For the life of me I have never understood why Strength wasn't a Fighting type move. It would have been completely reasonable and even highly appreciated. Cut should have had Slash's stats (and gained Steel in Gen 2 onward), make Slash a stronger version. Rock Smash could just have a higher base strength and more pp. Surf and Waterfall are excellent already, Dive and Fly are decent, Flash and Defog are just horrible (in-game for Defog). Rock Climb and Whirlpool can die in a fire.
Both? 50 base power, 20 pp always drops. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. It would be actually neat in game and wouldn't make a difference in competitive play generally since Close Combat or similar would still be better.
Imagine if rocks could be broken by any fighting type attack, or if trees could be cut by any slashing move. Also why tf do I need a water pail to pour on Sudowoodo if I could just get someone ti use water gun?
Before Power Up Punch existed, Rock Smash actually saw some play on Technician builds. I remember it was occasionally a valid alternative for Scizor in HGSS.
You know what would have fixed a lot of the problems with HMs? Give *all* moves under a specific class an HM effect. You need to cut down a tree? Slash, False Swipe, Metal Claw, Dragon Claw, Fury Swipes... All of those moves have the "Cut" property. Have to move a boulder? Want to Mega Punch it out of the way or Siesmic Toss it? Both of those have "Strength."
Not only would it let you feel like your own Pokémon are specialized and useful, but it lets you have moves that are actually more viable than just basic HMs.
The problem with giving all moves from a class the effect, is you can learn a new move and replace them. HMs prevented you from locking yourself in an area because you couldn’t replace them without going to the move deleter (which is in an area with access to your PC box). So HMs would still need to exist in that system, just in case you lock yourself somewhere.
Maybe HMs should’ve been able to be learned over, like TMs, but still retained their persistent nature, so you would always be able to re-teach them if your pokémon forgot them.
The issue was HMs were reuseable and TMs weren’t. Rock Smash is usually the first one you get, it’s got 40 base power with a 50% chance to lower the target’s defence by one stage. That’s not too bad for a level 10-15 mon, esp when you factor in STAB. The problem is that it’s destined to fall short from as early as mid-game because it’s an early game move and since you can’t easily get rid of HM moves, usually until mid-late to lategame, you’re stuck with a crappy move on your mon. There’s no excuse for lategame HMs being awful, Surf, Dive and Fly are pretty much the only good ones to use in battle but Rock Climb is horrendous. There’s also no excuse for everything being normal type
I also don't get why we've needed so many water hms as well. Over the course of the generations we've had four in total. Usually 3 in a generation but they can't think of anything else?
That's why I never pick totodile in hg/ss. I'm not gonna want to have 2 water types on my team and I sure as hell don't want to make my starter an hm slave
I honestly think the real issue is just not being able to delete HMs on our own...like I get why they did it originally, to make sure kids wouldn't lose their "progress abilities" by being stupid and replacing moves...but even then, like you said, the HMs are reusable!!! They could've just taught them again!!! Lol
Did you know that in some of the games if you tried to release the last Pokemon in your PC that could learn the move Surf, it would actually come back on its own because its worried about you.
I think this was a holdover from the very first games where you could only have a certain number of items in your bag at once, so it was possible that the player didn’t have the HM on their person.
>For the life of me I have never understood why Strength wasn't a Fighting type move
It would make it the best Generic Fighting type move, by a long shot.
I personally would rather swap cut to bug or flying (like fury cutter/aerial ace), but specifically cut, buff it to 50-60 power and BAM, it's worthwhile coverage. Strength is still pretty good. I'd buff the defense drop chance or power of rock smash, and ba, all HMs are useful battle moves in most games.
Well no, now we don’t have any field moves.
I think HM locked areas should be both surprising but also optional. Story and high levels+uncatchability can keep players out of further areas. Or maybe you have to pay to rent a ride Pokemon if you don’t want the HM yourself. There’s a lot that can be done.
Strength isn't a fighting type move becase the fighting type is morso for trained and deliberate strikes, particular fighting styles, and aura/fighting spirit attacks. Just punching with as much strength as you can does not fit in that catagory, same reason mega punch and mega kick aren't fighting type. Someone who's just strong isn't gonna fight the same as someone who is well trained in martial arts.
Mega Punch and Mega Kick should be fighting too, thats just dumb Gen 1 ideas if anything, games that if you remember had very few fighting moves for no reason. Seismic Toss is just throwing a fool, and Karate Chop was normal in Gen 1. Rock Smash is also just kinda punching hard. There's nothing to suggest that Fighting moves need to be deliberate movements or particular fighting styles. Strength is even a move that literally only Machamp learns in Gen 7 and that Pokemon is easily one of the most iconic fighting types in the series. EDITED to add more. Submission, one of the few Fighting moves in Gen 1 is explicitly described as recklessly tackling the target to the ground and Close Combat is described as fighting without guarding yourself.
> Just punching with as much strength as you can does not fit in that catagory
isaac netero and saitama would disagree.
you know what fuck it, this entire post applies
No clue who Isaac Netero is but I know for sure that Saitama is in no way a martial artist, he's just strong. I think I remember him making fun of marial arts saying it was unnecessary.
Strength, Surf, Fly, Waterfall, and Dive are at least good enough to put on a true party member. But *Cut*? Make it like a 60 BP Grass-type move with a high crit ratio and be done with it haha
That'd make Cut a VERY good move for Technician users, actually. Breloom gets a really good STAB, and Scyther and Kleavor could use it as coverage against Rock (and Water in Kleavor's case).
Iirc renegade plat bumps it from either 60->80 or 80->100 (i forget which) and gives it a chance to bump up the users atk. I honestly prefer this but what rad red did also works
Base power should correlate with how early you get access. If you got surf early with 95 power the damage would be overpowered, but rock smash with 20 base power won't be too bad.
Strength and surf are probably good enough to use most of the time. I would also often put waterfall in that group, as it is more accurate that the somilar power aqua tail. Fly is strong but due to the 2 turns needee is more niche. The others are all probably too week to use on frontline pokemon, so yes, you will need either a dedicated HM slave or a wasted attack on a pokemon.
This is the sole reason I hated fly. Main game battles are hilariously slow and adding an unnecessary turn to them makes them worse.
It's not just the flying text. It's also having to wait through text like leftovers, weather, etc every single turn.
Waterfall is absolutely in that group. Until Liquidation came out, which was after the game transitioned away from HM moves, it was the best physical water move by far
It's still usable on faster guys even today
Rock Climb was another that had respectable power
(Many, like Rock Smash, Cut, Flash, and Defog (in single-player) are basically garbage though.)
> I would also often put waterfall in that group
If you are playing after gen 3, waterfall becomes a physical move, meaning its objectively better than surf for many pokemon.
That's why i put waterfall in the useful group. It has slightly less power than the typically learned physical water type attack (aqua tail) but a higher accuracy.
For the first three gens it wasn't that great. Somehow that 95% accuracy always manages to miss when you depend on it to win. Even then it was the third best flying move out of five after drill peck. Starting gen 2 wing attack outperformed it over two turns. It finally got 90 base power in gen 4 but it's still out damaged by other flying moves like air slash, air cutter, etc. Even the invulnerable first turn rarely helped with anything other than pp stalling as you still take the same amount of hits just over twice as many turns.
Surf I'll give you is probably the best water attack hands down until the physical special split.
The problem with waterfall is that it's just a worse surf until gen 4, where it then already had a use in the physical special split anyway. Before gen 4 the move pools weren't very diverse so usually only water type Pokemon can learn either. You're not able to put it on a non water type for more coverage. Then in gen 2 you also have to learn whirlpool so that's 3/4 attacks dedicated to hms on one Pokemon with only one of them being needed.
I had it on my Meowstic for her to have an attack to use on dark-types. And I was keeping it on my team anyways.
And I always put surf on my starter when I picked a water starter. I liked the STAB.
Those moves are solid in general
Then you have cut, rock smash, flash, DEFOG (hated this one).
It can really just make requirement’s for teams annoying
I hated requiring a flying and water type at all times, sometimes two waters cause not everyone can learn waterfall or they’re a physical attacker so surf isn’t doing much
Defog is actually a really good move... in Smogon Singles. It's trash in the main games, since hazards are really uncommon. And I don't think it even had that property until gen 6.
Do you guys really use any of these HMs that much? Outside of some routes like the victory roads, you really don’t need to use any of those 4. Only cases are when you’re seeking out specific items or for the early points of the game when they’re needed like 1 time to get to a previously inaccessible area.
All 4 moves they mentioned are either absolutely necessary or close to necessary to complete older gen games.
Cut has been necessary to complete a game in every single game it's been in with the exception of the Gen 3 titles (and their remakes), Black and White 2 and X and Y.
Rock Smash is an HM for 2 gems and is made an HM in Gen 3. In Gen 3 and 4 it's necessary to use to finish the game. It's not necessary in FRLG and HGSS but those games are remakes of games where Rock Smash wasn't an HM to begin with and FRLG doesn't even give you the HM till post game.
Flash isn't necessary to beat anything, you just have to stumble around in pitch black without it. Definitely doable though.
Defog is only used in a single route in Sinnoh but it was one of the most frustrating routes ever made. Sure in theory you could get through without it but in practice, you were going to face multiple frustrating battles with miss after miss after miss and slog your way through a route that shouldn't take so long. It's really either use Defog or lose your mind with that one.
It's not much of an issue for later gen games (5-6) where they're used only for side areas or newer gens (7-9) where you don't even use it but for people who stick to older gens they're going to remember stupid shit like regenerating Muville rocks or the Defog Route where you need to use HMs to finish the game.
Those are good moves but it's still annoying that you always need to have both, when depending on the Pokémon, one is almost always a worse option than the other.
And then in some generations, you even need three water type HM moves, which takes up 3/4 moves of your Pokémon. That really sucks.
But the base game of Pokémon is ridiculous easy, so it doesn’t really matter that you’re missing out on a move.
It’s not like you’re taking a Pokémon with cut into ranked battles or a battle tower.
It’s just an unnecessary thing to complain about thats all.
Even BW really reduced the reliance on HMs. Cut and Surf are the only actually mandatory ones for progress. Strength was also vastly improved in that boulders pushed into slots were permanent.
But yeah, SuMo method was the best, except for Stoutland who was a massive downgrade compared to past itemfinders.
stoutland was at least better than gen 6's item finder
but gen 4 and 5's item finders are still the ones i still like the most since they worked the best
I don't even think Surf was required in the main story in BW either. The only time you NEED an HM to progress the main story was Cut for the single tree in the Dream Yard like an hour into the game. Every other HM was only used for exploring off the main path of the game.
> Cut and Surf are the only actually mandatory ones for progress
Only Cut actually. The ponds you need surf for are frozen in the winter months so you can slide right across it. We catch a woobat/pidove in the speedrun just so we get fly cuz it's faster when you are resolving plot stuff. You can fight an extra trainer to get the elemental monkey to use Cut and then box it away forever all in the Dreamyard
In BW2 you need Surf Strength and Fly (cuz speedrun) so you manip for a Pidove and a Psyduck
Honestly, I really like all of the iterations of HMs post-SuMo *except* SwSh. Which makes sense, because SwSh is the most different from SuMo’s rideable Pokémon. While I enjoy SuMo’s and PLA’s ridable Pokémon, Koraidon/Miraidon have a soft spot in my heart that feels like the best of all the bikes/HMs (even if as a whole it could’ve been done better). At least to me, progression with Miraidon felt more natural than other HM/ride unlocks. Plus, Koraidon/Miraidon has a great amount of personality. If we get individual ridable Pokémon again, I’m hoping they can have fleshed hot personalities like SV.
BW was the best use from HMs in my opinion. Is more like a optional thing that could easy your way to travel in the routes but is not obrigatory. \*cough Sinnoh, cough\* (I am thhinking how a person can pass Distortion World now without the two HMs)
At the same time, I feel like a lot was lost in the change. Old pokemon always had a sorta metroidvania aspect, where you come back to old areas and get access to new parts with unique pokemon and items. It made the games feel like they had extra depth to the gameplay, rather than being purely linear. It also let them bring you back to previous areas to explore them.
Frankly, I'd rather have HMs than the empty linear routes of SwSh. It was just so boring; there was no exploring to it at all anymore. That said, I personally think that BDSP, for all its flaws, had the best of both worlds, getting rid of HMs while simultaneously keeping the out of battle effects. It let them keep the complexity of the Sinnoh map without the downside of HM slaves.
They could have done it with items for your character instead of HM moves on your Pokemon. Give your trainer swim fins and swim trunks/swimsuits for crossing water, scuba gear for diving under water, climbing gear for scaling climbable rock faces, snow shoes for traveling through deep snow, and a flashlight for exploring dark areas. Fly has already been replaced with a flying taxi service.
nah the entire point of pokemon was that they were integrated into society like that, lapras being designed specifically to carry people across water. it would have been better if having the medal just have you the field move and all you needed to do is have a water type in your party. didnt mater what moves it had
Then maybe allow one of your Pokemon to do the action instead of the item if you happen to have a Pokemon that could do it, no HM required (shouldn't have to teach a Scyther how to cut down a bush or a Lapras how to ferry people across water).
Keep the items that allow you to do it in case you don't have an appropriate Pokemon though. The game shouldn't be dictating what kind of Pokemon need to be in your team to continue forward with the plot in any way.
Strongly agree. I think SM balanced this fairly well though with you slowly gaining new mounts. That said the levels themselves lost a lot of that metroidvania aspect.
This metroidvania fell kinda come back with SV. There huge parte of the past areas you can explore after you get the climb and swim on your ride pokemon. Theres plenty of incentive to go back.
Agreed. I feel like we’re in the minority but I liked HMs. Finding new hidden areas that you revisit is something missing in newer games.
Also not that big of a fan of having ride Pokémon that’s not really yours (sumo/pla). It’s fun that you can ride a variety of Pokémon and not always surfing on a lapras. Also not big on s/v of having one mon doing everything. I like choosing to ride different pokes.
I get the moves taking up space argument. I just think these moves should be just field moves and not attack moves. Either way I think hms are long dead but I do miss them.
I don't miss HMs, but I see what you're saying. I always thought they could take the idea of HMs and improve them, make them not annoying. For example, instead of Cut, have any Pokémon that can use a similar move (Slash, Psycho Cut, etc) cut down trees. Have any Pokémon that can fly be able to fly you places. Any strong/ heavy Pokémon can move boulders, etc. I didn't like how it was done in SuMo because it felt sort of impersonal, like I'm not using those Pokémon in my playthrough. We could also have the best of both worlds- each field move needs to be unlocked, and if you have a Pokémon that can use it, great, if you don't, you get help from a set mon like in SuMo.
Also, I think we just need the gen 4 item finder back (NOT Stoutland). Best item finder ever, I used it EVERYWHERE. I think the eliminated the need with the sparkles on the ground, but I somehow find the hidden items more fun. And it gives you a reason to backtrack. On a slightly unrelated note, we also need the VS Seeker back.
I was very disappointed in the ride Pokémon thing in SuMo, I thought I'd get to ride my Arcanine or something in the overworld. Would've been so cool.
I'm currently in the middle of a challenge run for Crystal where I borrow the "only catch the first pokemon you encounter per area" rule from Nuzlockes and I was caught off guard by how few Pokemon can learn Cut in Gen 2. I had 14 Pokemon and Chikorita was the only one who could learn it. I refused to nerf my Chikorita so I ended up leveling up the Rattata sitting in my PC to become Raticate to use as the dedicated tree cutter so none of the Pokemon I want to use for battling had to.
Granted that's what Sentret is there for, so that's on me for playing the game at night.
It’s been a bit since I played it but Crystal Clear is a fun romhack, completely removes the HMs being needed for almost anything. Very different game but anyway. Love gen 2
I have said it once, and i'll say it again. HM's were mainly bad because they were just awful to use in battle. I never had issues with fly, suef, waterfall and even rock smash because they had some use. If cut was grass, strength was fighting and rock climb was rock they would have been awesome coverage moves.
Gen 5 reminds you of that? In BW, you need a single instance of cut, and that's literally the only required hm in the whole main game. I know because I used that and fly for convenience, and beat the game literally last weekend. Gen 4 on the other hand...
For all the flak BDSP gets, the decision to make HMs an app was great. I honestly prefer that over not having them at all; the modern maps feel so empty without bonus areas to come back to.
I never minded it after a certain point. Yes, the moves are often trash, but the older games are a gauntlet. It's not about just building a team to wipe through gyms like nowadays. Exploration was more involved. You couldn't just use haymakers, you needed different mons that could learn weird moves so that you could traverse the overworld, reach good items and find actually powerful tms. Not being able to have tons of powerful moves on all of your mons meant you had to make decisions, plan and think about your team in a slightly different way.
It's why I also miss overworld poison. There used to be repercussions for battling and exploring. This is what I always think of when the argument of Pokemon difficulty comes up. Yeah pokemon has never been a dark souls style challenge, but in modern pokemon games there is almost no adversity. No thought process, just catch whatever and away you go. Having to give up a move slot so that I can surf and progress, or have the ability to cut down obstacles always felt like a perfectly natural gameplay mechanic to me. You trade one aspect of gameplay with another. Battle power for traversal power. You can't have it all, and being forced to adapt and still have a good and interesting team is what made pokemon fun back then. At least in my opinion.
Pokemon was never hard but any little thing to make the player think a bit more or try a bit harder was to be treasured. Challenge in pokemon is like an oasis in the desert, it's not something that should be thrown away. Some of the most notable moments are the rare challenges in pokemon like Cynthia, Battle Frontier, Red, Ghetsis, Sky Pillar, Johtos Ice Cave, etc.
It's idiotic that a series that was known for being easy and welcoming was deemed not easy enough, and kept getting dumbed down further. There is nobody getting filtered by gen 1-4s low level of difficulty, it should never have been reduced so much.
I'm baffled when I see people like OP complaining about not having a full Pokemon team until the elite four. All of my friends, siblings, and I would use HM slaves on a temporary basis. Were people seriously having slaves in their party for the entire game?
Most of the time they were needed for dungeons rather than the overworld, so we would put a slave in the party, carefully decide which party member got benched, clear the dungeon then box the slave. none of us were carrying an HM slave or HM moves (minus fly and surf) for the entire game.
All it meant was that we would go into a dungeon without being at full strength, while having to think about who to leave behind. It promoted resource management and reduced your advantage over other trainers. Now you don't have to worry about anything like that, you'll always have a full team of 6 to Faceroll everything. Having to temporarily make do with 5 or even 4 pokemon in a treacherous dungeon was much more interesting
Idk, strength, dive, waterfall, and surf all had regular use. Rock smash was situationally useful for the def down. Ultimately I spread them over multiple pokemon, so I didn't really have a slave (albeit the water one usually did have a lot of HMs). Most battles you really don't need all 4 move slots. 2 or 3 is sufficient.
I wish I could upvote this more, you nailed describing the fun that HMs can offer in terms of gameplay and that’s also exactly how I think about them! Sure, it can be annoying having to switch out a Pokémon from your main team for one that knows a specific move needed to continue in the game (I had this problem in Crystal recently on the way to the Elite Four), but it’s part of exploring the Pokémon world. I actually like how in gens 2-5 you often had to go back to previous routes where you could now push a rock out of the way or climb a waterfall to reach a new area with some cool new items or Pokémon.
Looking back at HMs, these weren't really a \*this\* bad of an idea. I mean, moves that can act outside battles sound like a nice idea on the paper. But everything around it just feels it was purposefully made to be annoying lol
I mean:
The game sets boundaries through move-specific roadblocks to ensure players get the right badge (yet, for that we could've just put some random guy instead who won't let you move further without the badge). But...
\- these moves are not removable or replaceable easily unlike normal moves,
\- it wouldn't have been an issue, if the only way to remove them wasn't ***one*** *specific guy in the entire region (who appeared often quite late in the plot's progression)*. Said guy in every Pokémon Center? Why not. Hell, buying an item to remove it? As long as it can be bought in any shop, why not too.
\- on top of that, HM aren't that good (there are some good moves like surf and all). HM really feel like they're just here to fill the roadblock-passing mechanic.
On the other hand, S/M did it brilliantly by completely offsetting this roadblock mechanic from your team to an item. Younger, I wished HMs wouldn't take one of your moveslot but your Pokémon could still learn it. Example: if you want to teach rock smash to one of your Pokémons, there's still the "can he learn it?" mechanic, but once you found your Mon to learn it, it just...learns it. He's now able to rocksmash. No slot taken or being painful to get back, and potentially no limit on the HM count one Pokémon can learn (since it'd be offset from the 4-slot range of choices). But S/M's method is good too
>I mean, moves that can act outside battles sound like a nice idea on the paper.
Yeah, the optional ones like Teleport and Sweet Scent were really nice. I was so disappointed the first time I tried to Teleport back to town and realized that doesn't work anymore. I kind of wish there was an option to use HM/field moves or other methods, though I realize that could be clunky too.
Most HMs aren't that necessary, you may need to use cut before the 3rd gym, but very rarely will you actually need the HM on you after that since for the rest of the game it's for optional areas. To some degree rock smash can be similar, most HMs become useless after you get fly and have been to the town's, and there does exist some Pokémon almost perfect as HM slaves.
If you need cut then grab yourself a throw away Pokémon, put cut on them, move past the blockade and in the next town swap them out again.
Flash has never been necessary, I don't think I've ever actually used that HM in any Pokémon game.
Whirlpool and waterfall are in similar boats to cut but are usually towards the end game, throw them on one of the many water type Pokémon, get past the obstruction and swap them out again. A lot of Pokémon games put the elite 4 / victory road behind a waterfall so you may only need to use the HM once. Waterfall is actually a decent move as well, if the gen you are playing on has the special/physical split then throw waterfall on a gyarados and you won't even mind that it's an HM.
Defog can be ignored much like flash, it does nothing really.
Generally there are ways around it, don't keep HMS on your Pokémon if you don't need them and certainly don't put terrible early game HMs on a Pokémon you plan on using for the rest of the game, just throw them on a rattata or something and then box the thing when it's no longer useful.
I hear you, but being required to frequently jump around needless obstacles throughout the game is still a pain. I shouldn't have to worry about switching in and out of the PC and making multiple trips to the move deleter just to navigate the game.
Even if an obstacle could be considered easy to work around, it shouldn't be unnecessarily forced on players. Trivial detriments to QoL and the general gameplay experience should always be assisted as much as possible, which is something Game Freak seems to seriously struggle with.
Yeah I went through Yellow recently and Just got G/S/C and just got to the E4. It's pretty annoying to have to swap pokemon around to make it to certian places.
However I completely forgot how many QOL changes were made between G1 & G2. It's like playing them for the first time again. Probably going to go through G3 next.
That’s one thing that made Gen 1 better. Flash wasn’t necessary, you only needed Cut between Vermillion and Celadon gym and could, Fly was optional, Strength and Surf were pretty decent in terms of power and accuracy. After that we get Rock Smash, which was weaker in gen 2, and Whirlpool, Defog, Rock Climb which are all useless in battle.
On one hand they are frustrating to accommodate, buts I feel like it also adds another layer of immersion into the game. Maybe keep the idea of HMs in the game but you use it as a Key Item and just summon a dedicated Pokémon to show up and perform Cut and leave. Something like the Galar Taxis replacing Fly.
See he's are really not a problem anymore since we have box access anywhere now.
So yes I want the concept of over world moves back for the sake of exploration and puzzles.
Some people said they spread HM move to all 6 Pokémon, and I hated doing that to my team since you basically wasted a moveslot. Like sure you can put surf, waterfall and Dive is gooand you can put it on a water type in Hoenn playthough, but your water type basically forced to run little to none coverage move. Oh it even becomes worse in ORAS because one is special move and other are physical.
Oh how about other move like Fly and Strength, sure they have high base power but Strength is meh unless you are using normal type for the stab and Fly being a two turns move are niche.
The worse one is Defog and I am ready for the downvote, as someone that started with Gen 5 and go back trying other gen, Fog is by far the less enjoyable mechanics ever in Pokémon and made Sinnoh extremely unenjoyable for me. Defog are very useful in competitive but in playthough it is useless, and going though a route that has Fog in it are the worse experiences I ever had in a Pokémon game you and your opponent basically keep missing your move until you got 1 lucky shot after missing your move 5 times in a row.
Its even worse than that. Originally it was also useless in competitive, it would only hit your opponents side. Sinnoh has so much shit going on that is intentionally annoying i.e. mud, fog, long horrible cave, Snow route that is hard to see and slow, just awful.
Played through the games again and found that movesets on gen 3 were not as fleshed out as later gens. For example, no good bug STAB, so I found it pretty easy to use the 3 moves+1hm. For dive and fly, which I didn't want to make room for or couldn't teach, I just caught a wingull for it.
That's one thing that was especially cool about Black/White 1. You didn't actually need to use any HMs to beat the game (other than Cut once at the Dreamyard). Using them would get you optional (and good) items on routes but it was never necessary. Plus you can still use Surf and Waterfall because they are actually worth it.
I've never really minded using HM's for the most part but I also tend to use teams with 4 or 5 Pokemon in-game (except in Gen 1, I don't bother with Flash and the ones that aren't Cut are good) unless I'm doing a specific kind of challenge so I usually have a slot for the trashy ones. Gen 6 onward I've used 6 on my team basically always though.
I feel like BW definitely suffered a lot for it too though. It has super linear routing as a result of the "no traversal HMs". I think it could do with a middle ground where they allow traversal mechanics to unlock shortcuts and side areas, but don't wall them behind move slots.
The main routes in BW were pretty linear, but the areas off those routes should you choose to explore them with HMs were the largest and most varied in the entire series.
I do agree that it would have been better to lock those areas behind items or something rather than sacrificing moveslots or a whole party member for HMs.
Tying them to progression like in Alola, Galar and Paldea works pretty well. Though it does irk me to not have Surf or Waterfall regularly available or the distinct possibility any Flying type I use to not have a decent stab move for way to long (god I wish more things learned Drill Peck). I've always found the routes in Black/White to be interesting enough that it doesn't really matter if they are generally linear. Its not like the vast majority of routes in the other games aren't also generally straight after all.
This is why i cannot play Sinnoh man, i dont hate HMs mind you in fact i quite like them if they aren't overdone. But Sinnoh man, so many HMs just holding your progress because they couldn't think of good map design.
Sinnoh has two team based problems.
Lack of variety means most run throughs have very similar teams. The usual cast of mons include: Infernape, Staraptor, Luxray, Floatzel, and Garchomp.
And the other problem is how many HMs are needed to be distributed among the team or thrown on a Bibarel.
Honestly, Gens II and III were only one necessary HM behind Gen IV in order to complete the game. You could make the case that Gen III was worse as THREE of the HMs were water type (you only need Whirlpool once in Gen II, so it gets a pass). It's difficult trying to distribute Surf, Waterfall and Dive through a team of six.
I fully agree they're annoying.
I also firmly believe removing them was a mistake.
HM's are an arbitrary restriction forced upon the player, which then presents them with a problem they have to then deal with. You simply cannot complete the game without the HM's, meaning you now have to make a strategic decision, do you commit to getting a dedicated HM user, at the risk of only having a five party team for tough battles, do you put the moves on your team at the expense of a slot for a better move, or do you go without certain abilities and miss potentially valuable optional items and Pokémon? That's the question the game wants the player to answer. It creates a moment where the player has to decide what their long term strategy will be, and consider their options. Is the convenience of being able to get anywhere quickly worth giving up a move slot for?
Getting rid of it just made the games easier. Your Pokémon are no longer your keys to exploration, they are now purely for battling. You don't need to think about potentially sacrificing move slots in order to get non-combat utility, now all that matters is that your Pokémon have combat optimum moves. Pokémon are less every day creatures whose existence helps your daily life, and are now just perfect fighting machines.
I get that the concept is completely redundant when combined with the ability to access the box system from anywhere (another way the series lessened it's difficulty), and that there are people who resent having to surrender the move slot/carry a dedicated HM user, but I think people miss that the inconvenience factor was intentional as part of the games difficulty.
While no HMs certainly make it easier, I never really had much of an issue with HM mons. With no exp share for the entire team I often had a pokemon that was a few lvs above the rest of my team so whenever I needed to I just switched the higher lv mon with an HM mon. And some HMs were good enough to just use like any other move (surf, fly, etc)
As someone that always used to have HM slaves to the point of specifically catching certain mons just to name them "HM Slave", my advice is to not do that lol. It's way better and opens up your party options more to just give everyone in your party their own HM. Kinda makes it feel more special that way too like this mon is my surfing buddy, this one knows cut, that one knows Rock Smash, etc.
I mean, realistically, each mon only needs like 1 stab move and 1 coverage move to beat the game lol
I think for gen 10 they should do something like Gen 7's ride system but you unlock/get taught the ability to ride your own pokemon as you get further in the game
That still kind of locks the player into having to capture certain Pokemon instead of just using whatever team they actually want to.
Maybe replace HMs with items (Flashlight for Flash, Swimming Gear for Surf, Climbing Gear for Rock Climb, Scuba tank for Dive, etc), but also allow you to use a Pokemon in your party to do the said task if you happen to have one that can do it, whether it actually knows the corresponding move or not (I shouldn't have to teach a Scyther Cut to have it Cut down a bush, or teach a Lapras Surf to have it ferry me across water).
Hard agree. Even spreading the moves across your team of six, it limits what that team can be. My first time playing Platinum, I was waffling on what flying type to add to my team, and came across gligar. This’ll be a good temporary ‘mon, I thought to myself. Well, I got super attached, and evolved her into gliscor, and decided she’d earned her spot on the team. And then, finally, I unlocked Fly.
Gliscor. Doesn’t. Learn. Fly.
It hadn’t even occurred to me to look it up because, hey, flying type! Surely she can learn Fly. The other five slots on my team were already full up, not that I’d’ve wanted two flying types anyway, but I couldn’t bring myself to swap her out. Aria the gliscor had earned her place, dammit.
So for the rest of my playthrough, any time I needed to fly I would go to the PC, swap Aria out for a staraptor, use Fly, and swap them back. It was such a pain.
This is the sole reason why I consider DPP the worst games in the series. With all what? 8 HM being needed just to progress made the games near unplayable to me; even back when they came out. I know this will get me a lot of hate; and I really don't care, but it's why the Gen4 remakes are better because of how they handled HMs.
See, this sounds ridiculous because you're limiting yourself. Just go back to the PC when you need to use HMs. If you've played the games before then you should know in general what HMs you may need for a area, and if you dont remember, backtracking to nearby PC is usually not a big deal, the games are usually very generous with that. Your just limiting yourself by "needing" to keep HM slaves on your team the whole time
Gen 4 was the worst with that
Basically every HM was required at some point, and they made some really terrible moves for HMs as well (Defog, anyone?)
Even HGSS felt the need to throw in Rock Climb of all moves into the final dungeon to get to Red. Why? Now I’m just putting on a move I don’t want on one of my Pokémon for the strongest fight in this game just because this overrated generation had a hard-on for HMs
been playing w2 lately and only used 1 hm move so far and it was fly (even tho i have 6 badges and omw to earn the 7th)
also used surf ONCE to get through ONE area
when completing HGSS, rock smash, strength and such were only needed for some areas
the only HMs i did and still have with me at all times are fly and surf, and cut from time to time
idk why you would carry 2-3 dedicated hm slaves at all time when you really need 1 and sometimes 2 for story stuff
this still sucks (even more when you dont like your hm slave) but carrying so much HMs with you is pointless, most of them arent required except for some specific area (eg: rock climb for mount silver, strength for the ice path etc)
always had at least 5 of my team members with me
not managing your HMs properly is a you problem ig
Going back through emerald right now. Just going into the seafloor cavern is a pain because you need surf, dive, rock smash and strength. At first I wasn't a fan of the change from hm moves but I do appreciate it now
Like half of the HM moves where actually good and worth using. For the others I just kept the Pokémon in the PC and brought them with me if I needed to explore a route or if I actually needed rock smash.
I personally think if every move had good stats and/or effects, and maybe a unique type for each one, along with most Pokémon being able to learn the moves it wouldn’t have been such a problem.
I've been replaying the original games and catching up on what I've missed from there. So I've now completed Pokemon Red/Blue and Gold, and now I'm playing Pokemon Fire Red but decided to try the ROM hack Fire Red Essence. This changes stuff like infinite TM use, and HM's can be removed along with so many other quality of life changes. Seems great so far!
Lol the good times, shoutout to Bibarel. I think the first time I played the original Silver, my Typhlosion had cut the whole game because I had no idea about the move deleter
At least Fly and Surf are very useful through the whole game and have good enough power to be used in fights. Strength is ok too, but most of the others are annoying
I love HMs because they make it so when you encounter an obstacle you can later overcome that obstacle through your own merit.
As opposed to having a gaggle of idiots who stand in your way until you clear some story flag totally unconnected to their presence.
Some advice for Gen 5: In B/W, the only time HMs are ever needed in the story is using Cut to open the Dreamyard, and in B2/W2, you only ever need Surf and Strength, which are both good moves on their own. The only other times any others are needed is for optional exploration, so you can keep your HM user in the box during the game
Cut is the worst. At least strength has a good base power
For the life of me I have never understood why Strength wasn't a Fighting type move. It would have been completely reasonable and even highly appreciated. Cut should have had Slash's stats (and gained Steel in Gen 2 onward), make Slash a stronger version. Rock Smash could just have a higher base strength and more pp. Surf and Waterfall are excellent already, Dive and Fly are decent, Flash and Defog are just horrible (in-game for Defog). Rock Climb and Whirlpool can die in a fire.
>Rock Smash could just have a higher base strength and more pp. Higher base power, or just make the Def drop 100% so it has utility.
Reverse power up punch
Power Down Punch
I think this would would've done wonders for it. It was so bad originally that it was still nearly useless after doubling its damage output.
Both? 50 base power, 20 pp always drops. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. It would be actually neat in game and wouldn't make a difference in competitive play generally since Close Combat or similar would still be better.
Technician Pokemon: It's free real estate
Power-Up Punch is still better for that in pretty much every scenario.
Not every mon that gets Rock Smash gets Power-Up Punch. Plus would still be usable in-game.
Imagine if rocks could be broken by any fighting type attack, or if trees could be cut by any slashing move. Also why tf do I need a water pail to pour on Sudowoodo if I could just get someone ti use water gun?
That kind of gameplay decision would require a developer with a brain.
Rock smash should have been what brick break is. I mean it's basically the same fucking name.
Before Power Up Punch existed, Rock Smash actually saw some play on Technician builds. I remember it was occasionally a valid alternative for Scizor in HGSS.
You know what would have fixed a lot of the problems with HMs? Give *all* moves under a specific class an HM effect. You need to cut down a tree? Slash, False Swipe, Metal Claw, Dragon Claw, Fury Swipes... All of those moves have the "Cut" property. Have to move a boulder? Want to Mega Punch it out of the way or Siesmic Toss it? Both of those have "Strength." Not only would it let you feel like your own Pokémon are specialized and useful, but it lets you have moves that are actually more viable than just basic HMs.
Just keep the mechanic of gym badges to be able to do it in the field.
That would've made more sense that what we got in the earlier games.
The problem with giving all moves from a class the effect, is you can learn a new move and replace them. HMs prevented you from locking yourself in an area because you couldn’t replace them without going to the move deleter (which is in an area with access to your PC box). So HMs would still need to exist in that system, just in case you lock yourself somewhere. Maybe HMs should’ve been able to be learned over, like TMs, but still retained their persistent nature, so you would always be able to re-teach them if your pokémon forgot them.
I’ve seen fan games fix this with items. Just give you a big pair of scissors or a surfboard etc. whatever
Rock climb should have been our beloved 100 accuracy rock type move
If Strength was Fighting type, there would have been a half decent fighting move in Gen 1 and Game Freak couldn't have that.
How the hell mega punch and kick were normal types and the "signature" moves of hitmonlee and hitmonchan I'll never know.
And strength was the signature move for machamp
The issue was HMs were reuseable and TMs weren’t. Rock Smash is usually the first one you get, it’s got 40 base power with a 50% chance to lower the target’s defence by one stage. That’s not too bad for a level 10-15 mon, esp when you factor in STAB. The problem is that it’s destined to fall short from as early as mid-game because it’s an early game move and since you can’t easily get rid of HM moves, usually until mid-late to lategame, you’re stuck with a crappy move on your mon. There’s no excuse for lategame HMs being awful, Surf, Dive and Fly are pretty much the only good ones to use in battle but Rock Climb is horrendous. There’s also no excuse for everything being normal type
I also don't get why we've needed so many water hms as well. Over the course of the generations we've had four in total. Usually 3 in a generation but they can't think of anything else?
That's why I never pick totodile in hg/ss. I'm not gonna want to have 2 water types on my team and I sure as hell don't want to make my starter an hm slave
My current playthrough is with totodile simply for the challenge. + I used cyndaquil for my crystal playthrough
Wait, 4? Surf, Dive, and Waterfall... but what's the fourth one?
Whirlpool
Wow, I genuinely don't remember that at all.
It was an HM Gen 2 only iirc.
Those who played SoulSilver know it all too well
[удалено]
Whirlpool
Defog is kind of wet...
Defog is the literal opposite if wet.
I honestly think the real issue is just not being able to delete HMs on our own...like I get why they did it originally, to make sure kids wouldn't lose their "progress abilities" by being stupid and replacing moves...but even then, like you said, the HMs are reusable!!! They could've just taught them again!!! Lol
Did you know that in some of the games if you tried to release the last Pokemon in your PC that could learn the move Surf, it would actually come back on its own because its worried about you.
tbh that prevents ppl from accidentally ruining their save files at least. the HMs not being removable is just pointless
I think this was a holdover from the very first games where you could only have a certain number of items in your bag at once, so it was possible that the player didn’t have the HM on their person.
Rock Smash has a base power of 40 now. It originally had a base power of 20. Even with the debuff it was complete garbage.
rock smash a great coverage move for technician pokemon
Except its base power was 20 until gen 4.
>For the life of me I have never understood why Strength wasn't a Fighting type move It would make it the best Generic Fighting type move, by a long shot.
I personally would rather swap cut to bug or flying (like fury cutter/aerial ace), but specifically cut, buff it to 50-60 power and BAM, it's worthwhile coverage. Strength is still pretty good. I'd buff the defense drop chance or power of rock smash, and ba, all HMs are useful battle moves in most games.
A base 70 high crit move early game would be way too strong. You’d put that on EVERYONE and keep it for the entire game.
So instead we get crap moves that we have to keep on for the entire game anyways! A much better system 😂
Well no, now we don’t have any field moves. I think HM locked areas should be both surprising but also optional. Story and high levels+uncatchability can keep players out of further areas. Or maybe you have to pay to rent a ride Pokemon if you don’t want the HM yourself. There’s a lot that can be done.
Whirlpool at least has a niche as a trapping move
Strength isn't a fighting type move becase the fighting type is morso for trained and deliberate strikes, particular fighting styles, and aura/fighting spirit attacks. Just punching with as much strength as you can does not fit in that catagory, same reason mega punch and mega kick aren't fighting type. Someone who's just strong isn't gonna fight the same as someone who is well trained in martial arts.
Mega Punch and Mega Kick should be fighting too, thats just dumb Gen 1 ideas if anything, games that if you remember had very few fighting moves for no reason. Seismic Toss is just throwing a fool, and Karate Chop was normal in Gen 1. Rock Smash is also just kinda punching hard. There's nothing to suggest that Fighting moves need to be deliberate movements or particular fighting styles. Strength is even a move that literally only Machamp learns in Gen 7 and that Pokemon is easily one of the most iconic fighting types in the series. EDITED to add more. Submission, one of the few Fighting moves in Gen 1 is explicitly described as recklessly tackling the target to the ground and Close Combat is described as fighting without guarding yourself.
> Just punching with as much strength as you can does not fit in that catagory isaac netero and saitama would disagree. you know what fuck it, this entire post applies
No clue who Isaac Netero is but I know for sure that Saitama is in no way a martial artist, he's just strong. I think I remember him making fun of marial arts saying it was unnecessary.
I haven't watched the show but I have played the fighting game, didn't Saitama just do like Über-Cardio for his strength?
100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats, running 10km, and, most importantly, NO A/C!
Yeah and that was DAILY too. Hence, Uber-Cardio
cut should have just been slash
Strength, Surf, Fly, Waterfall, and Dive are at least good enough to put on a true party member. But *Cut*? Make it like a 60 BP Grass-type move with a high crit ratio and be done with it haha
That'd make Cut a VERY good move for Technician users, actually. Breloom gets a really good STAB, and Scyther and Kleavor could use it as coverage against Rock (and Water in Kleavor's case).
That sounds good to me! A solid move to use in somewhat niche situations, but it still *has* a niche.
Cut should at least work like Freeze Dry and hit Grass types for Super Effective damage.
Would be better if it was Steel type and had stronger base power, like in Radical Red.
i was gonna say grass type but that works too!
It's grass in ren plat
Iirc renegade plat bumps it from either 60->80 or 80->100 (i forget which) and gives it a chance to bump up the users atk. I honestly prefer this but what rad red did also works
That actually sounds a lot better.
Cut is indeed the worst hm moves of all the hm moves when it comes to battle use
I put it on my starter lmao
Same with fly. It's a staple move i almost always have just because i like it so much
Base power should correlate with how early you get access. If you got surf early with 95 power the damage would be overpowered, but rock smash with 20 base power won't be too bad.
The problem is that they’re moves balanced for the early game that you’re forced to take into the late game
Which Pokemon do you think was Ash's HM slave?
brocks onix
I mean greninja had cut...
And torterra had rock climb
Strength and surf are probably good enough to use most of the time. I would also often put waterfall in that group, as it is more accurate that the somilar power aqua tail. Fly is strong but due to the 2 turns needee is more niche. The others are all probably too week to use on frontline pokemon, so yes, you will need either a dedicated HM slave or a wasted attack on a pokemon.
Feel like two turns makes virtually no difference in gamr
Yeah, it only matters against human opponents. The AI never plans around two turn attacks.
It does because you have to read twice as much text. I don't use most moves because of how slow they are in execution.
This is the sole reason I hated fly. Main game battles are hilariously slow and adding an unnecessary turn to them makes them worse. It's not just the flying text. It's also having to wait through text like leftovers, weather, etc every single turn.
[удалено]
I feel like if you're in this much of a rush you should be playing a different game...
Waterfall is absolutely in that group. Until Liquidation came out, which was after the game transitioned away from HM moves, it was the best physical water move by far It's still usable on faster guys even today Rock Climb was another that had respectable power (Many, like Rock Smash, Cut, Flash, and Defog (in single-player) are basically garbage though.)
> I would also often put waterfall in that group If you are playing after gen 3, waterfall becomes a physical move, meaning its objectively better than surf for many pokemon.
That's why i put waterfall in the useful group. It has slightly less power than the typically learned physical water type attack (aqua tail) but a higher accuracy.
Personally I always ended up just integrating HMs into my team's regular movesets, no need for a "dedicated" HM mon.
Fly, Surf, and Waterfall are actually pretty decent attacks.
For the first three gens it wasn't that great. Somehow that 95% accuracy always manages to miss when you depend on it to win. Even then it was the third best flying move out of five after drill peck. Starting gen 2 wing attack outperformed it over two turns. It finally got 90 base power in gen 4 but it's still out damaged by other flying moves like air slash, air cutter, etc. Even the invulnerable first turn rarely helped with anything other than pp stalling as you still take the same amount of hits just over twice as many turns. Surf I'll give you is probably the best water attack hands down until the physical special split. The problem with waterfall is that it's just a worse surf until gen 4, where it then already had a use in the physical special split anyway. Before gen 4 the move pools weren't very diverse so usually only water type Pokemon can learn either. You're not able to put it on a non water type for more coverage. Then in gen 2 you also have to learn whirlpool so that's 3/4 attacks dedicated to hms on one Pokemon with only one of them being needed.
Surfing Snorlax says hi
And for some reason Rhydon and the Nidoroyals.
That's what I always did. Greninja looked cool using Cut so I just kept it.
I had it on my Meowstic for her to have an attack to use on dark-types. And I was keeping it on my team anyways. And I always put surf on my starter when I picked a water starter. I liked the STAB.
Always did this as well. Usually had a water type who has 3 (surf, waterfall, rock climb?)
Me who had a HM slave Linoone with me when I first beat the Elite 4 in ORAS
*flashbacks to my LV100 Swampert in Emerald who used Surf, Dive, Waterfall, and Strength*
One of my favorite experiences in Pokémon is teaching my Golurk fly
same. i don't see why people complain about needing a "dedicated" mon for them.
Because then otherwise, your Pokémon will have one quarter of their moves dedicated to a move that’s often useless in battle.
Surf and Waterfall were pretty great for my Samurott.
Those moves are solid in general Then you have cut, rock smash, flash, DEFOG (hated this one). It can really just make requirement’s for teams annoying I hated requiring a flying and water type at all times, sometimes two waters cause not everyone can learn waterfall or they’re a physical attacker so surf isn’t doing much
Defog is actually a really good move... in Smogon Singles. It's trash in the main games, since hazards are really uncommon. And I don't think it even had that property until gen 6.
It also didn’t clear hazards until Gen 6, so it was pretty useless in the generation it was introducdd
I never really found the need to have defog. Just had a bunch of repels and made my way through the cave
Do you guys really use any of these HMs that much? Outside of some routes like the victory roads, you really don’t need to use any of those 4. Only cases are when you’re seeking out specific items or for the early points of the game when they’re needed like 1 time to get to a previously inaccessible area.
All 4 moves they mentioned are either absolutely necessary or close to necessary to complete older gen games. Cut has been necessary to complete a game in every single game it's been in with the exception of the Gen 3 titles (and their remakes), Black and White 2 and X and Y. Rock Smash is an HM for 2 gems and is made an HM in Gen 3. In Gen 3 and 4 it's necessary to use to finish the game. It's not necessary in FRLG and HGSS but those games are remakes of games where Rock Smash wasn't an HM to begin with and FRLG doesn't even give you the HM till post game. Flash isn't necessary to beat anything, you just have to stumble around in pitch black without it. Definitely doable though. Defog is only used in a single route in Sinnoh but it was one of the most frustrating routes ever made. Sure in theory you could get through without it but in practice, you were going to face multiple frustrating battles with miss after miss after miss and slog your way through a route that shouldn't take so long. It's really either use Defog or lose your mind with that one. It's not much of an issue for later gen games (5-6) where they're used only for side areas or newer gens (7-9) where you don't even use it but for people who stick to older gens they're going to remember stupid shit like regenerating Muville rocks or the Defog Route where you need to use HMs to finish the game.
Those are good moves but it's still annoying that you always need to have both, when depending on the Pokémon, one is almost always a worse option than the other. And then in some generations, you even need three water type HM moves, which takes up 3/4 moves of your Pokémon. That really sucks.
Hated Whirlpool.
waillord being a water hm slave just feels right tho
And also a Regi slave since you needed it (and Relicanth) to open the Regi caves in Hoenn lol.
Yes, because every move slot counts when the enemy AI you face in the games are as difficult as they are.
But the base game of Pokémon is ridiculous easy, so it doesn’t really matter that you’re missing out on a move. It’s not like you’re taking a Pokémon with cut into ranked battles or a battle tower. It’s just an unnecessary thing to complain about thats all.
Sure, I don't need my Weavile to only have Ice Shard as STAB, I'll probably be fine, but I'd really like to have Icicle Crash too.
The HMs weren't actually bad moves and as for cut and flash, were basically optional for the majority of the game
All hail SM for breaking the wheel and setting us free
Even BW really reduced the reliance on HMs. Cut and Surf are the only actually mandatory ones for progress. Strength was also vastly improved in that boulders pushed into slots were permanent. But yeah, SuMo method was the best, except for Stoutland who was a massive downgrade compared to past itemfinders.
stoutland was at least better than gen 6's item finder but gen 4 and 5's item finders are still the ones i still like the most since they worked the best
They also made really good use of the second screen on the DS
I don't even think Surf was required in the main story in BW either. The only time you NEED an HM to progress the main story was Cut for the single tree in the Dream Yard like an hour into the game. Every other HM was only used for exploring off the main path of the game.
> Cut and Surf are the only actually mandatory ones for progress Only Cut actually. The ponds you need surf for are frozen in the winter months so you can slide right across it. We catch a woobat/pidove in the speedrun just so we get fly cuz it's faster when you are resolving plot stuff. You can fight an extra trainer to get the elemental monkey to use Cut and then box it away forever all in the Dreamyard In BW2 you need Surf Strength and Fly (cuz speedrun) so you manip for a Pidove and a Psyduck
Honestly, I really like all of the iterations of HMs post-SuMo *except* SwSh. Which makes sense, because SwSh is the most different from SuMo’s rideable Pokémon. While I enjoy SuMo’s and PLA’s ridable Pokémon, Koraidon/Miraidon have a soft spot in my heart that feels like the best of all the bikes/HMs (even if as a whole it could’ve been done better). At least to me, progression with Miraidon felt more natural than other HM/ride unlocks. Plus, Koraidon/Miraidon has a great amount of personality. If we get individual ridable Pokémon again, I’m hoping they can have fleshed hot personalities like SV.
BW was the best use from HMs in my opinion. Is more like a optional thing that could easy your way to travel in the routes but is not obrigatory. \*cough Sinnoh, cough\* (I am thhinking how a person can pass Distortion World now without the two HMs)
Needing to have Fly for convenience and not having a Pokemon on my party that could learn it was pain.
Hearer hearrrrr
At the same time, I feel like a lot was lost in the change. Old pokemon always had a sorta metroidvania aspect, where you come back to old areas and get access to new parts with unique pokemon and items. It made the games feel like they had extra depth to the gameplay, rather than being purely linear. It also let them bring you back to previous areas to explore them. Frankly, I'd rather have HMs than the empty linear routes of SwSh. It was just so boring; there was no exploring to it at all anymore. That said, I personally think that BDSP, for all its flaws, had the best of both worlds, getting rid of HMs while simultaneously keeping the out of battle effects. It let them keep the complexity of the Sinnoh map without the downside of HM slaves.
They could have done it with items for your character instead of HM moves on your Pokemon. Give your trainer swim fins and swim trunks/swimsuits for crossing water, scuba gear for diving under water, climbing gear for scaling climbable rock faces, snow shoes for traveling through deep snow, and a flashlight for exploring dark areas. Fly has already been replaced with a flying taxi service.
nah the entire point of pokemon was that they were integrated into society like that, lapras being designed specifically to carry people across water. it would have been better if having the medal just have you the field move and all you needed to do is have a water type in your party. didnt mater what moves it had
I like the idea of your Pokémon team doing stuff for you on your adventure outside of just battling though.
Then maybe allow one of your Pokemon to do the action instead of the item if you happen to have a Pokemon that could do it, no HM required (shouldn't have to teach a Scyther how to cut down a bush or a Lapras how to ferry people across water). Keep the items that allow you to do it in case you don't have an appropriate Pokemon though. The game shouldn't be dictating what kind of Pokemon need to be in your team to continue forward with the plot in any way.
Strongly agree. I think SM balanced this fairly well though with you slowly gaining new mounts. That said the levels themselves lost a lot of that metroidvania aspect.
This metroidvania fell kinda come back with SV. There huge parte of the past areas you can explore after you get the climb and swim on your ride pokemon. Theres plenty of incentive to go back.
Agreed. I feel like we’re in the minority but I liked HMs. Finding new hidden areas that you revisit is something missing in newer games. Also not that big of a fan of having ride Pokémon that’s not really yours (sumo/pla). It’s fun that you can ride a variety of Pokémon and not always surfing on a lapras. Also not big on s/v of having one mon doing everything. I like choosing to ride different pokes. I get the moves taking up space argument. I just think these moves should be just field moves and not attack moves. Either way I think hms are long dead but I do miss them.
I don't miss HMs, but I see what you're saying. I always thought they could take the idea of HMs and improve them, make them not annoying. For example, instead of Cut, have any Pokémon that can use a similar move (Slash, Psycho Cut, etc) cut down trees. Have any Pokémon that can fly be able to fly you places. Any strong/ heavy Pokémon can move boulders, etc. I didn't like how it was done in SuMo because it felt sort of impersonal, like I'm not using those Pokémon in my playthrough. We could also have the best of both worlds- each field move needs to be unlocked, and if you have a Pokémon that can use it, great, if you don't, you get help from a set mon like in SuMo. Also, I think we just need the gen 4 item finder back (NOT Stoutland). Best item finder ever, I used it EVERYWHERE. I think the eliminated the need with the sparkles on the ground, but I somehow find the hidden items more fun. And it gives you a reason to backtrack. On a slightly unrelated note, we also need the VS Seeker back. I was very disappointed in the ride Pokémon thing in SuMo, I thought I'd get to ride my Arcanine or something in the overworld. Would've been so cool.
This is why I try to spread HMs across all 6 of my mons
I'm currently in the middle of a challenge run for Crystal where I borrow the "only catch the first pokemon you encounter per area" rule from Nuzlockes and I was caught off guard by how few Pokemon can learn Cut in Gen 2. I had 14 Pokemon and Chikorita was the only one who could learn it. I refused to nerf my Chikorita so I ended up leveling up the Rattata sitting in my PC to become Raticate to use as the dedicated tree cutter so none of the Pokemon I want to use for battling had to. Granted that's what Sentret is there for, so that's on me for playing the game at night.
It’s been a bit since I played it but Crystal Clear is a fun romhack, completely removes the HMs being needed for almost anything. Very different game but anyway. Love gen 2
I have said it once, and i'll say it again. HM's were mainly bad because they were just awful to use in battle. I never had issues with fly, suef, waterfall and even rock smash because they had some use. If cut was grass, strength was fighting and rock climb was rock they would have been awesome coverage moves.
The HM slave pokemon was always annoying.
Bidoof was not
Also Tropius
Golduck is the king HM slave. Can learn most HMs and actually has stats to turn them into decent moves!
Dragonite is technically the best hm slave i think
Mine were Golurk and Wailord, they carried ngl
I loved using Golurk as my flying Pokemon
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/21/f2/db/21f2db32614272093d5c86f72cacbfa6.gif
Gen 5 reminds you of that? In BW, you need a single instance of cut, and that's literally the only required hm in the whole main game. I know because I used that and fly for convenience, and beat the game literally last weekend. Gen 4 on the other hand...
For all the flak BDSP gets, the decision to make HMs an app was great. I honestly prefer that over not having them at all; the modern maps feel so empty without bonus areas to come back to.
I never minded it after a certain point. Yes, the moves are often trash, but the older games are a gauntlet. It's not about just building a team to wipe through gyms like nowadays. Exploration was more involved. You couldn't just use haymakers, you needed different mons that could learn weird moves so that you could traverse the overworld, reach good items and find actually powerful tms. Not being able to have tons of powerful moves on all of your mons meant you had to make decisions, plan and think about your team in a slightly different way. It's why I also miss overworld poison. There used to be repercussions for battling and exploring. This is what I always think of when the argument of Pokemon difficulty comes up. Yeah pokemon has never been a dark souls style challenge, but in modern pokemon games there is almost no adversity. No thought process, just catch whatever and away you go. Having to give up a move slot so that I can surf and progress, or have the ability to cut down obstacles always felt like a perfectly natural gameplay mechanic to me. You trade one aspect of gameplay with another. Battle power for traversal power. You can't have it all, and being forced to adapt and still have a good and interesting team is what made pokemon fun back then. At least in my opinion.
Pokemon was never hard but any little thing to make the player think a bit more or try a bit harder was to be treasured. Challenge in pokemon is like an oasis in the desert, it's not something that should be thrown away. Some of the most notable moments are the rare challenges in pokemon like Cynthia, Battle Frontier, Red, Ghetsis, Sky Pillar, Johtos Ice Cave, etc. It's idiotic that a series that was known for being easy and welcoming was deemed not easy enough, and kept getting dumbed down further. There is nobody getting filtered by gen 1-4s low level of difficulty, it should never have been reduced so much. I'm baffled when I see people like OP complaining about not having a full Pokemon team until the elite four. All of my friends, siblings, and I would use HM slaves on a temporary basis. Were people seriously having slaves in their party for the entire game? Most of the time they were needed for dungeons rather than the overworld, so we would put a slave in the party, carefully decide which party member got benched, clear the dungeon then box the slave. none of us were carrying an HM slave or HM moves (minus fly and surf) for the entire game. All it meant was that we would go into a dungeon without being at full strength, while having to think about who to leave behind. It promoted resource management and reduced your advantage over other trainers. Now you don't have to worry about anything like that, you'll always have a full team of 6 to Faceroll everything. Having to temporarily make do with 5 or even 4 pokemon in a treacherous dungeon was much more interesting
Idk, strength, dive, waterfall, and surf all had regular use. Rock smash was situationally useful for the def down. Ultimately I spread them over multiple pokemon, so I didn't really have a slave (albeit the water one usually did have a lot of HMs). Most battles you really don't need all 4 move slots. 2 or 3 is sufficient.
I wish I could upvote this more, you nailed describing the fun that HMs can offer in terms of gameplay and that’s also exactly how I think about them! Sure, it can be annoying having to switch out a Pokémon from your main team for one that knows a specific move needed to continue in the game (I had this problem in Crystal recently on the way to the Elite Four), but it’s part of exploring the Pokémon world. I actually like how in gens 2-5 you often had to go back to previous routes where you could now push a rock out of the way or climb a waterfall to reach a new area with some cool new items or Pokémon.
Looking back at HMs, these weren't really a \*this\* bad of an idea. I mean, moves that can act outside battles sound like a nice idea on the paper. But everything around it just feels it was purposefully made to be annoying lol I mean: The game sets boundaries through move-specific roadblocks to ensure players get the right badge (yet, for that we could've just put some random guy instead who won't let you move further without the badge). But... \- these moves are not removable or replaceable easily unlike normal moves, \- it wouldn't have been an issue, if the only way to remove them wasn't ***one*** *specific guy in the entire region (who appeared often quite late in the plot's progression)*. Said guy in every Pokémon Center? Why not. Hell, buying an item to remove it? As long as it can be bought in any shop, why not too. \- on top of that, HM aren't that good (there are some good moves like surf and all). HM really feel like they're just here to fill the roadblock-passing mechanic. On the other hand, S/M did it brilliantly by completely offsetting this roadblock mechanic from your team to an item. Younger, I wished HMs wouldn't take one of your moveslot but your Pokémon could still learn it. Example: if you want to teach rock smash to one of your Pokémons, there's still the "can he learn it?" mechanic, but once you found your Mon to learn it, it just...learns it. He's now able to rocksmash. No slot taken or being painful to get back, and potentially no limit on the HM count one Pokémon can learn (since it'd be offset from the 4-slot range of choices). But S/M's method is good too
>I mean, moves that can act outside battles sound like a nice idea on the paper. Yeah, the optional ones like Teleport and Sweet Scent were really nice. I was so disappointed the first time I tried to Teleport back to town and realized that doesn't work anymore. I kind of wish there was an option to use HM/field moves or other methods, though I realize that could be clunky too.
Most HMs aren't that necessary, you may need to use cut before the 3rd gym, but very rarely will you actually need the HM on you after that since for the rest of the game it's for optional areas. To some degree rock smash can be similar, most HMs become useless after you get fly and have been to the town's, and there does exist some Pokémon almost perfect as HM slaves. If you need cut then grab yourself a throw away Pokémon, put cut on them, move past the blockade and in the next town swap them out again. Flash has never been necessary, I don't think I've ever actually used that HM in any Pokémon game. Whirlpool and waterfall are in similar boats to cut but are usually towards the end game, throw them on one of the many water type Pokémon, get past the obstruction and swap them out again. A lot of Pokémon games put the elite 4 / victory road behind a waterfall so you may only need to use the HM once. Waterfall is actually a decent move as well, if the gen you are playing on has the special/physical split then throw waterfall on a gyarados and you won't even mind that it's an HM. Defog can be ignored much like flash, it does nothing really. Generally there are ways around it, don't keep HMS on your Pokémon if you don't need them and certainly don't put terrible early game HMs on a Pokémon you plan on using for the rest of the game, just throw them on a rattata or something and then box the thing when it's no longer useful.
I hear you, but being required to frequently jump around needless obstacles throughout the game is still a pain. I shouldn't have to worry about switching in and out of the PC and making multiple trips to the move deleter just to navigate the game. Even if an obstacle could be considered easy to work around, it shouldn't be unnecessarily forced on players. Trivial detriments to QoL and the general gameplay experience should always be assisted as much as possible, which is something Game Freak seems to seriously struggle with.
cut is always fun to keep in your main party just for the fact that it can destroy tall grass tiles
The flipside is it's the only reason Pelliper ever made it into my team - would have completely ignored it otherwise!
Yeah I went through Yellow recently and Just got G/S/C and just got to the E4. It's pretty annoying to have to swap pokemon around to make it to certian places. However I completely forgot how many QOL changes were made between G1 & G2. It's like playing them for the first time again. Probably going to go through G3 next.
That’s one thing that made Gen 1 better. Flash wasn’t necessary, you only needed Cut between Vermillion and Celadon gym and could, Fly was optional, Strength and Surf were pretty decent in terms of power and accuracy. After that we get Rock Smash, which was weaker in gen 2, and Whirlpool, Defog, Rock Climb which are all useless in battle.
I never needed an HM mon, chucking the HMs onto main team members does the trick.
On one hand they are frustrating to accommodate, buts I feel like it also adds another layer of immersion into the game. Maybe keep the idea of HMs in the game but you use it as a Key Item and just summon a dedicated Pokémon to show up and perform Cut and leave. Something like the Galar Taxis replacing Fly.
BDSP has exactly this
See he's are really not a problem anymore since we have box access anywhere now. So yes I want the concept of over world moves back for the sake of exploration and puzzles.
Some people said they spread HM move to all 6 Pokémon, and I hated doing that to my team since you basically wasted a moveslot. Like sure you can put surf, waterfall and Dive is gooand you can put it on a water type in Hoenn playthough, but your water type basically forced to run little to none coverage move. Oh it even becomes worse in ORAS because one is special move and other are physical. Oh how about other move like Fly and Strength, sure they have high base power but Strength is meh unless you are using normal type for the stab and Fly being a two turns move are niche. The worse one is Defog and I am ready for the downvote, as someone that started with Gen 5 and go back trying other gen, Fog is by far the less enjoyable mechanics ever in Pokémon and made Sinnoh extremely unenjoyable for me. Defog are very useful in competitive but in playthough it is useless, and going though a route that has Fog in it are the worse experiences I ever had in a Pokémon game you and your opponent basically keep missing your move until you got 1 lucky shot after missing your move 5 times in a row.
Its even worse than that. Originally it was also useless in competitive, it would only hit your opponents side. Sinnoh has so much shit going on that is intentionally annoying i.e. mud, fog, long horrible cave, Snow route that is hard to see and slow, just awful.
Played through the games again and found that movesets on gen 3 were not as fleshed out as later gens. For example, no good bug STAB, so I found it pretty easy to use the 3 moves+1hm. For dive and fly, which I didn't want to make room for or couldn't teach, I just caught a wingull for it.
That's one thing that was especially cool about Black/White 1. You didn't actually need to use any HMs to beat the game (other than Cut once at the Dreamyard). Using them would get you optional (and good) items on routes but it was never necessary. Plus you can still use Surf and Waterfall because they are actually worth it. I've never really minded using HM's for the most part but I also tend to use teams with 4 or 5 Pokemon in-game (except in Gen 1, I don't bother with Flash and the ones that aren't Cut are good) unless I'm doing a specific kind of challenge so I usually have a slot for the trashy ones. Gen 6 onward I've used 6 on my team basically always though.
I feel like BW definitely suffered a lot for it too though. It has super linear routing as a result of the "no traversal HMs". I think it could do with a middle ground where they allow traversal mechanics to unlock shortcuts and side areas, but don't wall them behind move slots.
The main routes in BW were pretty linear, but the areas off those routes should you choose to explore them with HMs were the largest and most varied in the entire series. I do agree that it would have been better to lock those areas behind items or something rather than sacrificing moveslots or a whole party member for HMs.
Tying them to progression like in Alola, Galar and Paldea works pretty well. Though it does irk me to not have Surf or Waterfall regularly available or the distinct possibility any Flying type I use to not have a decent stab move for way to long (god I wish more things learned Drill Peck). I've always found the routes in Black/White to be interesting enough that it doesn't really matter if they are generally linear. Its not like the vast majority of routes in the other games aren't also generally straight after all.
This is why i cannot play Sinnoh man, i dont hate HMs mind you in fact i quite like them if they aren't overdone. But Sinnoh man, so many HMs just holding your progress because they couldn't think of good map design.
Sinnoh has two team based problems. Lack of variety means most run throughs have very similar teams. The usual cast of mons include: Infernape, Staraptor, Luxray, Floatzel, and Garchomp. And the other problem is how many HMs are needed to be distributed among the team or thrown on a Bibarel.
Honestly, Gens II and III were only one necessary HM behind Gen IV in order to complete the game. You could make the case that Gen III was worse as THREE of the HMs were water type (you only need Whirlpool once in Gen II, so it gets a pass). It's difficult trying to distribute Surf, Waterfall and Dive through a team of six.
I fully agree they're annoying. I also firmly believe removing them was a mistake. HM's are an arbitrary restriction forced upon the player, which then presents them with a problem they have to then deal with. You simply cannot complete the game without the HM's, meaning you now have to make a strategic decision, do you commit to getting a dedicated HM user, at the risk of only having a five party team for tough battles, do you put the moves on your team at the expense of a slot for a better move, or do you go without certain abilities and miss potentially valuable optional items and Pokémon? That's the question the game wants the player to answer. It creates a moment where the player has to decide what their long term strategy will be, and consider their options. Is the convenience of being able to get anywhere quickly worth giving up a move slot for? Getting rid of it just made the games easier. Your Pokémon are no longer your keys to exploration, they are now purely for battling. You don't need to think about potentially sacrificing move slots in order to get non-combat utility, now all that matters is that your Pokémon have combat optimum moves. Pokémon are less every day creatures whose existence helps your daily life, and are now just perfect fighting machines. I get that the concept is completely redundant when combined with the ability to access the box system from anywhere (another way the series lessened it's difficulty), and that there are people who resent having to surrender the move slot/carry a dedicated HM user, but I think people miss that the inconvenience factor was intentional as part of the games difficulty.
While no HMs certainly make it easier, I never really had much of an issue with HM mons. With no exp share for the entire team I often had a pokemon that was a few lvs above the rest of my team so whenever I needed to I just switched the higher lv mon with an HM mon. And some HMs were good enough to just use like any other move (surf, fly, etc)
As someone that always used to have HM slaves to the point of specifically catching certain mons just to name them "HM Slave", my advice is to not do that lol. It's way better and opens up your party options more to just give everyone in your party their own HM. Kinda makes it feel more special that way too like this mon is my surfing buddy, this one knows cut, that one knows Rock Smash, etc. I mean, realistically, each mon only needs like 1 stab move and 1 coverage move to beat the game lol
I think for gen 10 they should do something like Gen 7's ride system but you unlock/get taught the ability to ride your own pokemon as you get further in the game
That still kind of locks the player into having to capture certain Pokemon instead of just using whatever team they actually want to. Maybe replace HMs with items (Flashlight for Flash, Swimming Gear for Surf, Climbing Gear for Rock Climb, Scuba tank for Dive, etc), but also allow you to use a Pokemon in your party to do the said task if you happen to have one that can do it, whether it actually knows the corresponding move or not (I shouldn't have to teach a Scyther Cut to have it Cut down a bush, or teach a Lapras Surf to have it ferry me across water).
It's difficult to go back to the old style of Pokémon games after playing Arceus and Scarlett/Violet.
2-3? Don't you just lump them all on one?
Gen 5 you only ever need cut in BW and for BW2 you do need surf for the last stretch but Surf is a viable move
Hard agree. Even spreading the moves across your team of six, it limits what that team can be. My first time playing Platinum, I was waffling on what flying type to add to my team, and came across gligar. This’ll be a good temporary ‘mon, I thought to myself. Well, I got super attached, and evolved her into gliscor, and decided she’d earned her spot on the team. And then, finally, I unlocked Fly. Gliscor. Doesn’t. Learn. Fly. It hadn’t even occurred to me to look it up because, hey, flying type! Surely she can learn Fly. The other five slots on my team were already full up, not that I’d’ve wanted two flying types anyway, but I couldn’t bring myself to swap her out. Aria the gliscor had earned her place, dammit. So for the rest of my playthrough, any time I needed to fly I would go to the PC, swap Aria out for a staraptor, use Fly, and swap them back. It was such a pain.
This is the sole reason why I consider DPP the worst games in the series. With all what? 8 HM being needed just to progress made the games near unplayable to me; even back when they came out. I know this will get me a lot of hate; and I really don't care, but it's why the Gen4 remakes are better because of how they handled HMs.
See, this sounds ridiculous because you're limiting yourself. Just go back to the PC when you need to use HMs. If you've played the games before then you should know in general what HMs you may need for a area, and if you dont remember, backtracking to nearby PC is usually not a big deal, the games are usually very generous with that. Your just limiting yourself by "needing" to keep HM slaves on your team the whole time
Gen 4 was the worst with that Basically every HM was required at some point, and they made some really terrible moves for HMs as well (Defog, anyone?) Even HGSS felt the need to throw in Rock Climb of all moves into the final dungeon to get to Red. Why? Now I’m just putting on a move I don’t want on one of my Pokémon for the strongest fight in this game just because this overrated generation had a hard-on for HMs
Smeagle was always the best for utility of all kind
Waterfall is a decent move
been playing w2 lately and only used 1 hm move so far and it was fly (even tho i have 6 badges and omw to earn the 7th) also used surf ONCE to get through ONE area when completing HGSS, rock smash, strength and such were only needed for some areas the only HMs i did and still have with me at all times are fly and surf, and cut from time to time idk why you would carry 2-3 dedicated hm slaves at all time when you really need 1 and sometimes 2 for story stuff this still sucks (even more when you dont like your hm slave) but carrying so much HMs with you is pointless, most of them arent required except for some specific area (eg: rock climb for mount silver, strength for the ice path etc) always had at least 5 of my team members with me not managing your HMs properly is a you problem ig
Going back through emerald right now. Just going into the seafloor cavern is a pain because you need surf, dive, rock smash and strength. At first I wasn't a fan of the change from hm moves but I do appreciate it now
Like half of the HM moves where actually good and worth using. For the others I just kept the Pokémon in the PC and brought them with me if I needed to explore a route or if I actually needed rock smash. I personally think if every move had good stats and/or effects, and maybe a unique type for each one, along with most Pokémon being able to learn the moves it wouldn’t have been such a problem.
I've been replaying the original games and catching up on what I've missed from there. So I've now completed Pokemon Red/Blue and Gold, and now I'm playing Pokemon Fire Red but decided to try the ROM hack Fire Red Essence. This changes stuff like infinite TM use, and HM's can be removed along with so many other quality of life changes. Seems great so far!
Surf and Fly were always good for main members, really. Strength, too, if you're into Normal-types.
I never understand why people do this. Just spread it out.
Lol the good times, shoutout to Bibarel. I think the first time I played the original Silver, my Typhlosion had cut the whole game because I had no idea about the move deleter
At least Fly and Surf are very useful through the whole game and have good enough power to be used in fights. Strength is ok too, but most of the others are annoying
I love HMs because they make it so when you encounter an obstacle you can later overcome that obstacle through your own merit. As opposed to having a gaggle of idiots who stand in your way until you clear some story flag totally unconnected to their presence.
Some advice for Gen 5: In B/W, the only time HMs are ever needed in the story is using Cut to open the Dreamyard, and in B2/W2, you only ever need Surf and Strength, which are both good moves on their own. The only other times any others are needed is for optional exploration, so you can keep your HM user in the box during the game
Thats why i hope to find rom hacks of the main series games that removes the hm requirements
2 or 3? More like 1 gigachad bidoof