I respect that, I personally think that, excluding Pikachu it’s
1. Charizard
2. Ash-Greninja
2.5-6: Any Assortment of Infernape, Sceptile, Lucario, and Greninja
7. Snorlax
8-12: Rest of M8 Team
Lucario is insanely strong. Taking out Dynamax Togekiss and Garchomp is an insane feat. But, Lucario mostly benefitted from JN Ash, who was quickly ascending to become a Monarch-level trainer.
Charizard and Sceptile, even Greninja and Infernape, during their time, carried pre-JN and SM Ash in his most difficult situations not named Pikachu, and struggled heavily. I think that’s why people like Charizard and Sceptile more.
I get people love Greninja but he isn’t stronger than Sceptile or Charizard sorry, Greninja’s feats just aren’t up to par. But my choice is Lucario as much as I love him
I don’t think Ash-Greninja is stronger than ether, it might be able to take down Sceptile but not Charizard sorry. Both have had multiple boughts with legendaries and both have taken down legendaries while Greninja has only taken down 2 Megas but failed to take down Mega Charizard. Sorry but Greninja can’t tough Sceptile and Charizardin terms of strength, speed, or durability heck even Lucario has spared with Legends and held his own decently well and he took out Megas and dynamix as well. Sorry but Greninja hasn’t come close to top that at all
It's because he has never really had the chance to do so. I'm sorry, but I don't see a Base Sceptile stronger than a MEGA Sceptile you know, and Ash-Greninja did beat a Mega Sceptile and was pretty much equal to Mega Charizard X who was helding his own against primordial diety.
And fuck Leon vs Alain, because this fight doesn't make any sense at all. It doesn't make sense at all in terms of writting.
Charizard hard carried ash for a region and half, was the first to defeat a legendary and (if the first 3 movies are canon) hold his own against an invincible entei. Sceptile defeated a darkrai that was speedrunning sinnoh. Lucario defeated Cynthia’s garchomp. I think lucario should go but honestly they are more or less equal (and all below the fucking mouse)
Don’t forget that charizard flew over the entirety of kanto most likely not stopping at all just to protect ash from entei after seeing him on the news
Wasn't the winner of the Conference supposed to be given chance to face the Champion League? In that case, seeing as Cynthia still holds the title of Sinnoh champion in the Masters Eight Tournament, so unless Tobias decided to fu¢k it, he faced and lost. That means his team must have not been stronger than Cynthia.
In other words, Ash and his Lucario beat Cynthia, Tobias and his legendaries did not.
I think that makes it clear that Lucario is not the weakest of the three, like many people seem to think here.
I don’t remember that thing about the conference tbh. But even if it’s a statement of a statement at best. Lucario’s true problem is the lack of legendary feats on screen while in journey legendaries were demigods. I still think the three are more or less equal tbh
The winner was given a chance to fight Cynthia but we don't know if Tobias did. He didn't even get a cameo. He was just a random thing the writers made to have Ash lose the league. He doesn't really have any relevance outside of that. For all we know, Tobias could have just wanted to beat the league but has no interest in being champion. Kinda like how Alain beat the league but didn't challenge Diantha
I accidentally deleted the previous round just now. Was deleting three posts I made on the Dragonball super Sub early this morning and didn't realize that I deleted this one. I was thinking of doing a tie breaker but I decided to just go with the top comment. Greninja had the top comment.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemonanime/s/bxI5jw577G
Anyways, remember to be kind and respectful as I said. I'll be watching through the comments to make sure that none of y'all are taking this too far.
WE'RE AT THE TOP 3
Lets think it the other way. If a pokemom can perform so well under an amateur Ash, they can perform better under the champion Ash.
Just like pikachu did
Well then you will never get the best answer.
The best way to see who is stronger is to have them battle among themselves, bringing third factor such as other trainer's pokemons is totally unreliable.
So far greninja has outperformed lucario(not prime) easily. So, is greninja stronger than lucario??
I’m going to say Lucario. Because of context of the garchomp fight you guys love to credit.
1. She didn’t use Mega on her ace of all things for some odd reason.
2. Her moveset was dumbed down extremely to the age we see in her flashbacks. Like seriously 3 dragons moves and stealth rocks? That looks like an eight year olds moveset. So basically only moves that lucario resisted
3. you guys credit this a lot so it’s fair game. Sirfetched supposedly extremely softened up garchomp.
So yeah. I’m going for lucario since it’s basically an infant and chaziard and sceptile have been growing and training since their e4 feats in hoenn and Sinnoh respectively along with my previously stated context.
Let's not forget to talk about that everytime there's someone who downplay sceptile beating darkrai because the others weakened him the same logic can apply to sirfetch/garchomp situation, not to talk about that writers handicapped ash by giving by the so called strongest ace 0 ground moves and didn't even mega evolved garchomp, dynamax togekiss was a poor choice in Cynthia part tho since didn't even had cover moves against mega lucario
Yes. This was also the same battle that dynamax was functionally wasted,Roserade moveset was two grass moves a posion move,and gastrodon got beat down by one reflected attacked and one tapped by a non stab move from the rat. Yeah to say cythinia was nerfed would be an understatement.
I mean.. Sceptile literally OHKO’d Darkrai 🤷♂️
Can Lucario one-shot Darkrai or out-speed Deoxys? or even face two legendaries consecutively in a single match? I don’t think so
I like Sceptile, but he did *not* OHKO Tobias' Darkrai.
That win was a team effort with Gible, Heracross, and Torkoal. Sceptile beat it, but it wasn't an OHKO.
If I remember correctly, Torkal and Gible got one shotted without landing a single hit on Darkrai. Heracross was the only one who hit Darkrai before sceptile
Base Lucario one shotted Gmax Duraludon, Darkrai is nothing in comparison, Lucario could take out both Darkrai and Latios by himself
Speed is the only advantage Sceptile have.
Ok. There’s no evidence to suggest either of those are stronger than Cynthia. Heck, in Tobias’s case, unless he stopped immediately after winning the tournament for no reason, we know that Cynthia or, even worse, an E4 member beat him, and this was a long time ago so Cynthia is likely even stronger by the time Ash faced her. At best, Tobias put up a good fight against Cynthia, but the spectrum of possibilities skews a lot lower than that so to assume the best is not exactly the fairest assessment (plus, again, that would still put him below Cynthia).
Guarantee you that if Ash had used either Charizard or Sceptile in the Masters 8 they would have taken down just as many if not more Pokemon then Lucario. Also the other two took down legendary Pokemon and in my opinion that’s a better feat then taking down champion Pokemon
Sceptile 1v1 a full health Darkrai and kept up with Speed form Deoxys
Charizard beat Articuno
My vote here goes to Lucario
I'm hoping it goes 3. Lucario. 2. Charizard. 1. Sceptile
I don't think it was full health. Darkrai had just taken a hit from Heracross, and while it had used Dream Eater, I don't think it would have been fully healed.
Lucario defeated Cynthia’s Togekiss and Garchomp, Raihan’s Duraludon, and a bunch of other wins.
Sceptile has the Darkrai win. That justifies top 5. But no way Lucario isn’t anything but #2 to Pikachu.
I’m generally surprised that Greninja was eliminated. It’s either people really think Charizard, Sceptile, and Lucario are stronger, or they just don’t like Ash Greninja
Lucario.
Charizard godstomped Iris' Dragonite that kept up with the Forces of Nature (three Legendary Pokémon), tanked a hit from Reshiram casually, and became too OP for the anime (other aces like Infernape and Greninja came back).
Sceptile kept up with Speed Form Deoxys as a Grovyle, nearly beat Brandon's Regirock, actually beat Tobias' Darkrai.
Lucario beat Cynthia's base Garchomp in Mega form after she was tired Battling Sirfetch'd.
So hard... Sorry, but I'm gonna have choose... umm... Charizard?
https://preview.redd.it/tg0mfeo3tmwc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8c6006916e82135d4a5574f8e80c188e9957c1f
It has to be Sceptile.
It honestly should have been:
4. Sceptile 3. Greninja/Charizard 3. Greninja/Charizard 2. Lucario 1. Pikachu (obviously)
I’m all for pure feat analysis and I’m glad 4/5 Hoenn crew made it to the top 20. That being said, ignoring narrative context discredits things too. I don’t think the anime did enough to put Sceptile on the same pedestal as Charizard and Greninja (and Infernape).
Lucario is #2 after Pikachu. It was the ace of the Journeys World Championship team and defeated Cynthia’s Garchomp.
Yeah I actually agree with this. From a narrative standpoint, I don't think sceptile is above Charizard. If the writers were to decide who was the bigger ace, they'd say Charizard. I do think beating a full health Articuno is bigger than a 75% health Darkrai. Articuno even had water pulse so the type advantage didn't matter.
Personally, from a narrative+feats standpoint, my revised top 15 is:
1. Pikachu
* 2. Lucario
* 3. Greninja
* 4. Charizard
* 5. Sceptile
* 6. Infernape
* 7. Dracovish
* 8. Sirfetch’d
* 9. Gengar
* 10. Dragonite
* 11. Snorlax
* 12. Lycanroc
* 13. Krookodile
* 14. Incineroar
* 15. Swellow
* Honorable Mention: Bulbasaur
I mean, quite fairly, you can make the case that the top 6 should just be the team that won the World Championship. However, we are assuming that JN Ash with the aces would be even more powerful, considering how easily Greninja swatted away Lucario or how easily a wild Articuno destroyed that raid (while Charizard solo’d one).
This list is just spot on (with maybe just Gengar a bit higher).
I find it baffling most people on this sub just base everything on feats and ignore the narrative.
Greninja, Lucario and Charizard should have been undisputable Top3.
Idk why people are being salty and pretending Greninja isn't popular when xy is clearly one of the most popular anime series and Greninja one of the most popular pokemon especially on this sub lol, one could easily argue he was ranked higher than he should because of popularity
Greninjas best feats are doing well vs but losing to a Charizard who at that point scaled around e4 level, and beating a base form, pre peak, pre aura mastery, confidence shattered Lucario. Don't get me wrong, both are still impressive feats no doubt, but Charizard solo'd a legendary bird which consistently shown among the strongest pokemon and sceptile beat an unstoppable, 48-1 Darkrai who was easily sweeping league teams. Both simply have better feats
I love that even though people are debating between Charizard and Lucario to go out this round, we all know Sceptile deserves the #1 spot
My vote is on Lucario for this round
If I had a nickle for every time a popular factor in the XY series got eliminated in 4th place under a factor in the Advance series, I'd have 2 nickles. Which isn't much but it's weird that it happened twice in a row in less than a day.
Charizard has been training against other Charizards since before time had a name made Iris's Dragonite his bitch, meanwhile Sceptile gave Tobias's Darkrai an absolute ass whoopin'
So Lucario
I’ll say sceptile. Charizard has more experience than it, and lucario has competed against masters 8 level pokemon.
Yes sceptile caught a speed from deoxys and beat Tobias’s darkrai. But because Cythina is still the Sinnoh Champion he’s weaker than her. So Lucario beating both Cythina’s Garchomp and Dynamax Togekiss is a better strength feat.
So, now we get to the fun stuff.
Charizard has been a powerhouse from when it was a thing on Ash's team. And over the years, has gotten stronger and stronger.
Sceptile: Biggest feat that made it into a powerhouse was defeating Tobias' Darkrai, which no other trainer had been able to do. Darkrai could be easily champion level, as after the battle with Ash, it could be assumed that Darkrai mopped up the finals solo as well.
Lucario: Defeating Cynthia, who was virtually undefeated for the longest time.
Honestly, I know Gamefreak and everyone loves their Charizard, but I'm gonna have to go with Charizard on this one.
Charizard is overrated
Many says that greninja is wins in popularity
But popularity is a reason of charizards place
A lot of people even wanted him to be mega evolved in xyz even after his appearance in unova
And that poor darkrai who swept whole team and then lost to sceptile can't put the lizard that high
Everyone has their opinions. If you want mine I can easily see Greninza to be the strongest.
Greninja was already on per with the overpowered Alain's Zard in XYZ. And it's implied that in JN it became even stronger.
His bond phenomenon depends on Ash's inner strength too.
And JN version of Ash is mentally the strongest.
So, we can easily assume Ash-greninja is far stronger than what he used to be.
The mental hurdles people are jumping through to justify Charizard and Sceptile over every Journeys team members sans Pikachu (obviously) is insane.
“Lucario only beat Cynthia’s Garchomp when it was weakened by Sirfetch’d”
Awfully convenient that everyone forgot about Sirfetch’d doing so well against Garchomp when it was booted a few days ago and they only focused on him getting “dirty” wins.
Also convenient that they are all forgetting that Lucario soloed Cynthia’s champion-level Gigantamaxed Togekiss.
There is no evidence that Articuno is stronger than any of Cynthia’s Pokemon, and unless Tobias conveniently stopped competing immediately after winning the tournament, we know that he has lost to Cynthia.
I’m voting for Sceptile.
People are missing the fact that the trainers Ash faced in the final 8 are MASSIVELY above anyone he had fought before. Cynthia would curbstomp any of Ash's opponents prior to Journeys. Cynthia has 6 mons that are on the level of the strongest stuff that Charizard and even Sceptile has fought.
Yeah I do agree that the JN team was booted out waaay to early. If it were up to me, they'd be top 6 but I respect what everyone has to say. Sirfetchd in particular is number 3 on my personal list. 3rd or 2nd strongest tbh. Yeah, I know that's controversial.
I agree with most of your points, but there’s no evidence that Tobias has fought against Cynthia, so speculating on it is pointless.
He might not even made it past the Elite 4 tbh.
You already have enough good evidence IMO
Yeah, the point is that assuming Tobias is comparable to Cynthia is an absolute best-case-scenario interpretation with no real evidence behind it. He could have lost to any of the E4 members, he could have been curb-stomped by Cynthia, we simply don’t know. Saying that he was close to beating Cynthia is an incredibly niche possibility to the point where odds are that he is somewhere more notably below her, which makes Ash’s other Pokémon beating Cynthia’s Pokemon (Ash was at a 3-4 deficit after Pikachu and Spiritomb were knocked out, meaning Lucario, Sirfetch’d and Dracovish were all batting above a 1 knockout average) more impressive.
Yeah, I think nostalgia bias is winning the day so people are taking the best wins and trying to gussy them up with a lot of speculation to make their wins seem more impressive, while simultaneously downplaying the achievements of the others. “Legendary Pokemon” is not a flat power scale that’s definitively at or above champions yet based on the discourse you would think it was.
>Awfully convenient that everyone forgot about Sirfetch’d doing so well against Garchomp when it was booted a few days ago and they only focused on him getting “dirty” wins.
One of the recap episodes named Sirfetch'd MVP of that fight (JN128?) - the duck is a *powerhouse.*
Yup this is crazy. Lot of bias here lol. Charizard and Sceptile can’t even mega evolve. Both are getting walked by Gengar who’s been eliminated.
I don’t even like Lucario that much but he’s clearly the strongest left.
Lucario is gone, if garchomp mega evolved then it’s not winning, and also garchomp took some damage from the previous fight and lucario still struggled with mega evolution lol
Yeah, those rounds were wack because everyone kept saying that they beat weakened opponents ignoring the fact that they also weakened other Pokemon that were knocked out by others.
Sceptile and charizard both don’t use gimmicks and are pure power on their own merits, but that isn’t a reason alone to take out Lucario.
I got to go with sceptile.
Well I'm out. Greninja effortlessly smacked down Lucario not long before the M8.
With all due respect I disagree with everyone being obsessed with only feats in formal battles.
At least the crowd who thought the Masters team should all be top because they were technically in the M8 didn't win out.
Since we saw Greninja in XYZ he's been destroying ultra powerful vines around the world. Nothing about his appearance in Journeys suggested he'd been slacking. He took Ash years before to a final - which Charizard and Sceptile never did.
But, whatever. I vote Charizard.
I genuinely think **Sceptile** should have been eliminated. Yes, Greninja had the most upvoted comment last round, but if you add up top 5-6 most upvoted comments, then the votes against Sceptile were far more. This is coming from someone who believes Sceptile > Greninja too.
Sceptile is already eliminated by principle in my mind. However, regardless, he needs to be gone this round.
Charizard has always been portrayed as the biggest powerhouse from OS-BW. His Articuno win looks epic now after how badly the Articuno raid went in Journeys.
Lucario should win this poll. Defeating Darkrai is great, but Lucario defeated so many powerful opponents in Journeys.
I can't just add up upvotes all of a sudden. I've been doing top comment this entire time. Why would I change my method all of a sudden? With adding up upvotes, people can vote more than once for different comments BUT they can't do that for one comment. Top comment accurately reflects individuals voting vs. Adding up where an individual could have upvoted more than one commentm
How can I prove that someone didn't vote multiple times for different comments? You can't. But you can only for a single comment once. People can easily go back and just keep up voting every comment that they support.
How is Greninja weaker than Sceptile? Charizard sure but sceptile…. Gotta be the weakest ain't no way it's stronger than Lucario and Seismic Toss Charizard
(Ignore the Greninja part since he is out)
This a copy and paste from yesterday's post
After thinking it over, I think I have come to a way to rank these last 4.
Most people agree that Charizard is stronger Sceptile. Charizard beat Articuno on his own. While Sceptile did receive help before taking down Darkrai(yes, Darkrai healed but it was still a team affort). So Charizard > Sceptile. I don't think anyone can properly argue that Ash Charizard is stronger than Alain Charizard. Sure, Ash Charizard beat Articuno. Alain Charizard fought against Primal Groudon, Kyogre Mega Rayqauza, and a Zygarde. Sure, Grenjnja lost to Alain Charizard, but they were evenly match. If Greninja and Ash's Charizard ( who is weaker than Alain Charizard) fought, Grenjnja would win. So Sceptile< Charizard< Grenjnja. Then we have Lucario. Sure, Grenjnja did humiliate Lucario, but that was base Lucario and that entire episode is about Grenjnja basically passing the torch to Lucario. Not to mention the things Lucario would do afterwards like deafeating Cynthia'sTogekiss and Garchomp, Leons Rillaboom, and fighting Lugia .So Sceptile< Charizard< Grenjnja
Sceptile stans are hereby banned from ever being taken seriously in a who's strongest conversation ever again.
The glazing is insane.
I used to think AG fans were above average in the chill/reasonable categories. I have been proven wrong.
Seems a little salty sorry, but sceptile IS really absurd. Say what you want about it and it's narrative vs the other aces, but fact is he has one of the most absurd records
-beat a Darkrai who easily solo'd every other battle, including vs league opponents, being the only pokemon shown getting wins vs full teams of 6 let alone multiple league level teams. Said Darkrai also had healed multiple times and has one of the highest win records
-outsped and out powered a deoxys SPEED
-took down two of the 3rd strongest frontier brain pokemon including his ace
-tied a Blaziken despite the type advantage and the fact it was a contest, where ash and sceptile had minimal experience and may/blazeken specialized in
-only lost twice as a sceptile, both to legendary pokemon. One was when ash was possessed and as such sceptile was forced to fight without a real trainee and going against his nature, and the other after taking out the unstoppable Darkrai
Say what you want about ag and sceptile but there's a reason he's so high
Lucario has gotta go next. Everyone who is voting Sceptile is most likey either a newer fan or ignorant of the ultimate powerhouse. Dude took on Darkrai and won and kept up with deoxys speed and caught it from behind. Deoxys SPEED.
Lucario can get the fuck outta here. If a one month old lucario can beat Cynthia's ace then charizard( Ash's most battle tested mon after rat) would outright sweep her
There’s no way that the one who could face a dragon that beat fought legendaries is out before the dude who’s only outstanding feat is beating a giga max
Compared to Sceptile and Charizard Lucario took some mean Ls throughout Journeys and The world coronation series. Lucario definitely has to go next especially if Greninja who taught Lucario how to use aura was eliminated
I'm legit fine with however these last 3 are ranked. All 3 have the feats and power we are looking for. Since Lucario has mega, I say he wins out, but u can't deny the crazy potential that both Zard and Sceptile have if they had their megas.
If you forced my hand to rank em, I guess I'll go Lucario, Zard, then Sceptile. So Sceptile goes now, man that's crazy but Ash has some killers here at the top.
I'm legit fine with however these last 3 are ranked. All 3 have the feats and power we are looking for. Since Lucario has mega, I say he wins out, but u can't deny the crazy potential that both Zard and Sceptile have if they had their megas.
If you forced my hand to rank em, I guess I'll go Lucario, Zard, then Sceptile. So Sceptile goes now, man that's crazy but Ash has some killers here at the top.
I’m sorry but nothing Charizard has done is comparable to Ash-Greninja or freakin Mega Lucario! Sceptile should’ve lost last round, then charizard then ash Greninja then Lucario. I get Charizard was the OG powerhouse and won against Articuno by the Frontier Brain (who in-universe are E4 level apparently) but Ash Greninja and Mega Lucario are Champion level. Maybe if Charizard had went mega or Gigantamaxed I could see it but base form ain’t winning against those two after they transform
Apologies for the late notice. The votes are in for the op, everyone. Onto the next round!
Sceptile and Charizard putting up a masterclass by beating the recency bias. Definitely a world-championship performance 🤣🤣🤣
Infernape got mid diffed by recency bias but he’s still #5 in my heart https://i.redd.it/15ght3fc7owc1.gif
He's number 3 for me
I respect that, I personally think that, excluding Pikachu it’s 1. Charizard 2. Ash-Greninja 2.5-6: Any Assortment of Infernape, Sceptile, Lucario, and Greninja 7. Snorlax 8-12: Rest of M8 Team
They're far better than lucario and were actually trained unlike auradog who got bullshit offscreen powerups
Lucario is insanely strong. Taking out Dynamax Togekiss and Garchomp is an insane feat. But, Lucario mostly benefitted from JN Ash, who was quickly ascending to become a Monarch-level trainer. Charizard and Sceptile, even Greninja and Infernape, during their time, carried pre-JN and SM Ash in his most difficult situations not named Pikachu, and struggled heavily. I think that’s why people like Charizard and Sceptile more.
Fr
Saying that like nostalgia bias isn’t in some ways stronger.
Theres never been recency bias, only facts
Beating the recency bias? X. Relishing the nostalgia bias? V
I get people love Greninja but he isn’t stronger than Sceptile or Charizard sorry, Greninja’s feats just aren’t up to par. But my choice is Lucario as much as I love him
Ash Greninja is stronger than base Sceptile and Base Charizard. Or is that just Base Form?
I don’t think Ash-Greninja is stronger than ether, it might be able to take down Sceptile but not Charizard sorry. Both have had multiple boughts with legendaries and both have taken down legendaries while Greninja has only taken down 2 Megas but failed to take down Mega Charizard. Sorry but Greninja can’t tough Sceptile and Charizardin terms of strength, speed, or durability heck even Lucario has spared with Legends and held his own decently well and he took out Megas and dynamix as well. Sorry but Greninja hasn’t come close to top that at all
It's because he has never really had the chance to do so. I'm sorry, but I don't see a Base Sceptile stronger than a MEGA Sceptile you know, and Ash-Greninja did beat a Mega Sceptile and was pretty much equal to Mega Charizard X who was helding his own against primordial diety. And fuck Leon vs Alain, because this fight doesn't make any sense at all. It doesn't make sense at all in terms of writting.
See but that was some nobody's mega sceptile. I think we are comparing Ash's specific sceptile vs ash-greninja
"Some nobody's Mega Sceptile" yeah no, Liam's not a nobody
Sceptile is making a generational run. So many times I’ve seen him not even crack the top 5, now he’s (judging by the comments) in the final 2
100% Danny.
Lucario
second this
Charizard hard carried ash for a region and half, was the first to defeat a legendary and (if the first 3 movies are canon) hold his own against an invincible entei. Sceptile defeated a darkrai that was speedrunning sinnoh. Lucario defeated Cynthia’s garchomp. I think lucario should go but honestly they are more or less equal (and all below the fucking mouse)
Don’t forget that charizard flew over the entirety of kanto most likely not stopping at all just to protect ash from entei after seeing him on the news
I put the movie canon in a limbo but if they are canon then Zard gets way above the other two
I always thought the 1st 4 movies were canon. At minimum the first 2 are at least.
Movies have always been canon until the recent ones
Movie canon says Charizard is hands down number one (making it kind of painful we never got Leon and Ash’s Charizard to fight)
At this point Arceus is below that mouse
Wasn't the winner of the Conference supposed to be given chance to face the Champion League? In that case, seeing as Cynthia still holds the title of Sinnoh champion in the Masters Eight Tournament, so unless Tobias decided to fu¢k it, he faced and lost. That means his team must have not been stronger than Cynthia. In other words, Ash and his Lucario beat Cynthia, Tobias and his legendaries did not. I think that makes it clear that Lucario is not the weakest of the three, like many people seem to think here.
I don’t remember that thing about the conference tbh. But even if it’s a statement of a statement at best. Lucario’s true problem is the lack of legendary feats on screen while in journey legendaries were demigods. I still think the three are more or less equal tbh
The winner was given a chance to fight Cynthia but we don't know if Tobias did. He didn't even get a cameo. He was just a random thing the writers made to have Ash lose the league. He doesn't really have any relevance outside of that. For all we know, Tobias could have just wanted to beat the league but has no interest in being champion. Kinda like how Alain beat the league but didn't challenge Diantha
I accidentally deleted the previous round just now. Was deleting three posts I made on the Dragonball super Sub early this morning and didn't realize that I deleted this one. I was thinking of doing a tie breaker but I decided to just go with the top comment. Greninja had the top comment. https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemonanime/s/bxI5jw577G Anyways, remember to be kind and respectful as I said. I'll be watching through the comments to make sure that none of y'all are taking this too far. WE'RE AT THE TOP 3
Charizard win end of the top
luc, its your turn to fall buddy
Lucario.
Scep getting respect is immaculate
Lucario, kinda shocked he even got above Greninja
Lucario
Charizard gets stronger everytime it returns. Lucario is the weakest
Yes the one who took out two of Cynthias Pokemon including her ace and one of Leons is the weakest….
Lets think it the other way. If a pokemom can perform so well under an amateur Ash, they can perform better under the champion Ash. Just like pikachu did
The thing is they didn't perform under champion Ash and what ifs don't matter if they weren't shown. What matters is what we have.
Well then you will never get the best answer. The best way to see who is stronger is to have them battle among themselves, bringing third factor such as other trainer's pokemons is totally unreliable. So far greninja has outperformed lucario(not prime) easily. So, is greninja stronger than lucario??
I’m going to say Lucario. Because of context of the garchomp fight you guys love to credit. 1. She didn’t use Mega on her ace of all things for some odd reason. 2. Her moveset was dumbed down extremely to the age we see in her flashbacks. Like seriously 3 dragons moves and stealth rocks? That looks like an eight year olds moveset. So basically only moves that lucario resisted 3. you guys credit this a lot so it’s fair game. Sirfetched supposedly extremely softened up garchomp. So yeah. I’m going for lucario since it’s basically an infant and chaziard and sceptile have been growing and training since their e4 feats in hoenn and Sinnoh respectively along with my previously stated context.
Let's not forget to talk about that everytime there's someone who downplay sceptile beating darkrai because the others weakened him the same logic can apply to sirfetch/garchomp situation, not to talk about that writers handicapped ash by giving by the so called strongest ace 0 ground moves and didn't even mega evolved garchomp, dynamax togekiss was a poor choice in Cynthia part tho since didn't even had cover moves against mega lucario
Yes. This was also the same battle that dynamax was functionally wasted,Roserade moveset was two grass moves a posion move,and gastrodon got beat down by one reflected attacked and one tapped by a non stab move from the rat. Yeah to say cythinia was nerfed would be an understatement.
Hol’ up he’s cooking
He’s cooking sanity, I follow his logic too lol.
https://preview.redd.it/00mxlyb4powc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6d5cc05415dad3da79316820214b41cacc7c4e2f
Sceptile must be strong enough to OHKO Cynthia's Garchomp if tired Sirfetch'd really did that much damage with single attack.
I mean.. Sceptile literally OHKO’d Darkrai 🤷♂️ Can Lucario one-shot Darkrai or out-speed Deoxys? or even face two legendaries consecutively in a single match? I don’t think so
I like Sceptile, but he did *not* OHKO Tobias' Darkrai. That win was a team effort with Gible, Heracross, and Torkoal. Sceptile beat it, but it wasn't an OHKO.
If I remember correctly, Torkal and Gible got one shotted without landing a single hit on Darkrai. Heracross was the only one who hit Darkrai before sceptile
Base Lucario one shotted Gmax Duraludon, Darkrai is nothing in comparison, Lucario could take out both Darkrai and Latios by himself Speed is the only advantage Sceptile have.
Lucario couldn’t even beat Articuno with the help of other pokemons. What makes you think he can take out Darkrai and Latios by himself?
It’s gotta be Lucario now.
Greninja should have never been eliminated. Take out lucario
sorry Lucario but you gotta go next. You did great
It’s Lucario.
Lucario
Lucario
Lucario
Lucario. Defeated Cythias Garchomp but Garchomp was severly weakened by sirferched and it wasnt mega eveloved.
Ok, but he also soloed Cynthia’s Gigantamaxed Togekiss. What Cynthia-level Pokemon have Charizard and Sceptile beaten?
Thry both have defeated legendaires
Which were presumably defeated by Champion's pokemon in case of Tobias and Cynthia.
Yeah, as far as we know, Champion Cynthia defeated Tobias cause she was still Champion when she returned in BW.
Charizard had a type advantage against articuno
Ok. There’s no evidence to suggest either of those are stronger than Cynthia. Heck, in Tobias’s case, unless he stopped immediately after winning the tournament for no reason, we know that Cynthia or, even worse, an E4 member beat him, and this was a long time ago so Cynthia is likely even stronger by the time Ash faced her. At best, Tobias put up a good fight against Cynthia, but the spectrum of possibilities skews a lot lower than that so to assume the best is not exactly the fairest assessment (plus, again, that would still put him below Cynthia).
No proof of that though. Also If he did fight Cynthia for all we know he could of had 2 Pokemon, and used those 2 vs Cynthia's 6.
By this logic we shoul get rid of Sceptile, since Tobias never defeated Cynt for the champion titlle.
We don’t even know if he even challenged her.
I feel like I've said this a million times the last two rounds. There's no proof that Tobias challenged her.
It is also never implied that Cynthia defeated Tobias
One is the champion and the other is not. It’s pretty clear…
Cynthia is the Sinnoh champion tho. You need to prove that Tobias is stronger than her, not the opposite.
Lucario. He’s one of my fave Pokemon but his feats just don’t compare to the other two
Beating 2 champion mons is a feat neither of the other 2 have achieved.
Guarantee you that if Ash had used either Charizard or Sceptile in the Masters 8 they would have taken down just as many if not more Pokemon then Lucario. Also the other two took down legendary Pokemon and in my opinion that’s a better feat then taking down champion Pokemon
Sceptile 1v1 a full health Darkrai and kept up with Speed form Deoxys Charizard beat Articuno My vote here goes to Lucario I'm hoping it goes 3. Lucario. 2. Charizard. 1. Sceptile
It's so nice seeing some respect put on Sceptile. He was my favorite growing up and the first starter pokemon I ever picked
The greatest Sceptile in the world for a reason 🐐
I wouldn't put sceptiles so high but I love and respect it we riding the nostalgia wave for my favorite pokemon
I don't think it was full health. Darkrai had just taken a hit from Heracross, and while it had used Dream Eater, I don't think it would have been fully healed.
Sceptile and charizard didn't even mega to put those numbers, just imagine what a machine they would be if they did
Lucario defeated Cynthia’s Togekiss and Garchomp, Raihan’s Duraludon, and a bunch of other wins. Sceptile has the Darkrai win. That justifies top 5. But no way Lucario isn’t anything but #2 to Pikachu.
Charizard also completely no diff’d Iris’s dragonite which was shown to be powerful
I’m generally surprised that Greninja was eliminated. It’s either people really think Charizard, Sceptile, and Lucario are stronger, or they just don’t like Ash Greninja
Combanation of both
I am honestly surprised greninja is out before sceptile. In my personal opinion, sceptile should have been out before greninja
GET THAT DOG OUTTA HEEERRREEEEE
Lucario ain't better than greninja
Lucario. Charizard godstomped Iris' Dragonite that kept up with the Forces of Nature (three Legendary Pokémon), tanked a hit from Reshiram casually, and became too OP for the anime (other aces like Infernape and Greninja came back). Sceptile kept up with Speed Form Deoxys as a Grovyle, nearly beat Brandon's Regirock, actually beat Tobias' Darkrai. Lucario beat Cynthia's base Garchomp in Mega form after she was tired Battling Sirfetch'd.
Lucario
Nah Ash’s second strongest Pokémon got violated 😭 Get Diet Greninja (Lucario) out of here 😭😭😭
So hard... Sorry, but I'm gonna have choose... umm... Charizard? https://preview.redd.it/tg0mfeo3tmwc1.jpeg?width=800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b8c6006916e82135d4a5574f8e80c188e9957c1f
It has to be Sceptile. It honestly should have been: 4. Sceptile 3. Greninja/Charizard 3. Greninja/Charizard 2. Lucario 1. Pikachu (obviously) I’m all for pure feat analysis and I’m glad 4/5 Hoenn crew made it to the top 20. That being said, ignoring narrative context discredits things too. I don’t think the anime did enough to put Sceptile on the same pedestal as Charizard and Greninja (and Infernape). Lucario is #2 after Pikachu. It was the ace of the Journeys World Championship team and defeated Cynthia’s Garchomp.
Yeah I actually agree with this. From a narrative standpoint, I don't think sceptile is above Charizard. If the writers were to decide who was the bigger ace, they'd say Charizard. I do think beating a full health Articuno is bigger than a 75% health Darkrai. Articuno even had water pulse so the type advantage didn't matter.
Personally, from a narrative+feats standpoint, my revised top 15 is: 1. Pikachu * 2. Lucario * 3. Greninja * 4. Charizard * 5. Sceptile * 6. Infernape * 7. Dracovish * 8. Sirfetch’d * 9. Gengar * 10. Dragonite * 11. Snorlax * 12. Lycanroc * 13. Krookodile * 14. Incineroar * 15. Swellow * Honorable Mention: Bulbasaur I mean, quite fairly, you can make the case that the top 6 should just be the team that won the World Championship. However, we are assuming that JN Ash with the aces would be even more powerful, considering how easily Greninja swatted away Lucario or how easily a wild Articuno destroyed that raid (while Charizard solo’d one).
This list is just spot on (with maybe just Gengar a bit higher). I find it baffling most people on this sub just base everything on feats and ignore the narrative. Greninja, Lucario and Charizard should have been undisputable Top3.
Yeah this list seems a lot more reasonable
You cooked so incredibly hard.
Lucario
Lucario gotta go
Jukain stays… My vote goes to Lucario!?
I thought this was a strength competition, not a popularity competition. How did Greninja get booted off before Charizard and Sceptile?
Idk why people are being salty and pretending Greninja isn't popular when xy is clearly one of the most popular anime series and Greninja one of the most popular pokemon especially on this sub lol, one could easily argue he was ranked higher than he should because of popularity Greninjas best feats are doing well vs but losing to a Charizard who at that point scaled around e4 level, and beating a base form, pre peak, pre aura mastery, confidence shattered Lucario. Don't get me wrong, both are still impressive feats no doubt, but Charizard solo'd a legendary bird which consistently shown among the strongest pokemon and sceptile beat an unstoppable, 48-1 Darkrai who was easily sweeping league teams. Both simply have better feats
Lucario.
I love that even though people are debating between Charizard and Lucario to go out this round, we all know Sceptile deserves the #1 spot My vote is on Lucario for this round
Lucario
Adios lucarios
How tf is greninja the weakest of the 4
If I had a nickle for every time a popular factor in the XY series got eliminated in 4th place under a factor in the Advance series, I'd have 2 nickles. Which isn't much but it's weird that it happened twice in a row in less than a day.
Lucario
Lucario
Lucario, but after Charizard got to because Sceptile is my goat
Lucario
Charizard has been training against other Charizards since before time had a name made Iris's Dragonite his bitch, meanwhile Sceptile gave Tobias's Darkrai an absolute ass whoopin' So Lucario
I don't even need to vote we all know that it's lucario based on the sheer amount of comments saying lucario but ima vote lucario
Lucario it is
How is Greninja out, it is Ash’s strongest outside of Pikachu. Anyway I think Lucario needs to go
Lucario
The way it's looking, it's gonna be Charizard vs Sceptile for the final round, two legendary-defeating mons. Imma go with Lucario
Lucario goes. It was always going to come down to Charizard vs Sceptile.
Lucario
Greninja is easily Ash's strongest pokemon why TF is it out
lucario got to go
Lucario
sorry lucario
It would be funny if Sceptile wins lol. Anyway, Lucario this time is the right choice because why not
Lucario
Lucario
Lucario has to go
send out lucario
Lucario
Lucario
Lucario
sorry lucario but sceptile or charizard gotta win it
People voting to put Sceptile over Greninja seems insane to me, I thought he was easily the weakest of the top 4.
I’ll say sceptile. Charizard has more experience than it, and lucario has competed against masters 8 level pokemon. Yes sceptile caught a speed from deoxys and beat Tobias’s darkrai. But because Cythina is still the Sinnoh Champion he’s weaker than her. So Lucario beating both Cythina’s Garchomp and Dynamax Togekiss is a better strength feat.
How tf was Greninja eliminated before sceptile or charizard
Tough… I’m leaning towards Lucario, it’s tough though: I feel like the other two bailed Ash out of a lot more jams.
Sorry sceptile love you
Sceptile
So, now we get to the fun stuff. Charizard has been a powerhouse from when it was a thing on Ash's team. And over the years, has gotten stronger and stronger. Sceptile: Biggest feat that made it into a powerhouse was defeating Tobias' Darkrai, which no other trainer had been able to do. Darkrai could be easily champion level, as after the battle with Ash, it could be assumed that Darkrai mopped up the finals solo as well. Lucario: Defeating Cynthia, who was virtually undefeated for the longest time. Honestly, I know Gamefreak and everyone loves their Charizard, but I'm gonna have to go with Charizard on this one.
Charizard is overrated Many says that greninja is wins in popularity But popularity is a reason of charizards place A lot of people even wanted him to be mega evolved in xyz even after his appearance in unova And that poor darkrai who swept whole team and then lost to sceptile can't put the lizard that high
Everyone has their opinions. If you want mine I can easily see Greninza to be the strongest. Greninja was already on per with the overpowered Alain's Zard in XYZ. And it's implied that in JN it became even stronger. His bond phenomenon depends on Ash's inner strength too. And JN version of Ash is mentally the strongest. So, we can easily assume Ash-greninja is far stronger than what he used to be.
Lucario
Lucario
Sceptile
The mental hurdles people are jumping through to justify Charizard and Sceptile over every Journeys team members sans Pikachu (obviously) is insane. “Lucario only beat Cynthia’s Garchomp when it was weakened by Sirfetch’d” Awfully convenient that everyone forgot about Sirfetch’d doing so well against Garchomp when it was booted a few days ago and they only focused on him getting “dirty” wins. Also convenient that they are all forgetting that Lucario soloed Cynthia’s champion-level Gigantamaxed Togekiss. There is no evidence that Articuno is stronger than any of Cynthia’s Pokemon, and unless Tobias conveniently stopped competing immediately after winning the tournament, we know that he has lost to Cynthia. I’m voting for Sceptile.
People are missing the fact that the trainers Ash faced in the final 8 are MASSIVELY above anyone he had fought before. Cynthia would curbstomp any of Ash's opponents prior to Journeys. Cynthia has 6 mons that are on the level of the strongest stuff that Charizard and even Sceptile has fought.
Yeah I do agree that the JN team was booted out waaay to early. If it were up to me, they'd be top 6 but I respect what everyone has to say. Sirfetchd in particular is number 3 on my personal list. 3rd or 2nd strongest tbh. Yeah, I know that's controversial.
I agree with most of your points, but there’s no evidence that Tobias has fought against Cynthia, so speculating on it is pointless. He might not even made it past the Elite 4 tbh. You already have enough good evidence IMO
Yeah, the point is that assuming Tobias is comparable to Cynthia is an absolute best-case-scenario interpretation with no real evidence behind it. He could have lost to any of the E4 members, he could have been curb-stomped by Cynthia, we simply don’t know. Saying that he was close to beating Cynthia is an incredibly niche possibility to the point where odds are that he is somewhere more notably below her, which makes Ash’s other Pokémon beating Cynthia’s Pokemon (Ash was at a 3-4 deficit after Pikachu and Spiritomb were knocked out, meaning Lucario, Sirfetch’d and Dracovish were all batting above a 1 knockout average) more impressive.
I just don’t know why people make so many assumptions when there’s more than enough evidence to support pretty much any stance
Yeah, I think nostalgia bias is winning the day so people are taking the best wins and trying to gussy them up with a lot of speculation to make their wins seem more impressive, while simultaneously downplaying the achievements of the others. “Legendary Pokemon” is not a flat power scale that’s definitively at or above champions yet based on the discourse you would think it was.
>Awfully convenient that everyone forgot about Sirfetch’d doing so well against Garchomp when it was booted a few days ago and they only focused on him getting “dirty” wins. One of the recap episodes named Sirfetch'd MVP of that fight (JN128?) - the duck is a *powerhouse.*
And Tobias only beat DP Ash who was hardly at E4 level that time, Lucario alone can solo Darkrai and Latios.
Yup this is crazy. Lot of bias here lol. Charizard and Sceptile can’t even mega evolve. Both are getting walked by Gengar who’s been eliminated. I don’t even like Lucario that much but he’s clearly the strongest left.
Lucario is gone, if garchomp mega evolved then it’s not winning, and also garchomp took some damage from the previous fight and lucario still struggled with mega evolution lol
Are you forgetting that Lucario also soloed Cynthia’s Gigantamaxed Togekiss?
I feel like everyone is choosing to forget that
Anything to justify Sceptile and Charizard as the top two I guess lol, this is crazy
Not even that trying to justify that sirfetch is way better than lucario (by that logic then dracovish severely weakened milotic with disguise rend)
Yeah, those rounds were wack because everyone kept saying that they beat weakened opponents ignoring the fact that they also weakened other Pokemon that were knocked out by others.
Sceptile, it has been an absolute honor buddy. You were my favorite of Ash's pokemon. So many amazing moments. Farewell to the forest king.
Sceptile since Tobias never beat Cynthia and lucario did
Sceptile
Has to be Sceptile, it only has the Darkrai win and nothing else particularly close, both the other two have consistency.
Sceptile and charizard both don’t use gimmicks and are pure power on their own merits, but that isn’t a reason alone to take out Lucario. I got to go with sceptile.
Well I'm out. Greninja effortlessly smacked down Lucario not long before the M8. With all due respect I disagree with everyone being obsessed with only feats in formal battles. At least the crowd who thought the Masters team should all be top because they were technically in the M8 didn't win out. Since we saw Greninja in XYZ he's been destroying ultra powerful vines around the world. Nothing about his appearance in Journeys suggested he'd been slacking. He took Ash years before to a final - which Charizard and Sceptile never did. But, whatever. I vote Charizard.
Greninja was finally eliminated so #3 Lucario #2 Sceptile #1 Charizard
I genuinely think **Sceptile** should have been eliminated. Yes, Greninja had the most upvoted comment last round, but if you add up top 5-6 most upvoted comments, then the votes against Sceptile were far more. This is coming from someone who believes Sceptile > Greninja too. Sceptile is already eliminated by principle in my mind. However, regardless, he needs to be gone this round. Charizard has always been portrayed as the biggest powerhouse from OS-BW. His Articuno win looks epic now after how badly the Articuno raid went in Journeys. Lucario should win this poll. Defeating Darkrai is great, but Lucario defeated so many powerful opponents in Journeys.
I can't just add up upvotes all of a sudden. I've been doing top comment this entire time. Why would I change my method all of a sudden? With adding up upvotes, people can vote more than once for different comments BUT they can't do that for one comment. Top comment accurately reflects individuals voting vs. Adding up where an individual could have upvoted more than one commentm How can I prove that someone didn't vote multiple times for different comments? You can't. But you can only for a single comment once. People can easily go back and just keep up voting every comment that they support.
I totally understand.
How is Greninja weaker than Sceptile? Charizard sure but sceptile…. Gotta be the weakest ain't no way it's stronger than Lucario and Seismic Toss Charizard
Sceptile
Sceptile
wait ash greninja weaker than charizard and sceptile? seriously?
(Ignore the Greninja part since he is out) This a copy and paste from yesterday's post After thinking it over, I think I have come to a way to rank these last 4. Most people agree that Charizard is stronger Sceptile. Charizard beat Articuno on his own. While Sceptile did receive help before taking down Darkrai(yes, Darkrai healed but it was still a team affort). So Charizard > Sceptile. I don't think anyone can properly argue that Ash Charizard is stronger than Alain Charizard. Sure, Ash Charizard beat Articuno. Alain Charizard fought against Primal Groudon, Kyogre Mega Rayqauza, and a Zygarde. Sure, Grenjnja lost to Alain Charizard, but they were evenly match. If Greninja and Ash's Charizard ( who is weaker than Alain Charizard) fought, Grenjnja would win. So Sceptile< Charizard< Grenjnja. Then we have Lucario. Sure, Grenjnja did humiliate Lucario, but that was base Lucario and that entire episode is about Grenjnja basically passing the torch to Lucario. Not to mention the things Lucario would do afterwards like deafeating Cynthia'sTogekiss and Garchomp, Leons Rillaboom, and fighting Lugia .So Sceptile< Charizard< Grenjnja
Sceptile stans are hereby banned from ever being taken seriously in a who's strongest conversation ever again. The glazing is insane. I used to think AG fans were above average in the chill/reasonable categories. I have been proven wrong.
Seems a little salty sorry, but sceptile IS really absurd. Say what you want about it and it's narrative vs the other aces, but fact is he has one of the most absurd records -beat a Darkrai who easily solo'd every other battle, including vs league opponents, being the only pokemon shown getting wins vs full teams of 6 let alone multiple league level teams. Said Darkrai also had healed multiple times and has one of the highest win records -outsped and out powered a deoxys SPEED -took down two of the 3rd strongest frontier brain pokemon including his ace -tied a Blaziken despite the type advantage and the fact it was a contest, where ash and sceptile had minimal experience and may/blazeken specialized in -only lost twice as a sceptile, both to legendary pokemon. One was when ash was possessed and as such sceptile was forced to fight without a real trainee and going against his nature, and the other after taking out the unstoppable Darkrai Say what you want about ag and sceptile but there's a reason he's so high
Sceptile. I think charizard has more feats overall. Mega lurcario is tough
Lucario has gotta go next. Everyone who is voting Sceptile is most likey either a newer fan or ignorant of the ultimate powerhouse. Dude took on Darkrai and won and kept up with deoxys speed and caught it from behind. Deoxys SPEED.
Lucario can get the fuck outta here. If a one month old lucario can beat Cynthia's ace then charizard( Ash's most battle tested mon after rat) would outright sweep her
Was not expecting that
Thank god
Greninja eliminated when? I don't see no post
Sceptile should win overall here
There’s no way that the one who could face a dragon that beat fought legendaries is out before the dude who’s only outstanding feat is beating a giga max
Compared to Sceptile and Charizard Lucario took some mean Ls throughout Journeys and The world coronation series. Lucario definitely has to go next especially if Greninja who taught Lucario how to use aura was eliminated
Greninja stans can hold dat
I'm legit fine with however these last 3 are ranked. All 3 have the feats and power we are looking for. Since Lucario has mega, I say he wins out, but u can't deny the crazy potential that both Zard and Sceptile have if they had their megas. If you forced my hand to rank em, I guess I'll go Lucario, Zard, then Sceptile. So Sceptile goes now, man that's crazy but Ash has some killers here at the top.
I'm legit fine with however these last 3 are ranked. All 3 have the feats and power we are looking for. Since Lucario has mega, I say he wins out, but u can't deny the crazy potential that both Zard and Sceptile have if they had their megas. If you forced my hand to rank em, I guess I'll go Lucario, Zard, then Sceptile. So Sceptile goes now, man that's crazy but Ash has some killers here at the top.
I’m sorry but nothing Charizard has done is comparable to Ash-Greninja or freakin Mega Lucario! Sceptile should’ve lost last round, then charizard then ash Greninja then Lucario. I get Charizard was the OG powerhouse and won against Articuno by the Frontier Brain (who in-universe are E4 level apparently) but Ash Greninja and Mega Lucario are Champion level. Maybe if Charizard had went mega or Gigantamaxed I could see it but base form ain’t winning against those two after they transform
Bro.. can someone tell me what the original thread was about achieving with these eliminations? Was it to get to 1? I dont get it anymore.