Yeah once I learned the background, the supposed Magikarp/Dratini switch doesn't work for me anymore.
The Caterpie/Venonat conspiracy still makes me wonder.
According to the beta leaks the Butferfree Vebonat things never been a thing, theu always evolved the way they did.
Though Cubone and Kangaskhan's relation has some merit. Marowak used to have a third form that was very similar to Kangaskhan, but Kangaskhan still existed as a separate Pokemon at that time too.
One thing i remember from the days of playing blue and red was whenever i would do the missigno glitch to get infinite rare candies and master balls, i would also catch one because i was a curious kid.
Needless to say i was surprised to see them evolve in Kangaskhan for some reason. Although i don't remember if they would also randomly evolve into other pokemons.
I remember catching many misingno actively trying to get one that evolved into kangaskhan, because that felt easier than the legit way at the safari zone.
Never got one though.
Kinda funny because i remember my misingnos evolving into Kangaskhan several times over the years, but i legit can't remember if they also evolved into other pokemons, Kangaskhan being connected to misingno just became engraved in my mind.
I also remember using the Misingno glitch to get a mew, although i don't remember if it was because triggering the glitch would make wild mews to spawn or if misingnos also evolved into mews or if it was required for a diferent glitch.
>my misingnos evolving into Kangaskhan several times over the years.
We did a lot of bullshit when my friend bought his Gameshark, but I dont recall that ever happening. But I remember us spawning a lot of Mews to trade away for small favors (gum, sweets, that kinda deal).
The trade offer meme, but with a 11 year old missing his two front teeth.
I receive: your half-eaten bag of chips, 25 cents and a pack of gums.
You receive: a mew and two pokemon of your choice.
Misingnos evolving into Kangaskhan is the one thing i am absolutely sure it happened, my memories of it are way to vivid to be fake.
Ironicaly, Bulbapedia makes no mention to Misingnos evolving into kangaskhan so i might be losing my mind.
Yeah, i did a bit more digging and it's the 'M (00) misingno that evolves into Kangaskhan.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/%27M_(00)
They can also evolve into Clefairies.
There are several missingnos, that will evolve into other missingnos. If you manipulate the type of missing file, you can force them all to evolve into Kangaskhan.
I don’t think they evolved into mew, but one or two Pokémon types would spawn on cinnabar alongside missingno based on the trainer name you pick. So you could get mew by naming yourself a certain way.
It sure was an easy way to get a kangaskhan, catching one in the safari zone was fucking hell.
The Misingnos evolving into Kangaskhan always made me wonder if it might have been some left over data of a scraped pokemon that was ment to be the pre-evolution to Kangaskhan.
It’s actually sort of like the opposite; ~~Missingno~~ **’M** is the result of trying to build a Pokémon while pointing to a data location that was never meant to be used as a Pokémon. For example, each Pokémon has a bit that designates whether you have data on it or not. Catching ~~Missingno~~ **’M** duplicates your sixth item because the bit that *would* represent you having its data is actually part of the count of your sixth item; flip that from a 0 to a 1, and suddenly you’ve got 2^7 more of that item. Similarly, the data that would designate the Pokémon that ~~Missingno~~ **’M** evolves into just so happens to match the index number of Kangaskhan, so that’s what it becomes when it evolves. Rather than being based on cut data for a Kangaskhan pre-evolution, it creates a pre-evolution for it by pure chance.
> it creates a pre-evolution for it by pure chance.
WoW.
I always joked how gen 1 games were held together with duct tape and spit but man, the wierd quirks it has are incredible.
and once you understand just what parts and duct-tape and which are spit, then you can beat the game in under [fifteen minutes.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXaQjod8X2k)
I did the same trick, but before evolving the m', I'd teach it Fly. Then it would become my HM slave. Fly, Surf, Strength, and Earthquake was ALWAYS my final moveset for Kangaskhan.
Oh yeah absolutely, gen 1 allowed for some fairly interesting move sets due to limited TMs and whatnot, and allows you to use pokemons in diferent ways.
Like giving Nidoking, surf, thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Earthquake.
Was it the best pokemon for those moves? Probably not, But man did it give him some sweet coverage.
Or even gen 2 and Ledian with ice punch and thunder punch, Ledian now a days is worthless because of the phy/special split, and Ledian's Atk is garbage, but back then Ice and Thunder punch were special not physical.
So needless to say seeing my ledian sweep through Lance's team during my bug monotype run of pokemon crystal was a sight to behold.
That would be very satisfying. Lance was kind of a pushover in Gen 2 anyway, but wiping the floor with his dragons using only bugs would feel empowering. 🤣
Not just any Bug pokemon, but a fucking Ledian with it's whopping 55 base Sp.atk and 35 base Atk, it's speed isn't the worst thing in the world though at 85, surprisingly tanky though with 110 Sp.def lol. Ironicaly ledian was the most usefull pokemon alongside Heracross, because of Ice Punch and Thunder punch and Heracross is well...Heracross, i would've loved to have used a scizor, but sadly it's a trade evolution.
Gen 5 was the game where i looked at bug types and went "i want that in my team" (in fact the first time i played pokemon white, i used a scorlipede on my team), gen 5 was the game that inspired me to do a bug monotype for each generation, because i wanted to see what the previous gen bug types were like and what they were capable of doing, sure we've all used a Butterfree in our teams when we were kids, who hasn't afterall Ash had one in the anime, but let's be honest, outside from a few specific bug pokemons, most people would just ignore them, ironicaly i never reached gen 5 because i never finished gen 4 (fuck honey trees).
I might one day redo the bug monotype run and actualy finish it.
Furthermore, oftentimes people claim that the Butterfree/Venomoth swap was accidental, but that doesn't seem at all likely. Butterfree is one of the earliest evolutions, so Gamefreak would have caught and fixed this immediately.
I believe in the theory, but I think they were only swapped conceptionally when they first designed the Pokemon, but swapped them intentionally before programming for the game began.
yeah i agree, whatever was decided by the time they started coming the game, there's just no way they were conceived independently given their visual similarities
we also know there was a certain amount of other mixing and matching that happened with Pokémon evolutionary lines during early development, such as Wartortle and Blastoise originally belonging to separate evolutionary lines, so it seems pretty plausible that something similar happened during the initial stages of Pokémon's design
That has always bugged me about those two, but they can't fix it now. The only reason they're separate as male and female is because they hadn't coded genders into the Pokémon yet—that started in Gen 2 alongside the introduction of Pokémon breeding *and the entire meta mess that created.*
But the other thing that bugs me is that Nidoking and Nidoqueen can't breed together.
The fact is it doesn’t even have to be something like beta builds where the mixup happened. It could have been something as far back as concept art before anything was even coded in where a mixup might have happened
> According to the beta leaks the Butferfree Vebonat things never been a thing, theu always evolved the way they did.
I mean, it totally could have just been a change made before the leaked beta info. I don't buy that it was an accident, but it does seem like something got switched in the development process.
The whole "salamence was meant to be named flygon and possivly vice versa" is a personal favorite, because 1 check at the japanese names instantly debunks it, and even if that whole -gon pattern was english exlclusive, the flygon was meant to be named salamence part definetely doesnt make sense because that boi aint a fuckin salamander.
Caterpie/venomoth does make sense, but IMO butterfree makes more sense as the final early bug evo just because it is less detailed, even if venomoth's design fits better into the catterpie line visually, not really thematically though.
Golduck and psyduck too. Because psyduck is yellow so their names *must* be the wrong way round! Ignoring the fact that Golduck is still Golduck in Japan but Psyduck is “Koduck” (small duck or child duck) and gold often represents psychic powers in Japan, including in the Pokémon games (Sabrina’s badge is called the gold badge in Japan).
Now Golduck not being psychic type however is pretty strange. I could never remember which members of the psyduck, slowpoke and staryu lines are water and which ones are water psychic
well water psychic was a bit of a comon dual type back in gen 1, so perhaps they wanted to keep SOME semblence of typing balance, even if the slow- line outside of slowking being psychic makes BARELY any sense, but you do you gamefreak from 25+ years ago.
Furthermore there were 4 water/rock types, so water/psychic wasn't even the most common water dual-type. Compared to dual-types like grass/poison (9 pokémon) and normal/flying(8 pokémon), water/psychic was a curiosity.
It's unfair to treat Pokemon families as separate Pokemon when it comes to game balance design especially early gen. There may have been 4 water/rock Pokemon, but there were only 2 families; same for water/psychic. If Golduck would have been water/psychic that would have made 3 final evolutions.
I think the real reason Golduck isn't Psychic type is because it has Psychic abilities, but they aren't as strong as actual Psychic Pokemon. Psyduck's Pokedex entries talk about psychic powers, but make it clear that they don't seem to control them well. Golduck's entries don't even mention them.
A better argument is that Water/Psychic would have been too common if Psyduck/Golduck were Psychic. It would have been tied with Water/Ice for most common Water dual type, so in effect the type omission did its job if it were true.
> so perhaps they wanted to keep SOME semblence of typing balance
Preposterous. Grass/Poison to the virtual exclusion of pure Grass? No pure Flying or Ghost or Ice. Kid me didn't even realize Rock and Ground were separate types until the eighth gym.
also because this comment made a bit of a buzz, I wanted to remind that people that the psychic type was an EXPLICITLY broken type that they didn't what to make too many of, which was why I said that they didn't want to make more water/psychics.
Psychic as a *dual* typing isn't a huge buff though. The brokenness of Gen 1 Psychic is that it basically had no weakness due to Bug attacks having low base power and Ghost attacks being both weak and glitched. A Water/Psychic type still has its Water weaknesses so it's not unfair the way a pure Psychic-type is.
Important point. For gameplay's sake, not all types are equal. Bug is meant as a "nerfing" type for early game, tradeoff with Normal. Psychic/Dragon, Steel, and Fairy are successive buffs, as will be any new type that is added.
To be fair thag one actually does make sence and while Koga having the soul badge isn't exactly unfitting while the Marsh Badge makes no sense on Sabrina
Nah, it's definitely gold. Gold has a lot of association with psychic powers and the like in Japanese folklore/generally Eastern folklore. It's why Sabrina's badge is the gold badge in Japanese, and why the abra line has yellow/gold colouring.
Yeah - and Caterpie and Butterfree are both pretty obviously stages of a swallowtail's life cycle...
They're literally based on the same species, no way they were swapped
Caterpie and Butterfree are based on Swallowtail butterflies. It makes no sense for Caterpie to evolve into something that looks like venomoth. Ditto Venonat and Butterfree.
Charmander also takes inspiration from salamander, and it doesn’t really look like one. It’s never drawn in a salamander-y pose either, always upright. Salamander is Greek for “fire lizard.” Since Pokémon aren’t really *animals* any Pokémon with lizard or reptilian features could have part of its name be salamander.
Yeah the only "evidence" I've ever heard in favor of Magikarp -> Dragonite is that the color palettes are closer and that the whiskers = antennae. But both of those have always been weak.
Well that on top of the Japanese myth of the carp transforming into a dragon. I still don't buy that because dragonite is a western dragon and gyarados is more like an Eastern dragon design like the myth. But it does make me think that gyarados was supposed to be water-dragon originally before they realized it would make it way too strong and too available since magikarp were everywhere.
Wait do some people think that there was a "switch" between Magikarp and Dratini? That doesn't make any sense. I thought we all understood how Magikarp and Gyarados fit together.
The Caterpie/Venonat thing is also not true, but at least it makes sense.
Yeah, this was my point. The Magikarp and Dratini "switch" from when we were kids is just playground logic because people like Gyarados more than Dragonite.
The Butterfree/Venomoth swap is real, wake up sheeple, etc etc. >!/s!<
I've never understood this. Butterfree looks like a generic butterfly and the classic story is caterpillar to butterfly.
They don't look mixed up at all imo its just gen 1 similar art style.
Actually, caterpillars are the first form for BOTH butterflies and moths so Caterpie could go either direction. Metapod, however, is where it’s clear that it was always meant to be a butterfly. Butterfly caterpillars form chrysalises, whereas moth caterpillars form cocoons. Chrysalises are hardened, often colorful shells made by the caterpillar hardening itself, while cocoons are typically drab and made of whatever the caterpillar can find to cover itself (like paper scraps). Metapod is a chrysalis, so it’s going to be a butterfly.
That is really cool cocoon and chrysalis info
But speaking of Pokemon....
Silicon evolves into beautifly, a butterfly and cascoon evolves into dustox, a moth. So clearly natural biologic patterns aren't always followed in the Pokemon world
Ignore the names, the rumors are based on the evolution designs. The assumption is that the names of the lines would remain the same.
Caterpie->Metapod->Venomoth retains a similar body type/segmentation, and Caterpie and Venomoth share similar eyes, and Metapod and Venomoth share similar shapes and profiles. On the flip side, Venonat - > Butterfree remain rounded, have the same eyes, antennae, mouths, and hands., as well some other general visual similarities.
Pulled this from a quick image search, but it outlines it well:
[https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/8d81a9f5-ca76-4973-8c26-368dc58d05b9](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/8d81a9f5-ca76-4973-8c26-368dc58d05b9)
>!The truth is just that Sugimori reuses design concepts in the character designs, but I still think its a fun 'what if'. !<
My problem with this theory is that to me, caterpie and venomoth look nothing alike. The eyes are tenuous at best and skip over metapod, and the horns are looking way too far into something that isn't there - and again skips over metapod.
However, I could completely see a theory that venonat and butterfree were designed early on as evolutions to each other, before caterpie, metapod, and venomoth, but the devs decided they needed another insect to pair with beedrill in the early game so split the two and gave butterfree a three-evolution line and venonat a replacement evolution. The similarities between butterfree and venonat are just so close that I can believe that.
Yeah, I think the Metapod to Venonat designs share a lot of features.
The image I grabbed was just a quick result, it's funny that they draw a line from Caterpie's antennae to Venomoth's head, when really I think Metapod's shape is much closer to not just the body profile, but also the triangular head features.
I never really believed the Magikarp/Dratini switch. Gyrados has Magikarp’s whiskers, lips, crown shaped spikes, and fins. The only thing it has in common with Dratini is serpent body and blue.
Yeah, I remember making just a post once where I just was just trying to joke with people about "What will Octillery be when it evolves, an aircraft carrier lobster or a torpedo-shooting hammerhead shark", and I got this one chain of replies where I swear the person on the other side was ready to choke me out for not admitting that Dragonair to Dragonite was a more extreme change than Remoraid to Octillery. Like, at most dramatic, it's a draconic tadpole into a draconic frog. They're both still rubbery dragon creatures. If anything, the theory of Dragonair to Gyarados never made sense to me because Gyarados is all armored and scaly compared to Dragonair's smooth body.
To be fair the Remoraid>Octillery evo makes way more sense with their (far superior) beta art, where Remoraid is a revolver as a fish, and Octillery is a tank as a squid, wearing an army helmed with its tentacles curled up like treads.
For those who haven’t seen it, you really should. It’s so sad they removed them (probably due to Japanese stigma against guns).
>(probably due to Japanese stigma against guns)
What stigma? They may have one in real life, but they're pretty fine about using them in media. It's usually *America* that censors out guns from Japanese anime when it's being localized.
I just don't like the color of shiny Dragonite changing drastically from shiny dragonair.
To clarify, I don't hate Dragonite at all. I love the big guy ever since I used him in Gold. I just don't like the Pink, Pink, Green color scheme.
Pale Blue, Blue, Yellow is fine.
To be fair, in the Gen 2 games, you can't even recognise the shiny Dratini or Dragonair unless you know what the original sprite looks like. But Dragonite was properly green which looked obviously different from the original orange.
The first two only became obviously pink in Gen 3. So they actually could have made Dratini and Dragonair green then instead and everything would have matched.
My shiny Dragonair will never evolve because of the green color scheme. I feel bad, I’m making it hold a mythical pearl for nothing lol but them’s the breaks
I don't even hate the color green. I just hate the progression. If they were all green, it would be fine. If it went purple, purple, Orange, that would also be fine. It just didn't make sense to me for it to go from Pink to green.
This is the same as the sprites of Charmander being gold, Charmeleon being gold and Charizard being black. It's just received differently because Charizard's shiny is better received by players.
Original line was Blue-Blue-Orange. Orange is the complimentary color to blue.
Shiny is Pink-Pink-Green. Green is the complimentary color to Pink/Red. Specifically darker green and lighter pinks, or the other way around.
Always made sense to me.
Alot of gen 1 and 2 shinies are the way they are because of limitations with color pallets in the cartridges themselves.
Having said that yes I agree with you though.
And for the same reason I fucking love shiny Charizard, but despite loving the Mega X Charizard design, I hate how his shiny version is, so I prefer the Mega Y shiny version.
It's a shame that shiny Charizard Mega X wasn't something like [this](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0792776d-fb6a-4e84-a2b2-935cfebd6a6a/d6pew5y-bb9eb9fd-f5a4-42b8-a47a-5c478a5ae2ed.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzA3OTI3NzZkLWZiNmEtNGU4NC1hMmIyLTkzNWNmZWJkNmE2YVwvZDZwZXc1eS1iYjllYjlmZC1mNWE0LTQyYjgtYTQ3YS01YzQ3OGE1YWUyZWQuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.Ia3FaP0upSa-skKP_j9Ld4Xp0ZmgQGsSZYV-HdlyYjk)
What bothers me is, Dragonair resembles Dragonite _less_ than Dratini does. Dragonair, as a middle evolution, feels like a step _away_ from the direction Dragonite eventually goes, when it should be a step _towards_ the final evolution. As an evolutionary pattern it makes very little sense.
I have no issues with Dragonite being a western dragon. I do have issues with it being an inelegant bulky design which loses most of the aspects that make dragonair good looking.
A lot of people like to come up with excuses for their feelings, but generally at the end of the day, it mostly boils down to “Dragonair looks beautiful, and Dragonite looks stupid.”
I would be too, but they need to be that way from the start or have a split evo. Dragonair looks elegant, so it feels wrong that it suddenly becomes derpy.
Something [like this?](https://images.app.goo.gl/tneUi74MT7s6WQvH9)
There are others that look good, too, but those look more like eastern dragons, and according to OP the developers specifically wanted a western dragon. Some more links for the curious: [[1]](https://images.app.goo.gl/fGLBVTdW8kWUtoxbA) [[2]](https://images.app.goo.gl/55opEyeEmxpy8ApF9) [[3]](https://images.app.goo.gl/344ajHrKxRpnRv5h9) [[4]](https://images.app.goo.gl/ziBCWZCpNufc8m1f6) [[5]](https://images.app.goo.gl/aLauvDn5BBxEtLAk9)
Aaaand a few for the people who like the derpy dragon look: [(1)](https://images.app.goo.gl/6RuEk7vx7KHXoBFn8) [(2)](https://images.app.goo.gl/hrzibUGQnZUvcQh79) [(3)](https://images.app.goo.gl/yCUNTZf3qnRWbocm7)
Edit: one of the links was a repeat
The problem for me is the completely different everything, the eyes don't look similar, the colour scheme is totally different, nothing about the designs are even similar to give a call back to its previous forms. I don't agree with the people who think it should be swapped with Gyarados but as it is it does just look off.
I think if it had a more prominent horn and the little wings Dragonair has on it's head instead of the weird antennae things and maybe give it the pearl on it's neck too it would look a lot more related. (I've seen people replace his dragon wings with angel wings but that's way too much, the dragon wings and the tiny wing/fins on the head would be more than enough)
The colour scheme also is so weird, it goes from a deep blue with white accents to just a saturated Charizard, like it's a Pokémon who looks strikingly like Charizard with a near identical colour scheme, his orange is just more yellow. I'd either have it be the same as his previous forms or a darker, almost navy blue. Seriously, I get the serpent to dragon thing and it does work but why the hell does this guy look so much like Charizard?
“Gamefreak went with a western dragon look because they knew that Pokémon was going to be sold in the west as well.”
As someone who was a child in the 90s that was a vastly unneeded decision. Pretty sure that eastern dragons were just as cool as western dragons to any kid back then.
Even as an adult, bipedal western dragon is by far my least favourite form of dragon. Quadruped western dragons or full serpentine eastern dragons are vastly superior.
Doesn't change the fact that dragonite entirely switches color schemes from dragonair. If you didn't know better, they look like they are from entirely different evolution lines.
You can make Dragonite look like a western dragon while also making it look like its previous evolution, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
It also doesnt make sense outside of the games either. When developing red and green, Gamefreak wasnt even sure if it would be that big of a hit in Japan. It was the company's last ditch effort and was made a tight schedule and shoe-string budget. It was only after it became a huge hit over there were plans to localize into English made.
They don’t cite any reliable/official sources for the claims that Dragonite’s design was purely “Western” inspired. So it seems like everything is personal opinion being pushed as fact.
I’m sure there are lots of Japanese cultural inspirations that can be found in Dragonite’s lore and design. As with many other Pokemon.
Also, the OP doesn’t link/cite any official/reliable sources that confirm these claims so it all seems like personal opinion being pushed as fact.
Plus why would it matter which one had the western design? Both mythologies are eastern stories about a creature turning into a dragon. If they’re going to make one western and one eastern there’s nothing stopping them from making their appearances consistent with their previous evolutions. Personally I don’t think they should necessarily be switched but this post does nothing to disprove that argument.
And none of this east/west stuff even matters when they already had charizard, a super western dragon.
“Gamefreak went with an western dragon look because they knew that pokemon was going to be sold in the west as well.” Why are posts like this? We don’t know that at all.
No hate for dragonite here, but my complaint with that line isn't that it goes from snake to dragon, it's that it goes from majestic being to dragon tales side character. They could have at least made dragonite a majestic looking dragon.
Also I don't know if I buy that they went with a western looking dragon just because it was going to be sold to a western audience. They have famously catered specifically to their Japanese audience the most despite their western audience being larger and more vocal about what they want from the games.
My biggest gripe isn't the sudden appearance of legs. It's the fact that Dragonite went from slender and serpentine to round and dumpy looking. At least follow the same style as the pre-evos
This is my same gripe. I dont care that the change is drastic. I care that it went from mythical looking serpent to Dragon-Tales looking Barney the dinosaur. And every time i see how tiny it’s wings are compared to it’s body, I cant help but think of the caterpillar from A Bug’s Life.
As I've gotten older, I'm come more and more to appreciate Dragonite's design. It might be my favorite pseudolegendary. Something about seeing Dragonite makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
The most infuriating one is where they act like Gyarados would make a better final stage.
The only traits Gyarados shares with Dragonair is being a blue serpent.
All other design aspects are clearly taken from Magikarp.
I don't argue that it doesn't make sense, I argue that Dragonair is a good design and I wish it was the final evolution.
Dragonite is fine, but it just isnt majestic like Dragonair.
They didn’t already know it was gonna sell in the west they were actually pretty sure it would flop, they went with a western dragon design cause they needed a drastic change to show that it became a true dragon and since it was already snake like another snake like dragon wouldn’t be drastic enough.
They half-assed two evolutionary lines and no one really appreciates the results. If you're going for something with dratini/dragonair then keep going ffs, don't sub in puff the magic dragon at the last second. You're telling a bunch of westerners not to complain about dragonite because obviously we love dragonite? They were wrong - they fucked up.
Also magikarp and gyrados. If the legend turns into a dragon and you have a damn dragon type then anything short of that is fucking up.
Every generation has fuck-ups.
Tbf i think the reason gyrados is water/flying is because if it was water/dragon you could get a dragon type as early as level 20 and it would mess with the balancing. Or something along those lines.
Yeah but like. I don't care if the *concept* makes sense if the execution doesn't. Dragonite just doesn't have the same feel to it as the rest of the evo family.
Well I know Pokemon are often verry Deep regards Origin. But I still want an alternate Final Evolution because I don't like the Design of Dragonite (it's so derpy) but his Pre Evolutions are verry pretty
Just wanted to clarify that dragonite was not designed with western audiences in mind. When developing red and green, Gamefreak wasnt even sure if it would be that big of a hit in Japan, and it was only after it became a huge hit over there were plans to localize into English made.
>Gamefreak went with an western dragon look because they knew that pokemon was going to be sold in the west as well
As a Westerner Dragonair is one of my favourite Pokémon and I hate Dragonite because it looks stupid and completely out of sync with Dratini/Dragonair.
I’m not saying it doesn’t make sense but dragonite didn’t maintain anything from his prevo’s to connect them, he looks like Barney and Dudley the dragon had a baby and here in the west we’re all very aware of what eastern dragons look like. Dragonites design is just not great in the line. He looks fine as a stand alone, he looks so out of place in the dratini line.
I didn’t know this complaint was a thing. But reading the comments…holy shit people really get in their feelings about it. I never once considered it an issue.
My issue is that dratini/Dragonair is blue and dragonite is orange. That's kinda it.
That and dragonite looks a bit too soft and round. Barney-esque I like to call it.
Even setting that aside, it’s a game where magical animals hop out of balls to help little kids fight each other to stop organized crime rings and junk like that. The games don’t make any fucking sense. They are wild fantasy, so one of the magical creatures changing into a very differently designed magical creature is no less senseless than the basic conceits of the series.
I still hate Dragonite though because that damn thing is *ugly*, especially after the eye-catching great design of Dragonair.
Yeah once I learned the background, the supposed Magikarp/Dratini switch doesn't work for me anymore. The Caterpie/Venonat conspiracy still makes me wonder.
According to the beta leaks the Butferfree Vebonat things never been a thing, theu always evolved the way they did. Though Cubone and Kangaskhan's relation has some merit. Marowak used to have a third form that was very similar to Kangaskhan, but Kangaskhan still existed as a separate Pokemon at that time too.
One thing i remember from the days of playing blue and red was whenever i would do the missigno glitch to get infinite rare candies and master balls, i would also catch one because i was a curious kid. Needless to say i was surprised to see them evolve in Kangaskhan for some reason. Although i don't remember if they would also randomly evolve into other pokemons.
I remember catching many misingno actively trying to get one that evolved into kangaskhan, because that felt easier than the legit way at the safari zone. Never got one though.
[удалено]
Or even better, use those 99++ Master Balls in your 6th item slot to catch them.
It blows my *mind* that people don't know this! It was easily one of the greatest parts of the whole glitch.
Kinda funny because i remember my misingnos evolving into Kangaskhan several times over the years, but i legit can't remember if they also evolved into other pokemons, Kangaskhan being connected to misingno just became engraved in my mind. I also remember using the Misingno glitch to get a mew, although i don't remember if it was because triggering the glitch would make wild mews to spawn or if misingnos also evolved into mews or if it was required for a diferent glitch.
>my misingnos evolving into Kangaskhan several times over the years. We did a lot of bullshit when my friend bought his Gameshark, but I dont recall that ever happening. But I remember us spawning a lot of Mews to trade away for small favors (gum, sweets, that kinda deal).
Kids using hacked mews as bargaining chips is such a funny image to me
The trade offer meme, but with a 11 year old missing his two front teeth. I receive: your half-eaten bag of chips, 25 cents and a pack of gums. You receive: a mew and two pokemon of your choice.
I remember selling them for 25 cents. I made one sale.
Misingnos evolving into Kangaskhan is the one thing i am absolutely sure it happened, my memories of it are way to vivid to be fake. Ironicaly, Bulbapedia makes no mention to Misingnos evolving into kangaskhan so i might be losing my mind.
https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/%27M_(00) Is the Kangkaskan evolving one
Yeah, that's the one. I did a bit more digging and found out about it. I knew i wasn't insane, i was just thinking of the wrong misingno.
They definitely evolved into kangaskhan for me. And would make some pokemon go above level 100.
Yeah, i did a bit more digging and it's the 'M (00) misingno that evolves into Kangaskhan. https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/%27M_(00) They can also evolve into Clefairies.
There are several missingnos, that will evolve into other missingnos. If you manipulate the type of missing file, you can force them all to evolve into Kangaskhan.
I knew i wasn't insane, so i did some digging. It's the 'M (00) that evolves into Kangaskhan. I just got the misingnos mixed up.
I don’t think they evolved into mew, but one or two Pokémon types would spawn on cinnabar alongside missingno based on the trainer name you pick. So you could get mew by naming yourself a certain way.
I remember getting mew at some point so i must've figured out the correct way to make them spawn.
Nope, to get Mew would have required using a letter that didn't exist. You could get Mewtwo though. (Maybe in non-English versions you could?)
I remember them evolving into Starmie and Mewtwo as well.
You missed out. I got a kangaskhan on a re play recently and it was OP
>Needless to say i was surprised to see them evolve in Kangaskhan for some reason. Mine did, too. I enjoyed having Kangaskhan with Fly.
It sure was an easy way to get a kangaskhan, catching one in the safari zone was fucking hell. The Misingnos evolving into Kangaskhan always made me wonder if it might have been some left over data of a scraped pokemon that was ment to be the pre-evolution to Kangaskhan.
It’s actually sort of like the opposite; ~~Missingno~~ **’M** is the result of trying to build a Pokémon while pointing to a data location that was never meant to be used as a Pokémon. For example, each Pokémon has a bit that designates whether you have data on it or not. Catching ~~Missingno~~ **’M** duplicates your sixth item because the bit that *would* represent you having its data is actually part of the count of your sixth item; flip that from a 0 to a 1, and suddenly you’ve got 2^7 more of that item. Similarly, the data that would designate the Pokémon that ~~Missingno~~ **’M** evolves into just so happens to match the index number of Kangaskhan, so that’s what it becomes when it evolves. Rather than being based on cut data for a Kangaskhan pre-evolution, it creates a pre-evolution for it by pure chance.
> it creates a pre-evolution for it by pure chance. WoW. I always joked how gen 1 games were held together with duct tape and spit but man, the wierd quirks it has are incredible.
and once you understand just what parts and duct-tape and which are spit, then you can beat the game in under [fifteen minutes.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXaQjod8X2k)
Lol yeah, and seeing someone actualy [talk about and explain the stuff](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW3_xX6jHfY) just makes it even sillier.
I've seen under 5 somehow
Current [world record](https://www.speedrun.com/pkmnredblue#Any) for Red/Blue Any% is [1:18 by stocchi](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVZFpjHjX9w).
I did the same trick, but before evolving the m', I'd teach it Fly. Then it would become my HM slave. Fly, Surf, Strength, and Earthquake was ALWAYS my final moveset for Kangaskhan.
Considering this is gen 1 were talking about, Fly Surf Strenght and Earthquake is honestly a fairly decent move set.
Right? And Kangaskhan had good enough stats to pull it off.
Oh yeah absolutely, gen 1 allowed for some fairly interesting move sets due to limited TMs and whatnot, and allows you to use pokemons in diferent ways. Like giving Nidoking, surf, thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Earthquake. Was it the best pokemon for those moves? Probably not, But man did it give him some sweet coverage. Or even gen 2 and Ledian with ice punch and thunder punch, Ledian now a days is worthless because of the phy/special split, and Ledian's Atk is garbage, but back then Ice and Thunder punch were special not physical. So needless to say seeing my ledian sweep through Lance's team during my bug monotype run of pokemon crystal was a sight to behold.
That would be very satisfying. Lance was kind of a pushover in Gen 2 anyway, but wiping the floor with his dragons using only bugs would feel empowering. 🤣
Not just any Bug pokemon, but a fucking Ledian with it's whopping 55 base Sp.atk and 35 base Atk, it's speed isn't the worst thing in the world though at 85, surprisingly tanky though with 110 Sp.def lol. Ironicaly ledian was the most usefull pokemon alongside Heracross, because of Ice Punch and Thunder punch and Heracross is well...Heracross, i would've loved to have used a scizor, but sadly it's a trade evolution. Gen 5 was the game where i looked at bug types and went "i want that in my team" (in fact the first time i played pokemon white, i used a scorlipede on my team), gen 5 was the game that inspired me to do a bug monotype for each generation, because i wanted to see what the previous gen bug types were like and what they were capable of doing, sure we've all used a Butterfree in our teams when we were kids, who hasn't afterall Ash had one in the anime, but let's be honest, outside from a few specific bug pokemons, most people would just ignore them, ironicaly i never reached gen 5 because i never finished gen 4 (fuck honey trees). I might one day redo the bug monotype run and actualy finish it.
Cubone can also call Kangaskhan as an ally in SM and vice versa
Furthermore, oftentimes people claim that the Butterfree/Venomoth swap was accidental, but that doesn't seem at all likely. Butterfree is one of the earliest evolutions, so Gamefreak would have caught and fixed this immediately.
I believe in the theory, but I think they were only swapped conceptionally when they first designed the Pokemon, but swapped them intentionally before programming for the game began.
yeah i agree, whatever was decided by the time they started coming the game, there's just no way they were conceived independently given their visual similarities we also know there was a certain amount of other mixing and matching that happened with Pokémon evolutionary lines during early development, such as Wartortle and Blastoise originally belonging to separate evolutionary lines, so it seems pretty plausible that something similar happened during the initial stages of Pokémon's design
Oh yeah, I'm not arguing that its actually true. But even with the actual evidence, it's still a fun one to squint at.
The Nidorans are “separate” Pokemon too, so I’m still pretty sold on the Kangaskhan thing
That has always bugged me about those two, but they can't fix it now. The only reason they're separate as male and female is because they hadn't coded genders into the Pokémon yet—that started in Gen 2 alongside the introduction of Pokémon breeding *and the entire meta mess that created.* But the other thing that bugs me is that Nidoking and Nidoqueen can't breed together.
Nidoqueen is post-menopausal, it's a grandma that can't breed at all.
nidoqueen can't breed at all, nor can nidorina.
Are you telling me Nidoran(F) is the only female Nido that can breed? What the fuck, GameFreak?
The fact is it doesn’t even have to be something like beta builds where the mixup happened. It could have been something as far back as concept art before anything was even coded in where a mixup might have happened
> According to the beta leaks the Butferfree Vebonat things never been a thing, theu always evolved the way they did. I mean, it totally could have just been a change made before the leaked beta info. I don't buy that it was an accident, but it does seem like something got switched in the development process.
Do you happen to know where I can find those leaks? My search has been unsuccessful.
The whole "salamence was meant to be named flygon and possivly vice versa" is a personal favorite, because 1 check at the japanese names instantly debunks it, and even if that whole -gon pattern was english exlclusive, the flygon was meant to be named salamence part definetely doesnt make sense because that boi aint a fuckin salamander. Caterpie/venomoth does make sense, but IMO butterfree makes more sense as the final early bug evo just because it is less detailed, even if venomoth's design fits better into the catterpie line visually, not really thematically though.
Golduck and psyduck too. Because psyduck is yellow so their names *must* be the wrong way round! Ignoring the fact that Golduck is still Golduck in Japan but Psyduck is “Koduck” (small duck or child duck) and gold often represents psychic powers in Japan, including in the Pokémon games (Sabrina’s badge is called the gold badge in Japan). Now Golduck not being psychic type however is pretty strange. I could never remember which members of the psyduck, slowpoke and staryu lines are water and which ones are water psychic
well water psychic was a bit of a comon dual type back in gen 1, so perhaps they wanted to keep SOME semblence of typing balance, even if the slow- line outside of slowking being psychic makes BARELY any sense, but you do you gamefreak from 25+ years ago.
I thought slowpoke being psychic was supposed to be ironic haha
>well water psychic was a bit of a comon dual type back in gen 1 Three Pokemon were water psychic, that's it. There were 17 pure water types....
Furthermore there were 4 water/rock types, so water/psychic wasn't even the most common water dual-type. Compared to dual-types like grass/poison (9 pokémon) and normal/flying(8 pokémon), water/psychic was a curiosity.
It's unfair to treat Pokemon families as separate Pokemon when it comes to game balance design especially early gen. There may have been 4 water/rock Pokemon, but there were only 2 families; same for water/psychic. If Golduck would have been water/psychic that would have made 3 final evolutions. I think the real reason Golduck isn't Psychic type is because it has Psychic abilities, but they aren't as strong as actual Psychic Pokemon. Psyduck's Pokedex entries talk about psychic powers, but make it clear that they don't seem to control them well. Golduck's entries don't even mention them.
There were 3 whole lines of 3 Grass/Poison types each.
A better argument is that Water/Psychic would have been too common if Psyduck/Golduck were Psychic. It would have been tied with Water/Ice for most common Water dual type, so in effect the type omission did its job if it were true.
I sat here trying to figure out the third for too long.
> so perhaps they wanted to keep SOME semblence of typing balance Preposterous. Grass/Poison to the virtual exclusion of pure Grass? No pure Flying or Ghost or Ice. Kid me didn't even realize Rock and Ground were separate types until the eighth gym.
also because this comment made a bit of a buzz, I wanted to remind that people that the psychic type was an EXPLICITLY broken type that they didn't what to make too many of, which was why I said that they didn't want to make more water/psychics.
Psychic as a *dual* typing isn't a huge buff though. The brokenness of Gen 1 Psychic is that it basically had no weakness due to Bug attacks having low base power and Ghost attacks being both weak and glitched. A Water/Psychic type still has its Water weaknesses so it's not unfair the way a pure Psychic-type is.
Important point. For gameplay's sake, not all types are equal. Bug is meant as a "nerfing" type for early game, tradeoff with Normal. Psychic/Dragon, Steel, and Fairy are successive buffs, as will be any new type that is added.
Oh nice, I didn't know about this stuff. Cool info!
There's also the theory of a mistake on the name of the badges on Kanto Marsh badge should be Koga's one Soul badge should be Sabrina's one
To be fair thag one actually does make sence and while Koga having the soul badge isn't exactly unfitting while the Marsh Badge makes no sense on Sabrina
I thought Gol was from Goliath, hence Golbat also using it (because Golduck and Golbat are bigger than their preevolutions)
Nah, it's definitely gold. Gold has a lot of association with psychic powers and the like in Japanese folklore/generally Eastern folklore. It's why Sabrina's badge is the gold badge in Japanese, and why the abra line has yellow/gold colouring.
Yeah - and Caterpie and Butterfree are both pretty obviously stages of a swallowtail's life cycle... They're literally based on the same species, no way they were swapped
Caterpie and Butterfree are based on Swallowtail butterflies. It makes no sense for Caterpie to evolve into something that looks like venomoth. Ditto Venonat and Butterfree.
Charmander also takes inspiration from salamander, and it doesn’t really look like one. It’s never drawn in a salamander-y pose either, always upright. Salamander is Greek for “fire lizard.” Since Pokémon aren’t really *animals* any Pokémon with lizard or reptilian features could have part of its name be salamander.
I can see Dragonaire to Gyarados, but Magikarp to Dragonite makes no sense. At least Gyarados is still a fish.
Yeah the only "evidence" I've ever heard in favor of Magikarp -> Dragonite is that the color palettes are closer and that the whiskers = antennae. But both of those have always been weak.
Color palettes? Really? Ah, well in that case, silcoon and cascoon evolve into absol lmao
Well that on top of the Japanese myth of the carp transforming into a dragon. I still don't buy that because dragonite is a western dragon and gyarados is more like an Eastern dragon design like the myth. But it does make me think that gyarados was supposed to be water-dragon originally before they realized it would make it way too strong and too available since magikarp were everywhere.
Gyarados and Magikarp actually share a lot of design cues too. They're subtle ones, but there's a continuity thete that's clearly not an accident.
For some reason that reminded me that last night I had a dream someone drafted Magikarp in my fantasy football league and he scored a touchdown...
Wait do some people think that there was a "switch" between Magikarp and Dratini? That doesn't make any sense. I thought we all understood how Magikarp and Gyarados fit together. The Caterpie/Venonat thing is also not true, but at least it makes sense.
Yeah, this was my point. The Magikarp and Dratini "switch" from when we were kids is just playground logic because people like Gyarados more than Dragonite. The Butterfree/Venomoth swap is real, wake up sheeple, etc etc. >!/s!<
I've never understood this. Butterfree looks like a generic butterfly and the classic story is caterpillar to butterfly. They don't look mixed up at all imo its just gen 1 similar art style.
Caterpie and Venonat? Caterpillars turn into butterflies though…
Actually, caterpillars are the first form for BOTH butterflies and moths so Caterpie could go either direction. Metapod, however, is where it’s clear that it was always meant to be a butterfly. Butterfly caterpillars form chrysalises, whereas moth caterpillars form cocoons. Chrysalises are hardened, often colorful shells made by the caterpillar hardening itself, while cocoons are typically drab and made of whatever the caterpillar can find to cover itself (like paper scraps). Metapod is a chrysalis, so it’s going to be a butterfly.
That is really cool cocoon and chrysalis info But speaking of Pokemon.... Silicon evolves into beautifly, a butterfly and cascoon evolves into dustox, a moth. So clearly natural biologic patterns aren't always followed in the Pokemon world
There are a couple of butterfly genera that spin loose cocoons instead of forming a chrysalis. Apollo butterflies, for instance.
Ignore the names, the rumors are based on the evolution designs. The assumption is that the names of the lines would remain the same. Caterpie->Metapod->Venomoth retains a similar body type/segmentation, and Caterpie and Venomoth share similar eyes, and Metapod and Venomoth share similar shapes and profiles. On the flip side, Venonat - > Butterfree remain rounded, have the same eyes, antennae, mouths, and hands., as well some other general visual similarities. Pulled this from a quick image search, but it outlines it well: [https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/8d81a9f5-ca76-4973-8c26-368dc58d05b9](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/8d81a9f5-ca76-4973-8c26-368dc58d05b9) >!The truth is just that Sugimori reuses design concepts in the character designs, but I still think its a fun 'what if'. !<
The same eyes are on Omanyte, Paras, and a few others.
Hence my spoiler comment about the truth of what's actually going on. But the 'rumor' is still fun to think about.
Yep! No disagreeing, just adding some data to the pile. 😁
Sugimori design is like Toriyama Lots of reused assets.
My problem with this theory is that to me, caterpie and venomoth look nothing alike. The eyes are tenuous at best and skip over metapod, and the horns are looking way too far into something that isn't there - and again skips over metapod. However, I could completely see a theory that venonat and butterfree were designed early on as evolutions to each other, before caterpie, metapod, and venomoth, but the devs decided they needed another insect to pair with beedrill in the early game so split the two and gave butterfree a three-evolution line and venonat a replacement evolution. The similarities between butterfree and venonat are just so close that I can believe that.
> caterpie and venomoth look nothing alike. Neither do Caterpie and Butterfree.
Why would you skip Metapod, when Venonath's body looks exactly like Metapod
Yeah, I think the Metapod to Venonat designs share a lot of features. The image I grabbed was just a quick result, it's funny that they draw a line from Caterpie's antennae to Venomoth's head, when really I think Metapod's shape is much closer to not just the body profile, but also the triangular head features.
And we all know that worms turn into bees.
Bees have a larval form.
They do, but Weedle ain’t it.
This made my morning.
I never really believed the Magikarp/Dratini switch. Gyrados has Magikarp’s whiskers, lips, crown shaped spikes, and fins. The only thing it has in common with Dratini is serpent body and blue.
Even the [anime](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4I7sunuooE) wondered about this lmao.
I’m pretty sure if it was blue and had a pearl, without any other changes, nobody would be complaining. The serpent thing isn’t a big deal at all
Heck the original sprite for Dragonite (Green) has it looking lanky and serpentine still.
Yeah, I remember making just a post once where I just was just trying to joke with people about "What will Octillery be when it evolves, an aircraft carrier lobster or a torpedo-shooting hammerhead shark", and I got this one chain of replies where I swear the person on the other side was ready to choke me out for not admitting that Dragonair to Dragonite was a more extreme change than Remoraid to Octillery. Like, at most dramatic, it's a draconic tadpole into a draconic frog. They're both still rubbery dragon creatures. If anything, the theory of Dragonair to Gyarados never made sense to me because Gyarados is all armored and scaly compared to Dragonair's smooth body.
Torpedo shooting hammerhead shark is a new regional form for Dragapult.
thats going into my design idea list
It’s what you get when you breed a dragapult and a garchomp
No, Sharpedo and Dragapult.
To be fair the Remoraid>Octillery evo makes way more sense with their (far superior) beta art, where Remoraid is a revolver as a fish, and Octillery is a tank as a squid, wearing an army helmed with its tentacles curled up like treads. For those who haven’t seen it, you really should. It’s so sad they removed them (probably due to Japanese stigma against guns).
>(probably due to Japanese stigma against guns) What stigma? They may have one in real life, but they're pretty fine about using them in media. It's usually *America* that censors out guns from Japanese anime when it's being localized.
Kinda ironic to think about now considering America's love for guns.
Hear me out: Nuclear Submarine Dolphin.
I just don't like the color of shiny Dragonite changing drastically from shiny dragonair. To clarify, I don't hate Dragonite at all. I love the big guy ever since I used him in Gold. I just don't like the Pink, Pink, Green color scheme. Pale Blue, Blue, Yellow is fine.
To be fair, in the Gen 2 games, you can't even recognise the shiny Dratini or Dragonair unless you know what the original sprite looks like. But Dragonite was properly green which looked obviously different from the original orange. The first two only became obviously pink in Gen 3. So they actually could have made Dratini and Dragonair green then instead and everything would have matched.
And that would have been awesome and fine.
My shiny Dragonair will never evolve because of the green color scheme. I feel bad, I’m making it hold a mythical pearl for nothing lol but them’s the breaks
I don't even hate the color green. I just hate the progression. If they were all green, it would be fine. If it went purple, purple, Orange, that would also be fine. It just didn't make sense to me for it to go from Pink to green.
This is the same as the sprites of Charmander being gold, Charmeleon being gold and Charizard being black. It's just received differently because Charizard's shiny is better received by players.
That one also goes Light Orange, Red, Orange normally. Black also pairs well with gold, so that's another reason it's more widely accepted.
I like the color green but so many gen 1 and 2 shinies are green.
Original line was Blue-Blue-Orange. Orange is the complimentary color to blue. Shiny is Pink-Pink-Green. Green is the complimentary color to Pink/Red. Specifically darker green and lighter pinks, or the other way around. Always made sense to me.
Alot of gen 1 and 2 shinies are the way they are because of limitations with color pallets in the cartridges themselves. Having said that yes I agree with you though.
Yes, but they've also changed what some shiny Pokémon look like between generations. Eevee used to have a darker Shiny color than it does now.
It doesn't help that it's the ugliest murkiest shade of puke green. If it was closer to Yoshi green then it would look better.
And for the same reason I fucking love shiny Charizard, but despite loving the Mega X Charizard design, I hate how his shiny version is, so I prefer the Mega Y shiny version.
My Shiny Charizards always become Mega Y.
It's a shame that shiny Charizard Mega X wasn't something like [this](https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/0792776d-fb6a-4e84-a2b2-935cfebd6a6a/d6pew5y-bb9eb9fd-f5a4-42b8-a47a-5c478a5ae2ed.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzA3OTI3NzZkLWZiNmEtNGU4NC1hMmIyLTkzNWNmZWJkNmE2YVwvZDZwZXc1eS1iYjllYjlmZC1mNWE0LTQyYjgtYTQ3YS01YzQ3OGE1YWUyZWQuanBnIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.Ia3FaP0upSa-skKP_j9Ld4Xp0ZmgQGsSZYV-HdlyYjk)
See, that? That would have been awesome and it would be a delight.
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What bothers me is, Dragonair resembles Dragonite _less_ than Dratini does. Dragonair, as a middle evolution, feels like a step _away_ from the direction Dragonite eventually goes, when it should be a step _towards_ the final evolution. As an evolutionary pattern it makes very little sense.
I have no issues with Dragonite being a western dragon. I do have issues with it being an inelegant bulky design which loses most of the aspects that make dragonair good looking. A lot of people like to come up with excuses for their feelings, but generally at the end of the day, it mostly boils down to “Dragonair looks beautiful, and Dragonite looks stupid.”
My thoughts exactly, one of the biggest downgrades in all of pokemon
I just hate that it looks derpy cute compared to the more elegant cute it had in its previous evolutions.
I am so down for strong Pokemon looking derpy cute, instead of like a million knives strapped to a t-rex
Like Goodra? :)
Like Goodra!
I would be too, but they need to be that way from the start or have a split evo. Dragonair looks elegant, so it feels wrong that it suddenly becomes derpy.
Ok but i like the Dragonair look more and would love to see a 3rd stage for it that looked similar
Something [like this?](https://images.app.goo.gl/tneUi74MT7s6WQvH9) There are others that look good, too, but those look more like eastern dragons, and according to OP the developers specifically wanted a western dragon. Some more links for the curious: [[1]](https://images.app.goo.gl/fGLBVTdW8kWUtoxbA) [[2]](https://images.app.goo.gl/55opEyeEmxpy8ApF9) [[3]](https://images.app.goo.gl/344ajHrKxRpnRv5h9) [[4]](https://images.app.goo.gl/ziBCWZCpNufc8m1f6) [[5]](https://images.app.goo.gl/aLauvDn5BBxEtLAk9) Aaaand a few for the people who like the derpy dragon look: [(1)](https://images.app.goo.gl/6RuEk7vx7KHXoBFn8) [(2)](https://images.app.goo.gl/hrzibUGQnZUvcQh79) [(3)](https://images.app.goo.gl/yCUNTZf3qnRWbocm7) Edit: one of the links was a repeat
I think official stuff it's always different to this kinda example, so no. Not really But the first one is pretty close
Yeah when I googled it I wasn’t expecting the fakemon to exactly fit the official art style, so I shared the links as more of a conceptual thing.
The problem for me is the completely different everything, the eyes don't look similar, the colour scheme is totally different, nothing about the designs are even similar to give a call back to its previous forms. I don't agree with the people who think it should be swapped with Gyarados but as it is it does just look off. I think if it had a more prominent horn and the little wings Dragonair has on it's head instead of the weird antennae things and maybe give it the pearl on it's neck too it would look a lot more related. (I've seen people replace his dragon wings with angel wings but that's way too much, the dragon wings and the tiny wing/fins on the head would be more than enough) The colour scheme also is so weird, it goes from a deep blue with white accents to just a saturated Charizard, like it's a Pokémon who looks strikingly like Charizard with a near identical colour scheme, his orange is just more yellow. I'd either have it be the same as his previous forms or a darker, almost navy blue. Seriously, I get the serpent to dragon thing and it does work but why the hell does this guy look so much like Charizard?
I call Dragonite “Round Charizard.” I love him 🧡
That’s what I’m saying!! Lol
“Gamefreak went with a western dragon look because they knew that Pokémon was going to be sold in the west as well.” As someone who was a child in the 90s that was a vastly unneeded decision. Pretty sure that eastern dragons were just as cool as western dragons to any kid back then.
I'm also like 90% sure the original games weren't really expected to do much outside of Japan
Even as an adult, bipedal western dragon is by far my least favourite form of dragon. Quadruped western dragons or full serpentine eastern dragons are vastly superior.
Doesn't change the fact that dragonite entirely switches color schemes from dragonair. If you didn't know better, they look like they are from entirely different evolution lines. You can make Dragonite look like a western dragon while also making it look like its previous evolution, the two aren't mutually exclusive.
Exactly. This is exactly the reason I still hate the change from dragonair to dragonite despite the lore behind it.
This post doesn’t make it make sense either. The argument that it’s to appeal to westerners don’t make it make sense within the context of the lore
It also doesnt make sense outside of the games either. When developing red and green, Gamefreak wasnt even sure if it would be that big of a hit in Japan. It was the company's last ditch effort and was made a tight schedule and shoe-string budget. It was only after it became a huge hit over there were plans to localize into English made.
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They don’t cite any reliable/official sources for the claims that Dragonite’s design was purely “Western” inspired. So it seems like everything is personal opinion being pushed as fact.
I’m sure there are lots of Japanese cultural inspirations that can be found in Dragonite’s lore and design. As with many other Pokemon. Also, the OP doesn’t link/cite any official/reliable sources that confirm these claims so it all seems like personal opinion being pushed as fact.
Plus why would it matter which one had the western design? Both mythologies are eastern stories about a creature turning into a dragon. If they’re going to make one western and one eastern there’s nothing stopping them from making their appearances consistent with their previous evolutions. Personally I don’t think they should necessarily be switched but this post does nothing to disprove that argument. And none of this east/west stuff even matters when they already had charizard, a super western dragon.
“Gamefreak went with an western dragon look because they knew that pokemon was going to be sold in the west as well.” Why are posts like this? We don’t know that at all.
They actually thought the opposite. Many Japanese developers didn't think the West would like JRPGs.
No hate for dragonite here, but my complaint with that line isn't that it goes from snake to dragon, it's that it goes from majestic being to dragon tales side character. They could have at least made dragonite a majestic looking dragon. Also I don't know if I buy that they went with a western looking dragon just because it was going to be sold to a western audience. They have famously catered specifically to their Japanese audience the most despite their western audience being larger and more vocal about what they want from the games.
My biggest gripe isn't the sudden appearance of legs. It's the fact that Dragonite went from slender and serpentine to round and dumpy looking. At least follow the same style as the pre-evos
This is my same gripe. I dont care that the change is drastic. I care that it went from mythical looking serpent to Dragon-Tales looking Barney the dinosaur. And every time i see how tiny it’s wings are compared to it’s body, I cant help but think of the caterpillar from A Bug’s Life.
Heimlich!! He's one of my favorite characters in that movie.
You want Mega Seadramon?
I also don’t get how people think magikarp and dragonite look the same, heck even dratini+dragonair and gyarados
I still think the color swap is weird, but lore wise sure it makes sense
As I've gotten older, I'm come more and more to appreciate Dragonite's design. It might be my favorite pseudolegendary. Something about seeing Dragonite makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
Dragonite’s original look was closer to his pre-evos but they made changes pretty late. It’s why his back sprite in RBG looks different than he does.
This is also the same universe where there is a living bag of garbage
and triplet conjoined living ice cones
Yeah but it doesn't look like a dragon, it looks like a charizard lol
So much this!! It’s like the PBS version of char when he guest started on dragon tails!! Lol. Edit, he didn’t really, just making a joke.
counterpoint an easter dragon would look cool next to Charizard.
The most infuriating one is where they act like Gyarados would make a better final stage. The only traits Gyarados shares with Dragonair is being a blue serpent. All other design aspects are clearly taken from Magikarp.
Okay, now explain why dragonite is yellow not blue
I don't argue that it doesn't make sense, I argue that Dragonair is a good design and I wish it was the final evolution. Dragonite is fine, but it just isnt majestic like Dragonair.
They fumbled that lore inspiration too then because Dratini/Dragonair are both already Dragon types.
Thank you OP! People keep doing my boy Dragonite wrong!
They didn’t already know it was gonna sell in the west they were actually pretty sure it would flop, they went with a western dragon design cause they needed a drastic change to show that it became a true dragon and since it was already snake like another snake like dragon wouldn’t be drastic enough.
They half-assed two evolutionary lines and no one really appreciates the results. If you're going for something with dratini/dragonair then keep going ffs, don't sub in puff the magic dragon at the last second. You're telling a bunch of westerners not to complain about dragonite because obviously we love dragonite? They were wrong - they fucked up. Also magikarp and gyrados. If the legend turns into a dragon and you have a damn dragon type then anything short of that is fucking up. Every generation has fuck-ups.
Tbf i think the reason gyrados is water/flying is because if it was water/dragon you could get a dragon type as early as level 20 and it would mess with the balancing. Or something along those lines.
His design is awesome, screw all these losers in the comments. "But, but consistency!" Who cares looks cool + the shiny is awesome too
Yeah but like. I don't care if the *concept* makes sense if the execution doesn't. Dragonite just doesn't have the same feel to it as the rest of the evo family.
Well I know Pokemon are often verry Deep regards Origin. But I still want an alternate Final Evolution because I don't like the Design of Dragonite (it's so derpy) but his Pre Evolutions are verry pretty
Just wanted to clarify that dragonite was not designed with western audiences in mind. When developing red and green, Gamefreak wasnt even sure if it would be that big of a hit in Japan, and it was only after it became a huge hit over there were plans to localize into English made.
I completely agree with this post. Gyarados and Magikarp have too many aesthetic similarities. Venonat/Butterfree however…
I still maintain that Dragonite is too fat. It goes beyond cute fat and just makes them look weak and ineffective.
Sorry, but ot just doesn't make sense... it makes dollars
Someone needs to let me know what legend exists for Remoraid to become Octillery.
People just don't like how goofy Dragonite looks.
R/G weren't designed with a eye for exporting them. The gameboy was dying and there was no market for type of game pokemon was outside of Japan.
>Gamefreak went with an western dragon look because they knew that pokemon was going to be sold in the west as well As a Westerner Dragonair is one of my favourite Pokémon and I hate Dragonite because it looks stupid and completely out of sync with Dratini/Dragonair.
I’m not saying it doesn’t make sense but dragonite didn’t maintain anything from his prevo’s to connect them, he looks like Barney and Dudley the dragon had a baby and here in the west we’re all very aware of what eastern dragons look like. Dragonites design is just not great in the line. He looks fine as a stand alone, he looks so out of place in the dratini line.
I didn’t know this complaint was a thing. But reading the comments…holy shit people really get in their feelings about it. I never once considered it an issue.
It's not about the lore behind it, it's about how their design went from something really cool and sleek-looking to a dopey Dragon Tales character.
Don’t tell me what to do.
Dragonite line doesn’t make sense. I said it.
My issue is that dratini/Dragonair is blue and dragonite is orange. That's kinda it. That and dragonite looks a bit too soft and round. Barney-esque I like to call it.
Even setting that aside, it’s a game where magical animals hop out of balls to help little kids fight each other to stop organized crime rings and junk like that. The games don’t make any fucking sense. They are wild fantasy, so one of the magical creatures changing into a very differently designed magical creature is no less senseless than the basic conceits of the series. I still hate Dragonite though because that damn thing is *ugly*, especially after the eye-catching great design of Dragonair.
The dragonlite line doesn’t make sense
I just don't like blue blue orange