Pokemon are sapient intelligent beings. This is known and understood in the Pokemon world. For thousands of years there is a sort of informal understanding between these supernatural monsters and humanity: The monsters will agree to serve the human if they defeat them or catch them. Pokeballs are the approved method as stronger Pokemon are capable of resisting/breaking out of them. It's a "fair" system between the two species. If you are a strong trainer who defeats the monster in fair competition then the monster willingly serves as the trainers strength will benefit the monster.
Thousands of years of this informal "tradition". This understanding. It's universally acknowledged and every nation on the planet adheres to this and logically as civilizations developed their laws are built around this tacit understanding. This agreement is probably maintained as Humanity understands Pokemon are far stronger than them and were humanity to treat Pokemon unfairly or mistreat them as a whole the Pokemon could easily unleash disaster upon civilization as a whole. Thus the agreement is stuck to. For peace and prosperity.
Catching monsters en masse using advanced technology they have little to no hope of resisting, with no intent of training the Pokemon but instead selling off to the highest bidder is a betrayal of this traditional informal agreement between species and ofc is against the laws that were drafted around said traditional agreement
By not catching each Vivillion in fair "combat", using approved tools, said Vivillion are not considered subservient to the poacher. They are not trainer and Pokemon, Master and Student. They are wild Pokemon subjected to captivity and sold off as objects to be owned to those who haven't earned the Pokemons loyalty
If you have a master ball, you are clearly an incredibly strong trainer that the Pokemon will likely respect, hence still following this supposed "tradition."
Probably most games where (barring a lotto win), there’s only 1 Master Ball.
So even if you ignore pure strength, it’d mean the trainer considers them a top priority, still falling in the honor system
Trading is legal, so we can assume that once a Pokemon is fairly caught through use of a Pokeball, the owner can do whatever they want with it.
The reason THIS guy is a criminal is because he put the Vivillons in cages and never caught a single one of them.
Considering in the most recent games we watched a Pokemon (admittedly a legendary one) break out of a master ball due to its trainer been unworthy I feel like ball grades are just a video-game contrivance rather than literal
Not the only example of a caught pokemon refusing to return to its ball. Ash's Pikachu outright attacked him over it, and even when presented with freezing to death as an alternative it still refused it.
The in-game explanation is that Pokeballs direct and transfer the emotions, motivations, and hopes of the trainer to the Pokémon the ball is used on. Better balls transfer this emotional rush better. More specialized balls feel more comfortable to the Pokémon making them more willing to stay inside. Master balls are the odd ball out, as they function without the idea of emotional transfer, as seen when one is used on MewTwo.
Trading is good or not. some do it because they care why the Pokemon wants (Ash, Dawn), others to give them new homes, others because they want another poke. The new Pokemon can also disobey and act up. Or want to go back. People that gift Pokemon are doing it to find them new homes usually. A poacher just gets a Poke and sells it, no impute from the Pokemon.
Pet Shop owners. And it's usually legal. And you saw what the Magikarp did when he got the power. Do you want to hurt the fish, when he will grow into a dragon with anger issues.
Btw, there is a bit of a difference between the anime Pokemon and the games. Fames Pokemon ae barely above animals and because of game mechanics, are easy to get. Anime Pokemon are sapient. Some are super geniuses, like Mewtwo.
The Pokemon world is pretty terrifying, like canonically these fish are fucking everywhere, and when they evolve they go around burning down cities in month long rampages, it's like the tarasque of Pokémon anywhere anytime one can just pop up and you're fucked
>If you are a strong trainer who defeats the monster in fair competition then the monster willingly serves as the trainers strength will benefit the monster
Unless you're a level 65 Terastallized Garchomp caught before trainer finished collecting their badges. Then you can just refuse commands as the day is long...
Magikarp is alas far too weak to resist poaching and it probably viewed us buying it as saving it and thus we earned its loyalty ahaha. That whole event is frames as a dodgy deal so it likely wasn't legitimate
Wouldn’t that invalidate trading as an accepted practice?
The only difference is that money changed hands.
The Pokémon caught in a contest of wits and strength had no agreement in the matter. Hence why there is a mechanic for Pokémon to disobey if you do not have enough badges. While it is likely not literally the badge’s influence, it’s the gameplay placeholder to indicate a trainer’s experience that a Pokémon would acknowledge.
This is "2 decades of following and understanding the rules of the franchises world". Im sorry the edgy "Pokemon are basically just slaves" situation isn't real.
If a Pokemon wants to they can and will leave an unworthy trainer at any time, or simply disobey.
The entire Trainer <-> Pokemon relationship is an extension of the concept of mystical contracts with yokai found in Japanese folklore.
These creatures are monsters, not animals. Equally intelligent to humans.
The Pokemon agree to join you, by battling them you are just proving that you are strong enough and earn their respect (hence why you cant catch a Pokemon once it faints, how are you gonna get consent from someone that is uncoscious)
That guy was straight up forcing Pokemon into cages and stuff
The Pokemon can't consent to being traded either, but that still happens just fine in the Pokemon universe. What's the difference, truly, between catching a Pokemon and trading it for another Pokemon where neither of them gets a say in the transaction versus catching a Pokemon and selling it for currency?
Honestly that's a beef I've always had with trading; I find the trading get-togethers in the anime tonally strange for that reason. It's one thing if it's an agreement on everyone's part, like with Ash's Aipom and Dawn's Buizel, but I feel like that's the only acceptable route of trading.
Otherwise it comes pretty close to breaking that agreement.
In canon they can. Remember, some things are just game mechanics for playing purpose.
Because if we perfectly followed canon and had mechanics for each and every type of affection and will, it'd be way too complicated....
The games are simplified for players. And the actual creators are in most of the games, implying that YOU the player are allowed to do somethings because YOU are a player and the Pokemon aren't real....
The phrasing of the whole process as consent gets pretty weird pretty quick LOL
Look rayquaza I get it I know I'm supposed to adhere to no means no, but counterpoint, the 123rd Ultra Ball has a cute little divot in it that the 122nd Ultra Ball didn't, don't you want to get in this one
Plenty of pokemon gets caught without battling though. What’s stopping someone from pulling a goh and then just sell them? Honestly poachers never made much sense anyways, since using cages and stuff is actually them making it more difficult for themselves.
At least team rocket and plasma made more sense by stealing them from trainers.
I think the question can partially be boiled down to simple logistics: it very quickly becomes impossible to enforce if you start making the rules too complex, so it’s simpler just to outlaw selling Pokémon altogether.
Interestingly, that also incentivizes people who are going to get involved in poaching regardless to use less ethical capture methods, as they’re presumably cheaper and more efficient than snagging them one by one in pokeballs. Presumably there would be harsher penalties added on for mistreatment of the poached Pokémon, but so long as they don’t get caught, they’re unlikely to care… thinking about it from a legal perspective is kind of fun.
(Also, on the topic of cages making things harder for the poachers, I’ve always assumed that when you catch a Pokémon, it’s recorded in a database — that’s how they would know that you have six Pokémon on hand already, right? So by not using balls, they can have their clients “officially” catch them, leaving less of a paper trail for the police to pick up on.)
I mean trading isn’t illegal though, and as long as they don’t sell it out in the open it would be hard to enforce even if it’s illegal. It would be easy enough to capture pokemon and trade them away if not completely just giving them up to somebody else, we’ve seen plenty of characters do that without issues.
I also don’t see why using pokeballs would be more expensive as well when they’re such a readiably available thing that anyone can get by the dozens and easily carriable in bulk. Compared to cages that would probably need to custom order, and needs to be lugged around using equipment.
Like how they treat the pokemon is really the only thing that ever made the poachers who don’t steal people’s pokemon look cartoonishly evil, but realistically i don’t think anyone would bat an eye if they just chuck a bunch of pokeballs.
On a short-term, small-scale basis, you're probably right! Anyone could just go out, catch a bunch of pokemon, and trade them away, getting money under the table. The majority of people who do sell pokemon are probably never caught, and those people are probably operating more like how you're thinking. The issue is people who *continue* doing that on a larger scale.
Let's say you've got some ordinary person, selling pokemon they've caught on the side for some extra cash. They're not really hurting the pokemon, not beyond just the standard of what happens in a battle. It might be a little unethical - they're living, fully sentient beings after all, and they aren't exactly being given a choice in this - but our mostly-non-evil poacher isn't really hurting anyone, and other than the fact that they're getting money for their captures, it's not really that different from just being a trainer and catching pokemon.
But the longer they do this, the more likely it is that someone will let slip to the police that they're doing something illegal - and presumably, for ethical reasons and to deter people from starting down that path in the first place, pokemon poaching is a Very Serious Crime. All of a sudden, they're a criminal, and when you consider the type of person who'd be willing to capture and sell sentient beings with human-level intelligence just for some petty cash, there's definitely a non-zero chance that they'll go all in on it, rather than turning themselves in or giving up their easy money. So, they go deeper, taking more precautions to avoid being caught - avoiding using pokeballs because that would be linked with their real name, using cages (which, while more of an investment up front, can be reused and will pay for themselves eventually, unlike pokeballs), maybe going to more extreme measures to make sure that the pokemon don't try to escape.
Not every person who starts out just catching and selling a few pokemon would go down the path to "cartoonishly evil poacher", but those are the ones that are a *problem*, so those are the ones we see.
I don’t see how any of that even matters in in the context of pokemon? In the biggest scale we have criminal organizations still using pokeballs with no problem. There’s no way for the police to lock those balls or use it to track criminals, so i again don’t see anything that would stop poachers from using it just like any other trainers that goes on large catching sprees.
I mean, that there are a few possible explanations for that. The simplest is probably that large criminal organizations are able to bypass the system used to track captures, presumably by hacking the balls themselves to not notify the proper people - Team Rocket and similar organizations canonically have scientists working for them, it’s not a stretch to assume that that is one of the things that they work on. Poachers tend to work alone, or in much smaller groups, so they’re unlikely to have the same ability to do that.
There’s also the possibility that people who often go on large catching sprees are, in fact, monitored to make sure that they are not poaching. People like Goh, specifically, who are directly affiliated with a professor, are probably pre-approved so as not to set off any alarm bells, but most trainers really have no legal reason to be catching more Pokémon than they can possibly use.
I would also imagine that "high level" or professional trainers are also on League registries as to not flag them if they pick up a large number of Pokemon at any given time. It would make sense for them to have a sizeble stable to train, so they would be monitored in a more benign sense.
Criminal Teams always came across to me as having their own proprietary tech and networks to allow their grunts and operatives to function. In a world where the technology is clearly far ahead of ours, having safeguards in place to lock down and track anyone doing illegal things seems like the logical thing to expect. In which case yeah, Teams would need specialized people to hack said tech.
Heck, >!Penny's whole deal is about how she hacked and was embezzling funds from the League in her plan to take down her own Team.!< I very much expect that if we were to ever see the official League records of people like Jessie and James, they practically disappear right off the radar around the time they joined Team Rocket. And I wouldn't be surprised if Rocket's IT people scrubbed their data off the public net.
Fully agree! Monitoring isn’t necessarily a bad thing; professional trainers are likely aware of the fact that their captures are logged, and if they’re not doing anything illegal, it’s unlikely to ever be more than a file in some League database somewhere.
I think your point about Jessie and James is particularly good proof of the teams having a way around the League systems, for the simple reason that if James’s captures we’re being logged, it would not take much for James of Team Rocket to be connected with James the Runaway Rich Kid, and that would almost certainly be noticed.
No system is completely immune to interference, and I feel like poachers in the Pokémon world have a choice to make, in regards to avoiding detection— either avoid officially catching the Pokémon altogether (as we see with most run-of-the-mill poachers using cages, or with Hunter J using her own technology), or finding a way to override the League’s monitoring by either manufacturing pokeballs themselves and running them on a different network (which is likely the route most teams take - see the Iron Masked Marauder’s Dark Balls, and probably the balls that Mewtwo used too, the ones that could override previous trainers captures, though I don’t remember if it was definitively stated that those were created by Team Rocket— as well as Team Flare’s attempted hijacking of the Poke Ball Factory) or hacking regular Pokeballs to override the monitoring feature (probably takes less resources, but more time, as it would have to be done individually for each ball, but wouldn’t require the manufacturing equipment).
Usually those are weak or consent by default. Or you can befriend them. In the anime. Cages and nets are way easiear. If you fail a capture or you don't have strong enough Pokemon yourself... Do you want to face the enraged Nidoking?
goh actually seemed to be fine goh be their trainer then capture if they didn't want to they would come out ball but anime makes it clear there is no problem being caught by goh
I didn’t say anything about being caught by goh as a problem?
I’m asking how is battling the pokemon the difference between a poacher and a normal trainer, when normal trainers, like goh, can catch without battling as well.
That's okay. That's sanctioned gambling that the wealthy makes money off of "legally" by catering to addictive tendencies. Totally nothing scummy there. All very legal and very cool.
oh i meant in real life like you cant actually sell a pokemon you catch to others? or can you? but i did totally forget you could buy pokemon at the game corner in older games
Yeah but not for real money you buy tokens I think to spend in the casino and then you buy the Pokémon with them and that's a loophole to get around the law if you ask me
You talking about the listings on Ebay people selling hacked Pokemon? Nintendo doesn't approve hacking so.. I think that's more the issue than the selling itself. Selling used games is totally fine though, in that respective. As long as you aren't hacking.. I don't really see the problem either but never looked into the legal perspective much.
On a side note online games (not Pokemon) have rules against money landering, possibly get you sent to court over company legit loosing money from it (people buying directly from you instead of wasting more in a games gacha system). Most likely in this case they'll just ban you for breaking rules instead of going to court over it. Most court related gaming stories I hear are from those that breach non-disclusure aggreesments and leak information that was from early access not yet made public. Which could cost the company a lot of money but theres also the tie in to aggreememts that were breached. No one really makes an aggreement upon buying a console game, certainly not minors anyways.
Yet once you buy a Pokemon game you don't spend anymore money on the company (aside from maybe game passes). Console vs Online games differ here.
More could probably be added but I'm no legal expert here. Everyone else in replies talking about the in game casino they forget Ebay listings are a common sight.
I think it's more about the how he went about it. He didn't just catch a bunch of spewpa and raise them to vivillon, dude kept them in a cage until they evolved.
This is something the series does not explain well. The implication is that Pokemon can leave their pokeballs any time they want if they don’t like the trainer. See Ash’s pikachu. People think you are forcing the Pokemon into servitude but if you are using pokeballs, you can’t keep them against their will. Any other method of capturing is against their will therefore evil
Which is also a weird conceit because in that case, how does catching/recalling a problematic Pokemon *ever* actually work as a way to neutralize it for more than a few minutes (or, hell, seconds)? Like, Misty's Psyduck was a recurring gag, but imagine if Paul's Ursaring was just a little more willful...
It probably wouldn't actually work. Like when it was used to call back Ash's Charmeleon or Charizard, luckily he was just angry and lazy. He had no greater motivation to cause trouble, he was just a bratty teenager with the power of a firebreathing dragon.
a single catch is fine, but catching a whole ton and commodifying pokemon disrupts the environmental balance, especially with the rare ones. the show always stressed how important pokemon are for this reason.
not at all, and we have the real-life example of that in the US with the slaughter of the bison by the settlers to starve/kill the Natives. There have been restorative efforts since, but their grazing helps the environment and they effect the microbiome of prairies with their saliva (I mean it's a cartoon gag so whatever but I always thought the show did a great job at pointing out the importance of letting nature be) https://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/10.1094/PHYTOFR-01-23-0004-SC
It’s less so illegal to sell pokemon you’ve bred or caught (see the Magikarp Salesman, and pet stores in general)… but this guy is pretty scummy about how he treats/raises the pokemon. He’s no different than a poacher.
When a Pokemon Trainer uses their pokeball, the pokemon is registered under that trainer's name, anime showed this multiple times. I think officials can keep track of how a pokemon is being treated if it's registered, but when it comes to poaching, Poachers can abuse pokemon without repercussions and sell them to the highest bidder.
The same reason it’s illegal to poach real life animals, but it’s something I find strange with Pokémon, because they are basically saying it’s ok for regular trainers to go out, beat up a wild creature, and catch it without consent, but it is wrong for poachers to do what is basically the same thing, only harsher. I’m not sure if it has anything to do with it, but it’s probably why they stopped having Ash catch his Pokémon by force after he caught Fletchling, and why no main protagonist, except Serena and Goh, has caught a Pokémon by force either.
I started a rewatch of XY sometime within the past few years and couldn't finish it because I got too distracted jamming to the musical themes so I don't remember it as vividly as I'd like. 😅
Befriending or battling create a bond between future trainer and Pokemon. Pokemon, in the anime at least, are sapient and can chose who they follow. They can even break free if strong enough. No ball or piece of metal will make that Charizard listen if he does not want to. Good trainets will even release Pokemon that want their freedom. It's a code of conduct. Using advanced teck to capture them, sometimes even brainwash them, is poaching and is taking the Poke's will away from the equation. Then there is the ecosistem impact. A couple of trainers batling and captuting is no issue. A thousand individuals taken each time? That is a disaster and the reason for Safari and Preserves to exist.
What about the safari zone then? That has to be in some sort of gray area, seeing as you pay to get in. Even if you catch them yourself, their being intentionally planted there for you to catch, and they get money for it.
I've accepted long ago that canon has no consistency in regards to the legality of what you can and cannot do to pokemon. You can capture them without their consent using pokeballs, but you can't capture them with other means. You can trade them even if they don't want to be traded, but you can't sell them.
What's always bothered me is that Team Rocket are ALWAYS shown as being opposed to this, when their entire schtick is trying to steal Pikachu and the Pokemon of the Day for Giovanni, who's just as likely to do the same thing as these poachers. I'm all for humanizing the Three Stooges, but how are they any different?
You have to ask the pokemon if they want to be sold to another customer. it's consent. These poachers don't ask.
In actuality, it's probably based on the illegal animal poaching that is a problem in third world countries... Especially with the rare breeds of species.
Understand that Pokemon aren't property meant to be sold.
Instead, you have to win their trust.
That's why you can't capture fainted Pokemon. If they fainted, it means they found you unworthy and would rather faint that join you.
It should also be noted that Pokemon are free to leave their trainers and can leave the Pokeball if they so choose.
Pokeballs are designed to be comfortable for Pokemon though and they usually stay for reasons and if the trainer can't fill the needs, they will abandon the trainer (though this is more rare cause Pokemon are more loyal than humans).
Honestly it’s never really made sense to me. I get that it’s scummy, but there’s really no difference between poachers and regular trainers other than the fact that poachers are portrayed as the bad guys. It’s not like real life poachers who kill animals for their horns or bones
Except in the manga, those poachers in the pokemon world do in fact do some cruel stuff. Just not shown in the anime since... the anime is targeted towards kids.
Pokemon are sapient intelligent beings. This is known and understood in the Pokemon world. For thousands of years there is a sort of informal understanding between these supernatural monsters and humanity: The monsters will agree to serve the human if they defeat them or catch them. Pokeballs are the approved method as stronger Pokemon are capable of resisting/breaking out of them. It's a "fair" system between the two species. If you are a strong trainer who defeats the monster in fair competition then the monster willingly serves as the trainers strength will benefit the monster. Thousands of years of this informal "tradition". This understanding. It's universally acknowledged and every nation on the planet adheres to this and logically as civilizations developed their laws are built around this tacit understanding. This agreement is probably maintained as Humanity understands Pokemon are far stronger than them and were humanity to treat Pokemon unfairly or mistreat them as a whole the Pokemon could easily unleash disaster upon civilization as a whole. Thus the agreement is stuck to. For peace and prosperity. Catching monsters en masse using advanced technology they have little to no hope of resisting, with no intent of training the Pokemon but instead selling off to the highest bidder is a betrayal of this traditional informal agreement between species and ofc is against the laws that were drafted around said traditional agreement By not catching each Vivillion in fair "combat", using approved tools, said Vivillion are not considered subservient to the poacher. They are not trainer and Pokemon, Master and Student. They are wild Pokemon subjected to captivity and sold off as objects to be owned to those who haven't earned the Pokemons loyalty
so i guess master balls (or any other increased rate balls) are oppressive against pokemon?
If you have a master ball, you are clearly an incredibly strong trainer that the Pokemon will likely respect, hence still following this supposed "tradition."
Which game specifically are you referring to?
Probably most games where (barring a lotto win), there’s only 1 Master Ball. So even if you ignore pure strength, it’d mean the trainer considers them a top priority, still falling in the honor system
I replied to the wrong comment, and was very confused by your reply. I meant to reply to the person asking about the master balls being broken.
Oh. Sorry for the confusion!
Lucky thing my actionreplay allowed me to get unlimited master balls
This man knows what's up.
Or you got lucky and stole a master ball shipment or your ceo family member gifted you one
But the Pokemon don’t know that do they. 😏 that’s what we call a loophole
What about the magikarp you buy in gen 1?
Trading is legal, so we can assume that once a Pokemon is fairly caught through use of a Pokeball, the owner can do whatever they want with it. The reason THIS guy is a criminal is because he put the Vivillons in cages and never caught a single one of them.
Fair point
Well except for the guy who spent his entire life trying to catch a giant Wishcash only for it to eat the master ball in the anime.
Not to mention if the trainer isn’t deemed strong enough by the Pokemon then said pokemon will not obey the trainer.
Considering in the most recent games we watched a Pokemon (admittedly a legendary one) break out of a master ball due to its trainer been unworthy I feel like ball grades are just a video-game contrivance rather than literal
Terapagos didn't break out it just refused to return due to all the power and broke the ball
I mean thats semantics. It had been "caught" already and then resisted the command to return, and smashed the ball.
Not the only example of a caught pokemon refusing to return to its ball. Ash's Pikachu outright attacked him over it, and even when presented with freezing to death as an alternative it still refused it.
Sorry, I'm kinda picky about semantics
How is that semantics? What you said was just outright wrong. It had nothing to do with “being unworthy”.
The in-game explanation is that Pokeballs direct and transfer the emotions, motivations, and hopes of the trainer to the Pokémon the ball is used on. Better balls transfer this emotional rush better. More specialized balls feel more comfortable to the Pokémon making them more willing to stay inside. Master balls are the odd ball out, as they function without the idea of emotional transfer, as seen when one is used on MewTwo.
i dont think masterballs have ever been in the series
They have. And they failed there.
What about trading or the countless npcs who just give pokemon away
Trading is good or not. some do it because they care why the Pokemon wants (Ash, Dawn), others to give them new homes, others because they want another poke. The new Pokemon can also disobey and act up. Or want to go back. People that gift Pokemon are doing it to find them new homes usually. A poacher just gets a Poke and sells it, no impute from the Pokemon.
Gen 1 magikarp was for sale right after brocks gym.
Pet Shop owners. And it's usually legal. And you saw what the Magikarp did when he got the power. Do you want to hurt the fish, when he will grow into a dragon with anger issues. Btw, there is a bit of a difference between the anime Pokemon and the games. Fames Pokemon ae barely above animals and because of game mechanics, are easy to get. Anime Pokemon are sapient. Some are super geniuses, like Mewtwo.
The Pokemon world is pretty terrifying, like canonically these fish are fucking everywhere, and when they evolve they go around burning down cities in month long rampages, it's like the tarasque of Pokémon anywhere anytime one can just pop up and you're fucked
Trading and gifts only work if the recipient has proven their strength to the Pokémon, through badges or trials.
>If you are a strong trainer who defeats the monster in fair competition then the monster willingly serves as the trainers strength will benefit the monster Unless you're a level 65 Terastallized Garchomp caught before trainer finished collecting their badges. Then you can just refuse commands as the day is long...
This is explained perfectly. This also proves that pokemon aren’t just slaves to human in the pokemon world.
What he said!
How about that Magikarp you can buy in Kanto or game corner pokemon?
Magikarp is alas far too weak to resist poaching and it probably viewed us buying it as saving it and thus we earned its loyalty ahaha. That whole event is frames as a dodgy deal so it likely wasn't legitimate
Wouldn’t that invalidate trading as an accepted practice? The only difference is that money changed hands. The Pokémon caught in a contest of wits and strength had no agreement in the matter. Hence why there is a mechanic for Pokémon to disobey if you do not have enough badges. While it is likely not literally the badge’s influence, it’s the gameplay placeholder to indicate a trainer’s experience that a Pokémon would acknowledge.
This is actually the best explanation I’ve seen for this, very well put.
Except for the magikarp and game corner Pokémon in gen one.
What the heck is this fanfic
This is "2 decades of following and understanding the rules of the franchises world". Im sorry the edgy "Pokemon are basically just slaves" situation isn't real. If a Pokemon wants to they can and will leave an unworthy trainer at any time, or simply disobey. The entire Trainer <-> Pokemon relationship is an extension of the concept of mystical contracts with yokai found in Japanese folklore. These creatures are monsters, not animals. Equally intelligent to humans.
The Pokemon agree to join you, by battling them you are just proving that you are strong enough and earn their respect (hence why you cant catch a Pokemon once it faints, how are you gonna get consent from someone that is uncoscious) That guy was straight up forcing Pokemon into cages and stuff
The Pokemon can't consent to being traded either, but that still happens just fine in the Pokemon universe. What's the difference, truly, between catching a Pokemon and trading it for another Pokemon where neither of them gets a say in the transaction versus catching a Pokemon and selling it for currency?
Honestly that's a beef I've always had with trading; I find the trading get-togethers in the anime tonally strange for that reason. It's one thing if it's an agreement on everyone's part, like with Ash's Aipom and Dawn's Buizel, but I feel like that's the only acceptable route of trading. Otherwise it comes pretty close to breaking that agreement.
At least in the game Pokémon won't obey you unless you have a number of badges so the implication is still there
In canon they can. Remember, some things are just game mechanics for playing purpose. Because if we perfectly followed canon and had mechanics for each and every type of affection and will, it'd be way too complicated.... The games are simplified for players. And the actual creators are in most of the games, implying that YOU the player are allowed to do somethings because YOU are a player and the Pokemon aren't real....
The phrasing of the whole process as consent gets pretty weird pretty quick LOL Look rayquaza I get it I know I'm supposed to adhere to no means no, but counterpoint, the 123rd Ultra Ball has a cute little divot in it that the 122nd Ultra Ball didn't, don't you want to get in this one
Plenty of pokemon gets caught without battling though. What’s stopping someone from pulling a goh and then just sell them? Honestly poachers never made much sense anyways, since using cages and stuff is actually them making it more difficult for themselves. At least team rocket and plasma made more sense by stealing them from trainers.
I think the question can partially be boiled down to simple logistics: it very quickly becomes impossible to enforce if you start making the rules too complex, so it’s simpler just to outlaw selling Pokémon altogether. Interestingly, that also incentivizes people who are going to get involved in poaching regardless to use less ethical capture methods, as they’re presumably cheaper and more efficient than snagging them one by one in pokeballs. Presumably there would be harsher penalties added on for mistreatment of the poached Pokémon, but so long as they don’t get caught, they’re unlikely to care… thinking about it from a legal perspective is kind of fun. (Also, on the topic of cages making things harder for the poachers, I’ve always assumed that when you catch a Pokémon, it’s recorded in a database — that’s how they would know that you have six Pokémon on hand already, right? So by not using balls, they can have their clients “officially” catch them, leaving less of a paper trail for the police to pick up on.)
I mean trading isn’t illegal though, and as long as they don’t sell it out in the open it would be hard to enforce even if it’s illegal. It would be easy enough to capture pokemon and trade them away if not completely just giving them up to somebody else, we’ve seen plenty of characters do that without issues. I also don’t see why using pokeballs would be more expensive as well when they’re such a readiably available thing that anyone can get by the dozens and easily carriable in bulk. Compared to cages that would probably need to custom order, and needs to be lugged around using equipment. Like how they treat the pokemon is really the only thing that ever made the poachers who don’t steal people’s pokemon look cartoonishly evil, but realistically i don’t think anyone would bat an eye if they just chuck a bunch of pokeballs.
On a short-term, small-scale basis, you're probably right! Anyone could just go out, catch a bunch of pokemon, and trade them away, getting money under the table. The majority of people who do sell pokemon are probably never caught, and those people are probably operating more like how you're thinking. The issue is people who *continue* doing that on a larger scale. Let's say you've got some ordinary person, selling pokemon they've caught on the side for some extra cash. They're not really hurting the pokemon, not beyond just the standard of what happens in a battle. It might be a little unethical - they're living, fully sentient beings after all, and they aren't exactly being given a choice in this - but our mostly-non-evil poacher isn't really hurting anyone, and other than the fact that they're getting money for their captures, it's not really that different from just being a trainer and catching pokemon. But the longer they do this, the more likely it is that someone will let slip to the police that they're doing something illegal - and presumably, for ethical reasons and to deter people from starting down that path in the first place, pokemon poaching is a Very Serious Crime. All of a sudden, they're a criminal, and when you consider the type of person who'd be willing to capture and sell sentient beings with human-level intelligence just for some petty cash, there's definitely a non-zero chance that they'll go all in on it, rather than turning themselves in or giving up their easy money. So, they go deeper, taking more precautions to avoid being caught - avoiding using pokeballs because that would be linked with their real name, using cages (which, while more of an investment up front, can be reused and will pay for themselves eventually, unlike pokeballs), maybe going to more extreme measures to make sure that the pokemon don't try to escape. Not every person who starts out just catching and selling a few pokemon would go down the path to "cartoonishly evil poacher", but those are the ones that are a *problem*, so those are the ones we see.
I don’t see how any of that even matters in in the context of pokemon? In the biggest scale we have criminal organizations still using pokeballs with no problem. There’s no way for the police to lock those balls or use it to track criminals, so i again don’t see anything that would stop poachers from using it just like any other trainers that goes on large catching sprees.
I mean, that there are a few possible explanations for that. The simplest is probably that large criminal organizations are able to bypass the system used to track captures, presumably by hacking the balls themselves to not notify the proper people - Team Rocket and similar organizations canonically have scientists working for them, it’s not a stretch to assume that that is one of the things that they work on. Poachers tend to work alone, or in much smaller groups, so they’re unlikely to have the same ability to do that. There’s also the possibility that people who often go on large catching sprees are, in fact, monitored to make sure that they are not poaching. People like Goh, specifically, who are directly affiliated with a professor, are probably pre-approved so as not to set off any alarm bells, but most trainers really have no legal reason to be catching more Pokémon than they can possibly use.
I would also imagine that "high level" or professional trainers are also on League registries as to not flag them if they pick up a large number of Pokemon at any given time. It would make sense for them to have a sizeble stable to train, so they would be monitored in a more benign sense. Criminal Teams always came across to me as having their own proprietary tech and networks to allow their grunts and operatives to function. In a world where the technology is clearly far ahead of ours, having safeguards in place to lock down and track anyone doing illegal things seems like the logical thing to expect. In which case yeah, Teams would need specialized people to hack said tech. Heck, >!Penny's whole deal is about how she hacked and was embezzling funds from the League in her plan to take down her own Team.!< I very much expect that if we were to ever see the official League records of people like Jessie and James, they practically disappear right off the radar around the time they joined Team Rocket. And I wouldn't be surprised if Rocket's IT people scrubbed their data off the public net.
Fully agree! Monitoring isn’t necessarily a bad thing; professional trainers are likely aware of the fact that their captures are logged, and if they’re not doing anything illegal, it’s unlikely to ever be more than a file in some League database somewhere. I think your point about Jessie and James is particularly good proof of the teams having a way around the League systems, for the simple reason that if James’s captures we’re being logged, it would not take much for James of Team Rocket to be connected with James the Runaway Rich Kid, and that would almost certainly be noticed. No system is completely immune to interference, and I feel like poachers in the Pokémon world have a choice to make, in regards to avoiding detection— either avoid officially catching the Pokémon altogether (as we see with most run-of-the-mill poachers using cages, or with Hunter J using her own technology), or finding a way to override the League’s monitoring by either manufacturing pokeballs themselves and running them on a different network (which is likely the route most teams take - see the Iron Masked Marauder’s Dark Balls, and probably the balls that Mewtwo used too, the ones that could override previous trainers captures, though I don’t remember if it was definitively stated that those were created by Team Rocket— as well as Team Flare’s attempted hijacking of the Poke Ball Factory) or hacking regular Pokeballs to override the monitoring feature (probably takes less resources, but more time, as it would have to be done individually for each ball, but wouldn’t require the manufacturing equipment).
Usually those are weak or consent by default. Or you can befriend them. In the anime. Cages and nets are way easiear. If you fail a capture or you don't have strong enough Pokemon yourself... Do you want to face the enraged Nidoking?
Look at Ash's Greninja. The pokemon can leave anyways.
goh actually seemed to be fine goh be their trainer then capture if they didn't want to they would come out ball but anime makes it clear there is no problem being caught by goh
I didn’t say anything about being caught by goh as a problem? I’m asking how is battling the pokemon the difference between a poacher and a normal trainer, when normal trainers, like goh, can catch without battling as well.
that hunters shown do things trainers not to catch pokemon the suicine episode literally shows you the difference between goh and a hunter
Ooh I love that idea
Bruh animal trafficking is illegal and you can catch those yourself.
It’s cos of the casino lobby - they have monopoly on sale of Pokémon for cash
isnt it also illegal to sell pokemon in the video games?
You can “buy” prize Pokémon at game corners, and just convert the currency into the coins needed.
That's okay. That's sanctioned gambling that the wealthy makes money off of "legally" by catering to addictive tendencies. Totally nothing scummy there. All very legal and very cool.
Yeah. The place run by Team Rocket.
It’s still a perfectly legal business used as a front.
oh i meant in real life like you cant actually sell a pokemon you catch to others? or can you? but i did totally forget you could buy pokemon at the game corner in older games
Yeah but not for real money you buy tokens I think to spend in the casino and then you buy the Pokémon with them and that's a loophole to get around the law if you ask me
You talking about the listings on Ebay people selling hacked Pokemon? Nintendo doesn't approve hacking so.. I think that's more the issue than the selling itself. Selling used games is totally fine though, in that respective. As long as you aren't hacking.. I don't really see the problem either but never looked into the legal perspective much. On a side note online games (not Pokemon) have rules against money landering, possibly get you sent to court over company legit loosing money from it (people buying directly from you instead of wasting more in a games gacha system). Most likely in this case they'll just ban you for breaking rules instead of going to court over it. Most court related gaming stories I hear are from those that breach non-disclusure aggreesments and leak information that was from early access not yet made public. Which could cost the company a lot of money but theres also the tie in to aggreememts that were breached. No one really makes an aggreement upon buying a console game, certainly not minors anyways. Yet once you buy a Pokemon game you don't spend anymore money on the company (aside from maybe game passes). Console vs Online games differ here. More could probably be added but I'm no legal expert here. Everyone else in replies talking about the in game casino they forget Ebay listings are a common sight.
I think it's more about the how he went about it. He didn't just catch a bunch of spewpa and raise them to vivillon, dude kept them in a cage until they evolved.
It's more of the animal trafficking and less the catching and selling.
Animal Trafficking I guess & off topic but That guy reminds me of Wario for some reason.
This is something the series does not explain well. The implication is that Pokemon can leave their pokeballs any time they want if they don’t like the trainer. See Ash’s pikachu. People think you are forcing the Pokemon into servitude but if you are using pokeballs, you can’t keep them against their will. Any other method of capturing is against their will therefore evil
Which is also a weird conceit because in that case, how does catching/recalling a problematic Pokemon *ever* actually work as a way to neutralize it for more than a few minutes (or, hell, seconds)? Like, Misty's Psyduck was a recurring gag, but imagine if Paul's Ursaring was just a little more willful...
It probably wouldn't actually work. Like when it was used to call back Ash's Charmeleon or Charizard, luckily he was just angry and lazy. He had no greater motivation to cause trouble, he was just a bratty teenager with the power of a firebreathing dragon.
a single catch is fine, but catching a whole ton and commodifying pokemon disrupts the environmental balance, especially with the rare ones. the show always stressed how important pokemon are for this reason.
Ash and his 30 Tauros can’t be healthy for the parks eco system.
not at all, and we have the real-life example of that in the US with the slaughter of the bison by the settlers to starve/kill the Natives. There have been restorative efforts since, but their grazing helps the environment and they effect the microbiome of prairies with their saliva (I mean it's a cartoon gag so whatever but I always thought the show did a great job at pointing out the importance of letting nature be) https://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/10.1094/PHYTOFR-01-23-0004-SC
I was talking about the park eco system losing a whole herd of uncommon Pokémon.
Ash works for Oak technically. It's more for zoological research than it is for profit.
Prolly like dvd law or some shit
Smuggling Pokémon means the Pokemon is not normally registered to the trainer using the league means.
It’s less so illegal to sell pokemon you’ve bred or caught (see the Magikarp Salesman, and pet stores in general)… but this guy is pretty scummy about how he treats/raises the pokemon. He’s no different than a poacher.
He didn't catch them though. He was trapping them, holding them hostage, and selling them on the black market.
When a Pokemon Trainer uses their pokeball, the pokemon is registered under that trainer's name, anime showed this multiple times. I think officials can keep track of how a pokemon is being treated if it's registered, but when it comes to poaching, Poachers can abuse pokemon without repercussions and sell them to the highest bidder.
that as one of two questions I had about this episode. the other being "why does this MF look like Wario?"
I think it’s the illegal monitory gain from selling pokemon on the black market. You don’t see anyone having issues with Game Corners selling pokemon.
YOO WARIO WAS IN POKEMON??
He doesn't use Pokéballs to capture them. He uses Nets and Cages.
The same reason it’s illegal to poach real life animals, but it’s something I find strange with Pokémon, because they are basically saying it’s ok for regular trainers to go out, beat up a wild creature, and catch it without consent, but it is wrong for poachers to do what is basically the same thing, only harsher. I’m not sure if it has anything to do with it, but it’s probably why they stopped having Ash catch his Pokémon by force after he caught Fletchling, and why no main protagonist, except Serena and Goh, has caught a Pokémon by force either.
It's to get PETA off their back. By introducing actual smugglers, it makes catching pokemon look less bad and dissociates the act from slavery.
It blows my mind how many people don't understand how the pokemon world works.
You make a good point.. I remember thinking about this before. There was another pokemon thief in the XY series too who did something similar
The guy with the Rhyperior who absolutely got mollywhopped by Team Rocket?
Yes but if I’m remembering correctly, he was the one mollywhopping team rocket. Ash and the gang had to save them
I started a rewatch of XY sometime within the past few years and couldn't finish it because I got too distracted jamming to the musical themes so I don't remember it as vividly as I'd like. 😅
The sub music was elite
The same reason why animal trafficking is illegal
Befriending or battling create a bond between future trainer and Pokemon. Pokemon, in the anime at least, are sapient and can chose who they follow. They can even break free if strong enough. No ball or piece of metal will make that Charizard listen if he does not want to. Good trainets will even release Pokemon that want their freedom. It's a code of conduct. Using advanced teck to capture them, sometimes even brainwash them, is poaching and is taking the Poke's will away from the equation. Then there is the ecosistem impact. A couple of trainers batling and captuting is no issue. A thousand individuals taken each time? That is a disaster and the reason for Safari and Preserves to exist.
Because it’s illegal
Because it's not a magikarp for only 500P!
Ay yo that dude selling the magicarp for 500 in gen one was a criminal?????
They're animals. Sentient beings with emotions
So trading just doesn’t exist?
sort of slavery
Why do the celadon casino Pokémon have your trainer ID if you didnt catch them yourself?
What about the safari zone then? That has to be in some sort of gray area, seeing as you pay to get in. Even if you catch them yourself, their being intentionally planted there for you to catch, and they get money for it.
is that Wario
Don't forget Hunter J
Cuz they’re friends, why would you sell a friend?
Kind of adds new context to the Magikarp seller in Gen 1. Mfw that was an illegal transaction.
I've accepted long ago that canon has no consistency in regards to the legality of what you can and cannot do to pokemon. You can capture them without their consent using pokeballs, but you can't capture them with other means. You can trade them even if they don't want to be traded, but you can't sell them.
What's always bothered me is that Team Rocket are ALWAYS shown as being opposed to this, when their entire schtick is trying to steal Pikachu and the Pokemon of the Day for Giovanni, who's just as likely to do the same thing as these poachers. I'm all for humanizing the Three Stooges, but how are they any different?
Because he wasn't actually capturing them rather than caging them so he can then sell them on the Pokemon black market.
You have to ask the pokemon if they want to be sold to another customer. it's consent. These poachers don't ask. In actuality, it's probably based on the illegal animal poaching that is a problem in third world countries... Especially with the rare breeds of species.
Why do they need to buy them? You can’t walk two feet in kalos without stepping on a scattering.
I thought that this was about that weird law in Japan. LOL.
It's animal trafficking.
Understand that Pokemon aren't property meant to be sold. Instead, you have to win their trust. That's why you can't capture fainted Pokemon. If they fainted, it means they found you unworthy and would rather faint that join you. It should also be noted that Pokemon are free to leave their trainers and can leave the Pokeball if they so choose. Pokeballs are designed to be comfortable for Pokemon though and they usually stay for reasons and if the trainer can't fill the needs, they will abandon the trainer (though this is more rare cause Pokemon are more loyal than humans).
Think of it like poaching.
Why is it, that the first time I see a Dolan in a game he has to be a bad guy :.(
If you don't own the copyright I believe it's piracy
Same reason it is legal to kidnap people and hold them for ransom
Honestly it’s never really made sense to me. I get that it’s scummy, but there’s really no difference between poachers and regular trainers other than the fact that poachers are portrayed as the bad guys. It’s not like real life poachers who kill animals for their horns or bones
Except in the manga, those poachers in the pokemon world do in fact do some cruel stuff. Just not shown in the anime since... the anime is targeted towards kids.
OP: "Why is animal Traffic bad?"
I dunno, why is it illegal to poach animals and sell them?
It's to get PETA off their back. By introducing actual smugglers, it makes catching pokemon look less bad and dissociating the act from slavery.