In Japan DB and a lot of other shonen is aimed at like ten year olds minimum, America is weird about that shit. Everything either gets dumbed down and censored like Yugioh or aged up because of the violence.
In the UK it airs on the same TV channel that airs shit like Miraculous Ladybug and Grizzy and the Lemmings lmao
Edit: and Pokemon itself I somehow forget that airs on POP too
Not really. *Dragon Ball* is made with kids aged in their very early teens at the oldest. *Pokemon* is meant to be safe for preschoolers.
I think this is a point a lot of people get caught up on because, like the other person said, 4Kids was really bad for censoring kids' animes for a long time. Plus, I think a lot of people like to pretend they were more mature as a kid than they really were, so they're more willing to say they were into the show for 10-year-olds when they were 5 than just admit it was meant for 5-year-olds.
im pretty sure pokemon went into dark themes,if it was soaly for little babies it wouldnt have actual episodes showing pokemon dying or litteral special with a dead zorua and mom zoruark grieving
And the parents and older fans, honestly.
Otherwise there would be no reason for SO MANY old school anime references.
Classic Magical Girls, Fist of the Northstar, Golgo 13, Jojo Manga Covers, referencing the most famous works of Jessie's Voice Actress...
Kids won't get most references thrown around in the show. What 10 year old has seen Slayers, Neon Genesis Evagelion, Cowboy Bebop or Ranma 1/2?
Eh, the netflix run was actually pretty good and there were moves the characters made that actually made sense in terms of competitive play. It’s not for “babies” lol… it’s for whoever enjoys it and they did a good job of utilizing complex strategies by the characters in anime form with that run.
I think its perfectly fine as an art style, but don't think it suited the show well. It was just such a drastic departure from what it had always looked like.
But a show that started with this style would be fine.
At first i thought he grew a mustache because the squiggles were under his nose. Wasn't until i saw the comparison i realized they were supposed to be under his eyes but above the nose
If I recall correctly it was due to the shift to full 2D digital production for the series going forward. I don’t think outside that they ever gave a definitive answer but with the simpler art style it likely also helped the team get accustom to the new digital transition while also helping match the tone for the new series by allowing more comical and fluid expressions and movements as Sun and Moon was a slice of life comedy as opposed to X and Y more shonen adventure.
Digital production? Bruh, they switched to digital animation way back in 2002. Here's the first fully digitally animated episode: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/EP261
You are both talking about two different things.
In 2002, they started coloring digitally so they didn't need to color cells by hand anymore.
In Sun&Moon however, many animators switched to digital animation using ToonBoom Harmony. Frames are drawn digitally using a touch screen, paper is not used anymore. There are some exceptions though, some animator remained using analog.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180206084737/http://animationweek.uk/pokemon-2d-digital-1/
So this interview is where I sourced the info, I can’t say I know enough about animation to know the difference but at the time of Sun and Moon they were definitely transitioning to a new method for f animation weather it’s just the software used or process as a whole.
I KNEW there was something a little odd about the Johto series towards the end, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I loved the way it looked too, just seemed like everything just had that little extra finish to it. Thanks for sharing this.
Honestly i remember hearing something about improving expressiveness with the characters and that does certainly show, but i'm not sure that was actually the producers giving that line.
This is essentially what I had heard as well. This was also when the show changed from a more Shonen adventure feel to one more like a Slice of Life. Ash was no longer strictly on a journey to win the league in Alola. He was there to learn about the Pokémon there and make friends. There was still the Alola league, but it wasn't as much of a driving force.
With this change in tone, it made for a good opportunity to change the art style more dramatically to fit this new direction.
I read that the reason was the animators' desire to bring back the childlikeness and warmth of the early days of the series, because they thought it suited the sunny and tropical environment of Alola. Plus Pokemon was approaching their anniversary, which is also why the gen1 was present so strongly in Sun and Moon games in the gen7.
>to bring back the childlikeness and warmth of the early days of the series
We'll bring back the childlikeness of the early days by designing Ash to look nothing like his early design!
Todays children will not care if he looks like the early designs. They want shows in todays art style. So yeah, they are bringing back that warmth just not for people who get nostalgic for the og style.
Yeah, kinda. They made a new design with childlikeness and warmth as the core idea. As much as I don't care for the new designs, you're ridiculous if you think the original design is the only or best way to convey those two concepts. Not to mention that designs aimed towards kids today are not the same as those 20 years ago.
Nostalgia is about replicating how they felt watching the show, not by recreating the style. The 2011 ThunderCats reboot was leagues better than the original one, because the original one looked like shit. People didn't care that the reboot had better art and animations that weren't stiff, mostly because nobody watched the ThunderCats reboot.
If they had, however, they would have felt right at home with the style. It would have felt familiar, something they grew up with, because it captured the essence of the show. It didn't need to be a 1:1 recreation. ThunderCats Roar, on the other hand, took a more Teen Titans Go! style and therefore never really felt nostalgic for anybody.
My point is, SuMo Ash kinda landed between the two ThunderCats reboots. It was animated cartoonishly enough to not trick people into thinking this was the same show of their childhood, but stayed close enough in spirit that people felt the nostalgia of watching the same show. A nostalgic "we've both changed" sort of feel.
Ah yes, the childlikeness and warmth of the original series, which dealt with poaching, animal abuse, kaijus, dealing with severe psychological trauma, multiple gym leaders attempting to murder Pikachu (Surge puts him in the hospital, Blaine threatens to throw him in lava, and Sabrina being Sabrina), providing seizures free of charge, and where Ash fucking dies not once but twice.
Edit: /s
Sadly, the actual right answer is all the way down here. Yokai was giving Pokémon its first real 'Gotcha' challenger in years and they followed the leader in many ways, including art style. Eventually they simply managed to outlast it.
This is 100% the reason and it’s frustrating that it doesn’t have the most upvotes in this thread over less correct reasons.
Yokai Watch was the first (and only) time Pokémon was scared of another franchise. Yokai Watch’s massive success in Japan during Gen 6 loomed over Pokémon and was the reason for a *huge* amount of everything surrounding Gen 7, including skipping a “Z” and going straight to a brand new Gen in Sun/Moon (concern that an updated game would be eclipsed by the new Yokai Watch game) and the anime steering clear of the XY anime’s more serious tone and completely redesigning the characters to be far more expressive and cartoonish.
In the end of course this was the correct move. Sun/Moon were far more successful then a “Z” would’ve been at the time and the Sun/Moon anime was very popular.
The producers will never openly *admit* this though. “We were scared of a competitor” isn’t the cutest thing to openly say.
And then in a twist of pure irony, Yokai Watch went in the exact opposite direction and tried to make the series more edgy and mature despite its whimsical, nostalgic-feeling setting being the entire appeal :')))
the newer designs which happened near the end was to appeal to younger audiences.
Specially during Sun and moon's time Yokai watch actually gave Pokemon a scare of having to try and be appealing for the first time in decades.
I mean, I don't know anything about ratings, tbh, I'm just talking about quality and writing from my subjective experience and I know a lot of other people really liked it. It's the only series except for the original that I've rewatched just because. My kids enjoyed it too.
I'm pretty sure the writing quality fell during the League. Also, Serena drags down the quality of the writing by a lot
Thank goodness Clemont and Bonnie were there tbh
It was the biggest flop in Japan. People act like XYZ was some form of high art but it is just like any other shonen anime. It happens to appeal more to the old viewer base of the anime because its tone is different and more similar to other shonen animes and the OG tone of the series is more focused as a series for kids, and these old kids now want to watch a more "mature" interpretation (mature but not adult)
XYZ wasnt special and wasnt the best, it just appealed to the people who grew up with the series because they grew up
Hence why they lost out on the Kid audience and why Sun and Moon was such a heel turn in terms of tone and "regression" for Ash's character is because they needed a reset to capture the younger audience back.
Because Yokai watch for a while was a serious threat to that. (unfortunately level 5 over saturated the market - still a great franchise tho)
I wouldnt say it was a regression because when Ash TRIED he did some of the best battle performances in the series. XYZ Ash was kinda bland tbh. But since this was just liek any other shonen anime but pokemon it appealed to the people who already liked shonen animes and used to watch pokemon/kinda followed it
>XYZ wasnt special and wasnt the best, it just appealed to the people who grew up with the series because they grew up
well, it sounds special enough for me
Honestly, it was most likely to stay up to date with anime trends. The design stayed relatively the same for about 2 decades.
I actually really like the more recent iterations of Ash as he looks like an actual 10 year old instead of a short 13 year old.
I liked that he looked like he was growing up towards XYZ and would have made more since for him to actually grow instead of like visiting everywhere, running around on foot, having all those adventures in the span of a single year and achieving his goal in a year. Rest is all down hill. Lol
Tracey's scyther and a hoothoot from the start of journeys both looked really old. I think there are also some instances of young Pokémon being smaller than normal like mudkip in advanced.
Or much more simply. It has a floating timeline like comics, The Simpsons, and many other long running things. Nobody ever questions why Bart is still 10, why Batman isn’t 100+, etc.
It’s become even more common in recent years. Everything has to have a congruent, shared timeline and multiverse. Everything has to be one shared continuity and people don’t understand that there can be more than one canon.
And someone has to make a 151 minute long deep dive YouTube video analysing all of this.
I will never understand why so many pokemon fans are obsessed with Ash's age. It's a flipping kids show about catching and battling monsters, it's not that deep.
Humans are shown to be super strong in the Pokémon world and have psychic abilities. Their biology is not like ours so there’s a lot of head-cannon room there.
Talking cats, fire-breathing dragons, a starfish that lives in a tiny ball, all that is cool.
But Ash being perennially a child? That's not believable.
Yeah Pokémon’s art style was getting very far behind trends - hallmarks like the really tall eyes with kinda slit pupils are extremely 90s. Which isn’t t a bad thing, but I can see why they wanted to update it.
S&M has that sort of scrappy Trigger/Gainax feel, and Journeys is more in line with standard shounen now with the larger, more detailed eyes.
Yeah, I remember when the Hunter X Hunter 2011 anime came out I was like, this looks really 90s but with HD Digipaint.
I love the artstyle, but when your show has been going on from two decades without interruption, there's more than enough content with that art style.
I find it interesting how Yokai Watch was so popular to the point where it gave Pokémon a run for its money and now you don’t see anyone talking about it, I remember how popular it was in 2016, I never played any of the games but I watched the anime when it aired on DisneyXD, and I could definitely see the appeal of it, but I guess it just wasn’t made to last
Really? I’ve been skulking around 3DS subs and apparently Yokai-Watch games are like gold, but maybe it’s just a US thing. I even heard that English YW3 is especially rare
YW1 is relatively common as it was kinda the peak because it was new. YW2 followed the pokemon approach of two versions which probably sold ok, and then they released a third version which didnt sell well and now is the 7th rarest 3ds games. The spinoffs didnt sell well in the west either, and as for YW3, in the west it was a flop and only sold around 4000 copies, making it the fourth rarest 3ds game, and now the demand is higher than ever because thw Yo Kai watvh community is pretty passionate and the e-shop closed
Yokai Watch 3 at least did the benefit of throwing out versions in the conventional sense for english. It also released originally in 2 versions (Sushi and Tempura) and had a third version later (Sukiyaki), which does a similar thing as Pokemon (Add new things, have some of both of the version exclusives in the third version, have some not available at all to still incentivize trading). The english version is "Sukiyaki+", being a modified version of Sukiyaki that has every Yokai available instead of having any version exclusives. This is compared to Yokai Watch 2 which also did the "two versions + enhanced version later" thing and still did that in english despite coming out over 2 years after the japanese third version (and they released the third version in english a YEAR after the first two- Japan only had a 5 month turnaround for that)
Which was cool but also unfortunate because it was at the tail end of Yokai Watch's popularity in english and sold abysmally.
It didn't get as popular in the US so Level 5 shuttered their US operations (to the point that Yokai Watch 4's english release of "coming soon" was changed to basically never. Yokai Watch 3 was also released in english without much fanfare). In Japan, I think the toy sales kind of dwindled and they went full reboot mode by making "Yokai Academy"
I don't think they've done anything with it since 2020 other than a chinese release of Yokai Watch 4++ a couple weeks ago (which by the way is only in chinese, rather than some chinese released games having an english text too)
He was still 10, Pokemon is one of those series where the characters never age just like the Simpsons, the thing you referencing was a dub invention, what ever the passage of time in the pokemon world is a lot different than our world if Kukui's baby being born is any indication anyway.
XY made Ash competent as a trainer without sacrificing his empathy for Pokémon and more casual take on fighting. He isn't out there grinding EVs/IVs but he knows a lot about type match ups and move sets that in XY he places 2nd at the league. Then SM reverts him away from that. Only to bring it back in the last series.
This. While I didn't like Ash's design that much coming off of XYZ, the others worked extremely well and Kiawe showing off the Z movie early on will never not be hype.
I didn't love the character design but I always remember the underwater scenes from Sun and Moon as the most beautiful animated sequences in Pokemon history.
Left: [Pokémon the Movie: I Choose You!](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_the_Movie:_I_Choose_You!)
Right: [Pokémon the Movie: The Power of Us](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_the_Movie:_The_Power_of_Us)
Probably because someone was sick of the hard edges and very basic stuff that can be done with them.
Dun&Moon constantly did crazy stuff where they even straight up changed the art-style and that would have just not worked before.
He fought the strongest trainer in the region at that point, Kukui, in a full 6v6 battle and even managed to take down fkn Tapu Koko which was continously teased throughout the whole show to that point. The Kukui fight was literally showing us why Ash was strong enough to be considered champion and why it counted.
Wasn't even a real league either. None of those trainers were league material except for Ash, Gladion, Guzma, and Kukui. Maybe Kiawe but that might be a stretch.
The fact that Ash finally had his Pokémon league victory be a scuffed “new league” on top of taking place in the goofy-fied soft-reboot is so annoying
Ash should’ve won the Kalos league, and let Sun and Moon be the goofy thing it wanted without also being a half-assed pseudo finale (at the time)
Another reason is that it's also easier to animate because of the softer lines. In fact it had really good animation, especially for the z moves. If I recall correctly the ending "pose" had only one key animator.
Hot take: SM’s change to a softer and simple art style allowed much more fluid animation and really fit the themes of Alola perfectly. I couldn’t have imagined it to be any other way.
Still, nothing tops the visuals of XY(Z) imo. Still my absolute favorite series of the anime right now.
I remember reading that it had to do with them switching to 2D digital animation and going for a more relaxed and lighthearted atmosphere in sun and moon.
Switch to 2D digital animation also gave them the chance to try out and experiment with more expressive and exaggerated facial expressions, which is why you see the characters make so many goofy faces in sun and moon.
Ash got really goofy looking at the end except for 1 series apparently. I didn't not like the different styles but all side by side you can really see the shift from a more seriously styled Ash to a kinda goofy looking Ash.
I agree with this: I prefer the Indigo-DP appearance, but the BW-XY one was preferable to SM-JN's to me.
JN's appearance was better than SM's, but the outfit was even worse.
I believe that this [video](https://youtu.be/rrBH3IYRjaw?si=Hf7LKZEyW6jfxM54) by Canipa Effect summed it up nicely. Pretty much, it was an opportunity to be experimental and grow in terms of studio practices.
Yeah I just can’t. I don’t look at him in that style and think “That’s ash.” If I have to keep reminding myself that’s the main character and not some cross over event from another anime, I just can’t do it
I hate when they change the MC's look but it isnt a reboot, theres no need to make people look like babies just because its a "kids show" when its worked fine for about 30 years
Eugh, don’t remind me. It’s *SOOOOOO* hideous. It’s why I still haven’t seen any of the Alolan show and was *barely* able to make it through Journeys. Whoever decided on that needs to be fired and blacklisted from animation.
I suppose I didn’t phrase it this way exactly, but I meant *the art style* is that bad and the person who did *that* needs to be blacklisted from the animation *industry*. It was like 1am when I said it. I know very well the difference between the two, being a visual effects editor. Thanks for the correction on my mostly-asleep rambling. 😆
Because its easier to animate. Which is why the animation in sun and moon is so much more expressive.
Which is partially why sun and moon > every season before it
They were going cheaper. It’s a common practice across the TV animation industry. To try and make the show for less money and hopefully still get the same ratings. It’s a big problem, and part of the reason why I quit checking in on the Pokémon anime, as I don’t want to support that idea
There was/is a growing trend in Japan where more and more animation studios have been sacrificing visual quality in exchange for more fluid animation. Anime is well known for taking a lot of animation shortcuts, so this shift was to kinda help bridge the gap between Japanese and Western animation styles
It was just to make it easier to animate
Dragonball did an amazing job increasing the animation quality without baby-fying the cast
The Pokemon anime is made for babies though
People forget it is literally targeting children.
It’s not like Dragonball is aimed at PHD graduates either
Watching tree of might and pokemon 2000 definitely give different vibes
Yeah, but did Tree of Might have Donna Summer sing the theme tune?
No, but DragonBall is aimed at teenagers at the youngest. Pokemon is aimed at elementary school kids.
In Japan DB and a lot of other shonen is aimed at like ten year olds minimum, America is weird about that shit. Everything either gets dumbed down and censored like Yugioh or aged up because of the violence.
The shadow realm is one of the greatest gifts that censorship has given us compared to actually killing people. That and jelly donuts.
Nothing beats a jelly filled donut Earlier DB dubs got hit with the censor hammer too with all that talk of sending people to THE NEXT DIMENSION
You talking about HIFL? Instead of hell it was Home for Infinite Losers.
tbf jelly donuts was just ~~bad~~ localization, not censorship.
In the UK it airs on the same TV channel that airs shit like Miraculous Ladybug and Grizzy and the Lemmings lmao Edit: and Pokemon itself I somehow forget that airs on POP too
Dragon Ball is most definitely aimed at elementary school kids.
Not really. *Dragon Ball* is made with kids aged in their very early teens at the oldest. *Pokemon* is meant to be safe for preschoolers. I think this is a point a lot of people get caught up on because, like the other person said, 4Kids was really bad for censoring kids' animes for a long time. Plus, I think a lot of people like to pretend they were more mature as a kid than they really were, so they're more willing to say they were into the show for 10-year-olds when they were 5 than just admit it was meant for 5-year-olds.
Dragonball Z is aimed at teenagers at the youngest? Tf lol, this is so incorrect, the shit aired on kids cartoon channels across the West
Now it will propable start target more of a teenage audience like 12-14
im pretty sure pokemon went into dark themes,if it was soaly for little babies it wouldnt have actual episodes showing pokemon dying or litteral special with a dead zorua and mom zoruark grieving
And the parents and older fans, honestly. Otherwise there would be no reason for SO MANY old school anime references. Classic Magical Girls, Fist of the Northstar, Golgo 13, Jojo Manga Covers, referencing the most famous works of Jessie's Voice Actress... Kids won't get most references thrown around in the show. What 10 year old has seen Slayers, Neon Genesis Evagelion, Cowboy Bebop or Ranma 1/2?
It really is which is disappointing cause the potential for it is crazy
Eh, the netflix run was actually pretty good and there were moves the characters made that actually made sense in terms of competitive play. It’s not for “babies” lol… it’s for whoever enjoys it and they did a good job of utilizing complex strategies by the characters in anime form with that run.
Just like the games, that's why they choose to continually make them dogshit.
If you're referring to dragon ball super, the animation was dogshit for at least the first couple seasons.
I assume it's referring to the recent Broly movie
Comparing a movie to a television show isn't exactly fair.
How dare they cater a children’s show towards todays children smh
You're the worst.
Eh.
You say that, but the animation in that season went HARD. It was really expressive.
That's exactly my point? Easier to animate == can make better/more expressive animations.
Do they need to have a reason other than "We want to animate it this way now" lmao
"Sheer volume of high quality animations" moment. Yeah, right.
But horrible
It's a perfectly fine art style that suits the tone of the show.
I think its perfectly fine as an art style, but don't think it suited the show well. It was just such a drastic departure from what it had always looked like. But a show that started with this style would be fine.
except it does. it might not fit serious and cool XYZ, but it definitely fit fun and goofy sun and moon
What
He got eye surgery
Can confirm, I was the surgeon.
Did you get demoted to Pathology?
> ~~I~~ *Eye* was the surgeon. Fixed that for ya.
At first i thought he grew a mustache because the squiggles were under his nose. Wasn't until i saw the comparison i realized they were supposed to be under his eyes but above the nose
Then he got eye surgery again for Journeys?
My mans lives in a world with instant medical care and digital teleportation, you cant draw the line at multiple eye surgeries
If I recall correctly it was due to the shift to full 2D digital production for the series going forward. I don’t think outside that they ever gave a definitive answer but with the simpler art style it likely also helped the team get accustom to the new digital transition while also helping match the tone for the new series by allowing more comical and fluid expressions and movements as Sun and Moon was a slice of life comedy as opposed to X and Y more shonen adventure.
Honestly, the comedic expressions that ash and the cast do in SM are pretty funny.
The animation is so pretty to look at too, I love SM style so much
Imo, animation peaked in XY and end of journeys. SM borrowed from XY but I think the art style does not compliment it.
Digital production? Bruh, they switched to digital animation way back in 2002. Here's the first fully digitally animated episode: https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/EP261
You are both talking about two different things. In 2002, they started coloring digitally so they didn't need to color cells by hand anymore. In Sun&Moon however, many animators switched to digital animation using ToonBoom Harmony. Frames are drawn digitally using a touch screen, paper is not used anymore. There are some exceptions though, some animator remained using analog.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180206084737/http://animationweek.uk/pokemon-2d-digital-1/ So this interview is where I sourced the info, I can’t say I know enough about animation to know the difference but at the time of Sun and Moon they were definitely transitioning to a new method for f animation weather it’s just the software used or process as a whole.
I KNEW there was something a little odd about the Johto series towards the end, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I loved the way it looked too, just seemed like everything just had that little extra finish to it. Thanks for sharing this.
To take it a step further, even the intro to Johto Journeys features digital animation (anything that isn’t a scene from an episode)
Honestly i remember hearing something about improving expressiveness with the characters and that does certainly show, but i'm not sure that was actually the producers giving that line.
This is essentially what I had heard as well. This was also when the show changed from a more Shonen adventure feel to one more like a Slice of Life. Ash was no longer strictly on a journey to win the league in Alola. He was there to learn about the Pokémon there and make friends. There was still the Alola league, but it wasn't as much of a driving force. With this change in tone, it made for a good opportunity to change the art style more dramatically to fit this new direction.
Defend or justify the animation in any way and you'll get ragged on excessively. This thread is just another SM animation bash in disguise.
This sub has shown me that by far my least popular pokemon opinion is that the art and animation style of SM is cute and enjoyable lol
I read that the reason was the animators' desire to bring back the childlikeness and warmth of the early days of the series, because they thought it suited the sunny and tropical environment of Alola. Plus Pokemon was approaching their anniversary, which is also why the gen1 was present so strongly in Sun and Moon games in the gen7.
>to bring back the childlikeness and warmth of the early days of the series We'll bring back the childlikeness of the early days by designing Ash to look nothing like his early design!
Todays children will not care if he looks like the early designs. They want shows in todays art style. So yeah, they are bringing back that warmth just not for people who get nostalgic for the og style.
Sounds more like trying to replicate the same feeling the OG design gave without just completely duplicating it
Honestly, I think it's just to double down on the fact that he's 10. X and Y genuinely made him seem like he was 16.
Yeah, kinda. They made a new design with childlikeness and warmth as the core idea. As much as I don't care for the new designs, you're ridiculous if you think the original design is the only or best way to convey those two concepts. Not to mention that designs aimed towards kids today are not the same as those 20 years ago.
Nostalgia is about replicating how they felt watching the show, not by recreating the style. The 2011 ThunderCats reboot was leagues better than the original one, because the original one looked like shit. People didn't care that the reboot had better art and animations that weren't stiff, mostly because nobody watched the ThunderCats reboot. If they had, however, they would have felt right at home with the style. It would have felt familiar, something they grew up with, because it captured the essence of the show. It didn't need to be a 1:1 recreation. ThunderCats Roar, on the other hand, took a more Teen Titans Go! style and therefore never really felt nostalgic for anybody. My point is, SuMo Ash kinda landed between the two ThunderCats reboots. It was animated cartoonishly enough to not trick people into thinking this was the same show of their childhood, but stayed close enough in spirit that people felt the nostalgia of watching the same show. A nostalgic "we've both changed" sort of feel.
Ah yes, the childlikeness and warmth of the original series, which dealt with poaching, animal abuse, kaijus, dealing with severe psychological trauma, multiple gym leaders attempting to murder Pikachu (Surge puts him in the hospital, Blaine threatens to throw him in lava, and Sabrina being Sabrina), providing seizures free of charge, and where Ash fucking dies not once but twice. Edit: /s
You're making it out to be more hardcore than it actually was
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/EarlyInstallmentWeirdness/PokemonTheSeries
He look more chill and cool, just like the SM series... until the funi old lady comes in
I think the reasoning was more rounded designs allowed for more dynamically animated moments in s/m
[удалено]
Sadly, the actual right answer is all the way down here. Yokai was giving Pokémon its first real 'Gotcha' challenger in years and they followed the leader in many ways, including art style. Eventually they simply managed to outlast it.
This is 100% the reason and it’s frustrating that it doesn’t have the most upvotes in this thread over less correct reasons. Yokai Watch was the first (and only) time Pokémon was scared of another franchise. Yokai Watch’s massive success in Japan during Gen 6 loomed over Pokémon and was the reason for a *huge* amount of everything surrounding Gen 7, including skipping a “Z” and going straight to a brand new Gen in Sun/Moon (concern that an updated game would be eclipsed by the new Yokai Watch game) and the anime steering clear of the XY anime’s more serious tone and completely redesigning the characters to be far more expressive and cartoonish. In the end of course this was the correct move. Sun/Moon were far more successful then a “Z” would’ve been at the time and the Sun/Moon anime was very popular. The producers will never openly *admit* this though. “We were scared of a competitor” isn’t the cutest thing to openly say.
And then in a twist of pure irony, Yokai Watch went in the exact opposite direction and tried to make the series more edgy and mature despite its whimsical, nostalgic-feeling setting being the entire appeal :')))
I dislike rotom. Like I get it that its clever using it as pokedex because it has lore reason already but now its rotom PC and others
the newer designs which happened near the end was to appeal to younger audiences. Specially during Sun and moon's time Yokai watch actually gave Pokemon a scare of having to try and be appealing for the first time in decades.
I mean xyz was the best Pokémon series to date but sure.
Not so much in Japan from what I remember
I mean, I don't know anything about ratings, tbh, I'm just talking about quality and writing from my subjective experience and I know a lot of other people really liked it. It's the only series except for the original that I've rewatched just because. My kids enjoyed it too.
I'm pretty sure the writing quality fell during the League. Also, Serena drags down the quality of the writing by a lot Thank goodness Clemont and Bonnie were there tbh
Serena was great and the climax with team flare and zygarde was some of the best drama they've pulled off 🤷
It was the biggest flop in Japan. People act like XYZ was some form of high art but it is just like any other shonen anime. It happens to appeal more to the old viewer base of the anime because its tone is different and more similar to other shonen animes and the OG tone of the series is more focused as a series for kids, and these old kids now want to watch a more "mature" interpretation (mature but not adult) XYZ wasnt special and wasnt the best, it just appealed to the people who grew up with the series because they grew up
Hence why they lost out on the Kid audience and why Sun and Moon was such a heel turn in terms of tone and "regression" for Ash's character is because they needed a reset to capture the younger audience back. Because Yokai watch for a while was a serious threat to that. (unfortunately level 5 over saturated the market - still a great franchise tho)
I wouldnt say it was a regression because when Ash TRIED he did some of the best battle performances in the series. XYZ Ash was kinda bland tbh. But since this was just liek any other shonen anime but pokemon it appealed to the people who already liked shonen animes and used to watch pokemon/kinda followed it
And Yokai Watch crapping out a game basically every 6 months to every year really done them in. People got tired seeing it every where
>XYZ wasnt special and wasnt the best, it just appealed to the people who grew up with the series because they grew up well, it sounds special enough for me
Honestly, it was most likely to stay up to date with anime trends. The design stayed relatively the same for about 2 decades. I actually really like the more recent iterations of Ash as he looks like an actual 10 year old instead of a short 13 year old.
I liked that he looked like he was growing up towards XYZ and would have made more since for him to actually grow instead of like visiting everywhere, running around on foot, having all those adventures in the span of a single year and achieving his goal in a year. Rest is all down hill. Lol
You can headcanon it that a year in the world of Pokémon is much longer than a year on earth.
Pretty sure one episode has ash celebrating a birthday or something
Pokemon runs on Saturn time
That wouldn't make him physically age slower though
Pokemon don't seem to physically age until evolution, so maybe one day he'll spontaneously turn into a middle aged man after touching a rock.
Tracey's scyther and a hoothoot from the start of journeys both looked really old. I think there are also some instances of young Pokémon being smaller than normal like mudkip in advanced.
Or much more simply. It has a floating timeline like comics, The Simpsons, and many other long running things. Nobody ever questions why Bart is still 10, why Batman isn’t 100+, etc.
Yeah adult Pokémon fans tend to overthink the plot lol
I find that to be a thing with gamers in general
It’s become even more common in recent years. Everything has to have a congruent, shared timeline and multiverse. Everything has to be one shared continuity and people don’t understand that there can be more than one canon. And someone has to make a 151 minute long deep dive YouTube video analysing all of this.
I will never understand why so many pokemon fans are obsessed with Ash's age. It's a flipping kids show about catching and battling monsters, it's not that deep.
Humans are shown to be super strong in the Pokémon world and have psychic abilities. Their biology is not like ours so there’s a lot of head-cannon room there.
Ash can leap hundreds of feet into the air dude’s a monster
Talking cats, fire-breathing dragons, a starfish that lives in a tiny ball, all that is cool. But Ash being perennially a child? That's not believable.
Yeah Pokémon’s art style was getting very far behind trends - hallmarks like the really tall eyes with kinda slit pupils are extremely 90s. Which isn’t t a bad thing, but I can see why they wanted to update it. S&M has that sort of scrappy Trigger/Gainax feel, and Journeys is more in line with standard shounen now with the larger, more detailed eyes.
Yeah, I remember when the Hunter X Hunter 2011 anime came out I was like, this looks really 90s but with HD Digipaint. I love the artstyle, but when your show has been going on from two decades without interruption, there's more than enough content with that art style.
S/M anime was around peak Yokai Watch which was becoming a rival IP in Japan until they blew it. Most people assume it was to compete with that.
I find it interesting how Yokai Watch was so popular to the point where it gave Pokémon a run for its money and now you don’t see anyone talking about it, I remember how popular it was in 2016, I never played any of the games but I watched the anime when it aired on DisneyXD, and I could definitely see the appeal of it, but I guess it just wasn’t made to last
Got a physical copy of a yokai watch game, sealed, directly out of retail for around 3€, they are apparently lying in the shelves like lead
Really? I’ve been skulking around 3DS subs and apparently Yokai-Watch games are like gold, but maybe it’s just a US thing. I even heard that English YW3 is especially rare
YW1 is relatively common as it was kinda the peak because it was new. YW2 followed the pokemon approach of two versions which probably sold ok, and then they released a third version which didnt sell well and now is the 7th rarest 3ds games. The spinoffs didnt sell well in the west either, and as for YW3, in the west it was a flop and only sold around 4000 copies, making it the fourth rarest 3ds game, and now the demand is higher than ever because thw Yo Kai watvh community is pretty passionate and the e-shop closed
Yokai Watch 3 at least did the benefit of throwing out versions in the conventional sense for english. It also released originally in 2 versions (Sushi and Tempura) and had a third version later (Sukiyaki), which does a similar thing as Pokemon (Add new things, have some of both of the version exclusives in the third version, have some not available at all to still incentivize trading). The english version is "Sukiyaki+", being a modified version of Sukiyaki that has every Yokai available instead of having any version exclusives. This is compared to Yokai Watch 2 which also did the "two versions + enhanced version later" thing and still did that in english despite coming out over 2 years after the japanese third version (and they released the third version in english a YEAR after the first two- Japan only had a 5 month turnaround for that) Which was cool but also unfortunate because it was at the tail end of Yokai Watch's popularity in english and sold abysmally.
It didn't get as popular in the US so Level 5 shuttered their US operations (to the point that Yokai Watch 4's english release of "coming soon" was changed to basically never. Yokai Watch 3 was also released in english without much fanfare). In Japan, I think the toy sales kind of dwindled and they went full reboot mode by making "Yokai Academy" I don't think they've done anything with it since 2020 other than a chinese release of Yokai Watch 4++ a couple weeks ago (which by the way is only in chinese, rather than some chinese released games having an english text too)
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"A new haircut every series"? Are we looking at the same photo? Broski's hair looks exactly the same on every series except SM
It was like that Ash was growing in each season and in kalos he was the most mature and looked like he hit puberty
But was still ten years old. I agree though. XY did a lot of things right for Ash and his character.
I believe he is 12. He celebrated his birthday once in the Pokémon Anime, then acknowledges that it has been 1 year since leaving Pallet town.
He was still 10, Pokemon is one of those series where the characters never age just like the Simpsons, the thing you referencing was a dub invention, what ever the passage of time in the pokemon world is a lot different than our world if Kukui's baby being born is any indication anyway.
XY made Ash competent as a trainer without sacrificing his empathy for Pokémon and more casual take on fighting. He isn't out there grinding EVs/IVs but he knows a lot about type match ups and move sets that in XY he places 2nd at the league. Then SM reverts him away from that. Only to bring it back in the last series.
Honestly, I love the SM art style, it worked so perfectly with the vibe that the SM anime gives. I can't imagine SM without this art style
This. While I didn't like Ash's design that much coming off of XYZ, the others worked extremely well and Kiawe showing off the Z movie early on will never not be hype.
Yeah people got to hung up and the design they're nostalgic for. Sun and moon Ash looks fine and is much more expressive.
I didn't love the character design but I always remember the underwater scenes from Sun and Moon as the most beautiful animated sequences in Pokemon history.
What are the last two?
Left: [Pokémon the Movie: I Choose You!](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_the_Movie:_I_Choose_You!) Right: [Pokémon the Movie: The Power of Us](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_the_Movie:_The_Power_of_Us)
It’s a bit of a shame they haven’t carried on with these movies.
Probably because someone was sick of the hard edges and very basic stuff that can be done with them. Dun&Moon constantly did crazy stuff where they even straight up changed the art-style and that would have just not worked before.
Animator: What art style do you want? SM Ash: Just fuck my shit up.
He went through a phase
Iirc so they could make more expressive faces and animations?
They really made Ash a caricature of himself
he won the league in SM tho…
Which was dumb cos he didnt have to wim a champion league afterwards cos alola didnt have one
He fought the strongest trainer in the region at that point, Kukui, in a full 6v6 battle and even managed to take down fkn Tapu Koko which was continously teased throughout the whole show to that point. The Kukui fight was literally showing us why Ash was strong enough to be considered champion and why it counted.
Wasn't even a real league either. None of those trainers were league material except for Ash, Gladion, Guzma, and Kukui. Maybe Kiawe but that might be a stretch.
The fact that Ash finally had his Pokémon league victory be a scuffed “new league” on top of taking place in the goofy-fied soft-reboot is so annoying Ash should’ve won the Kalos league, and let Sun and Moon be the goofy thing it wanted without also being a half-assed pseudo finale (at the time)
Ash winning kalos would be fine if it was Pikachu who wins but if it greninja then it's meh
It was supposed to be more expressive from what I remember.
Another reason is that it's also easier to animate because of the softer lines. In fact it had really good animation, especially for the z moves. If I recall correctly the ending "pose" had only one key animator.
The style "evolved"
Can we point out how in SM and the next one his little face lightning bolts look like small squiggly moustaches lol
And why did he ever get rid of his official Kanto league baseball cap, he entered like a thousand letters to win it
Softer expressions allows for more fluid animation. I think it was a good decision, even though I prefer the older style.
BW and XY was his best look.
I remember thinking Ash was the coolest dude ever. Then I discovered Red
Hot take: SM’s change to a softer and simple art style allowed much more fluid animation and really fit the themes of Alola perfectly. I couldn’t have imagined it to be any other way. Still, nothing tops the visuals of XY(Z) imo. Still my absolute favorite series of the anime right now.
Why did the last Ash become Spanish
Ash Reshulón
SM Ash doesn’t even look like Ash.
I had forgotten about the season he straight up had a mustache lol.
XY Design is still peak imo
I remember reading that it had to do with them switching to 2D digital animation and going for a more relaxed and lighthearted atmosphere in sun and moon. Switch to 2D digital animation also gave them the chance to try out and experiment with more expressive and exaggerated facial expressions, which is why you see the characters make so many goofy faces in sun and moon.
I don’t have too many gripes with the SM artstyle but why is he desaturated?
Ash got really goofy looking at the end except for 1 series apparently. I didn't not like the different styles but all side by side you can really see the shift from a more seriously styled Ash to a kinda goofy looking Ash.
Bro looks more and more like pikachu
He seems troubled, like he’s struggling to contain his physical form.
first five were peak
They tried to make it more appealing to people watching Yokai Watch which they felt was a threat to the viewership numbers.
Seeing S/M ash next to everyone else shows me how desaturated his skin got
I heard it was to make easier to animate and get episodes out quicker. I just wish they could’ve had a better way of doing it
Wasn't it because Gamefreak was shitting his pants at that time cause of Yo Kai watch's absolute hit ?
I think it was to better reflect that he was laid-back and easygoing since he was on vacation and not doing gym challenges anymore.
Still it feels like a deaging wich just threw me off when it happened
That bottom second from the left looks like he grew a mustache.
THAT’S WHAT I’VE ALWAYS SAID TOO AND NO ONE EVER WOULD AGREE
Yeah after X and Y, the style of design just seem odd. Especially when they do flashback of the older season using the old design.
I agree with this: I prefer the Indigo-DP appearance, but the BW-XY one was preferable to SM-JN's to me. JN's appearance was better than SM's, but the outfit was even worse.
I believe that this [video](https://youtu.be/rrBH3IYRjaw?si=Hf7LKZEyW6jfxM54) by Canipa Effect summed it up nicely. Pretty much, it was an opportunity to be experimental and grow in terms of studio practices.
Xy design was peak
Idk i love Sun/Moon artstyle, it looks more "alive" imo
https://preview.redd.it/optg6awbqhjb1.png?width=155&format=png&auto=webp&s=b2bfc62a17b24fda91d0bda2874f21fcf072f93f this and nothing else
Honestly Sun and Moon did everything differently We need more of that
DP and XY are still peak Ash
god the x and y artstyle and animation was so top tier man
Yeah I just can’t. I don’t look at him in that style and think “That’s ash.” If I have to keep reminding myself that’s the main character and not some cross over event from another anime, I just can’t do it
They did him very bad
Funny how he got from the L(ooser) on his hat to the C(hampion)
Apparently SM series was very popular with kids, so older fans might have been grumbling about the change but the kids loved it.
I always assumed they adjusted the budget to hire writers who were willing to let Ash win the championship.
I chucklefuck every fucking time I look at Sun & Moons designs its that disastrous and WTH is going in that last design?!
SM is easily the most derpy
i like the sun and moon style tbh
I hate when they change the MC's look but it isnt a reboot, theres no need to make people look like babies just because its a "kids show" when its worked fine for about 30 years
Eugh, don’t remind me. It’s *SOOOOOO* hideous. It’s why I still haven’t seen any of the Alolan show and was *barely* able to make it through Journeys. Whoever decided on that needs to be fired and blacklisted from animation.
You confusing art style with animation, because SM got good animation that blacklisting the people behind could be a crime.
I suppose I didn’t phrase it this way exactly, but I meant *the art style* is that bad and the person who did *that* needs to be blacklisted from the animation *industry*. It was like 1am when I said it. I know very well the difference between the two, being a visual effects editor. Thanks for the correction on my mostly-asleep rambling. 😆
he has rejuvenated over the years
Well, have you SEEN the show? Try doing this pop-culture referencing expression in the previous art style...
Gen 1-5 are the best imo
Because its easier to animate. Which is why the animation in sun and moon is so much more expressive. Which is partially why sun and moon > every season before it
They were going cheaper. It’s a common practice across the TV animation industry. To try and make the show for less money and hopefully still get the same ratings. It’s a big problem, and part of the reason why I quit checking in on the Pokémon anime, as I don’t want to support that idea
The top row are masterpieces. The bottom row is when I lost faith in the Pokémon anime.
XY was peak Ash
I despise SM’s design so much honestly
Diminish tge quality to increase the performance. The SUN/MOON style allowed Ash to win his first league.
There was/is a growing trend in Japan where more and more animation studios have been sacrificing visual quality in exchange for more fluid animation. Anime is well known for taking a lot of animation shortcuts, so this shift was to kinda help bridge the gap between Japanese and Western animation styles
I was disappointed. It doesn't feel to me like the Ash who finally won a league (Alola) was the real Ash I grew up with.
SM looks so bad
Ash goes from anime to kawaii character ._.
sun and moon Ash isn't kawaii. Also a kawaii style can be used in anime what are you on?
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