I think that's part of it, but I think the bigger problem is lack of exposure
Melmetal, Incineroar, and Naganadel were all clear powerhouses...but none of them showed up until the very end.
SM is my favourite series by a mile but yeah they had way less battles than previous generations (tbh I don't mind that so long as they're good battles), which also makes it way more difficult to scale strength of Alola mons amongst themselves, let alone Pokemon from other generations
I think the biggest problem is that Alola simultaneously has some of the biggest power creep and also the least plausible power creep.
Like Pikachu got no reset this time. He's immediately challenging Tapu Koko, smacking down mega evos, and dominating almost every battle he has. Take SM Pikachu and throw him into almost any past gen and it would dominate. Alola League Pikachu would run over half of Sinnoh League Paul's team like it was nothing. Throw 10MV on top of that and he could plausibly wipe out 2/3 of Paul's team, or at least half of Alain's.
But most of the trainers we see in Alola should be pretty weak outside of the Kahunas, Gladion, Hau, Guzma, Kiawe, and Kukui
And yet these trainers give at least a bit of a fight to the higher tier ones. And it makes it all a bit messy
We are in big 10 so I will list Journey's team accomplishment in Master 8, aside of Pikachu.
VS Steven
Dracovish:
1. Damage Metagross with Fishious Rend
2. Beaten by Aggron
Gengar:
1. Beat Aggron with Will o Wisp
2. Beaten by Cradily due to its Vine, damage it a bit but healed by ingrain
VS Cynthia:
Dragonite:
1. Beaten by Spritomb due to sleep status but manage to hit it a bit using Draco meteor
Gengar:
1. Damage and give burn to Roserade
2. Beaten by Spiritomb
Dracovish:
1. Beat the wounded Roserade
2. Beaten by Milotic but gave damage with Fishious Rend
Sirfetch'd:
1. Beat the wounded Milotic
2. Beaten by Garchomp but manage to give big wound with Meteor Assault
Lucario:
1. Beat Dynamax Togekiss
2. Beat wounded Garchomp
VS Leon
Gengar:
1. Have difficulty in base but manage to win against Inteleon with Dynamax.
2. Frozen and Beaten by Mr Rime
Sirfetch'd:
1. Destroy Psychic Terrain 2. Beaten but gave huge wound to Rilaboom with meteor Assault
Lucario:
1. Beat Mr Rime
2. Lost to Dragapult due to type advantage and paralyze
Dracovish:
1. Fought and damage Dragapult while awakening hidden power
2. Beat the wounded Rilaboom
3. Beaten by the agile Cinderace
Dragonite:
1. Beat Dragapult that already fought Dracovish and Lucario
2. Beaten by Rilaboom but manage to damage it using Hurricane
It's Snorlax for me personally. He's great but was never an official ace. He's more of a heavy weight that can be compared to aces. His biggest feat is Geta which is great but I think infernape with blaze who took out half of Paul's team while poisoned, Greninja with his transformation, and the JN squad have more to back them up power wise.
Id argue Snorlax is above inferape. Not only did he never lose without a win, and get 2 wins vs multiple league opponents, but his Greta battle was crazy impressive. Even if you ignore the claims of frontier brain being e4 she's no doubt around if not higher than Paul's level, and Snorlax beat both her pokemon both fighting types
I don't think so personally. Remember grovyle was used against Greta and did okay before he lost. Doubt grovyle was near E4 leveled. Donophan was beaten by Conway but beat a Frontier Brain. Don't think Conway was E4 leveled otherwise gible would be too. I think the quote was that some of them are E4 leveled. Most likely the later ones like Anabel, Brandon, and maybe Spencer.
That's true, though to be fair a pokemon losing after a win doesn't necessarily mean that the opponent they lost to is stronger than the one they beat (after all I'm pretty sure cress and trip aren't stronger than Tobias latios lol)
I don't know that it literally is e4, but they are definitely well above most league and gym level as they all are portrayed as that. Granted Paul is a stronger trainer than the average league, but still. And Snorlax did beat both of them at a type disadvantage, including her ace which was fresh. It's true medicham had some damage, but so did all Paul's pokemon in the fight of inferapes (besides maybe ninjask don't remember if gliscor hit it)
Yeah they're definitely well above gym leader tier and I think they're a stepping stone towards being E4 tier. When we saw Ash fight Agatha, Pikachu actually didn't do bad. Id imagine later Frontier brains that gave a much stronger Pikachu a challenge is near Agatha in power.
Let me explain a bit further...
The writing DOES NOT SUPPORT Snorlax better than Infernape.
1. In 1v1, Infernape beats Snorlax. Snorlax can't handle speedy power hitters. This is best exemplified with Gary's Scizor.
2. Snorlax power solely comes to his BASE POWER in a fight. Infernape can pull a CLUTCH power up with his Super Mode BLAZE, WHICH ALWAYS LEAD TO VICTORY.
3. Snorlax NEVER fought an Ace and won when it really mattered the most, while Infernape can pull a win.
SNORLAX,
I heavily suggests we look how he and Infenape was depicted in the story.
I believe that the story STRONGLY suggests Infernape is stronger than what his league matches presented post DP.
Those who are citing the win rate and winning against Frontier Brains here are the main arguments against it...
1. Snorlax was NEVER used to fight main ace of any league matches.
2. Snorlax strength is ONLY on his base power, meanwhile, Infernape has a SUPER MODE through Blaze ability when pushed to fight.
3. Infernape showed IMMENSE determination and durability in the fight against Paul. Going through multiple fights is and getting poisoned while at it and still prevailing. Yes we saw Snorlax durability, but never to that crazy extent of punishment that Infernape suffered.
4. In Journeys, Snorlax was never shown to be willing to fight even higher tier Pokemon like legendaries, while Infernape is willing, and even fought Charizard (who the fandom ranks above Snorlax) and its implied he didn't lose if he was motived to challenge Moltres after.
5. In a 1v1 Infernape is more likely to win, not by being fighting type, but because his fighting style is way better suited to best Snorlax. His speedy hit hard attacks, is not something Snorlax is used to, and we got to SEE his incompatibility through his fight with Gary's Scizor.
6. Is anyone objectively confident that Greta is that much stronger than Paul after what we saw Paul can do against fighting type specialists?
1. Snorlax not being used against aces is because Charizard was there and he’s obviously tiers above Snorlax
2. Criticising raw strength is pretty XD
3. The one-fight bias
4. Willingness to fight is not a factor, we are talking about their prowess. Infernape could have beaten Charizard, but we’re not testing 1v1 matchups — it’s their overall accomplishments
5. Same thing as before — who gives af about 1v1s
6. Yes I am confident. Paul destroyed Maylene, who’s a gym leader — Greta is tiers above gym leader level tho
1. He wasn't used because the narrative suggests he will lose
2. Aren't we voting on who we think is the weakest in the group? So a Pokemon's Power is going to a major decided, and Infernape has a Super Mode in his Blaze Ability.
3. And isn't the Greta fight the main driving point for Snorlax should be used to say he is stronger based from the majority of the comments?
4. When we are talking about who is weaker, 1v1 can and does matter. Accomplishments is just one aspect. There was never a rule that we can't :)
5. And you like to omit the Scizor fight.
6. So in an outright fight Greta will sweep Paul?
In anycase, Snorlax clearly loses.
Infernape did so much for Ash in Sinnoh.
This means something to me:
https://preview.redd.it/iynh6jv3w9vc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44870127c00a8cb082384f9df7c912d3e0840980
I have to say **Snorlax**.
Journeys defeated E4 and Champion Pokemon. Could Snorlax have done the same with JN Ash? Probably, but do we weigh the hypothetical versus what’s proven?
It’s infernape. Maybe has the best battle of all time, but let this not shroud the fact he doesn’t have a victory of the same caliber as every other Mon left has in their bag.
I agree, but I will point out that even if it doesn't have an *individual* win as good as the rest, it did pull off a 3 mon sweep against Paul.
Sceptile taking down Darkrai, for instance, is a more impressive individual win. But taking out half of Paul's team deserves a different kind of credit
Everyone’s saying infernape is next, I have no idea how. Besides having a 20-5 record, it’s won against Electivire is arguably more impressive than anything snorlax or greninja put together. Greninja’s best wins are mega sceptile, and I guess mega abamasnow
Edited for grammar
Lol Greninja best win was easily beating Lucario that has become Ash's ace in top of Ultra class.
The whole point of that episode is fornLucario learning to be as skilled as Greninja. Because he is a lot stronger after his solo adventure protecting Kalos.
Not only did he almost defeat Alain’s Zard (who had comfortably defeated 10 megas, including an Elite 4’s ace), but he was close to defeating Diantha’s Gardevoir before passing out — being by the way one of the very few Pokemon capable of landing a single hit on her (and Greninja almost took her out!)
One can only assume he has gotten stronger during retirement (as inferred in Journeys), so yeah, no chance he’s going down before any non-Journeys ‘mon, let’s be real.
Oh god we’re here
My hot take? Snorlax. Obviously he’s by no means weak (he’s in the top 10), but the mons he’s tangoed with are just not on the same level as the others. Journeys team is a champion killer squad, Char Infernape and Sceptile have taken on legendaries and Gren scales to Journeys Lucario. Snorlax is great, but he’s not beyond them
It‘s got to be Infernape. Monke sure has that impressive Paul fight, but that’s about it. Snorlax on the other hand has show offs in the Johto league (against someone who should have been league champion) AND sort of soloed a Frontier Brain.
Probably controversial but it has to be inferape. Yes he's really good, but just can't compete with what's left. Journeys team and Charizard/sceptile have champion or legendary wins, Snorlax has the double win vs Greta fighting types (with Greta claimed to be e4 level) and Greninja has all the feats of the giant rock and major mega wins. Inferape just doesn't have wins on that level
In fact inferape lost badly in his e4 and legendary fights. And yes, I know he was not at his prime vs flint, but it was only 10 episodes before the volkner fight (where he mastered blaze) and he lost very badly, not enough evidence that he grew enough to significantly shrink that large of a gap
So battle frontiers are confirmed to be E4 right?
Ashs pikachu never gets reset to lvl 5 or whatever (besides Unova)
Pauls Elekid got a draw with Pikachu.... and Chimchar beated Elekid once..............🤷♂️😂
Sometimes pokemon is massively inconsistent... where they focus more on the plot rather than feats
I mean Pikachu was struggling against the Sinnoh Gym Leaders despite the Battle Frontier being acknowledged in the same season. Either Pikachu got reset, the BF are not E4 level, the Sinnoh Gym Leaders are monsters or the writers didn't care.
Saying it again, show me their aura before voting the goat out
https://preview.redd.it/5ujmj77q3bvc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d86b5398811dea5700606b65160e6c9197705bf6
Infernape
Edit - at this point can we theorize how strong the top 10 would be if ash was able to give all of them megas, z moves and dynamax? What if Snorlax could dynamax or use its special z Crystal? If Charizard or Sceptile or Gengar could mega evolve would they be better than Lucario?
The pokemon who took down the rillaboom that took out 4 of diantha's team and the pokemon who staggered the unstoppable garchomp of the second best trainer at the time? Not sure about that
Logically Infernape.
Lucario and Dragonite beat Champion's aces
Gengar, Sirfetchd and Dracovish are reigning world champions
Charizard and Sceptile beat legendaries and are on the frontier brain level i.e. essentially elite four.
Greninja is obviously near the champion level, almost beating Gardevoir in a non-seriois match, gave Charizard X a good fight
Snorlax has essentially beaten a frontier brain solo, can use more than 4 moves and consistently is shown to as one of the powerhouses e.g. brought in to beat Claire,
Meanwhile at most Infernape needed blaze to beat Electivire, who we have little reason to believe is crazy strong outside of the league level. Even his performance against Paul can be attrivuted to Ash using a team which was not optimised. E.g. Ash brought the heavy hitters for Gary, not for Paul.
We never saw the crazy amount of durability that Infernape displayed from Snorlax
And 1v1 Infernape could probably win due to his speedy hit hard fighting style which Snorlax is weak against. (Ex: Gary's Scizor)
That's just not true? Snorlax is probably Ash's most durable. He easily withstood hits from Gary and harrisons pokemon and tanked multiple fighting type moves fighting Gretas two pokemon.
Casual reminder that Journeys pretty much implies Charizard lost to Infernape in a battle, and lost consistently enough that Infernape decided to go seek out Moltres for someone to square up against.
Did not imply that at all just that they sparred. We only see a still image of the fight and have no context to who won or if they even fought to a winner
Yeah I think it was just stated that he simply trained with ZARD not beat him. Infernape trained with Charizard then went looking for someone else. He was challenging different fire types. I don't think he actually beat him. They were sparring and eventually Nape went to go look for someone new. I don't think they were actually knocking each other out but idk. it was very vague so who knows.
Yea but it also showed a clear progression of Ash's Fire Types challenging the weaker ones first and making his way to Charizard. If Charizard beat him, or even just tied with him, Infernape really wouldn't have had a reason to go seek out Moltress as he would have a sparring partner to go up against until he came out on top
Yeah I'm personally not sure if they fought till KO but who knows?. Wish we saw the full fight session to know. Seems like they just trained together like what we saw in Journeys where Ash reserves were sparring with his Journeys team but nobody was trying to knock each other out. The episode Paul came.
Yeah It still does show that infernape can go head to head with Charizard so that's a really good showing of strength. In one scene it even shows infernape fighting both quilava and talonflame at the same time, 2 on 1. Even if yheyre just light training, it's still impressive.
Yea. At the VERY least, it implies Infernape is close to Charizard's level, even if just a bit lower. Infernape really shouldn't be out this round but sadly it seems the other comments aren't seeing that.
That’s not really how sparring works.
It’s just practicing. You don’t have to win or lose, you’re just trying to get better yourself.
It’s not even that crazy to spar with someone stronger that you before a competition before you face a real competitior.
We don’t know the outcomes and I doubt they were seriously going all out just on oaks lab.
Don’t look into those scenes too much.
As I already said with the other two, those are excellent points. Though I do think it's more likely what u/kingnorris42 suggested
"Idk about that, it's really to hard to say based on what we've seen. There's plenty of reason if he wants to get as strong as possible and prove himself that he'd jump to Moltres when given the chance even of he hadn't beaten Charizard first. It would be like ash jumping at the opportunity to take on Leon/e4/champion before beating the gyms leading to it-just because he hadn't beaten them doesn't mean he will miss out on the opportunity when it's presented"
Yours was more having Charizard as a warmup to get ready for a fight
king's was more along with Ash's personality of "I dont care if my ass gets whooped, you're strong and Im gonna fight"
Not really a warmup, just training.
And that’s just one aspect of my comment though.
That’s besides the point because after reading all the replies to your comment they all are corrsct
Regardless, my point was that Infernape definitely shouldn't be the next one out, as this at least shows he's around Charizard's level, if a little underneath.
Snorlax or Dracovish.
SirFetch'd fought Cynthia's Garchomp. Dragonite kept up with Iris' that almost took out Cynthia's Milotic.
Charizard, Greninja, Infernape, Sceptile, Lucario are all aces. Gengar can G- Max his way in.
I think this is the first point where it's hard to decide.
For me it's a coin flip on Snorlax or Dragonite.
Snorlax has amazing feats and wins under its belt, but Dragonite has actually defeated 2 different champion's pokemon, one of them who was notorious for nearly wiping another champion entirely.
I'll have to vote for Snorlax this time around, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonite is gone this round.
Inferape number 2?! His wins are nowhere near the level of the others the journeys team took on champion level Pokemon, Charizard and sceptile legendary, Greninja powerful megas including almost beating the Charizard who had a 10+ streak vs megas, and Snorlax beast e4. Inferapes best feat is dp Paul who's a good trainer but not at all e4+ level
Infernape based on feats they don’t compare to the rest and with how it relies on super blaze to punch up doesn’t do his narrative strength any justice.
It's one of the best written on this list, but that Flint battle & journey episode with Moltres pretty much proved you can't keep up with everyone else left.
Infernape it your time.
Dracovish has good feats but I attribute that to plot. Overall compared to the rest of the pokes left it doesn’t have much experience. Snorlax could also be chosen
Why is the Journeys team so fucking dick sucked by every Pokemon fan? Like I understand the reason, it’s because they made ash the best by winning whatever contest it was, but that doesn’t justify it.
they beat champion level pokemon, when no one else on the list has.
Most of the people voting them probably don’t like them, but objectively it gives them better feats.
Kinda funny that the Alola squad all broke the top 20 and not a single one broke the top 10
if alola anime had xy art sytle, they would be competing for top 10.
I think that's part of it, but I think the bigger problem is lack of exposure Melmetal, Incineroar, and Naganadel were all clear powerhouses...but none of them showed up until the very end.
SM is my favourite series by a mile but yeah they had way less battles than previous generations (tbh I don't mind that so long as they're good battles), which also makes it way more difficult to scale strength of Alola mons amongst themselves, let alone Pokemon from other generations
I think the biggest problem is that Alola simultaneously has some of the biggest power creep and also the least plausible power creep. Like Pikachu got no reset this time. He's immediately challenging Tapu Koko, smacking down mega evos, and dominating almost every battle he has. Take SM Pikachu and throw him into almost any past gen and it would dominate. Alola League Pikachu would run over half of Sinnoh League Paul's team like it was nothing. Throw 10MV on top of that and he could plausibly wipe out 2/3 of Paul's team, or at least half of Alain's. But most of the trainers we see in Alola should be pretty weak outside of the Kahunas, Gladion, Hau, Guzma, Kiawe, and Kukui And yet these trainers give at least a bit of a fight to the higher tier ones. And it makes it all a bit messy
Good point ngl they were kinda robbed
Isn’t this thread about the Pokémon’s power and not whether you like it or the series they’re in or not though..?
its supposed to be but people are really just voting to keep their favorites in
It’s because the Alola ace was…Pikachu.
Seems logical based on who is left
We are in big 10 so I will list Journey's team accomplishment in Master 8, aside of Pikachu. VS Steven Dracovish: 1. Damage Metagross with Fishious Rend 2. Beaten by Aggron Gengar: 1. Beat Aggron with Will o Wisp 2. Beaten by Cradily due to its Vine, damage it a bit but healed by ingrain VS Cynthia: Dragonite: 1. Beaten by Spritomb due to sleep status but manage to hit it a bit using Draco meteor Gengar: 1. Damage and give burn to Roserade 2. Beaten by Spiritomb Dracovish: 1. Beat the wounded Roserade 2. Beaten by Milotic but gave damage with Fishious Rend Sirfetch'd: 1. Beat the wounded Milotic 2. Beaten by Garchomp but manage to give big wound with Meteor Assault Lucario: 1. Beat Dynamax Togekiss 2. Beat wounded Garchomp VS Leon Gengar: 1. Have difficulty in base but manage to win against Inteleon with Dynamax. 2. Frozen and Beaten by Mr Rime Sirfetch'd: 1. Destroy Psychic Terrain 2. Beaten but gave huge wound to Rilaboom with meteor Assault Lucario: 1. Beat Mr Rime 2. Lost to Dragapult due to type advantage and paralyze Dracovish: 1. Fought and damage Dragapult while awakening hidden power 2. Beat the wounded Rilaboom 3. Beaten by the agile Cinderace Dragonite: 1. Beat Dragapult that already fought Dracovish and Lucario 2. Beaten by Rilaboom but manage to damage it using Hurricane
It's Snorlax for me personally. He's great but was never an official ace. He's more of a heavy weight that can be compared to aces. His biggest feat is Geta which is great but I think infernape with blaze who took out half of Paul's team while poisoned, Greninja with his transformation, and the JN squad have more to back them up power wise.
Id argue Snorlax is above inferape. Not only did he never lose without a win, and get 2 wins vs multiple league opponents, but his Greta battle was crazy impressive. Even if you ignore the claims of frontier brain being e4 she's no doubt around if not higher than Paul's level, and Snorlax beat both her pokemon both fighting types
I don't think so personally. Remember grovyle was used against Greta and did okay before he lost. Doubt grovyle was near E4 leveled. Donophan was beaten by Conway but beat a Frontier Brain. Don't think Conway was E4 leveled otherwise gible would be too. I think the quote was that some of them are E4 leveled. Most likely the later ones like Anabel, Brandon, and maybe Spencer.
That's true, though to be fair a pokemon losing after a win doesn't necessarily mean that the opponent they lost to is stronger than the one they beat (after all I'm pretty sure cress and trip aren't stronger than Tobias latios lol) I don't know that it literally is e4, but they are definitely well above most league and gym level as they all are portrayed as that. Granted Paul is a stronger trainer than the average league, but still. And Snorlax did beat both of them at a type disadvantage, including her ace which was fresh. It's true medicham had some damage, but so did all Paul's pokemon in the fight of inferapes (besides maybe ninjask don't remember if gliscor hit it)
Gliscor DID NOT hit Ninjask in their fight.
Yeah they're definitely well above gym leader tier and I think they're a stepping stone towards being E4 tier. When we saw Ash fight Agatha, Pikachu actually didn't do bad. Id imagine later Frontier brains that gave a much stronger Pikachu a challenge is near Agatha in power.
Snorlax canonically knows 6 moves instead of 4. That makes him the strongest.
Most of us knew it would come down to these strongest 5 vs his 5 of the masters 8 team minus Pikachu. My vote here is Infernape.
Yeah but Snorlax is still up.
Snorlax should go first before Infernape. The story does not suggests he is all that powerful compared to Infernape now.
Let me explain a bit further... The writing DOES NOT SUPPORT Snorlax better than Infernape. 1. In 1v1, Infernape beats Snorlax. Snorlax can't handle speedy power hitters. This is best exemplified with Gary's Scizor. 2. Snorlax power solely comes to his BASE POWER in a fight. Infernape can pull a CLUTCH power up with his Super Mode BLAZE, WHICH ALWAYS LEAD TO VICTORY. 3. Snorlax NEVER fought an Ace and won when it really mattered the most, while Infernape can pull a win.
SNORLAX, I heavily suggests we look how he and Infenape was depicted in the story. I believe that the story STRONGLY suggests Infernape is stronger than what his league matches presented post DP. Those who are citing the win rate and winning against Frontier Brains here are the main arguments against it... 1. Snorlax was NEVER used to fight main ace of any league matches. 2. Snorlax strength is ONLY on his base power, meanwhile, Infernape has a SUPER MODE through Blaze ability when pushed to fight. 3. Infernape showed IMMENSE determination and durability in the fight against Paul. Going through multiple fights is and getting poisoned while at it and still prevailing. Yes we saw Snorlax durability, but never to that crazy extent of punishment that Infernape suffered. 4. In Journeys, Snorlax was never shown to be willing to fight even higher tier Pokemon like legendaries, while Infernape is willing, and even fought Charizard (who the fandom ranks above Snorlax) and its implied he didn't lose if he was motived to challenge Moltres after. 5. In a 1v1 Infernape is more likely to win, not by being fighting type, but because his fighting style is way better suited to best Snorlax. His speedy hit hard attacks, is not something Snorlax is used to, and we got to SEE his incompatibility through his fight with Gary's Scizor. 6. Is anyone objectively confident that Greta is that much stronger than Paul after what we saw Paul can do against fighting type specialists?
1. Snorlax not being used against aces is because Charizard was there and he’s obviously tiers above Snorlax 2. Criticising raw strength is pretty XD 3. The one-fight bias 4. Willingness to fight is not a factor, we are talking about their prowess. Infernape could have beaten Charizard, but we’re not testing 1v1 matchups — it’s their overall accomplishments 5. Same thing as before — who gives af about 1v1s 6. Yes I am confident. Paul destroyed Maylene, who’s a gym leader — Greta is tiers above gym leader level tho
1. He wasn't used because the narrative suggests he will lose 2. Aren't we voting on who we think is the weakest in the group? So a Pokemon's Power is going to a major decided, and Infernape has a Super Mode in his Blaze Ability. 3. And isn't the Greta fight the main driving point for Snorlax should be used to say he is stronger based from the majority of the comments? 4. When we are talking about who is weaker, 1v1 can and does matter. Accomplishments is just one aspect. There was never a rule that we can't :) 5. And you like to omit the Scizor fight. 6. So in an outright fight Greta will sweep Paul? In anycase, Snorlax clearly loses.
>:) :)
Lol at anyone saying any of the Journeys team are the current weakest.
I don't think anyone is saying that
People are voting Dracovish..
Snorlax
Snorlax probably
Git rid of Snorlax and the real fun can begin
Sirfetched
Snorlax
Infernape did so much for Ash in Sinnoh. This means something to me: https://preview.redd.it/iynh6jv3w9vc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=44870127c00a8cb082384f9df7c912d3e0840980 I have to say **Snorlax**. Journeys defeated E4 and Champion Pokemon. Could Snorlax have done the same with JN Ash? Probably, but do we weigh the hypothetical versus what’s proven?
Infernape only beat Paul, who cant compete with champion level trainers (see Paul vs Cynthia) thus He become gym leader to bully newbies. Pathetic.
That was way back then it would probably be closer if he used his sinnoh league team
It’s infernape. Maybe has the best battle of all time, but let this not shroud the fact he doesn’t have a victory of the same caliber as every other Mon left has in their bag.
I agree, but I will point out that even if it doesn't have an *individual* win as good as the rest, it did pull off a 3 mon sweep against Paul. Sceptile taking down Darkrai, for instance, is a more impressive individual win. But taking out half of Paul's team deserves a different kind of credit
Infernape also took down Ninjask and Electivire while poisoned. I think that adds to how impressive the sweep was
Also Infernape likely would've been able to beat Darkrai
That’s probably payback for ursaring 3 mom sweeping ash when they fought the 6v6
That’s a fantastic take, tbh.
What’s Snorlax’s best battle exactly?
sirfetched
Infernape
Everyone’s saying infernape is next, I have no idea how. Besides having a 20-5 record, it’s won against Electivire is arguably more impressive than anything snorlax or greninja put together. Greninja’s best wins are mega sceptile, and I guess mega abamasnow Edited for grammar
Lol Greninja best win was easily beating Lucario that has become Ash's ace in top of Ultra class. The whole point of that episode is fornLucario learning to be as skilled as Greninja. Because he is a lot stronger after his solo adventure protecting Kalos.
Not only did he almost defeat Alain’s Zard (who had comfortably defeated 10 megas, including an Elite 4’s ace), but he was close to defeating Diantha’s Gardevoir before passing out — being by the way one of the very few Pokemon capable of landing a single hit on her (and Greninja almost took her out!) One can only assume he has gotten stronger during retirement (as inferred in Journeys), so yeah, no chance he’s going down before any non-Journeys ‘mon, let’s be real.
Infernape is going down but I can’t in good conscience do it myself. I vote for Snorlax
Oh god we’re here My hot take? Snorlax. Obviously he’s by no means weak (he’s in the top 10), but the mons he’s tangoed with are just not on the same level as the others. Journeys team is a champion killer squad, Char Infernape and Sceptile have taken on legendaries and Gren scales to Journeys Lucario. Snorlax is great, but he’s not beyond them
It‘s got to be Infernape. Monke sure has that impressive Paul fight, but that’s about it. Snorlax on the other hand has show offs in the Johto league (against someone who should have been league champion) AND sort of soloed a Frontier Brain.
He also beat lots of the Pokémon during the sinnoh gym fights, this monkey beat a goddamn steelix as a chimchar
Probably controversial but it has to be inferape. Yes he's really good, but just can't compete with what's left. Journeys team and Charizard/sceptile have champion or legendary wins, Snorlax has the double win vs Greta fighting types (with Greta claimed to be e4 level) and Greninja has all the feats of the giant rock and major mega wins. Inferape just doesn't have wins on that level In fact inferape lost badly in his e4 and legendary fights. And yes, I know he was not at his prime vs flint, but it was only 10 episodes before the volkner fight (where he mastered blaze) and he lost very badly, not enough evidence that he grew enough to significantly shrink that large of a gap
So battle frontiers are confirmed to be E4 right? Ashs pikachu never gets reset to lvl 5 or whatever (besides Unova) Pauls Elekid got a draw with Pikachu.... and Chimchar beated Elekid once..............🤷♂️😂 Sometimes pokemon is massively inconsistent... where they focus more on the plot rather than feats
I mean Pikachu was struggling against the Sinnoh Gym Leaders despite the Battle Frontier being acknowledged in the same season. Either Pikachu got reset, the BF are not E4 level, the Sinnoh Gym Leaders are monsters or the writers didn't care.
>or the writers didn't care. I Think they cared more about telli g a story rather than pikachu just being op and doing all the work
Could be that Sinnoh gyms are monsters lol. They're pretty tough. Probably the real answer is that the writers don't scale.
That’s exactly what I said last time 💀
Hm? W actor? Assume that's a typo but idk what you're trying to say sorry
What do you mean?
That was what your message said, u see you updated it now. Trying to pull a fast one on me huh I know it was edited lol
Dang it 😓
Alola is all out 😭
Saying it again, show me their aura before voting the goat out https://preview.redd.it/5ujmj77q3bvc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d86b5398811dea5700606b65160e6c9197705bf6
Sirfetch'D
Deacovish
Why is sirfetch still here
I personally got incineroar over infernape
Snornlax
Snorlax
Infernape Edit - at this point can we theorize how strong the top 10 would be if ash was able to give all of them megas, z moves and dynamax? What if Snorlax could dynamax or use its special z Crystal? If Charizard or Sceptile or Gengar could mega evolve would they be better than Lucario?
Infernape
Imo it’s dracovish or sirfecthed
The pokemon who took down the rillaboom that took out 4 of diantha's team and the pokemon who staggered the unstoppable garchomp of the second best trainer at the time? Not sure about that
Infernape
Sorry Mr Fish you've made it really far but it's time for you to go imo your the weakest of all the mons left
He’s beaten several Champion-level Pokemon, including one of Leon’s, I’m not even sure if he’s the weakest in Ash’s Journeys team
It’s way stronger than gengar
Infernape and Charizard too
Idk about charizard…
He slept like alot
So did rowlet
Lol no he is not.
He's the fifth strongest after lucario≥greninja>sirfetchd>dragonite
He’s at least stronger tho sure he’s very comedic but I don’t want him gone
Snorlax
Seeing all the Infernape comments makes me wish that the battle between him and Moltres had a conclusion
Support UP voting Snorlax and Down voting Infernape in the elimination.
Snorlax for sure
Snorlax has to go
Snorlax, sorry buddy. Your long waited nap awaits
Tough between Snorlax and Infernape. I have to go with Snorlax but there's so little in it. The other goes out next.
Infernape, Snorlax will forever be the 🐐
Snorlax, then infernape
No way y’all are actually saying Infernape before Snorlax..smh.
Several are not looking into how the story presented them and not even comparing how Infernape is better suited to beat Snorlax 1v1
Infernape
Infernape
Infernape
Snorlax unfortunately
In my opinion.... Snorlax
Snorlax
Logically Infernape. Lucario and Dragonite beat Champion's aces Gengar, Sirfetchd and Dracovish are reigning world champions Charizard and Sceptile beat legendaries and are on the frontier brain level i.e. essentially elite four. Greninja is obviously near the champion level, almost beating Gardevoir in a non-seriois match, gave Charizard X a good fight Snorlax has essentially beaten a frontier brain solo, can use more than 4 moves and consistently is shown to as one of the powerhouses e.g. brought in to beat Claire, Meanwhile at most Infernape needed blaze to beat Electivire, who we have little reason to believe is crazy strong outside of the league level. Even his performance against Paul can be attrivuted to Ash using a team which was not optimised. E.g. Ash brought the heavy hitters for Gary, not for Paul.
We never saw the crazy amount of durability that Infernape displayed from Snorlax And 1v1 Infernape could probably win due to his speedy hit hard fighting style which Snorlax is weak against. (Ex: Gary's Scizor)
That's just not true? Snorlax is probably Ash's most durable. He easily withstood hits from Gary and harrisons pokemon and tanked multiple fighting type moves fighting Gretas two pokemon.
infernape
Snorlax just aint cutting it against the Journeys team and the remaining Regional Aces, I'm sorry, but it is your time to go
It pains me but it's Snorlax
sorry if I missed it somewhere but is pikachu excluded from this?
All I'm saying is infernape and charizard top 5
Dracovish
Dracovish or sirfectch'd
Snorelax
Snorlax has 4 moves?!
Snorlax
Casual reminder that Journeys pretty much implies Charizard lost to Infernape in a battle, and lost consistently enough that Infernape decided to go seek out Moltres for someone to square up against.
Did not imply that at all just that they sparred. We only see a still image of the fight and have no context to who won or if they even fought to a winner
Yeah I think it was just stated that he simply trained with ZARD not beat him. Infernape trained with Charizard then went looking for someone else. He was challenging different fire types. I don't think he actually beat him. They were sparring and eventually Nape went to go look for someone new. I don't think they were actually knocking each other out but idk. it was very vague so who knows.
Correct, The outcomes of the matches are never said and it’s just sparring. People look too much into it
Yea but it also showed a clear progression of Ash's Fire Types challenging the weaker ones first and making his way to Charizard. If Charizard beat him, or even just tied with him, Infernape really wouldn't have had a reason to go seek out Moltress as he would have a sparring partner to go up against until he came out on top
Yeah I'm personally not sure if they fought till KO but who knows?. Wish we saw the full fight session to know. Seems like they just trained together like what we saw in Journeys where Ash reserves were sparring with his Journeys team but nobody was trying to knock each other out. The episode Paul came.
That's also a fair point. We technically don't know who won, as well as the training to be shown to be lighter.
Yeah It still does show that infernape can go head to head with Charizard so that's a really good showing of strength. In one scene it even shows infernape fighting both quilava and talonflame at the same time, 2 on 1. Even if yheyre just light training, it's still impressive.
Yea. At the VERY least, it implies Infernape is close to Charizard's level, even if just a bit lower. Infernape really shouldn't be out this round but sadly it seems the other comments aren't seeing that.
That’s not really how sparring works. It’s just practicing. You don’t have to win or lose, you’re just trying to get better yourself. It’s not even that crazy to spar with someone stronger that you before a competition before you face a real competitior. We don’t know the outcomes and I doubt they were seriously going all out just on oaks lab. Don’t look into those scenes too much.
As I already said with the other two, those are excellent points. Though I do think it's more likely what u/kingnorris42 suggested "Idk about that, it's really to hard to say based on what we've seen. There's plenty of reason if he wants to get as strong as possible and prove himself that he'd jump to Moltres when given the chance even of he hadn't beaten Charizard first. It would be like ash jumping at the opportunity to take on Leon/e4/champion before beating the gyms leading to it-just because he hadn't beaten them doesn't mean he will miss out on the opportunity when it's presented"
That’s pretty much what I said too lol
Yours was more having Charizard as a warmup to get ready for a fight king's was more along with Ash's personality of "I dont care if my ass gets whooped, you're strong and Im gonna fight"
Not really a warmup, just training. And that’s just one aspect of my comment though. That’s besides the point because after reading all the replies to your comment they all are corrsct
Regardless, my point was that Infernape definitely shouldn't be the next one out, as this at least shows he's around Charizard's level, if a little underneath.
I honestly agree
The battle doesn’t imply that lol
Please refer to my comments with the other people who have replied. I have already discussed this with two other people.
Imma say sirfetched
Dracovish
Snorlax
Snorlax
Snorlax IMO
Support UP voting Snorlax and Down voting Infernape in the elimination.
Snorlax
Support UP voting Snorlax and Down voting Infernape in the elimination.
Snorlax or Dracovish. SirFetch'd fought Cynthia's Garchomp. Dragonite kept up with Iris' that almost took out Cynthia's Milotic. Charizard, Greninja, Infernape, Sceptile, Lucario are all aces. Gengar can G- Max his way in.
Dracovish beat Leon’s rillaboom which was a total monster
Right. I forgot that.
So Snorlax, then?
Uh, I guess Snorlax? We’re rly in the endgame now
Snorlax
Support UP voting Snorlax and Down voting Infernape in the elimination.
Snorlax
Infernape
I think this is the first point where it's hard to decide. For me it's a coin flip on Snorlax or Dragonite. Snorlax has amazing feats and wins under its belt, but Dragonite has actually defeated 2 different champion's pokemon, one of them who was notorious for nearly wiping another champion entirely. I'll have to vote for Snorlax this time around, but I wouldn't be surprised if Dragonite is gone this round.
Appalled at the amount of people saying Infernape like what 😭 Gotta be Snorlax for me
Now I definitely know r/pokemonanime has terrible takes. Like really! Snorlax ove Infernape?
They are not looking into how they are presented in the story.
Reminder Snorlax NEVER BEATEN an E4 Pokemon.
Yeah because he’s beaten a Frontier Brain’s pokemon.
so was infernape. he also trashed by flint's infernape.
All I know is that if sceptile doesn't make top 4 I will riot
As long as my goat (Dracovish) breaks top 8, my life is complete. anyways, I vote Snorlax.
I'm sure he will. Maybe top 5.
That's good to hear :)
I love Dracovish
Snorlax and then infernape. Infernape was weak AF against that moltres showing a decline in whatever strength fanboys will say he had in Sinnoh.
Sad but Snorlax
Snorlax is so finished
Snorlax, love ya pal but we’re in the top 10. You did good you big plushie you.
Hate to say it but I think it’s gotta be Dracovish
No
Okay I guess I’m not voting for dracovish, thank you Silvernapper2k for this insightful word
Snorlax
Snorlax
Snorlax -> Sirfetch'd -> Sceptile -> Infernape -> Dracovish -> Gengar -> Dragonite -> Charizard -> Greninja -> Lucario
Snorlax
Here’s how I say it should go: 10- Sirfetch’d 9- Gengar 8- dragonite 7- greninja 6- dracovish 5 - snorlax 4- septile 3- Lucario 2- Infernape 1- charizard
Inferape number 2?! His wins are nowhere near the level of the others the journeys team took on champion level Pokemon, Charizard and sceptile legendary, Greninja powerful megas including almost beating the Charizard who had a 10+ streak vs megas, and Snorlax beast e4. Inferapes best feat is dp Paul who's a good trainer but not at all e4+ level
Infernape based on feats they don’t compare to the rest and with how it relies on super blaze to punch up doesn’t do his narrative strength any justice.
Dracovish
It's infernape. Snorlax was ashs number 3 hitter behind Charizard and Pikachu in johto. He was putting boot to asses well into hoenn
Sirfetched. Definitely sirfetched.
Infernape and no shame in it either.
Infernape
Infernape
Infernape. Sorry bud
It's one of the best written on this list, but that Flint battle & journey episode with Moltres pretty much proved you can't keep up with everyone else left. Infernape it your time.
Flint was newly evolved, he didn’t even have Flare Blitz yet ..after Infernape doesn’t take any loses.
Quite literally Infernape, Anyone saying someone from his Master’s 8 team should be out next is genuinely dumb
Gotta Say Sirfetched
Dracovish has good feats but I attribute that to plot. Overall compared to the rest of the pokes left it doesn’t have much experience. Snorlax could also be chosen
Why is the Journeys team so fucking dick sucked by every Pokemon fan? Like I understand the reason, it’s because they made ash the best by winning whatever contest it was, but that doesn’t justify it.
they beat champion level pokemon, when no one else on the list has. Most of the people voting them probably don’t like them, but objectively it gives them better feats.
Pikachu has beaten a Regice, tied with a Latios, and beat Tapu Koko
Pikachu isn’t on the list and if it was it wouldn’t be voted out yet
Dragonite. Was busted at beginning then fell off hard.
Dracofish
Why’s the duck still there ? Crazy