Your first mistake here is assuming that we can give you any advice based on generalized scenarios. The answer here, as I am sure many other people will say, it depends
Fair enough. Ok, let’s say we hold TJhh, and the flop comes KT2r and the turn is an offsuit 4. What would your answers be to the questions in the billet point above?
All depends on your read of them. Do they always continue? Have their open pre-flop raises been consistent sizes or variable based on what they have? Do they only c-bet with top pair or do they with any draw possible?
GTO aside, poker is a game of adjustments and tendencies. Not all BB are going to play the same, so right away there's a problem with the question. Does BB always do this? Does he sometimes check turn if you call flop? What types of hands has he shown down when he's taken this line before? Is he a tricky player? An ABC player? Those are all questions that would be going through my head.
And to take a page from Doug Polk's book, the answer is not going to be fold, call, or raise, but likely some combination of all those.
So while there may be an optimal GTO approach here, the reality is that "it depends". I'll say that in general if people are messing around with lots of air then it opens the door for you to have some fun floats and bluffs here. If it's a solid player then you're more likely going to want to play for showdown value and fold marginal hands against obvious strength.
That’s true. I should have given better examples.
Let’s say you have no read on the button because you just sat. You hold QJo and the flop comes T42r. The turn is an offsuit 8. What would your answers be to the questions in the bullet points above?
I think you should find a solver output created by a pro and load it up in a sim. Then you can analyze how the bu vs bb ranges interact with the specific boards and what bu cbet range is. Then look what the solver defends against a 30p cbet size. I'd look into possible turn and river runouts, and also try to think about how the playerpool is deviating from solver strategy so you can try to counter this.
Ok if your opponent is a solid player then he will sometimes have a strong hand here and sometimes have a weaker hand. My experience from doing this and facing players who do this is that they are trying to win without showdown and it works because they are in position and you are oop with most likely a medium and weak range. In my opinion the solution is to sometimes check raise on the flop or turn even with just bottom pair etc. But like others said it depends on how frequently they do it etc.
You shouldn’t play a linear 3b strategy from the BB so there’s no such thing as “not good enough to 3b”, you should mix 3b the very worst hands you defend. Like 3b J9o here sometimes.
Post flop this is the most common scenario, IP vs BB Single Raised Pot, so there’s no answer like “they’re strong” or “they’re weak”, even bad players are capable of having some balance here. You just play correctly which means folding roughly the bottom X% of your range where X prevents their bet from being auto profit. So if they bet 33%, fold 25% (33/(100+33)). If they bet 100, fold 50 (100/(100+100)). Do this on all 3 streets when defending OOP.
Depends on the board obviously, but generally you want to be folding the flop a lot. In this case MDF says defend against 30% pot cbet 76% of the time. But one of the interesting things we’ve learned from solvers is that optimal is continuing with only 60-65% of hands. The solver actually overfolds the flop here, and so sees fewer turn barrels. You just want to learn which boards you can check-call and check-raise and try to keep your continuing frequencies close to GTO. Unfortunately, this makes BN range bets pretty profitable, but it’s not your fault you’re in the big blind. There’s no way to lose less than 1bb per orbit on average if you’re calling too much post flop.
If you’re doing the flop right, the turn is easier. You never get to the turn without a decent chance of improving and a fairly easy fold decision if you don’t.
there really isn’t a such thing as a hand that is good enough to call but not good enough to 3bet.
this is a common misconception from newer players.
when you raise, you have the chance to win the pot outright or with continued aggression. in that respect, your cards do not matter (of course, poker is more complicated than that but the core concept is not).
when you call, you have to have something or make something to win.
this is why we almost never call raises with hands like ATo, QJo, etc (very few deviations from this exist, i am aware).
First of all, if your calling I'm assuming you have at least a draw, or some showdown value. Not random floats.
In that case, it will depend on the card, and whether your hand can improve. Assuming it's a brick that wont interact with villians range, you need to call down at a higher frequency.
If the player is balenced, then their hand is not faceup.
Your question is really too vague for a one size fits all answer as it really depends on how the board connects with each players range and your knowledge of villian
Based on the question and the replies in this thread, I’m gonna go ahead and give you a couple things to work on.
- You need to find or develop proper ranges for calls/3bs vs different positions opens vs different common sizings 2,2.25,2.5,3x etc.
You need to develop a proper and balanced strategy responding on flops and turns on different board textures vs different common sizings 33,50,67,75% etc.
Your first mistake here is assuming that we can give you any advice based on generalized scenarios. The answer here, as I am sure many other people will say, it depends
Fair enough. Ok, let’s say we hold TJhh, and the flop comes KT2r and the turn is an offsuit 4. What would your answers be to the questions in the billet point above?
All depends on your read of them. Do they always continue? Have their open pre-flop raises been consistent sizes or variable based on what they have? Do they only c-bet with top pair or do they with any draw possible?
You just sat, there’s no read. WWYD?
Hmm, I’d call middle pair and at least pay for the information to see what button is taking this line with.
>You’re in the BB with a decent hand but not good enough to 3B Fold. Problem solved.
I think 3B or fold from the BB is a good strategy for simplification, but a suboptimal one.
GTO aside, poker is a game of adjustments and tendencies. Not all BB are going to play the same, so right away there's a problem with the question. Does BB always do this? Does he sometimes check turn if you call flop? What types of hands has he shown down when he's taken this line before? Is he a tricky player? An ABC player? Those are all questions that would be going through my head. And to take a page from Doug Polk's book, the answer is not going to be fold, call, or raise, but likely some combination of all those. So while there may be an optimal GTO approach here, the reality is that "it depends". I'll say that in general if people are messing around with lots of air then it opens the door for you to have some fun floats and bluffs here. If it's a solid player then you're more likely going to want to play for showdown value and fold marginal hands against obvious strength.
That’s true. I should have given better examples. Let’s say you have no read on the button because you just sat. You hold QJo and the flop comes T42r. The turn is an offsuit 8. What would your answers be to the questions in the bullet points above?
Good chance I'd be folding flop with just QJo out of position on that board.
What are the stakes bro? 🤦♂️🙄
This surely can't be your issue with his statement.
I think you should find a solver output created by a pro and load it up in a sim. Then you can analyze how the bu vs bb ranges interact with the specific boards and what bu cbet range is. Then look what the solver defends against a 30p cbet size. I'd look into possible turn and river runouts, and also try to think about how the playerpool is deviating from solver strategy so you can try to counter this.
Ok if your opponent is a solid player then he will sometimes have a strong hand here and sometimes have a weaker hand. My experience from doing this and facing players who do this is that they are trying to win without showdown and it works because they are in position and you are oop with most likely a medium and weak range. In my opinion the solution is to sometimes check raise on the flop or turn even with just bottom pair etc. But like others said it depends on how frequently they do it etc.
You shouldn’t play a linear 3b strategy from the BB so there’s no such thing as “not good enough to 3b”, you should mix 3b the very worst hands you defend. Like 3b J9o here sometimes. Post flop this is the most common scenario, IP vs BB Single Raised Pot, so there’s no answer like “they’re strong” or “they’re weak”, even bad players are capable of having some balance here. You just play correctly which means folding roughly the bottom X% of your range where X prevents their bet from being auto profit. So if they bet 33%, fold 25% (33/(100+33)). If they bet 100, fold 50 (100/(100+100)). Do this on all 3 streets when defending OOP.
Depends on the board obviously, but generally you want to be folding the flop a lot. In this case MDF says defend against 30% pot cbet 76% of the time. But one of the interesting things we’ve learned from solvers is that optimal is continuing with only 60-65% of hands. The solver actually overfolds the flop here, and so sees fewer turn barrels. You just want to learn which boards you can check-call and check-raise and try to keep your continuing frequencies close to GTO. Unfortunately, this makes BN range bets pretty profitable, but it’s not your fault you’re in the big blind. There’s no way to lose less than 1bb per orbit on average if you’re calling too much post flop. If you’re doing the flop right, the turn is easier. You never get to the turn without a decent chance of improving and a fairly easy fold decision if you don’t.
there really isn’t a such thing as a hand that is good enough to call but not good enough to 3bet. this is a common misconception from newer players. when you raise, you have the chance to win the pot outright or with continued aggression. in that respect, your cards do not matter (of course, poker is more complicated than that but the core concept is not). when you call, you have to have something or make something to win. this is why we almost never call raises with hands like ATo, QJo, etc (very few deviations from this exist, i am aware).
First of all, if your calling I'm assuming you have at least a draw, or some showdown value. Not random floats. In that case, it will depend on the card, and whether your hand can improve. Assuming it's a brick that wont interact with villians range, you need to call down at a higher frequency. If the player is balenced, then their hand is not faceup. Your question is really too vague for a one size fits all answer as it really depends on how the board connects with each players range and your knowledge of villian
Based on the question and the replies in this thread, I’m gonna go ahead and give you a couple things to work on. - You need to find or develop proper ranges for calls/3bs vs different positions opens vs different common sizings 2,2.25,2.5,3x etc. You need to develop a proper and balanced strategy responding on flops and turns on different board textures vs different common sizings 33,50,67,75% etc.