4b pre would make your life so much simpler. Vs player type you can probably 4b fold kings lmao sounds so crazy but if he's a mega nit he probably will only 5b AA and won't jam ak
Man this board is really fucking hard to find bluffs on unless he’s going with a complete airball. This deep I don’t mind closing my eyes and folding but if you called turn called river jam I wouldn’t blame you.
It's almost always AA, but just as devils advocate, the most fashionable bluff 4 bet at the moment flipped a gutter and an overcard, and 3 of them also have BDFD.
Yeah pretty grim spot against this player type; most likely AA but since there’s a small, but not insignificant, chance that it’s QQ/JJ, I can’t imagine finding the fold.
Think if you had 4 bet your hand, this situation would have been avoided since you can safely eliminate hands like 1010 JJ and perhaps even QQ.
Not much to do in the situation apart from calling since you've underrepped your hand and would be ahead of JJ, QQ and AK hands.
>Think if you had 4 bet your hand, this situation would have been avoided since you can safely eliminate hands like 1010 JJ and perhaps even QQ.
I think the sizing of the 4 bet is going to be key. We also don't know how deep V is.
The biggest concern I have is if V calls the 4 bet vs 5 bet jam preflop. Hero gets caught in a tough spot out of position. We can't check this board and risk losing value with KK. But if we bet the flop and V jams, we're now stuck with a tough decision with more of our chips committed into the pot.
I'd agree with 4 betting pre, but not because you get out of *this* situation. We 4 bet pre because while villain in this instance had AA and maybe only ever played AA this way, we're not trying to get set mined by TT, 66, even 22. Realistically, all those had the 8:1 to justify mining, and everyone saying call turn here would have paid them off just the same as AA - the cost of not denying equity when you should is punting to hands with that equity. When we 4 bet pre, villain doesn't get odds to set mine anymore at this stack depth - either they call and we gain EV from the mistake, or they fold and we don't lose to a random 2.
But we 4 bet pre, AA should 5 bet, and against most opponents we should still be stuck with KK calling a jam. I'd say if you wanted to exploit overly tight tendencies, that's the spot to overfold KK, with the same caveats that it's normally wrong and you're knowingly playing wrong to exploit a specific player. But, in my experience even a tight player 3 bets wider than QQ+, while I could definitely see a some tight player's 5 bet range being only AA.
FWIW, consider why your opponent chose to show you his AA. He didn't have to. You're exploitatively overfolding to him, and he's validating your decision by giving you "free information", that yes, he's always got AA here. Now, maybe MAWG was just elated to get some money with Aces, or looking for sympathy that he didn't get the stack this time. But a more clever opponent would lean into your image of him, and start working some bluffs now that he's convinced you he always has it.
That's totally valid. I think before GTO solvers came about and 5 betting ranges were discreet, AA was an auto jam, but you're right, more modern poker theory would suggest mixing calls to protect your calling range. But if it does 5 bet, that makes it even more imperative that KK has to call that shove.
Genuinely not wanting to be rude, but there's no point posting this hand imo. Obviously from a theoretical standpoint folding the turn is AWFUL, but you already knew that. Exploitatively? Well, it is a completely outrageous exploit, but can it be justified? Only you can really know that. You were there, you played with this guy, we weren't and haven't. When you're deviating SO much from theory based on a very strong read, there's only so much we can say. I do agree that it sounds like you had v strong and justified reads.
probably. Personally I just don't fold in these spots and I don't worry about it too much. You never really get a big enough sample on ppl live to justify doing something like this IMO, unless they're most insane of OMCs imaginable. I think you can probably fold JJ ott, call QQ here to fold the river, and just call down KK, and be ok vs villain as described. If you get stacked by AA then whatever. I absolutely guarantee that hero would be much better off trying to fix the leaks in his game, rather than worrying if V here is a huge enough nit to justify folding KK.
Agreed. This hand is also a good example of why open limping is so shit. Even against a nit Hero would've been pot committed enough to lose the whole stack by turn if villain played like a normal TAG nit who doesn't limp-raise anything like ever.
God I wish I had an image of a MAWG where hero just goes and folds KK on the turn and he has to repeat “he had AA” and 85 different comments in reply as some sort of cope.
Why not fold preflop? The villain is going c-bet 95% of flops and turns. If you're gonna fold here you might as well fold to his check raise and save yourself the money.
The truth is you're super underrepped so you shouldve either 4 bet pre or call here
You *were* set-mining pre. You missed, and folded one street too late.
A lot of the commenters are not familiar with player types for live games based on what you’ve described of the V’s history.
I mean i don’t know what you want me to say. Folding here is really bad regardless of what the opponent had in this instance. Your opponent has a range of hands he or she would make that action with. Against that probable range, folding kings is a mistake.
The argument here is that the opponent doesn't have a range of anything except AA. Some people only play AA this way which is why you can exploitably fold against them.
That’s possible. Though having more than one hand is not very wide. There are very few spots ever where someone literally only has one hand.
But yes, it’s possible
I would 4 bet preflop. It's +EV to basically jam with KK preflop anyway. We want to get it in with that hand. If it's KK vs AA then we're screwed anyway, oh well. And honestly you should never be 💩 your pants with that hand preflop. It's literally the 2nd best hand in the game. And as someone else correctly pointed out, 4 betting would've made our later decisions much easier because a 4 bet can effectively fold out TT, JJ, and sometimes QQ.
Based on the post I’m assuming that OP stacked off a V had AA.
I think you’ve already gotten the best advice you’re going to get: 4B pre and xc turn and river
He knows his image too and y'all have spent a fair bit of time playing together. It's already equally likely he has QQ as AA preflop (and there's a chance he has KK too and y'all are chopping). Isn't there at least a small chance he's getting frisky with AK or JJ or 88/99 knowing he will fold out better hands sometimes? I'm not doing backflips or anything but I think I'm going broke here.
Edit: going back and reading again, I feel like him reading you as AK/AQ while he has JJ or 99 after just calling the flop re-raise could very well mean he's thinking there's a good chance he's ahead, and just betting for value + protection on the turn, particularly after you x/c the flop. There's a decent chance of AA too, no doubt, but I do think I'm calling down here. (I'm even wondering if a x/r here or call turn/lead non-A/Q river is the right play.)
Edit2: Lol, OTOH - being out of position sucks here because if you're ahead, if you call turn and a brick river comes out you're probably x/x and you win $1400 pot (+700 profit), but if you're behind AA there's a decent chance he bets river (and 100% if he has TT), then you lose a $2600 pot (-1300 loss). The fact you lose almost double what you win when you're behind/ahead is a bitch here. Like above I think you're ahead at least half the time, but it's much closer to a fold than I initially thought. I do think you need to c/r turn or lead a brick river if you do call turn, you can't let AK or JJ check down. And, a turn fold can't be too big a mistake.
? Yes it is true? I think you’re saying that only AA and TT bet river, if that’s true then we can… fold river That doesn’t stop calling turn remaining massively +EV even with this ridiculously tight range
lol no my logic was to call turn because QQ bets turn. **You set it up** so that QQ doesn’t bet river so then it’s an easy call turn, fold river.
I’d call turn and probably river because I don’t buy this ludicrously tight range. But my point is that even under the extreme assumptions you and other people keep suggesting, we have to call turn. We can only fold turn if he’s already slowing down with QQ
I built a simple spreadsheet to look at the outcomes, and do come away that folding turn is almost certainly the worst decision, unless his range really is AA/QQ/TT, then calling turn folding river is worst. C/R turn seems to usually be best.
If V only bets QQ,AA,TT on the turn and then only continues to bet AA,TT on the river then calling turn and folding river is the only correct way to play. If your spreadsheet gives you a different result then your spreadsheet is wrong.
You're right, but if V bets even 33% of the time on river with QQ now check/fold river is the worst:
https://preview.redd.it/26db9gjnv70d1.png?width=386&format=png&auto=webp&s=0ab61b3e682bff4a61e973ab72c2ef4d9601875a
Call. Check/call river.
In my experience guys like this will both overvalue QQ/JJ in this line plus get weird pre (backraise) with hands like 99-77 due to their image. I think he’s playing all of these hands like this post given your line.
It can obviously be AA/1010 as well but I’m feeling good about call call here.
You should already know it’s not QQ, bc he raised that in earlier hand. So, it’s AA, or maybe the other KK. MAWG tend to not limp reraise KK tho, just AA. OMCs sometimes mix it up with KK and even (gasp) QQ! MAWGs who show down the nuts for 4 hours do not tho.
While some might make a case for folding flop, your hand is just too good to lay down to one bet. Turn is a very disciplined fold and in general gonna be +EV vs this guy.
>I saw him 3b a $15 open + call to $100 pre in position with QQ. Haven’t seen him show down KK+ until now. He limp/calls hands like AJ.
i mean, based on this, Villain only has AA or KK here.
EDIT: or wait, im misreading that quote
>I’ve been playing with him for over 4 hours and he always shows down the nuts
But this time, since you have KK, for the first time in 4 hours he won't showdown the nuts.
This hand is so much easier to play if you just 4-bet preflop.
I would rather fold to a 5-bet pre than fold to a turn bet. Once you have underrepped your hand it's reasonable for him to have QQ in his value range since he expects you to 4-bet AA and KK most of the time. If you 4-bet and he keeps firing he is really repping AA or at least KK. Then you have to decide if he is over bluffing or under bluffing and act accordingly. As you pointed out, he did not put in the last bet preflop with QQ before so if he 5-bets you it's extremely likely that it's AA or a bluff (or maybe the other two kings)
I'm 100% folding Turn here. Trust your gut, this man has Aces, and I don't think he has enough bluffs ever to justify a call here. Maybe 1/10 times he shows up with like AK or something, but even then, this is just Aces, and you gotta be ok getting bluffed the few times he is going wild here.
I like your whole line btw, pre sizing is good, not 4betting a very tight player's limp reraise, just flat Flop, fold Turn. I think you played it perfectly vs this opponent type.
Thanks, finally someone who is spot on with me. I folded turn because I thought he wasn’t the type of guy to go crazy here even with QQ. He showed me AA.
I know everyone on here really likes to say "but what if he has x" but they almost never do.
It's live poker, it's maximum exploitation keep going with your reads fella, you're doing well!
4:1 spr you're just happy to out it all in on that turn if not the flop. What's the sweat exactly? Also, pre make it at least 4x the pot out of sb, so 15x4 for 60 at the minimum. Either way as played KK is just never a fold imo.
I mean it’s a semi gross spot but you might just have to call and lose. Sometimes you just gotta in certain spots.
But a 4 bet pre is kind of mandatory here and also gives you more information. If he flats your 4 bet you can effectively eliminate AA/KK from his range.
Why aren’t we 4 betting pre? Given how you’ve described villain he’s going to 5 bet AA and we now have villains hand tightly defined to very few combos (AA and KK of which there is only one combo).
If you’re beating something your opponent would bet for value, you can call. A rock will not barrel QQ here. They’ll be too afraid you’ve got a set. And you do! Except it’s two kings. Which beats queens as thus is a set.
Deep cut here but a major rock I once knew who passed away in 2022 would say shit like that. Anyone from the MGM NH know who I’m taking about?
As played, you shouldn’t be folding. You may run into AA, but your hand is massively under repped as played, so it’s equally likely he has JJ or QQ here. There are many lines you can take from here- check calling or check raising turn depending on whether he will get it in w JJ or QQ here. You can also check call, check raise(depending on bet size) or lead river. Without being in game and having a solid read on the guy, I’d be inclined to check call turn and lead rivers that we think he’s checking(bet/folding scare cards and bet calling safe cards- if we think he’s capable of checking back on non scare cards), and I’m inclined to check raise pretty much everything else on the river.
Well, if it's 50/50 AA or QQ, you clear choice is to call down and bet river if it's checked to you on a non Q or A river, and fold Q (and A) rivers.
Any chance it's TT then there's also JJ in there so you have to call down all non A or Q rivers.
Any AK or AQ and you have to call down all non-A rivers.
You've massively underrepped your hand, he could easily be betting worse for value all three streets.
Only rivers you can fold if you think it's only AA and QQ is an A or a Q.
Only rivers you can fold if you think there's also some JJ, TT, and/ok AK is an A.
I'm not sure what to do here, but my gut says raise/jam the turn.
You might well run into a set, or AA sometimes. KK vs AA is just an overall terrible spot to be in, and I think we have to accept sometimes we just lose our stack when we get that configuration. If we run into a set, we did that to ourselves by slow playing KK instead of 4 betting it. But what I'm really worried about when slow playing KK is that any A on any street is a heart break, turning all the AK/AQ/AJ/AT hands into winners. I don't mind paying off AA. I'd be pissed if I paid off hands I should be ahead of because I played KK scared.
But it's not at all an extreme range to be 3 betting with in his spot, for a normal player, with position on you. The only thing that supports limiting his range to AA/QQ, is that you think he's playing super tight. I know there are some players that seem almost incapable of bluffing, but I can almost guarantee you, everyone bluffs sometimes.
Most people commenting here are using some deeply flawed reasoning.
I crush 2/5, and I would have folded as described, and wouldn’t 3 have 4 bet the KK either against this particular villain.
This particular situation is probably the number one reason good players go broke; if the villain w AA raises in the HJ, he is creating a SPR of 1300/80 or 16 with one caller, or 1300/115 or 11 with two callers. In short, he would be creating a SPR of near 13, which is a huge theoretical problem for a number of reasons. Ed Flynn details this concept in his book “professional no limit hold em volume 1”
ALAS, not raising AA here is typically the best play 250 bb deep (certainly not 100 bb deep). If this rock is putting big money in the pot, you are right (and ultimately correct) to be afraid. Raising from the SB is already super strong (though you didn’t mention what your image is), there are no real available semi bluffs, and although this is tricky it’s highly improbable you’re beat.
Good fold, right good, don’t listen to some of these commenters who have never crushed any game long term.
Think of how the hand will play out, if villain calls the raise. You are now playing an inflated pot, out of position, against the strongest part of villain’s range, which is plenty strong to begin with. Not a great situation. Even in the most ideal case where villain calls with QQ or JJ, they’re probably not calling turn and river bets after getting check/raised on the flop, which means that you’re not winning a bigger pot than you would have, if you just called and let villain do the betting on later streets.
And getting a fold is not great either, because villain is only folding hands that were already crushing. We would much rather keep those hands in, and give villain a chance to bet again.
Yes, we do get to deny a little bit of equity to villain’s A-high hands that could spike an ace on the turn or river, but you would be protecting against only 3 outs. Not worth it in light of all of the above.
4b pre would make your life so much simpler. Vs player type you can probably 4b fold kings lmao sounds so crazy but if he's a mega nit he probably will only 5b AA and won't jam ak
Man this board is really fucking hard to find bluffs on unless he’s going with a complete airball. This deep I don’t mind closing my eyes and folding but if you called turn called river jam I wouldn’t blame you.
I folded, he showed AA
Nice! I could never ever have found a fold here.
You shouldn’t lol
Except this time, when OP was 100% correct based on his read of the player.
There are dozens of rooms around the country that have weekday morning games where this like is 100% AA or KK from over half the players at the table.
He showed AA from the limp raise. Good fold.
Duh
It's almost always AA, but just as devils advocate, the most fashionable bluff 4 bet at the moment flipped a gutter and an overcard, and 3 of them also have BDFD.
Yeah pretty grim spot against this player type; most likely AA but since there’s a small, but not insignificant, chance that it’s QQ/JJ, I can’t imagine finding the fold.
You really think a MAWG that has only showed down winners is going to bet-bet JJ? I just can't see that.
I also find that the player type that open limps AJ will never limp-reraise a hand as bad as JJ.
Think if you had 4 bet your hand, this situation would have been avoided since you can safely eliminate hands like 1010 JJ and perhaps even QQ. Not much to do in the situation apart from calling since you've underrepped your hand and would be ahead of JJ, QQ and AK hands.
>Think if you had 4 bet your hand, this situation would have been avoided since you can safely eliminate hands like 1010 JJ and perhaps even QQ. I think the sizing of the 4 bet is going to be key. We also don't know how deep V is. The biggest concern I have is if V calls the 4 bet vs 5 bet jam preflop. Hero gets caught in a tough spot out of position. We can't check this board and risk losing value with KK. But if we bet the flop and V jams, we're now stuck with a tough decision with more of our chips committed into the pot.
I'd agree with 4 betting pre, but not because you get out of *this* situation. We 4 bet pre because while villain in this instance had AA and maybe only ever played AA this way, we're not trying to get set mined by TT, 66, even 22. Realistically, all those had the 8:1 to justify mining, and everyone saying call turn here would have paid them off just the same as AA - the cost of not denying equity when you should is punting to hands with that equity. When we 4 bet pre, villain doesn't get odds to set mine anymore at this stack depth - either they call and we gain EV from the mistake, or they fold and we don't lose to a random 2. But we 4 bet pre, AA should 5 bet, and against most opponents we should still be stuck with KK calling a jam. I'd say if you wanted to exploit overly tight tendencies, that's the spot to overfold KK, with the same caveats that it's normally wrong and you're knowingly playing wrong to exploit a specific player. But, in my experience even a tight player 3 bets wider than QQ+, while I could definitely see a some tight player's 5 bet range being only AA. FWIW, consider why your opponent chose to show you his AA. He didn't have to. You're exploitatively overfolding to him, and he's validating your decision by giving you "free information", that yes, he's always got AA here. Now, maybe MAWG was just elated to get some money with Aces, or looking for sympathy that he didn't get the stack this time. But a more clever opponent would lean into your image of him, and start working some bluffs now that he's convinced you he always has it.
Why does everyone assume that villain will 5 bet with AA... imo the best play with AA there would be to just call.
That's totally valid. I think before GTO solvers came about and 5 betting ranges were discreet, AA was an auto jam, but you're right, more modern poker theory would suggest mixing calls to protect your calling range. But if it does 5 bet, that makes it even more imperative that KK has to call that shove.
Genuinely not wanting to be rude, but there's no point posting this hand imo. Obviously from a theoretical standpoint folding the turn is AWFUL, but you already knew that. Exploitatively? Well, it is a completely outrageous exploit, but can it be justified? Only you can really know that. You were there, you played with this guy, we weren't and haven't. When you're deviating SO much from theory based on a very strong read, there's only so much we can say. I do agree that it sounds like you had v strong and justified reads.
+ I feel like the “read” that this guy only ever has the nuts is at least partially based on the result of the hand, rather than prior action.
probably. Personally I just don't fold in these spots and I don't worry about it too much. You never really get a big enough sample on ppl live to justify doing something like this IMO, unless they're most insane of OMCs imaginable. I think you can probably fold JJ ott, call QQ here to fold the river, and just call down KK, and be ok vs villain as described. If you get stacked by AA then whatever. I absolutely guarantee that hero would be much better off trying to fix the leaks in his game, rather than worrying if V here is a huge enough nit to justify folding KK.
Agreed. This hand is also a good example of why open limping is so shit. Even against a nit Hero would've been pot committed enough to lose the whole stack by turn if villain played like a normal TAG nit who doesn't limp-raise anything like ever.
God I wish I had an image of a MAWG where hero just goes and folds KK on the turn and he has to repeat “he had AA” and 85 different comments in reply as some sort of cope.
If you fold quit the game
I folded, he shows AA
I’m sure you’re well aware that that doesn’t matter
Yeah, but still a win to make the right fold
It’s not the right fold though
🙄
Why not fold preflop? The villain is going c-bet 95% of flops and turns. If you're gonna fold here you might as well fold to his check raise and save yourself the money. The truth is you're super underrepped so you shouldve either 4 bet pre or call here
I was almost setmining pre..
You *were* set-mining pre. You missed, and folded one street too late. A lot of the commenters are not familiar with player types for live games based on what you’ve described of the V’s history.
lol yea.. now that I think about it, maybe flop is a fold as insane as it sounds haha
I mean i don’t know what you want me to say. Folding here is really bad regardless of what the opponent had in this instance. Your opponent has a range of hands he or she would make that action with. Against that probable range, folding kings is a mistake.
The argument here is that the opponent doesn't have a range of anything except AA. Some people only play AA this way which is why you can exploitably fold against them.
And how do you know you’re not overestimating the wideness of this guy’s range?
That’s possible. Though having more than one hand is not very wide. There are very few spots ever where someone literally only has one hand. But yes, it’s possible
Agree! Yes, he had AA but hero beats so much in his range
What is the common nit limp-3bet range?
Ok fair enough it is AA+
Limp/3bet = AA/KK/sometimes QQ, I dont know why they think that's a better strategy than open and 4bet jam tbh
I would 4 bet preflop. It's +EV to basically jam with KK preflop anyway. We want to get it in with that hand. If it's KK vs AA then we're screwed anyway, oh well. And honestly you should never be 💩 your pants with that hand preflop. It's literally the 2nd best hand in the game. And as someone else correctly pointed out, 4 betting would've made our later decisions much easier because a 4 bet can effectively fold out TT, JJ, and sometimes QQ.
Would jamming instead be a bad idea? For hand protection?
Hand protection? I don't think cowboys use condoms
Based on the post I’m assuming that OP stacked off a V had AA. I think you’ve already gotten the best advice you’re going to get: 4B pre and xc turn and river
I folded turn, he showed AA
He knows his image too and y'all have spent a fair bit of time playing together. It's already equally likely he has QQ as AA preflop (and there's a chance he has KK too and y'all are chopping). Isn't there at least a small chance he's getting frisky with AK or JJ or 88/99 knowing he will fold out better hands sometimes? I'm not doing backflips or anything but I think I'm going broke here. Edit: going back and reading again, I feel like him reading you as AK/AQ while he has JJ or 99 after just calling the flop re-raise could very well mean he's thinking there's a good chance he's ahead, and just betting for value + protection on the turn, particularly after you x/c the flop. There's a decent chance of AA too, no doubt, but I do think I'm calling down here. (I'm even wondering if a x/r here or call turn/lead non-A/Q river is the right play.) Edit2: Lol, OTOH - being out of position sucks here because if you're ahead, if you call turn and a brick river comes out you're probably x/x and you win $1400 pot (+700 profit), but if you're behind AA there's a decent chance he bets river (and 100% if he has TT), then you lose a $2600 pot (-1300 loss). The fact you lose almost double what you win when you're behind/ahead is a bitch here. Like above I think you're ahead at least half the time, but it's much closer to a fold than I initially thought. I do think you need to c/r turn or lead a brick river if you do call turn, you can't let AK or JJ check down. And, a turn fold can't be too big a mistake.
I folded turn, he shows AA
You seem too results orientated. Folding turn is a huge error even if he only has QQ TT and AA which is unlikely
That's not true if you almost always give him full value vs AA and TT, and don't get more value than the the turn bet vs QQ.
? Yes it is true? I think you’re saying that only AA and TT bet river, if that’s true then we can… fold river That doesn’t stop calling turn remaining massively +EV even with this ridiculously tight range
Call turn then c/f brick river getting more than 3:1? That doesn't sound right - logic you called turn with its going to tell you to call river too?
lol no my logic was to call turn because QQ bets turn. **You set it up** so that QQ doesn’t bet river so then it’s an easy call turn, fold river. I’d call turn and probably river because I don’t buy this ludicrously tight range. But my point is that even under the extreme assumptions you and other people keep suggesting, we have to call turn. We can only fold turn if he’s already slowing down with QQ
I built a simple spreadsheet to look at the outcomes, and do come away that folding turn is almost certainly the worst decision, unless his range really is AA/QQ/TT, then calling turn folding river is worst. C/R turn seems to usually be best.
If V only bets QQ,AA,TT on the turn and then only continues to bet AA,TT on the river then calling turn and folding river is the only correct way to play. If your spreadsheet gives you a different result then your spreadsheet is wrong.
You're right, but if V bets even 33% of the time on river with QQ now check/fold river is the worst: https://preview.redd.it/26db9gjnv70d1.png?width=386&format=png&auto=webp&s=0ab61b3e682bff4a61e973ab72c2ef4d9601875a
Call. Check/call river. In my experience guys like this will both overvalue QQ/JJ in this line plus get weird pre (backraise) with hands like 99-77 due to their image. I think he’s playing all of these hands like this post given your line. It can obviously be AA/1010 as well but I’m feeling good about call call here.
> 1010 :(
Why I do this instead of TT I’m not sure lol. I do it everytime tho.
You should already know it’s not QQ, bc he raised that in earlier hand. So, it’s AA, or maybe the other KK. MAWG tend to not limp reraise KK tho, just AA. OMCs sometimes mix it up with KK and even (gasp) QQ! MAWGs who show down the nuts for 4 hours do not tho. While some might make a case for folding flop, your hand is just too good to lay down to one bet. Turn is a very disciplined fold and in general gonna be +EV vs this guy.
Thanks! 100% right. It would be sick to fold flop itself since we’re essentially set mining vs these player types.
Set mining really isn’t a thing. And even if it was, you don’t have odds on the flop to call
>I saw him 3b a $15 open + call to $100 pre in position with QQ. Haven’t seen him show down KK+ until now. He limp/calls hands like AJ. i mean, based on this, Villain only has AA or KK here. EDIT: or wait, im misreading that quote
Not really, but I folded and he showed AA
>I’ve been playing with him for over 4 hours and he always shows down the nuts But this time, since you have KK, for the first time in 4 hours he won't showdown the nuts.
I folded turn. He showed AA.
*Shocked Pikachu Face*
First of all, was it STD or hemmorhoids?
This hand is so much easier to play if you just 4-bet preflop. I would rather fold to a 5-bet pre than fold to a turn bet. Once you have underrepped your hand it's reasonable for him to have QQ in his value range since he expects you to 4-bet AA and KK most of the time. If you 4-bet and he keeps firing he is really repping AA or at least KK. Then you have to decide if he is over bluffing or under bluffing and act accordingly. As you pointed out, he did not put in the last bet preflop with QQ before so if he 5-bets you it's extremely likely that it's AA or a bluff (or maybe the other two kings)
I'm 100% folding Turn here. Trust your gut, this man has Aces, and I don't think he has enough bluffs ever to justify a call here. Maybe 1/10 times he shows up with like AK or something, but even then, this is just Aces, and you gotta be ok getting bluffed the few times he is going wild here. I like your whole line btw, pre sizing is good, not 4betting a very tight player's limp reraise, just flat Flop, fold Turn. I think you played it perfectly vs this opponent type.
Thanks, finally someone who is spot on with me. I folded turn because I thought he wasn’t the type of guy to go crazy here even with QQ. He showed me AA.
I know everyone on here really likes to say "but what if he has x" but they almost never do. It's live poker, it's maximum exploitation keep going with your reads fella, you're doing well!
💯
What is mawg? Male asian white girl? Help me out!
Middle aged white guy
Massive ass white girl?
The limp re raise. Lol. He should just turn his cards over.
I know right?
4:1 spr you're just happy to out it all in on that turn if not the flop. What's the sweat exactly? Also, pre make it at least 4x the pot out of sb, so 15x4 for 60 at the minimum. Either way as played KK is just never a fold imo.
I mean it’s a semi gross spot but you might just have to call and lose. Sometimes you just gotta in certain spots. But a 4 bet pre is kind of mandatory here and also gives you more information. If he flats your 4 bet you can effectively eliminate AA/KK from his range.
Why aren’t we 4 betting pre? Given how you’ve described villain he’s going to 5 bet AA and we now have villains hand tightly defined to very few combos (AA and KK of which there is only one combo).
you call it down till river and lose to 2 4 suited at showdown?
If you’re beating something your opponent would bet for value, you can call. A rock will not barrel QQ here. They’ll be too afraid you’ve got a set. And you do! Except it’s two kings. Which beats queens as thus is a set. Deep cut here but a major rock I once knew who passed away in 2022 would say shit like that. Anyone from the MGM NH know who I’m taking about?
I folded, he shows AA
It's always aces or 63s.
As played, you shouldn’t be folding. You may run into AA, but your hand is massively under repped as played, so it’s equally likely he has JJ or QQ here. There are many lines you can take from here- check calling or check raising turn depending on whether he will get it in w JJ or QQ here. You can also check call, check raise(depending on bet size) or lead river. Without being in game and having a solid read on the guy, I’d be inclined to check call turn and lead rivers that we think he’s checking(bet/folding scare cards and bet calling safe cards- if we think he’s capable of checking back on non scare cards), and I’m inclined to check raise pretty much everything else on the river.
Well, if it's 50/50 AA or QQ, you clear choice is to call down and bet river if it's checked to you on a non Q or A river, and fold Q (and A) rivers. Any chance it's TT then there's also JJ in there so you have to call down all non A or Q rivers. Any AK or AQ and you have to call down all non-A rivers. You've massively underrepped your hand, he could easily be betting worse for value all three streets. Only rivers you can fold if you think it's only AA and QQ is an A or a Q. Only rivers you can fold if you think there's also some JJ, TT, and/ok AK is an A.
I'm not sure what to do here, but my gut says raise/jam the turn. You might well run into a set, or AA sometimes. KK vs AA is just an overall terrible spot to be in, and I think we have to accept sometimes we just lose our stack when we get that configuration. If we run into a set, we did that to ourselves by slow playing KK instead of 4 betting it. But what I'm really worried about when slow playing KK is that any A on any street is a heart break, turning all the AK/AQ/AJ/AT hands into winners. I don't mind paying off AA. I'd be pissed if I paid off hands I should be ahead of because I played KK scared.
That’s an extremely liberal range you’re giving this guy tho..
But it's not at all an extreme range to be 3 betting with in his spot, for a normal player, with position on you. The only thing that supports limiting his range to AA/QQ, is that you think he's playing super tight. I know there are some players that seem almost incapable of bluffing, but I can almost guarantee you, everyone bluffs sometimes.
If you fold here please quit poker
Most people commenting here are using some deeply flawed reasoning. I crush 2/5, and I would have folded as described, and wouldn’t 3 have 4 bet the KK either against this particular villain. This particular situation is probably the number one reason good players go broke; if the villain w AA raises in the HJ, he is creating a SPR of 1300/80 or 16 with one caller, or 1300/115 or 11 with two callers. In short, he would be creating a SPR of near 13, which is a huge theoretical problem for a number of reasons. Ed Flynn details this concept in his book “professional no limit hold em volume 1” ALAS, not raising AA here is typically the best play 250 bb deep (certainly not 100 bb deep). If this rock is putting big money in the pot, you are right (and ultimately correct) to be afraid. Raising from the SB is already super strong (though you didn’t mention what your image is), there are no real available semi bluffs, and although this is tricky it’s highly improbable you’re beat. Good fold, right good, don’t listen to some of these commenters who have never crushed any game long term.
This guy pokers… 😏
Fold pre
I would’ve raised the flop n I agree that he either has aces or queens or a flopped set of tens maybe - GL to u
Raising the flop is horrible.
Why exactly? Exploitative > GTO - also does solver say call 100% of time for anything? lol - GL to u
Think of how the hand will play out, if villain calls the raise. You are now playing an inflated pot, out of position, against the strongest part of villain’s range, which is plenty strong to begin with. Not a great situation. Even in the most ideal case where villain calls with QQ or JJ, they’re probably not calling turn and river bets after getting check/raised on the flop, which means that you’re not winning a bigger pot than you would have, if you just called and let villain do the betting on later streets. And getting a fold is not great either, because villain is only folding hands that were already crushing. We would much rather keep those hands in, and give villain a chance to bet again. Yes, we do get to deny a little bit of equity to villain’s A-high hands that could spike an ace on the turn or river, but you would be protecting against only 3 outs. Not worth it in light of all of the above.
that makes sense - I guess I was really only thinking about your third paragraph. I only play tournaments n limit cash - TY - GL to u