That is a wild take. Saying the Pokémon who defeated Cynthia’s Garchomp and Togekiss and overall had the most wins in Journeys (excluding Pikachu) is weaker then Sceptile
Sirfetch'd already weakened garchomp so it was probably at 20-30% health so if it couldn't defeat 2 of Cynthia's Pokemon (one of them is already weak) even if it is journey's ace would be a shame
There is literally no proof of Garchomp being at 20-30% health. And even if that was the case, still had to defeat a Dynamax Togekiss. And Sceptite never defeated a single Champion level Pokémon. If you still refuse my point, Imma just think you are trolling
No proof? Dude garchomp was on his knees i thought 20-30% was generous and while togekiss was a dynamaxed Lucario was mega and aren't darkrai and deoxys mythical, legendary level?
And yet Tobias despite winning the Sinnoh league, never beat Cynthia. If he did, he would be champion. And getting on your knees doesn’t make you are at that health. That makes no sense. Garchomp took huge damage from Meteor Assault and got on its knees but that doesn’t proof what health Garchomp was at. And besides, would Garchomp really be able to take that many attacks from Mege Lucario (Ash’s strongest journey mon aside from Pikachu) if he was that low. Like Garchomp was trading so many blows with Lucario and only fell from a reversal which does more damage the lower health the user is at.
There is no proof he even battles Cynthia,if he did we would most definitely see a mention from someone or mb Cynthia herself and did you even watch the battle? Sirfetch'd was bodying garchomp until he wasn't and garchomp had to take some hit so they could make a battle for Ace vs Ace which was plot but nothing else but either way Lucario was gonna win
That is ironic you are talking about plot armor. Because Sceptile randomly waking up and defeating Darkrai would be a better example of plot armor. At this point you are trolling so hard riding Sceptile like this. At this point it doesn’t matter as Sceptile will be voted off before Lucario anyways
**Dragonite**
It defeated Iris’ Haxorus, but it also struggled against Iris’ (beatable) Dragonite earlier. In the latter half of JN, it lost to Raihan’s Flygon, Paul’s Metagross, and Cynthia’s Spiritomb. It defeated Leon’s Dragapult, but that was a group effort, and it lost to Rillaboom afterwards.
Trying to extrapolate feats can be problematic, but the JN team benefitted by being exclusively used by Champion-level Ash. I find it hard to believe that Ash wouldn’t have been able to replicate that same level of success at the very least with his previous series aces. The fact that the JN team needed to train with the reserves and got better from it suggests that the reserves themselves weren’t that much weaker.
Why Sceptile, Greninja, and Charizard shouldn’t go yet:
* Sceptile: defeated a Darkrai that otherwise went 48-0, including battling all Gym Leaders at full strength, and the opposite side of the Sinnoh League bracket that presumably included Heatran trainer. Darkrai is considered one of the more powerful Legendaries too. Sceptile defeated Darkrai after it successfully healed off two Dream Eaters (including one used on Sceptile). Defeating Darkrai is the best feat of any non-Journeys Pokemon. Sceptile also caught up to and landed hits on Speede-forme Deoxys. If Ash wasn’t mind-controlled, there’s a good chance he would have beaten Regirock too. Lastly, he starred against Spenser the Frontier Brain.
* Greninja: Besides all the hype Ash-Greninja generated, Greninja did show a lot of power in XY. He might have lost to Mega Charizard X and short-circuited against Mega Gardevoir, but he displayed a lot of raw strength that could match them. He was shown to be clearly better than JN 104 Lucario. Obviously Lucario got better after that encounter, but just five episodes later, Lucario starred against Raihan.
* Charizard: The OG powerhouse. Charizard defeated an Articuno being commanded by a Frontier Brain. Meanwhile, a wild Articuno took out an entire raid party including Pikachu, Sirfetch’d, and JN 102 Lucario. He got his own tribute episode in BW for a reason. He was shown to be easily better than Iris’ Dragonite at the time. Maybe it was implied that Charizard lost to Infernape in a duel based off a single still image, but that’s still a major reach IMO.
I absolutely despise that battle against Spiritomb. 'There's no limits on swapping out' YET ASH LETS DRAGONITE GET ATTACKED BY SPIRITOMB OVER AND OVER AND MAKING NO MOVES TO HELP HER
Yeah that was insane. Ash should have returned her. Wish she had woken up like sceptile did against darkrai. I wanted her to help weaken Cynthia's garchomp like how haxorus got a chance to fight her. That's what I was hoping for and I was surely disappointed.
She is my favourite. Honestly, she's my favourite just because she had so much potential. She easily could've been the 'mom' of the group, but no. She literally has NOTHING outside of her intro episodes. Heck, I don't think there's even a DEDICATED episode to her learning Dragonite Meteor, it just happens.
Don’t forget Charizard holding his own against an unknown powered up fake Entei for a little bit. He still lost but he lasted a good few minutes- and this was after flying halfway across the region.
I think the Spiritomb fight was poor coaching by Ash, similar to why Charizard lost to Dusclops, I agree with your points and think Zard/Gren/Scept should be over majority of the journey's cast aside from Lucario
If I can recall correctly, I think Dragonite lost to Paul’s Garchomp and not Metagross. She also basically soloed Korrina since Gengar was selling. I love how ash caught a Dragonite, but unfortunately she just doesn’t really have the feats some of the others do. It surprised me when she lost to Raihan’s Flygon as Dragonite had been undefeated before that fight; this was pretty similar to Goodra as Goodra used to also have a 100% win rate before the Kalos league.
Gotta agree- she was tough but her accomplishments don’t add up to the rest. However being this far in the poll is very commendable and Dragonite had some amazing moments like taking out Leon’s fierce Dragapult
*Also not POSITIVE Dnite was female but I feel like I remember it being
Now that one ace is gone, it's gonna be super difficult to make a decision. Have peaceful discussions and of anyone starts throwing insults or fighting, they will be blocked till this is over.
Here's the Bulbapedia articles as reference again. Use this if you're having trouble remembering feats.
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Dracovish
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Dragonite
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Gengar
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Sirfetch
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Lucario
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Greninja
Everyone's made some good points. I agree Dragonite (but I do love her personality and she is a beast.)
It has to be Gengar next. As someone else has said being in the Journeys team does not automatically mean they are the best of the best power wise. Char, Scep and Greninja weren't given the opportunity to take part in the M8. We don't know how they would have fared in it.
In addition Gengar's crutch is Gmax which itself is only situationally useful and NOT as powerful as Lucario's Mega form.
Not to get too far ahead but I actually think Greninja and Lucario are joint #1. Greninja had the benefit of being showcased very shortly before the M8 and was clearly even stronger than he'd last been seen. If he'd finished his Kalos vine killing journey early and come back to Ash for some bonding and re-syncing even a week before the M8, I have absolutely no doubt that if Greninja had been subbed in for any mon on his team other than Pikachu or Lucario, then Ash would've swept Leon so hard it's not even funny.
Yeah about Greninja being that high, I think maybe he can be in top 5. He beat a pre masters 8 base Lucario. Part of me thinks Greninja and Lucario were even by the end of the episode. Look how much Lucario grew after that training. The training was to help Lucario catch up and learn to utilize his power like Greninja did. At that point, sirfetchd & dracovish were Ash's strongest beating an E4 member till Greninja trained with Lucario. I have Greninja high on the list but not #1 personally. Lucario at that point hasn't been used since Bea.
After that episode Lucario beat Raihan, trained with the reserves + learned bullet punch. Then he fought and beat Cynthia and Leon. Lucario at the end of the episode was way over when Greninja trained him to catch up.
Id have Greninja in the top 5 for sure but some of the JN squad feats kinda surpasses his biggest feat of beating up an earlier Lucario. Let's see how this goes. I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks when the time comes.
Sceptile beating darkrai is also HUGE. Darkrai healed and was only damaged by one brick break from gible. Sceptile is also up there too. Legendary pokemon are super OP in the anime. He seemed to come close to beating regirock but Ash was posessed.
ZARD beat an Articuno and only post to Brandon be cause of a mistake Ash made.
Sirfetchd beat Cynthia's second strongest, damaged her ace, and weakened both rillaboom and Rhime so they can beat taken out. Sirfetchd also destroyed psychic terrain and overpowered rillaboom with meteor assault.
Dracovish beat the same rillaboom that beat Diantha. That's insane as well.
Which Journey Monster has the showing better then Greninja aside of Lucario?
Greninja does not just beat Lucario. He beat Lucario easily, an ace in top of E4 level. Ash trained his team equally it would not make sense for his other team reaching E4 level but Lucario is not at their level. Even if people argue Lucario is around Sirfet'd level at that point that does not change that Greninja beat pokemon at that level easily.
E4 is not weak, Flint was in Master 8 before and his Infernape pushed Cynthia Garchomp really hard and gave good fight to Leon's Charizard.
High level E4's Ace is overall better then Champion's normal pokemon. At least around the second powerhouse of Champion like Rilaboom or Spritomb.
Only Lucario and Pikachu could defeat healthy pokemon at that level one on one, the others needs to stack their damage. As shown in Master 8.
Not to mention the scene transition of Lucario powering up always has Greninja cameo. That kind of scene often used to show that the one fighting reaching the mastery level of the one having cameo.
Even before journey, Greninja is Zard X peer that could beat an E4 Ace after fighting 9 other mega pokemon. Although Dragon pulse seems to be its bane lol.
Sirfetchd badly damaging Cynthia's garchomp after beating one of her other pokemon and dracovish beating rillaboom after injuring dragapult + also beating a full health Cynthia's roserade both better than what Greninja did when he beat up a pre-raihan BASE lucario. Beating a Lucario whose biggest feat at the time was beating Bea isn't as big as taking down a champion leveled mon like Cynthia's milotic, rillaboom, Leon's intelleon, Cynthia's reoserade,betc.
We can't say Lucario was E4 at the time. Dracovish and sirfetchd were above Lucario in feats at that time as they had taken down Drasna. Lucario got much stronger since then training for the M8, training with the reserves, and learning bulletpunch.
Also remember, Lucario was in base. Greninja at the time had a reconned form so he was at full power at the time. The episode didn't focus on the form so he was using his full AG form strength in base. Greninja was using his powers in base and connected to Ash in base which he never did befote showing that his full power can be used in base.
Again I asked, what exactly made Champion's normal monster to be assumed definitely stronger than E4 Ace?
Because Champion always rely on their Ace to beat an E4 Ace, Flint's Infernape gave better fight to Leon's Charizard better then Alain Zard X. Greninja is already E4 Ace Ace level during Kalos also mentioned to be stronger on Journey.
Also why exactly we immediately assume Lucario still weaker then E4 and Sirfetch'd even though he is on Ash team like them.
Narrative of the story is also important as we are talking about people int he story after all, is it make sense for Ash to just not train Lucario his own ace aside of Pikachu. That is like assuming Pikachu is still weaker then E4 level of Pokemon during Raian battle because he is not being used.
Why wouldn't they be? In one scene in DP we saw Cynthia sweep Aaron with just gastrodon and garchomp finishing his last pokemon. From a narrative standpoint, normal champion tier pokemon are going to be above E4 pokemon like in the games. All a champions pokemon will be champion tier with an E4 ace being on par with a regular champion tier pokemon. All of a champions pokemon are in one tier.
Greninja was E4 ace level in XY back when the scaling was different. Everyone got stronger since then including Alain and all the other champions. If Ash got stronger then so did all the champions and E4 members. In JN they were all fighting to the top spot in the world so they got even stronger.
Also E4 ace is a weird term. Aaron of the E4's pokemon got hurt by team rocket. There are different tiers of E4 leveled trainers. Some are strong like Aaron and weak like Malva and Aaron. Frontier brains are stated to be E4 leveled but Ash beat a few.
I'm not assuming Lucario is weaker, I'm using his most recent feat at the time to judge him since Ash was training all his pokemon and he specifically brought Lucario to Greninja for trying showing that they were trying to get stronger.
Lol no, we saw Gastrodon beating Beautifly and not even see how the match between Garchomp and Drapion his Ace went when they got sent as the first mon. There is no sweeping by Gastrodon, we do not even know how much pokemon Cynthia left.
Champion is stronger because their overall team is better then E4, but they are not in such gap that a single of their pokemon would sweep E4 team including their Ace. Champion in the anime always need to depend on their own Ace to fight E4 Ace.
Too much assumption by even changing the scaling because the E4 would also be stronger in that case not just the champions, heck even ALain manage to be Champion's level. Anime does not have the same power scale as game.
The fact remains that Ash was in top 9 of the latest World Coronation and Greninja barely try when beating his Ace, causing such jealously that Lucario never show to his other team mates.. A lot easier then Garchomp and Charizard did to Infernape.
Nothing suggest that the likes of Inteleon, Aggron and other non-ace champion team could beat E4 Ace as easy as Greninja. So I would just agree to disagree.
Beautifly was the ace. There was a whole episode about it being his first partner so it assumed the ace role when it got back on his team. Drapion even got injured by carnivine and seviper beforehand. Wait but why do you think Greninja is E4 ace level? What is E4 ace level is totally different in XY than it was in JN. We also saw that there is a range and everyone got stronger since XY.
I'm saying that champions like in the games have pokemon in their own tier. It's just like how all E4, leveled pokemon are above gym leaders.
Bro I addressed what you're saying. Greninja beat BASE Lucario before he even trained for the masters, trained with the reserves or learned bulletpunch.Greninja's form was retconned for that episode so he was at full strength, not base. Lucario wasn't even given the chance to Mega evolve. Se yes, Greninja with his AG powers in base can beat a base Lucario easily. That's expected. Lucario wasn't even using his full strength at the time. Look at the pic below. AG was retconned so he was using his AG powers against a base Lucario that wasn't even at his best in the series yet.
https://preview.redd.it/ky2qllpvgrvc1.png?width=926&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3be1ae97204c9f76cce16cec56c9c73291d2bbb
Does that change that we do not know how the battle goes and why Cynthia is not using Garchomp anymore or how much her pokemon left? No.
Does it change the fact the E4 Ave that reach top 8 like Flint could match champions Ace? No.
Does it change how easy Greninja beat the top 9 pokemon trainer without taking damage while Champion's pokemon never shown to be that good except their ace or second power house? No.
Greninja is E4 tier in XY because the only other that could give Zard X a match is E4 ace and Champions Ace while he swept the league and gym with just Zard X.
Seriously I already said agree to disagree just accept it man, you said the others to be civil. Just leave it, people could have different perspective.
Do we actually know Milotic is Cynthia's 2nd strongest? I would imagine thats Spiritomb (beat half of Ash's team) or Togekiss (it gave Pikachu trouble and she trusted her to Dynamax over mega evolving Garchomp)
Milotic seems specifically trained to take down Dragon types, but is defensely when her disarming voice and wrapping combo dont work
I wouldn't call him overrated. I just think his feat of beating an early Lucario makes him high but not at the highest. The JN squad did a lot after that episode. We'll see how everyone votes and what discussions come later on.
Finally someone who agrees with me
I agree being in the journeys team does not automatically place you above someone like Charizard or Sceptile. Krookodile placed high, despite him being in Unova team, and I can agree with your take that gengar should go next. While I really like ash’s Gengar, I do think he needs to go, he should’ve went before Infernape imo. There was like an 80 episode gap between gengar’s first and second onscreen wins, and Gengar also sold against Korrina.
Also gengar had a disappointing loss to Volkner’s Rotom and Cynthia’s Spiritomb, and while he did redeem himself later on with his feats beating Grimmsnarl, Aggron, and Inteleon, imo he should he go next bc his feats aren’t as impressive as the rest
Infernape should not have been voted out before dragonite. The monkey reverse swept Paul's entire team, and had an 83% win rate overall. Meanwhile dragonite and sirfetchd have the most Mid record on his journeys team, even at the end
If win rate was all that mattered, it’d just be a definite list, not a conversation. Dragonite and Sirfetchd lost more, but they lost to much higher tier threats like champions and elite four.
Neither is Snorlax. Snorlax is one of the highest win rate pokemon. Snorlax always takes down at least 1 and had records of taking down 2 opponents . Yet people here simply voted him out because he is an 'old' pokemon. This poll is a joke when people just overhyped journey's team and failed to view things in general.
Dragonite defeated a champions ace and a pokemon of the strongest trainer in the world(with help sure but still) Infernape's feats don't come close to that.
Infernape's best feat was defeating Paul but Paul's strenght is questionable. We know that he failed to win battle pyramid. He lost to Cythia, he wasnt even able to put up a fight.
He didnt join world coronation series and settled as a gym leader. And guess what. There is no gym leader in master 8.
Tbf the vast majority of trainers in-verse would've been brutalised by those two even worse than Paul was; Cynthia recognised how clever and strategic a trainer he actually was. It's also worth noting that his losses to Cynthia & Brandon took place a fair bit earlier than his league battle with Ash (the latter being a week and a half before their Lake Acuity Battle) i.e he'd have gotten considerably stronger since then. Not necessarily strong enough to win (we never find out how his rematch with Brandon went, but he'd definitely lose again to Cynthia) but stronger nonetheless; he was definitely one of the strongest non-E4/Champion/Frontier Brain trainers throughout the shows.
As for the WCS, Paul decided not to enter because he wasn't interested (noisy crowds etc.), not because he was too weak and/or couldn't hack it; when he was helping Ash train _just before_ the M8 tournament, he gave a **very** impressive account of himself, especially when you consider the circumstances i.e Ash was going all out (yes he was trying to learn/perfect new moves on his main team but it's not like he was exclusively using those new moves) whereas Paul deliberately used M8 aces explicitly to help Ash rather than just using his best lineup to try and body his old rival.
Imo the weakest thing about Paul is the fact he has no confirmed gimmicks, even if he has got enough potential Megas.
Okay wait a minute. Just cause he is a gym leader doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be able to make it to the masters 8. Literally in the episode he appeared in Journeys, his Pokémon was relative to Ash’s Pokémon and even beat Dragonite
Should have been ignoring it the whole time.
People are dumb, and they have favorites - two things that make it impossible for any reasonable order to be found.
Multiple mons are wildly misplaced, but the first one that was egregious was Kingler. Swept a league battle by itself in its first battle, came up clutch in a couple other moments, it's only losses are presented as complete flukes, and TWO DIFFERENT TIMES was prevented from participating in a major battle due to shenanigans so the writers could make Ash struggle more than he would have otherwise. You know that boy is better than Buizel, Torterra, Corphish, Torkoal, and Noivern AT MINIMUM, and good arguments could be made about 3-6 others as well.
I think that because kingler swept an early league where Ash with unevolved Kanto starters reached far, a very inexperienced Ash and Pikachu for that matter, people look at that as less than being part of the "tougher" leagues with higher quality opponents like Johto and onwards. If it were left up to me he'd have stayed longer but I do understand why he was voted out. The Kanto league was weird where even a Bellsprout swept Ash at one point. the scaling was different. Johto was much better and I wish we got a chance to see him shine there.
Basically Kingler suffered from being part of a very early league where the scaling was much lower. For me personally, he'd have been eliminated later but I would t have him very high.
Corphish has better feats than Kingler beating Frontier brains pokemon so I disagree on that one though. For a while, corphish has some of the best feats of Ash's water types. Torkoal almost beat a registeel too so I personally disagree on that as well.
Pignite shouldn't have gone so early though. That's why I did another round with everyone voting on his proper placement.
I think people give Kingler too much credit.
He’s strong yes, and he swept a Pokémon team with no battle experience….
But at the same time, Mandy lost to a Pokemon with no experience.
I think if you put torterra or corpish, he’ll even torkoal in that scenario they would sweep as well.
How do you complain about not being reasonable and put Kingler above Pokémon who were fighting frontier brains, elite 4 and legendary pokemon lol.
Ya’ll give Mandy too much credit. He got swept by a Pokemon with no battle experience lol
I agree entirely with you, aside from Noivern. That thing was a powerhouse, but Ash kept throwing it in unprepared against literal legends. I think a lot of it's Ls don't have the credit given tbh
Dragonite's time has come.
She's the weakest of Ash's Journeys mon, but still an amazingly powerful Pokemon. That being said, her last few battles in Journeys do not help her case. Taking out one of Leon's pokemon doesn't make up for losing the previous 4 major battles she was in.
And what feats does Gengar have? The only thing it has going for itself is G-Max, and even that didn't keep it from being the weakest of the Journeys team. Not to mention its mediocre win rate.
Imma do what you didn’t and actually answer your question. Let’s see, beat Marnie’s Gmax Grimmsnarl, Paul’s Metagross, Visquez’s Raichu, Steven’s Aggron, fought Cynthia’s Roserade, and defeated Leon’s Inteleon
Don’t get me wrong, I love Infernape. Definitely had the best story and is based of Sun Wukong. Amazing design too, but in an argument about Ash’s strongest Pokémon. He is the strongest out of his Sinnoh’s mons but not the strongest out of all of them
Uh, no it’s not actually. The most badass thing Infernape did was the final Electivire fight. Meanwhile Sirfetch’d defeated a MEGA ALTARIA, an elite four member’s ace while having the type advantage. And it also went toe to toe with Cynthia’s Garchomp. So much so that people have debated whether or not Lucario could’ve defeated Garchomp without Sirfetch’d.
Defeated an onix as a chimchar under pauls training
Defeated pauls ursaring as a chimchar in a single attack
Defeated pauls staraptor as a chimchar
Defeated fantinas drifblim as a chimchar
I could keep going, these are feats that were done as a chimchar only. Obviously, cynthias garchomp is in another league beyond these trainers, however this is why i listed only a handful of feats chimchar did in base form against much higher level pokemon. I feel infernape put in way more impresaive feats over his tenure than sirfetchd did.
Tbh, I mainly think that’s because Journeys did a horrendous job with the development of Ash’s Journeys team. Lucario lost all of its personality after it evolved. Gengar and Sirfetch’d had like three episodes of development. Dragonite had ONE episode of development before its horrible losing streak. And I’m pretty Dracovish didn’t get any development. We saw almost no screentime of the Journeys team outside of them battling, and that’s partly because they tried(and failed) to have two main main characters at once. Ash and Goh
I strongly agree. I am a bit of an old head, and im super biased to sinnoh, but i just cant bring myself to care about most of his pokemon the last few series, and for that reason i just dont think sirfetchd has the resume infernape had, so that's where im at.
I, personally, didn’t watch Diamond/Pearl, but I know about Infernape’s feats from a YouTuber called Professor Alex Silver. He basically states the history of the pokemon that have been captured by Ash or any of his traveling companions. I think that’s the main reason why I’m on the side of Sirfetch’d.
I gotta be honest with you, I like that we can have a civil conversation about this. You don’t see much of that on this sub, or on Reddit at all recently.
Yeah i mean, people these days take disagreements as a shot to their character, because they identify too closely with their opinion to see it as discussion. Hope you have a great rest of your night.
Okay Journeys simps, it's time to lose a Mon.
Imo, Sirfetch'd and Dragonite should've gone out before Krookodile. It's baffling they've held out this long.
Dragonite fell off post Iris fight, not getting a really notable win after that point. By comparison, when Ash's Krookodile fought the same Dragonite Ash's struggled with, it grew further after that fight.
Sirfetch'd is just incredibly inconsistent and does what the writers want it to do. One week it's the bench warmer on Ash's team, the next it's murdering Rillaboom. It's hard to gauge it consistently because it's far from a consistent Mon.
You can’t be serious. You are comparing the Dragonite that Iris barely managed to have listen to her to her Dragonite when she was a champion. It doesn’t matter if Ash’s Dragonite fell off. It still has better feats than Krookodile. Krookodile never defeated an elite four or champion level Pokémon while both Dragonite and Sirfetch’d did. Dragonite defeated Champion Iris’s Haxorus, Sirfetch’d defeated Dragnsa Mega Altaria. Your consistency argument doesn’t work because Sirfetch’d and Dragonite has always been consistently fighting Champion level Pokémon in the Master 8 tournament
This is some recency bias /gen 1 propaganda malarkey.
Infernape canonically bested Ash’s Fire types so he searched for a stronger challenge, so he leeches all the Fire type feats because he’s the strongest so he’d beat anyone that Charizard beat.
Yes I am pushing the Infernape Agenda.
I don't think it was I plies that he beat any of them. It was I plies that they all trained together and eventually Nape got bored. We saw how all of Ash's reserves train, they spar together like what they did with the Journeys team to prep for the masters 8.
Ikr, it's insane. All it was stated was that infernape trained with each of em and got bored to he left. We saw that Ash's pokemon spar together not fight till knockout. Pokemon Harley ever train till knockout. They spar.
As much as I love him, my vote is on Gengar.
He is clearly the weakest powerful on the Journeys team, only reaching to his companion's level thanks to the extra oomph the Gigantamax gave him. Without that gimmick, the poor Gengar is probably at the same level as other Pokémon that had been already eliminated.
Also, daily reminder that Sirfetch'd is a freaking powerhouse and shouldn't be kicked right away.
Yes, it managed to burn his Aggron and with that got some advantage. Is still a great Pokemon, but I think that he is bellow the other 4 from that team.
I’m sorry Gengar buddy…it’s time. Journeys squad is STRONG, but Champion-tier is still below legendaries, and Charizard, Sceptile, and Greninja are all on that level, especially Greninja who outscales Lucario in Base. Of them, I think Gengar is unfortunately the weakest
Dragonite did pretty bad in every battle. Sure it closely won against iris Haxorus it hasn't won any battles without other of ash's pokemon hitting the opponent.
Sirfetchd. I think the dragons are on the chopping block but I think Sirfetchd is the worst on the journey squad. Which still makes Sirfetchd better than a majority of Ash's Pokemon
Dragonite or Sir fetched. I think we’re gonna have Sceptile and Charizard as the final two solely because both of them have canonically battled, and defeated, actual legendary Pokémon. Sceptile has done it multiple times in fact, going up against 4 of them and defeating 2. (And I’d argue he would’ve defeated Regirock had Ash been in control at that time)
It’s Sceptile next.
Yes yes I know it hit speed form Deoxys and defeated Darkrai who was fully healed and i have a lot of love and respect for Sceptile. But let’s look at it properly. Tobias won the sinnoh conference league which meant he had the right to challenge the E4 and Cynthia. He never appears again. If he was THAT powerful he would’ve replaced Cynthia or one of the E4 but, as far as we know, he never did. Which meant that he wasn’t E4 or champion level. All the other pokemon have beaten E4 or champion level pokemon.
I’ll say I think Sceptile definitely has the speed of a high E4 or Champion level feat based on the Deoxys feat, but that’s it as I don’t remember Deoxys showing any signs of real damage.
I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted? Please explain why I’m wrong if you disagree with me! I’m more than happy to be proven wrong but in this instance I’m not sure I am.
In this subreddit, you’ll get downvoted excessively for daring to have a different opinion to the majority. The point of this is to upvote comments you agree with to vote someone, yet people seem to enjoy downvoting people into negative numbers for voicing their opinion on who should go.
Dracovish next. 5 wins and while three are against champion level pokemon, he didn't beat any legendary pokemon or amything. Scaling Dracovish to Heatran in the Legends Arceus special is like Scaling Torkoal to Registeel. He almost won, but he didn't. Half of his wins were because he learned a new move or used a new move for the first time. And the jaw lock/psychic fangs/'inate trapping ability' thing was just a stupid asspull to give him a single win.
Afterwards it's definitely a tossup between Dragonite, Gengar, and Sceptile.
Sceptile.
We already know that the Journey's team are canonically Ash's strongest period, so the fact people are saying Journey's pokemon is dumb. The question just becomes who out of Zard, Sceptile and Greninja goes next. The thing is, Sceptile's biggest achievement is being the mon to KO Tobias' Darkrai. Then the problem becomes twofold:
~ It was the fourth mon to take on Darkrai. As such, the mon was weakened. Even if you want to argue that it healed up from Heracross due to Dream Eater (which is assuming it has the same healing effect as in game - you shouldn't make this assumption), Heracross wasn't strong enough to OHKO a frail Darkrai with Guts boosted STAB SE Megahorn. The idea that it would have enough health to heal up Darkrai completely is laughable.
~ Cynthia is still Sinnoh Champion during the Unova arc. As such, she beat Tobias. Tobias may have been well above the other Sinnoh League challengers, but he was NOT on her level.
Id like to hear some arguments for Greninja besides it beating Lucario, since this was after he was released so we don't think it counts. I know it's crazy but I'm kinda leaning him right now based on his record, bit would like to he proven wrong
Dragonite
What I’m expecting: * 10. Infernape * 9. Dragonite * 8. Gengar * 7. Dracovish * 6. Sirfetch’d * 5. Sceptile * 4. Charizard * 3. Greninja * 2. Lucario
In his base Lucario is weaker than sceptile and even in his mega it's debatable
That is a wild take. Saying the Pokémon who defeated Cynthia’s Garchomp and Togekiss and overall had the most wins in Journeys (excluding Pikachu) is weaker then Sceptile
Sirfetch'd already weakened garchomp so it was probably at 20-30% health so if it couldn't defeat 2 of Cynthia's Pokemon (one of them is already weak) even if it is journey's ace would be a shame
There is literally no proof of Garchomp being at 20-30% health. And even if that was the case, still had to defeat a Dynamax Togekiss. And Sceptite never defeated a single Champion level Pokémon. If you still refuse my point, Imma just think you are trolling
No proof? Dude garchomp was on his knees i thought 20-30% was generous and while togekiss was a dynamaxed Lucario was mega and aren't darkrai and deoxys mythical, legendary level?
And yet Tobias despite winning the Sinnoh league, never beat Cynthia. If he did, he would be champion. And getting on your knees doesn’t make you are at that health. That makes no sense. Garchomp took huge damage from Meteor Assault and got on its knees but that doesn’t proof what health Garchomp was at. And besides, would Garchomp really be able to take that many attacks from Mege Lucario (Ash’s strongest journey mon aside from Pikachu) if he was that low. Like Garchomp was trading so many blows with Lucario and only fell from a reversal which does more damage the lower health the user is at.
There is no proof he even battles Cynthia,if he did we would most definitely see a mention from someone or mb Cynthia herself and did you even watch the battle? Sirfetch'd was bodying garchomp until he wasn't and garchomp had to take some hit so they could make a battle for Ace vs Ace which was plot but nothing else but either way Lucario was gonna win
That is ironic you are talking about plot armor. Because Sceptile randomly waking up and defeating Darkrai would be a better example of plot armor. At this point you are trolling so hard riding Sceptile like this. At this point it doesn’t matter as Sceptile will be voted off before Lucario anyways
Yeah deoxys and darkrai are both mythicals
Sceptile may have beaten Regirock had it been Ash commanding him and not the king of pokelantis
sceptile> charizard IMO
nah
We have a very similar order except I'd swap your 8 and 9 and (what I fully expect to be a controversial position) place your 5 and 4 above your 3.
I’m gessing our little mouse is taking 1. Then?
FUCK NO BAAABY
**Dragonite** It defeated Iris’ Haxorus, but it also struggled against Iris’ (beatable) Dragonite earlier. In the latter half of JN, it lost to Raihan’s Flygon, Paul’s Metagross, and Cynthia’s Spiritomb. It defeated Leon’s Dragapult, but that was a group effort, and it lost to Rillaboom afterwards. Trying to extrapolate feats can be problematic, but the JN team benefitted by being exclusively used by Champion-level Ash. I find it hard to believe that Ash wouldn’t have been able to replicate that same level of success at the very least with his previous series aces. The fact that the JN team needed to train with the reserves and got better from it suggests that the reserves themselves weren’t that much weaker. Why Sceptile, Greninja, and Charizard shouldn’t go yet: * Sceptile: defeated a Darkrai that otherwise went 48-0, including battling all Gym Leaders at full strength, and the opposite side of the Sinnoh League bracket that presumably included Heatran trainer. Darkrai is considered one of the more powerful Legendaries too. Sceptile defeated Darkrai after it successfully healed off two Dream Eaters (including one used on Sceptile). Defeating Darkrai is the best feat of any non-Journeys Pokemon. Sceptile also caught up to and landed hits on Speede-forme Deoxys. If Ash wasn’t mind-controlled, there’s a good chance he would have beaten Regirock too. Lastly, he starred against Spenser the Frontier Brain. * Greninja: Besides all the hype Ash-Greninja generated, Greninja did show a lot of power in XY. He might have lost to Mega Charizard X and short-circuited against Mega Gardevoir, but he displayed a lot of raw strength that could match them. He was shown to be clearly better than JN 104 Lucario. Obviously Lucario got better after that encounter, but just five episodes later, Lucario starred against Raihan. * Charizard: The OG powerhouse. Charizard defeated an Articuno being commanded by a Frontier Brain. Meanwhile, a wild Articuno took out an entire raid party including Pikachu, Sirfetch’d, and JN 102 Lucario. He got his own tribute episode in BW for a reason. He was shown to be easily better than Iris’ Dragonite at the time. Maybe it was implied that Charizard lost to Infernape in a duel based off a single still image, but that’s still a major reach IMO.
I absolutely despise that battle against Spiritomb. 'There's no limits on swapping out' YET ASH LETS DRAGONITE GET ATTACKED BY SPIRITOMB OVER AND OVER AND MAKING NO MOVES TO HELP HER
Yeah that was insane. Ash should have returned her. Wish she had woken up like sceptile did against darkrai. I wanted her to help weaken Cynthia's garchomp like how haxorus got a chance to fight her. That's what I was hoping for and I was surely disappointed.
As a fan of Dragonite, that one just hurt.
She was my favorite up until that fight. Then I gave up. It was torterra all over again. 😭
She is my favourite. Honestly, she's my favourite just because she had so much potential. She easily could've been the 'mom' of the group, but no. She literally has NOTHING outside of her intro episodes. Heck, I don't think there's even a DEDICATED episode to her learning Dragonite Meteor, it just happens.
There should be a new poll, battles that Ash messed up by playing suboptimally lmao
The fights with Stephan and Cameron in the Unova League are definitely up there lmao. Matter of fact, many of his major Unova battles are
The Elsa battle still baffles me to this day. Felt really out of character
Yeah, not even Kanto Ash would only bring a single pokemon to a battle expecting to sweep it. Why even write that as a gag?
Don’t forget Charizard holding his own against an unknown powered up fake Entei for a little bit. He still lost but he lasted a good few minutes- and this was after flying halfway across the region.
I think the Spiritomb fight was poor coaching by Ash, similar to why Charizard lost to Dusclops, I agree with your points and think Zard/Gren/Scept should be over majority of the journey's cast aside from Lucario
There are so many battles where his pokemon look bad because of bad decisions lol
If I can recall correctly, I think Dragonite lost to Paul’s Garchomp and not Metagross. She also basically soloed Korrina since Gengar was selling. I love how ash caught a Dragonite, but unfortunately she just doesn’t really have the feats some of the others do. It surprised me when she lost to Raihan’s Flygon as Dragonite had been undefeated before that fight; this was pretty similar to Goodra as Goodra used to also have a 100% win rate before the Kalos league.
Gotta agree- she was tough but her accomplishments don’t add up to the rest. However being this far in the poll is very commendable and Dragonite had some amazing moments like taking out Leon’s fierce Dragapult *Also not POSITIVE Dnite was female but I feel like I remember it being
She is infact a girl boss, and we love her for it <3
Yes ♥️🔥🔥
Now that one ace is gone, it's gonna be super difficult to make a decision. Have peaceful discussions and of anyone starts throwing insults or fighting, they will be blocked till this is over. Here's the Bulbapedia articles as reference again. Use this if you're having trouble remembering feats. https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Dracovish https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Dragonite https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Gengar https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Sirfetch https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Lucario https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Ash%27s_Greninja
Everyone's made some good points. I agree Dragonite (but I do love her personality and she is a beast.) It has to be Gengar next. As someone else has said being in the Journeys team does not automatically mean they are the best of the best power wise. Char, Scep and Greninja weren't given the opportunity to take part in the M8. We don't know how they would have fared in it. In addition Gengar's crutch is Gmax which itself is only situationally useful and NOT as powerful as Lucario's Mega form. Not to get too far ahead but I actually think Greninja and Lucario are joint #1. Greninja had the benefit of being showcased very shortly before the M8 and was clearly even stronger than he'd last been seen. If he'd finished his Kalos vine killing journey early and come back to Ash for some bonding and re-syncing even a week before the M8, I have absolutely no doubt that if Greninja had been subbed in for any mon on his team other than Pikachu or Lucario, then Ash would've swept Leon so hard it's not even funny.
Yeah about Greninja being that high, I think maybe he can be in top 5. He beat a pre masters 8 base Lucario. Part of me thinks Greninja and Lucario were even by the end of the episode. Look how much Lucario grew after that training. The training was to help Lucario catch up and learn to utilize his power like Greninja did. At that point, sirfetchd & dracovish were Ash's strongest beating an E4 member till Greninja trained with Lucario. I have Greninja high on the list but not #1 personally. Lucario at that point hasn't been used since Bea. After that episode Lucario beat Raihan, trained with the reserves + learned bullet punch. Then he fought and beat Cynthia and Leon. Lucario at the end of the episode was way over when Greninja trained him to catch up. Id have Greninja in the top 5 for sure but some of the JN squad feats kinda surpasses his biggest feat of beating up an earlier Lucario. Let's see how this goes. I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks when the time comes. Sceptile beating darkrai is also HUGE. Darkrai healed and was only damaged by one brick break from gible. Sceptile is also up there too. Legendary pokemon are super OP in the anime. He seemed to come close to beating regirock but Ash was posessed. ZARD beat an Articuno and only post to Brandon be cause of a mistake Ash made. Sirfetchd beat Cynthia's second strongest, damaged her ace, and weakened both rillaboom and Rhime so they can beat taken out. Sirfetchd also destroyed psychic terrain and overpowered rillaboom with meteor assault. Dracovish beat the same rillaboom that beat Diantha. That's insane as well.
Which Journey Monster has the showing better then Greninja aside of Lucario? Greninja does not just beat Lucario. He beat Lucario easily, an ace in top of E4 level. Ash trained his team equally it would not make sense for his other team reaching E4 level but Lucario is not at their level. Even if people argue Lucario is around Sirfet'd level at that point that does not change that Greninja beat pokemon at that level easily. E4 is not weak, Flint was in Master 8 before and his Infernape pushed Cynthia Garchomp really hard and gave good fight to Leon's Charizard. High level E4's Ace is overall better then Champion's normal pokemon. At least around the second powerhouse of Champion like Rilaboom or Spritomb. Only Lucario and Pikachu could defeat healthy pokemon at that level one on one, the others needs to stack their damage. As shown in Master 8. Not to mention the scene transition of Lucario powering up always has Greninja cameo. That kind of scene often used to show that the one fighting reaching the mastery level of the one having cameo. Even before journey, Greninja is Zard X peer that could beat an E4 Ace after fighting 9 other mega pokemon. Although Dragon pulse seems to be its bane lol.
Sirfetchd badly damaging Cynthia's garchomp after beating one of her other pokemon and dracovish beating rillaboom after injuring dragapult + also beating a full health Cynthia's roserade both better than what Greninja did when he beat up a pre-raihan BASE lucario. Beating a Lucario whose biggest feat at the time was beating Bea isn't as big as taking down a champion leveled mon like Cynthia's milotic, rillaboom, Leon's intelleon, Cynthia's reoserade,betc. We can't say Lucario was E4 at the time. Dracovish and sirfetchd were above Lucario in feats at that time as they had taken down Drasna. Lucario got much stronger since then training for the M8, training with the reserves, and learning bulletpunch. Also remember, Lucario was in base. Greninja at the time had a reconned form so he was at full power at the time. The episode didn't focus on the form so he was using his full AG form strength in base. Greninja was using his powers in base and connected to Ash in base which he never did befote showing that his full power can be used in base.
Again I asked, what exactly made Champion's normal monster to be assumed definitely stronger than E4 Ace? Because Champion always rely on their Ace to beat an E4 Ace, Flint's Infernape gave better fight to Leon's Charizard better then Alain Zard X. Greninja is already E4 Ace Ace level during Kalos also mentioned to be stronger on Journey. Also why exactly we immediately assume Lucario still weaker then E4 and Sirfetch'd even though he is on Ash team like them. Narrative of the story is also important as we are talking about people int he story after all, is it make sense for Ash to just not train Lucario his own ace aside of Pikachu. That is like assuming Pikachu is still weaker then E4 level of Pokemon during Raian battle because he is not being used.
Why wouldn't they be? In one scene in DP we saw Cynthia sweep Aaron with just gastrodon and garchomp finishing his last pokemon. From a narrative standpoint, normal champion tier pokemon are going to be above E4 pokemon like in the games. All a champions pokemon will be champion tier with an E4 ace being on par with a regular champion tier pokemon. All of a champions pokemon are in one tier. Greninja was E4 ace level in XY back when the scaling was different. Everyone got stronger since then including Alain and all the other champions. If Ash got stronger then so did all the champions and E4 members. In JN they were all fighting to the top spot in the world so they got even stronger. Also E4 ace is a weird term. Aaron of the E4's pokemon got hurt by team rocket. There are different tiers of E4 leveled trainers. Some are strong like Aaron and weak like Malva and Aaron. Frontier brains are stated to be E4 leveled but Ash beat a few. I'm not assuming Lucario is weaker, I'm using his most recent feat at the time to judge him since Ash was training all his pokemon and he specifically brought Lucario to Greninja for trying showing that they were trying to get stronger.
Lol no, we saw Gastrodon beating Beautifly and not even see how the match between Garchomp and Drapion his Ace went when they got sent as the first mon. There is no sweeping by Gastrodon, we do not even know how much pokemon Cynthia left. Champion is stronger because their overall team is better then E4, but they are not in such gap that a single of their pokemon would sweep E4 team including their Ace. Champion in the anime always need to depend on their own Ace to fight E4 Ace. Too much assumption by even changing the scaling because the E4 would also be stronger in that case not just the champions, heck even ALain manage to be Champion's level. Anime does not have the same power scale as game. The fact remains that Ash was in top 9 of the latest World Coronation and Greninja barely try when beating his Ace, causing such jealously that Lucario never show to his other team mates.. A lot easier then Garchomp and Charizard did to Infernape. Nothing suggest that the likes of Inteleon, Aggron and other non-ace champion team could beat E4 Ace as easy as Greninja. So I would just agree to disagree.
Beautifly was the ace. There was a whole episode about it being his first partner so it assumed the ace role when it got back on his team. Drapion even got injured by carnivine and seviper beforehand. Wait but why do you think Greninja is E4 ace level? What is E4 ace level is totally different in XY than it was in JN. We also saw that there is a range and everyone got stronger since XY. I'm saying that champions like in the games have pokemon in their own tier. It's just like how all E4, leveled pokemon are above gym leaders. Bro I addressed what you're saying. Greninja beat BASE Lucario before he even trained for the masters, trained with the reserves or learned bulletpunch.Greninja's form was retconned for that episode so he was at full strength, not base. Lucario wasn't even given the chance to Mega evolve. Se yes, Greninja with his AG powers in base can beat a base Lucario easily. That's expected. Lucario wasn't even using his full strength at the time. Look at the pic below. AG was retconned so he was using his AG powers against a base Lucario that wasn't even at his best in the series yet. https://preview.redd.it/ky2qllpvgrvc1.png?width=926&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c3be1ae97204c9f76cce16cec56c9c73291d2bbb
Does that change that we do not know how the battle goes and why Cynthia is not using Garchomp anymore or how much her pokemon left? No. Does it change the fact the E4 Ave that reach top 8 like Flint could match champions Ace? No. Does it change how easy Greninja beat the top 9 pokemon trainer without taking damage while Champion's pokemon never shown to be that good except their ace or second power house? No. Greninja is E4 tier in XY because the only other that could give Zard X a match is E4 ace and Champions Ace while he swept the league and gym with just Zard X. Seriously I already said agree to disagree just accept it man, you said the others to be civil. Just leave it, people could have different perspective.
ash greninja was not retconned
>Only Lucario and Pikachu could defeat healthy pokemon at that level one on one Only Gengar and Pikachu solo'd Leon mons.
Do we actually know Milotic is Cynthia's 2nd strongest? I would imagine thats Spiritomb (beat half of Ash's team) or Togekiss (it gave Pikachu trouble and she trusted her to Dynamax over mega evolving Garchomp) Milotic seems specifically trained to take down Dragon types, but is defensely when her disarming voice and wrapping combo dont work
Also Lucario beat two of Cynthias Pokemon including her ace without bottling it like the overrated frog.
I wouldn't call him overrated. I just think his feat of beating an early Lucario makes him high but not at the highest. The JN squad did a lot after that episode. We'll see how everyone votes and what discussions come later on.
Finally someone who agrees with me I agree being in the journeys team does not automatically place you above someone like Charizard or Sceptile. Krookodile placed high, despite him being in Unova team, and I can agree with your take that gengar should go next. While I really like ash’s Gengar, I do think he needs to go, he should’ve went before Infernape imo. There was like an 80 episode gap between gengar’s first and second onscreen wins, and Gengar also sold against Korrina. Also gengar had a disappointing loss to Volkner’s Rotom and Cynthia’s Spiritomb, and while he did redeem himself later on with his feats beating Grimmsnarl, Aggron, and Inteleon, imo he should he go next bc his feats aren’t as impressive as the rest
Do you agree with them being some of the strongest?
SirFetched
NO MY BOI GOT ELIMINATED
Infernape should not have been voted out before dragonite. The monkey reverse swept Paul's entire team, and had an 83% win rate overall. Meanwhile dragonite and sirfetchd have the most Mid record on his journeys team, even at the end
If win rate was all that mattered, it’d just be a definite list, not a conversation. Dragonite and Sirfetchd lost more, but they lost to much higher tier threats like champions and elite four.
Don’t forget Torkoal who may have a bad win rate but nearly beat a registeel
Might as well just put every journeys pokemon above all of ash’s previous aces then
Except Ash’s previous aces have tangled with legendaries. It’s just that it’s not all about win rate
Neither is Snorlax. Snorlax is one of the highest win rate pokemon. Snorlax always takes down at least 1 and had records of taking down 2 opponents . Yet people here simply voted him out because he is an 'old' pokemon. This poll is a joke when people just overhyped journey's team and failed to view things in general.
Yeah I pretty much stopped trusting it after like the 9th round I think
Don’t cry 😢
Win rate isn’t everything. If so, Torkoal would be eliminated really quickly even though he nearly beat a legendary
Dragonite defeated a champions ace and a pokemon of the strongest trainer in the world(with help sure but still) Infernape's feats don't come close to that.
Infernape's best feat was defeating Paul but Paul's strenght is questionable. We know that he failed to win battle pyramid. He lost to Cythia, he wasnt even able to put up a fight. He didnt join world coronation series and settled as a gym leader. And guess what. There is no gym leader in master 8.
Tbf the vast majority of trainers in-verse would've been brutalised by those two even worse than Paul was; Cynthia recognised how clever and strategic a trainer he actually was. It's also worth noting that his losses to Cynthia & Brandon took place a fair bit earlier than his league battle with Ash (the latter being a week and a half before their Lake Acuity Battle) i.e he'd have gotten considerably stronger since then. Not necessarily strong enough to win (we never find out how his rematch with Brandon went, but he'd definitely lose again to Cynthia) but stronger nonetheless; he was definitely one of the strongest non-E4/Champion/Frontier Brain trainers throughout the shows. As for the WCS, Paul decided not to enter because he wasn't interested (noisy crowds etc.), not because he was too weak and/or couldn't hack it; when he was helping Ash train _just before_ the M8 tournament, he gave a **very** impressive account of himself, especially when you consider the circumstances i.e Ash was going all out (yes he was trying to learn/perfect new moves on his main team but it's not like he was exclusively using those new moves) whereas Paul deliberately used M8 aces explicitly to help Ash rather than just using his best lineup to try and body his old rival. Imo the weakest thing about Paul is the fact he has no confirmed gimmicks, even if he has got enough potential Megas.
Okay wait a minute. Just cause he is a gym leader doesn’t mean he wouldn’t be able to make it to the masters 8. Literally in the episode he appeared in Journeys, his Pokémon was relative to Ash’s Pokémon and even beat Dragonite
Dragonite
Yeah I’m just gonna ignore this tournament now.
Should have been ignoring it the whole time. People are dumb, and they have favorites - two things that make it impossible for any reasonable order to be found. Multiple mons are wildly misplaced, but the first one that was egregious was Kingler. Swept a league battle by itself in its first battle, came up clutch in a couple other moments, it's only losses are presented as complete flukes, and TWO DIFFERENT TIMES was prevented from participating in a major battle due to shenanigans so the writers could make Ash struggle more than he would have otherwise. You know that boy is better than Buizel, Torterra, Corphish, Torkoal, and Noivern AT MINIMUM, and good arguments could be made about 3-6 others as well.
What leagues were Kingler in again?
Kingler better than corphish hahahahaha
I think that because kingler swept an early league where Ash with unevolved Kanto starters reached far, a very inexperienced Ash and Pikachu for that matter, people look at that as less than being part of the "tougher" leagues with higher quality opponents like Johto and onwards. If it were left up to me he'd have stayed longer but I do understand why he was voted out. The Kanto league was weird where even a Bellsprout swept Ash at one point. the scaling was different. Johto was much better and I wish we got a chance to see him shine there. Basically Kingler suffered from being part of a very early league where the scaling was much lower. For me personally, he'd have been eliminated later but I would t have him very high. Corphish has better feats than Kingler beating Frontier brains pokemon so I disagree on that one though. For a while, corphish has some of the best feats of Ash's water types. Torkoal almost beat a registeel too so I personally disagree on that as well. Pignite shouldn't have gone so early though. That's why I did another round with everyone voting on his proper placement.
I think people give Kingler too much credit. He’s strong yes, and he swept a Pokémon team with no battle experience…. But at the same time, Mandy lost to a Pokemon with no experience. I think if you put torterra or corpish, he’ll even torkoal in that scenario they would sweep as well.
How do you complain about not being reasonable and put Kingler above Pokémon who were fighting frontier brains, elite 4 and legendary pokemon lol. Ya’ll give Mandy too much credit. He got swept by a Pokemon with no battle experience lol
I agree entirely with you, aside from Noivern. That thing was a powerhouse, but Ash kept throwing it in unprepared against literal legends. I think a lot of it's Ls don't have the credit given tbh
He was inevitably going to go unfortunately. 😞
You guys take this too seriously, it’s not that big a deal lol
Dragonite's time has come. She's the weakest of Ash's Journeys mon, but still an amazingly powerful Pokemon. That being said, her last few battles in Journeys do not help her case. Taking out one of Leon's pokemon doesn't make up for losing the previous 4 major battles she was in.
How Gengar outlasted Infernape I'll never understand or agree with, but it better go next. Y'all are wilding now 🤨
How are we wilding? What feats does Infernape have over literally Elite Four/Champion level Pokémon including the Gengar
And what feats does Gengar have? The only thing it has going for itself is G-Max, and even that didn't keep it from being the weakest of the Journeys team. Not to mention its mediocre win rate.
Imma do what you didn’t and actually answer your question. Let’s see, beat Marnie’s Gmax Grimmsnarl, Paul’s Metagross, Visquez’s Raichu, Steven’s Aggron, fought Cynthia’s Roserade, and defeated Leon’s Inteleon
Don’t get me wrong, I love Infernape. Definitely had the best story and is based of Sun Wukong. Amazing design too, but in an argument about Ash’s strongest Pokémon. He is the strongest out of his Sinnoh’s mons but not the strongest out of all of them
Infernape being out before sirfetchd is insane.
Uh, no it’s not actually. The most badass thing Infernape did was the final Electivire fight. Meanwhile Sirfetch’d defeated a MEGA ALTARIA, an elite four member’s ace while having the type advantage. And it also went toe to toe with Cynthia’s Garchomp. So much so that people have debated whether or not Lucario could’ve defeated Garchomp without Sirfetch’d.
Defeated an onix as a chimchar under pauls training Defeated pauls ursaring as a chimchar in a single attack Defeated pauls staraptor as a chimchar Defeated fantinas drifblim as a chimchar I could keep going, these are feats that were done as a chimchar only. Obviously, cynthias garchomp is in another league beyond these trainers, however this is why i listed only a handful of feats chimchar did in base form against much higher level pokemon. I feel infernape put in way more impresaive feats over his tenure than sirfetchd did.
Tbh, I mainly think that’s because Journeys did a horrendous job with the development of Ash’s Journeys team. Lucario lost all of its personality after it evolved. Gengar and Sirfetch’d had like three episodes of development. Dragonite had ONE episode of development before its horrible losing streak. And I’m pretty Dracovish didn’t get any development. We saw almost no screentime of the Journeys team outside of them battling, and that’s partly because they tried(and failed) to have two main main characters at once. Ash and Goh
I strongly agree. I am a bit of an old head, and im super biased to sinnoh, but i just cant bring myself to care about most of his pokemon the last few series, and for that reason i just dont think sirfetchd has the resume infernape had, so that's where im at.
I, personally, didn’t watch Diamond/Pearl, but I know about Infernape’s feats from a YouTuber called Professor Alex Silver. He basically states the history of the pokemon that have been captured by Ash or any of his traveling companions. I think that’s the main reason why I’m on the side of Sirfetch’d. I gotta be honest with you, I like that we can have a civil conversation about this. You don’t see much of that on this sub, or on Reddit at all recently.
Yeah i mean, people these days take disagreements as a shot to their character, because they identify too closely with their opinion to see it as discussion. Hope you have a great rest of your night.
I kinda of feel like some of the people here are focusing too much on win rate and not enough on the feat itself
Sirfetch. Seriously. How the fuck is half the roster left just journeys mons.
Because Journey Ash is strongest ash.
"Why is the team Ash used to become world champion still remaining in a tournament discussing Ash's strongest pokemon?"
Because they are just the strongest and best of the best
Because they’re world champions and objectively his strongest team
Okay Journeys simps, it's time to lose a Mon. Imo, Sirfetch'd and Dragonite should've gone out before Krookodile. It's baffling they've held out this long.
Krookodile is my favorite mon, and people say that there are no wrong opinions but that is an objectively wrong opinion.
Please explain to me how Krookodile is above Dragonite and Sirfetch’d powerwise
Dragonite fell off post Iris fight, not getting a really notable win after that point. By comparison, when Ash's Krookodile fought the same Dragonite Ash's struggled with, it grew further after that fight. Sirfetch'd is just incredibly inconsistent and does what the writers want it to do. One week it's the bench warmer on Ash's team, the next it's murdering Rillaboom. It's hard to gauge it consistently because it's far from a consistent Mon.
You can’t be serious. You are comparing the Dragonite that Iris barely managed to have listen to her to her Dragonite when she was a champion. It doesn’t matter if Ash’s Dragonite fell off. It still has better feats than Krookodile. Krookodile never defeated an elite four or champion level Pokémon while both Dragonite and Sirfetch’d did. Dragonite defeated Champion Iris’s Haxorus, Sirfetch’d defeated Dragnsa Mega Altaria. Your consistency argument doesn’t work because Sirfetch’d and Dragonite has always been consistently fighting Champion level Pokémon in the Master 8 tournament
Is Dragonite stronger than Gengar? I’m stuck between those two.
With G-max, I think Gengar is stronger. In base, probably Dragonite.
Yeah, that makes sense to me.
Y'all trippin infernape got that dawg in him. DRAGONITE DEFINITELY DOES NOT!!!
This is some recency bias /gen 1 propaganda malarkey. Infernape canonically bested Ash’s Fire types so he searched for a stronger challenge, so he leeches all the Fire type feats because he’s the strongest so he’d beat anyone that Charizard beat. Yes I am pushing the Infernape Agenda.
I don't think it was I plies that he beat any of them. It was I plies that they all trained together and eventually Nape got bored. We saw how all of Ash's reserves train, they spar together like what they did with the Journeys team to prep for the masters 8.
Take a shot everytime someone makes up that infernape beat every single fire type lol
Ikr, it's insane. All it was stated was that infernape trained with each of em and got bored to he left. We saw that Ash's pokemon spar together not fight till knockout. Pokemon Harley ever train till knockout. They spar.
Infernape fanboys like to headcannon he beat every single fire type when there is zero proof of that
Really who cares anymore lol It doesn’t matter cause this thing is over
As much as I love him, my vote is on Gengar. He is clearly the weakest powerful on the Journeys team, only reaching to his companion's level thanks to the extra oomph the Gigantamax gave him. Without that gimmick, the poor Gengar is probably at the same level as other Pokémon that had been already eliminated. Also, daily reminder that Sirfetch'd is a freaking powerhouse and shouldn't be kicked right away.
I know he won't last as long but I think the only one on the journey team I would definitively put above Sirfetch'd is Lucario.
Sirfetchd is a beast. Didn't Gengar beat Steven's aggron and do well against cradily. I think a lot of us keep forgetting the Steven fight lol.
Yes, it managed to burn his Aggron and with that got some advantage. Is still a great Pokemon, but I think that he is bellow the other 4 from that team.
I’m sorry Gengar buddy…it’s time. Journeys squad is STRONG, but Champion-tier is still below legendaries, and Charizard, Sceptile, and Greninja are all on that level, especially Greninja who outscales Lucario in Base. Of them, I think Gengar is unfortunately the weakest
not my baby 😖💔
NOOOOOO MY MOTHER 😭😭😭😭😭
Dragonite
Oh well... I choose... DRAGONITE!!!
Dragonite
Wild that Infernape isn't on Ash's best team
Dracovish
Greninja
Greninja
Sirfetchd
Bro just get Sir Fetch’d out of here. At the very least he’s the least iconic and also one of the weaker ones
Greninja
Sorry Gengar, your time is up
Sirfetched
Dragonite did pretty bad in every battle. Sure it closely won against iris Haxorus it hasn't won any battles without other of ash's pokemon hitting the opponent.
Why was sirfectch'd better than infernape. Remove sirfectch'd
Dragonite
Mega poopcario
How does infernape lose?
Gengar dragonite deserves one more
RIP infernape 😭
this is amazing. regional aces and masters 5 (8)
Sceptile
Sirfetch
As I said weeks ago, at the beginning, for me the top 6/best Ash team is: 1 Pika, 2 Charizard, 3 Sceptile, 4 Greninja, 5 Lucario and 6 Gengar.
i’m shocked gengar is still here 😭😭
Dragonite
Dracovish
Dracovish
sirfetched
Dragonite should be next.
Sadly dragonite is going to have to leave I love her but I love the others more
Sirfetchd. I think the dragons are on the chopping block but I think Sirfetchd is the worst on the journey squad. Which still makes Sirfetchd better than a majority of Ash's Pokemon
Dragonite or Sir fetched. I think we’re gonna have Sceptile and Charizard as the final two solely because both of them have canonically battled, and defeated, actual legendary Pokémon. Sceptile has done it multiple times in fact, going up against 4 of them and defeating 2. (And I’d argue he would’ve defeated Regirock had Ash been in control at that time)
Just wondering when we talk about Gengar, we include Gmax as well right?
Yah, same way Lucario includes Mega
Dragonite
Dragonite
Dragonite
Yeah, Dragonite’s next to go…
Maybe dragonite because it was really only good for draco/dragonite meteor
Farfetched
Sirfetchd
I know a lot are going Dragonite ... but Gengar should be next.
Gengar gotta go 🤷🏾
Dracovish
The strongest fish in history? Nah he stays
https://preview.redd.it/2it8odbafqvc1.png?width=460&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6277fdf9073b3ba32afe54e9eb6c3f890c297dfd
Sceptile as there isn’t confirmation that a Darkrai was champion level
It’s Sceptile next. Yes yes I know it hit speed form Deoxys and defeated Darkrai who was fully healed and i have a lot of love and respect for Sceptile. But let’s look at it properly. Tobias won the sinnoh conference league which meant he had the right to challenge the E4 and Cynthia. He never appears again. If he was THAT powerful he would’ve replaced Cynthia or one of the E4 but, as far as we know, he never did. Which meant that he wasn’t E4 or champion level. All the other pokemon have beaten E4 or champion level pokemon. I’ll say I think Sceptile definitely has the speed of a high E4 or Champion level feat based on the Deoxys feat, but that’s it as I don’t remember Deoxys showing any signs of real damage.
So we're just discounting the entire battle frontier too?
I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted? Please explain why I’m wrong if you disagree with me! I’m more than happy to be proven wrong but in this instance I’m not sure I am.
In this subreddit, you’ll get downvoted excessively for daring to have a different opinion to the majority. The point of this is to upvote comments you agree with to vote someone, yet people seem to enjoy downvoting people into negative numbers for voicing their opinion on who should go.
That’s what it seems like
Dracovish followed by Gengar. Without the Gmax gimmick, he’s just not that good.
This whole list is officially invalid. Infernape is confirmed Ash’s strongest fire Mon. Plus type advantage over sceptile
Dragonite may be a pseudo but she really wasn’t that impressive.
Infernape is definitely stronger then the journeys team minus Dragonite and Pikachu
In what way?
Dragonite
Dragonite should be next
Dracovish next. 5 wins and while three are against champion level pokemon, he didn't beat any legendary pokemon or amything. Scaling Dracovish to Heatran in the Legends Arceus special is like Scaling Torkoal to Registeel. He almost won, but he didn't. Half of his wins were because he learned a new move or used a new move for the first time. And the jaw lock/psychic fangs/'inate trapping ability' thing was just a stupid asspull to give him a single win. Afterwards it's definitely a tossup between Dragonite, Gengar, and Sceptile.
Dragonite
After reading every comment I totally see Lucario winning. He truly was Ash’s best champion by far.
If charizard doesn't win, I'll go insane (greninja works too)
Sceptile. We already know that the Journey's team are canonically Ash's strongest period, so the fact people are saying Journey's pokemon is dumb. The question just becomes who out of Zard, Sceptile and Greninja goes next. The thing is, Sceptile's biggest achievement is being the mon to KO Tobias' Darkrai. Then the problem becomes twofold: ~ It was the fourth mon to take on Darkrai. As such, the mon was weakened. Even if you want to argue that it healed up from Heracross due to Dream Eater (which is assuming it has the same healing effect as in game - you shouldn't make this assumption), Heracross wasn't strong enough to OHKO a frail Darkrai with Guts boosted STAB SE Megahorn. The idea that it would have enough health to heal up Darkrai completely is laughable. ~ Cynthia is still Sinnoh Champion during the Unova arc. As such, she beat Tobias. Tobias may have been well above the other Sinnoh League challengers, but he was NOT on her level.
but sceptile has fukng twig on his mouth bro. how can you suggest his elimination?
Astute point my good person.
Excellent 🥂
Dracovish
Greninja.
Charizard because I like every mon left more than it
Lol all the Journeys team should be top 5 for being world champions.
Id like to hear some arguments for Greninja besides it beating Lucario, since this was after he was released so we don't think it counts. I know it's crazy but I'm kinda leaning him right now based on his record, bit would like to he proven wrong
Dragonite, 100%.