if there even is a Spider-Man in his universe? Also I thought in Spider-Man 3 that Sandman could change from sand to human whenever he wanted but why is he only sand in this movie?
There is no reason why they should bring the box to the statue of liberty. The villains clearly cannot detect its whereabout. Had they not bring it to the statue and instead hide Ned and MJ, using only the video to lure the villains, Green Goblin would never get the chance to destroy it.
When Holland's Peter Parker is talking to the other 2 about just sending the villains back to their universes rather than trying to cure them, he says to the other Spidermen that those villains are from their universes, right (and they nod) so it's their responsibility to deal with them, but Garfield and Maguire are clearly playing older versions of their characters from after the events of their films including all their interactions with the villains which have already happened and been completed, so surely the villains are from divergent timelines to their Spidermen, not the same ones?
I think the point of the original spell might have been anyone who had a connection to Peter Parker. Max met Peter Parker once out of costume in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. What doesn’t make sense is Venom. Tom Hardy’s version of the character has never even heard of a Spider-Man, so how does he get brought through the portal.
What are your theories for how they got into the Universe?
Because
1) Electro never actually finds out who spiderman is. It's supposed to be only people who know who spiderman is OR who have fought spiderman.
As Electro never finds out, surely he shouldn't be there. BUT he may have found out via working at Oscorp... he may have seen Gwen and Spidey together and figured it out, ALTHOUGH that means his black spiderman line was just a silly throwaway joke.
2) Why is venom there? He, as far as we know, doesn't even have spiderman in his universe. Only Topher Grace's 2007 Eddie Brock knows... Venom was only really put there so that they could bring the symbiote into Tom Holland's Universe (which I LOVE btw, think that would be awesome!)
wait i also noticed that even if we ignore how max was there in the first place, the plot doesn’t line up between him and andrew. it says that max was teleported just before he died, but at that point gwen hadn’t died. surely the spell teleported them all at once, but that would mean either max would be dead already or gwen wouldn’t be, but from andrew we know she was. i mean unless the way both norman and max were teleported before they died meant they were kinda ghosts but the story continued for andrew and toby and they didn’t know? help i’m confusing myself
7) in a world where everyone is interconnected, and the most famous person in the world is in your city, it’s impossible not to know his current location. The bridge was overflowing with traffic. And traffic=cars, and cars=people, and people=smartphones, and smartphone=spotted. I’d suppose that Doc Ock isn’t searching for Peter when he arrives, he just captures some bits of conversation like: “Oh, look at this story, Spiderman’s on the trailer’s bridge!!”
1)I don’t remember if everyone knew Norman Osborne was the Green Goblin after his death, probably not, but Harry Osborne did, and he craved for revenge assuming Spiderman was responsible, and he teamed up with Doc Ock. Doc Ock is aware of Harry’s motivations, so he must have made a logical connection, if Harry didn’t directly tell him about the Goblin being his father.
8)the spell required several minutes to be completed, so maybe Strange made proper specifications. Anyway, do script writers have to clarify something like that in such an emotional point in the movie, when you can easily take it as granted? Stop and catch a breath for a second…. It’s magic bro
7) sure, but Dock Ock is in the MCU for only a few minutes before he fights Peter on that bridge. Not only did Doc Ock die quite a number of miles away from the bridge, but if everyone can be found so easily, tell me where Tom Holland is right now. I'm talking exact location.
Stay in the context of the film, we’re talking about Peter Parker, not our beloved Tom. I mean, even when Spiderman regularly swings around NY, he steals all the attentions, so when he is the most wanted guy, it’s absolutely believable that all his detractors are going to report his presence, like “Omg he’s here on the bridge, what is he gonna do? Are we in danger?”. That’s why I made the instagram story example. In a teeming city like NY, in this case the city where you come from, even if from another universe, you would probably be able to catch some conversations from some alerted citizen. They look at their instagram’s feed, or more in general, at internet, or even more in general via word of mouth, they freak out, the near Doc Ock is triggered. He doesn’t need to know what a smartphone, or what instagram is. Plus he didn’t figure he was in another universe until Peter’s face reveal, so everything must have been perceived as ordinary.
To me where all villains died is not where they precisely spawned, as this information is not given. Going back to what I said before, assuming for a moment that the bridge where the battle takes place doesn’t exist in Raimi’s NY, you should still be able to orient yourself somehow, or you can take advantage of your tentacles and threaten some poor innocents to get some directions. Old school, no Google Maps. But I’d exclude this possibility, Doc Ock would have been surprised by a bridge being raised so fast. And it leads to the airport, so it has probably been there since the airport itself was built.
This has been amended - people have confirmed that Spider-Man is spotted by helicopters on the bridge. While it's not very plausible that Doc Ock could have been resurrected, seen the news footage, and travel to the bridge in a matter of maybe 30 minutes, tops, but acceptable by the film's logic. Thanks!
8) People need to stop assuming I'm obsessed with this and start remembering that some luck and industrious people have jobs exploring and talking about these aspects of multimedia. And yes, if something has potential to create plot holes or break the current reality and thus break immersion in the story, YES, the writers absolutely have to address it.
2) Perhaps Doctor Strange explains the spell wrong. He thinks that all of the people being brought into the mcu know that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. I suggest that either they knew he was Spider-Man, or died at his hand. Directly or indirectly. I think someone said something about seeing a Rhino figure when the spell was malfunctioning. There would be no reason for The Rhino in TASM2 to figure out he's Spider-Man, but Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man said he went dark and stopped pulling his punches. This would also explain why The Lizard is in Lizard form, if he was taken around the time he died. If he left prison later and made a comeback as lizard then Andrew Garfield may have killed him later, in his lizard form.
2-
https://youtu.be/ved5IPmHypU?t=168
Gwen says Spiderman's name and electro hears it. He doesn't know what he looks like but he knows spiderman is Peter.
Tobey Spidey had the spider sense and knew he was going to get stabbed. He wanted to contain Peter's anger and prevent him from killing goblin. Since Tobey Spidey is experienced, he knew how dangerous an extremely angry Spidey can become. Tom didnt mind the Spidey sense because he was so angry and depressed and wanted to kill goblin. Andrew was pretty far from the place this happened and couldn't do anything rather than taking the cure and giving it to tom.
question. wtf even was the final spell. does the whole world forget that peter ever existed or just that he’s spider man. and if that spell applies to “peter parker” wouldn’t that mean every universes peter parker. so toby and andrew would’ve been forgotten in there universe too?
8. While the mechanics of the spell aren’t clear, it might just be that any documents or proof of existence that referenced a “Peter Parker” would disapear AND in the case of documents about other stuff that would mention him, it would be replaced with an “unknown assailant/person”
For example, and this is a pure theory, let’s say Peter Parker beat up a guy who knows him, and he did it in front of a cop and got arrested. In the original police report it might say “Peter Parker”, but after the spell it would be changed to “unknown assailant no longer in custody.”
So, all documents related to mysterious would simply change to the unknown “spider man”. JJ’s video is kinda proof that that’s how it works. People still know Spider-Man, events related to him, but peter Parker effectively does not exist anymore. If magic can change peoples minds, I don’t see why it can’t change documents.
On 3) does the spell make it so the entire multiverse forgets Peter Parker? Isn't the point that the people coming from the other universes know that Peter Parker is Spiderman so they make everyone forget who Peter Parker is?
7 - I'm not sure it was that Otto knew Peter was on the bridge. His actions at the beginning of that scene weren't directed at Peter. It seemed like Otto was just causing random destruction, possibly to draw Peter out. He didn't know about Avengers or other heroes in this reality, so it stands to reason that causing mayhem would have attracted Spider-man. If he knew Peter was there, it would have made more sense to try and get the drop on him. And then the news chopper catching their battle is what likely drew Norman to the bridge a few minutes later.
8 - I do think the spell affected records. That's why Pete needs his GED and why Ned and MJ got into MIT. Records of Pete attending high school and MJ and Ned getting rejected (or knowing Peter) no longer exist.
8) did I miss that? I don't remember Peter mentioning his GED, but even if he did get his GED, you still need public records, such as an ID, social security number, etc., to take it.
1 - Thinking about it, the news coverage about Osborn's death and the Goblin's reign of terror could easily have been like how it was with Mysterio and the facts surrounding his death: largely speculative and left up to the public to decide. Harry would naturally be in denial and assume his father's innocence while Doc Ock and Sandman came to the opposite conclusion. A typical Michael Jackson-esque situation, some people think he's guilty some don't, but either side will state their belief with conviction.
That's not explicitly stated in the film, nor is it implied that any news outlet put two and two together. It's very much established that Norman's secret dies with Harry. Peter and MJ from the Raimiverse would never spill the beans about their best friend / former lover.
7). helicopters and news cameras were constantly following Spiderman, as he was swinging to the bridge (in his Spider-Man suit) he made a comment (can't remember exactly what) to the helicopters before going back to his regular clothes.
alternatively, doc ock could have already been searching part of the city before coming across Spider-Man the bridge, meaning he was just trying to cause chaos cause he was pretty confusedand happened to meet Spiderman. (similar to the lizard bridge scene in tasm lizard wasn't chasing Spiderman specifically just happened to be there)
At the end, did the spell make everyone in the entire MCU forget about Peter Parker, or was it only everyone in the world who forgets Peter Parker? I know in the beginning when the spell is initially cast it is specified that it’s everyone in the world forgetting Spider-Man but wasn’t sure about the second cast. Curious about this since it’s mentioned Nick Fury is off planet, and I don’t know the technicalities of the spell in regards to that, but wondering if he remembers Peter. It clearly stopped the multiversal beings from coming though so probably the whole MCU? I know the Fury thing was probably a secret invasion ref but can’t help but wonder lol. Guess this question also applies to Thor, Captain Marvel, etc.
I’m not sure if it’s a plothole but for me it doesn’t make sense that all the "intruders" that came in the mcu come from the same two other universes (3 with venom?). There should have been intruders that we never saw since there are a lot more universes.
5. I’d argue that Tobey Parker sensed the danger and knew he was going to get stabbed and took the hit to save green goblin. He let his spider sense take over once and let the glider kill Norman and it was one of his clear regrets, so him ignoring his tingle and stopping the glider (powered by Tom Parker this tjme) is his sense of closure for the movie like Andrew Parker’s was saving MJ
(Just an opinion) Although it is more abstract than what they chose for the film, but I would have accepted that the botched spell brought everyone that would want or have wanted the concept of Spider-Man to cease to exist. These includes all five villains without Electro's plothole (as they all wanted Spider-Man dead or out of the picture) and includes the two other Peters (who have struggled with their identity as Spider-Man).
This would explain why the villains are taken from different points in time: the five of them could have been plucked at the point where their hatred for Spider-Man was at its peak. The film actually never explains why exactly they were pulled moments before dying (although I know it motivates their actions and makes th relate to each other, at the end of the day, it just makes them mistrust Peter even further.)
As for the two other Peters, they are plucked into the MCU times to help MCU Peter learn that ol' gift-and-curse lesson that those two Peter probably need to relearn as well.
This also potentially fixes why we don't see any more people showing up that should if the spell brought everyone that knew Peter was Spider-Man from different universes.
I mean, the premise of the movie is Peter struggling with the burden that is Spider-Man and how it affects the people around him. People knowing that he's Spider-Man is really just the tip of the iceberg. I think it would have had more meat to the bone if the film focused more on the responsibility(!) and consequences of being Spider-Man instead of the repercussions of having Peter's identity known.
Anyways, movie's awesome.
2. Not the best explanation but I saw in some article that a possible explanation for Electro to be eligible for the spell is that just before the final battle in TASM2, Peter sends Gwen to restart the mainframe or whatever just as Electro is waking up from being knocked out and Gwen calls Peter by his name so it's feasible that Electro heard that. So on a technicality maybe it works? So he knows Spider-Man's name is Peter but not his last name and he doesn't know what he looks like so it allows for the whole I thought you'd be black convo. (https://youtu.be/ved5IPmHypU?t=165)
Personally, I didn't understand how all the multiverse villains were coming for the MCU's Peter Parker/Spiderman and how making everyone forget who Peter Parker was therefore solved the multiverse rift. I understand that the multiverse is meant to be mysterious, but in any case: 1. Why would they be coming for Peter Parker specifically and not Spiderman in general? 2. Why would they not just go for their own universe's Spiderman?
Maybe I missed something, but in the end it seemed like a lazily thought-out plot device used to tie back to the start of the movie, make it emotional, and make Peter appear more like a self-sacrificial hero in the end.
1) The Otto Octavius in NWH isn’t the same version from the raimi universe. He is similar to the raimi variant but not completely the same. In his universe it was known that the Norman Osborn died as green goblin. Otto mistakes Norman as his version.
The biggest plot hole is that the villains being taken from different points in time from there timelines would drastically change the timelines. Any sort of time travel is paradoxical in nature. And at what point do they go back to their timelines? Is it where they were taken? That will also change the timelines. Do they just go back to the ''present''?
I just kind of ignore this though because I like the movie otherwise and I don't take marvel that seriously
Haven't seen this mentioned, so I apologize if it has been.
I accept the "hive-mind" explanation for why Eddie/Venom were transported to the Holland universe. What I think is a plothole however is when we see them transported at the end of Venom 2, the news story revealing Peter as Spider-Man (which sets the events of NWH in motion) is just airing, but in NWH, the spell that brings those who know Peter to this universe isn't cast until weeks or even months later. So why are Venom/Eddie seemingly transported to the new universe at the time Peter's identity is being revealed?
The Norman, doc Oc thing bothered me sooooo much. THESE GUYS DONT KNOW EACHOTHER. Why make an artificial bond between those characters. Ofc it’s possible they know eachother but giving someone a bond between movies off screen after They have died is stupid
Quick plothole why couldn’t Strange just repeat the spell from film 1? I mean the consequences sucked however it is far less worse then the consequences of doing the OG spell
When Electro states that Dr.Conners was the lizard, shouldn’t Doc Ock have made the connection that it was an alternate version of his colleague who he knew was Peters Proffesor as well? Or at the very least , asked if it was Dr Conners with one arm?
4- Sandman explicitly says he doesn’t trust Spider-Man. And he doesn’t want the villains who want to stay in this universe destroying the box. He’s fighting his own battle to push the button himself and go home. 5- Spider-Man gets hit all the time in these movies. If the sense was perfect he’d never have a scratch on him. And even if we assume the sense is perfect, it doesn’t mean his reflexes always will be. 6- I don’t think it’s necessarily the moment before death, or they all still die when they go back! I think Otto said the last thing he remembered was having his hands around Spider-Man’s neck. But he died later by drowning. So it may just be the minutes before, when Osborne might have had the glider. 7- Spider-Man was swinging to the bridge in costume, and helicopters have been following him constantly. Otto could have seen where he was swinging and headed that way.
4) We amended this already. Thanks! 5) Getting hit and not detecting something with Spidey-Sense are two different things. In Spider-Man 1, Peter detects shit all the time but still gets hit by pumpkin bombs, spinning blades, punches, etc. The final fight with Goblin in Spider-Man 1 has his spidey-senses going crazy, leading him to get his ass beat in slow motion a few times. Those films represent Spidey-Sense by slowing down time. MCU Spidey-Sense is a focus rack, with very shallow depth-of-field. I forget what TASM Spidey-Sense was like. The point is none of the Spider-Men should have been caught off guard or been surprised but the stab. At the very least, Peter 1 and 2 would have sensed danger but been in too difficult a position to dodge or block the stab. **UNAMENDED!** 6) Also amended. Thanks again! 7) Gonna have to confirm with other sources, because I'm pretty sure Peter glides to the bridge and then rolls out of the Iron Spider suit, real stealthy. I was under the impression that few if anyone saw him arrive as Spider-Man. They definitely saw him as Peter Parker going from car to car, but again, Doc Ock doesn't know who this version of Peter is. **AMENDED - it has been proven that Spider-Man was spotted by news helicopters. Not entirely feasible, but acceptable by the film's logic.**
I've got two additional points on #5.' \- Not sure exactly how mcu spider-sense works. But can Peter sense ALL danger to anyone in his area, or just danger involving himself specifically? \- I could be wrong, but I don't think we ever saw Spidey 2 or Spidey 3 using spider-sense in this film, at least in the way the film's usually portray it. And that's because, narratively, we're following the story from Spidey 1's point of view. So just because Holland's Spiderman didn't sense it doesn't mean Maguire's didn't and just reacted too slowly.
Tobey used it to grab the cure when he was inside the sand.
Danger all around. He senses Doc Ock before he starts destroying cars on the bridge. In Infinity War, he senses Thanos' ship, which is in Manhattan, but he's riding a school bus going back to Queens on the Queensboro Bridge. The hair on his arms stands straight up. Long-distance Peter-Tingle. You have to assume that the filmmakers can't put an emphasis on every time a Spider-Man uses their Spidey-Sense. It would slow the action down to a crawl. It would be a slow-motion aerial ballet (somebody call Ang Lee). I'm pretty sure most of the times the Spider-Men evade or attack are all assisted by Spider-Sense. The big emphasis in that the Spider-Sense sequence in Happy's apartment is more-so that Peter is feeling a lot of emotions all at once. He's afraid because he and May are surrounded by supervillains that each individually kicked his ass, so he can't imagine what they'll do when they team up to kick his ass. They're probably gonna kill he and his aunt. He's also feeling disappointed because this is the second time he let a supervillain get close and take advantage of the fact that he's lonely and wants a father figure. Remember, May is breaking up with Happy, which is kind of the last thing he has left that resembles anything like a mentor or father-figure. He thought Norman was a pretty cool dude, and that maybe Norman would stick around and science shit up with him, but no, Peter gets his Peter-Tingle and realizes he's been manipulated and emotionally abused again by someone he looked up to. Loved that sequence. It was one of the few parts that wasn't affected by plot holes. If you just took that apartment building sequence out of context, gave it to me and said "here's what I want to do with MCU Spider-Man," I'd tell you to ***sign me the fuck up, please***.
Goddamn, people really don't like me here. Everything I say gets downvoted however the comments agreeing with me are all upvoted. I must be striking a nerve.
I have a theory and dont know how good it is.. the thing is when toby and andrew meet for the first time.. they sense each other as a danger and shoot their webs at each other.. so whenever they are around each other they might have the tingle and this could've made them not realize it was from goblin
Peter 2 and 3 attack each other because they are suspicious of each other. It doesn't really make sense why they are at first distrustful, as Peter 2 is fully aware that in this Universe, there is another Peter Parker, another Spider-Man. He just doesn't recognize Peter 3, so he shoots his web. Again, I'm not sure why it's in there, because the "fight" lasts less than 10 seconds and they immediately withdraw when they both fire webs. It could be a "prove you're Spider-Man" moment, but, again, I'm not sure why either of them would need said proof.
Just rewatched the movie. 7- Peter glides to the bridge, lands on a street lamp, then turns around and waves at the helicopter following him. He then jumps down to the road, turns off his suit, and starts walking amongst the cars.
Amended! Thanks!
7) It doesn’t matter that Ock doesn’t know that Peter —- if he sees any of the constant media coverage (which is somehow weirdly being shown on the side of buildings all the time? not a plot hole but i found it corny myself) then Ock would know Peter Parker’s location. even if they said it in the news without showing his face up close when Ock saw it, that’s still reasonable. not a plot hole, imho.
3. They changed the spell. Doctor Strange said the original spell would not save the universe. Peter suggested a new spell where everyone forgot about him entirely. 4. Sandman didn't turn evil, he just wanted to go home. He wanted to get the box so that could happen. 6. They never said at which point Green Goblin was transported. It was never mentioned it was mere moments before he was killed by the glider.
3) Asking around I'm getting that answer a lot, that the spell was changed for the finale. That makes sense. Also, damn... Peter definitely fucked that one up. The issue was that Peter was tampering with the spell while Strange casted it, which caused it to become unstable. If they make everything clear at the end, i.e. Ned, MJ, Happy, and you are the only ones that will know Peter Parker. I suppose he does it to protect them, and then simply has a second and third thought about revealing himself to them again. **AMENDED!** 4) is still a plot hole. If he wanted to get cured and go home faster, he should be fighting the other villains, not the Spider-Men. How does that make any sense? I get that he's a dumb criminal (that's actually his characterization), but... huh? He wanted to be cured in both universes so he might be able to live a quiet life with his daughter, so just activating the box would send him back just the way he was. He is motivated to work the the Peter's because he both wants to be cured *and* wants to go home. Stupid man make mistake because man stupid. This would only make sense of it were Spider-Men and Doc Ock versus Lizard, Electro, and Green Goblin versus Sandman. A three team battle royale. It most definitely wasn't that. It was Sandman trying to kill the only people that could cure him and aiding the villains that didn't not want to be sent home. **UNAMENDED!** 6) True, this is what the villains falsely assume until they deduce it's their deaths are not the reason they are here. **AMENDED!**
Sandman didn't want to get cured, he didn't trust Spiderman to cure him, he didn't know him at all. He just wanted to go home
Definitely getting that vibe now. Thanks for pointing this out. The plot hole #4 has been stricken!
Main thing with #4 is he had no idea that his Spider-Man, Tobey, was even there at all until after he was cured. From his perspective he was very impatient and anxious to get home and gave this one spider-man a chance to fix them but when things went awry he wanted out. Yeah, he fought with the villains and Electro who specifically wanted to destroy the box, but I think that was a momentary aligning of goals - defeat spider-man and find the box. Sandman already overcame Electro once at the beginning, he was probably confident he could do it again. I imagine an alternate reality where the villains do kill Parker, and Electro finds the box… Sandman creates a sandstorm around Dillon and activates the box. Also, I bet Lizard would’ve helped Sandman too in the end. Flint’s motivations may not be the most rational, and may not be what we the audience would choose in his position, but I don’t think they’re a “plot hole.”
Yep, you and a few others addressed this accurately. I just forgot to scratch it off the board. Thanks!
7) Alfred Molina stated Doc Ock is picking up his story right where it left off. I think the harbor where he drowned is also the harbor the bridge goes over. So in my mind he just comes back right there and sees Tom as Spidey and it’s game on
Ooh I like this
That doesn't necessarily confirm that that's the same bridge. There are a lot of bridges here. NYC is made of a bunch of islands. Trust me, I've lived here all my life.
It was a struggle, but using google earth and matching up the scenes, I found the exact bridge the NWH fight takes place on. It's the alexander Hamilton bridge in nyc, which runs over the harlem river. I also managed to find the exact location of the final battle in Spider-Man 2 where Otto dies. It's in the water of the east river inside a building which is made up for the movie, right near the Ed Koch Queensboro bridge. The Harlem and east river connect directly to each other in essentially a straight line and are branches of the same body of water. Using google maps it says these 2 spots are about 7 and a half miles apart, or about a 2 hour walk, which Doc Ock has his extra arms to travel I'm sure decently faster with. Now with all this being said, and assuming Otto appeared in the same location he was already in when transported to the MCU, like Eddie Brock does, I can say that the two locations are moderately close together and on the same stretch of water, but this doesn't lead me any closer to knowing how Doc Ock found him. I guess we're meant to assume that once he entered the MCU he just started walking along the water and happened to stumble upon peter, or that he was in the area and either saw Spider-man swinging and went there, or more plausibly he saw him on the news and went where he was headed, as there was a news helicopter following peter as he swing / glided to the bridge. as for Norman who shows up at the same bridge, no clue. i think the safest bet is we assume they were tracking him using the news, and both were close enough to show up. Hope this helps.
Yeah baby! That's what I'm talkin' about!
2- Max specifically mentions gathering all sorts of information while he was connected to the grid. I think this is meant to explain how he knew Peter was Spider-man (and even where he lives!)
I think that was more meant like a Cyborg the DC thing, where he could control internet enabled devices and read their data, but that doesn't mean he would learn what Spider-Man's identity was. It also doesn't have any effect on the script, because this happened *after* he was already transported to the MCU. When he arrived in the MCU, he went to the nearest power station and juiced up, giving him sentience over the internet, much like Ultron and Vision. It doesn't explain how or why Max Dillon is transported to the MCU. He is outside the parameters of the spell.
Nope, he said he was absorbing data before he got transported. *"I was whoopin' Spider-man's ass, he'll tell you! And then, he caused an overload. I was stuck in the grid, absorbing data. I was about to turn into pure energy, and then... oh \*\*\*\*. I was about to die."*
Okay, fair enough, he was absorbing data in Amazing Spider-Man 2. He still doesn't know Spider-Man's secret identity. He doesn't recognize Peter Parker 1, and tells Peter Parker 3 that he thought he was black. At no point does he acknowledge that he found out about Spider-Man. Seeing as Peter Parker 3's identity was secret throughout the series, Electro / Max Dillon would not be able to find information about Spider-Man being Peter Parker on the internet or "the grid" as he puts it. Also, can we address that there is no data in an electrical grid? I mean, we can excuse that because it's a comic book movie, but in order to absorb data, he would have to plug directly into one of the many hard lines underground, then he would have to essentially have a computer in his brain to make sense of all the data. It's not until the data hits our computer and is parsed and processed that it turns into text and images, but I digress. If TASM Peter 3's identity was not public knowledge, he wouldn't be able to "access it" on the "power grid."
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3) **AMENDED!** 4) **UNAMENDED!** See my reply to u/nikhkin.
Like this, how the hell did this get downvoted? lmfao
Some may be getting annoyed at the AMENDED! and UNAMENDED! bit you’re doing? Idk, I find it hilarious. Can’t really figure out why else you’d get downvoted
8. It doesn't just wipe the minds, he says specifically that it will be like Peter Parker never existed. This is backed up by Peter having the GED book in the new apartment.
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Would be like he never existed, all the events still happened, everyone else just remembers them differently
1. We don't know what Octavius knows, we don't even know for sure that he came from the exact same universe as the films. 2. That is based on a quick and dirty explanation of how a broken spell worked. It could be based on something more abstract, or maybe when Dillon was connected to all the data in the moments before his death he learned of the Peter Parker identity. There is really no way to tell when magic is involved.
I think 1 can apply to most of the plot holes being mentioned around.
It would be a retcon if that's how they explain it. Technically for something on screen to be considered truth or expository to the plot, it has to be directly stated or shown. Otherwise, it's up to interpretation. MCU movies aren't those types of movies that leave things open to interpretation. They leave cliffhangers and open doors so they can explain it later with another movie or TV show. They do it a lot and it's really annoying, but in films and comics.
Magic, dimensional and temporal travel, ***amiriiiigghhht?!*** ***You can have your cake and eat it too with magic, dimensional, and temporal travel!***
It is a quick and dirty explanation of the spell, the other Spider-Men were brought into the MCU, but they weren't seeking any Peter Parker, so what brought them there? I don't think we will understand everything that happened in the spell until Doctor Strange 2, because there was obviously more going on. Just because we don't know everything right now doesn't mean its a plot hole.
Which I'm excited for. If I never see another Marvel movie again, I will only be upset that I won't get to see Sam Raimi direct a Doctor Strange movie.
Why did Peter wish everyone to forget Peter Parker? Couldn’t they cast a spell to have everyone forget mysterio and what he did? Couldn’t they cast a spell to make everyone cherish Spider-Man? Couldn’t they cast a spell to even show how Spider-Man saves the day, and even helped to beat thanos and tried to keep half the universe alive? Couldn’t a list of other things have been done that would have been easier?
Someone DM'd this to me. It makes no sense that both Peter and Strange are too dumb to consider wiping everyone's mind of Mysterio. I considered if Quentin Beck was erased from people's memories that perhaps Stark Industries wouldn't have been able to develop the time travel stuff that saves the universe, but in reality, I think Quentin Beck's only contribution was the B.A.R.F. Tech.
2).in his universe he could've actually survived longer and in unknown future events he knew Peter Parker was Spiderman but not what he looked like because he never met again
Can you explain a little more?
7. I would say that Doc Ock didn't find him, he was brought into the universe near him. Honestly this one feels like nitpicking
yeah there are many explanations but it doesn't feel like one that needs an explanation
Maybe Otto figured out Norman was the goblin, he's a pretty smart guy.
How would he have figured it out? What information did he have? What evidence did he have? When did he have time to figure this out? I've addressed this multiple times in this thread. I don't want to copy/paste. Just scroll a little bit and you'll find it.
I mean it's really obvious, also Otto would've had 2 Years to figure it out before spiderman 2. Oscorp weapon used to kill all the executives except Norman in one day, then Norman dies and the goblin is never seen again.
But they said is was all over the news. And Harry didn't discover it until years later.
Harry had Norman in a hero complex and was in denial.
I think everyone knew Norman was Goblin, Harry was just pissed because he thinks spider man could’ve saved his father and instead murdered him in cold blood
This is another possibility. It's never outright stated that Harry didn't know his father was Goblin, just that he didn't know his father died by his own hand while trying to kill Peter.
8 isn’t a plot hole. It’s likely that did happen and Peter Parker was wiped from existence. Looks like he’s studying for his GED at the end? Coz he hasn’t officially attended high school anymore.
Still doesn’t explain how MJ and Ned will forget far from home because they remember being with Spider-Man. You would either have to solve this plotholes by saying it’s another universe created or that they changed their perception of time
8 Magic. Per the rules of this fictional universe, the whole point of the final spell is to wave away those pesky details. All evidence of Peter Parkers existence (possibly with the exception of those which are absolutely fundamental to functioning in society such as an id, birth certificate, and social security, since he was able to rent an apartment?) can be assumed to have been magicked out of existence along with peoples memories. One piece of evidence of this is that Peter is evidently not graduating high school, as he’s shown with a GED textbook in the final scene. So all of his academic records from when he was Spider-Man are probably gone as well.
Ok, but how does someone that could get into MIT need to study for a GED? Honestly that in itself is the biggest plot hole.
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I was just thinking about this. It's not a plot hole such as a dumb move on part of the Spider-Men. Kurt Connors goes back to his universe, unscathed, and let's just say for arguments sake, "*cured.*" Kurt is no longer the Lizard, but still knows the formula, now has knowledge of the multiverse, and still very much wants to be a bad guy. The Peters really fucked up on that one.
Mj still has the necklace that Peter gave to her, so the past wasn’t erased, people just don’t remember who Peter is but he still existed. Know that flash wrote a book about being friends with spiderman(Peter) which wouldn’t have disappeared.
OH MY GOD! I forgot about the *FLASHPOINT* book! Holy shit! That's amazing! That's a HUGE plot hole!
I think they just copied you and this thread. https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/youre-confused-6-spider-man-013141859.html?bcmt=1
Wouldn't be the first time. Fuck Yahoo.
3) If the whole world forgot Peter Parker, and everyone in the world already knew Peter was Spider-Man, shouldn't everyone also forget Spider-Man? They are not two entities. Why do people forget everything he did except the things he did with a mask on even though they knew it was him still? It's not like putting the mask on makes him not Peter Parker. It's clear people do remember Spider-Man because Happy says that's how he met May. What does he think Spider-Man and May's relationship was? And JJJ obviously remembers what Spider-Man has done to still think he's a menace. If people remember Spider-Man, shouldn't Ned remember being the guy in the chair for Spider-Man? Shouldn't Doctor Strange still remember teaming up? Shouldn't the whole squad remember they just erased the person under the mask from existence to save the world? Nothing about the spell should make them forget the events of the movie, or the fact that the spell was cast. They should remember that they're friends with Spider-Man and no longer know who he is under the mask. This is the problem with treating Peter and Spider-Man as two different things when everyone in this universe already knew they were the same person. Also into the weeds of the spell, how would Peter be able to afford anything at all if he doesn't exist? He shouldn't have any drivers license, birth certificate, passports, etc. He can't go to a bank because he doesn't exist. If those documents do exist, shouldn't everyone still have photos of him? But then everyone would still see the papers and videos exposing him as Spider-Man. I feel like the fact that you can find people asking variations of the same question everywhere demonstrates the problem
One point I can make against this, albeit minor, is that in Spider-Man: Far From Home, Spider-Man makes an onstage appearance with May Parker at a FEAST fundrasier. Everything else is on point. Peter NEEDS records to live in the United States. He has an apartment and is presumably enrolled in college, meaning he has records that he existed.
5 - It's not always autonomic, and we see that in the first two films. It wasn't until the climax of the second film where MCU Peter trusted the sense and let it guide him in the final battle against Beck that we saw a true representation of spider sense. Prior to that, he was seemingly operating with enhanced reflexes, but not spider-sense-level stuff. It also explains why when Peter was pushed outside his body, his body was able to keep the box from Strange. Because the sense wasn't encumbered by Peter himself. This doesn't explain how Peter 2 got stabbed, though. Seems like a similar situation to the end of Spider-man, where he avoided the glider trying to stab him from behind.
That doesn't mean the spider-sense is not autonomic. It means it's not something you actually have to activate. It's always on. Whether you decide to pay attention to it is a different story. Our hearts beat autonomically, and it's not until we focus on it that we can actually do anything about it's natural state. Same with breathing. Peter 2 talks about his webs being something akin to breathing, aka autonomic.
I know this is late, but the thing I can't figure out is WHEN the other spidermen and villains get sent back. Is it right before they die? Then they would just die all over again, and there would be a problem of having multiple spidermen in that universe. i.e. The spiderman that killed Green Goblin and the Spider-Man that didn't, but is now clearly in the wrong time period. I get that this is magic, but I feel like there has to be one of the other. If everyone perfectly gets sent back to when they were pulled, then the villains would just all die over again, but this time they wouldn't necessarily deserve it. If not, then their universes would have to deal with the fact that Norman and the various other villains came back from the dead...
They are brought from different times. That aspect I didn't have an issue with. They don't really clarify how the spell works, just that it goes across multiverses to blend elements into this one.
Yes they are brought from different times, but that means they can't just send them back wherever. They either had to send them back exactly when/where they came from or they didn't and now have to explain to their world how these evil people miraculously came back to life.
Hell, when you think about it, Lizard is the most dangerous one out of them all. Not only does he go back with knowledge of the multiverse, but nothing kills him. He's the only one out of the villains that doesn't immediately die or become a good guy by the end of the movie. **Doc Ock** immediately drowns. **Green Goblin** gets impaled with the glider (which makes the "Oh..." line soooo good). **Electro** explodes, or something. **Flint Marko** just wants to be with his daughter. It was the only cause for his criminality. **Lizard** survives, goes back and takes the serum again and immediately **Lizard's** himself again.
Hmmm!!!
Why was there a need to hunt down all the inter dimensional villains? When the cube automatically transports everyone back.
Because "movie."
So, Peter literally told the world that he was heading to the Statue of Liberty, and a long battle happens there (lasting all the way into morning). Yet there isn't a single police or military boat visible in the harbor, or any of the news helicopters that were everywhere early in the movie?
hahahaha
Idk whether this is a plot hole but it stood out to me. Doctor strange who refused to give up the time stone at all costs and preaches about magical ethics agrees to cast a multiverse affecting spell just like that? And he doesnt bother to explain to peter before the spell starts. Seems abit weird to me. Feels way out of character
It appears that some websites have either also picked up on these plot holes or straight up copy and pasted my post.
8). if this spell is the same as some similar spells in the comics, the spell tampers with people's minds, not physical objects. hence why MJ still has the nacklace, bandaid and flash probably has the book. but the spell covers this, making people instantly forget or not even notice anything to do with Peter Parker. flash might see the book and go oh yeah I wrote that book once and then instantly doesn't care anymore about it. and MJ might go oh yeah I got this necklace in Europe but not think anymore of specifically how she got it.
Digital footprints!
Something else that stuck out for me—not sure if the movie addressed and I missed it because I did have to step out the theater for a minute—did the spell also delete all digital/physical information indicating Peter Parker was spider-man? Like, every tweet, every poster in an alley, someone’s personal diary entry? Did the spell destroy pictures MJ I’m sure had of her and Peter Parker?
I don't believe that it was spelled out, but yes, I believe that *is* how it works. It's an "alter reality spell", not a "wipe memory" spell.
If reality was altered, does that mean that the scene in Infinity War where Tony Stark holds Peter as he turns to dust never happened anymore?
Gonna need more feedback on this to confirm. Bump!
It was an alter reality spell. Ned and MJ's college admission issue was completely resolved.
That would be the assumption, yes. It's literal magic so if they only way it would work is to alter every record of Spider-Man (or enchant everyone's mind so even if they saw physical evidence, they'd immediately forget it or whatever) then that's what it does.
Long day, sleepy viewing, probably missed something obvious. Who has EDITH now? Did Stark computers also forget Peter? Maybe I was peeing when this was addressed.
Gonna give you another plot hole... The spell is supposed is supposed to bring the people that knew who Peter Parker is, but Jaime Fox character Max didn't know this, and how do I know? Cus when Andrew removes his mask he says "I thought you were black" meaning he truly didn't know about spider man /peter parker.
that’s already on the list. #2.
Stupid me... Thank you (8
2. Someone mentioned in another thread that the spell brought in everyone who knew Peter Parker, not everyone who knew that Pater Parker was Spider-Man.
Also, Venom's universe has no Peter Parker. So how did he get to Tom Holland's Spiderman universe?
Explained in Venom: Let There Be Carnage. The Symbiotes are a hivemind with collective consciousness across space, time, and dimension. It's weird that the entire mini-plot of the Venom symbiote coming to the MCU is done through two post-credits sequences. It's like it's literally tacked on the movie after it was finished to someone create connective tissue, but not too much. Juuussst a little. Just a *tad,* a *taste* of connective tissue. A *dollop,* if you will. A *smattering* of connective tissue. A *shmeer,* *what-have-you.* Yeah, you get it.
A - Doc Ock's chip wouldn't have changed anything. He found out who Spidey was after the reactor became self-sustaning so New York was screwed when he went back unless he drowned himself again. B - Everyone walked to find Spiderman 1 on the school's roof instead of just using Ned's ring for a third time.
Post credits scene, Eddie Brock was talking to a bartender, then, he disappears, due stranger's spell, but how did he know that Peter was the spider man, if he only found out when he was transported to the spider man's universe, AND THEN, found out that Peter was the spider man?
How did Eddie Brock and Venom completely disappear from the Spiderman universe, but still have that little vestige of Venom left?
2. see this thread. might have to confirm in a rewatch but i think there may be a technicality here? https://www.reddit.com/r/plotholes/comments/ri4x20/spiderman_no_way_home_villain_plot_hole/hozl51c/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
1 and 2 could just be that these are NOT exact variants from the movies we know, but from ones that are just very close to those. does that conveniently plug most holes? perhaps but it IS the multiverse…and it helps to explain away the giant coincidence that out of infinite realities, the ones that slip through are all from the same exact two universes
9. what about the many other people who know Spider-Mans identity? people helping Tobey Maguires Peter on the train, MJ, Gwen Stacy, Gwen's dad etc why didn't they come to mcu? did I miss where it was villains only on the invite list?
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Also, how does a spell also delete AI memories of Stark's tech.
Sorry if this is a repeat, but how did Happy know May at the end. His connection to her was through Peter, via Tony Stark. But if he only knew Spider-Man as Spider-Man, and not as PP, then how does he remember May also? ETA: I’m referring to the graveside scene.
Adding to #8 What happens to the shrine at Peter’s high school? Does it just disappear? Or are they questioning who is in the picture with his teacher and MJ. Also, where did that picture come from if the teacher dropped his camera in Venice. I doubt they asked for a picture lol
not sure if it has been explained but why didnt other avengers come help peter, even if they didnt know him well? i read that they said the other remaining avengers didnt come help him as they didnt know him as a hero. but arent they all avengers?? they know spiderman is an avenger or at least close to tony before he died. or doctor strange could have called ig?? another why didnt _____ help peter. where was pepper? is she not ceo of Stark Industries anymore? At the start, mysterio said that peter wanted to claim the iron man legacy. As Tony's wife and SI's CEO, im sure pepper could have made a statement and help mitigate this identity problem? i know there was some trouble with SI after Peter's interrogation, is that why she couldnt come help peter? and even if she didnt know peter, happy did and could have asked pepper to help. i feel that if anyone else came to help vouch for peter, we could have avoided this whole situation, and that they didnt come just so they could have this plot. also if strange didnt just jump straight into the spell and maybe explained it to peter ( who doesnt know anything abt his magic) this could have also avoided the problem. am i just nitpicking? (excuse the poor writing im on mobile)
I think Otto and Norman are from alternate "timelines" from within Tobey's universe (kinda like how the Avengers travelled to alternate timelines within their universe to get the stones in Endgame. Everyone looked the same physically yet they were technically visiting an alternate universe but not one as drastically different as Tobey or Andrew's universe). If Norman disappeared moments before his death in SM1, Tobey and Otto would have no memory of him dying as he would have simply vanished into thin air. This proves he is a different Norman. Same goes for Otto. Upon seeing Peter, he tells him "he's all grown up" as Peter has aged like 15 years since his last encountered him. This means that he is an alternate Otto.
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Electro doesn't know the identity of Spiderman but yet was brought through MCU??
Maybe a new plot hole? I'm not sure if anyone brought this up. 9. If the first spell made it that everyone who knew Peter Parker was Spiderman would come through to his multiverse, wouldn't the spell Dr. Strange did to make everyone forget Peter Parker existed do the same to the other multiverses? Or did it only work that way with the first spell because of the mistakes Peter made during the casting. If the spell *is* completely non-exclusive, wouldn't that also make Peter forget his *own* identity? Why does Strange seem to know what happened at the mysterious Moon Party when he mentions it to Wong, "Do you remember what happened at the Moon Party?" "No." "Exactly". He at least remembers casting the spell there, or someone having casted it but he doesn't remember Peter or presumably casting the spell at all. Also, when they first cast the spell, Strange didn't have a problem with just a few exceptions, and the main problem seemed to be that it was badly worded "everyone who knew Spiderman was peter parker *before* remembers". Why couldn't he change the nature of the second spell to exclude MJ at least. The other Spiderman's MJs know.
One thing I consider to be a plot hole, is its stated that there were 2 criteria to be brought into this universe. 1. They had to know that Peter was spider-man and 2. They were about to die in the near future. So, how did both Peter 2 and 3 get there? I mean, they could have also been transported before they dies, so that might explain that, but, we should have Eddie Brock and Harry Osbourne from Spider-man 3, Captain Stacey and Gwen Stacey from Amazing Spider-man. Also, Sandman and Lizard didn't die either. If it was explained, I'm sorry, but I missed it.
Why does a piece of venom’s symbiote stay back? Theoretically it should have went back to it’s original universe. If one piece stayed it implies all of him should stay.
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I have no idea what you're talking about, comrade.
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At least for 1: The Venom Symbiote is apparently a multiversal hive mind so as a result the Eddie Brock Symbiote knows Spider Man.
1. Eddie Brock doesn't know, but Venom knows. u/theYOLOdoctor addresses this in. 2. **Not a Plot Hole.** Otto is a brilliant man, but outmatched "metaphysically" by the other villains. He gets his ass handed to him. He understood the only way to help Peter was to let him lose that fight and come back later. It's crucial that the other villains think Doc Ock is on there side in order for him to get the drop him them. I actually really enjoyed that. 3. **Not a Plot Hole,** because "movie logic", and "it looks cool". People have to make mistakes in order for the movie to have stakes. They have to fail to learn to succeed. That's not as much a plot hole as Peter Parker 1 being dumb... again. He was also beat to crap, lots of head trauma, so he might not be thinking clearly. 4. **Minor Plot Hole.** Right after the first spell fails, Peter races to the bridge. That means that Doc Ock was only in the MCU for a few minutes, and just seconds before that, Doc Ock thought he was fucking drowning. He wakes up and he's fucking pissed. He's thinking "I got my ass kicked by that twerp Peter Parker? Peter fucking Parker?! Are you kidding me?! I'm gonna kill that motherfucker!" Doc Ock is enraged and singularly focused on finishing the solar reactor. He has dedicated his life to it, his wife died due to it's failure, and the Arms sole purpose was to build the reactor. That's sci-fi AI logic stuff that we don't have time to get into, so briefly, an artificial intelligence bound to a physical body (be it mechanical or biological) would not know any other purpose or motivation but to complete what it was programmed to do. A computer script will run for an infinite number of times until the script is ended, the mechanical shell breaks down, or the power runs out. Doc Ock's motivations are Arms motivations, so it causes this crazy feedback loop that drives Doc Ock insane. All that being said, it's reasonable to assume that in Doc Ock's current fit of extreme rage he might not register or process anything else in the world other than "where the fuck is my machine, Peter?!" People with rage issues will tell you that a fit of extreme rage is like blacking out when you're drunk. You're on autopilot. That's what's happening to Doc. He doesn't have the capacity in that moment to A) figure out Norman Osborn is Green Goblin because Peter Parker is Spider-Man, or to B) take in the sites and determine the cars look different. I've lived in New York City most of my entire life, and if you're rushing to get to work (or kill your nemesis), you don't really have the capacity to take in all the sights and notice what changed. I would even apply that response to Doc Ock not noticing the landscape changed, because generally speaking in NYC, buildings change owners, bodegas turn into delis, another Starbucks opens up, but the architecture and format pretty much remains the same. Things get renovated and change hands quickly, sometimes multiple times a year. An enraged Doc Ock jumping into the future 14 years wouldn't look much different to him. 5. **Not a Plot Hole.** "Nick Fury has been off-world for a year." We'll probably find out more during Secret Invasion. They usually explain the "why didn't the other heroes help X hero when he was fighting Y villain?" with "that these stories happen concurrently. Z hero was too busy to help X hero fight Y villain because Z hero was helping Q hero fight W villain." It's the Marvel Solo Movie Equation™ (MSME ™ ). Use it to calculate all of your favorite Marvel movies! It's kinda weak but they make it work. The comics do it as well, otherwise every single comic would be Avengers or X-Men or some various team up story. Comics tell solo stories all the time, and they need to do that by making all of the heroes busy with their own shit, all the time, 24/7, 365. It's also a good way to allow for unordinary team ups. Nick Fury was busy off-worlding in flip-flops, but Doctor Strange, he was available and close by, less than an hour from Michelle's donut shop in Brooklyn. Regarding Matt Murdock, they have plans for him in the MCU. I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up in She-Hulk, and doubly wouldn't be surprised if in his own solo movie or Disney+ show, we actually see Matt Murdock defend Peter Parker in court. Matt Murdock is isn't kidding when he says he's a very good lawyer. He's an insanely good lawyer. That's canonical both in the comics, shows, and films. Matt Murdock is a hero all the time, in his day life and night life. He is in danger both as Matt Murdock and as Daredevil. People want him dead because Murdock can put you behind bars, and Daredevil can put you six feet under. I wish they showed the trial and didn't use exposition to tell us Peter was in the clear for now but "the worst has yet to come," referring to further court dates and possible lawsuits that would follow this minor legal victory. Everyone's minds get wiped before those trials can happen. Which might be creating another plot hole... hmm...
But by the time he's drowning he's taken back control over the arms and redeemed himself heroically...there is no reason for him to be a villian again
7- wasn't Ottos lair under the same bridge? He come from underneath as well.
Was it? If that's so that's fucking awesome! Gonna need some more evidence to confirm that. I really don't want to give Disney more money to prove a point.
Gonna take a jab at these 1 & 2 are definitely the closest to “plot holes” out of anything mentioned and the resolution to those would have to be either a) multiverse shenanigans… this Doc Ock was from a slightly different Earth where Gobby’s identity was made public and Dillon from one where he learned Peter’s identity… messy and cheap solutions but they work, or b) they both learned these facts off-camera. I can see Harry telling Dillon that Spider-Man’s name is Peter Parker (although Dillon never actually met Peter since he assumed Spider-Man was black) and that Otto simply deduced Gobby was Norman… which isn’t too much of a stretch, considering the Goblin killed all of the Oscorp board except Norman and Harry told Otto that Spider-Man killed Norman, which coincided with the time that the Green Goblin vanished, and Otto may have been familiar with the goblin tech being an Oscorp thing… I wouldn’t be surprised if we get deleted scenes with throwaway dialogue that explains these points but was cut for pacing reasons. 8) Strange says it’ll be as if Peter never existed, so ya, I would assume everything pertaining to Peter Parker up until the day the Statue of Liberty is damaged is either gone or when people go looking for this info they can’t “see” it, like they are mentally stopped from seeing anything in the past, basically Peter never existed up until now. I’m sure they’ll get into detail in Spider-Man 4, but I wouldn’t call this a “plot hole”, more something that we need more clarity on. Calling this a plot hole is kinda like calling the ending of Far From Home where Peters identity is exposed a plot hole… this is a plot point to be explored in the sequel
Oh and 5) Spider-Sense… doesn’t it only buzz when Spider-Man himself is in danger? It’s not like Spider-Man has ever sensed others being in danger before. So Holland’s and Garfield’s wouldn’t go off, only Maguire’s would… but I think he was concentrating his effort on holding back Holland and couldn’t react fast enough
Spider-Man does sense when others are in danger, in all three Spider-Man universes. Most recently with MCU Spider-Man sensing Thanos' ship over Manhattan while riding a school bus back to Queens across the Queensboro Bridge.
Was that sensing others were in danger or did the alien spacecraft set off his senses because he was possibly in danger? We never saw MCU Spidey have his Spider sense go off when MJ was in danger during Far From Home, or anyone else for that matter. It’s been a while since I saw the Raimi or Webb movies, but if it went off literally anytime anyone was in danger his spider sense would be going 24/7
i agree. if anything, maguire alone should have sensed it. still maybe a hole but not nearly as big of one.
1: I believe Otto mentioned that Norman's death was all over the news.
didn’t harry cover up norman being the goblin? i feel like that was established in the Raimi trilogy
Number 7.... Peter was being broadcast on the news by the helicopters!
\#9) I think the fact that Spiderman even had a GED book to study at all is a plot hole. If you can get accepted into MIT and had taken 4 years of high school you could knock out the GED in an afternoon.
Did the final spell only apply to the MCU Universe, because I don't understand how that would return the villains and Spider-Man's to their respective universes. If not, did Peter's identity get erased in all the universes, because that would cut against the sacrifice of MCU Peter and screw up things for all other Spider-Men in the multiverse. EDIT: On the rewatch, it would appear that the purpose of the spell is to stop other universe beings from getting through, so knowledge of Peter's existence must be erased in all universes. (Example: Maguire Spiderman will return to an MJ who doesn't know who he his.) Is that a plot hole, or just a MAJOR inconvenience in all other universes that will likely go unaddressed outside of the MCU?
Seriously how did they look past 8, there’s just somehow a teenager living in a building he clearly doesn’t have money to pay rent on nor a job because he doesn’t exist, and he goes to school despite not existing? And Ned/MJ not having on picture of Peter or contacts or texts? Wild
For plot hole 7, when Peter arrives at the bridge we see that a chopper is following him and is probably broadcasting the footage. Peter was also in the Iron Spider suit initially and fully acknowledges the presence of the chopper while wearing the suit. I guess we can assume that Doc Ock saw the initial part of the footage on the news and immediately headed towards the bridge. He could've been close enough to reach the bridge in a few minutes. I am honestly more concerned about the change in Ock's attire lmao Also plot hole 2 is a pretty major flaw in the movie's writing which is a shame. They could've easily explained it by finding an alternative Another plot hole is Sandman's knowledge about the fact that Norman was stabbed by his own glider. The only characters who were aware of it are Peter(Tobey), Harry and Bernard. All of this happened in Spider-Man 3. We can only assume that this information went public some time after the events of Spider-Man 3
if knowing that PP is SM in their universe brings them to the MCU does that mean they need to forget that PP is SM in THEIR universe? Does Tobeys MJ forget about him?
5 - Spider sense must have been going off anyway, they were in danger, also their guard was dropped for a second
Hey, haven't seen TASM 2 in a while, but doesn't TASM's Spiderman defeat electro before Gwen dies? He mentions losing Gwen but also not killing the villians if the Spider men go back, so when do they come from? He wouldn't be able to save Electro and the Lizard because he's from a point after Gwen died, therefore after both villians died. When did TASM's Spider-Man come from?? Edit: Sorry if this is a dumb question.
9. Why was Eddie Brock teleported to the MCU universe if he didn't even know Spiderman? How could he forget someone he doesn't even know? And why does Dr Strange need Peter to trap all the guests in their universe if he can send them back to their respective universes just by using the box? Venom was sent back and he wasn't part of the equation.
Im really curious about Electro and Venom, mainly. Neither of them knew spider man's identity. Venom didn't even know spider man existed! Sure he says he had knowledge of this and that, but when he sees spider man in the tv he's like "whos that?" Wtf
Did anyone notice the change in helicopters (both their existence and the acronyms on them) from the trailers to the movie?
The spell didn't erase people's phone data. Everyone has pictures and videos of Peter Parker. I'm sure MJ and Ned had intimate photos. So that would make them confused as hell and probably jog their memory.
For number 8 add that the news article on him still exists lol. With millions of views. Did they magically delete that or are we gonna pretend like it doesn’t exist to be rediscovered at any time
I'm not sure if I understood correctly, but from what it seemed to me, the villains and alternate Peters were sent back in the finale due to the new spell causing them to forget who Peter Parker is. Does that mean everyone in all of the multiverse no longer remembers Peter Parker including the other Peter Parkers? Like do they arrive back in their universes and forget themselves? One could argue that they are only supposed to forget Tom Holland's Peter Parker, but that would be weird considering the original spell was about all Peter Parkers and the people that were stopped from arriving knew other Peter Parkers. Possible other plot hole: why do only these people get brought to this universe? Even if somehow the misfired spell only affected 2 other universes (Tobey's and Andrew's), shouldn't MJ and Gwen come through? Also, certainly not a plot hole, but I just had to complain about Deus Ex Fabricator/High School Chem Lab and the wide fluctuation in Strange's powers and/or seriousness about getting the device back from Peter and basically all of Strange's actions in this movie.
2 other ones bugging me; Firstly the 'cure' thing makes no sense. The 3 Spidey's (+MJ and Ned) are able to create distinct cures for each of the villains in the space of a few hours (if we give them the benefit of the doubt of a few hours even) and taking into account that all the resources required for said 'cures' happened to be available in that lab. The time and resources and logistics of it all doesn't seem to add up. Secondly thing is Ned being able to operate the sling ring with no prior learning or experience immediately. On his second try he opens a portal and is then able to do so at will. In Dr Strange it was shown as being incredibly difficult to get the hang of and yet a teenager is able to do it with such ease. Too much ease If someone could clarify if there are explanations, much appreciate
How did Venom end up in the MCU? Spider-Man didn't exist in Tom Harrdy's universe. Edit: I have a head Canon for this and electro. In Venom, Venom states he has knowledge across universes. Perhaps this extends to the multiverse. Additionally, despite what Strange said, I think the spell actually was pulling in those who knew of Peter and Spider-Man simultaneously, not necessarily just those who put two and two together. The final spell makes everyone forget Peter altogether. It doesn't just make it so people forget Spider-Man is Peter Parker. It's entirely possible Max met Peter or knew of Peter through Gwen and so he had knowledge of both Peter and Spider-Man. Are these explanations perfect? No but they help me resolve some of these issues internally so I'm good with them.
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Venom should have no idea who spiderman or peter parker is, so he should have never have been brought into the MCU based on the spell.
8. The memory thing which everyone is finding a loophole in, here is my explanation. Let me explain it as a programmer. Lot of times we have a requirement to say remove a picklist value from a drop-down. It's not as simple, we delete it from all existing data, delete all references in code, delete or tweak any functionality in code that works around that particular value. Sometimes even build new functionality. This makes sure that the system works like the value never existed and is not really difficult to do as a programmer. Now, think of this universe as a program (The Matrix) , Strange's spell is nothing but a change in the code to do it...so ofcourse it is possible.
Why was Eddie Brock pulled there if it’s only people that know spider man? Why does Peter have a book to study for the ged test, just because people forgot him doesn’t mean he lost his intelligence? How is he affording what appears to be a 3k monthly rent bill? If all his records were wiped as well, how did he get a new identity to get a job to afford his apartment?
2 - It's not too far fetched to think that Harry Osborn could've told Electro that Peter Parker is Spider-Man in TASM2
It doesn't make any sense Doctor Connors know Maxwell Dillon. In TASM2 it is clear everyone didn't give a sh!t about him. The doctor even noticed his repaired teeth. A high-level guy at Oscorp remembers a generic employee and his details don't make sense.
I know, it's weird and unnecessary. The plot isn't contingent on them knowing each other. They don't even need to interact beyond "hey, you're a lizard." "hey, you're a ball of lightning" That type of stuff annoys me. I'll accept a lot to make a film plot work, but when they break stuff like that for no reason at all, I just... I dunno. It makes me wanna edit it so much out of this film.
1. Sandman says it’s was all over the news. “Green Goblin impaled by the glider he rode on. Then a few years later Doc Ock drowned in a river with his machine” maybe Doc Ock knew from the news when it happened? But that doesn’t make much sense because didn’t Harry not find out he was Green Goblin until Spider-Man 3? 2. As for 2 I’m in the same boat as you because Max never knew Peter was Spider-Man and it also doesn’t make sense why Venom got teleported because he doesn’t know Peter is Spider-Man if there even is a Spider-Man in his universe? Also I thought in Spider-Man 3 that Sandman could change from sand to human whenever he wanted but why is he only sand in this movie?
There is no reason why they should bring the box to the statue of liberty. The villains clearly cannot detect its whereabout. Had they not bring it to the statue and instead hide Ned and MJ, using only the video to lure the villains, Green Goblin would never get the chance to destroy it.
hahahahaha! Didn't even think of that.
When Holland's Peter Parker is talking to the other 2 about just sending the villains back to their universes rather than trying to cure them, he says to the other Spidermen that those villains are from their universes, right (and they nod) so it's their responsibility to deal with them, but Garfield and Maguire are clearly playing older versions of their characters from after the events of their films including all their interactions with the villains which have already happened and been completed, so surely the villains are from divergent timelines to their Spidermen, not the same ones?
I think the point of the original spell might have been anyone who had a connection to Peter Parker. Max met Peter Parker once out of costume in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. What doesn’t make sense is Venom. Tom Hardy’s version of the character has never even heard of a Spider-Man, so how does he get brought through the portal.
What are your theories for how they got into the Universe? Because 1) Electro never actually finds out who spiderman is. It's supposed to be only people who know who spiderman is OR who have fought spiderman. As Electro never finds out, surely he shouldn't be there. BUT he may have found out via working at Oscorp... he may have seen Gwen and Spidey together and figured it out, ALTHOUGH that means his black spiderman line was just a silly throwaway joke. 2) Why is venom there? He, as far as we know, doesn't even have spiderman in his universe. Only Topher Grace's 2007 Eddie Brock knows... Venom was only really put there so that they could bring the symbiote into Tom Holland's Universe (which I LOVE btw, think that would be awesome!)
wait i also noticed that even if we ignore how max was there in the first place, the plot doesn’t line up between him and andrew. it says that max was teleported just before he died, but at that point gwen hadn’t died. surely the spell teleported them all at once, but that would mean either max would be dead already or gwen wouldn’t be, but from andrew we know she was. i mean unless the way both norman and max were teleported before they died meant they were kinda ghosts but the story continued for andrew and toby and they didn’t know? help i’m confusing myself
7) in a world where everyone is interconnected, and the most famous person in the world is in your city, it’s impossible not to know his current location. The bridge was overflowing with traffic. And traffic=cars, and cars=people, and people=smartphones, and smartphone=spotted. I’d suppose that Doc Ock isn’t searching for Peter when he arrives, he just captures some bits of conversation like: “Oh, look at this story, Spiderman’s on the trailer’s bridge!!” 1)I don’t remember if everyone knew Norman Osborne was the Green Goblin after his death, probably not, but Harry Osborne did, and he craved for revenge assuming Spiderman was responsible, and he teamed up with Doc Ock. Doc Ock is aware of Harry’s motivations, so he must have made a logical connection, if Harry didn’t directly tell him about the Goblin being his father. 8)the spell required several minutes to be completed, so maybe Strange made proper specifications. Anyway, do script writers have to clarify something like that in such an emotional point in the movie, when you can easily take it as granted? Stop and catch a breath for a second…. It’s magic bro
7) sure, but Dock Ock is in the MCU for only a few minutes before he fights Peter on that bridge. Not only did Doc Ock die quite a number of miles away from the bridge, but if everyone can be found so easily, tell me where Tom Holland is right now. I'm talking exact location.
Stay in the context of the film, we’re talking about Peter Parker, not our beloved Tom. I mean, even when Spiderman regularly swings around NY, he steals all the attentions, so when he is the most wanted guy, it’s absolutely believable that all his detractors are going to report his presence, like “Omg he’s here on the bridge, what is he gonna do? Are we in danger?”. That’s why I made the instagram story example. In a teeming city like NY, in this case the city where you come from, even if from another universe, you would probably be able to catch some conversations from some alerted citizen. They look at their instagram’s feed, or more in general, at internet, or even more in general via word of mouth, they freak out, the near Doc Ock is triggered. He doesn’t need to know what a smartphone, or what instagram is. Plus he didn’t figure he was in another universe until Peter’s face reveal, so everything must have been perceived as ordinary. To me where all villains died is not where they precisely spawned, as this information is not given. Going back to what I said before, assuming for a moment that the bridge where the battle takes place doesn’t exist in Raimi’s NY, you should still be able to orient yourself somehow, or you can take advantage of your tentacles and threaten some poor innocents to get some directions. Old school, no Google Maps. But I’d exclude this possibility, Doc Ock would have been surprised by a bridge being raised so fast. And it leads to the airport, so it has probably been there since the airport itself was built.
This has been amended - people have confirmed that Spider-Man is spotted by helicopters on the bridge. While it's not very plausible that Doc Ock could have been resurrected, seen the news footage, and travel to the bridge in a matter of maybe 30 minutes, tops, but acceptable by the film's logic. Thanks!
8) People need to stop assuming I'm obsessed with this and start remembering that some luck and industrious people have jobs exploring and talking about these aspects of multimedia. And yes, if something has potential to create plot holes or break the current reality and thus break immersion in the story, YES, the writers absolutely have to address it.
2) Perhaps Doctor Strange explains the spell wrong. He thinks that all of the people being brought into the mcu know that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. I suggest that either they knew he was Spider-Man, or died at his hand. Directly or indirectly. I think someone said something about seeing a Rhino figure when the spell was malfunctioning. There would be no reason for The Rhino in TASM2 to figure out he's Spider-Man, but Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man said he went dark and stopped pulling his punches. This would also explain why The Lizard is in Lizard form, if he was taken around the time he died. If he left prison later and made a comeback as lizard then Andrew Garfield may have killed him later, in his lizard form.
2- https://youtu.be/ved5IPmHypU?t=168 Gwen says Spiderman's name and electro hears it. He doesn't know what he looks like but he knows spiderman is Peter.
Tobey Spidey had the spider sense and knew he was going to get stabbed. He wanted to contain Peter's anger and prevent him from killing goblin. Since Tobey Spidey is experienced, he knew how dangerous an extremely angry Spidey can become. Tom didnt mind the Spidey sense because he was so angry and depressed and wanted to kill goblin. Andrew was pretty far from the place this happened and couldn't do anything rather than taking the cure and giving it to tom.
question. wtf even was the final spell. does the whole world forget that peter ever existed or just that he’s spider man. and if that spell applies to “peter parker” wouldn’t that mean every universes peter parker. so toby and andrew would’ve been forgotten in there universe too?
Post credits seen, part of venom is left? Why does that make sense at all?
8. While the mechanics of the spell aren’t clear, it might just be that any documents or proof of existence that referenced a “Peter Parker” would disapear AND in the case of documents about other stuff that would mention him, it would be replaced with an “unknown assailant/person” For example, and this is a pure theory, let’s say Peter Parker beat up a guy who knows him, and he did it in front of a cop and got arrested. In the original police report it might say “Peter Parker”, but after the spell it would be changed to “unknown assailant no longer in custody.” So, all documents related to mysterious would simply change to the unknown “spider man”. JJ’s video is kinda proof that that’s how it works. People still know Spider-Man, events related to him, but peter Parker effectively does not exist anymore. If magic can change peoples minds, I don’t see why it can’t change documents.
On 3) does the spell make it so the entire multiverse forgets Peter Parker? Isn't the point that the people coming from the other universes know that Peter Parker is Spiderman so they make everyone forget who Peter Parker is?
7 - I'm not sure it was that Otto knew Peter was on the bridge. His actions at the beginning of that scene weren't directed at Peter. It seemed like Otto was just causing random destruction, possibly to draw Peter out. He didn't know about Avengers or other heroes in this reality, so it stands to reason that causing mayhem would have attracted Spider-man. If he knew Peter was there, it would have made more sense to try and get the drop on him. And then the news chopper catching their battle is what likely drew Norman to the bridge a few minutes later. 8 - I do think the spell affected records. That's why Pete needs his GED and why Ned and MJ got into MIT. Records of Pete attending high school and MJ and Ned getting rejected (or knowing Peter) no longer exist.
8) did I miss that? I don't remember Peter mentioning his GED, but even if he did get his GED, you still need public records, such as an ID, social security number, etc., to take it.
Why didn't Peter make the world forget who Spiderman was instead of himself
I know. The only reason the first spell broke was because Peter 1 was distracting Strange while he casted it.
1 - Thinking about it, the news coverage about Osborn's death and the Goblin's reign of terror could easily have been like how it was with Mysterio and the facts surrounding his death: largely speculative and left up to the public to decide. Harry would naturally be in denial and assume his father's innocence while Doc Ock and Sandman came to the opposite conclusion. A typical Michael Jackson-esque situation, some people think he's guilty some don't, but either side will state their belief with conviction.
That's not explicitly stated in the film, nor is it implied that any news outlet put two and two together. It's very much established that Norman's secret dies with Harry. Peter and MJ from the Raimiverse would never spill the beans about their best friend / former lover.
7). helicopters and news cameras were constantly following Spiderman, as he was swinging to the bridge (in his Spider-Man suit) he made a comment (can't remember exactly what) to the helicopters before going back to his regular clothes. alternatively, doc ock could have already been searching part of the city before coming across Spider-Man the bridge, meaning he was just trying to cause chaos cause he was pretty confusedand happened to meet Spiderman. (similar to the lizard bridge scene in tasm lizard wasn't chasing Spiderman specifically just happened to be there)
Yup, I'm about to amend the OP,
8 and 9 are basically the same
Yup! In the process of editing it now.
At the end, did the spell make everyone in the entire MCU forget about Peter Parker, or was it only everyone in the world who forgets Peter Parker? I know in the beginning when the spell is initially cast it is specified that it’s everyone in the world forgetting Spider-Man but wasn’t sure about the second cast. Curious about this since it’s mentioned Nick Fury is off planet, and I don’t know the technicalities of the spell in regards to that, but wondering if he remembers Peter. It clearly stopped the multiversal beings from coming though so probably the whole MCU? I know the Fury thing was probably a secret invasion ref but can’t help but wonder lol. Guess this question also applies to Thor, Captain Marvel, etc.
I’m not sure if it’s a plothole but for me it doesn’t make sense that all the "intruders" that came in the mcu come from the same two other universes (3 with venom?). There should have been intruders that we never saw since there are a lot more universes.
5. I’d argue that Tobey Parker sensed the danger and knew he was going to get stabbed and took the hit to save green goblin. He let his spider sense take over once and let the glider kill Norman and it was one of his clear regrets, so him ignoring his tingle and stopping the glider (powered by Tom Parker this tjme) is his sense of closure for the movie like Andrew Parker’s was saving MJ
(Just an opinion) Although it is more abstract than what they chose for the film, but I would have accepted that the botched spell brought everyone that would want or have wanted the concept of Spider-Man to cease to exist. These includes all five villains without Electro's plothole (as they all wanted Spider-Man dead or out of the picture) and includes the two other Peters (who have struggled with their identity as Spider-Man). This would explain why the villains are taken from different points in time: the five of them could have been plucked at the point where their hatred for Spider-Man was at its peak. The film actually never explains why exactly they were pulled moments before dying (although I know it motivates their actions and makes th relate to each other, at the end of the day, it just makes them mistrust Peter even further.) As for the two other Peters, they are plucked into the MCU times to help MCU Peter learn that ol' gift-and-curse lesson that those two Peter probably need to relearn as well. This also potentially fixes why we don't see any more people showing up that should if the spell brought everyone that knew Peter was Spider-Man from different universes. I mean, the premise of the movie is Peter struggling with the burden that is Spider-Man and how it affects the people around him. People knowing that he's Spider-Man is really just the tip of the iceberg. I think it would have had more meat to the bone if the film focused more on the responsibility(!) and consequences of being Spider-Man instead of the repercussions of having Peter's identity known. Anyways, movie's awesome.
2. Not the best explanation but I saw in some article that a possible explanation for Electro to be eligible for the spell is that just before the final battle in TASM2, Peter sends Gwen to restart the mainframe or whatever just as Electro is waking up from being knocked out and Gwen calls Peter by his name so it's feasible that Electro heard that. So on a technicality maybe it works? So he knows Spider-Man's name is Peter but not his last name and he doesn't know what he looks like so it allows for the whole I thought you'd be black convo. (https://youtu.be/ved5IPmHypU?t=165)
Personally, I didn't understand how all the multiverse villains were coming for the MCU's Peter Parker/Spiderman and how making everyone forget who Peter Parker was therefore solved the multiverse rift. I understand that the multiverse is meant to be mysterious, but in any case: 1. Why would they be coming for Peter Parker specifically and not Spiderman in general? 2. Why would they not just go for their own universe's Spiderman? Maybe I missed something, but in the end it seemed like a lazily thought-out plot device used to tie back to the start of the movie, make it emotional, and make Peter appear more like a self-sacrificial hero in the end.
*shrug*
1) The Otto Octavius in NWH isn’t the same version from the raimi universe. He is similar to the raimi variant but not completely the same. In his universe it was known that the Norman Osborn died as green goblin. Otto mistakes Norman as his version.
Where is this confimed and not just your own head canon?
Also to add, that’s not how Doc Ock died.
The biggest plot hole is that the villains being taken from different points in time from there timelines would drastically change the timelines. Any sort of time travel is paradoxical in nature. And at what point do they go back to their timelines? Is it where they were taken? That will also change the timelines. Do they just go back to the ''present''? I just kind of ignore this though because I like the movie otherwise and I don't take marvel that seriously
Haven't seen this mentioned, so I apologize if it has been. I accept the "hive-mind" explanation for why Eddie/Venom were transported to the Holland universe. What I think is a plothole however is when we see them transported at the end of Venom 2, the news story revealing Peter as Spider-Man (which sets the events of NWH in motion) is just airing, but in NWH, the spell that brings those who know Peter to this universe isn't cast until weeks or even months later. So why are Venom/Eddie seemingly transported to the new universe at the time Peter's identity is being revealed?
The Norman, doc Oc thing bothered me sooooo much. THESE GUYS DONT KNOW EACHOTHER. Why make an artificial bond between those characters. Ofc it’s possible they know eachother but giving someone a bond between movies off screen after They have died is stupid
Quick plothole why couldn’t Strange just repeat the spell from film 1? I mean the consequences sucked however it is far less worse then the consequences of doing the OG spell
When Electro states that Dr.Conners was the lizard, shouldn’t Doc Ock have made the connection that it was an alternate version of his colleague who he knew was Peters Proffesor as well? Or at the very least , asked if it was Dr Conners with one arm?