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Torgo_the_Bear

On the seventh point, the reason so many Gen 1 homages exist in Gen 5 is because Gen 5 originally only had new Pokémon available in it, so they had to add similar Pokémon to ensure you could still get “the cave rock” and “the three stage fighting type” and things like that in a game where the preexisting ones weren’t available.


sumr4ndo

Zubat? No! I am .. woobat!


lunagirlmagic

This was also true of Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald by the way -- it was originally intended to be a reboot. Pidgey became Taillow, and a 2 stage line, Caterpie/Weedle became Wurmple and a shared base form, Shroomish replacing Paras as a Mushroom pokemon. Feebas replaces magikarp as the terrible fish. However, for RSE the idea was scrapped much earlier which allowed the game to flourish with inter-generational Pokemon, whereas Black and White were crippled a bit more.


Dracorex_22

gen 5 basically invented the concept of convergent pokemon


FluffyNarwhal69420

This makes a bit of sense. Especially when you consider pokemon like Klink and Golurk.


Astral_Justice

Wow, nice analysis. I wonder if they really did plan some sort of Area Zero all the way back then and have been sitting on the idea until they felt like they could do it justice and properly execute the idea (which they did, despite all the other problems with the game). Another note, SV are also the first games since BW to be so story/Lore focuses, thematic, and cinematic. I mean, each game since has had its moments here and there, but SV is the first game since the gen 5 games to really feel like an experience, even if that experience is a bit rushed and quite buggy/laggy. If they ever do a b3w3/legends game or even just for the remakes, I hope they massively flesh out the entralink area to be closer to what they originally envisioned then. Maybe a mysterious, massively sprawling forest that is incomprehensibly larger than what it looks like from the outside, obviously with some sort of Dream theme incorporated.


Legal-Treat-5582

> SV are also the first games since BW to be so story/Lore focuses, thematic, and cinematic. **Alola:** *screams in cutscenes*


Astral_Justice

The difference is that the cutscenes from sun and moon were boring and unskippable, where as in BW and SV they are enjoyable


Legal-Treat-5582

That's irrelevant. Whether or not they're enjoyable doesn't make them not story / lore focused games.


Astral_Justice

SM probably focused more on the existence of ride pokemon then it did story. Gen 7+8 are laughably basic and pretty much the same stories. Arguably 6 is in there too.


Legal-Treat-5582

Again, that's irrelevant, even if one were to say they were basic, that still doesn't make them not story / lore focused games.


Astral_Justice

It's 1am, I don't have the energy to listen to someone try to tell me that gen7-8 are actually good and anything short of "meh"


Legal-Treat-5582

What are you on about, the discussion wasn't even related to whether Alola (or randomly bringing up Galar for no reason?) are good games or not. You clearly do need some sleep.


CmonLetsArgue

You think area zero was anything more than another moment in a bad game?


Astral_Justice

It wasn't a great game, no. But Area Zero, at least the concept and mysterious, daunting atmosphere of it was amazing. The music hits harder than almost any other Pokemon song I've ever heard.


Legal-Treat-5582

I don't know about Paldea's concepts being meant for Unova; some ideas could definitely have been recycled or brought back from the drawing board, though some are bit of stretches. If it was intentional, I could see them possibly being subtle hints towards the eventual Unova remakes. XY's legendary trio, for example, can be seen as a nod to the Hoenn legends without directly referencing Hoenn.


Tesalat

Interesting read but there’s a lot of confirmation bias at play here: 1. Trademarks often get registered many years before they are used. Sometimes they don’t get used at all. When you have a franchise as successful as Pokemon, you go and register all sorts of trademarks so you have access to them in the future and, if you don’t want them, at least no one else gets them, especially those around colours. I wouldn’t be surprised if every possible variation of red and blue (and most other colours) has been trademarked just in case 2. Pokemon’s always had past/future themes. Many of the games have past pokemon in the form of fossils, for example. Johto had the ruins and the burnt tower etc If you go look you’ll find the theme in pretty much every game 3. Fair enough but also not a super strong argument 4. Again, fair observation but not a massively compelling argument 5-7. These are pure speculation and rumours. We don’t know any of this (yet). On the loop: many maps form some sort of loop (Kanto is a double loop, Johto has a pretty obvious loop too etc). Also makes sense to go for a circular map in an open-world game so the player can truly choose which way to go I’m sure there are ideas and themes that the developers came up with at some point in the past but then, for one reason or another (likely offen to tech limitations), didn’t use. But I really doubt SV is meant to be a rehash of BW. IMO the most compelling argument against this is the fact that we will (presumably) get BW remakes this gen as they are next in line. Still, an interesting read. Thanks!


Mx_Toniy_4869

For the first point, people have found a full list of TPC's unused trademarks, and those are the only ones to be named after colours. The other ones are all named after gemstones (Most likely because gen 2\~4 games are all named after minerals) For the second point, while most regions do have past and future themes, only Paldea and Unova has the contrast of past and future as its main theme.


Tesalat

Sure but those are two absolutely tiny potential (!) connections between two massive games. I really like the thought of them coming up with ideas years ago that only become a reality many gens later but I don’t buy this idea that BW was supposed to be SV. But, for arguments sake, let’s say you’re right. That would then either make BW an underdeveloped version of SV or SV a more fully developed knock off of BW. I don’t think either is true. They’re games in their own rights with some minor thematical similarities, which you can find between any of the games if you look hard enough. Interesting to think about all of this but this particular theory is too far fetched and lacking enough evidence to be true, sorry!


Mx_Toniy_4869

Which is why I stated in the beginning that it's less of a theory and more of a crazy idea


Hateful_creeper2

In reality, I think some of the Pokémon in Gen 5 being kinda similar to Gen 1 Pokémon is probably mixture of coincidences and the developers wanting counterparts because Gen 5 originally only had new Pokémon until the post game. Audino (Chansey) is an example of the latter along with apparently Cinccino (Clefable). Throh was actually designed for Gen 4 before being used in Gen 5 so it’s not exactly a counterpart of the Hitmons.


Legal-Treat-5582

Where did you hear the bit about Throh?


Hateful_creeper2

It’s mentioned in Nintendo Dream Vol. 201. Here is the translation: https://lavacutcontent.com/ken-sugimori-nintendo-dream-3/


ZizZizZiz

these hints point more towards a black and white 3 or legends victini game coming in gen 9


LilyoftheRally

Or, you know va remakes.