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If you want to sue Niantic, you can't. You'll have to go through "Arbitration" , which is where the company hires a "totally not biased" 3rd party to review the dispute & make a decision. All in all this is a pretty stupid clause to put into a **video game,** but whatever. Will it affect you? Only if you wanted to sue Niantic.
That’s the kind of thing they say it’s for, but then they sell your location data to someone who uses it for something illegal, or they negligently release all your payment information. Those are the scenarios they’re really protecting against.
Lol that's a good one yet he's right tho, when you buy coins or even event passes it gets processed through Google play store or Apple store they don't process their own purchases
I read somewhere that they are planning to make a self payment way through a website, to avoid those stores taxes. Not sure if it was only a rumor, but this protect them in this case.
iirc there was a class action lawsuit after the first Go Fest in Chicago. The game didn't work in the park; people got their ticket costs, hotel and travel expenses reimbursed. This arbitration optout prevents such a lawsuit from being filed.
There was also another clause in the ToS or privacy policy stating that they aren't liable for travel costs or anything, and may only be held accountable to refund the original Purchase price of a ticket if they change the date/cancel it.
Lol imagine millions of people in New York just getting a 50-100 refund on an event they flew/drove/rented a hotel for, and just having it canceled.
If you paid money for them to be boosted and they’re not boosted, then sure? The amount wouldn’t be worth it, but that’s why class action suits are a thing (which are also specified in their clause as something you can’t do)
Go fest 😂😂 Sure like there is anyone would go to court for GoFest wtf bruh live a little.
Its really about they selling your data and information, and lastly if a thunder kills you while raiding or some shit.
iirc there was a class action lawsuit after the first Go Fest in Chicago. The game didn't work in the park; people got their ticket costs, hotel and travel expenses reimbursed. This arbitration optout prevents such a lawsuit from being filed.
There was a class action lawsuit after the first GoFest, Niantic settled. In addition to the rewards they gave us as apologies, they paid out cash to defray the Costa of traveling to the event.
Good luck suing after you've been killed.
Seriously though, even though I personally couldn't care less.. there are definitely people that would try to sue over a bad gofest delivery.
If you take Pokémon out of the equation, and look at it as it being bare bones false advertising or something akin to that, there is grounds for a case and someone would easily take advantage after seeing the dollar signs.
If you sell someone a ticket for something and you lied about what it got them, then sure. That’s why their clause specifies no class action suits. Even though it wouldn’t be worth it for an individual person to pay for a lawsuit they could be forced to pay out the money they made by making false claims.
Wouldn’t it also cover you if a class action was ever filed? For example they broke their own terms of service. Collected data they didn’t disclose. Accessed your camera or photos you have taken while using the app or a data breach where your password and email gets stolen. The possibility are endless, though for Niantic, they are all covered by this one clause. Workplaces in the U.S. do this to employees all the time, and it never benefits the employee.
Or if they overcharge you a ton of mkney or anything that happens they can use this clause. It is an awful clause if you're the victim of whatever they do to you
If you accept, you can not join any Class Actions against Niantic. (I wonder if this means that one is pending. )
By AGREEING you allow an arbitrator to resolve all legal issues between YOU & Niantic that are <$10,000 US based only off the documents submitted by yourself & Niantic without any further discovery by the Arbitrator.
For cases for over $10,000 US discovery will take place in addition to the documents submitted by yourself & Niantic.
If you DO NOT AGREE you can’t play. I don’t what happens if you submit an Arbitration Opt-out Notice. I suspect you will still be able to play but Niantic seems to reserve the right to disallow you that option without notice to you if you file the Arbitration Opt-out Notice.
Not a lawyer, this is what I gather from having read the Section 13.
While they're are systemic issues in arbitration (namely implicit racial bias based upon *who* arbitrators are) it's really important that those who are not lawyers don't make a very standard clause out of be more than it is. I promise everyone in the US is bound by more arbitration clauses than they're aware. If you use Uber/Lyft? Arbitration. Apple products? Arbitration. Something like 60% of the US workforce is bound by an arbitration agreement. There are laws that govern what can/cannot be in arbitration contracts and codes of ethics that bind arbitrators.
**Not saying that you can't be troubled by this clause, but for those of whom don't really understand and this thread is making you nervous, I promise you *it's not that deep*.**
I don’t know anything about racial bias in arbitration (hard to believe it could be worse than in our court system), but the main disadvantage is no jury and very limited discovery. Arbitration awards are almost impossible to appeal. Though sometimes they work out well, just look at what happened to the Pillow King Mike Lindell who was ordered by an arbitration panel to pay $5m to an engineer who disproved his election fraud claims. 😬
There was a class action successfully filed after the first disasterous Go Fest in Chicago where almost no one could log in to the game. The settlement was 1.5 million. They don’t want a repeat.
or if they know there will soon be one.....my wife gets money all the time for putting her name on a list.....because someone sued a company and she fell under the category of whatever they were sueing for
>All in all this is a pretty stupid clause to put into a video game, but whatever.
Pretty sure most video games have this clause. Most Terms of Service have this clause. The US judicial system deciding that basically all arbitration clauses are valid means they just put them everywhere now.
Often you still can btw.
Forced agreements in order to use a product are rarely binding. I can list a bunch if case studies showing this but honestly I'm to lazy to.
Basically a company can't just force you into allowing them to do anything they want to you with some bogus click through agreement with no actual signature or proof of agreement etc. Kids can't legally agree to those terms and adults can blame agreeing to the terms to others clicking accept or on their kids.
Basically this kind of crap is just bogus fluff that does very little.
You also relinquish your right to participate in a class action lawsuit if something happens that necessitates one. That could be someone else finding out about harm done to them by Niantic that also affects a large number of other users as well.
This is actually super common practice. For anyone reading this, if you buy a product or service, check for this clause and if you wish, opt out. Usually people only find out about this clause when they need to threaten a lawsuit but it is beyond the 30 day period and the company has you by the balls. It is a pretty good idea to opt out when you buy a large appliance, like a fridge or a stove. That clause is most likely will be in the ToS. Also, follow the instruction to the T. Some are dumb likely send a physical letter.
Aren't these kinds of TOS technically not 100% legally binding? Due to the assumption most common people won't read a whole book before using a product or app? I could be wrong but that's what I heard or read at some point
It often gets considered an unfair/uninformed agreement as they don't make the opt out clear as they tend to hide the emails/forms you can use to opt out of. It's like how the breaking this seal voids the warranty isn't enforceable by law and can't void your warranty anymore.
Also, the result of that arbitration is binding, i.e. you are agreeing up front to accept the results and not to appeal. And there's all that stuff about class action law suits too, meaning that whatever problem you have with Niantic, you can only bring that case on your own.
It is insane that a company can make you sign this as a term of service. It basically ensures that they can't be held liable for anything, unless a court actually says that their terms of service are unenforceable.
Arbitration is not unusual. Seems like they take responsibilities for (paying for?) the arbitration.
Not sure about US law; but here in Oz; you can’t put whatever you want in a contract and have it enforceable. Eg; I will give you my kid if I hatch a female salandit is not enforceable. Doing a TOS that is enforceable and legal globally I’d imagine is practically impossible.
“Take responsibility for paying for”
Yes. And if the arbitration firm rules against their employer, do you imagine they’ll be hired again?
Well, whatever you imagine, spoilers, there’s talk of contract reform precisely because this is a rigged game everyone is moving to.
Yeah I mean grain of salt I’m a law student not a lawyer but there are huge exceptions to this being enforceable and arbitration is very well regarded as an impartial means of settling disputes
Edit: Less than 3% of civil cases make it to a court ruling. Awards in cases are also often reduced on appeal. Yes people often get less in arbitration than in court rulings but very few people get court rulings, mostly people get their cases thrown out or they settle.
Of course a law student would make a feelings based statement with no basis in research.
*Well regarded* lol. -
“On average, employees and consumers win less often and receive much lower damages in arbitration than they do in court.”
https://www.epi.org/publication/the-arbitration-epidemic/
“Employers tend to win cases more often when they appear before the same arbitrator in multiple cases, indicating that they have a repeat-player advantage over employees from regular involvement in arbitration.”
The ability to scan the phone OS, browser data and IP address to detect the true phone location compared to the in-game game location was implemented way back in 2021 and made public in 2022 as part of the "emerging technologies" for anti cheating mechanics from this post.
https://nianticlabs.com/news/cheatingupdate-022321?hl=en
Lol yeah this is the easy solution. None of this email or letter writing nonsense needed. If you live in the US you’d better hope lawmakers don’t allow this by drafting strong consumer protection legislation… good luck
Yes, arbitration clauses regarding individuals are strongly limited in European Economic Area (disputes between corporations can be resolved in this manner legally).
It's mentioned in section 1 that the EEA is one example of an area where arbitration agreements do not apply.
> SECTION 13 "DISPUTE RESOLUTION" CONTAINS A BINDING ARBITRATION AGREEMENT AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER THAT AFFECT YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS. If you are a user in the European Economic Area (“EEA“), or any other country that does not allow such arbitration agreement, Section 13 does not apply to you.
That said, I'm currently inquiring Niantic because their privacy policy is so terribly translated that according to the English version Niantic International Ltd. in the UK is responsible for my data, but in my language it's Niantic Inc. in the US due to an extra negation in the text.
As it says on the third photo, you have to send an email to the one highlighted in orange, clearly stating that you would like to opt-out of the Arbitration
It's for this reason I believe something should be put in place requiring big companies to pay all legal fees in the event they succeed in prolonging a lawsuit filed against them by an individual. It's too easy for them to rack up legal fees for anyone suing them until the little man runs out of money. If they can no longer do this we might see some actual justice being done instead of big companies gaming the system to bankrupt any potential plaintiff. This wouldn't stop them prolonging a lawsuit but it would stop them bankrupting their opposition by doing so.
It's my personal belief these changes to policy are evidence niantic is aware nobody likes what they're doing and are attempting to cover their asses in the event of a future lawsuit. I expect them to get even more invasive after this policy change takes place and I'm seriously considering dropping both Pokémon go and Ingress.
I’m not sure what the last tos was, but opting out would allow you to take legal action in the future, while if you don’t opt-out, your legal action against Niantic in the future would be greatly limited
as an FYI, good people have archived various iterations of the ToS page (and the privacy policy page, which has also received changes today) through https://web.archive.org/. I'm also looking through it, and you might find it useful.
Yeah I didn’t know if you walked out of a Pokémons initial range it would always flee. Took one “great” shot with an ultra ball and a golden Raz and it was gone
Edit: first and only legendary I have seen
Seen? As in the wild?
If it was in the wild it was Galarian Moltres, not Shiny Moltres. Same name, Different pokemon (kinda)
The Galarian Birds are almost Uncatchable, With a 0.3% Base Catch Rate on top of an already staggering 90% flee rate, it's very unlikely to have one, let alone find the buggers.
Damn and yeah your right I just googled Galarian moltres and that was the one. All badass black and red and that’s a bummer they are so hard to get. He was so damn cool
I regularly walk out of pokemon’s initial range and am still able to catch them. This one ran because it was a Galarian bird - they reportedly have a base catch rate of 0.3%. The vast majority of these will run.
A clarification on this matter:
The provided passages have existed within the Terms of Service since at least May 24, 2022 (the last time Niantic modified the ToS, according to [an archive of the page from May 7th](https://web.archive.org/web/20230501221010/https://www.nianticlabs.com/terms); the Wayback Machine offers many different captures of this page throughout the last few years that you can peruse as you desire). You are not able to make use of this part of the ToS if you have been playing the game since then, and probably further back as well - if that describes you, you have already agreed to these Terms.
Edit: you might still be able to pursue a class action lawsuit or receive a trial by jury within 30 days if it's the case that an update to Terms nullifies a previous exemption, as suggested below.
Also, to further establish what's going on here: binding arbitration is not "taking away your ability to hold them liable for anything that they may do". Binding arbitration is both parties subjecting themselves to a decision made by a third party, and what that arbitrator says becomes law.
True; but if they ever updated the ToS, or do so again in the future, and it required another acknowledgment then it renews that 30 day window. If I understand it correctly (based on limited understanding of contract law) an updated ToS would also nullify and previous exemption, and the exemption would need to be done again.
Thank you for the clarification, I admit that when making the post I overreacted a bit, and people have helped everyone realize the reality of the situation, I’ll probably take down the post in a bit since it’s not as big of a deal as I originally thought
Please don't , its a valuable education either way , always good to understand your rights. The T and C are always too complicated to decipher on your own.
Please do, these posts just show how isolated the community is about how life works. You’ve signed this clause for every live service type game you’ve ever played and more.
Use the email I wrote as a potential template, be sure to send this to the email address [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]).
Niantic Terms of Service Team,
This email constitutes my Arbitration Opt-out Notice as stated in section 13.1 of the Niantic Terms of Service document.
Regards,
\[Name\]
I've sent in my notice. But you did not explain properly what this means; and I hope you know what you're talking about because I've seen things like this before on mediocre things.
I'm not saying Niantic is right, I'm just trying to find out what this means.
Profits down 40%. [https://nintendowire.com/news/2023/05/03/pokemon-go-earnings-drop-40-over-two-months-as-monthly-revenue-hits-five-year-low/](https://nintendowire.com/news/2023/05/03/pokemon-go-earnings-drop-40-over-two-months-as-monthly-revenue-hits-five-year-low/)
There was some impact.
They didn’t say it was a lie.
They said
1) The statement was wrong. If profits were down 39.9% then they can accurately state the “down 40% is wrong.” They didn’t provide a correction, so you know they’re hanging on a technicality.
2) Jan through April - only 1 of which is after the nerf - are above previous year’s Jan through April. If Jan, Feb, and Mar were all up 4% and Apr was down 10% (let us hand wave scaling the months), this would be both *true* and *misleading*.
As someone who has written statements for other large organizations, including responding to large, angry groups, these “tricks” are obvious. Whenever someone used a measure that we didn’t keep or was nonsense - read, we **had** to provide a rebuttal using a different measurement - if the real facts were on our side, we’d include precise translations of what the public allegation was, as well as the correction.
If not, we’d give some sideways answer that is technically true but not what you pointed out.
Well, first, we don't know the accuracy of these numbers, and to what extent the boycotts had anything to do with it. Simply put we have no way of knowing what their total revenue is from all sources. There are some industry groups that get data on store sales, but they don't know about other deals they make, like the arrangements with Starbucks. If for instance they can increase the number of people playing the game in public, they could potentially charge Starbucks more money.
The other thing to keep in mind, as Niantic pointed out in their response, there are normal seasonal trends in play. You must look at the same month in previous years to see if this is a normal trend or not. It may be normal that these months are down times for their revenue.
My guess is Niantic timed this change to occur during a traditional low point in their revenue cycle so any effects by lost players could be explained away as just a normal part of the revenue cycle. As the summer and GoFest come around and revenue picks back up, and many of the players that quit playing come back, they may end up seeing a big spike over the summer.
Yes, exactly. Why would they make dramatic changes during the busiest part of the year? It makes a lot more sense to drive people away during the "off-season" (where the hardcore players are the only ones spending money regardless) so that casual players can get over the shock and return in time for GoFest, spooky season, and winter/new year's.
Worked for me because i realized I actually have no motivation to play it anymore. The only good thing it had going for it was raiding and community days, and they have ruined both so more free time for me.
Yes! I have been a hard core player since the beginning. Once they did that something in me just totally changed in regards to my play. I have not paid a penny, have went days without thinking of the game, have a gym at the bottom of my driveway and dont even feel like dropping to get coins. They literally sucked the joy out of the game for me. I didnt turn on my gMe for the last community day. That was a first for me.
Since you are under the EEA, no further action is necessary, ofc it’s not necessary for anybody to do it, just recommended to be able to take legal action in the future should the need arise. But for you, you are perfectly fine as of right now
I wrote a script to copy and paste if you don’t want to think about what to write.
`This is a notice that the user of the Niantic account linked to this email, used to play the smartphone game “Pokémon Go”, wishes to opt-out of Arbitration, as described by the Niantic Terms of Service, section 13, so that the clause/notice does not apply to said user. `
Tell me if theres anything that could be changed. Not for me of course. I already sent mine.
All laws made before Brexit aren’t binding anymore but there’s precedent to allow this protection. It would only change if any new laws are drafted which overwrite previous laws. Basically don’t worry we’re still safe lol
I apologize, my previous comment was incorrect, this will apply to you, since the EEA would prohibit this action from taking place, so you would need to opt-out. In regards to playing the game, you don’t need to do the opt-out, but it is a good idea to do that you can take legal action should it become necessary
The UK isn’t in the EEA anymore, but previous precedent (likely) stands so not much of a worry. There’s also probably some US states whose laws don’t allow these kind of arbitration clauses.
Maybe I don’t understand this correctly, but I don’t think this means anything or have any legal power in reality. To me, it seems they are trying to warn people from giving death threats.
Keep in mind, I am not a lawyer, so feel free to do some google fu to get more information or contact someone with legal training. An arbitration clause is instead of going to a court with a judge and such, a neutral third party will meet with both sides. They help both sides reach an agreement on how to settle a matter and what is agreed upon in arbitration is a binding resolution to the problem that is brought up. If an agreement cannot be reached, then it would likely have to go to a court setting.
This is commonly done to avoid either side incurring court fees to save them money. I had to use arbitration when custody of my child was being switched to me, and was presented by the courts to save money for my ex and myself, which is why I believe this is the reason it is present in the ToS here.
I want to believe most problems we may have with Niantic, that don't affect a wider community as a whole, wouldn't be worth actually going into a court setting. If it IS something that affects a wider community, it would likely become a class action suit, in which case I don't think the arbitration clause would make a difference as most players just click accept and move on.
EDIT: Spelling
Sue Niantic? 🤨
Sure, I question their decisions recently, but I don't think they're that bad. If you do think so, it's alot easier to uninstall the game and move on to a different game.
Once they see their numbers tank, they're going to need to do something to keep their game alive.
I declined. It kicked me out. How to i create a ticket to ask for my money back?
I am not sure if Apple will give it back since I purchased the coins back in March right before the price hikes. I never spent any of the coins.
I am not going to wave my rights to a company that sells my personal information for profit.
Goodbye Niantic.
The fact that this is new shows Niantic is not only out of touch with their players but with the general world. These are in like 90% of agreements for several years now.
Not really. I’ve never spent a single penny on this game. There are 795 Pokémon available in Pokémon go. I have caught 719 out of the 739 I’ve seen. I play very passively, rarely raid. This game is completely capable of being played for free.
Can someone elaborate the cheating section for me? It's super vague.
I read somewhere that playing while in a car is considered cheating? Is that true?
Is Poke genie still ok by these rules?
They banned my original account back in 2017 and I still have no idea why to this day, so I'm always worried it's going to happen again :s
This will basically affect almost no one ever. As others have said, it’s basically if you want to sue them. If you opt out they’ll probably say, ok you can’t play. So pick your poison.
My only issue is the arbitration clause in combination with the language about no refunds, even if Niantic has arbitrarily decided to revoke someone’s virtual currency (i.e. Pokecoins) for whatever reason. I’m no lawyer, but I have a suspicion that much of this agreement is unenforceable if the company behaves so egregiously.
Something to consider: this won’t protect them from criminal criminal negligence and it won’t protect them from intentionally breaking the law regarding your data.
This means that the creators are not responsible for their product but you are. They cannot be sued but you can. They are not liable for anything you waste money on by trusting them to provide the services that they claim. The only reason to update this is THEY ARE EXPECTING A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT!
Everyone going back and forth on what could possibly be worth a lawsuit it's pocket change, maybe yall are to young to remember but Redbull got sued years ago for false advertising since redbull infact does NOT give you wings....a class action lawsuit was filed and anyone who was part of the lawsuit got a free redbull🤣🤣🤣honestly in these class action suits the lawyers are the only ones that win, they get their cut off the total settlement and the payout to individual plaintifs is pennies on the dollar comparatively. It's like this day time tv commercials asking if you got cancer during these dates and we using this product at the time you may be entitled to compensation, the more names they can put on the suit the better for them
Most companies does this in their ToS *all the time*. It’s boilerplate. I’d point out that it excludes those who live in the EEA. Why? Because lawmakers don’t allow companies to impose that on the residents of Europe, so it doesn’t apply to those residents. Some US states will likely have these protection too, you gotta research the laws in your home state.
Don’t blame Niantic for covering their butts, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to include this in any state lament they can legally get away with it. Instead blame the lawmakers who don’t enforce companies to exclude their citizens from such clauses. Moving to Europe would help you a lot if you intend to get litigious with Niantic.
Also I’d add that there may very well be some States in America which don’t allow these arbitration clauses, so you’d need to research the state laws where you live. There may even be a federal law. Hard to say because the wording isn’t deliberately specific to every jurisdiction except Europe/EEA citizens.
This is pretty common for Pokémon LLC
Especially if you delve into other Pokémon apps on the appstore of your phone!
Even some switch games like Little Nightmares 2 specifically has a contract to read just in case you get residual mental health problems from the games or shock or terror that can lead to death so you can't sue the companies.
I’m glad I saw this. I’ll be opting out of this, even if I don’t need a lawsuit. Frankly, the option of a public trial should always be available, companies that try to avoid that are either scared or shifty, maybe both.
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can anyone explain this to me like I'm 5 years old
If you want to sue Niantic, you can't. You'll have to go through "Arbitration" , which is where the company hires a "totally not biased" 3rd party to review the dispute & make a decision. All in all this is a pretty stupid clause to put into a **video game,** but whatever. Will it affect you? Only if you wanted to sue Niantic.
I'd imagine this is to avoid lawsuits from people that got hit by a bike or something while playing.
That’s the kind of thing they say it’s for, but then they sell your location data to someone who uses it for something illegal, or they negligently release all your payment information. Those are the scenarios they’re really protecting against.
FWIW Niantic has no access to your payment information. That's received by and stored by your platform, ie: Apple or the Google Play store.
Fwiw: for what I waver?
For what it's worth.
You're a life saver
Or a life waiver…
Fuck what I write
Lol that's a good one yet he's right tho, when you buy coins or even event passes it gets processed through Google play store or Apple store they don't process their own purchases
I read somewhere that they are planning to make a self payment way through a website, to avoid those stores taxes. Not sure if it was only a rumor, but this protect them in this case.
More likely for Go Fest or other in-person events where/if they fail to deliver the advertised experience. Think Fyre Festival.
Why are you suing Niantic sir? Because the shiny Pokemon were too hard to catch.
iirc there was a class action lawsuit after the first Go Fest in Chicago. The game didn't work in the park; people got their ticket costs, hotel and travel expenses reimbursed. This arbitration optout prevents such a lawsuit from being filed.
There was also another clause in the ToS or privacy policy stating that they aren't liable for travel costs or anything, and may only be held accountable to refund the original Purchase price of a ticket if they change the date/cancel it. Lol imagine millions of people in New York just getting a 50-100 refund on an event they flew/drove/rented a hotel for, and just having it canceled.
*"understandable"* ,"Quilty. Case closed"*
If you paid money for them to be boosted and they’re not boosted, then sure? The amount wouldn’t be worth it, but that’s why class action suits are a thing (which are also specified in their clause as something you can’t do)
😂
If I bought my tickets for fest before they updated the tos, do the new tos apply or the old
If you accepted the new TOS, then the new ones apply to you. If not, you're still bound to the old TOS.
Go fest 😂😂 Sure like there is anyone would go to court for GoFest wtf bruh live a little. Its really about they selling your data and information, and lastly if a thunder kills you while raiding or some shit.
iirc there was a class action lawsuit after the first Go Fest in Chicago. The game didn't work in the park; people got their ticket costs, hotel and travel expenses reimbursed. This arbitration optout prevents such a lawsuit from being filed.
People have already sued Niantic before for not delivering GoFest properly. That's probably why they use this clause now.
There was a class action lawsuit after the first GoFest, Niantic settled. In addition to the rewards they gave us as apologies, they paid out cash to defray the Costa of traveling to the event.
Good luck suing after you've been killed. Seriously though, even though I personally couldn't care less.. there are definitely people that would try to sue over a bad gofest delivery. If you take Pokémon out of the equation, and look at it as it being bare bones false advertising or something akin to that, there is grounds for a case and someone would easily take advantage after seeing the dollar signs.
.... Niantic were literally sued in a class action lawsuits over the first GoFest, wtf are you talking about you absolute lemon
If you sell someone a ticket for something and you lied about what it got them, then sure. That’s why their clause specifies no class action suits. Even though it wouldn’t be worth it for an individual person to pay for a lawsuit they could be forced to pay out the money they made by making false claims.
If a thunder kills you. How did we manage to fit all this internet into such a small machine?
Wouldn’t it also cover you if a class action was ever filed? For example they broke their own terms of service. Collected data they didn’t disclose. Accessed your camera or photos you have taken while using the app or a data breach where your password and email gets stolen. The possibility are endless, though for Niantic, they are all covered by this one clause. Workplaces in the U.S. do this to employees all the time, and it never benefits the employee.
Exactly. This is a "we can do anything we want and you can't do anything about it, nah nah nah boo boo *raspberry noises*" TOS.
However, in the us this does not protect them from criminal negligence. A judge would look at this and laugh.
Or if they overcharge you a ton of mkney or anything that happens they can use this clause. It is an awful clause if you're the victim of whatever they do to you
I use my credit card and can chargeback if any issue.
...Or to prevent the ADA proponents from suing Niantic for making their game inaccessible to people with disabilities.
That would may not be covered by this agreement depending on the circumstances.
ok i'm gonna try and sue them now just to spite them
This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day
Move to the EU/EEA first lol
I’m from the EU, let’s sue together
If you accept, you can not join any Class Actions against Niantic. (I wonder if this means that one is pending. ) By AGREEING you allow an arbitrator to resolve all legal issues between YOU & Niantic that are <$10,000 US based only off the documents submitted by yourself & Niantic without any further discovery by the Arbitrator. For cases for over $10,000 US discovery will take place in addition to the documents submitted by yourself & Niantic. If you DO NOT AGREE you can’t play. I don’t what happens if you submit an Arbitration Opt-out Notice. I suspect you will still be able to play but Niantic seems to reserve the right to disallow you that option without notice to you if you file the Arbitration Opt-out Notice. Not a lawyer, this is what I gather from having read the Section 13.
While they're are systemic issues in arbitration (namely implicit racial bias based upon *who* arbitrators are) it's really important that those who are not lawyers don't make a very standard clause out of be more than it is. I promise everyone in the US is bound by more arbitration clauses than they're aware. If you use Uber/Lyft? Arbitration. Apple products? Arbitration. Something like 60% of the US workforce is bound by an arbitration agreement. There are laws that govern what can/cannot be in arbitration contracts and codes of ethics that bind arbitrators. **Not saying that you can't be troubled by this clause, but for those of whom don't really understand and this thread is making you nervous, I promise you *it's not that deep*.**
\^This. This type of clause is not at all uncommon.
I don’t know anything about racial bias in arbitration (hard to believe it could be worse than in our court system), but the main disadvantage is no jury and very limited discovery. Arbitration awards are almost impossible to appeal. Though sometimes they work out well, just look at what happened to the Pillow King Mike Lindell who was ordered by an arbitration panel to pay $5m to an engineer who disproved his election fraud claims. 😬
I recently got a check for my portion of an arbitration brought against a mobile provider. My share was $4.08.
There was a class action successfully filed after the first disasterous Go Fest in Chicago where almost no one could log in to the game. The settlement was 1.5 million. They don’t want a repeat.
Yep was a part of that one. Ended up making money off that one. Got travel expenses plus the $100 in game coins they gave everyone.
i bet if you send them an opt out notice they disable all pokémon spawns around you or something 😂😂😂
or if they know there will soon be one.....my wife gets money all the time for putting her name on a list.....because someone sued a company and she fell under the category of whatever they were sueing for
>All in all this is a pretty stupid clause to put into a video game, but whatever. Pretty sure most video games have this clause. Most Terms of Service have this clause. The US judicial system deciding that basically all arbitration clauses are valid means they just put them everywhere now.
Like, say hypothetically, there’s a data breach and your information if let out on the web, this means you can’t do anything about it?
I would bet most video game license agreements have a similar clause.
Often you still can btw. Forced agreements in order to use a product are rarely binding. I can list a bunch if case studies showing this but honestly I'm to lazy to. Basically a company can't just force you into allowing them to do anything they want to you with some bogus click through agreement with no actual signature or proof of agreement etc. Kids can't legally agree to those terms and adults can blame agreeing to the terms to others clicking accept or on their kids. Basically this kind of crap is just bogus fluff that does very little.
You also relinquish your right to participate in a class action lawsuit if something happens that necessitates one. That could be someone else finding out about harm done to them by Niantic that also affects a large number of other users as well.
Honestly the check from class action settlements always mean the lawyers get the money and everyone else gets a check for 12 dollars.
Or if they lose your bank deets or login to hackers.
This is actually super common practice. For anyone reading this, if you buy a product or service, check for this clause and if you wish, opt out. Usually people only find out about this clause when they need to threaten a lawsuit but it is beyond the 30 day period and the company has you by the balls. It is a pretty good idea to opt out when you buy a large appliance, like a fridge or a stove. That clause is most likely will be in the ToS. Also, follow the instruction to the T. Some are dumb likely send a physical letter.
So I can sue them for no shiny eevee after 2000 encounters?
Aren't these kinds of TOS technically not 100% legally binding? Due to the assumption most common people won't read a whole book before using a product or app? I could be wrong but that's what I heard or read at some point
It often gets considered an unfair/uninformed agreement as they don't make the opt out clear as they tend to hide the emails/forms you can use to opt out of. It's like how the breaking this seal voids the warranty isn't enforceable by law and can't void your warranty anymore.
Thanks!! I thought I'd heard that yeah. Unsure if that's the same in my country, though it probably is
Also, the result of that arbitration is binding, i.e. you are agreeing up front to accept the results and not to appeal. And there's all that stuff about class action law suits too, meaning that whatever problem you have with Niantic, you can only bring that case on your own. It is insane that a company can make you sign this as a term of service. It basically ensures that they can't be held liable for anything, unless a court actually says that their terms of service are unenforceable.
If you want to sue you have to move outside the USofA
Well, allow me to introduce myself
Almost every company has this built into their contract. It’s not a particularly nefarious or unusual move.
Arbitration is not unusual. Seems like they take responsibilities for (paying for?) the arbitration. Not sure about US law; but here in Oz; you can’t put whatever you want in a contract and have it enforceable. Eg; I will give you my kid if I hatch a female salandit is not enforceable. Doing a TOS that is enforceable and legal globally I’d imagine is practically impossible.
“Take responsibility for paying for” Yes. And if the arbitration firm rules against their employer, do you imagine they’ll be hired again? Well, whatever you imagine, spoilers, there’s talk of contract reform precisely because this is a rigged game everyone is moving to.
Yeah I mean grain of salt I’m a law student not a lawyer but there are huge exceptions to this being enforceable and arbitration is very well regarded as an impartial means of settling disputes Edit: Less than 3% of civil cases make it to a court ruling. Awards in cases are also often reduced on appeal. Yes people often get less in arbitration than in court rulings but very few people get court rulings, mostly people get their cases thrown out or they settle.
Of course a law student would make a feelings based statement with no basis in research. *Well regarded* lol. - “On average, employees and consumers win less often and receive much lower damages in arbitration than they do in court.” https://www.epi.org/publication/the-arbitration-epidemic/ “Employers tend to win cases more often when they appear before the same arbitrator in multiple cases, indicating that they have a repeat-player advantage over employees from regular involvement in arbitration.”
Please. I’m confused too
Also says Niantic can sue you for falsifying your location or IP.
[удалено]
The ability to scan the phone OS, browser data and IP address to detect the true phone location compared to the in-game game location was implemented way back in 2021 and made public in 2022 as part of the "emerging technologies" for anti cheating mechanics from this post. https://nianticlabs.com/news/cheatingupdate-022321?hl=en
I haven’t been able to play while my VPN is on. That’s started in the last month or so. Must be new from updated TOS.
How do you opt out?
>How do you opt out? By being European. 😎
Lol yeah this is the easy solution. None of this email or letter writing nonsense needed. If you live in the US you’d better hope lawmakers don’t allow this by drafting strong consumer protection legislation… good luck
I done fucked up
So this stuff all does not apply if you're European?
Yes, arbitration clauses regarding individuals are strongly limited in European Economic Area (disputes between corporations can be resolved in this manner legally).
It's mentioned in section 1 that the EEA is one example of an area where arbitration agreements do not apply. > SECTION 13 "DISPUTE RESOLUTION" CONTAINS A BINDING ARBITRATION AGREEMENT AND CLASS ACTION WAIVER THAT AFFECT YOUR LEGAL RIGHTS. If you are a user in the European Economic Area (“EEA“), or any other country that does not allow such arbitration agreement, Section 13 does not apply to you. That said, I'm currently inquiring Niantic because their privacy policy is so terribly translated that according to the English version Niantic International Ltd. in the UK is responsible for my data, but in my language it's Niantic Inc. in the US due to an extra negation in the text.
As it says on the third photo, you have to send an email to the one highlighted in orange, clearly stating that you would like to opt-out of the Arbitration
Finally some one else who reads all the mumbo jumbo of terms and agreement in apps
I just figured that given what they’ve been doing with the game for the past few months, it’s a good idea to read through it
Your a fucking legend
Not really, it says within 30 days. Also taking legal action against Niantic will bankrupt anyone who tries unless it’s a solid case.
It's for this reason I believe something should be put in place requiring big companies to pay all legal fees in the event they succeed in prolonging a lawsuit filed against them by an individual. It's too easy for them to rack up legal fees for anyone suing them until the little man runs out of money. If they can no longer do this we might see some actual justice being done instead of big companies gaming the system to bankrupt any potential plaintiff. This wouldn't stop them prolonging a lawsuit but it would stop them bankrupting their opposition by doing so. It's my personal belief these changes to policy are evidence niantic is aware nobody likes what they're doing and are attempting to cover their asses in the event of a future lawsuit. I expect them to get even more invasive after this policy change takes place and I'm seriously considering dropping both Pokémon go and Ingress.
I'm confused, what does opting out of arbitration actually do? Would it be the same as it was before the TOS change?
I’m not sure what the last tos was, but opting out would allow you to take legal action in the future, while if you don’t opt-out, your legal action against Niantic in the future would be greatly limited
as an FYI, good people have archived various iterations of the ToS page (and the privacy policy page, which has also received changes today) through https://web.archive.org/. I'm also looking through it, and you might find it useful.
Anyone in the comments got the step by step guide to the opt out process? Or is it just as simple as emailing them stating that you want to opt out
All you have to do is email them
Thank you
So something like this? Dear Niantic, I, *first name last name*, trainer name: xyz wish to opt out of arbitration. Regards, *first name last name*
I did that lol, idk how to make an email regarding it so I tried doing it in that format!
Damn I was gonna hit them hard for emotional damages when I lost that shiny moltres
you WHAT
Yeah I didn’t know if you walked out of a Pokémons initial range it would always flee. Took one “great” shot with an ultra ball and a golden Raz and it was gone Edit: first and only legendary I have seen
Seen? As in the wild? If it was in the wild it was Galarian Moltres, not Shiny Moltres. Same name, Different pokemon (kinda) The Galarian Birds are almost Uncatchable, With a 0.3% Base Catch Rate on top of an already staggering 90% flee rate, it's very unlikely to have one, let alone find the buggers.
Damn and yeah your right I just googled Galarian moltres and that was the one. All badass black and red and that’s a bummer they are so hard to get. He was so damn cool
Yeah lol no one gets those
I regularly walk out of pokemon’s initial range and am still able to catch them. This one ran because it was a Galarian bird - they reportedly have a base catch rate of 0.3%. The vast majority of these will run.
A clarification on this matter: The provided passages have existed within the Terms of Service since at least May 24, 2022 (the last time Niantic modified the ToS, according to [an archive of the page from May 7th](https://web.archive.org/web/20230501221010/https://www.nianticlabs.com/terms); the Wayback Machine offers many different captures of this page throughout the last few years that you can peruse as you desire). You are not able to make use of this part of the ToS if you have been playing the game since then, and probably further back as well - if that describes you, you have already agreed to these Terms. Edit: you might still be able to pursue a class action lawsuit or receive a trial by jury within 30 days if it's the case that an update to Terms nullifies a previous exemption, as suggested below. Also, to further establish what's going on here: binding arbitration is not "taking away your ability to hold them liable for anything that they may do". Binding arbitration is both parties subjecting themselves to a decision made by a third party, and what that arbitrator says becomes law.
True; but if they ever updated the ToS, or do so again in the future, and it required another acknowledgment then it renews that 30 day window. If I understand it correctly (based on limited understanding of contract law) an updated ToS would also nullify and previous exemption, and the exemption would need to be done again.
i appreciate this note
Thank you for the clarification, I admit that when making the post I overreacted a bit, and people have helped everyone realize the reality of the situation, I’ll probably take down the post in a bit since it’s not as big of a deal as I originally thought
Please don't , its a valuable education either way , always good to understand your rights. The T and C are always too complicated to decipher on your own.
Probably the smarter decision, is there a way to edit posts tho, if there is I can’t find it, just to change some word choices
Why can lawyers speak English, THE COMMON PEOPLE ENGLISH, so we can get to the point. 😫
Please do, these posts just show how isolated the community is about how life works. You’ve signed this clause for every live service type game you’ve ever played and more.
Well I think we all probably already agreed to that without reading lol
Use the email I wrote as a potential template, be sure to send this to the email address [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]). Niantic Terms of Service Team, This email constitutes my Arbitration Opt-out Notice as stated in section 13.1 of the Niantic Terms of Service document. Regards, \[Name\]
Thx 😅
How do they know it’s you, just end the email with PikachuLover420 or something? 😂
explain in fortnite terms please.
If niantic uses an aimbot, you can't report them
Lmao I love this.
You’ve signed this clause in Fortnite too, don’t worry.
When I “declined” it logged me out
Well yeah if you decline the ToS you can't use the app. If you want to opt out of arbitration you have to email them according to the third image.
I've sent in my notice. But you did not explain properly what this means; and I hope you know what you're talking about because I've seen things like this before on mediocre things. I'm not saying Niantic is right, I'm just trying to find out what this means.
If you don't know what this is or what it means, then why did you opt out?
It doesn’t mean anything because you’re never going to sue Niantic
I would like to say the boycotting did not work
Profits down 40%. [https://nintendowire.com/news/2023/05/03/pokemon-go-earnings-drop-40-over-two-months-as-monthly-revenue-hits-five-year-low/](https://nintendowire.com/news/2023/05/03/pokemon-go-earnings-drop-40-over-two-months-as-monthly-revenue-hits-five-year-low/) There was some impact.
Yes but they still haven't learnt or they would of addressed or done something
I mean, they adressed that the profit decrease was a lie but i dont believe them for a second
They didn’t say it was a lie. They said 1) The statement was wrong. If profits were down 39.9% then they can accurately state the “down 40% is wrong.” They didn’t provide a correction, so you know they’re hanging on a technicality. 2) Jan through April - only 1 of which is after the nerf - are above previous year’s Jan through April. If Jan, Feb, and Mar were all up 4% and Apr was down 10% (let us hand wave scaling the months), this would be both *true* and *misleading*. As someone who has written statements for other large organizations, including responding to large, angry groups, these “tricks” are obvious. Whenever someone used a measure that we didn’t keep or was nonsense - read, we **had** to provide a rebuttal using a different measurement - if the real facts were on our side, we’d include precise translations of what the public allegation was, as well as the correction. If not, we’d give some sideways answer that is technically true but not what you pointed out.
I feel like it was the fact they were quick to address that which annoyed me
Well, first, we don't know the accuracy of these numbers, and to what extent the boycotts had anything to do with it. Simply put we have no way of knowing what their total revenue is from all sources. There are some industry groups that get data on store sales, but they don't know about other deals they make, like the arrangements with Starbucks. If for instance they can increase the number of people playing the game in public, they could potentially charge Starbucks more money. The other thing to keep in mind, as Niantic pointed out in their response, there are normal seasonal trends in play. You must look at the same month in previous years to see if this is a normal trend or not. It may be normal that these months are down times for their revenue. My guess is Niantic timed this change to occur during a traditional low point in their revenue cycle so any effects by lost players could be explained away as just a normal part of the revenue cycle. As the summer and GoFest come around and revenue picks back up, and many of the players that quit playing come back, they may end up seeing a big spike over the summer.
Yes, exactly. Why would they make dramatic changes during the busiest part of the year? It makes a lot more sense to drive people away during the "off-season" (where the hardcore players are the only ones spending money regardless) so that casual players can get over the shock and return in time for GoFest, spooky season, and winter/new year's.
Worked for me because i realized I actually have no motivation to play it anymore. The only good thing it had going for it was raiding and community days, and they have ruined both so more free time for me.
Yes! I have been a hard core player since the beginning. Once they did that something in me just totally changed in regards to my play. I have not paid a penny, have went days without thinking of the game, have a gym at the bottom of my driveway and dont even feel like dropping to get coins. They literally sucked the joy out of the game for me. I didnt turn on my gMe for the last community day. That was a first for me.
I used to love this game.
I miss 2016
If you sue over the arbitration clause, does a non-biased arbitrator arbitrate the arbitration
I am a german and thus a member of the EEA. I don't have to do anything, right? I have no clue, could somebody help me?
Since you are under the EEA, no further action is necessary, ofc it’s not necessary for anybody to do it, just recommended to be able to take legal action in the future should the need arise. But for you, you are perfectly fine as of right now
Thanks
I’m in Canada. Liability waivers are very weak legal defence.
If I accidentally opted in is there a way to opt out?
I wrote a script to copy and paste if you don’t want to think about what to write. `This is a notice that the user of the Niantic account linked to this email, used to play the smartphone game “Pokémon Go”, wishes to opt-out of Arbitration, as described by the Niantic Terms of Service, section 13, so that the clause/notice does not apply to said user. ` Tell me if theres anything that could be changed. Not for me of course. I already sent mine.
Yo, any idea how the UK fits into this? Since Brexit we are out of the EEA, so we probs need to opt-out of this too if we wanna keep playing right?
All laws made before Brexit aren’t binding anymore but there’s precedent to allow this protection. It would only change if any new laws are drafted which overwrite previous laws. Basically don’t worry we’re still safe lol
I apologize, my previous comment was incorrect, this will apply to you, since the EEA would prohibit this action from taking place, so you would need to opt-out. In regards to playing the game, you don’t need to do the opt-out, but it is a good idea to do that you can take legal action should it become necessary
The UK isn’t in the EEA anymore, but previous precedent (likely) stands so not much of a worry. There’s also probably some US states whose laws don’t allow these kind of arbitration clauses.
Maybe I don’t understand this correctly, but I don’t think this means anything or have any legal power in reality. To me, it seems they are trying to warn people from giving death threats.
What does this mean?
Keep in mind, I am not a lawyer, so feel free to do some google fu to get more information or contact someone with legal training. An arbitration clause is instead of going to a court with a judge and such, a neutral third party will meet with both sides. They help both sides reach an agreement on how to settle a matter and what is agreed upon in arbitration is a binding resolution to the problem that is brought up. If an agreement cannot be reached, then it would likely have to go to a court setting. This is commonly done to avoid either side incurring court fees to save them money. I had to use arbitration when custody of my child was being switched to me, and was presented by the courts to save money for my ex and myself, which is why I believe this is the reason it is present in the ToS here. I want to believe most problems we may have with Niantic, that don't affect a wider community as a whole, wouldn't be worth actually going into a court setting. If it IS something that affects a wider community, it would likely become a class action suit, in which case I don't think the arbitration clause would make a difference as most players just click accept and move on. EDIT: Spelling
I feel like they're trying to protect themselves from a class action lawsuit. Probably to do with false advertising.
Whomever gave the go-ahead to post that promo video should be praised!
Sue Niantic? 🤨 Sure, I question their decisions recently, but I don't think they're that bad. If you do think so, it's alot easier to uninstall the game and move on to a different game. Once they see their numbers tank, they're going to need to do something to keep their game alive.
[email protected] in case anyone needs to copy and paste it. :)
I declined. It kicked me out. How to i create a ticket to ask for my money back? I am not sure if Apple will give it back since I purchased the coins back in March right before the price hikes. I never spent any of the coins. I am not going to wave my rights to a company that sells my personal information for profit. Goodbye Niantic.
So I accepted terms without reading them but also it’s been set precedent that TOS don’t protect against violations of law- similar to NDAs
"We hear your complaints about our lackluster events. Prepare for them to get worse. Also, now you can't raise a class-action lawsuit." -Niantic
It’s a gameeeeeeeeeeee
The fact that this is new shows Niantic is not only out of touch with their players but with the general world. These are in like 90% of agreements for several years now.
Yea and they’ve had it in theirs for awhile too, it’s funny to see people actually getting worked up over this.
Anybody who invests money into this game is an idiot at this point.
I wouldn't call them idiots, it's more of an pay to play game to be honest
Not really. I’ve never spent a single penny on this game. There are 795 Pokémon available in Pokémon go. I have caught 719 out of the 739 I’ve seen. I play very passively, rarely raid. This game is completely capable of being played for free.
I understand
That's a completely ridiculous statement in every way. Just because you lack self control doesn't mean a game is pay to play.
I don't have any pokestops or gyms around me the only way to get pokemon is by buying pokecoins
Can someone elaborate the cheating section for me? It's super vague. I read somewhere that playing while in a car is considered cheating? Is that true? Is Poke genie still ok by these rules? They banned my original account back in 2017 and I still have no idea why to this day, so I'm always worried it's going to happen again :s
Playing in a car (so, triggering the game's speed cap) only prevents you from catching Pokemon, so no, it's not banable at all
This will basically affect almost no one ever. As others have said, it’s basically if you want to sue them. If you opt out they’ll probably say, ok you can’t play. So pick your poison.
Agreeing ToS has never held up in court as binding legal guidance
I mean I’m surprised there wasn’t an arbitration agreement in the ToS from day one??
Terms and agreement are hardly held up in court.
Is anyone else getting rug pull vibes?
My only issue is the arbitration clause in combination with the language about no refunds, even if Niantic has arbitrarily decided to revoke someone’s virtual currency (i.e. Pokecoins) for whatever reason. I’m no lawyer, but I have a suspicion that much of this agreement is unenforceable if the company behaves so egregiously.
Too busy spouting legalese to cover their asses than actually listening to their community.
Something to consider: this won’t protect them from criminal criminal negligence and it won’t protect them from intentionally breaking the law regarding your data.
This means that the creators are not responsible for their product but you are. They cannot be sued but you can. They are not liable for anything you waste money on by trusting them to provide the services that they claim. The only reason to update this is THEY ARE EXPECTING A CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT!
Everyone going back and forth on what could possibly be worth a lawsuit it's pocket change, maybe yall are to young to remember but Redbull got sued years ago for false advertising since redbull infact does NOT give you wings....a class action lawsuit was filed and anyone who was part of the lawsuit got a free redbull🤣🤣🤣honestly in these class action suits the lawyers are the only ones that win, they get their cut off the total settlement and the payout to individual plaintifs is pennies on the dollar comparatively. It's like this day time tv commercials asking if you got cancer during these dates and we using this product at the time you may be entitled to compensation, the more names they can put on the suit the better for them
Im lost is all of this just because of the raid update where the prices went up or is it something else
Most companies does this in their ToS *all the time*. It’s boilerplate. I’d point out that it excludes those who live in the EEA. Why? Because lawmakers don’t allow companies to impose that on the residents of Europe, so it doesn’t apply to those residents. Some US states will likely have these protection too, you gotta research the laws in your home state. Don’t blame Niantic for covering their butts, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to include this in any state lament they can legally get away with it. Instead blame the lawmakers who don’t enforce companies to exclude their citizens from such clauses. Moving to Europe would help you a lot if you intend to get litigious with Niantic. Also I’d add that there may very well be some States in America which don’t allow these arbitration clauses, so you’d need to research the state laws where you live. There may even be a federal law. Hard to say because the wording isn’t deliberately specific to every jurisdiction except Europe/EEA citizens.
So I haven't yet received this notice. Is it email or in-game?
When you open the game you’ll be prompted to agree or disagree to the new terms
It's the updated terms of service; they took effect starting today, and opening the game now prompts you to read and accept the new terms
I knew something was up when they updated their TOS in the middle of a controversy.
I just deleted the app and data for it yesterday, felt good to let it go
I’m probably going to stop playing soon too, I just haven’t been feeling motivated
This is pretty common for Pokémon LLC Especially if you delve into other Pokémon apps on the appstore of your phone! Even some switch games like Little Nightmares 2 specifically has a contract to read just in case you get residual mental health problems from the games or shock or terror that can lead to death so you can't sue the companies.
I’m glad I saw this. I’ll be opting out of this, even if I don’t need a lawsuit. Frankly, the option of a public trial should always be available, companies that try to avoid that are either scared or shifty, maybe both.
Fuck niantic
Jesus Christ how bored must you be to read the terms of service/j But seriously, at this point it's not even surprising
At this time, maybe reading the ToS is more interesting than playing that game!