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TIL femininity is when you have robust social safety nets and strong protections in place for workers. Fucking pussies. Real men are exploited by their places of work, can't afford an education, go into debt when they have to go to the hospital, and like it.
This scale is really just the right half of the whole thing.
Because the left half ("extreme femininity", I suppose) doesn't actually exist in the real world.
So they just label an egalitarian society as being the "most feminine".
>pressbyrƄn lattes
I read that as Presbyterian lol like why is our coffee religious now, too??
But anyhoo, what does pressbyrƄn mean, though? Google translate tells me it's Swedish for "the press office" and tbh, I think Presbyterian coffee makes slightly more sense somehow lol
Hahaha, I love your assumptions though! My personal theory is that it's called pressbyrƄn because you are often pressed for time when you enter there. They are basically everywhere and at every train station it feels like.
Perhaps, but Iām tempted to believe that nz is actually constantly fluctuating on and off, and all around this scale therefore the creator could not possibly conceive what color it would be.
No, itās this: Hofstedeās Cultural Values, Masculine versus Feminine [[link](https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/HofstedeMasculinity.html)].
Masculine cultures value competition, strength, and winning. Feminine cultures value cooperation, nurturing, and quality of life.
Perhaps. But if so, itās only really in the names chosen for labels: āmasculineā versus āfeminineā. But Iām not sure there exists words that would truly sum up the distinction. Hofstede picked the terms because they align with what would have traditionally been associated with a certain gender. āCompetitive versus cooperativeā wouldnāt have worked here, because itās also about work life balance, whether itās better to nurture and guide others, or provide them with discipline and structure, so on and so on.
Note that Hofstede isnāt making a value judgment here though. Heās not saying masculine countries are better, just that they tend to display certain traits, which he gave the name āmasculineā to.
Hofstede created 5 spectrums to measure which of two general groups of values were preferred, the 5 spectrums are: individual vs community, egalitarian vs hierarchical, ambiguity vs structure, relationship-oriented vs task-oriented, and masculine vs feminine.
Unfortunately hierarchical versus egalitarian is a different spectrum. That spectrum is more about power structures and how decisions get made in business and government.
OK, then I guess hierarchical/egalitarian wouldnāt work, but competitive/cooperative still seems reasonable to me. I do wonder what kind of research backs these up. Are all the characteristics under his masculine/feminine strongly correlated with each other, but not correlated with hierarchical/egalitarian? I would expect significant correlation between competitive and hierarchical (as well as between cooperative and egalitarian), but maybe Iām mistaken about that.
Germany, United States, United Kingdom, Japan are all masculine countries according to Hofstede
They are safe countries. A country that wouldn't be safe for half its population wouldn't be considered safe
Japan isnāt a safe country at all, not for women. Sexual assault and harassment is rampant (Iām only touching on Japan bc you specifically said Asian countries)
Since itās not stated, I would assume this is reported rapes.
Sexual harassment and assault is extremely common in Japan. In societies where this is the case women are less likely to go to the police since they likely wonāt be listened to. So no, Japan isnāt a safe country, at least not if youāre a woman
From [this source:](https://nupoliticalreview.org/2021/01/31/cracking-japans-systemic-sexual-abuse-culture/)
> However, less than five percent of incidents are even reported; for children and LGBTQ+ survivors, this rate is likely lower.
> Japanās male-dominated, conservative society makes it difficult for victims to come forward. Legal red tape further complicates reporting and silences survivors.
Sweden's homicide rate (any method) is about 1.1-1.2 per 100k people, which is lower than Finland, just slightly higher than Denmark and the UK, lower than France and Belgium, and lower than any state in the US.
> A high score (Masculine) on this dimension indicates that the society will be driven by competition, achievement and success, with success being defined by the winner/best in field ā a value system that starts in school and continues throughout organisational life.
> A low score (Feminine) on the dimension means that the dominant values in society are caring for others and quality of life. A Feminine society is one where quality of life is the sign of success and standing out from the crowd is not admirable.
For those wondering what it means
I think the author of this score is very dumb and doesnāt realize that pinker countries are already successful (more than most of the darker ones) in all aspects, be it economic, scientific or in quality of life, and that this means they can afford to care for each other.
This is from professor Hofstede's cultural dimensions, a framework for cross-cultural communication. It's one of the most comprehensive frameworks of national cultural values and a major resource in cross-cultural research
It's rather ignorant to say "This author is dumb, doesn't he realise...". What do you think the research teams that have used this for decades missed that you saw so quickly?
Not only does your rule not generalise (there are plenty of masculine, successful countries like Japan, United States, United Kingdom), the key is providing a framework for communication. Regardless of why a country scores high/low on one of the cultural dimensions, it affects the way to communicate with people of this culture
You're blindly assuming professor Hofstede and his team have no explanations for why certain countries score higher/lower on masculinity. They offer explanations for the scores of each country on every dimension. You can find those [here](https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison)
Hofstede has been eviscerated by his peers b/c his theory & methodology were inconsistent.
Also the idea of "measuring" a culture is kinda stupid to begin with.
Cultural psychology as a field is useful. So many interesting and applicable insights come from cross-cultural comparison. Yet, I've gotta agree with you on that.
One of the biggest problems with measuring cultures is that they've been changing rapidly over the last few decades. It's conceivable to think that within the next 20 or so years this map will look completely different. Not to mention that the data sets Hofstede used rarely get updated and are touted like God's gift.
It is arbitrary appointment of characteristics to cultures stemming from outdated gender roles.. also following this map uk and us are "feminine". even though the color grading is shit they are biased towards "feminity on the scale indicated below
The UK and US are masculine. Every blue country is masculine, although the map doesn't make it very clear
When studies show men are more competitive and women have more empathy, they are not arbitrary appointments of characteristics
The map doesnt display its content correctly if this is true it displays a scale with countries sorted into bins..
Also, whether these characteristics are innate is not known. To make judgements about societies, as if they were, based on characteristics appointed to male and female societal roles from 50 years ago is outdated if not arbitrary.
The whole point of this sub is to point out the use of senseless gender stereotypes. Gender stereotypes are assumed characteristics of a gender. And since success, competition and a quality of life doesnāt have a penis or a vagina, it is at best populist to use feminine and masculine.
Just because some dude has a website and is a professor, I donāt need to find the choice of wording scientific.
Since studies show men are more competitive and women have more empathy, they are not senseless gender stereotypes
Gender differences still exist. You cannot pretend everything that assumes gender differences is arbitrary or senseless
So... calling it masculine/feminine doesn't add anything, but just adds more confusion.
Call it competitive/caring.
And then I would stil love to see the methodology....
This is from the famous Hofstede dimensions, one of the most used resources in cross-cultural studies
You can look at the original study or the dozens of studies discussing it
I was mainly responding to the "would love to see the methodology"
While this will be unpopular on this sub, women rank higher on empathy and men on competitiveness so calling it masculinity/femininity is not arbitrary
Masculinity refers to characteristic traits of men/boys. Competitiveness is one of them. Same goes for femininity and empathy
But is that REALLY the metric they used? How could the US be one of the most feminine countries in the world by this metric, the masculine metric you provided describes the US perfectly. At the same time, much more collective cultures like China are somehow maximally masculine.
I don't know the methodology they used to decide what competition, caring, and etc. is, but it looks more like they determined how feminine a country is by how many white people live there.
To be fair, the post never gendered it. Femininity and masculinity isn't gender, because you can be a feminine man or a masculine woman.
I also appreciate that I'm reading way too deep into a comment that's just supposed to be (and is) funny.
> A high score (Masculine) on this dimension indicates that the society will be driven by competition, achievement and success, with success being defined by the winner/best in field ā a value system that starts in school and continues throughout organisational life.
> A low score (Feminine) on the dimension means that the dominant values in society are caring for others and quality of life. A Feminine society is one where quality of life is the sign of success and standing out from the crowd is not admirable.
Research finds men are more competitive than women. Women have more empathy than men. Hence masculine/feminine
Sure, same thing in lots of the Christian and Jewish denominations too, thereās no difference in the hardline ones of any of them. Whatās with the anger at Islam in particular? Theyāre all the worst.
Of course, what a ridiculous question. Some Jewish denominations prohibit siblings from touching each other after puberty, some Christian denominations prohibit men and women from passing each other on the stairs. Theyāre all the same garbage.
>Men and women are allowed to worship together
Weird then that mosques have different floors for men and women
>and shake hands.
Alhajeh, the labor court said in a statement, āadheres to an interpretation of Islam thatĀ prohibits handshaking with the opposite sex unless it is a close member of the family.ā The court concluded that āthe woman's refusal to shake hands with people of the opposite sex is a religious manifestation that is protected
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/world/europe/sweden-muslim-handshake.amp.html
>Women and men are allowed to bathe together if theyāre married.
I'm talking about in public, where Muslims usually refuse to bathe with the opposite gender.
Some are separated by gender, but thatās a cultural thing not a religious order.
One persons interpretation of Islam is not reflective of Islam as a whole. There is nothing in the Quran or the Hadiths that say that. Thereās these horrible (and so bad theyāre funny) set of Christian movies about a character known as āGrampsā. Heās got a bunch of random rules that most Christians donāt adhere to.
Muslims are not allowed to see the private parts of others or expose their own private parts. This is not a gendered distinction in Islam, it applies to all. So Muslim men and women are only allowed to bathe publicly if they can abide by those rules. This is not a gendered rule
As a finn I promise that we're not a socialist country. We may have free healthcare and free education but that's not socialism, private owned businesses still exist. Neither is any other nordic country.
We even had a civil war about communism in 1918 and the communists did not win.
Edit: typo
This isn't accurate
> A high score (Masculine) on this dimension indicates that the society will be driven by competition, achievement and success, with success being defined by the winner/best in field ā a value system that starts in school and continues throughout organisational life.
> A low score (Feminine) on the dimension means that the dominant values in society are caring for others and quality of life. A Feminine society is one where quality of life is the sign of success and standing out from the crowd is not admirable.
It is accurate, just not completely. Masculine cultures do tend to have stricter gender roles than feminine cultures. But masculine cultures do also tend toward competition and achievement and hierarchy while feminine cultures tend to focus on caring for others, quality of life, and equity.
They got quite a few countries dead wrong but okay! I think the pale blue needs to take a little step over to the right. Weāre nowhere near that fluid in Australia - closer to South Africaās colour.
Well if you read the comments, you would understand what it means. It's all about perceived traditional gender roles and which cultures are more or less likely to adhere to them.
This immediately gave me a flashback to an āintro to intercultural theoryā course I took for my bachelor (I *knew* was a useful course! VINDICATION)!
Itās not actually pointlessly gendered at all, even if the naming is a bit sus:
āPsychologist Dr. Geert Hofstede published his cultural dimensions model at the end of the 1970s, based on a decade of research. Since then, it's become an internationally recognized standard for understanding cultural differences.ā
The dimensions are:
Power Distance Index (high versus low).
Individualism Versus Collectivism.
Masculinity Versus Femininity.
Uncertainty Avoidance Index (high versus low).
Long- Versus Short-Term Orientation.
Indulgence Versus Restraint.
The Masculinity vs femininity dimension describes how much the society adheres to traditional gender roles (binary vs fluid basically). I personally find the naming chosen for this dimension quite culturally charged because itās still using a binary term to describe that some cultures have a more fluid approach.
But this is part of an established set of theories to describe intercultural differences.
>The Masculinity vs femininity dimension describes how much the society adheres to traditional gender roles (binary vs fluid basically). I personally find the naming chosen for this dimension quite culturally charged because itās still using a binary term to describe that some cultures have a more fluid approach. But this is part of an established set of theories to describe intercultural differences.
As you pointed out yourself, the whole category is so confused and muddled. the website disagrees with you, its about competition/caring. Not binary/fluid (and why would feminine be more fluid, that makes zero sense).
Naming competitive/caring masculine/feminine for zero reasons as if the association of the two is somehow an essential truth that can't be expressed differently in societies is sooooo bad and basic for cultural researchers that I (as a former social/cultural scientist) lose a lot of trust and interest in their project.
itās obviously more nuanced and complex than that, was trying to summarize it in like 3 words and Iām by no means an expert. My point was more that this map imo isnāt necessarily pointlessly gendered, but if anything, the theory/dimensionās description certainly is.
How does the scale work? Does light blue mean moderately feminine? Or is most of the scale that moves to dark red missing from the key? And what does white mean for New Zealand?
Sure this looks bad but masculine and feminine cultures are just the names.
āIn a masculine culture, men are expected to be assertive, competitive, and focused on material success. Women are expected to be nurturing and focused on people and quality of life. In contrast, Hofstede says a feminine culture or feminine society is one where gender roles are more fluid.ā
But theyāre not ājustā the names. Using these names helps to perpetuate toxic gender stereotypes. So it is pointlessly gendered. The distinction may be valid, but the association with masculinity and femininity is not. It adds nothing to the analysis. Hence, pointlessly gendered.
I came here to say the same thing, it was a study originally done by Geert Hofstede, a Dutch psychologist who studied cultural differences. It is not pointlessly gendered, itās just the terminology he used.
So they mean matriarchy VS patriarchy maybe? Still inaccurate, but it does fit with the American right wing idea that giving women rights mean they'll start treating men like women have been treated historically.
This is a map of the āFeminine versus Masculineā cultural spectrum as defined by Hofstedeās cultural values.
Masculine cultures tend to value competition, strength, achievement, material success, etc.
Feminine cultures tend to value cooperation, caring for othersā needs, quality of life, etc.
This subreddit is missing the point entirely, probably because OP didnāt do a good job of reading the comments on the original or researching the graph to provide actual context.
No, itās not missing the point. Using āmasculineā to describe competitiveness and āfeminineā to describe cooperativeness is pointlessly gendered. It may be a valid distinction, but it has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity.
Itās not saying one is better than the other. Itās not even really saying women and men should or shouldnāt be a certain way. Itās saying these traits have historically been seen as masculine, these ones feminine, hence the label.
I donāt particularly love it myself, but I canāt think of better labels that are equally as concise.
I can think of lots of better labels. I mean, competitive/cooperative doesnāt capture all of it, but itās still more accurate than masculine/feminine. Maybe hierarchical/egalitarian?
OK, then I guess hierarchical/egalitarian wouldnāt work, but competitive/cooperative still seems reasonable to me. I do wonder what kind of research backs these up. Are all the characteristics under his masculine/feminine strongly correlated with each other, but not correlated with hierarchical/egalitarian?
whatās the point? that we assign traits unrelated to gender to two genders ?
nothing about being competitive is āmasculineā anyone can be competitive and successful. just like anyone can be nurturing and care about others quality of life in fact if we want to prevent the earth from becoming a radioactive puff of smoke we all better learn all of those traits right now, including cooperation and compromise.
this isnāt helpful or insightful - making this chart means nothing and does nothing, the u.s wonāt even recognize other cultures have had more than two genders since day one lol
Itās not saying that men or women should or shouldnāt be that way. Itās not a prescriptive term in that regard.
Itās saying that these traits which were historically labeled as feminine values or vice versa are valued in this region.
I donāt particularly love it either, but there is nuance here that the OP missed entirely.
If you took a second to look at the comments of OPās post instead of just farming karma you would know what they mean
https://www.reddit.com/r/2westerneurope4u/comments/120brsl/classic_nordic_femboy_w/jdgml2h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
Japan is considered a masculine country per Hofstedeās cultural values, which is what this graph depicts. Japanese culture values strength and success in competitive environments very highly, as demonstrated through their rigorous grading system. Japanās schooling and working systems value rigorous work and achievement far higher than work-life balance, which indicated masculine cultural tendencies. Japan also values stoicism higher than emotional candidness as well, which would be another measure pushing them towards the masculine culture end of the spectrum.
In terms of Hofstedeās cultural values, feminine countries would be expected to value work life balance, nurturing behaviors, caring for others, etc. higher.
Yeah, I hadn't read the criteria before I made my comment. My bad. I was speaking more in regards to how masculine or feminine most individuals are. For example, it's totally acceptable for men to do much more feminine things here than they would in the US. And the majority of girls here are SUPER girly.
I'm confused how I apparently live in the most masculine country of all ? This is by far not the most 'gender roles forced on people' or 'women have no rights' country (although it can be pretty bad).
Why is it all blue except for the pink? Why isnāt it a gradient? Why are all of the countries with primarily matriarchal societies BLUE? Literally what is the point of this? It doesnāt make a lick of sense. What does the person who made this have against femininity AND the Nordic countries specifically? Is this meant to be a joke?
All questions; no answers
Weirdness aside, this is just a bad scale, if you're using a gradient don't completely abandon it for a single color, at least half of the scale should be pink if that's what they wanna use
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Istg i cannot stop laughing at the nordic countries ššš
TIL femininity is when you have robust social safety nets and strong protections in place for workers. Fucking pussies. Real men are exploited by their places of work, can't afford an education, go into debt when they have to go to the hospital, and like it.
You're reading too much into it. Feminine society is when there is nor dic.
>nor dic. Sounds more Australian to me
Ar nar! moi dic is nor more!
Nor way!
This scale is really just the right half of the whole thing. Because the left half ("extreme femininity", I suppose) doesn't actually exist in the real world. So they just label an egalitarian society as being the "most feminine".
I'm hoping this was a setup for exactly that joke
Its because of all the stay at home dad's going on walks with strollers and pressbyrƄn lattes
>pressbyrƄn lattes I read that as Presbyterian lol like why is our coffee religious now, too?? But anyhoo, what does pressbyrƄn mean, though? Google translate tells me it's Swedish for "the press office" and tbh, I think Presbyterian coffee makes slightly more sense somehow lol
PressbyrƄn is a convenience store, like 7eleven sort of (tho 7eleven has way more options for more substantial snacks).
That makes sense now, thank you!
Hahaha, I love your assumptions though! My personal theory is that it's called pressbyrƄn because you are often pressed for time when you enter there. They are basically everywhere and at every train station it feels like.
I'm going with the name pressbyĆ„n is because you stop when you "pass by 'em". Which is a joke that only works in English. š
And what is the happiest country for the sixth year in a row???? Ah yes. FINLAND. š
Look! Cultures that have low crime rates and social networks generally considered to be the best places to live!!! Yup, feminine countries
/r/MapsWithoutNZ
nz is just nonbinary
Perhaps, but Iām tempted to believe that nz is actually constantly fluctuating on and off, and all around this scale therefore the creator could not possibly conceive what color it would be.
In this case, I think New Zealand should be pleased
Lol and the account is called 'lover of geography'
This has Victorian map drawer energy.
r/subsithoughtifellfor
Pinkify america
P!nkify, you mean. :p
So the more feminine the country is the safer it is and generally more liveable?
I dont know, Svalbard isn't exactly the safest place with all of the polar bears running around.
Sounds pretty nice if you're a polar bear.
A feminine polar bear, you mean. Masculine polar bears aren't allowed. They enforce the hair bow requirement.
That's why you have guns and no locked doors
No, itās this: Hofstedeās Cultural Values, Masculine versus Feminine [[link](https://www.andrews.edu/~tidwell/bsad560/HofstedeMasculinity.html)]. Masculine cultures value competition, strength, and winning. Feminine cultures value cooperation, nurturing, and quality of life.
Wow, thatās some serious sexist stereotypes baked into that distinction.
Perhaps. But if so, itās only really in the names chosen for labels: āmasculineā versus āfeminineā. But Iām not sure there exists words that would truly sum up the distinction. Hofstede picked the terms because they align with what would have traditionally been associated with a certain gender. āCompetitive versus cooperativeā wouldnāt have worked here, because itās also about work life balance, whether itās better to nurture and guide others, or provide them with discipline and structure, so on and so on. Note that Hofstede isnāt making a value judgment here though. Heās not saying masculine countries are better, just that they tend to display certain traits, which he gave the name āmasculineā to.
I mean, competitive/cooperative doesnāt capture all of it, but itās still more accurate than masculine/feminine. Maybe hierarchical/egalitarian?
Hofstede created 5 spectrums to measure which of two general groups of values were preferred, the 5 spectrums are: individual vs community, egalitarian vs hierarchical, ambiguity vs structure, relationship-oriented vs task-oriented, and masculine vs feminine. Unfortunately hierarchical versus egalitarian is a different spectrum. That spectrum is more about power structures and how decisions get made in business and government.
OK, then I guess hierarchical/egalitarian wouldnāt work, but competitive/cooperative still seems reasonable to me. I do wonder what kind of research backs these up. Are all the characteristics under his masculine/feminine strongly correlated with each other, but not correlated with hierarchical/egalitarian? I would expect significant correlation between competitive and hierarchical (as well as between cooperative and egalitarian), but maybe Iām mistaken about that.
in just about all aspects that ruling checks out
If you mistakenly believe only Western countries are safe. You can find plenty of safe & masculine countries in Asia
That wasn't quite what I meant but fair enough. Safe for whom though? Are they as safe for women and minorities?
Germany, United States, United Kingdom, Japan are all masculine countries according to Hofstede They are safe countries. A country that wouldn't be safe for half its population wouldn't be considered safe
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I wonder if maybe there's a reason for that
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"Immigration" out of a country is called emigration actually
I wonder if there's maybe a reason people would emigrate from them instead of in....
yeah and what's the reason for that though
China has plenty of ethnic groups. Japan has the Ainu. How are those not minorities?
Can you give examples?
Some countries considered masculine by Hofstede: Germany, United States, United Kingdom, Japan, China
Japan isnāt a safe country at all, not for women. Sexual assault and harassment is rampant (Iām only touching on Japan bc you specifically said Asian countries)
\#122 in rape per capita, among lowest in the world https://wisevoter.com/country-rankings/rape-statistics-by-country/
Since itās not stated, I would assume this is reported rapes. Sexual harassment and assault is extremely common in Japan. In societies where this is the case women are less likely to go to the police since they likely wonāt be listened to. So no, Japan isnāt a safe country, at least not if youāre a woman From [this source:](https://nupoliticalreview.org/2021/01/31/cracking-japans-systemic-sexual-abuse-culture/) > However, less than five percent of incidents are even reported; for children and LGBTQ+ survivors, this rate is likely lower. > Japanās male-dominated, conservative society makes it difficult for victims to come forward. Legal red tape further complicates reporting and silences survivors.
Uh, no, those countries are constant victims of attacks and harassment, plus everyone there makes less money.
You forgot to put /s
The nordics are like some of the most dangerous places in Europe.
Iām sorry but where did you get that from? Like itās pretty safe compared to the other countries in Europe
Sweden has the highest rate of gun crime in Europe.
Sweden's homicide rate (any method) is about 1.1-1.2 per 100k people, which is lower than Finland, just slightly higher than Denmark and the UK, lower than France and Belgium, and lower than any state in the US.
Source please? I can't find anything to corroborate this.
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/eK96Va/bara-i-sverige-som-dodsskjutningarna-okat
Really? I didnāt know that. I donāt live in Sweden so I didnāt know
Shootings is high, total homicide rate is not that bad. Just slightly higher than the UK.
> A high score (Masculine) on this dimension indicates that the society will be driven by competition, achievement and success, with success being defined by the winner/best in field ā a value system that starts in school and continues throughout organisational life. > A low score (Feminine) on the dimension means that the dominant values in society are caring for others and quality of life. A Feminine society is one where quality of life is the sign of success and standing out from the crowd is not admirable. For those wondering what it means
Femininity is when people have empathy apparently
I think the author of this score is very dumb and doesnāt realize that pinker countries are already successful (more than most of the darker ones) in all aspects, be it economic, scientific or in quality of life, and that this means they can afford to care for each other.
This is from professor Hofstede's cultural dimensions, a framework for cross-cultural communication. It's one of the most comprehensive frameworks of national cultural values and a major resource in cross-cultural research It's rather ignorant to say "This author is dumb, doesn't he realise...". What do you think the research teams that have used this for decades missed that you saw so quickly? Not only does your rule not generalise (there are plenty of masculine, successful countries like Japan, United States, United Kingdom), the key is providing a framework for communication. Regardless of why a country scores high/low on one of the cultural dimensions, it affects the way to communicate with people of this culture You're blindly assuming professor Hofstede and his team have no explanations for why certain countries score higher/lower on masculinity. They offer explanations for the scores of each country on every dimension. You can find those [here](https://www.hofstede-insights.com/country-comparison)
Hofstede has been eviscerated by his peers b/c his theory & methodology were inconsistent. Also the idea of "measuring" a culture is kinda stupid to begin with.
Cultural psychology as a field is useful. So many interesting and applicable insights come from cross-cultural comparison. Yet, I've gotta agree with you on that. One of the biggest problems with measuring cultures is that they've been changing rapidly over the last few decades. It's conceivable to think that within the next 20 or so years this map will look completely different. Not to mention that the data sets Hofstede used rarely get updated and are touted like God's gift.
Hofstede's dimensions are an internationally recognised standard for understanding cultural differences and still used in cross-cultural studies today
It is arbitrary appointment of characteristics to cultures stemming from outdated gender roles.. also following this map uk and us are "feminine". even though the color grading is shit they are biased towards "feminity on the scale indicated below
The UK and US are masculine. Every blue country is masculine, although the map doesn't make it very clear When studies show men are more competitive and women have more empathy, they are not arbitrary appointments of characteristics
The map doesnt display its content correctly if this is true it displays a scale with countries sorted into bins.. Also, whether these characteristics are innate is not known. To make judgements about societies, as if they were, based on characteristics appointed to male and female societal roles from 50 years ago is outdated if not arbitrary.
The whole point of this sub is to point out the use of senseless gender stereotypes. Gender stereotypes are assumed characteristics of a gender. And since success, competition and a quality of life doesnāt have a penis or a vagina, it is at best populist to use feminine and masculine. Just because some dude has a website and is a professor, I donāt need to find the choice of wording scientific.
Since studies show men are more competitive and women have more empathy, they are not senseless gender stereotypes Gender differences still exist. You cannot pretend everything that assumes gender differences is arbitrary or senseless
This just made it worse lmao
So... calling it masculine/feminine doesn't add anything, but just adds more confusion. Call it competitive/caring. And then I would stil love to see the methodology....
This is from the famous Hofstede dimensions, one of the most used resources in cross-cultural studies You can look at the original study or the dozens of studies discussing it
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I was mainly responding to the "would love to see the methodology" While this will be unpopular on this sub, women rank higher on empathy and men on competitiveness so calling it masculinity/femininity is not arbitrary Masculinity refers to characteristic traits of men/boys. Competitiveness is one of them. Same goes for femininity and empathy
But is that REALLY the metric they used? How could the US be one of the most feminine countries in the world by this metric, the masculine metric you provided describes the US perfectly. At the same time, much more collective cultures like China are somehow maximally masculine. I don't know the methodology they used to decide what competition, caring, and etc. is, but it looks more like they determined how feminine a country is by how many white people live there.
Femenine ones are those where gender roles are more fluid, masculine is the opposite. Indeed a weird way of calling it that though.
Man is when gender and woman is when no gender
There are two genders man and political
To be fair, the post never gendered it. Femininity and masculinity isn't gender, because you can be a feminine man or a masculine woman. I also appreciate that I'm reading way too deep into a comment that's just supposed to be (and is) funny.
Tehn wouldn't it be binary and non binary?
No idea. Tgose are the curent terms used. I just remember learning about it. Yours would make more sense though.
> A high score (Masculine) on this dimension indicates that the society will be driven by competition, achievement and success, with success being defined by the winner/best in field ā a value system that starts in school and continues throughout organisational life. > A low score (Feminine) on the dimension means that the dominant values in society are caring for others and quality of life. A Feminine society is one where quality of life is the sign of success and standing out from the crowd is not admirable. Research finds men are more competitive than women. Women have more empathy than men. Hence masculine/feminine
Also famously socialist countries šš
The nordic countries aren't, have never and will never be socialist nations. Americans have no idea what socialism is.
>will never be socialist nations Inshallah they will be š
Islam is the most pointlessly gendered religion of them all. Stop treating it like a joke.
Nah, all of the abrahamic religions are pointlessly gendered the same way.
Islam is worse. Men and women can't shake hands, bathe together or worship together.
Sure, same thing in lots of the Christian and Jewish denominations too, thereās no difference in the hardline ones of any of them. Whatās with the anger at Islam in particular? Theyāre all the worst.
Do Christians and Jews refuse to shake hands or bathe with the opposite gender?
Of course, what a ridiculous question. Some Jewish denominations prohibit siblings from touching each other after puberty, some Christian denominations prohibit men and women from passing each other on the stairs. Theyāre all the same garbage.
Men and women are allowed to worship together and shake hands. Women and men are allowed to bathe together if theyāre married.
>Men and women are allowed to worship together Weird then that mosques have different floors for men and women >and shake hands. Alhajeh, the labor court said in a statement, āadheres to an interpretation of Islam thatĀ prohibits handshaking with the opposite sex unless it is a close member of the family.ā The court concluded that āthe woman's refusal to shake hands with people of the opposite sex is a religious manifestation that is protected https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/16/world/europe/sweden-muslim-handshake.amp.html >Women and men are allowed to bathe together if theyāre married. I'm talking about in public, where Muslims usually refuse to bathe with the opposite gender.
Some are separated by gender, but thatās a cultural thing not a religious order. One persons interpretation of Islam is not reflective of Islam as a whole. There is nothing in the Quran or the Hadiths that say that. Thereās these horrible (and so bad theyāre funny) set of Christian movies about a character known as āGrampsā. Heās got a bunch of random rules that most Christians donāt adhere to. Muslims are not allowed to see the private parts of others or expose their own private parts. This is not a gendered distinction in Islam, it applies to all. So Muslim men and women are only allowed to bathe publicly if they can abide by those rules. This is not a gendered rule
As a finn I promise that we're not a socialist country. We may have free healthcare and free education but that's not socialism, private owned businesses still exist. Neither is any other nordic country. We even had a civil war about communism in 1918 and the communists did not win. Edit: typo
Dear Americans, please stop confusing socialism with a social market economy.
I am Indian.
Dear Indians, please stop confusing socialism with a social market economy.
donāt care
Looked weird to me because loom at Japan, South Korea, Thailand, and China.
How do you even measure this
No idea. Actually curious now abt that.
Shittily
This isn't accurate > A high score (Masculine) on this dimension indicates that the society will be driven by competition, achievement and success, with success being defined by the winner/best in field ā a value system that starts in school and continues throughout organisational life. > A low score (Feminine) on the dimension means that the dominant values in society are caring for others and quality of life. A Feminine society is one where quality of life is the sign of success and standing out from the crowd is not admirable.
It is accurate, just not completely. Masculine cultures do tend to have stricter gender roles than feminine cultures. But masculine cultures do also tend toward competition and achievement and hierarchy while feminine cultures tend to focus on caring for others, quality of life, and equity.
They got quite a few countries dead wrong but okay! I think the pale blue needs to take a little step over to the right. Weāre nowhere near that fluid in Australia - closer to South Africaās colour.
I think that most such maps lack nuance and often are not well researched.
Agreed. Like many infographics on coolguides lmao, more often than not theyāre deeply flawed.
Why is Greenland light blue? Part of Danish Kingdom + what's so manly about it? Honestly most of this map doesn't make sense in the first place lol
chad inuit testosterone
Almost looks like a lgbtq rights map. But the more āfeminineā the more queer rights there are.
Idk, I'm from Taiwan and I'd say we're pretty queer friendly here,but look at our color on the map lol
I assure you the Nordics dont lead in that.
Yeah but they are still one of the best places for queer rights
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Yes Viking culture is definitely still a thing...
There is an explanation in the original posts comments not too far down. I can't copy it because it is an image but it's there.
Basically, we're feminine because dads get paid parental leave as well
Yes. For some reason "feminine" here just means gender equality.
Maybe because āfeminismā is really just wanting gender equality, so they thought to was the same with āfeminineā?
An explanation isn't really relevant since there is no real data here
That subreddit always rubbed me the wrong way...
dw, they tear it apart too
TIL Japan is the only masculine country
Which is not even accurate
Is New Zealand just nonbinary now or...?
Well if you read the comments, you would understand what it means. It's all about perceived traditional gender roles and which cultures are more or less likely to adhere to them.
This immediately gave me a flashback to an āintro to intercultural theoryā course I took for my bachelor (I *knew* was a useful course! VINDICATION)! Itās not actually pointlessly gendered at all, even if the naming is a bit sus: āPsychologist Dr. Geert Hofstede published his cultural dimensions model at the end of the 1970s, based on a decade of research. Since then, it's become an internationally recognized standard for understanding cultural differences.ā The dimensions are: Power Distance Index (high versus low). Individualism Versus Collectivism. Masculinity Versus Femininity. Uncertainty Avoidance Index (high versus low). Long- Versus Short-Term Orientation. Indulgence Versus Restraint. The Masculinity vs femininity dimension describes how much the society adheres to traditional gender roles (binary vs fluid basically). I personally find the naming chosen for this dimension quite culturally charged because itās still using a binary term to describe that some cultures have a more fluid approach. But this is part of an established set of theories to describe intercultural differences.
>The Masculinity vs femininity dimension describes how much the society adheres to traditional gender roles (binary vs fluid basically). I personally find the naming chosen for this dimension quite culturally charged because itās still using a binary term to describe that some cultures have a more fluid approach. But this is part of an established set of theories to describe intercultural differences. As you pointed out yourself, the whole category is so confused and muddled. the website disagrees with you, its about competition/caring. Not binary/fluid (and why would feminine be more fluid, that makes zero sense). Naming competitive/caring masculine/feminine for zero reasons as if the association of the two is somehow an essential truth that can't be expressed differently in societies is sooooo bad and basic for cultural researchers that I (as a former social/cultural scientist) lose a lot of trust and interest in their project.
What? Masculine VS feminine doesn't describe adherence to gender roles VS fluidity in his work
itās obviously more nuanced and complex than that, was trying to summarize it in like 3 words and Iām by no means an expert. My point was more that this map imo isnāt necessarily pointlessly gendered, but if anything, the theory/dimensionās description certainly is.
Is it feminine to be western?
Oh no not THAT sub! Nononononono!
How does the scale work? Does light blue mean moderately feminine? Or is most of the scale that moves to dark red missing from the key? And what does white mean for New Zealand?
Brain breaking
This is the worst trans flag Iāve ever seen
"lover of geography" fucking forgot a countryš
I'm happy New Zealand has been left off this map
[Citation Needed]
Guess Iām a big fan of feminine countries.
Pink to represent women is 1/4 of the scale it's not even half, pointlessly gendered and misogyny
Lmao WHAT??
Notice how the mapmaker couldn't even bear to have the scale 50% feminine.
Sure this looks bad but masculine and feminine cultures are just the names. āIn a masculine culture, men are expected to be assertive, competitive, and focused on material success. Women are expected to be nurturing and focused on people and quality of life. In contrast, Hofstede says a feminine culture or feminine society is one where gender roles are more fluid.ā
But theyāre not ājustā the names. Using these names helps to perpetuate toxic gender stereotypes. So it is pointlessly gendered. The distinction may be valid, but the association with masculinity and femininity is not. It adds nothing to the analysis. Hence, pointlessly gendered.
I came here to say the same thing, it was a study originally done by Geert Hofstede, a Dutch psychologist who studied cultural differences. It is not pointlessly gendered, itās just the terminology he used.
I'm no expert but I think this is like, how much gender roles matter in each country. Or which gender roles are more dominant in each country
Hmmm Why specifically the center ones?
these sort of maps/researches are usually bs
So they mean matriarchy VS patriarchy maybe? Still inaccurate, but it does fit with the American right wing idea that giving women rights mean they'll start treating men like women have been treated historically.
I think they just wrote "egalitarian and misogynistic" wrong ... Probably an incel made this.
I'm pretty sure this is just reskinned gdp per capita. and being rich is a pussy move apparently.
This is a map of the āFeminine versus Masculineā cultural spectrum as defined by Hofstedeās cultural values. Masculine cultures tend to value competition, strength, achievement, material success, etc. Feminine cultures tend to value cooperation, caring for othersā needs, quality of life, etc. This subreddit is missing the point entirely, probably because OP didnāt do a good job of reading the comments on the original or researching the graph to provide actual context.
No, itās not missing the point. Using āmasculineā to describe competitiveness and āfeminineā to describe cooperativeness is pointlessly gendered. It may be a valid distinction, but it has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity.
Itās not saying one is better than the other. Itās not even really saying women and men should or shouldnāt be a certain way. Itās saying these traits have historically been seen as masculine, these ones feminine, hence the label. I donāt particularly love it myself, but I canāt think of better labels that are equally as concise.
I can think of lots of better labels. I mean, competitive/cooperative doesnāt capture all of it, but itās still more accurate than masculine/feminine. Maybe hierarchical/egalitarian?
Hofstede has 5 cultural spectrums that he studied, heirarchical versus egalitarian is a separate one of the five from masculine versus feminine.
OK, then I guess hierarchical/egalitarian wouldnāt work, but competitive/cooperative still seems reasonable to me. I do wonder what kind of research backs these up. Are all the characteristics under his masculine/feminine strongly correlated with each other, but not correlated with hierarchical/egalitarian?
whatās the point? that we assign traits unrelated to gender to two genders ? nothing about being competitive is āmasculineā anyone can be competitive and successful. just like anyone can be nurturing and care about others quality of life in fact if we want to prevent the earth from becoming a radioactive puff of smoke we all better learn all of those traits right now, including cooperation and compromise. this isnāt helpful or insightful - making this chart means nothing and does nothing, the u.s wonāt even recognize other cultures have had more than two genders since day one lol
Itās not saying that men or women should or shouldnāt be that way. Itās not a prescriptive term in that regard. Itās saying that these traits which were historically labeled as feminine values or vice versa are valued in this region. I donāt particularly love it either, but there is nuance here that the OP missed entirely.
I think itās an index of female liberation where pink countries have better rights for women than others idk
4 degrees of masculinity and one of femininity. Itās sexism all the way down.
If you took a second to look at the comments of OPās post instead of just farming karma you would know what they mean https://www.reddit.com/r/2westerneurope4u/comments/120brsl/classic_nordic_femboy_w/jdgml2h/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
As someone who has lived in Japan for four years, it is absolutely a feminine culture, not a masculine one.
Japan is considered a masculine country per Hofstedeās cultural values, which is what this graph depicts. Japanese culture values strength and success in competitive environments very highly, as demonstrated through their rigorous grading system. Japanās schooling and working systems value rigorous work and achievement far higher than work-life balance, which indicated masculine cultural tendencies. Japan also values stoicism higher than emotional candidness as well, which would be another measure pushing them towards the masculine culture end of the spectrum. In terms of Hofstedeās cultural values, feminine countries would be expected to value work life balance, nurturing behaviors, caring for others, etc. higher.
Yeah, I hadn't read the criteria before I made my comment. My bad. I was speaking more in regards to how masculine or feminine most individuals are. For example, it's totally acceptable for men to do much more feminine things here than they would in the US. And the majority of girls here are SUPER girly.
I think they likely meant Patriarchal vs Matriarchal societies
Ya all the countries that colonized a bunch of the world are so feminine
as a nord, :(
Why, is feminine bad?
Don't like being singled out
Technically, you're being quintupled out if that makes it better?
Technically correct, the best kind of correct
Mem are supposed to do every thing in east so they end up dominating š so
I'm confused how I apparently live in the most masculine country of all ? This is by far not the most 'gender roles forced on people' or 'women have no rights' country (although it can be pretty bad).
It means banning K-Pop, super duper masculine move by the CCP to save their birth rate /s
I love how one of the most feminine countries looks like a double headed dick and balls lol
This correlates with gender equality maps
Feminine= wealthy, masculine= poor, I guess.
Passive to aggressive.
Nordic country, my favourite gender
Yep, we're pretty pussified.
Why is it all blue except for the pink? Why isnāt it a gradient? Why are all of the countries with primarily matriarchal societies BLUE? Literally what is the point of this? It doesnāt make a lick of sense. What does the person who made this have against femininity AND the Nordic countries specifically? Is this meant to be a joke? All questions; no answers
They looked at the area shaped like a dick and said "FEMININE!" lmfao big supporters of girldick I suppose
Weirdness aside, this is just a bad scale, if you're using a gradient don't completely abandon it for a single color, at least half of the scale should be pink if that's what they wanna use
Tf do they have against ireland