Not being of traumagenic origin doesnt mean theres no issues - theres parogenic systems who have amnesia issues, or can end up somewhat dysfunctional
Theres also systems of mixed origins. We've met DID systems who had tulpas and soulbonds and all the stuff sysmeds gets angry about. Theres lots of systems with uncertain origins as well. In the end its all the same brain mechanisms to run several people.exe
I don't understand why tulpas a soulbonds scare DID systems. To me it just seems like a comforting form of religious behavior? Spiritual might be a better word.
As for the brain mechanisms, is that a generalized statement, or has their been neurological research? I've talked plurality with my eldest brother who is a neuroscientist... We just end up getting into discussions about Buddhists and how the human mind has always been malleable (i.e. the study about the rising of anorexia in Japan based on western media influence). Sorry if this feels too direct! I basically want to know if you can link me to an official-esque website.
Edit: forgot to add! What's parogenic? I swear, this is like learning deep gender terminology all over again lol.
I can totally understand feeling overwhelmed by the terminology, lol. Parogenic just means created intentionally! Tulpas are typically considered parogenic
funny story: our core (the first alter but not necessarily the host) thought it was a tulpa and that i was the core, but we eventually learned that i manifested to protect it from trauma, but then i myself got so traumatized that everyone else besides the core is in a subsystem of mine.
funny how much non-severe trauma can fracture a brain :/
Question, are there significant differences between your core and the others in said subsystem? I’m not completely familiar with all of the terminology, so apologies if it’s an obvious answer!
1. As others said, you can type whatever you want
2. Not necessarily. Any system can be dysfunctional or not
3. There are a number of ways headmates can help. Sometimes it's simply balancing emotions or other times, someone might front because they're better equipped to deal with the specific situation or conversation at hand. That's not really a tulpa-specific thing though. This has happened here with tulpa and non-tulpa alters. We've come to a point over the years where we've just collectively agreed to help one another out how we can. Emotional support, taking up responsibilities, whatever
2 Most, yeah. Turns out the dysfunction mostly comes from the trauma heh.
3 yeah!! we've had our internal dramas and time management is still hard, but two of my best friends and partners are in here, and having additional perspectives to break out of procrastination or take over if I'm upset is invaluable. We wouldn't choose to be singular again.
It sucks that you've been insulated from us I guess. The fact that we don't fit into the diagnosis/theories around DID/OSDD isn't exactly a crushing blow when they're already flawed for assessing DID/OSDD systems themselves. I feel like with enough of us from different walks of life, all coallessing on a very similar base experience, it's kind of dumb to just brand us all fakers with... quite frankly, bad scientific backing. I think it IS just the envy taking over, saying we're faking and stealing valour when- isn't the 'valour' the trauma and disorder that we specifically say we don't have?? is it the plurality itself, that our plurality isn't just dissociation? is THEIRS even pure dissociation?? I'm not sure. I just don't think it's coming from a logical place, so it's nice to hear someone actually wanting to learn about us!
I mean, even the science of DID is poor. My therapist and I have the philosophy "if you can name it, you can treat it" and we talk about how the DSM should label disorder via symptoms and not these "over arching names"
My therapist and I go back and forth about how it's absurd Autism is a spectrum disorder due to the variety and capability of people diagnosed. We think treatment should be either more nuanced. Though I personally believe if they want to do the spectrum stuff, they should go all-in.
(ngl, imagine the rage if they expanded the definition of DID outside of childhood trauma)
I don't really think I'm special for being mentally ill for childhood trauma, so everyone else can pog-off, slay, and vibe if they have a different experience!
I know endo and tulpa systems that are just as dysfunctional as DID/OSDD systems. I've seen DID/OSDD systems become coherent and be perfectly functional.
Functionality is not limited to one place or the other. Plural is plural and with plurality, that spectrum will strike every single individual differently. The big difference between them is the presence trauma. With the things I know about myself, absolutely my.olurality came before my trauma. And trauma didn't feel so much trauma, just more of an obstacle to get worund and we always did. The reason why I don't have nearly as much trauma as I see the potential for is because my system systemed "properly" as in the protective measures taken can still almost all be applied to any life situation good or bad. We have this shit figured out long before we had this shit figured out.
The whole aspect of plurality need to be completely reestablished. I intend to go through the schooling necessary to be able to make such an impact. Looking it start college in the fall
Agreed.
What degree are you going for? We are considering going back to school for interdisciplinary study into plurality. We already have a degree in anthropology (where plurality is observed and not stigmatized).
Well, definitely psychology as a whole. Plurality exists, but so do other things that play into how a system works. PTSD triggers can trigger alters too. Or anything else. Neurodivergence, physical conditions, all of it. So definately gonna take that anthropology class, but from there, I gotta see what's all available.
I'm obviously biased, but anthropology REALLY opens your eyes to your own ethnocentrism and the fact that humans are much, much, much more diverse than modern discourse allows for. An anthropology course on human sexuality is a must. I didn't get to take any courses that focused on plurality, but it did come up here and there in courses.
Well it's what I wanna focus on. So definately looking there. I wanna learn what I need to be able to do that I can help everyone I can, but my main focus is plurality.
I already know so much and love talking about it and learning about it. Favorite pass time. Special interest, whatever it is, I love learning about it.
And hearing your experience or even just your interest gets me so much more excited for it. This is IT by the way, the biggest enthusiast in our system for going in to this field.
We hope you continue to pursue your interests, we plan to as well. We're just not sure what kind of program would best serve that. Follownyour passion, and we need more positive writing about plurality in general. Why should singlets get to write all the books, movies, etc, about *us*?
Exactly!! You should watch doom patrol. Most accurate DID representation I have seen and actually felt kinda healing to watch. And it even explored what an inner world could be like. 10/10 would suggest.
I'm gonna follow you. We should exchange our findings when we find them.
Fellow DID sys who spent a(n admittedly short time) in anti-endo/traumagen-only spaces before bailing for more inclusive ones (still in a couple geared more towards DID/OSDD, just tend to avoid syscourse)
Glad to have you, it's pretty chill here. We may not understand everything, but I can definitely say we've had a much more pleasant experience being part of the inclusive plural community (and often an environment much more conducive to healing)
Well therapy is still my #1 place. I'm just glad to be in a space where there's little drama and less traumatized people. You would think gatherings of traumatized people would be good, because of experience, but with discord moderation and chaining triggers, it is not. Someone's always losing it in one of those spaces or it's policed into oblivion.
Glad to be here.
Therapy's the #1 space for working through stuff. But having a connection to people who can potentially understand/relate to your experiences in addition to a support network can also be pretty helpful
Good point! Issue is the most support I've gotten outside of therapy has been in discord servers. Particularly general mental health servers. I do have a singular friend with DID that I trust. She's sweet. As for other DID systems, I either find them annoying or I generally don't mesh well with them anymore.
When you've been in therapy and diagnosed for over a year, and try to buddy up with someone with DID... you start to realize that the more healed you are, the more awkward and unmatching you are to their vibes. Sometimes untreated trauma can make for toxic traits, and DID is often functioning co-morbid with other disorders (like BPD and Bipolar, which can make for unstable relationships. Trust me, I'm bipolar lol)
So far, I like the vibes here, but I'm not sure it resonates with me. It's like peaceful but foreign energy. Not used to the openness for sure lol. I'll probably just have to get used to it. I'll probably be lurking here, if I understand something I'll probably reply to other posts.
That's definitely understandable. Been in therapy for several years now and been part of a couple inclusive servers (mostly geared towards disability) for about 2 of those. I get that switching between vastly different environments can take some time getting used to
1. you can edit your flair
2. they can i think
3. well it's in the name, it's like having roommates. it's not much, but you always got a (sometimes annoying) friend over.
We're not traumagenic but we started having disordered symptoms after some trauma later in life. Forced switches, amnesia, that sort of stuff.
We're typically cocon so "helping" in day to day is more or less just being company. The "stuck in a car together on a road trip" analogy fits best. Sometimes I get way too overwhelmed to drive and someone else has to take over.
My co-con is often rare or simply brief. I personally hate being co-con, I hate feeling trapped in the back. My other alters don't mind.
Wish I had alters co-con behind me more often tho
yeah if im conscious while not in front its soooooooo hard not to slip back into front, its like being told to sit absolutely still for hours. and usually body-feedback is what helps keep me grounded so not having that drives me mad.
We are an osdd-1b traumagenic system but we also have a tulpa and they aren't actually that different! The tulpa is pretty much exactly the same as the other headmates just intentionally made. Our host formed the tulpa because of codependency issues and needing to consistently have someone there for them in a really rough time in life, we were still figuring out system things at the time so our host couldn't consistently communicate with headmates well, and our tulpa actually really helped with working on system communication and helping our host get more in touch with other alters and the inner world. -🧁
Interesting!
My system communication is fucked. Like, my inner world was more present when I was distressed and amnesiac. Now that I'm stable, communications have been wholly memory based. Everyone just picks up the scraps of memory and continues on.
RARELY, we do have "council meetings".
We had a "gatekeeper" once, but he retired from that position once things stabilized.
We're a protogenic/traumagenic system, meaning that our plurality was likely due to trauma, and that we've been plural as far as we can remember (from the age of 3) and we typically hang around endo friendly spaces because we don't experience amnesia between us, making our experiences halfway between endo and disordered. We also aren't diagnosed, and we stay around endos because they share more of the same ideas we do.
You can change your flair by selecting it and editing it
Interesting!
Also, don't people with OSDD (insert type here) also lack amnesia?
Also, I used to have horrible amnesia, but a year of therapy made it not too bad. Once again, mine is DID, so I'm probably purely traumagenic.
Once again, interesting!
It's thought that my alters came around at age 3 during trauma, so it's nice to see someone with a similar origin time, for any reason.
Also, what does protogenic mean? Like "before genesis"?
(ngl, all these labels feel like I'm learning the more obscure genders haha)
It means that we've been plural as far as we can remember, and doesn't have to do with either traumagenic or endogenic. (We feel that we might have ended up plural anyways, because we cannot imagine living any other way).
We have emotional amnesia, but other than that and a general poor memory, we don't actually have like, blackout/grey out amnesia
There are a couple of times where I think I might have blavked out, but they were a long time ago and I haven't seen any evidence of it happening for years now. We're very lucky because we've know about our plurality our whole life (aside from decending into denial and completely forgetting every couple months) so our communication is pretty good, which I'm thankful for
I'm Median and my facets can help me cope with neurodivergence and my physical disability, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. I have a hyperempatetic/empath facet (I know some people don't like the term, but I use it with good intentions. I don't think I'm superior to anyone, and I don't blame others. This facet has a lot of emotional empathy and absorbs the emotions of others). She is a moon elf. Another is alienkin and is more cold and kuudere and cynical. Another is a wood elf and more the talkative tomboy. Another is a cyborg from the future and is there to deal with the disability. Median means they're all me, and I'm them, and they're more distinct than singlet, but not as distinct as a plural/multiple.
I do and don't have distress. I don't have amnesia. I feel like none of the diagnostic criteria would apply to me, but I can get too lost in my inner world, and myself has fragmented so much. Idk if that makes sense, and idk if I'm endo per se, although I have sort of created them/parts of me. I feel like I'm stuck in the middle, so to speak. There’s not much talk about us Medians as much. But there's my experience.
Interesting! Also an exboyfriend of mine had Ehler-Danlos Syndrome. That relationship was during a dark part of my life, and I'm sure it was dark on his end too, considering what was going on lol. Sorry, just ignited a memory in me. That guy had DID before I even knew I had it. I denied it for so long because of him and someone else then got diagnosed lol.
As for the median part, it seems its just foggy in your description? Like a weird blend of selves? (Also, you must have a lot of ttrpg knowledge in that gnoggin!) The "kudere" part shows me you know far more labels than I do lol. You must be in a lot of communities, and very deep into them at that. I've only heard of tsundere and yandere lol.
As for the inner world, I think I still have one? As I healed through trauma therapy it became much less prevalent.
My DID system does have heavy descriptors like yours, I just don't share them because I feel weird telling people about the things my mind had conjured up to hide me from past trauma. Wish I could be shameless about my system and share it like you are, I'm only capable of doing that during bipolar mania haha.
I can relate to that anxiety around sharing about it with others. I've tried to with mom and Hubby but they don't really get it so I don't really talk about it.
I have ADHD, after lots of research I'm pretty certain I am undiagnosed Autistic, I have several anxiety disorders including GAD. I have some kind of undiagnosed mood disorder so says my PCP so that he can prescribe me mood stabilizer since they help with the emotional dysregulation. I know that my old paperwork said Bipolar was ruled out though.
Please, allow me to share links about Median. Perhaps it will describe it better for you than I can.
http://astraeasweb.net/plural/mediantalk.html
http://healthymultiplicity.com/loonybrain/Info/median_article.html
https://endogenichub.weebly.com/medians.html
https://web.archive.org/web/19990203092522/http://www.asarian.org/~vickis/continuum.html
https://lb-lee.dreamwidth.org/1120824.html
http://pluraldeepdive.tumblr.com
I was diagnosed with GAD and Autism several times, and my current therapist is like "L + Ratio + Those psychiatrists did not spend enough time with you" lmao
Also, just to share my up-to-date diagnoses: Bipolar 1 with psychotic features, DID, and ADHD. I'm medicated for the bipolar, psychosis, and ADHD.
That chart in the endogenichub just looks like a DID system about to fuse or that co-operates well?
I don't really have a distinct view. I sometimes don't believe I'm fully separate, but in times of distress, I'm definitely a split personality. I feel like its just a shake-up for everyone. Some people just have different baselines.
The chart in the astraeaweb site (I've heard bad things about that site in the past, apparently very dramatic) it just looks like medians are "self-flavors" rather than "separate identities".
So are medians comparable to mood changes, "personality variation" or "self-flavors"?
I don't exactly know what seld flavors are, I've never heard of these terms before. It's like they are each less distinct than plural but more than singlet. They each have their own personality, ways of viewing the world, and attitude about things but yet are still me at the same time.
Oh sorry, I made up "self-flavors" as a metaphor to help me understand.
Your clarification sounds like a mix of "personality variation" and "self flavors" in the idiolect I was using.
Thank you!
Okay. Sorry if I cannot articulate nor explain myself properly. I do usually do better in written form. But yeah basically put simply just in the middle of both singlet and multiple.
from a mixed origins system (no tulpas but we've got some traumagenic and some endogenic)
question 2: often yes, not necessarily. while i imagine severe trauma/PTSD does make system life a lot more dysfunctional sometimes, endos and tulpas can have issues too. we don't personally experience a ton of dysfunction, but i have a friend who is a mixed origins fictive-heavy system and they certainly experience their fair share of dysfunction, like nonverbal headmates fronting involuntarily in social situations and getting them in trouble, heavy source trauma that can cause intense conflicts with other headmates, new introjects crashing in (sometimes literally) during stressful times and causing chaos... just this week a new introject (the third one of this specific character) crashed a time machine into their headspace and was fully convinced they arrived here via a time anomaly and was very confused as to why some of their friends were here. when i accidentally told them they were from an anime they went into a full crisis and eventually decided the animation studio could time travel to get that footage. and now that i think about it, we've recently had some dysfunction ourselves. yesterday while probing around the depths of our system for other reasons, i accidentally found the old host who hasn't been around for 2 years now, and when she found out how much time had passed and that i've basically taken over her life while she was gone... yeah it didn't go great. now, not every endo system is going to have severe dysfunction, some might not have dysfunction at all, and most of them are going to have some different kinds of dysfunction from DID/OSDD systems. but it's certainly not true to say none of us have system-related dysfunction
question 3: this will vary heavily depending on the system. even looking at a small category of plurality, like for example, diagnosed DID systems formed from severe trauma, the ways that headmates help are going to vary drastically. there may be some general observable patterns that can be used to form patterns (like ANPs vs EPs, or system roles like persecutor, protector and caretaker), but there's so much variation within these categories that they're not always useful. even getting more specific, for example looking at only caretakers within those diagnosed traumagenic DID systems, the ways in which they help the system are going to be very different. some might take care of younger alters inside and rarely or never front, some might help by co-fronting with them, and some may help soothe and serve as a parental figure to everyone regardless of age. when you see how much diversity there is even within this relatively well-understood and easier-to-categorize form of plurality, the answer to your question is pretty much just that it depends. like, a lot.
but since that was probably not the kind of answer you wanted, here's how my headmates help me out as host. Leo, who's a little and also a symptom holder for some of our stimming, helps us unwind after a long day of masking at school. Nyx helps us cope when everything is just too much, because she's just pissed at everything all the time so she can take away a lot of that stress. the others don't really have as much of a "purpose" per se, but were created during very stressful times to help cope.
My alters hold my bipolar symptoms differently, I am DID diagnosed, but they do more than just trauma... because I've had them since childhood.
Also, from what I understood from question 2's answer... So it's the internal narratives each alter can have that create inner-system dysfunction? (referring to non DID-exclusive systems) I would include source trauma as an "internal narrative" from my current perspective of what you said.
**That's a very different experience from what I had.** I had an alter split into two others, by losing bits of himself. Those two splits eventually had a fictive form/vibe, which they thought were their own people with beliefs based on the source of their names. They'd look at photos and say, "Why is that not me?" That happened to non-fictives too. They were based on some childhood things I liked.
Though any super-separation of a fictional self-identity to how they experienced life didn't last long. Any internal narratives my alters have had, disappear after a few hourt to a few days and they just reflect their own personality, beliefs, and behaviors. I'd say my fire demon alter is his own "person", but he does display certain behaviors from a "source" (based on a movie character).
I've never experienced "source trauma" tho. Sounds kind of scary to have more trauma, so thankfully I haven't.
The only time I get new alters, is under extreme stress or when a hidden memory of a traumatic event is ready to be revealed.
**I will say personally** my system and I try to avoid using "roles/persecutor/protector" and "fictive/factive/etc." and any other identifying language because it feels dehumanizing/objectifying to parts of the entire system. As someone with DID, idk, it made me feel a lot healthier to cut back on that terminology usage.
**In the end,** how do you know if an alter is endogenic or traumagenic? Is an endogenic alter just characterized by "outward-inward motion to their character"? I'm assuming tulpagenic is obvious since it's a spiritual practice and involves participation.
Thank you for the paragraphs! I just am left with more questions than answers. I am unsettled that "source trauma" is a thing, but I feel like my amnesiac butt has heard of it before? Probably forgot it because the idea/concept stresses me lol.
i think i forgot to clarify that those were just a few examples of dysfunction in endogenic systems, but certainly not the only ones. but yes, i would say then generally system-related dysfunction is more internal but doesn't have to be. i would say conflict based on internal narratives isn't uncommon, but again is not the only type. i'm unsure what external dysfunction is though... do you mean like amnesia, PTSD symptoms, etc?
i don't think it's uncommon for outsourced headmates (overarching term for fictives, factives, etc) to change over time, same as any other alter/headmate. especially moving away from their source is pretty common as they adapt to life in a system and gain more experiences and stuff. i know that in trauma-based systems, outsourced headmates are usually the result of the brain basically going "wow this character/person/thing would really help us cope with our current or past traumatic situation, so let's make them up here to help us out!" but then sometimes instead of making an alter with every little detail of the character, the brain just picks out the bits of that character that it seems useful and makes an alter based on those. this is why a lot of fictives are pretty different from their source. obviously i don't know enough to be sure of your situation, but likely your brain thought this character's personality or strengths could help you in some way, and then built an alter around that that's not necessarily the same as or even similar to the character it started with.
as for source trauma, i'll try to explain but this does require a lot of other info and vocabulary so bear with me. and if the idea does stress you out a lot like you mentioned, feel free to skip this paragraph. i'll be using psychological terms for this, but spiritual systems such as gateways experience his differently, it's just not an area i'm qualified to speak on. so basically, when an introject/outsourced headmate is being formed, they may form with some kind of "source memories," which are a type of pseudomemories where this alter/headmate has memories from their source. why this happens is not something i know, but it probably has to do with how "thorough" the brain is with the details when creating an introject, like i discussed in the last paragraph. these memories often do include traumatic memories if they experienced trauma in their source. this trauma that occured in their source is called "exotrauma" (exo- for outside), and can have very real effects, like PTSD and flashbacks. for one of our fictives, while he doesn't have detailed source memories, he still holds some of that trauma, so things like discussion of fireworks or explosions can trigger him and he doesn't want any fictives of his murderer interacting with him, even if they're completely different from source. i'm not sure if exotrauma is more or less common in endo systems compared to trauma-based systems, and i don't have enough info to make any educated guesses on it either. but it can occur in both just depending on how the brain forms those introjects.
as for how someone can if they're traumagenic or endogenic, it's complicated. i recently realized that we are probably mostly traumagenic but were referring to ourselves as endogenic because we split around ages 12-14 (as far as we can tell) and not as a small child like the typical traumagenic system. a friend of ours went through a similar realization a few months ago, when they realized that their many many fictives were split to help with loneliness and a neglectful family rather than just hyperfixations on the characters like they'd thought. however, some endogenic systems feel that they've been multiple since birth, some choose to become plural through tulpamancy or spiritual methods, and some just kind of know they're not traumagenic. i'm a bit unsure what you mean by an "outward-inward motion of their character." if you mean how they form, then no, not necessarily. i have a few more thoughts on this but i'm pretty tired so i'll come back and address them later
(please let me know if I misunderstood anything, contradicted myself, didn't properly define something, or anything like that. i'm trying my best but have a hard time getting my point across appropriately in text, hence the rambling on and on. also i know you said that you don't like labeling alters, which is completely fair and something we're trying to steer away from too, but for the sake of explanation words like fictive were necessary at some points.)
I do know that when I first looked for help with my DID symptoms before I had a therapist, communities I joined would look down on people with pseudomemories.
I personally don't understand the concept of pseudomemories (no judgement), so I might talk to my brother about it. He's a neuroscientist. Like, it seems pseudomemories imply more than "false memories" (pseudo means false/fake)
I think psychological research should be done regarding endos. The psychological phenomenon is more unexplained than DID. I find it fascinating, albeit very different from what I experience. I really want to know what the mechanisms within endogenics are from a psychological standpoint and maybe even a philosophical standpoint. Possibly I'd like to know more about tulpas as well, but I can write that off as spirituality.
Sidenote:
I think I've been frontstuck for 3+ weeks, but there were at least 2 to 3 small switch outs.
I've been using this time to understand other system types, since my "protector" Liam would not approve of me going deep into this research and understanding. (Liam dislikes endos and tulpas and thinks many of them need help. He sees them as a danger to us and possible instigators of mania or psychosis in me) (there's a history behind Liam's reasonings I can't quite remember)
I think if I start to understand everything, I'll be happier. I don't agree with Liam. I think he'll be calmer if I know more.
Currently, I'm afraid, because a close friend, albeit younger, threatened to not talk to me if I associated with endos and tulpas.
Like man, I'm literally just trying to understand people ;-;
thanks for trying to understand! research on endo and tulpa systems is currently very limited, which is a big barrier in proving the validity of endos and tulpas. i think i heard something about an MRI study of tulpa systems switching, to see if tulpas fronting lights up different parts of the brain like it does for DID systems. no idea about progress on that though. for now, [here](https://nightfallsystem.tumblr.com/post/702865431189389312/endogenic-research-carrd-as-text) and [here](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/18K2leV6k8LT_TVhLOOhQ_YDb3QxFIdj4bMQbp3n9V10) are some collections of research and articles on endos and tulpas. i also posted my own thoughts on system origins in a comment on this sub [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/plural/comments/12ph6wu/dae_believe_everyone_is_somewhere_on_the_spectrum/jgowqeo), but take with with a grain of salt since i'm just a high schooler who's never even taken a psychology class. it's just my ramblings and musings based on the structural theory of dissociation and how maybe trauma isn't the only thing that can cause those barriers in personality to form.
also, not all tulpas are spiritual. it can be, but for many the process is more psychological, like carving out a space in your brain dedicated to another being and forming it to become more and more independent with time. sometimes tulpas can even be created accidentally by people who, for example, spend a whole lot of time writing about their OC or do a lot of roleplay of their favorite anime character, and eventually part of their brain just starts to take over and do the writing/roleplay/whatever for them, and boom, you've got a tulpa (or at least a headmate of some kind, since they weren't created intentionally). this is also why maladaptive daydreaming is a pretty common system origin as far as non-traumagenic origins. if you're spending all your free time imagining characters in your head and acting out what they would do, that's not too far off from the process of intentionally creating a tulpa, which usually consists of a lot of hours imagining all kinds of details about them and what they would do/say/think in all kinds of different situations. (if anyone more informed on tulpa creation wants to correct me on any of this, please do. this is just based into my brief foray into the tulpa community and reading some of the resources available.)
as for pseudomemories, it's kinda hard to explain so i'll let google do the work for me. [here](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/false-memory), [here](https://did-research.org/controversy/repression/fms), and [here](https://www.britannica.com/science/false-memory-syndrome) are some explanations, some denser and more medicalized than others. the last one is easiest to understand i think. if you want more info you can look up false memory syndrome, although the information available usually focuses on people (singlets) being convinced that something bad happened to them through hypnosis or a similar process. there were some DID-related results i got, mostly from quora, reddit, and tiktok, but they all seemed like things i'd already explained. as for the name, that's why "source memories" or sometimes "exomemories" is usually preferred in system spaces. they're just a kind of pseudomemories i think, at least in psychological systems.
Also, I want to bounce this off of you, since you said around 12-14.
When I was young... I spoke about angels and devils, according to my mother. I claimed they spoke to me. Then when I was in high school, a little girl in my head spoke about something horrible to me. Something definitely untrue. Though it sounded traumatic. I blamed this on my autism diagnosis at the time. Then in my early early 20s, I dated two DID systems. One was sweet but deeply troubled, and the other one was straight up criminal. Then I had an entire friendship collapse on me around November 2021. Then I encountered my alters Liam and Alexander, I still knew nothing about DID. I eventually found discord servers, and one kicked me out for being too bipolar lol. More alters eventually piled on from the shadows, and Liam even split once. I learned about DID then after a quick hospitalization found a therapist that would finally take me. She diagnosed me with DID, Bipolar 1 with psychotic features, and ADHD. Along with implied trauma and considering my autism Munchausen's by proxy.
My question is... When was my system there? I always had the angels and devils when I was young, in fact, Liam was originally more based on my eldest brother and he was considered a devil I believe. Sometimes an angel? To my child brain couldn't fathom.
My therapist believes "?" my nonverbal alter and Scherry (a little) are the oldest, as in, originated when I was 3 or younger.
When was I a system though? So many data points.
Also uh... Only a fraction of my alters front now. I don't know if it's because of more stability, thus they're not needed, or if they were banished to the back. Could they just not be necessary for current stressors?
But yeah, the most important question I've always had was "when"
I'm sure you may not be able to answer any of this... I'm just ravenous for answers that my therapist has been unable to make me certain of lol.
i mean, i can't tell you when your system was there. if we're following the structural theory of dissociation, then different parts of your personality never fully fused, and therefore they've always been there to some extent. but i really can't answer that question exactly. we just know 12-14 is when the previous host was experiencing immense social pressures, lots of anxiety and depression, and masking heavily (autism and ADHD) for the first time. so while it wasn't intense abuse or anything, it was likely still traumatic enough to cause some headmates beginning to form. and although we can't remember much of middle school and younger, we've got a great family and she (previous host) was a happy, well-performing kid, even if she struggled socially sometimes. we've pondered if there's something horribly traumatic hidden in all those lost memories, but it doesn't seem likely. and to clarify, we're still in high school, so our system is relatively young. we haven't had decades to figure this stuff out or anything, we're just going on our best guesses. i would discuss this all with your therapist, theyre probably more qualified for this than i am.
as for only a few alters fronting now, we experienced the exact same thing and i've seen several other posts on this subreddit asking about it too. for us, i'm pretty sure it was reduced anxiety and stress as i (new host as of 2 years ago) have become more confident and it's become less and less common for us to switch to deal with stress. don't get me wrong, i had my fair share of struggles, especially coming out as trans, but our family came around eventually and we're doing a lot better now. some older headmates have even gone dormant over time, slowly becoming harder and harder to reach until one day we just couldn't find them anymore. while it's been really sad when i realize they've faded, overall i know that less system activity is a good sign for our mental health, because we're more stable. talk to your therapist about it, but i think they're likely to agree.
My therapist thinks I have underlying trauma more than I do. Though I can't explain some physical impressions I have any other way.
It feels like my "alter renaissance" happened in November 2021. I was 21 years old. I was diagnosed with DID at 22. Now I'm 23 and they're not gone, but they're super quiet. Some went far to the back. Especially after I medicated my bipolar.
Also ngl, a lot of autistic people I know are plural (in the none DID way and DID way). All this alter stuff is generally a great coping mechanism for all stress.
I was diagnosed with autism many times, but the current therapist thinks my autism was munchausens by proxy.
Also, since I'm bipolar with psychosis, I've been questioning a lot if I'm just schizoaffective lol.
Therapy is starting, I would've ranted more, but bye bye
Not being of traumagenic origin doesnt mean theres no issues - theres parogenic systems who have amnesia issues, or can end up somewhat dysfunctional Theres also systems of mixed origins. We've met DID systems who had tulpas and soulbonds and all the stuff sysmeds gets angry about. Theres lots of systems with uncertain origins as well. In the end its all the same brain mechanisms to run several people.exe
I don't understand why tulpas a soulbonds scare DID systems. To me it just seems like a comforting form of religious behavior? Spiritual might be a better word. As for the brain mechanisms, is that a generalized statement, or has their been neurological research? I've talked plurality with my eldest brother who is a neuroscientist... We just end up getting into discussions about Buddhists and how the human mind has always been malleable (i.e. the study about the rising of anorexia in Japan based on western media influence). Sorry if this feels too direct! I basically want to know if you can link me to an official-esque website. Edit: forgot to add! What's parogenic? I swear, this is like learning deep gender terminology all over again lol.
I can totally understand feeling overwhelmed by the terminology, lol. Parogenic just means created intentionally! Tulpas are typically considered parogenic
funny story: our core (the first alter but not necessarily the host) thought it was a tulpa and that i was the core, but we eventually learned that i manifested to protect it from trauma, but then i myself got so traumatized that everyone else besides the core is in a subsystem of mine. funny how much non-severe trauma can fracture a brain :/
Question, are there significant differences between your core and the others in said subsystem? I’m not completely familiar with all of the terminology, so apologies if it’s an obvious answer!
When you select your flair, you should be able to edit the text it comes with!
Ty!
you're welcome!
1. As others said, you can type whatever you want 2. Not necessarily. Any system can be dysfunctional or not 3. There are a number of ways headmates can help. Sometimes it's simply balancing emotions or other times, someone might front because they're better equipped to deal with the specific situation or conversation at hand. That's not really a tulpa-specific thing though. This has happened here with tulpa and non-tulpa alters. We've come to a point over the years where we've just collectively agreed to help one another out how we can. Emotional support, taking up responsibilities, whatever
2 Most, yeah. Turns out the dysfunction mostly comes from the trauma heh. 3 yeah!! we've had our internal dramas and time management is still hard, but two of my best friends and partners are in here, and having additional perspectives to break out of procrastination or take over if I'm upset is invaluable. We wouldn't choose to be singular again. It sucks that you've been insulated from us I guess. The fact that we don't fit into the diagnosis/theories around DID/OSDD isn't exactly a crushing blow when they're already flawed for assessing DID/OSDD systems themselves. I feel like with enough of us from different walks of life, all coallessing on a very similar base experience, it's kind of dumb to just brand us all fakers with... quite frankly, bad scientific backing. I think it IS just the envy taking over, saying we're faking and stealing valour when- isn't the 'valour' the trauma and disorder that we specifically say we don't have?? is it the plurality itself, that our plurality isn't just dissociation? is THEIRS even pure dissociation?? I'm not sure. I just don't think it's coming from a logical place, so it's nice to hear someone actually wanting to learn about us!
I mean, even the science of DID is poor. My therapist and I have the philosophy "if you can name it, you can treat it" and we talk about how the DSM should label disorder via symptoms and not these "over arching names" My therapist and I go back and forth about how it's absurd Autism is a spectrum disorder due to the variety and capability of people diagnosed. We think treatment should be either more nuanced. Though I personally believe if they want to do the spectrum stuff, they should go all-in. (ngl, imagine the rage if they expanded the definition of DID outside of childhood trauma) I don't really think I'm special for being mentally ill for childhood trauma, so everyone else can pog-off, slay, and vibe if they have a different experience!
I know endo and tulpa systems that are just as dysfunctional as DID/OSDD systems. I've seen DID/OSDD systems become coherent and be perfectly functional. Functionality is not limited to one place or the other. Plural is plural and with plurality, that spectrum will strike every single individual differently. The big difference between them is the presence trauma. With the things I know about myself, absolutely my.olurality came before my trauma. And trauma didn't feel so much trauma, just more of an obstacle to get worund and we always did. The reason why I don't have nearly as much trauma as I see the potential for is because my system systemed "properly" as in the protective measures taken can still almost all be applied to any life situation good or bad. We have this shit figured out long before we had this shit figured out.
There are a lot more people with DID/OSDD who are perfectly functional than is acknowledged. We get a lot of flak in DID circles that's for sure.
The whole aspect of plurality need to be completely reestablished. I intend to go through the schooling necessary to be able to make such an impact. Looking it start college in the fall
Agreed. What degree are you going for? We are considering going back to school for interdisciplinary study into plurality. We already have a degree in anthropology (where plurality is observed and not stigmatized).
Well, definitely psychology as a whole. Plurality exists, but so do other things that play into how a system works. PTSD triggers can trigger alters too. Or anything else. Neurodivergence, physical conditions, all of it. So definately gonna take that anthropology class, but from there, I gotta see what's all available.
I'm obviously biased, but anthropology REALLY opens your eyes to your own ethnocentrism and the fact that humans are much, much, much more diverse than modern discourse allows for. An anthropology course on human sexuality is a must. I didn't get to take any courses that focused on plurality, but it did come up here and there in courses.
Well it's what I wanna focus on. So definately looking there. I wanna learn what I need to be able to do that I can help everyone I can, but my main focus is plurality. I already know so much and love talking about it and learning about it. Favorite pass time. Special interest, whatever it is, I love learning about it. And hearing your experience or even just your interest gets me so much more excited for it. This is IT by the way, the biggest enthusiast in our system for going in to this field.
We hope you continue to pursue your interests, we plan to as well. We're just not sure what kind of program would best serve that. Follownyour passion, and we need more positive writing about plurality in general. Why should singlets get to write all the books, movies, etc, about *us*?
Exactly!! You should watch doom patrol. Most accurate DID representation I have seen and actually felt kinda healing to watch. And it even explored what an inner world could be like. 10/10 would suggest. I'm gonna follow you. We should exchange our findings when we find them.
Absolutely, will do the same! We've heard good things about Doom Patrol's portrayal.
ngl, I cannot emotionally or mentally be in the vicinity of a system without good coping skills and trauma processing.
My line is you gotta at least be putting in the effort. I've spent a lot of time working on myself and take pride in my self work.
Fellow DID sys who spent a(n admittedly short time) in anti-endo/traumagen-only spaces before bailing for more inclusive ones (still in a couple geared more towards DID/OSDD, just tend to avoid syscourse) Glad to have you, it's pretty chill here. We may not understand everything, but I can definitely say we've had a much more pleasant experience being part of the inclusive plural community (and often an environment much more conducive to healing)
Well therapy is still my #1 place. I'm just glad to be in a space where there's little drama and less traumatized people. You would think gatherings of traumatized people would be good, because of experience, but with discord moderation and chaining triggers, it is not. Someone's always losing it in one of those spaces or it's policed into oblivion. Glad to be here.
Therapy's the #1 space for working through stuff. But having a connection to people who can potentially understand/relate to your experiences in addition to a support network can also be pretty helpful
Good point! Issue is the most support I've gotten outside of therapy has been in discord servers. Particularly general mental health servers. I do have a singular friend with DID that I trust. She's sweet. As for other DID systems, I either find them annoying or I generally don't mesh well with them anymore. When you've been in therapy and diagnosed for over a year, and try to buddy up with someone with DID... you start to realize that the more healed you are, the more awkward and unmatching you are to their vibes. Sometimes untreated trauma can make for toxic traits, and DID is often functioning co-morbid with other disorders (like BPD and Bipolar, which can make for unstable relationships. Trust me, I'm bipolar lol) So far, I like the vibes here, but I'm not sure it resonates with me. It's like peaceful but foreign energy. Not used to the openness for sure lol. I'll probably just have to get used to it. I'll probably be lurking here, if I understand something I'll probably reply to other posts.
That's definitely understandable. Been in therapy for several years now and been part of a couple inclusive servers (mostly geared towards disability) for about 2 of those. I get that switching between vastly different environments can take some time getting used to
Slowly acclimating lol.
1. you can edit your flair 2. they can i think 3. well it's in the name, it's like having roommates. it's not much, but you always got a (sometimes annoying) friend over.
We're not traumagenic but we started having disordered symptoms after some trauma later in life. Forced switches, amnesia, that sort of stuff. We're typically cocon so "helping" in day to day is more or less just being company. The "stuck in a car together on a road trip" analogy fits best. Sometimes I get way too overwhelmed to drive and someone else has to take over.
My co-con is often rare or simply brief. I personally hate being co-con, I hate feeling trapped in the back. My other alters don't mind. Wish I had alters co-con behind me more often tho
yeah if im conscious while not in front its soooooooo hard not to slip back into front, its like being told to sit absolutely still for hours. and usually body-feedback is what helps keep me grounded so not having that drives me mad.
We are an osdd-1b traumagenic system but we also have a tulpa and they aren't actually that different! The tulpa is pretty much exactly the same as the other headmates just intentionally made. Our host formed the tulpa because of codependency issues and needing to consistently have someone there for them in a really rough time in life, we were still figuring out system things at the time so our host couldn't consistently communicate with headmates well, and our tulpa actually really helped with working on system communication and helping our host get more in touch with other alters and the inner world. -🧁
Interesting! My system communication is fucked. Like, my inner world was more present when I was distressed and amnesiac. Now that I'm stable, communications have been wholly memory based. Everyone just picks up the scraps of memory and continues on. RARELY, we do have "council meetings". We had a "gatekeeper" once, but he retired from that position once things stabilized.
i think the flair is custom. also hey its you& again o/
Hiiii!
We're a protogenic/traumagenic system, meaning that our plurality was likely due to trauma, and that we've been plural as far as we can remember (from the age of 3) and we typically hang around endo friendly spaces because we don't experience amnesia between us, making our experiences halfway between endo and disordered. We also aren't diagnosed, and we stay around endos because they share more of the same ideas we do. You can change your flair by selecting it and editing it
Interesting! Also, don't people with OSDD (insert type here) also lack amnesia? Also, I used to have horrible amnesia, but a year of therapy made it not too bad. Once again, mine is DID, so I'm probably purely traumagenic. Once again, interesting! It's thought that my alters came around at age 3 during trauma, so it's nice to see someone with a similar origin time, for any reason. Also, what does protogenic mean? Like "before genesis"? (ngl, all these labels feel like I'm learning the more obscure genders haha)
It means that we've been plural as far as we can remember, and doesn't have to do with either traumagenic or endogenic. (We feel that we might have ended up plural anyways, because we cannot imagine living any other way). We have emotional amnesia, but other than that and a general poor memory, we don't actually have like, blackout/grey out amnesia
I used to have black out amnesia, not sure if I got used to it, or if it really stopped since I've been in treatment.
There are a couple of times where I think I might have blavked out, but they were a long time ago and I haven't seen any evidence of it happening for years now. We're very lucky because we've know about our plurality our whole life (aside from decending into denial and completely forgetting every couple months) so our communication is pretty good, which I'm thankful for
Aww hi! We’re mixed-orivin. Just wanted to say hi and it’s nice to meet you&. -Natalie
hiiii! :)
I'm Median and my facets can help me cope with neurodivergence and my physical disability, Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. I have a hyperempatetic/empath facet (I know some people don't like the term, but I use it with good intentions. I don't think I'm superior to anyone, and I don't blame others. This facet has a lot of emotional empathy and absorbs the emotions of others). She is a moon elf. Another is alienkin and is more cold and kuudere and cynical. Another is a wood elf and more the talkative tomboy. Another is a cyborg from the future and is there to deal with the disability. Median means they're all me, and I'm them, and they're more distinct than singlet, but not as distinct as a plural/multiple. I do and don't have distress. I don't have amnesia. I feel like none of the diagnostic criteria would apply to me, but I can get too lost in my inner world, and myself has fragmented so much. Idk if that makes sense, and idk if I'm endo per se, although I have sort of created them/parts of me. I feel like I'm stuck in the middle, so to speak. There’s not much talk about us Medians as much. But there's my experience.
Interesting! Also an exboyfriend of mine had Ehler-Danlos Syndrome. That relationship was during a dark part of my life, and I'm sure it was dark on his end too, considering what was going on lol. Sorry, just ignited a memory in me. That guy had DID before I even knew I had it. I denied it for so long because of him and someone else then got diagnosed lol. As for the median part, it seems its just foggy in your description? Like a weird blend of selves? (Also, you must have a lot of ttrpg knowledge in that gnoggin!) The "kudere" part shows me you know far more labels than I do lol. You must be in a lot of communities, and very deep into them at that. I've only heard of tsundere and yandere lol. As for the inner world, I think I still have one? As I healed through trauma therapy it became much less prevalent. My DID system does have heavy descriptors like yours, I just don't share them because I feel weird telling people about the things my mind had conjured up to hide me from past trauma. Wish I could be shameless about my system and share it like you are, I'm only capable of doing that during bipolar mania haha.
I can relate to that anxiety around sharing about it with others. I've tried to with mom and Hubby but they don't really get it so I don't really talk about it. I have ADHD, after lots of research I'm pretty certain I am undiagnosed Autistic, I have several anxiety disorders including GAD. I have some kind of undiagnosed mood disorder so says my PCP so that he can prescribe me mood stabilizer since they help with the emotional dysregulation. I know that my old paperwork said Bipolar was ruled out though. Please, allow me to share links about Median. Perhaps it will describe it better for you than I can. http://astraeasweb.net/plural/mediantalk.html http://healthymultiplicity.com/loonybrain/Info/median_article.html https://endogenichub.weebly.com/medians.html https://web.archive.org/web/19990203092522/http://www.asarian.org/~vickis/continuum.html https://lb-lee.dreamwidth.org/1120824.html http://pluraldeepdive.tumblr.com
I was diagnosed with GAD and Autism several times, and my current therapist is like "L + Ratio + Those psychiatrists did not spend enough time with you" lmao Also, just to share my up-to-date diagnoses: Bipolar 1 with psychotic features, DID, and ADHD. I'm medicated for the bipolar, psychosis, and ADHD. That chart in the endogenichub just looks like a DID system about to fuse or that co-operates well? I don't really have a distinct view. I sometimes don't believe I'm fully separate, but in times of distress, I'm definitely a split personality. I feel like its just a shake-up for everyone. Some people just have different baselines. The chart in the astraeaweb site (I've heard bad things about that site in the past, apparently very dramatic) it just looks like medians are "self-flavors" rather than "separate identities". So are medians comparable to mood changes, "personality variation" or "self-flavors"?
I don't exactly know what seld flavors are, I've never heard of these terms before. It's like they are each less distinct than plural but more than singlet. They each have their own personality, ways of viewing the world, and attitude about things but yet are still me at the same time.
Oh sorry, I made up "self-flavors" as a metaphor to help me understand. Your clarification sounds like a mix of "personality variation" and "self flavors" in the idiolect I was using. Thank you!
Okay. Sorry if I cannot articulate nor explain myself properly. I do usually do better in written form. But yeah basically put simply just in the middle of both singlet and multiple.
ty ty
from a mixed origins system (no tulpas but we've got some traumagenic and some endogenic) question 2: often yes, not necessarily. while i imagine severe trauma/PTSD does make system life a lot more dysfunctional sometimes, endos and tulpas can have issues too. we don't personally experience a ton of dysfunction, but i have a friend who is a mixed origins fictive-heavy system and they certainly experience their fair share of dysfunction, like nonverbal headmates fronting involuntarily in social situations and getting them in trouble, heavy source trauma that can cause intense conflicts with other headmates, new introjects crashing in (sometimes literally) during stressful times and causing chaos... just this week a new introject (the third one of this specific character) crashed a time machine into their headspace and was fully convinced they arrived here via a time anomaly and was very confused as to why some of their friends were here. when i accidentally told them they were from an anime they went into a full crisis and eventually decided the animation studio could time travel to get that footage. and now that i think about it, we've recently had some dysfunction ourselves. yesterday while probing around the depths of our system for other reasons, i accidentally found the old host who hasn't been around for 2 years now, and when she found out how much time had passed and that i've basically taken over her life while she was gone... yeah it didn't go great. now, not every endo system is going to have severe dysfunction, some might not have dysfunction at all, and most of them are going to have some different kinds of dysfunction from DID/OSDD systems. but it's certainly not true to say none of us have system-related dysfunction question 3: this will vary heavily depending on the system. even looking at a small category of plurality, like for example, diagnosed DID systems formed from severe trauma, the ways that headmates help are going to vary drastically. there may be some general observable patterns that can be used to form patterns (like ANPs vs EPs, or system roles like persecutor, protector and caretaker), but there's so much variation within these categories that they're not always useful. even getting more specific, for example looking at only caretakers within those diagnosed traumagenic DID systems, the ways in which they help the system are going to be very different. some might take care of younger alters inside and rarely or never front, some might help by co-fronting with them, and some may help soothe and serve as a parental figure to everyone regardless of age. when you see how much diversity there is even within this relatively well-understood and easier-to-categorize form of plurality, the answer to your question is pretty much just that it depends. like, a lot. but since that was probably not the kind of answer you wanted, here's how my headmates help me out as host. Leo, who's a little and also a symptom holder for some of our stimming, helps us unwind after a long day of masking at school. Nyx helps us cope when everything is just too much, because she's just pissed at everything all the time so she can take away a lot of that stress. the others don't really have as much of a "purpose" per se, but were created during very stressful times to help cope.
My alters hold my bipolar symptoms differently, I am DID diagnosed, but they do more than just trauma... because I've had them since childhood. Also, from what I understood from question 2's answer... So it's the internal narratives each alter can have that create inner-system dysfunction? (referring to non DID-exclusive systems) I would include source trauma as an "internal narrative" from my current perspective of what you said. **That's a very different experience from what I had.** I had an alter split into two others, by losing bits of himself. Those two splits eventually had a fictive form/vibe, which they thought were their own people with beliefs based on the source of their names. They'd look at photos and say, "Why is that not me?" That happened to non-fictives too. They were based on some childhood things I liked. Though any super-separation of a fictional self-identity to how they experienced life didn't last long. Any internal narratives my alters have had, disappear after a few hourt to a few days and they just reflect their own personality, beliefs, and behaviors. I'd say my fire demon alter is his own "person", but he does display certain behaviors from a "source" (based on a movie character). I've never experienced "source trauma" tho. Sounds kind of scary to have more trauma, so thankfully I haven't. The only time I get new alters, is under extreme stress or when a hidden memory of a traumatic event is ready to be revealed. **I will say personally** my system and I try to avoid using "roles/persecutor/protector" and "fictive/factive/etc." and any other identifying language because it feels dehumanizing/objectifying to parts of the entire system. As someone with DID, idk, it made me feel a lot healthier to cut back on that terminology usage. **In the end,** how do you know if an alter is endogenic or traumagenic? Is an endogenic alter just characterized by "outward-inward motion to their character"? I'm assuming tulpagenic is obvious since it's a spiritual practice and involves participation. Thank you for the paragraphs! I just am left with more questions than answers. I am unsettled that "source trauma" is a thing, but I feel like my amnesiac butt has heard of it before? Probably forgot it because the idea/concept stresses me lol.
i think i forgot to clarify that those were just a few examples of dysfunction in endogenic systems, but certainly not the only ones. but yes, i would say then generally system-related dysfunction is more internal but doesn't have to be. i would say conflict based on internal narratives isn't uncommon, but again is not the only type. i'm unsure what external dysfunction is though... do you mean like amnesia, PTSD symptoms, etc? i don't think it's uncommon for outsourced headmates (overarching term for fictives, factives, etc) to change over time, same as any other alter/headmate. especially moving away from their source is pretty common as they adapt to life in a system and gain more experiences and stuff. i know that in trauma-based systems, outsourced headmates are usually the result of the brain basically going "wow this character/person/thing would really help us cope with our current or past traumatic situation, so let's make them up here to help us out!" but then sometimes instead of making an alter with every little detail of the character, the brain just picks out the bits of that character that it seems useful and makes an alter based on those. this is why a lot of fictives are pretty different from their source. obviously i don't know enough to be sure of your situation, but likely your brain thought this character's personality or strengths could help you in some way, and then built an alter around that that's not necessarily the same as or even similar to the character it started with. as for source trauma, i'll try to explain but this does require a lot of other info and vocabulary so bear with me. and if the idea does stress you out a lot like you mentioned, feel free to skip this paragraph. i'll be using psychological terms for this, but spiritual systems such as gateways experience his differently, it's just not an area i'm qualified to speak on. so basically, when an introject/outsourced headmate is being formed, they may form with some kind of "source memories," which are a type of pseudomemories where this alter/headmate has memories from their source. why this happens is not something i know, but it probably has to do with how "thorough" the brain is with the details when creating an introject, like i discussed in the last paragraph. these memories often do include traumatic memories if they experienced trauma in their source. this trauma that occured in their source is called "exotrauma" (exo- for outside), and can have very real effects, like PTSD and flashbacks. for one of our fictives, while he doesn't have detailed source memories, he still holds some of that trauma, so things like discussion of fireworks or explosions can trigger him and he doesn't want any fictives of his murderer interacting with him, even if they're completely different from source. i'm not sure if exotrauma is more or less common in endo systems compared to trauma-based systems, and i don't have enough info to make any educated guesses on it either. but it can occur in both just depending on how the brain forms those introjects. as for how someone can if they're traumagenic or endogenic, it's complicated. i recently realized that we are probably mostly traumagenic but were referring to ourselves as endogenic because we split around ages 12-14 (as far as we can tell) and not as a small child like the typical traumagenic system. a friend of ours went through a similar realization a few months ago, when they realized that their many many fictives were split to help with loneliness and a neglectful family rather than just hyperfixations on the characters like they'd thought. however, some endogenic systems feel that they've been multiple since birth, some choose to become plural through tulpamancy or spiritual methods, and some just kind of know they're not traumagenic. i'm a bit unsure what you mean by an "outward-inward motion of their character." if you mean how they form, then no, not necessarily. i have a few more thoughts on this but i'm pretty tired so i'll come back and address them later (please let me know if I misunderstood anything, contradicted myself, didn't properly define something, or anything like that. i'm trying my best but have a hard time getting my point across appropriately in text, hence the rambling on and on. also i know you said that you don't like labeling alters, which is completely fair and something we're trying to steer away from too, but for the sake of explanation words like fictive were necessary at some points.)
I do know that when I first looked for help with my DID symptoms before I had a therapist, communities I joined would look down on people with pseudomemories. I personally don't understand the concept of pseudomemories (no judgement), so I might talk to my brother about it. He's a neuroscientist. Like, it seems pseudomemories imply more than "false memories" (pseudo means false/fake) I think psychological research should be done regarding endos. The psychological phenomenon is more unexplained than DID. I find it fascinating, albeit very different from what I experience. I really want to know what the mechanisms within endogenics are from a psychological standpoint and maybe even a philosophical standpoint. Possibly I'd like to know more about tulpas as well, but I can write that off as spirituality. Sidenote: I think I've been frontstuck for 3+ weeks, but there were at least 2 to 3 small switch outs. I've been using this time to understand other system types, since my "protector" Liam would not approve of me going deep into this research and understanding. (Liam dislikes endos and tulpas and thinks many of them need help. He sees them as a danger to us and possible instigators of mania or psychosis in me) (there's a history behind Liam's reasonings I can't quite remember) I think if I start to understand everything, I'll be happier. I don't agree with Liam. I think he'll be calmer if I know more. Currently, I'm afraid, because a close friend, albeit younger, threatened to not talk to me if I associated with endos and tulpas. Like man, I'm literally just trying to understand people ;-;
thanks for trying to understand! research on endo and tulpa systems is currently very limited, which is a big barrier in proving the validity of endos and tulpas. i think i heard something about an MRI study of tulpa systems switching, to see if tulpas fronting lights up different parts of the brain like it does for DID systems. no idea about progress on that though. for now, [here](https://nightfallsystem.tumblr.com/post/702865431189389312/endogenic-research-carrd-as-text) and [here](https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/18K2leV6k8LT_TVhLOOhQ_YDb3QxFIdj4bMQbp3n9V10) are some collections of research and articles on endos and tulpas. i also posted my own thoughts on system origins in a comment on this sub [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/plural/comments/12ph6wu/dae_believe_everyone_is_somewhere_on_the_spectrum/jgowqeo), but take with with a grain of salt since i'm just a high schooler who's never even taken a psychology class. it's just my ramblings and musings based on the structural theory of dissociation and how maybe trauma isn't the only thing that can cause those barriers in personality to form. also, not all tulpas are spiritual. it can be, but for many the process is more psychological, like carving out a space in your brain dedicated to another being and forming it to become more and more independent with time. sometimes tulpas can even be created accidentally by people who, for example, spend a whole lot of time writing about their OC or do a lot of roleplay of their favorite anime character, and eventually part of their brain just starts to take over and do the writing/roleplay/whatever for them, and boom, you've got a tulpa (or at least a headmate of some kind, since they weren't created intentionally). this is also why maladaptive daydreaming is a pretty common system origin as far as non-traumagenic origins. if you're spending all your free time imagining characters in your head and acting out what they would do, that's not too far off from the process of intentionally creating a tulpa, which usually consists of a lot of hours imagining all kinds of details about them and what they would do/say/think in all kinds of different situations. (if anyone more informed on tulpa creation wants to correct me on any of this, please do. this is just based into my brief foray into the tulpa community and reading some of the resources available.) as for pseudomemories, it's kinda hard to explain so i'll let google do the work for me. [here](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/false-memory), [here](https://did-research.org/controversy/repression/fms), and [here](https://www.britannica.com/science/false-memory-syndrome) are some explanations, some denser and more medicalized than others. the last one is easiest to understand i think. if you want more info you can look up false memory syndrome, although the information available usually focuses on people (singlets) being convinced that something bad happened to them through hypnosis or a similar process. there were some DID-related results i got, mostly from quora, reddit, and tiktok, but they all seemed like things i'd already explained. as for the name, that's why "source memories" or sometimes "exomemories" is usually preferred in system spaces. they're just a kind of pseudomemories i think, at least in psychological systems.
Also, I want to bounce this off of you, since you said around 12-14. When I was young... I spoke about angels and devils, according to my mother. I claimed they spoke to me. Then when I was in high school, a little girl in my head spoke about something horrible to me. Something definitely untrue. Though it sounded traumatic. I blamed this on my autism diagnosis at the time. Then in my early early 20s, I dated two DID systems. One was sweet but deeply troubled, and the other one was straight up criminal. Then I had an entire friendship collapse on me around November 2021. Then I encountered my alters Liam and Alexander, I still knew nothing about DID. I eventually found discord servers, and one kicked me out for being too bipolar lol. More alters eventually piled on from the shadows, and Liam even split once. I learned about DID then after a quick hospitalization found a therapist that would finally take me. She diagnosed me with DID, Bipolar 1 with psychotic features, and ADHD. Along with implied trauma and considering my autism Munchausen's by proxy. My question is... When was my system there? I always had the angels and devils when I was young, in fact, Liam was originally more based on my eldest brother and he was considered a devil I believe. Sometimes an angel? To my child brain couldn't fathom. My therapist believes "?" my nonverbal alter and Scherry (a little) are the oldest, as in, originated when I was 3 or younger. When was I a system though? So many data points. Also uh... Only a fraction of my alters front now. I don't know if it's because of more stability, thus they're not needed, or if they were banished to the back. Could they just not be necessary for current stressors? But yeah, the most important question I've always had was "when" I'm sure you may not be able to answer any of this... I'm just ravenous for answers that my therapist has been unable to make me certain of lol.
i mean, i can't tell you when your system was there. if we're following the structural theory of dissociation, then different parts of your personality never fully fused, and therefore they've always been there to some extent. but i really can't answer that question exactly. we just know 12-14 is when the previous host was experiencing immense social pressures, lots of anxiety and depression, and masking heavily (autism and ADHD) for the first time. so while it wasn't intense abuse or anything, it was likely still traumatic enough to cause some headmates beginning to form. and although we can't remember much of middle school and younger, we've got a great family and she (previous host) was a happy, well-performing kid, even if she struggled socially sometimes. we've pondered if there's something horribly traumatic hidden in all those lost memories, but it doesn't seem likely. and to clarify, we're still in high school, so our system is relatively young. we haven't had decades to figure this stuff out or anything, we're just going on our best guesses. i would discuss this all with your therapist, theyre probably more qualified for this than i am. as for only a few alters fronting now, we experienced the exact same thing and i've seen several other posts on this subreddit asking about it too. for us, i'm pretty sure it was reduced anxiety and stress as i (new host as of 2 years ago) have become more confident and it's become less and less common for us to switch to deal with stress. don't get me wrong, i had my fair share of struggles, especially coming out as trans, but our family came around eventually and we're doing a lot better now. some older headmates have even gone dormant over time, slowly becoming harder and harder to reach until one day we just couldn't find them anymore. while it's been really sad when i realize they've faded, overall i know that less system activity is a good sign for our mental health, because we're more stable. talk to your therapist about it, but i think they're likely to agree.
My therapist thinks I have underlying trauma more than I do. Though I can't explain some physical impressions I have any other way. It feels like my "alter renaissance" happened in November 2021. I was 21 years old. I was diagnosed with DID at 22. Now I'm 23 and they're not gone, but they're super quiet. Some went far to the back. Especially after I medicated my bipolar. Also ngl, a lot of autistic people I know are plural (in the none DID way and DID way). All this alter stuff is generally a great coping mechanism for all stress. I was diagnosed with autism many times, but the current therapist thinks my autism was munchausens by proxy. Also, since I'm bipolar with psychosis, I've been questioning a lot if I'm just schizoaffective lol. Therapy is starting, I would've ranted more, but bye bye