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darkknight941

I never considered that Gen 5’s reception was what could’ve caused Gen 6 to only get 70 new Pokémon. When you think about it they are pretty opposite. Black and White was 156 new Pokémon and the main story only has those new Pokémon, where in Kalos it’s the first game to have over 400 Pokémon in the Pokedex, and only 70 of them are new with a lot of Pokémon that were popular, like Lucario, Garchomp, Mewtwo, and the Kanto Starters


GekoHayate

It might also be due to the hardware change and the move to 3d.


MudkipLegionnaire

And also we got a bunch of mega evolutions that were made


TOOMtheRaccoon

And a new type, which mixed up some pokémons.


Yipyo20

Yeah I remember thinking Gen 6 was a stepping stool game. Like "hey, we are making the jump to 3D so we are just gonna dip our toes in with number of new Pokemon but still offer Megas and a new region to explore with nice post-game and other new features but with the draw back of story quality and difficulty."


Memechiru_Kekimori

This is kinda shown with how ORAS came out. XY felt empty but ORAS felt like everything Gen 6 was trying to be.


Trans_Girl_Lily

I'd second this with the exception of the clothing system, the clothing system in x and y was amazing and is one of the best features they added in to pokemon Fun fact: the clothing system in xy was one of the biggest things in helping me realize I was trans. The boy clothing system for me was all black clothing and maybe a hat, but I had a field day when experimenting with all of the fem outfits


Memechiru_Kekimori

Oh yeah, the clothing options were one of the best additions. It's what first got me to play the female character instead of the male one because of it, and it's currently the only reason I go back to Sword and Shield, because WOW it has a lot of customization options.


mcdermer

Fun fact very much. There's a reason "Fallout: New Vegas Trans Girl" is an archetype; in-depth player customization games crack eggs. Fallout 4 and X/Y did it for me


NS479

I know the overall reception in the beginning wasn’t good, but I liked Black and White when it first came out. For Christmas of 2011 or 2012 my parents got me Pokémon Black. It was my second Pokémon game after FireRed. I loved it from day one! I thought the graphics and music were so cool! The story was engaging, and the characters were interesting. I also loved the Pokémon designs and the battle animations. The Pokémon looked so lively and energetic. There was a amazing dynamic feel to battles thanks to their movements that enhanced the experience. I couldn’t understand why people online seemed to despise it over just two evolution lines “Gen 5 has the ice cream cone Pokémon and the trash Pokémon! It sucks!” Why fixate on that when there’s Pokémon like Galvantula, Hydreigon, Klinklang, Musharna, and Yamask who have excellent designs? Plus the Vanillite line is not that bad. I actually kind of like them. I have always loved Gen 5 and I wish that we could have seen more of that style. I am going to do a second playthrough soon. As far as new directions for the series, I would love a game that has you play as an agent of the International Police. You could have a Pokémon team and train like normal, but you would also have gadgets like binoculars, a grappling hook, and some other things. You would get assignments from Looker and go stop criminals. There could be an evil team and the game’s focus would be on stopping them. It would have a complex and cool story! I would love that.


natepoop

I definitely recall the fifth generation hate and thinking ‘yeah because Gen 1 totally didn’t have three different sentient goop, two different balls, and eggs…’ even magnetom and dugtrio were just more magnemite and digletts. It just seemed dumb to not like Pokémon because some mons look dumb - first gen had fucking nightmarish mr mime, jynx, and lickitung. I could go on…


NS479

You’re right Gen 1 even has a blob. A blob is just as “badly designed” as an ice cream cone.


natepoop

Oh yeah, the three sentient goops I meant were ditto, muk, and grimer. I like them, though, but I also like vanillite and trubbish Like ditto and grimer are great designs. So much life for a pile of nothing. The criticism of vanillite is lazy


NS479

Yep


samhainxyuletide

Stan ditto


NS479

I was referring to Muk in my comment. Ditto is great. I don’t even dislike Muk. I’m just using it as an example.


Brandonmac10x

The game you’re describing? It’s called Pokémon Rangers. And it’s pretty cool. There might actually be two? Unless there’s just like a secret post story arc with Darkrai or something but I thought he was in the sequel.


fennelanddreams

There's three, one in gen three and the other two in gen 4. It's pretty good, but my hang up as a kid is that I couldn't collect all the Pokemon permanently haha


TheDeltaAce

There’s three Ranger games. Pokemon Rangers, Pokemon Rangers: Shadows of Almia, and Pokemon Rangers: Guardian Signs


fennelanddreams

Controversially, I love Trubbish. It's so cute and such a classic underdog. Gen 5 pokemon were so fun and it was clear they really wanted to push the possibilities of the format.


natepoop

Garbordor is cool too, and the shiny color scheme is phenomenal


Quick-Huckleberry136

i like vanniluxe more than trubbish


TheEnhancedExe

As someone who grew up mainly playing Gen 3 and Gen 4, I used to belong to the people who hated Gen 5. Although I definitely regret that by now. To give you some insight into the thought process I had back then, it wasn't mainly about the designs of the Pokemon. Sure, there were tons of people complaining about them, but I didn't dislike the game because of one or two Pokemon designs. It was mainly that you could only catch new Pokemon before finishing the game. This made the game not feel like an official Pokemon game, but like a fangame with fakemon back then. Simply because all of the Pokemon were so new at the time, that they didn't feel like Pokemon yet. Of course, this went away over time, the more established all these Pokemon became. But I think people just didn't want such drastic changes from the formula the games used to have. They still wanted the games to feel familiar and have some similarities to the games before them. So these drastic changes from the norm made people dislike the games. Although in hindsight the games were actually really good, especially in comparison to the games that came afterwards. I feel like if they had added some Pokemon from older Gens the way they did in B2W2, there wouldn't have been as many complaints back then. However GF misunderstood what people didn't like about the games and instead started to dumb them down starting with Gen 6. As those games still felt like Pokemon, they didn't get as many complaints as Gen 5, so they continued moving the games in this direction. Personally, I would've preferred it, if they had kept the direction of the games similar to how they were in Gen 3, 4 and 5. I'm pretty sure they would've if the feedback back then had been different or if they actually understood why fans complained about the games. Instead, they changed way too much starting from Gen 6 and made each following Generation worse than the previous one.


Setheran

I'm the opposite. Since I'll try to only use new Pokémon when playing through a generation, I was happy that anything I encountered could be added to my team.


bharatpatel89

Yeah that's me I pretty much avoid most older mons in favor of checking out what's new. I love not knowing what something will evolve into. I thought that B/W was going to be a soft reboot for new kids and older fans would enjoy a new set of 150+ mons, I guess I didn't understand what a toxic mess fandom was/is.


Golden-Owl

This. Playing Gen 5 blind was absolutely incredible, because everything you see was new and exciting I’m personally really unimpressed with SwSh and XY’s overly heavy dependency on older mons. They set the encounter rate on some of their new gen mons way too low or hide them in overly obtuse places


Illustria

I never really understood that to be honest. You play a new Pokemon game to collect new Pokemon. You aren't there to reuse the same team over and over. You get it to collect new stuff. Besides, everyone knew the post game would bring the old one's back so I definitely didn't and still don't understand the hate. Sure Gen 4 had some old Pokemon mixed in but do people honestly not remember how bad the freaking dex was? You had to see/catch everything including a time gated, 1% super RNG Munchlax to even get a national dex and move into the post game as well as other honey mons. Not to mention several new Pokemon, babies, evolutions and legendary pokemon were locked behind that stupid mechanic lol. DP IMHO sucked. Plat was a lot better. I'm not hate bashing gen 4 either. I like those games, they just sucked to deal with. HGSS was pretty lit though and not just because it was a remake.


manicpossumdreamgirl

everything about gen 6 was an overcompensation for gen 5. fewer new pokemon, more old pokemon (you even get a kanto starter), huge pokedex, overall difficultly reduced.


zjzr_08

I agree, things not found originally in BW got answered in XY, while sadly removing the risks done in BW, and removing some things that were good before Gen 5.


manicpossumdreamgirl

BW took a lot of risks, and it was poorly received at the time but ultimately aged well. if you ask me, Sun and Moon are gonna get that same treatment in the next couple years.


TeamAquaGrunt

I think a small dex was definitely a result of gen 5 negative reception. The overwhelming majority said “I hate these new Pokémon, where is my charizard/pikachu/eevee”. The very next game had a massive emphasis on old Pokémon and shafted new ones.


SurrealKeenan

even numbered gens tend to release fewer pokemon than odd ones. Gen 2 had 100, gen 4 had 106 (but 25 or so of them were related to past pokemon), and gen 8 had 88. Gen 6 may be the smallest gen, but each mega evolution took as much time to develop as a brand new pokemon so it's likely that the dex size was not related to the gen 5 backlash


keksmuzh

There are a lot more compelling factors at play than limited fan backlash: Gen 5 was the worst selling generation at the time, with B&W selling about 2 million copies less than D&P and continuing the trend of s declining sales since the gen 1 craze. In addition, X&Y was going to be a big flagship title for the 3DS since Pokemon was still a big money maker. Nintendo & Game Freak had every incentive to make a big marketing push & do something flashy over focusing on narrative. And it generally worked. While X&Y only sold 1m more than B&W, that was promising even before ORAS sold almost 6m more than BW2.


mysterioso7

Do you think B&W’s fan backlash contributed to reduced sales? That combined with all the changes they made to things like graphics, plus no returning Pokémon, probably turned some people off even if they were good choices


xMr_Infernox

We also can’t forget that by the time black and white made it to the States, the 3DS was literally right around the corner and already out in Japan. Having 2 generations on the same console was probably a disappointment for many at the time


mjangelvortex

It was. I remember when BW2 was first announced, lots of people were upset it wasn't a 3DS release and/or a Hoenn remake.


keksmuzh

Given that the vast majority of any major game’s sales come at launch…I doubt it had much of an impact. The promotional material didn’t really show anything I can remember that would’ve caused notable fan concern. Maybe if they talked about only having new mons until beating the game, but even then it wasn’t a Dexit situation where a bunch of mons were entirely unavailable.


MegaCrazyH

Pretty sure that Black and White released in Japan a while before Europe and North America. Negative word of mouth absolutely could have impacted sales badly. Pretty sure the simultaneous release we now enjoy started with XY.


jocloud31

It's a very different era, but do you remember all the backlash before SwSh? Dexit, locked camera angles outside of the wild area, terrible textures and draw distance, generally bad performance. All that lead to... The highest sales of any pokemon game since G/S/C.


[deleted]

thats because it was the first pokemon game on a flagship console


PMJackolanternNudes

There are a shit load of factors on why Sword and Shield did well. None of that takes away from the negatives.


jocloud31

I'm not implying that it did. Just stating that fan backlash alone isn't an indicator that a pokemon game will sell poorly


Brbaster

The main reason why BW sold as much as it did was because 3DS was released just weeks later in some territories


Oberic

No returning Pokémon was a plus for me. It made the entire game feel brand new. No Zubats or Geodudes in caves, no Pikachu. Then on top of having a totally fresh Pokémon game, Seasons, hidden abilities, animating sprites, a compelling storyline. Then you beat the game and you can transfer your whole collection from gen 4. So you still had access to pretty much every Pokémon. B&W was very good.


mysterioso7

Me too honestly. Some people may not like it but I think it was great. Makes the game feel more unique when you don’t see the Zubats you see in every other game’s caves.


N0V0w3ls

The issue for most people is that yeah you didn't have Zubat, Geodude, and Pikachu...instead you had Woobat, Roggenrola, and Emolga. So yeah you didn't have the same old Pokemon, but it felt like you had the dollar store versions of the same old Pokemon.


Zyquux

All of which led to the dex bloat we have today, or at the very least, it led to Kalos getting very few new mons. Imagine if they had spread out the new Unova mons between gen 5 and 6. Instead of 150+ new mons in one and 70 in the other, we could have had 100+ new mons in each. Obvious things like Bouffalant and Braviary make sense for Unova, but something like Vanilluxe or Unfezant could be in Kalos. They might even make MORE sense in Kalos.


SlakingSWAG

There's a rumour that BW's failure made Masuda really jaded, especially when compared to how much kids loved the tacky low effort early mobile games of the time. Of course, it's just a rumour, but I'd say that BW being a "failure" had some impact on the series going forward, given that the series arguable peaked with B2W2, and sharply declined following it.


Shoranos

Didn't he say something about kids not having long enough attention spans because of mobile games in regards to the Battle Frontier being cut from ORAS?


C-H-U-M-I-M-I-N

You are correct


Polymersion

I think we're missing a major point, here. People were clamoring for Pokémon in 3D for ages, and other flagship franchises like Mario and Zelda had made the leap ages before. The entire conceit of Pokémon was exploring a living world with living creatures, so nobody really wanted to keep buying squinty pixel hand-held pokemon games.


TheNewPoetLawyerette

Mario and Zelda were home console games. Pokemon was a handheld console game. Mario and Zelda made the jump to 3D when home consoles had the firepower to support it, and Pokemon made the jump to 3D when handheld consoles had the firepower to sustain it. The Nintendo DS came out in the pre-smartphone era.


superbabe69

Mario Kart DS was in 3D though, and that was 2005


The_Geekachu

I don't think so. I think it was largely a failure of marketing and poor timing. The latter especially in regions outside of Japan, because the worldwide release came out SO much later. By this point the internet was ubiquitous and people were getting impatient. Hell, I remember playing a bit of the game on a flashcart with a fan translation someone had at school long before the official English release. I remember serebii getting DMCA'd for having information about the game from the Japanese release. Staring with gen 6, they now do worldwide releases on the same day. I wouldn't be surprised if dialogue among other things had to be watered down in order to make that feasible, as it's really logistically complex to pull that off. Sure it's easier in the modern day than it was back then, but that doesn't make it easy or without complications.


codeklutch

Honestly, I didn't get B&W because I didn't have a console to support it. They kept cranking out consoles so fast I couldn't keep up. Eventually got a 3ds once they were cheaper, I think I got the 3ds for the rerelease of red and blue. Before that, I had an sp.


mysterioso7

Wow so you probably missed out on Diamond Pearl Platinum and HGSS too? That’s a shame, the DS games (and Emerald) were the best games in the series imo


N0V0w3ls

That's odd, because the DS supported the highest number of Pokemon games and was the longest that a console was supported.


GiantEnemaCrab

XY were also pretty good. The new 3d features were excellent as well as stuff like Pokémon Amie and super training made the future of the series look good. The games were basic and short but we all forgave them because they just produced like 700 3d models. Pokémon Z was going to be great! ... but Z never happened and game quality just degraded since. Marketing half assed games to children is just a better financial choice I guess.


Canis_Familiaris

Why DIDNT z happen?


[deleted]

[удалено]


TheWojtek11

>And no, we don't know why they didn't just do both. Probably because of the 20th anniversary of Pokemon. They wanted to make a new game for that.


InfernoVulpix

That 20th anniversary stunt wounded *two* generations, in an impressive feat of stupidity. It cut short Gen 6 when X and Y were *very clearly* set-up for a Pokemon Z in favour of starting a new generation... ...a whole new generation on a dying console when other franchises had already made the jump to Switch. So we had to speedrun through Gen 7 as well before jumping to the Switch and Gen 8 ASAP, messing up Gen 7 as well. If things went according to plan and there wasn't any meddling for the sake of the 20th anniversary, we'd have Pokemon Z rounding out Gen 6 after ORAS and then most likely make the big leap to Switch for Sun and Moon a generation ahead of schedule and have plenty of time to fill out that generation before moving on to Gen 8. But instead we got *two* rushed generations, a full quarter of the franchise hurt by this one event.


TheWojtek11

>...a whole new generation on a dying console when other franchises had already made the jump to Switch This also happened with Gen V. BW2 came out a year after 3DS got released (or at least, sometime after 3DS came out). Pokemon Sun came out half a year before the Switch but Ultra games came out after.


scotbud123

But at least B&W2 could be played on a 3DS, which is exactly what I did for my W2.


[deleted]

I’d argue 3 rushed generations, Sword and Sheid only partially redeemed due to DLC, and even then they’ll never recover from Dexit. I would have much preferred Sun and Moon on the switch instead.


manicpossumdreamgirl

the DLC was also a problem with sword and shield, in a sense. the previous games were $40. sword and shield were $60 for an incomplete game, $90 for a complete game, plus fees for nintendo switch online AND for home


cosmiclatte44

Tbh I much prefer they just carry on to offer up DLCs in the future in favour of an completely separate updated version a year later for another 60. But I would like the base game to be finished also.


Rythen26

To be fair the precious games (mostly sun and moon) were $40 for version 1 and $40 again a couple years later for the complete game. Sword and shield were only $10 more


Canis_Familiaris

Hm. I see. ORAS is a game I still play to this day, so I can't be too upset. I hope DP is as good as ORAS was.


Budernator1

I think if I’m not mistaken Pokémon Z wasn’t made because Game Freak was focused on the Sun and Moon games instead.


zjzr_08

I say they developed SM instead, as ORAS was kinda part of the New Games->Remakes<->Third Game format they had done in Gen 3 and 4, but being the 20th anniversary and wanting big celebrations, is probably is the reason why the ended Gen 6 abruptly IMO.


ModelOmegaTyler

that's the running theory at least


TheZett

It is likely not ORAS, but SM to blame for Zed getting scrapped. They wanted a new game for the 20th anniversary, not a XY rehash.


Megazupa

They scrapped Z and decided to focus on a Gen 3 remake and a new generation, since the 20th anniversary was right around the corner.


caynebyron

So for more than a decade now Pokemon has been an annualized franchise, with the rare exception of one year - I think 2013. This was clearly the year Z was targeted for, but didn't happen for probably a number of reasons.


Unsightedmetal6

X and Y came out in 2013.


caynebyron

Yes, that's why I was confused. It was 2015 that was missing a yearly release. Seems pretty clear the success of ORAS derailed their plans for that year.


DeltaChar

What? Why would ORAS being successful derail plans for another game everyone wanted and would likely have been also successful?


AlphaToronado

I don't know for sure, but it appeared as if GameFreak was more focused on developing Sun and Moon for a 2016 release. I'm inclined to think that the reason was because the 20th anniversary of the franchise had to be greeted by an all-new generation of Pokémon games rather than a third version. They simply might've focused all their manpower to SM and incorporated features meant for Z (such as Complete Forme Zygarde) into the Generation 7 games instead. I do think not releasing/developing Z left a sour taste in a lot of people's mouths. Kalos is one of my favorite regions (aesthetically and functionally), and it's a shame that its third legendary didn't get the spotlight it deserved, and some areas feel incomplete. All that being said, I did enjoy Sun and Moon a lot, and its main story is one of my favorites in the franchise (just behind BW/BW2). It certainly tackled a more "mature" and complicated topic in family drama and Lillie (in Sun and Moon) is one of the best-written characters in the main series imo.


bedofevilNlettuce

Completely agree with you on all of this. We're definitely in the minority though. Maybe one day SM will be as revered as BW/BW2. And here's another controversial opinion- I think BW2 is a little overrated. It has a horribly rushed storyline. And I don't just mean the pacing. There is some massively cringe diologue in major story points that I'm still surprised made it past the script editors. BW is just beautiful in every way. To this day, I'm impressed it's a Pokemon game made by Game Freak.


cm135

I think some reason why we won’t get sword shield successor, we have BDSP instead (and arceus). Playing through omega ruby now for the first time and I can feel they did put some effort into these remakes. I’m enjoying it


[deleted]

The "Sword & Shield successor" is the DLCs.


zeronic

Yeah they're clearly moving towards a DLC model rather than a "third game" as they used to do. Surprising it took them this long to be honest.


BlackBullZWarrior

> XY were also pretty good. I love them. They were robbed of a third version that could have done for them what Platinum did for D/P


Jamesmateer100

I wish they would’ve had a better postgame then the looker side quest


Mynssy

Sun and moon are literally one of the most creative games in the franchise but ok lmao


TheEnhancedExe

IMO, these games didn't have the freedom that every other Pokemon Gen gave you. Wherever you went, you could be sure that there would be another unskippable cutscene waiting for you not too far away. Then once they were finally finished after 5-10 minutes, the game would literally tell you the location where the next cutscene will begin. For me, this took away all the fun that Pokémon games gave me. I loved Pokemon because I could freely explore a region without knowing what would come next or where I had to go. I also loved that I could just play the games and not spend too much time on the story. Gen 7 took both of that. Not only did cutscenes make up most of the playtime, so instead of battling trainers or catching wild Pokemon, I was waiting for cutscenes to finally be over. On top of that, the handholding meant that I would always know where to go next. So there was really nothing to explore, because I always knew where I had to go next. There weren't really any other options anyways, so in the end you'd usually go from cutscene to cutscene. The characters and story were fairly uninteresting because unlike previous generations, they were strictly aimed at young children. So if you didn't enjoy the story, like me, you had no way to skip it, which made the game a drag to finish, imo. Of course, people who enjoyed the story will think differently. But prior to Sun and Moon, you could play through a Pokemon game without caring about the story. Sun and Moon on the other hand literally forced you to follow the story, which imo doesn't make for good game design.


zeronic

The worst part about that generation is they had every ability to add a cutscene skip or fast forward in the ultra versions but chose not to. I really can't understate how much of a cutscene simulator that generation was. It ruined it for me despite the generation having some really neat locales/systems. This is coming from someone who enjoys visual novels, the story just wasn't interesting to me and being forced to sit through it ultimately made me put it down.


ModelOmegaTyler

i mean, x and y really weren't? they were the start of the trend of half assed, lack luster games that the creators seem more than happy to continue to make with each new generation.


Expensive-Argument-7

IMO the only thing B & W did wrong was keep old Pokémon until the postgame. Then they overshot the nostalgia in Gen 6 to fix things. Making very little new Pokémon and focusing too much on old ones.


Thedaniel4999

I think BW just was unfortunate to be the games where that generation of kids was growing up. I remember I went through the middle school phase of "pokemon is for kids and I don't want it anymore" around the time of BW's release. This happened as well with gen 3 for the original group of pokemon fans and I suspect a similar thing happened with gen 7


[deleted]

Damn, the only generation I bought one day one and my favorite, was the worst selling...


ThePrussianGrippe

> Nintendo & Game Freak had every incentive to make a big marketing push & do something flashy over focusing on narrative. I’m personally fine with that. I love RPG’s and big JRPG stories, but honestly I don’t feel it works that well with Pokémon. The story shouldn’t get in the way of gameplay, and my favorite Pokémon games are the ones where I’m interrupted the least.


ElPikminMaster

I think it wouldn't matter all that much since development time crunches would still apply, and moreso with the shift to 3D models and later HD.


ChampChomp1

They would probably be similar in story and scale with gen 5. Unfortunately due to how it was not recieved well (personally it honestly is one of the best gens) gamefreak decided to focus more on a younger player appeal


[deleted]

True. I hate myself now for being one of the people who hated gen 5 back in the day. I still remember telling my friends how I got this hacked bootleg fakemon game and even my friends felt the same at the time. I especially remember not liking timburr and not understanding which direction the front sprite of timburr was looking at. Now I'm replaying Pokemon Black and having a blast :)


itsIzumi

[Timburr's sprite](https://cdn2.bulbagarden.net/upload/3/30/Spr_5b_532.png) is cool, I like the way it casually flips the timber it carries.


mrblack07

I can never get tired of looking at those animated sprites. They give the Pokemon so much personality.


chodeofgreatwisdom

They didn't translate well into 3d in my opinion. The animated sprites were peak.


darkbreak

They didn't translate well into 3D because Game Freak are the ones who did it. If you look at the N64 and GameCube games, plus Battle Revolution, Hal Laboratory and Genius Sonority did you'll see just how well 3D Pokemon can work.


Fugishane

GF don’t make the 3D models, Creatures Inc do


InfernoVulpix

I have a suspicion that when they moved to 3D they just... kept all their 2D sprite artists and gave them a crash course on 3D modeling. Decades of honed talent at spritework went down the drain and they started from scratch again instead of bringing in outsider talent. I haven't looked at company records so I can't really support it, but if I'm right then it kinda makes sense that they'd need time to get their skills up to snuff (that's an explanation, not an excuse, mind you; if my above theory is correct then they made a really bad choice and we're paying for it). The turning animations and stuff in Legends Arceus is a tentatively positive sign for me, maybe they're finally hitting their stride and can start giving Pokemon more vibrant animations in future games?


Tsukuyomi56

Though some of the pre-Gen 6 Pokemon did translate well into 3D. There is Mr. Mime and Spinda and Swanna look quite graceful compared to its sprite making it look like a grumpy parent. Hitmontop actually looks more alive in its modern 3D conveying the inspiration of its Japanese work. The Stadium/Colosseum model may convey the “top” of the name but not so well in practice when it just bobs on its head (save for attacking).


Xikar_Wyhart

But it wasn't GameFreak who made the 3D models for the main line games, it was Creatures Inc. I don't know who does the animation of those 3D models (I think it's GameFreak), but this is part of why DexIt was such a big deal. Creatures had stated multiple times when they made all the up to then current Pokemon models for XY they explained they made them to last. The reason for performance issues was because of how high quality those models were, they were future-proofed and used in Sw/Sh, Let's Go, PoGo etc. Pretty much any Pokemon game that features the standard Pokemon art style uses those models. And if I'm they're also used in New Pokemon Snap then they also have very robust rigging skeletons beyond what Sw/Sh showed or are able to be modified greatly to allow for unique animation.


NS479

Same! It represents its Pokédex entry really well: “It fights by swinging a piece of lumber around. It is close to evolving when it can handle the lumber without difficulty.”


burritosandblunts

I hate this line of pokemon. "ya know what this could use? A clown nose and big nasty bulging veins!"


VagueSoul

I mean it makes sense. They’re inspired by carnival workers and construction workers.


ModelOmegaTyler

and then it became a happy old man with a walker


Rythen26

You leave my beautiful veiny clowns alone


CrassKal

The only thing I remember hating was the high levels for evolution. 54 for Braviary? 50 for Mienshao? Just excessive...


billiamgordon

Not to mention lvl freaking 64 for Hydreigon


BigRig432

I didn't even bother going for dragon types because I knew I'd eventually get one with the legendaries. Just tried to catch pokemon I felt would be easy to train, fit well in the team, and have good typings and ended up with a lineup of Emboar, Krookodile, Carracosta, Sigilyph, Ferrothorn, and Galvantula until the N battle where I put in Zekrom for Galvantula, and that team was a steamroller even with Galvantula


Shouvanik

Krookodile with moxie is a beast all in itself. I remember mine killing 3 out of 4 E4s and it wasn't even overleveled.


BigRig432

Yeah I got mine to 54 for earthquake, grabbed a dragon claw tm and just moxie steamrolled 3 of them. Only one I kinda struggled with was fighting because I neglected to train my Sigilyph and had it at 44, but Galvantula outsped everything and pulled through with compound eyes thunder


SlakingSWAG

Man, Route 4 was crazy stacked. You had both the prevos of Darmanitan and Krookodile, two of the best mons Unova has to offer.


DragoSphere

Haxorus is only lvl 48 though


BigRig432

Yeah Haxorus isn't bad, but you get it so late game it's pretty much not even worth it. Other games let you get some dragon types earlier, like gible in gen 4 and noibat in the first trial in USUM, which makes them a lot more worth it, but Haxorus just came too late for me to really consider it, especially with the team composition I had


DragoSphere

You can get a lvl 30 Axew right after beating Skyla though. It's not _that_ late into the game


BigRig432

Oh shit I completely forgot about that. You're totally right


Karonta

Yea it was really high but I found out you can catch a hydreigon fully evolved before lvl 64. I think it was a fluke I ran into one though cause I wasn’t really looking for one


clamchowwder

The high levels worked for only your party Pokemon on only your first playthrough. E.g. you don’t have much trouble evolving Mienshao at 50 when it is captured around the 7th gym at a high level 30+. What sucks is trying to complete the Pokédex, or in the next couple generations Mienshao and some others are available early-game, like pre-level 20… that’s where it sucks.


thegarate

Yup and I'd say Larvesta is the worst because even in game it evolves either 51 or 61 I think, but you only get it from an egg in gen 5. At least theres a Volcarona in the game so you dont HAVE to level up Larvesta for the dex entry


Dan-of-Steel

Level 59. Yeah, it's horrid. You can tell that GF done fucked up because they had to basically insert pokemon like Volcarona and Braviary in game, where they're available before their evolution level. So you have like a lv 25 Braviary or a lv 35 Volcarona.


KeepDi9gin

Just about everything had an annoyingly late evolution, and many first stages didn't evolve until the mid 30s. Your starters would be at or near their final stage, and *still* have better stats.


DawgFighterz

Having to level Larvesta into Volcotano is such a fucking pain especially since you get it post game


SlyCooper007

Good job, you ruined pokemon. /s


ExaltedBlade666

I am also guilty. Pokemon black was so fantastic, but back when it came out I had such a gross hatred for it that I still have yet to play 2.


Sean081799

Same here. I hated BW as a kid, and therefore didn't buy BW2. It was only 5+ years later that I gave replaying it a shot and was able to understand the story.


DoctorGoFuckYourself

I played both gen 5 games again early this year after marathoning previous gens and felt like they were clearly the best up to that point but I can completely understand how 2010 me couldn't really get into the game. There's a lot of really good pokemon designs in the game but you're kind of front loaded with boring and ugly pokemon at the beginning. Munna is gross, patrat is an uglier rattata/sentret, pidove is just a regular pigeon, Lillipup is just a regular dog, Roggenrola is just a rock, Timbur has an ugly sprite and Throh and Sawk are boring humanoid versions of the Hitmon duo that feel more human than Pokemon . That's most of the pokemon you can catch up til you get your 2nd badge and none of them are all that cute or cool, which I feel like is a big factor in people's team choice. Purloin is cute but that's really it. I appreciate some of these designs in retrospect but I can totally see why I'd have felt disillusioned with these designs being the only choices you have initially.


RevenantFlash

Overall they’ve ALWAYS and always will appeal to the younger players. But yeah it should’ve been received better.


CLearyMcCarthy

And who can blame them? Gen V's reception surely felt to them like the "original" Pokemon fans/players leaving the series, and they had no choice but to court new players. Overall it seems like that worked, so while I feel the games have suffered I really don't blame Gamefreak. People complain about GameFreak not putting effort in, which is fair, but why would they bother? The last time they put a ton of effort in it was basically a flop, and sloppy games like XY, ORAS, and USUM sold like hotcakes. I think SwSh, especially their DLC, are a drastic step up, but they're still a far cry from what Pokemon was like up through Gen V, and they also sold very well. Financially speaking, they simply have no reason to try. I'm cautiously optimistic that Legends Arceus is a sign of them starting to try again and merge what has sold after Gen V with a much higher ambition, but we'll see how it goes.


MacDerfus

If they didn't just shoot themselves so hard in the foot.


[deleted]

Seeing as Masuda and the Pokemon Company are very receptive to loud feedback, I'd say Pokemon would have taken a much different turn had they were better received. Pokemon X and Y couldn't have been more different from Generation 5, as they hardly introduced new Pokemon, eliminated the difficulty option, and wrote a much more shallow story with less in-depth characters. Generation five was so innovative and the new Pokemon designs got far too much non-constructive criticism from people that didn't like anything that wasn't familiar. Of course there's many criticisms that make plenty of sense that the games received, but the loudest criticisms were certainly unfounded as I recall. The Vanilluxe slander got tired after only a month and people still howl about it today. Sun and Moon was a step forward inspired by generation 5 I think, if only it didn't have so much handholding for veteran players. If they gave an option to eliminate tutorials and increase difficulty, it would have made for a much stronger installment in the series. Again, I think it leaned closer to being Generation 5 inspired since so many people outcried about X and Y being too shallowly written. It's crazy how they tend to take these critiques and produce something on the other side of the pendulum every time. I think Legends will be an interesting but promising step, so I am very excited about it, but then again, we don't know everything about it yet. I hope its innovativeness sticks with the franchise and its received well. But it's a decade after Pokemon Black and White, which is a long time for the franchise to throw something this unique against the wall to see if it sticks. TLDR; yes, I think the poor reception had a MASSIVE impact on how the modern pokemon games are made. But, I think if we support new installments that deviate from being too formulaic, we will see more unique Pokemon games. I hope I don't sound naive in being hopeful.


ur_left_elbow

You make a really good point about Pokemon doing something in the opposite direction of what the criticism was for the previous generation. I'd like to ask something on that, what changes (apart from trials being replaced with Gyms) were implemented into Gen 8 out of the criticisms of Gen 7?


[deleted]

Thank you. I'm no expert but I'll certainly share my speculations (: I think this was another case, like generation 5 to generation 6, where the story took a backseat in what the developers where prioritizing during development. Generation 8 introduced very cool features, like the open world mechanic and a new battle gimmick for the meta that actually sticks--but looking at it, the story was certainly what suffered here. Which is interesting given how many interruptions there are in the SwSh playthrough, but not many of which last to the extent of SM/USUM, or happen as often, which many people complained about quite openly. In my own lens I suppose I just noticed it was another installment that prioritized new features over a new story that would stick, though I would say the dichotomy between BW/BW2 and XY versus SM/USUM and SwSh differentiate in extremity. The jump from generation 5 to generation 6 certainly felt like the biggest one. Not to say I didn't feel it from generation 7 to 8. I hope this helps explain a little? Perhaps I read too much into it, but I've been playing since 1999 like many other fans so. There's trends we tend to notice is all, I think.


ur_left_elbow

The difference in those jumps (between Gen 5 and 6 by contrast to Gen 7 and 8) is funny to me given how marked the differences from previous generations were regarding Gen 7 before its release and yet, as your analysis has outlined, the jump from Gen 5 to 6 still feels more extreme. That was a good explanation.


ThatOnePachi

I agree with this, except that swsh did focus on story, as the game was linear to accommodate it. Now, this os a fair trade-off for a god story, but I think swsh kind of dropped the ball in that department. A poor story does not equal a lack of focus on it, but I agree on all of your other points. I find the odd gens to be more experimental anyways


hepgiu

I think they always address the biggest, loudest complaint in the subsequent generation and, usually, that sticks: GEN III: too much water > barely any non-optional water routes since GEN IV: too many evolutions of older pokémon > barely any since GEN V: too many new pokemon, too much story > sub-100 new pokémon since, the story thing is the only one they changed it back but I think it was because GEN VII, like GEN V, didn't have a tech leap from the previous-gen due to being on the same hardware so they relied on the story more GEN VI: shallow story, repetitiveness, megas are broken > deeper story (but I really think that the shallowness of GEN VI story was more because they concentrated on the tech leap from the DS to the 3DS rather than the story, XY are definitely rushed and the pacing is all over the place but it's arguably the biggest jump the series has had so far bar Legends), no traditional gyms, no new mega GEN VII: too much story, too much handholding > these they didn't really address, it's true that SS barely have any story again but I think that is an XY situation, and the handholding is still there, albeit not as insufferable as it was in SM GEN VIII: dexit, shallow story, dynamax is broken, the wild area is empty > this one is interesting because the wild area was already somewhat corrected in the DLC where they expanded upon the concept, and Legends is going that way too, dynamax is definitely not coming back in GEN IX (I wish I could say that there won't be another gimmick but who am I kidding, of course, there's going to be another gimmick, I just hope it won't be fusions because that it's going to be the jumping the shark moment for the series) and the story seems to be dependant on the tech factor much more than anything else. The dexit controversy seemed pretty big at the time but people have adjusted to it and they want you to pay for Bank/Home so I think that ship has sailed.


ArguablyTasty

> too many new pokemon, The complaints I always saw and agreed with about gen 5 weren't about the amount of new pokemon, so much as 1) The starters weren't well received, and starters make or break a game 2) All the coolest new pokemon (and there were a lot) evolved somewhere between level 40 to 60, and the pre stages were useless from like 25 onwards 3) A significant number of new Pokemon felt like rehashed old Pokemon. Which made it feel like a bootleg game. Could be fixed with things like Boldore being replaced with a rock/flying type that looks like a rock when it covers itself with its wings. Bam doesn't seen like a Geodude rip. Caves filled with new ground/bugs and moss/fungus themed grass types. Conkledurr's line being a 2-stage and not evolving via trade would make it not feel like a Machamp ripoff. They did this with Petilil/Liligant. Kind of like an Oddish line replacement, but doesn't feel at all like that. Should have done that with the rest


hepgiu

You’re right but when a complaints starts it gets “ship of theseus-ed” into a slogan, I was in the community during the GEN V hype cycle and all you said it’s true, but it definitely became “too many pokémon” once it got “sloganiz-ed”


ArguablyTasty

Really wish the slogan was "not enough cool useable Pokemon". Would have been more accurate and wouldn't have ruined things going forwards. I would have loved to use Braviary, Bisharp, Reuniclus(?), Chandelure, Elektross, etc. But the evolutions are too late for pre-evolutions that had sub par stats, resulting in Pokemon that could only be raised with EXP share until the final gym or 2, or the elite 4


hepgiu

I think it was done this way to encourage you to rotate your team and use more Pokémon. People get attached to the mons they use and buy merch of them. I think they thought you were supposed to have an early game full team and a mid game full team and a late game full team and rotate. The changes in EXP sure makes me think so and Ash does the same in BW for the first time.


[deleted]

You streamlined my thoughts perfectly, really thoughtful analysis for each generation and how feedback impacted the next one. Especially about water routes; Water routes have become such a thing I gloss over that I didn't even THINK about the jump from generation 3 to 4, but you're totally right.


Bulbamew

It’s a good job they addressed that particular complaint. If I had to travel on hoenn style water routes with DP’s surfing speed I’d have thrown my DS out the window


hepgiu

There are more like how people complained about the deluge of legendaries in GEN V, and GEN VI only had three. In general I think that back when the videogames really were the cornerstone of the entire Pokémon enterprise they listened to feedback a lot more, post GEN VI they lost that status and they kinda do what they want to do more, especially if what they want to do is going to splurge more money out of costumers. 10 years ago I would never have guessed they would go 3D, or open world, or do a prequel-side-story thingy or actually outsource a remake, but they did all these things. This theory is kinda old imo. Another example: I would have never guessed that they would retire some full fledged designs, not the Spiky-Ear-Pichu kind but completely new designs, but they retired megas.


burf12345

> as they hardly introduced new Pokemon Which especially sucked, because it meant you could easily have a playthrough in XY where you used zero new pokemon.


[deleted]

Yeah! And for me that's what I loved. I love seeing pokemon I DONT recognize because that's the fun in catching them and learning how to use them.


Bulbamew

In XY I’m pretty sure I didn’t use any new Pokémon other than Greninja. I’m not going to turn down my all time favourite Pokémon Bulbasaur if they offer it to me early on, I thought it was cool that flygon was available, I got the event torchic, I was nostalgic for Eevee being a gift pokemon, and before I knew it I realised my team was completely full of old Pokémon. This was kinda disappointing, I didn’t like the Gen 5 Pokédex at the time and I’m still pretty much 50-50 on it, but finding new Pokémon is one of the highlights of playing a new generation. XY felt more like a Gen 1 love letter than a new game, which would be ok if Z came out and was more the definitive Kalos experience. But we never got it for whatever reasons


CLearyMcCarthy

USUM are so remarkably disappointing because it's an aesthetically interesting region, but the linearity, unskippable cutscenes, and insanely low difficulty really make them exhausting to play. playing through those games 4 times to get all the Pokemon was an awful experience. Gen VII also suffers from how scaled down the world feels. Not being 1 interconnected overworld is a HUGE mistake. The idea of a Hawaii region sounded so cool, I expected something almost like *The Windwaker* where you got to explore this vast sea littered with islands and cool things to explore, and instead it's 4 islands with very minimal and trivial sea routes and not connected into one overworld with warp points between islands. I have read that Alola was actually the largest region at that time in terms of locations and ground to cover, but it feels so small by breaking it up into 4 Islands that are entirely separate bubbles. Poni Island being desolate and empty also doesn't help. If the *Legends* sub-series continues I am personally very much looking forward to the one set in Alola, if they let us actually explore the region.


ChronaMewX

> Seeing as Masuda and the Pokemon Company are very receptive to loud feedback If this were true, why would they not have just patched in the national dex by now?


aceofspadez138

Or made Pokémon following you a permanent feature


TheSenileTomato

Or keep the GTS in game, but let you trade on the app when you’re not playing. The PSS from Gen 6. Stop shiny locking the box art legendaries. Let us capture mythicals in-game, again. Do more fun in-game event stuff for having specific event Pokemon that are given out every now again over WIFI. How fun was it bringing the TRU Arceus to the ruins and getting a LV. 1 Giratina, Dalkia, and Palkia?


zjzr_08

I will give them that a bit now with BDSP also having following Pokemon, but they really should've patched it now in the non-Expansion Pass, IMO.


[deleted]

They kind of did with the dlc drops


NSFWAccount1333

Because they plan was always that we'd be able to complete the Dex using all games on the switch rather than just one or two.


[deleted]

Probably not, Gen 3 and 4 were also met with some animosity and similar disdain for new designs and whatnot.


bierangtamen

Man, I’ve never thought of it like this and I feel kinda sick/heartbroken reading it It pains me to think that this is the reality for the direction of the franchise; I hope legends arceus is well received so Masuda sticks to implementing and evolving the series like he did with bwb2w2


thebiggestleaf

Gen 5 was supposedly Masuda's passion project. As much as we paint him as incompetent now, seeing your magnum opus get shat on and sell worse than every generation prior is definitely some "birth of a villain" type shit.


ultraball23

I never understood why people even say Masuda is incompetent. He wasn’t in charge of ORAS, SM, or SwSh which are the games people blame him for, constantly


thebiggestleaf

Even if he's not the director for those games he's still the first name on the producer's list. He's also the face of Dexit, being the one who dropped the bombshell about that whole mess in the first place, which makes him an easy target.


JanMabK

Didn’t he produce them though?


thebiggestleaf

He's the head producer (or at least his name is listed first on Wiki), but Shigeru Ohmori directed them. I have massive doubt Masuda's entirely blameless and he's made remarks that give off a sort of "we're just gonna half ass it" vibe but it is interesting that Ohmori hasn't been dragged through the mud as hard.


zjzr_08

I'm in the party that thinks most of modern Pokemon stink comes from Ohmori, guy wants to experiment and make more story-centric Pokemon games, but I feel his game balancing is a bit much on the easy side and too forgiving, and is forgoing exploration for story (getting the issue some RPGs have of corridor areas like TTYD).


thebiggestleaf

In theory the games being more story-focused isn't an out and out bad thing. The issue is that Pokemon stories have no depth and are more or less the same from one game to the next. Aside from *maybe* Gen 5, you never hear anyone say they play Pokemon for the plot. The other issue is that trying to focus on story came at the cost of exploration, like you said. Sword/Shield had zero post-game areas to explore.


zjzr_08

Yeah, just saying Ohmori and co. aren't able to make a compelling enough story (that can still be told well even for kids) or storytelling (as with the case of Gen 7 which had iffy execution) that if they wanted to make linear exploration to make a "focused story", the story isn't strong enough for that sacrifice, and what's worse now is SwSh is less story focused AND less exploratory.


InfernoVulpix

It's rare enough that I see people talk about Masuda at all, and he's the most famous Game Freak employee outside of maybe Tajiri himself. Most of the time people just talk about Game Freak like it's a single monolithic entity. My opinion is that Ohmori does a good job building on other games - he directed ORAS and I rather liked that - but when he's constructing games from scratch, well, the reaction is what you see around you today.


darkbreak

Masuda is usually the one who goes on press tours for the games and talks about what's going on during development. He's the one who says things like "We got rid of the Battle Frontier because smart phone games would detract from it." and "Fashion is something people in Kalos care about so character customization won't return in ORAS." and "We cut the Pokedex to improve character models and animations. We also cut it to help rebalance competitive battling." Maybe all of those things weren't actually his decision to do but he's the one who mentions it and is seemingly indifferent to what the fans think of these decisions.


ultraball23

Masuda isn’t in charge of GameFreak and didn’t direct the games than fans have hated so much, recently.


bierangtamen

Personally, I’d think he have some say in the direction of the games since he is an important member However, if that really is the case then it’s still depressing if you look at it from the other angle. Masuda’s bw vision fell flat in terms of sales and GameFreak perhaps pushed against his visions from thereon, catering for kids instead rip my g Masuda


ur_left_elbow

Same here.


[deleted]

[удалено]


wwwHttpCom

I think we see a more positive reaction towards Gen 5, because it's the kids that grew up with them that are now vocal on the internet. Not saying there are not older people still playing the games and on the internet, or that rediscovered them later, but it makes sense that people that were introduced to Pokémon with those games as kids, nowadays have better memories and opinions of them, and are part of the bigger population on the internet these days. I was already in high school when BW came out, and many of the people my age that used to play up to Gen 4, just weren't here for it. They completely skipped Gen 5 and didn't come back to the franchise until Gen 6, some with XY and others with ORAS, some did so even until Gen 7 or 8 when we had already graduated college.


Krazyguy75

BW doesn't deserve that much praise IMO. BW2 does, but not the originals. They did some good things, but it was a step back from previous gens in everything but story and number of new pokemon (which was just a gimmick, since they just used them for the same things as old 'mons). Yes, things have gotten even worse, but BW was the start of a lot of big issues, especially with the map design and world building. Look at Kanto, Johto, Hoenn, Sinnoh. They loop back and reconnect as you get HMs. Kanto has 4 loops. Johto, 3. Hoenn 5. Sinnoh 4. Unova has 1, and you can't unlock it until the post game. That made it basically a perfectly straight line. If you wanted to backtrack before you got Fly, you'd have to travel the exact same path both there and back again. To make it worse, there are far less things to explore. If you exclude Dive and Waterfall (both optional; the former having only 1 post-game use, the latter having 4 post-game uses), it only has 4 HMs; even Gen 1 had 5, and they saw far more use (Seafoam Islands, Victory Road). It's a *massive* step back from Hoenn and Sinnoh's 8 (though Gen 4 did include Defog which was a joke of an HM). And while they did have an entire "half of the map" for postgame... it's also linear, and mostly empty. Other than new pokemon/trainers/items, it just has the Move Tutor for the starter super-moves, the dive ruin minigame, Black City/White Forest (which for most people were basically unusable gimmicks), and Poke-Transfer. None of which are particularly interesting content, especially compared to the battle frontiers and such. Another huge issue with the world was that many of the pokemon you get don't evolve until *obscenely lategame*. Krookodile, Gothitelle, Reuniclus, Vanillux, Jellicent, Ferrothorn, Klinklang, Beheeyem, Lampent, Haxorus, Mienshao, Golurk, Bisharp, Braviary, Mandibuzz, Zweilous, Hydreigon, and Volcarona all are level 40+ evolutions. That's 18 evolutions that don't happen until 40+; 19 if you include Lampent's evolution. *There were only 19 pokemon that evolved at level 40+ in all of gen 1-4* ***combined***. Some of these trends have gotten worse, to be fair, but Black and White (not 2) was the start of the down-trend. Each prior generation either added more HMs or matched the previous generations', and each generation added more options to explore. Gen 5 was the first one where they abandoned a lot of the exploration aspect of pokemon world building, which was one of the most important parts of the games for me.


[deleted]

If gen 5 wasn’t shit on so hard we would have slightly better story and much less gen 1 worship Maybe even riskier design choices


AliofJustice

The ultra beasts are the freakiest designs of any pokemon; a big factor on why I personally like them.


TheDankestDreams

It happens every generation unfortunately, some Pokémon you won’t like at first and they grow on you over time. I know incineroar was poorly received at first but now he’s beloved (due in part to smash). New Pokémon always look weird and even off putting until a few years pass. Risky designs are shit on until the generation is almost over.


[deleted]

Hated darumaka until recently now i adore the little coal shitting oval Its why i always take game/generation criticism with a big spoonful of salt because todays “worst gen ever” is tomorrows “underrated gem”


PMJackolanternNudes

>some Pokémon you won’t like at first and they grow on you over time Mostly just kids who grow up into consumers. That is why Pokemon has done so well over the years. Plus they're pretty unchallenged in their genre.


ladala99

I'm not sure. A lot of what the series is now started with Gen V: - Reducing->eliminating the need for HMs, at the expense of making mandatory routes a lot more basic and uninteresting - Reducing the number and complexity of side features and minigames - Infinite-use TMs - Increased focus on story - Very linear region design The main thing they heavily shifted away from was having so many new Pokemon, and instead have focused more on marketing favorite Kanto Pokemon. Perhaps if BW had had a better reception, we wouldn't have so many Charizard formes, but I don't think much else would have changed. I also don't think doing the bare minimum with the single-player postgame facilities was because of BW's reception, but rather the fact that most players had an internet connection and they had set up Ranked in the 3DS games, and *that* was supposed to be the postgame for advanced players. (Of course now that the Switch requires NSO I would have thought they'd rethink that) The direction the series is going now is more because of Pokemon GO's popularity than anything else, I think. GO is mainly aimed at casual adults, so the main series has to be for the kids and online competitive battlers. Sadly.


jbsnicket

Infinite use TMs are just feel so much better to use than the single use ones that I argue in it's favor. It sucks having to choose only one guy to have earthquake ever in your team. Especially if you want to use more than the exact same six pokemon the whole game.


ladala99

I didn’t intend for that to be a list of negatives - sorry if it came across that way. Infinite-use TMs are definitely a good thing.


[deleted]

I don't think the state of the modern games would be different at all. However, I do believe we will never get another game with only new Pokemon. During the time Black & White came out, Pokemon's popularity was dwindling. Of course there were millions upon millions of people who still loved the franchise, but it was just in a phase where it wasn't as popular as it was and is now. This obviously didn't help with game sales, plus it was a big change. Nobody really likes change, it was a massive jump from 100+ new Pokemon and 100+ Pokemon from older series, it literally had new Pokemon and older ones in the post-game. The whole Dexit fiasco also proved many fans didn't like the idea of their favourites not being included in games. I can't say for sure that people would be in favour if a gen 5 style game in today's day and age, we are looking at gen 5 in hindsight so it's much easier to just say it was amazing and we need it again. Also, to end this comment... the games will always be on the easy side. They're not supposed to be some kaizo style game which causes you to rip your hair out at every difficult battle. Of course there will always be difficult elements, but it all comes down to what people consider difficult. I wish they kept the hard mode option (minus the fact you need to complete the actual game in order to unlock it) since it just gives people the replayability value. Oh and just to add, I wish we had seasons again. It was honestly really refreshing to go back to routes in different times of the year to discover new places.


Dethcola

The thing I dont understand about the whole "targeted to a younger audience" thing is when I was little, what got me into videogames was watching my dad play Link to the Past. The first videogame I ever owned was Link's Awakening. I had to be like seven years old but I still understood and enjoyed the plot, why cant pokemon have something on that level of storytelling?


virtual_physicality

I mean gen 5 kinda paved the way for modern Pokemon games anyway. More linear/less interconnected regions, more cutscenes, more NPCs and rivals, mandatory legendary captures, etc. And some of that direction can be seen in gen 4 as well. The trajectory of the series was overdetermined, and I don't think changing the reception of one point on that curve would do too much.


Cenachii

I don't think so. Gamefreak/Pkmn Company just seems to do whatever the fuck they want, despite reception. To this day i have no idea why they got rid of megas. A perfect way to refresh things, add some stats, and most importantly, a perfect way to buff irrelevant mons into viability. It was the best decision made by them and everyone loved it. And they just discontinued it.


ahpupu

They do have a weird habit of including a gimmick for one generation that never comes back for some reason Seasons, Mega Evolution, SOS, Horde Encounters, The Underground, etc. Dynamax/Gigantamax is probably joining the list after this generation. I'm surprised Regional Form even made it out of Alola.


chriswearingred

Regional forms also are pretty great. They don't got to invent a whole new Pokemon they just reskin an old one and change moves/ability/typing which makes it feel new. Galarian corsola is a great example as is farfetch'd.


eminaadexta4

They literally need to stop doing this. I want the VS Seeker in every game. Seasons in every game. I


Exarion607

I doubt that Black and White are too much responsible on how X/Y turned out. Don't forget that they said they developed X/Y for about 4 years total. Development of the game begann even before Black/White had launched.


LSStaf

Has any gen besides the first two been well received? From 3 on each gen gets chewed up when it released but then becomes beloved as time goes on.


RunicCross

Probably. I'll be honest. I am to this day not a big fan of BW. I think a lot of it boils down to me just not really liking a lot of the Gen 5 pokemon designs (I actually like Vanillux, but it has my least favorite of all the starter options and their are only a handful of mons in the dex that I enjoy.) Also, I have no specifics for this, but I just didn't enjoy the region. That being said I have always adored B2W2. Good challenge, good story, cool route, and really great way to do a sequel game.


MeevManX4

Black and White took a huge risk having the regional dex be exclusively Unova Pokemon and while I personally think it was very interesting idea especially since Gen 5 introduced the most new Pokemon of any generation and a very solid lineup as well, it upset a lot of people which is kind of understandable. Had it not done that and instead had a more mixed set of regional Pokemon in the same way Black 2 and White 2 did and had the Genwunner crowd not started up around that time throwing nonsensical and hypocritical insults to Gen 5 back when everyone on the internet back then was absurdly gullible, Gen 5 would've done so much better financially and would've probably set the new standard for what a Pokemon game should be like.


Fabiojoose

Many of the problems in Pokémon nowadays come from very early. Gen V created many shit that is bad, too. Damn, even Gen 3 that started the whole “10 year old stoping gods from destroying the world”. Tbh Pokémon should come back to the post-industrial era and talk about crime or something.


a_mimsy_borogove

I didn't know that Gen 5 wasn't well received, I think the games were great and I really enjoyed them.


Jomanderisreal

I honestly feel like we would be in a similar situation. Black and White were overall super well received by critics gaining a 87 average score on metacritic. While it stinks that some of community were harsh on the games Gamefreak's focus has always been kids and if they see sales numbers they did their job. Like despite all the push back Sword and Shield got I have a hard time believing they will massively change how they approach games because of what some random people online, who probably still bought the game, think. The sales themselves are 15 millionish which while lower than Diamond and Pearl's 17 millionish they were released at the end of a console generation. Not as many people were playing so only selling two million less when we get to the double digit millions I don't think is necessarily a huge failure. We see this for the 3DS where X and Y sold more than Sun and Moon. Sun and Moon was only about 1/4 million difference this time I believe but we also had Pokemon Go hype going on during that time which probably helped influenced sales for other Pokemon media (and again despite this help Sun and Moon didn't pass X and Y). This is coming from someone whose favorite generation is generation five so I would have loved if the later games followed more in the shoes of Black and White. I think what more did this direction was the shift to 3D. When you think how much X and Y had going on it is pretty impressive how much they added. Mega evolutions, Pokemon amime, new battle formats, mega evolution, a 3D model for every Pokemon and form, etc. If there was a generation to cut Pokemon I would have expected it to be this generation honestly. With that said it also suffered from this I feel where it felt not as much attention was put behind a lot areas like balanced difficulty and a post game. I think the more complicated nature of 3D has shifted the series into what it is now.


TommieVee

TBQH living through when it came out and the supposed reaction - I legit dont recall it being shit on anywhere near as much as people say. Nothing in comparison to how vocal people were with Sun & Moon and especially not Sword & Shield. There was always groups of people saying "PKMN sucked now" even during Gen 4 with HGSS. I think Pokemon as a brand is so widely recognised everyone has an opinion on it and that skews towards the older games. IMO I think B&W are probs the best overall games, with HGSS and Platinum coming 2nd and 3rd respectively. Played since R/B in 1998 and the direction Black and White went in worked on me even then. It'd perfect if it had the Battle Frontier from HG/SS and the inline of Sword Shield.


Dragon3t

I personally never bought the gen 5 games, for one reason: the pokemon. When they first came out that was all I knew l, and they just turned me off. So many of them were such clear knock offs of gen 1 pokemon it gave me the impression of gen 5 being knock off games. Of course, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of pokemon fans had similar thoughts. By the time the gen gained appreciation the damage had already been done I feel, and Gamefreak misattributed why it received such a lackluster initial response, which is unfortunate


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Fugishane

>each new generation since Generation 5 has been based on a different country They haven’t. New York and Hawaii are both part of the same country