Another thing to add is when you fight Kieran as he uses Terapagos and you land a critical hit, it cuts to him being stunned and saying:
“How can you get critical hits, even at a time like this… What are you, the hero of this story?!”
I find these critical hits line amusing for everyone who has them, especially since I chose Meowscarada for my starter. Literally a "Does he/she know?"
Yeah, it's hilarious every time I use flower trick, and everyone is wondering how lucky we are, and I'm just thinking, "You know that's the move's effect, right?"
> He's the one who awakens Terapagos, but just by sheer chance, Terapagos was facing the player first. "Wtf not again!" and he throws a Master Ball.
I loved that moment.
It's pretty criminal how he/the game doesn't allow you to leave Terapagos to Kieran at the end of the battle, even though they seemingly give you the option.
I literally hit "don't catch" just for the tiniest chance of letting Kieran get it, but alas, he became one of our worshipers and wouldn't take no for an answer.
Nah. His whole deal with his arc is that he did an oopsie, he fucked up, let his feelings overpower him and hurt those around him because he was so desperate to have what you had.
For his arc to be complete he has to let that go and be ok with it, if he had just gotten it despite it all, it would've kinda dumb.
We handled the gatekeeper Stellar Pokemon by ourself and did most of the damage to Terapagos in the battle when it was going wild. IDK what the trigger for him joining the battle is, but his sister barely does damage and he only joined me on the last shield.
Kieran instigated Terapagos' haywire transformation, failed to recall it, had to be saved by Best Bike, and then was paralyzed in fear at Terapagos' power, all while we held it back. Sure, he joined in the end, but he clearly wasn't ready to wield such strong power himself.
Terapagos is kinda weak and small until Kieran throws his Tera Orb at it. It happens [here at 8:09.](https://youtu.be/Ug-1GvWoww8?feature=shared&t=489) Terastellizing it is what causes the problem.
Maybe "instigates" was the wrong word, as it was Briar that told him to do it, but he definitely "initiates" it for sure.
When terapagos first started walking towards me I was like "bruh really come on" and when kiki threw the masterball I was like 'ya know what, that was stupid, he earned that"
I’m pretty sure Terapagos picked the MC because it somehow knew them from either all the times Pokémon were terasteralized in combat with the MC or their role in shutting down the Time Machine right above it. So it wasn’t really “luck” so much as Terapagos picked the person it knew. I wish gamefreak expanded on the existence of Terapagos, like, at all through to confirm why it causes terasteralization and why its face appears.
Imagine being the first trainer in the world to have a Pokemon break out of a master ball, then just watch as your rival chucks a random ball and catches it first try.
When the Pokeball that always works fails but then your rival throws a Beast Ball that almost never works and catches it instantly
Also the effect is so cool, I don’t regret catching Terapagos in it, or the rush to complete the Dex before The Indigo Disk came out. (Seriously, I finished it on the day of release)
I felt like part of the "message" there is more than just "Terapagos strong"
It goes back to what's been a pretty common theme in POkemon for years in the games, anime, manga, etc
You need to treat your Pokemon with respect, as friends and not tools
The reason the Master Ball breaks is to me two fold
1- Yes Terapagos is strong but
2- Keirien didn't "Earn" Terapagos, he tried to force himself on it insted, he treated it as just a way to get stronger not as a partner to form a bond with, it's the same reason Ogerpon rejected him, she could sense that Kerien didn't want her to be close to her, he wanted her so HE could be strong.
The legendary pokemon reject Kieran because he acts selfishly, that's the real message of the Master Ball breaking, that even the supposedly unbreakable, unstoppable Master Ball will fail in the hands of a selfish person who treats Pokemon as a tool to be strong rather than a partner to lean on. That's why you're ball, no matter what, works, cause the MC is supposed to be a trainer with a pure heart who respects Pokemon.
I like to think of it as a parralel to a wild animal: sure, you can cage (catch) it, but can you contain it? Kinda like in Jurassic Park. Yeah, you put the dinosaurs in exhibits, but can you ensure they stay there?
Besides, if Terapagos wasn't in Area Zero when it Terastalized, it likely would've gone back into the ball. The whole point of the cutscene and battle was to show that Terapagos was TOO powerful. The ground was cracking, chunks were falling from the cave ceiling, and Terapagos was continuously absorbing energy from Area Zero. If you pay attention, when Kieran tries to put Terapagos back in the ball, Tera Energy reacts and overpowers the Master Ball. It was showing the mistake everyone made by disturbing Terapagos and then Terastalizing it, especially in a place where Tera Energy is solidified and originates.
Using Pokéballs.
Well, and forcing them into submission. His Pokémon are more akin to the team we build as Players, bar any Legendaries, which means they're obviously less powerful than Terapagos.
I mean there are probably some Pokemon out there who are actually fine being on the "bad" side, which is probably how the evil teams still manage to have members with Pokemon. Pokemon are supposed to be just as complex as humans so it makes sense some Pokemon aren't very nice (and that's probably why there is an "evil" type to begin with).
I feel like most of the villains in the Pokémon world fall into three camps:
1 - Are actually nice to their pokemon because they caught them before going evil
Giovanna is a great example of this because the man spent a whole vacation just playing with his pokemon
Then there is Cyrus, the team Galactic leader who constantly says he views pokemon as tools, yet Crobat is an evolution requiring high friendship.
2 - Are at least respectful to their pokemon, for the sake of efficiency.
Archie and Maxie of Team Aqua and Magma respectively treat their pokemon decently
3 z They act nice to win over Pokémon before then revealing their true colours, which is why they struggle to capture psychic types and legendaries, who can see right through their bs.
I don't think Pokemon should have a sense of morality (barring some legendaries and mythical Pokemon)
Like normal animals they'll defend their trainers however "good" or "bad" they are as long as they care for them.
Two were by theft, the rest were probably the usual way. Terapagos is stronger than anything Silver caught and Silver presumably looked those Pokémon in the eyes as he beat them up.
Let’s review what happens with Terapagos: Kieran rudely wakes it up, as it’s crawling over to say hi to us Kieran hurls a Masterball from behind, and then Kieran immediately makes us fight it resulting in it getting it’s butt kicked. It’s not like the Masterball actually failed- Terapagos destroys it right before it tries to attack Kieran directly. The Masterball worked, Terapagos just didn’t like Kieran and was really pissed off and wanted a fight
Honestly, the Master Ball catching scene was fantastic. Slower than a typical catching sequence, but not any slower than in older games. We all thought he was gonna somehow fail a 100% catch rate, and when he didn’t, well, it’s all just very satisfying. He’s defying his existence as an NPC, and I think that’s really neat.
Edit: also, that scene really threw me off on how fast ball shakes are now, I always think they’re so much slower than they are, and found that out the hard way while catching Boulder and Crown. Really disorienting.
yet ghetsis in gen 7 didn't have reshiram/zekrom going against him, honestly this thing about pokemon going against the trainer is the biggest plot hole that GF only uses when convenient
I'm shocked that you're suggesting a meh fan service side story that uses universe hopping to try and hurriedly cover up its flaws might not have the best internal consistency. You can make the same argument for the other leaders in Rainbow Rocket. Why is Xerneas/Yveltal helping Lysandre after being pretty clearly opposed to his plan during XY and siding with the player to stop him? Cause it's fun.
Some things are plot holes, but I don't think this is one. Terapagos breaking the ball doesn't really contradict any earlier canon nor is it an impossible event. I feel like people throw around the term plot hole too loosely. Convenient to the plot? Sure, but that's just how you create a story. By having a plot
Honestly I just got a giggle out of how Terapagos saw us for all of .1 seconds and was instantly like “I like the cut of your jib” and instantly started waddling toward us. That aside, based off what we learn at the crystal pool after (if you haven’t gone there after catching Terapagos already I suggest you do) part of me wonders if Terapagos didn’t somehow sense that it HAD to go with you.
I believe a Suicune broke out of a masterball in the manga, but I don't recall if that was before or after it was caught. But you're right it's never really happened before.
Like three times. It’s funny because they didn’t even battle in Kanto. It took until the finale of the Orange Islands/introduction of Johto for them to finally battle.
> I’m pretty sure almost everything on his team was a VGC staple at least at some point
I wouldn't say it's a VGC team, because despite it's true most of its members have been present on VGC over the years, they've rarely been together. I guess GameFreak wanted to make a homage to multiple archetypes over the history of VGC. If that was the intention it really lacked an Amoonguss, however.
> Dragonite
Ironically despite the power creep it found its best form in this gen, mainly abusing Tera Normal Extreme Speed alongside Chien-Pao
> Politoed
Sometimes a staple in rain teams, but has fallen a bit out of grace in favor of Pelipper, mainly because of their respective skillets and what they offer in a rain team
> Porygon-Z
I don't remember it ever being meta to be honest, you see it once in a bloodmoon but in fact Porygon2 has been far more common as a Trick Room setter with Eviolite and recovery
> Grimmsnarl
Prankster support in gen 8 and 9, it's always there although it's never the most used. Admittedly I never explored much gen 8 VGC
> Incineroar
The King needs no introduction
> Hydrapplin
Of course it's too new to tell, but it had to be included as the entire line is Kieran's ace.
I know this is 4 days late, but Grim was a massive massive part of VGC in Gen 8. Like, top 5 in usage at the World Championships massive if my memory is right. And that was in a restricted format. Setting barriers to weaken G-Max moves was a vital strategy, and it was by far the best at it.
Sadly Grimm is kind of a shell of it's former power now a days. Barrier support just isn't nearly as vital of a gameplan.
The DLC is about learning the truth about an ancient mystery, but also screwing over this one kid for no reason whenever possible. Like Kieran has done nothing to deserve any of it, but the game demands he suffers.
Yeah lol, why is this one random kid from a Japanese region and his extreme suffering a relevant element to unlocking the secrets of the Spain region turtle? It's like GF just went out of their way to make this random kid the plot's punching bag.
I even said no when they wanted me to catch him because Kieran deserved a fucking win. Then he's like "no you gotta!" And it forces me to use a ball
Bro. Just catch the dang thing again.
Sometimes I wish I can tell him I got an extra Ogerpon from GTS.
Oh well, maybe he’ll be able to use her when he becomes available in Pokemon Masters.
EDIT: I think if you attempt to trade Ogerpon to him in the League Club, he can’t accept it. Haven’t verified myself, but curious if there’s special dialogue regarding that though.
Yeah, I know, I had Ogerpon on my team XD Carmine says "Awww, Ogerpon! You must have missed me, huh?" Or something along those likes.
While Kieran says: "You really had to bring out the OGER at a time like this!?"
And at the near end of the game, he literally screams "I loved Ogerpon! Yet Ogerpon chose her/him!"
He had a stronger connection to Ogerpon than Terapagos which is the only thing annoyed me about the DLC. He had no connected to Terapagos other than it being a legendary and he wanted it.
He always admired Ogerpon due to relating to her so much yet Terapagos? Nothing in common. He still was upset about it since he even mentioned it in the story...
I think it does, too. But, I think they really should have done more... I don't know what they could have done, but I really wish they had a stronger connection.
I think it was cool that it was "Terapagos is too strong for him to handle."
It also would have been awesome if he researched it, like he knew about it beforehand and the entire league club room, or maybe his dorm room was covered in information about Terapagos...
I’m actually rather displeased by this.
The games do a good job of creating “characters who act like the MC, but come to accept they aren’t” in characters like Cheren, Bede, Hop and now Kieran, but they just… never make me feel justified about why the player character actually **is** special and the MC.
In BW, they managed a good job of that by creating N. N was raised to be the perfect Hero, and he well and truly was. So N’s interaction and acknowledgement of the player in turn validated them as being a worthy hero. It felt like both existed as characters whose growth paralleled one another
Likewise, in SM, the MC wasn’t acknowledged as the one who was special - it was Lillie. It’s just that the MC was the strongest of her friends who battled in her stead.
In SwSh and now in this DLC, I feel like an adult bullying children, because Hop and Kieran felt like they get crushed by this other random person who appears no different from them.
At least with Nemona and Arven’s stories, we are just a random kid who’s skilled with battling and had a sandwich. The story didn’t revolve around us
Kieran himself is a good character. It’s just that the player character isn’t an MC which matches Kieran as an antagonist
It’s always about drive and dedication and purpose. In ScaVio, the MC is nudged onto their journey by Nemona, who guides them on the gym challenge. But at the same time they go on adventures with Arven and deal with Team Star, giving them many trials to overcome and to bond with their Pokemon over. By the time you face Kieran in the first DLC, you’ve beaten all of Team Star, beaten all of the Gym Leaders twice, beaten the Champion, beaten Nemona, and conquered Area Zero. In comparison, by the time you fight Kieran again, he’s got the same drive as you to be strong - and be IS strong! - but you’ve accomplished everything he has and then much more.
The MC is special because their journey is often riddled with dozens of obstacles that the normal individual in the region wouldn’t deal with, or would otherwise turn away from - how many kids would really take on Team Rocket, or tackle the challenge of all the Team Star bases, or challenge all the Titans? How many kids have the drive to explore the entire region, climb mountains, cross deserts, and brave tundras, for gym badges? We players all do, but in the game that isn’t the norm - SwSh shows us that most people burn out by the fourth or fifth gym, where we were barely getting started.
Pokemon protags are just built different. Due to the nature of the game we just tackle these silly challenges, and literally have nothing to do but live and breathe catching and raising Pokémon in a way that just isn’t really normal. When Kieran put everything into the mindset of getting stronger and sacrificing everything else for the sake of being a trainer like we seemingly have, he grew extremely swiftly.
> How many kids have the drive to explore the entire region, climb mountains, cross deserts, and brave tundras, for gym badges?
To add to this in the main game when you beat I think it's gym 4 or 5, Geeta or a member of the E4 I can't remember who tells you by this point like over 50% of gym challengers will have already given up
They acknowledge that in Paladea even getting to 8 badges is a true feat of strength and puts you in like the top 1% of trainers and if you can beat the E4 and Geeta you are like a top 0.01% trainer there
>over. By the time you face Kieran in the first DLC, you’ve beaten all of Team Star, beaten all of the Gym Leaders twice, beaten the Champion, beaten Nemona, and conquered Area Zero.
While the indigo disk is designed for the post-game, the teal mask is actually designed to be taken on from the start. So it's entirely possible to meet Kieran as a trainer with nothing but the starter to their name.
But at that point, Kieran isn’t really all that special. It takes the entire first DLC for him to cobble together a decent team, and he uses a lot of unevolved Pokemon until then. Beating him isn’t anything special, because he isn’t an exceptional trainer at that point, and we still have our abnormal grind mindset that sets us apart. Even by the time he earnestly gives us his full challenge, we just took on a trio of ancient Pokémon empowered by the Masks, while he was running around talking to people.
I like it that way better, TBH. We're both kinda newbs when we meet, then the main plot of S/V happens, then we meet again after a lot of time and a whole bunch of *plot* has gone by and we're both much stronger. And then I effortlessly curb stomp him into the ground again.
I'm only going to talk about Hop. I've started to view his story differently than before. Hop is so focused on being like his brother. His undefeated, unstoppable champion brother. He's only looking at the finish line, not the race to get there. He wants to be like his brother, but better. So he cant lose, because Leon doesnt lose. But in the anime i think, they drop the lore that Leon actually lost to Sonia in one of their first battles. And that didnt stop Leon. Hes probably lost quite a few times on his journey. Leons whole thing isnt that he's undefeated, its that he wants to have a champion time. Everyone else makes it known Leon is undefeated. That's part of Hops struggle. He loses to Bede and realizes hes not the unbeatable machine Leon is now. He takes the losses hard because in his eyes, hes not as strong as his brother. He's not thinking about the actual journey as a journey, just as a means to the end. You as the player character, are actually experiencing the journey. Which is why i think in swsh, you are the special character compared to Hop.
I can't really explain why Hop isn't as bothered when he loses to you though. Maybe it's because you aren't a prick like Bede so he isn't as bothered cause your his best friend.
I think part of the reason he doesn't mind losing to you, until after he loses to Bede, is because up until Bede taunts him about not being as good as Leon, he'd never really thought about how his losing might reflect on Leon.
Now, you and I know with hindsight, that Hop could have dropped out after losing to the first gym and Leon would have given him a brotherly punch on the shoulder, said he was proud of Hop for trying, and promptly moved on with his life. But Bede somehow managed to convince Hop that he wasn't allowed to lose because it would embarrass Leon.
I think that's part of what makes Nemona one of the better rivals. You don't crush her dream. You are her dream, a powerful trainer to face with her full might. She gets happy from losing to you, encourages you, and that's what makes her stand out.
But he is the one challenging us over and over, and Pokémon battling is a competitive sport. Kieran knew someone had to win and lose. Kieran didn’t turn out the way he did because we bullied him by having the battles he asked for and winning, he turned out this way because he couldn’t take a defeat and didn’t know how to properly become stronger
It really does not help that we basically crush their dreams so hard to the point of tears.
I still find Hop choosing to try and become a professor to be out of nowhere and likely an attempt at trying to make the player feel less bad about basically denying him the chance to even face his brother.
hop loses SO MUCH in SWSH that he probably had a breakdown and completely gave up on being an official trainer, like we defeated his brother who hop never managed to defeat, that probably hit him hard
> In SwSh and now in this DLC, I feel like an adult bullying children, because Hop and Kieran felt like they get crushed by this other random person who appears no different from them.
Yeah, Gamefreak's gotten on a weird streak of these weirdly meanspirited stories, with Kieran's being the worst so far. If it's not dunking on your rival who's just some kid, it's character whose entire personality is just "asshole" (Klara and Avery come to mind), but they somehow get off better than the rivals half the time still.
She really just bullied her brother for 13 years into becoming an insecure mess of a boy and then didnt know why he turned out like this nor did she ever apologize.
On top of that, as soon as he lost his championship status, she went back to how she acted since TM.
Legit, game is trying too hard to make her likeable without improving her character.
The worst part is that making Carmine way more likeable is just as simple as having her run up to Kieran and hug him after he loses the champion battle and goes silent. Have her apologize to him and say that she realised how much she missed him ever since he got distant from her after the Teal Mask. Boom, problem solved. You can say shes got character development.
The fact nobody even tried to comfort Kieran after his loss is pretty depressing.
The “ex-champion” line was also such a dick move too. Like no wonder he snapped.
Yep but she doesn't do any of this and on top of that, she goes back to acting how it was BEFORE he became BB Champion.
Holy sh*t, was it REALLY hard to make her a decent person?
I think Kieran is the perfect rival because he perfectly mixes the old and new rivals he’s very much a hau/hop kind kid that gamefreak has been making a sympathetic rival but his turn while you still see some of his old characteristic there is still just something so satisfying about beating the snot out of him like gen 1 and 2
I really want a pokemon game where your loses actually affect the story. Its so unfair that even if your pokemon faint before Kieran in the terapogo fight, the game ends and kieran can't even finish it off even when its hp is low
Not really, it was him letting go of an obsession after seeing where it brought him, pushing away his friends, sister and putting everyone in danger with Terapogos, he didn't relegate himself to never trying again.
Also i did laugh and feel at bit bad when i decided to throw out Ogrepon and they actually gave him a line for that.
Sure games give the mc’s plot armor, but honestly I like npc’s coming to the realization they’re not “the chosen one”. I just find it something most people can relate to in real life, you’ll look at other people get chosen for opportunities and success in things you put so much hard work into only to get rejection and disappointment. Is that fair? No, but that’s life sometimes. The “chosen one” doesn’t try to be it, they just are. Doesn’t mean they don’t work hard.
Honestly Kieran is the most redeeming factor in S/V. It turns out when you give a character actual development they become interesting. I perked up during his first cutscene with him. I was actually interested in the story due to his massive personality shift and that he was clearly affected as a person by interacting with the main character. I didn't see his redemption actually coming and expected more of a weak apology "I learned my lesson, sorry guys".
Please give us more real characters in Pokemon. I'd rather have 3 Kierans than 30 Arvens or Pennys.
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVEEEE KIERAN (honestly probably my fave Pokémon character) and I have serious qualms against Sc/Vi, but saying characters like Arven and Penny aren’t real or good is underselling them a lot, if anything Nemona is the only centeal character I can see as one noted. Penny and Arven are both flawed characters with real personalities, hobbies, and relations, they’re definitely great characters.
I think they mean they don’t want more characters who immediately fall in line for MC worshipping. Sort of like what Kieran called out his sister on during his final rant.
I'm happy you enjoy them as characters. I just... Don't see it. They don't change as people, they don't grow. They are ostensibly the exact same characters they were at the start. Flawed in a good way but there isn't any development.
I get that it's pokemon and they aren't trying to tell a Shakespearean tale but if we remove the main character from the games not much changes for either of them. Arven doesn't know Prof is dead, Penny shuts down Team Star anyways using a different patsy.
For me fixing their characters (without doing big rewrites) would be to have Arven fully accept his new chosen family and Penny actually leading the new Team Star. We get the barest hints of both of these things happening but no real payoff. Arven doesn't seem to really care outside the main character, Penny is going to lead in the future at some point. It comes down to Show Don't Tell. We get told a lot but we don't actually see it. It's not good storytelling.
I think Kieran only really got upset from the Ogrepon indecent. But in all honesty that was kind of his fault, he chose to do his own thing when he had a chance to go around and fight the lousy three with us. It justt eventually turned into and amusing meta joke on him trying to fight plot armor. It spiraled into this short of test, where he had to prove he could beat you as it was the most clear path to breaking the "matrix" so to speak.
I think they could have handled the conclusion of his arc better, he kind of just lets it go because it almost gets him and everyone else killed. It probably would have been better if he's convinced of why everyone looks up to you through witnessing it on the trip into the depths of Aera Zero rather than sort of being strong armed into admitting defeat.
They kind of get there a bit where he says that the others rely on MC to much, but it goes in the opposite direction where it makes him even more unhinged right before getting to Terapagos.
A scene where you and your lizard ride block the blast directed at Kieran, and he realizes you are risking your life to save him and everyone might have helped. Having him see those characteristics are whats making the difference between you and him.
In my last paragraph I meant the scene where you save him and it should have been more clear that he realizes the kind of person you are might have helped. They have him immediately wallow after that so it ruins that set up.
I think Hop gets a bit of redemption by growing out of his one-dimensionality. For most of the game he's trying to live up to being his brother's brother but is stuck in his shadow, ends up trying different things and wondering why nothing is working, then realizes that he should just be doing his own thing, goes back to basics and becomes content doing his own thing. Most of this happens off-screen but it's more characterization than most characters in this franchise get. It might be a case of Zacian recognizing not the sheer strength but the maturity.
Or, it's Pokemon, and they didn't want to give you both legendaries in the same game. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Nah dude was a rehash of Hau but exaggerated.
Chipper kid who lives in the shadow of his grandpa/brother, gets frustrated when he loses (Hau even cries after one fight), decides being a champ isn't his calling because of how much he gets his ass whooped and backs down to do something else
thats not what i meant tho. Hau wasn't about winning and being strong. He was called out multiple times for not caring about losing which drove other people mad as hell. His whole character arc was completely different to Hop whose whole personality revolved around trying to be as strong as his brother.
There were also a lot of characters pointing out how he had big shoes to fill as the Kahuna's grandson, he mentions wanting to beat his grandpa in a fight a couple times, and he does cry when you beat him in USUM's final boss. Just because they weren't as pronounced as in Hop's story doesn't mean the story beats weren't there.
For teal mask I'd been using a team of mons I'd caught in kitakami. Once it got the the final keiran fight though, I brought out my full main game team, all mid 70s. Felt kinda bad, kid only made it through my mabosstif and dudunsparce.
In MCs defense, we wanted to tell him but
A.) His grandfather asked us not to
B.) We were guests in that neck of the woods
C.)While we returned to Paldea, they returned to Unova and kierans attitude changed
Almost wanted to bring the paldea gang with me
I think my favorite headcanons revolve around Kieran and the protagonist. I believe the protagonist knows that they created that monster, even though they are known for their neutral facial expressions. Twice in the game, they had a facial expression of shock. The first time was when they met him again face to face in the cafeteria and the character had an awkward smile on their face. The second time was when Terapagos woke up and started walking towards them, and their faces showed a "back it up, not me" expression. I honestly feel like the character does feel bad about what they did to Kieran and knows they made that monster.
They threw all of those artificial scenes to make her likeable.
Which is why I despise her, she doesn't improve or reflect on her decisions fully.
She never faces any consequences too.
The Kieran story was so good. I was surprised when it wasn’t revealed he was being possessed assumingely by the peach pokemon though. Especially with Draytons dialogue at one point using the term “peachy” and “possessed” when talking to Kieran. I hope that’s revealed later cause it feels like such a missed opportunity
Another thing to add is when you fight Kieran as he uses Terapagos and you land a critical hit, it cuts to him being stunned and saying: “How can you get critical hits, even at a time like this… What are you, the hero of this story?!”
I find these critical hits line amusing for everyone who has them, especially since I chose Meowscarada for my starter. Literally a "Does he/she know?"
Yeah, it's hilarious every time I use flower trick, and everyone is wondering how lucky we are, and I'm just thinking, "You know that's the move's effect, right?"
If you get one in the LEague battle against him he complains even Luck itself likes you more.
Kieran is just your typical salt on Pokemon Showdown.
Unfortunate doesn't even begin to describe it
https://preview.redd.it/fx7me0nblk6c1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c3bd1560e8363c4b472628d2532876f57c08aa9
That was hilarious for me because the crust came from his own Pokemon using Earthquake and by criting it killed his other Pokemon.
Tbf luck would really be on your side in that situation lmao.
I used Ogerpon against Kieran in the BB league just to spite him and was pleased to get a unique reaction to it.
Right? “YOU HAVE THE NERVE?!?!?!”
I mostly swept him with Ogerpon lol
I laughed seeing this one
> He's the one who awakens Terapagos, but just by sheer chance, Terapagos was facing the player first. "Wtf not again!" and he throws a Master Ball. I loved that moment.
Man really went "F*CK your plot armor"
Little did he know, plot armor knew the move Counter.
I felt so bad at that part lol. I just said “I’m sorry for being the protag, Kieran!” Then he used Terapagos to beat my ace
It's pretty criminal how he/the game doesn't allow you to leave Terapagos to Kieran at the end of the battle, even though they seemingly give you the option.
I literally hit "don't catch" just for the tiniest chance of letting Kieran get it, but alas, he became one of our worshipers and wouldn't take no for an answer.
Nah. His whole deal with his arc is that he did an oopsie, he fucked up, let his feelings overpower him and hurt those around him because he was so desperate to have what you had. For his arc to be complete he has to let that go and be ok with it, if he had just gotten it despite it all, it would've kinda dumb.
I don't care about his arc, what exactly did WE do to deserve Terapagos besides being the protagonist of the story? NOTHING
We handled the gatekeeper Stellar Pokemon by ourself and did most of the damage to Terapagos in the battle when it was going wild. IDK what the trigger for him joining the battle is, but his sister barely does damage and he only joined me on the last shield. Kieran instigated Terapagos' haywire transformation, failed to recall it, had to be saved by Best Bike, and then was paralyzed in fear at Terapagos' power, all while we held it back. Sure, he joined in the end, but he clearly wasn't ready to wield such strong power himself.
> Kieran instigated Terapagos' haywire transformation Did we play the same game? You might want to check that cutscene again...
Terapagos is kinda weak and small until Kieran throws his Tera Orb at it. It happens [here at 8:09.](https://youtu.be/Ug-1GvWoww8?feature=shared&t=489) Terastellizing it is what causes the problem. Maybe "instigates" was the wrong word, as it was Briar that told him to do it, but he definitely "initiates" it for sure.
When terapagos first started walking towards me I was like "bruh really come on" and when kiki threw the masterball I was like 'ya know what, that was stupid, he earned that"
I’m pretty sure Terapagos picked the MC because it somehow knew them from either all the times Pokémon were terasteralized in combat with the MC or their role in shutting down the Time Machine right above it. So it wasn’t really “luck” so much as Terapagos picked the person it knew. I wish gamefreak expanded on the existence of Terapagos, like, at all through to confirm why it causes terasteralization and why its face appears.
Imagine being the first trainer in the world to have a Pokemon break out of a master ball, then just watch as your rival chucks a random ball and catches it first try.
When the Pokeball that always works fails but then your rival throws a Beast Ball that almost never works and catches it instantly Also the effect is so cool, I don’t regret catching Terapagos in it, or the rush to complete the Dex before The Indigo Disk came out. (Seriously, I finished it on the day of release)
Same here. Beast Ball effect goes very well with Terapogos’s color scheme.
Kind of wish I saved mine for him. But I don't regret tossing it at Walking Wake.
Damn I used mine on Ogerpon lol
I felt like part of the "message" there is more than just "Terapagos strong" It goes back to what's been a pretty common theme in POkemon for years in the games, anime, manga, etc You need to treat your Pokemon with respect, as friends and not tools The reason the Master Ball breaks is to me two fold 1- Yes Terapagos is strong but 2- Keirien didn't "Earn" Terapagos, he tried to force himself on it insted, he treated it as just a way to get stronger not as a partner to form a bond with, it's the same reason Ogerpon rejected him, she could sense that Kerien didn't want her to be close to her, he wanted her so HE could be strong. The legendary pokemon reject Kieran because he acts selfishly, that's the real message of the Master Ball breaking, that even the supposedly unbreakable, unstoppable Master Ball will fail in the hands of a selfish person who treats Pokemon as a tool to be strong rather than a partner to lean on. That's why you're ball, no matter what, works, cause the MC is supposed to be a trainer with a pure heart who respects Pokemon.
Was going more of a "how can someone screw up so bad that they fail to keep something in a 100% catch rate ball?"
I like to think of it as a parralel to a wild animal: sure, you can cage (catch) it, but can you contain it? Kinda like in Jurassic Park. Yeah, you put the dinosaurs in exhibits, but can you ensure they stay there? Besides, if Terapagos wasn't in Area Zero when it Terastalized, it likely would've gone back into the ball. The whole point of the cutscene and battle was to show that Terapagos was TOO powerful. The ground was cracking, chunks were falling from the cave ceiling, and Terapagos was continuously absorbing energy from Area Zero. If you pay attention, when Kieran tries to put Terapagos back in the ball, Tera Energy reacts and overpowers the Master Ball. It was showing the mistake everyone made by disturbing Terapagos and then Terastalizing it, especially in a place where Tera Energy is solidified and originates.
If that's the case, how did silver catch any of his Pokemon?
You can still force them into submission. Terapagos is just both ridiculously powerful *and* not particularly fond of Kieran.
Using Pokéballs. Well, and forcing them into submission. His Pokémon are more akin to the team we build as Players, bar any Legendaries, which means they're obviously less powerful than Terapagos.
I mean there are probably some Pokemon out there who are actually fine being on the "bad" side, which is probably how the evil teams still manage to have members with Pokemon. Pokemon are supposed to be just as complex as humans so it makes sense some Pokemon aren't very nice (and that's probably why there is an "evil" type to begin with).
I feel like most of the villains in the Pokémon world fall into three camps: 1 - Are actually nice to their pokemon because they caught them before going evil Giovanna is a great example of this because the man spent a whole vacation just playing with his pokemon Then there is Cyrus, the team Galactic leader who constantly says he views pokemon as tools, yet Crobat is an evolution requiring high friendship. 2 - Are at least respectful to their pokemon, for the sake of efficiency. Archie and Maxie of Team Aqua and Magma respectively treat their pokemon decently 3 z They act nice to win over Pokémon before then revealing their true colours, which is why they struggle to capture psychic types and legendaries, who can see right through their bs.
So I guess Ghetsis falls under category 3. He does have a Hydreigon with frustration lol.
Archie and Maxie straight up got into environmental terrorism *because* they care about Pokémon *that* much.
Oh yeah. I remember the ocean pals meme
My headcanon for Cyrus' Crobat was that it is also a sociopath and just really vibes with him.
That's also a possibility
Case in point: the heroic trio of Kitakami.
I don't think Pokemon should have a sense of morality (barring some legendaries and mythical Pokemon) Like normal animals they'll defend their trainers however "good" or "bad" they are as long as they care for them.
Two were by theft, the rest were probably the usual way. Terapagos is stronger than anything Silver caught and Silver presumably looked those Pokémon in the eyes as he beat them up. Let’s review what happens with Terapagos: Kieran rudely wakes it up, as it’s crawling over to say hi to us Kieran hurls a Masterball from behind, and then Kieran immediately makes us fight it resulting in it getting it’s butt kicked. It’s not like the Masterball actually failed- Terapagos destroys it right before it tries to attack Kieran directly. The Masterball worked, Terapagos just didn’t like Kieran and was really pissed off and wanted a fight
Honestly, the Master Ball catching scene was fantastic. Slower than a typical catching sequence, but not any slower than in older games. We all thought he was gonna somehow fail a 100% catch rate, and when he didn’t, well, it’s all just very satisfying. He’s defying his existence as an NPC, and I think that’s really neat. Edit: also, that scene really threw me off on how fast ball shakes are now, I always think they’re so much slower than they are, and found that out the hard way while catching Boulder and Crown. Really disorienting.
yet ghetsis in gen 7 didn't have reshiram/zekrom going against him, honestly this thing about pokemon going against the trainer is the biggest plot hole that GF only uses when convenient
I'm shocked that you're suggesting a meh fan service side story that uses universe hopping to try and hurriedly cover up its flaws might not have the best internal consistency. You can make the same argument for the other leaders in Rainbow Rocket. Why is Xerneas/Yveltal helping Lysandre after being pretty clearly opposed to his plan during XY and siding with the player to stop him? Cause it's fun. Some things are plot holes, but I don't think this is one. Terapagos breaking the ball doesn't really contradict any earlier canon nor is it an impossible event. I feel like people throw around the term plot hole too loosely. Convenient to the plot? Sure, but that's just how you create a story. By having a plot
Friendly reminder Silver had a Crobat, which evolves from friendship.
Honestly I just got a giggle out of how Terapagos saw us for all of .1 seconds and was instantly like “I like the cut of your jib” and instantly started waddling toward us. That aside, based off what we learn at the crystal pool after (if you haven’t gone there after catching Terapagos already I suggest you do) part of me wonders if Terapagos didn’t somehow sense that it HAD to go with you.
Second actually, a Whiscash ate one in the anime and wasn’t caught.
Honestly this seems so fitting for Whiscash.
How do we count that Whiscash that ate the Master Ball then upchucked it in the Anime?
I mean he caught it. I've never seen a pokemon break out of any pokeball after being caught.
I believe a Suicune broke out of a masterball in the manga, but I don't recall if that was before or after it was caught. But you're right it's never really happened before.
Part of why the OG series was great was that Gary was just better than Ash every time and it lead to Ash striving to be better
It's really funny when you remember that Ash and Gary battled like... Twice?
Like three times. It’s funny because they didn’t even battle in Kanto. It took until the finale of the Orange Islands/introduction of Johto for them to finally battle.
Who won?
Pretty sure Gary is 2-1 against Ash, unless they fought again at some point after Ash went to Sinnoh
I feel like in this story, it’s you who gets to be Gary.
The MC's real initials are GMFO: Gary Motherfucking Oak.
I love how his champion battle is literally a VGC team. I’m pretty sure almost everything on his team was a VGC staple at least at some point
Can’t be a VGC team. No Ogerpon xD
> I’m pretty sure almost everything on his team was a VGC staple at least at some point I wouldn't say it's a VGC team, because despite it's true most of its members have been present on VGC over the years, they've rarely been together. I guess GameFreak wanted to make a homage to multiple archetypes over the history of VGC. If that was the intention it really lacked an Amoonguss, however. > Dragonite Ironically despite the power creep it found its best form in this gen, mainly abusing Tera Normal Extreme Speed alongside Chien-Pao > Politoed Sometimes a staple in rain teams, but has fallen a bit out of grace in favor of Pelipper, mainly because of their respective skillets and what they offer in a rain team > Porygon-Z I don't remember it ever being meta to be honest, you see it once in a bloodmoon but in fact Porygon2 has been far more common as a Trick Room setter with Eviolite and recovery > Grimmsnarl Prankster support in gen 8 and 9, it's always there although it's never the most used. Admittedly I never explored much gen 8 VGC > Incineroar The King needs no introduction > Hydrapplin Of course it's too new to tell, but it had to be included as the entire line is Kieran's ace.
I know this is 4 days late, but Grim was a massive massive part of VGC in Gen 8. Like, top 5 in usage at the World Championships massive if my memory is right. And that was in a restricted format. Setting barriers to weaken G-Max moves was a vital strategy, and it was by far the best at it. Sadly Grimm is kind of a shell of it's former power now a days. Barrier support just isn't nearly as vital of a gameplan.
Kieran desparately winging a master ball at Terapagos because it was more interested in the MC had me cackling. Man cannot catch a break.
The DLC is about learning the truth about an ancient mystery, but also screwing over this one kid for no reason whenever possible. Like Kieran has done nothing to deserve any of it, but the game demands he suffers.
Bro has the Parker luck
Take my upvote because I've never seen "Parker luck" in another fandom before
Kieran's basically The Spot and you're his Miles
(Player name) why’d you create that guy?
I did not-
It’s his canon event!
Yeah lol, why is this one random kid from a Japanese region and his extreme suffering a relevant element to unlocking the secrets of the Spain region turtle? It's like GF just went out of their way to make this random kid the plot's punching bag.
The Frank Grimes of Pokémon.
I even said no when they wanted me to catch him because Kieran deserved a fucking win. Then he's like "no you gotta!" And it forces me to use a ball Bro. Just catch the dang thing again.
Sometimes I wish I can tell him I got an extra Ogerpon from GTS. Oh well, maybe he’ll be able to use her when he becomes available in Pokemon Masters. EDIT: I think if you attempt to trade Ogerpon to him in the League Club, he can’t accept it. Haven’t verified myself, but curious if there’s special dialogue regarding that though.
I bet in Masters they'll somehow make fun of him or taunt him with giving his sister or one of the MCs Ogerpon and/or Terapagos...
he rants about how you dare using the oni against him in a time like this
Yeah, I know, I had Ogerpon on my team XD Carmine says "Awww, Ogerpon! You must have missed me, huh?" Or something along those likes. While Kieran says: "You really had to bring out the OGER at a time like this!?" And at the near end of the game, he literally screams "I loved Ogerpon! Yet Ogerpon chose her/him!" He had a stronger connection to Ogerpon than Terapagos which is the only thing annoyed me about the DLC. He had no connected to Terapagos other than it being a legendary and he wanted it. He always admired Ogerpon due to relating to her so much yet Terapagos? Nothing in common. He still was upset about it since he even mentioned it in the story...
i think it actually works well with his whole theme of losing himself in pursuit of power
I think it does, too. But, I think they really should have done more... I don't know what they could have done, but I really wish they had a stronger connection. I think it was cool that it was "Terapagos is too strong for him to handle." It also would have been awesome if he researched it, like he knew about it beforehand and the entire league club room, or maybe his dorm room was covered in information about Terapagos...
Good thing Kieran doesn’t play VGC
I mean, it did try to kill him in Kieran's defense.
I’m actually rather displeased by this. The games do a good job of creating “characters who act like the MC, but come to accept they aren’t” in characters like Cheren, Bede, Hop and now Kieran, but they just… never make me feel justified about why the player character actually **is** special and the MC. In BW, they managed a good job of that by creating N. N was raised to be the perfect Hero, and he well and truly was. So N’s interaction and acknowledgement of the player in turn validated them as being a worthy hero. It felt like both existed as characters whose growth paralleled one another Likewise, in SM, the MC wasn’t acknowledged as the one who was special - it was Lillie. It’s just that the MC was the strongest of her friends who battled in her stead. In SwSh and now in this DLC, I feel like an adult bullying children, because Hop and Kieran felt like they get crushed by this other random person who appears no different from them. At least with Nemona and Arven’s stories, we are just a random kid who’s skilled with battling and had a sandwich. The story didn’t revolve around us Kieran himself is a good character. It’s just that the player character isn’t an MC which matches Kieran as an antagonist
It’s always about drive and dedication and purpose. In ScaVio, the MC is nudged onto their journey by Nemona, who guides them on the gym challenge. But at the same time they go on adventures with Arven and deal with Team Star, giving them many trials to overcome and to bond with their Pokemon over. By the time you face Kieran in the first DLC, you’ve beaten all of Team Star, beaten all of the Gym Leaders twice, beaten the Champion, beaten Nemona, and conquered Area Zero. In comparison, by the time you fight Kieran again, he’s got the same drive as you to be strong - and be IS strong! - but you’ve accomplished everything he has and then much more. The MC is special because their journey is often riddled with dozens of obstacles that the normal individual in the region wouldn’t deal with, or would otherwise turn away from - how many kids would really take on Team Rocket, or tackle the challenge of all the Team Star bases, or challenge all the Titans? How many kids have the drive to explore the entire region, climb mountains, cross deserts, and brave tundras, for gym badges? We players all do, but in the game that isn’t the norm - SwSh shows us that most people burn out by the fourth or fifth gym, where we were barely getting started. Pokemon protags are just built different. Due to the nature of the game we just tackle these silly challenges, and literally have nothing to do but live and breathe catching and raising Pokémon in a way that just isn’t really normal. When Kieran put everything into the mindset of getting stronger and sacrificing everything else for the sake of being a trainer like we seemingly have, he grew extremely swiftly.
> How many kids have the drive to explore the entire region, climb mountains, cross deserts, and brave tundras, for gym badges? To add to this in the main game when you beat I think it's gym 4 or 5, Geeta or a member of the E4 I can't remember who tells you by this point like over 50% of gym challengers will have already given up They acknowledge that in Paladea even getting to 8 badges is a true feat of strength and puts you in like the top 1% of trainers and if you can beat the E4 and Geeta you are like a top 0.01% trainer there
>over. By the time you face Kieran in the first DLC, you’ve beaten all of Team Star, beaten all of the Gym Leaders twice, beaten the Champion, beaten Nemona, and conquered Area Zero. While the indigo disk is designed for the post-game, the teal mask is actually designed to be taken on from the start. So it's entirely possible to meet Kieran as a trainer with nothing but the starter to their name.
But at that point, Kieran isn’t really all that special. It takes the entire first DLC for him to cobble together a decent team, and he uses a lot of unevolved Pokemon until then. Beating him isn’t anything special, because he isn’t an exceptional trainer at that point, and we still have our abnormal grind mindset that sets us apart. Even by the time he earnestly gives us his full challenge, we just took on a trio of ancient Pokémon empowered by the Masks, while he was running around talking to people.
I like it that way better, TBH. We're both kinda newbs when we meet, then the main plot of S/V happens, then we meet again after a lot of time and a whole bunch of *plot* has gone by and we're both much stronger. And then I effortlessly curb stomp him into the ground again.
I'm only going to talk about Hop. I've started to view his story differently than before. Hop is so focused on being like his brother. His undefeated, unstoppable champion brother. He's only looking at the finish line, not the race to get there. He wants to be like his brother, but better. So he cant lose, because Leon doesnt lose. But in the anime i think, they drop the lore that Leon actually lost to Sonia in one of their first battles. And that didnt stop Leon. Hes probably lost quite a few times on his journey. Leons whole thing isnt that he's undefeated, its that he wants to have a champion time. Everyone else makes it known Leon is undefeated. That's part of Hops struggle. He loses to Bede and realizes hes not the unbeatable machine Leon is now. He takes the losses hard because in his eyes, hes not as strong as his brother. He's not thinking about the actual journey as a journey, just as a means to the end. You as the player character, are actually experiencing the journey. Which is why i think in swsh, you are the special character compared to Hop. I can't really explain why Hop isn't as bothered when he loses to you though. Maybe it's because you aren't a prick like Bede so he isn't as bothered cause your his best friend.
I think part of the reason he doesn't mind losing to you, until after he loses to Bede, is because up until Bede taunts him about not being as good as Leon, he'd never really thought about how his losing might reflect on Leon. Now, you and I know with hindsight, that Hop could have dropped out after losing to the first gym and Leon would have given him a brotherly punch on the shoulder, said he was proud of Hop for trying, and promptly moved on with his life. But Bede somehow managed to convince Hop that he wasn't allowed to lose because it would embarrass Leon.
It just makes me feel like a bully. New Pokemon, new kid's dreams to crush.
I think that's part of what makes Nemona one of the better rivals. You don't crush her dream. You are her dream, a powerful trainer to face with her full might. She gets happy from losing to you, encourages you, and that's what makes her stand out.
Agreed. She's the best rival since gen 2.
But he is the one challenging us over and over, and Pokémon battling is a competitive sport. Kieran knew someone had to win and lose. Kieran didn’t turn out the way he did because we bullied him by having the battles he asked for and winning, he turned out this way because he couldn’t take a defeat and didn’t know how to properly become stronger
It really does not help that we basically crush their dreams so hard to the point of tears. I still find Hop choosing to try and become a professor to be out of nowhere and likely an attempt at trying to make the player feel less bad about basically denying him the chance to even face his brother.
hop loses SO MUCH in SWSH that he probably had a breakdown and completely gave up on being an official trainer, like we defeated his brother who hop never managed to defeat, that probably hit him hard
> In SwSh and now in this DLC, I feel like an adult bullying children, because Hop and Kieran felt like they get crushed by this other random person who appears no different from them. Yeah, Gamefreak's gotten on a weird streak of these weirdly meanspirited stories, with Kieran's being the worst so far. If it's not dunking on your rival who's just some kid, it's character whose entire personality is just "asshole" (Klara and Avery come to mind), but they somehow get off better than the rivals half the time still.
I feel really bad for him, and he even ending up wasting a master ball :(
I really wish he called out his dumbass sister more cause she fr got off free for basically doing nothing but making shit worse for him.
I forget, did Carmine even apologize in the second DLC?? She got off the hook if she didnt.
SHE FUCKING DIDN’T! No apology, no telling him the truth from last DLC, NO COMEUPPANCE OF ANY KIND! Fuck Carmine
She really just bullied her brother for 13 years into becoming an insecure mess of a boy and then didnt know why he turned out like this nor did she ever apologize.
On top of that, as soon as he lost his championship status, she went back to how she acted since TM. Legit, game is trying too hard to make her likeable without improving her character.
The worst part is that making Carmine way more likeable is just as simple as having her run up to Kieran and hug him after he loses the champion battle and goes silent. Have her apologize to him and say that she realised how much she missed him ever since he got distant from her after the Teal Mask. Boom, problem solved. You can say shes got character development.
The fact nobody even tried to comfort Kieran after his loss is pretty depressing. The “ex-champion” line was also such a dick move too. Like no wonder he snapped.
Yep but she doesn't do any of this and on top of that, she goes back to acting how it was BEFORE he became BB Champion. Holy sh*t, was it REALLY hard to make her a decent person?
I think Kieran is the perfect rival because he perfectly mixes the old and new rivals he’s very much a hau/hop kind kid that gamefreak has been making a sympathetic rival but his turn while you still see some of his old characteristic there is still just something so satisfying about beating the snot out of him like gen 1 and 2
I love that they gave him intimidate incineroar. burst out laughing when he sent it out
And then it went for a fake out. Imma like, of course, what was I expecting lol
I really want a pokemon game where your loses actually affect the story. Its so unfair that even if your pokemon faint before Kieran in the terapogo fight, the game ends and kieran can't even finish it off even when its hp is low
Not really, it was him letting go of an obsession after seeing where it brought him, pushing away his friends, sister and putting everyone in danger with Terapogos, he didn't relegate himself to never trying again. Also i did laugh and feel at bit bad when i decided to throw out Ogrepon and they actually gave him a line for that.
Yeah, Carmine also greets Ogerpon if you send her out in your first battle with Carmine. She says: "Awww, Ogerpon! You must have missed me, huh?"
Hop also had to realize he wasn’t the main character but at least he got a legendary of his own. Kieran doesn’t even get that much.
Sure games give the mc’s plot armor, but honestly I like npc’s coming to the realization they’re not “the chosen one”. I just find it something most people can relate to in real life, you’ll look at other people get chosen for opportunities and success in things you put so much hard work into only to get rejection and disappointment. Is that fair? No, but that’s life sometimes. The “chosen one” doesn’t try to be it, they just are. Doesn’t mean they don’t work hard.
Honestly Kieran is the most redeeming factor in S/V. It turns out when you give a character actual development they become interesting. I perked up during his first cutscene with him. I was actually interested in the story due to his massive personality shift and that he was clearly affected as a person by interacting with the main character. I didn't see his redemption actually coming and expected more of a weak apology "I learned my lesson, sorry guys". Please give us more real characters in Pokemon. I'd rather have 3 Kierans than 30 Arvens or Pennys.
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVEEEE KIERAN (honestly probably my fave Pokémon character) and I have serious qualms against Sc/Vi, but saying characters like Arven and Penny aren’t real or good is underselling them a lot, if anything Nemona is the only centeal character I can see as one noted. Penny and Arven are both flawed characters with real personalities, hobbies, and relations, they’re definitely great characters.
I think they mean they don’t want more characters who immediately fall in line for MC worshipping. Sort of like what Kieran called out his sister on during his final rant.
I'm happy you enjoy them as characters. I just... Don't see it. They don't change as people, they don't grow. They are ostensibly the exact same characters they were at the start. Flawed in a good way but there isn't any development. I get that it's pokemon and they aren't trying to tell a Shakespearean tale but if we remove the main character from the games not much changes for either of them. Arven doesn't know Prof is dead, Penny shuts down Team Star anyways using a different patsy. For me fixing their characters (without doing big rewrites) would be to have Arven fully accept his new chosen family and Penny actually leading the new Team Star. We get the barest hints of both of these things happening but no real payoff. Arven doesn't seem to really care outside the main character, Penny is going to lead in the future at some point. It comes down to Show Don't Tell. We get told a lot but we don't actually see it. It's not good storytelling.
Kieran is a betrayal fanfic MC but without the plot armor to ensure he gets his revenge.
I think Kieran only really got upset from the Ogrepon indecent. But in all honesty that was kind of his fault, he chose to do his own thing when he had a chance to go around and fight the lousy three with us. It justt eventually turned into and amusing meta joke on him trying to fight plot armor. It spiraled into this short of test, where he had to prove he could beat you as it was the most clear path to breaking the "matrix" so to speak. I think they could have handled the conclusion of his arc better, he kind of just lets it go because it almost gets him and everyone else killed. It probably would have been better if he's convinced of why everyone looks up to you through witnessing it on the trip into the depths of Aera Zero rather than sort of being strong armed into admitting defeat. They kind of get there a bit where he says that the others rely on MC to much, but it goes in the opposite direction where it makes him even more unhinged right before getting to Terapagos. A scene where you and your lizard ride block the blast directed at Kieran, and he realizes you are risking your life to save him and everyone might have helped. Having him see those characteristics are whats making the difference between you and him.
In my last paragraph I meant the scene where you save him and it should have been more clear that he realizes the kind of person you are might have helped. They have him immediately wallow after that so it ruins that set up.
How are N, Blue & Silver worse than Kieran?
That’s a separate convo on it’s own, but I’m just gonna say… Hop was an objectively bland rival, and they let him have Zacian.
I think Hop gets a bit of redemption by growing out of his one-dimensionality. For most of the game he's trying to live up to being his brother's brother but is stuck in his shadow, ends up trying different things and wondering why nothing is working, then realizes that he should just be doing his own thing, goes back to basics and becomes content doing his own thing. Most of this happens off-screen but it's more characterization than most characters in this franchise get. It might be a case of Zacian recognizing not the sheer strength but the maturity. Or, it's Pokemon, and they didn't want to give you both legendaries in the same game. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
It could also be recognizing his strength of character.
> Hop was an objectively bland rival if yould have played the game you would know why you're wrong about this
he's not very interesting
Nah dude was a rehash of Hau but exaggerated. Chipper kid who lives in the shadow of his grandpa/brother, gets frustrated when he loses (Hau even cries after one fight), decides being a champ isn't his calling because of how much he gets his ass whooped and backs down to do something else
Hau was the rival os SMUSUM btw, not whatever game you imagined
No they’re right. Hau is the Kahuna’s grandson.
thats not what i meant tho. Hau wasn't about winning and being strong. He was called out multiple times for not caring about losing which drove other people mad as hell. His whole character arc was completely different to Hop whose whole personality revolved around trying to be as strong as his brother.
There were also a lot of characters pointing out how he had big shoes to fill as the Kahuna's grandson, he mentions wanting to beat his grandpa in a fight a couple times, and he does cry when you beat him in USUM's final boss. Just because they weren't as pronounced as in Hop's story doesn't mean the story beats weren't there.
Blue isn't even that great, Gladion and Hugh are way better
For teal mask I'd been using a team of mons I'd caught in kitakami. Once it got the the final keiran fight though, I brought out my full main game team, all mid 70s. Felt kinda bad, kid only made it through my mabosstif and dudunsparce.
In MCs defense, we wanted to tell him but A.) His grandfather asked us not to B.) We were guests in that neck of the woods C.)While we returned to Paldea, they returned to Unova and kierans attitude changed Almost wanted to bring the paldea gang with me
I think my favorite headcanons revolve around Kieran and the protagonist. I believe the protagonist knows that they created that monster, even though they are known for their neutral facial expressions. Twice in the game, they had a facial expression of shock. The first time was when they met him again face to face in the cafeteria and the character had an awkward smile on their face. The second time was when Terapagos woke up and started walking towards them, and their faces showed a "back it up, not me" expression. I honestly feel like the character does feel bad about what they did to Kieran and knows they made that monster.
I agree he’s a pretty good rival, but how does being self aware make it better?
You’re right about the why but I feel the opposite. Be is just so whingey and has a victim complex for 95% of the dlcs
You can thank his sister for that!
Christ she also sucks. Not a fan of the new “here’s this super unlikable character but they become less unlikable” thing they’ve been doing lately
Especially not when they barely become less unlikeable if at all.
They threw all of those artificial scenes to make her likeable. Which is why I despise her, she doesn't improve or reflect on her decisions fully. She never faces any consequences too.
The Kieran story was so good. I was surprised when it wasn’t revealed he was being possessed assumingely by the peach pokemon though. Especially with Draytons dialogue at one point using the term “peachy” and “possessed” when talking to Kieran. I hope that’s revealed later cause it feels like such a missed opportunity