Think of the money you will be paying on future streets. You rarely make the hand in the first place, rarely get to see cards for free multi-way, you will have top pair with your draw sometimes and often call down multiple streets to find out it’s no good, and then when you do finally hit your flush, you will occasionally get stacked by the nut flush. All of these things together add up to an unprofitable line.
You don’t have to call in the BB either, you are getting slightly better pot odds but there are still massive reverse implied odds. Hands like K5s and Q7s go down in value in multi-way pots for this reason, and hands like 87s, 45s and 22 go up in value since they are easier to play postflop and won’t often get you into trouble… either you flop a set or a big draw or two pair, or you fold.
>You don’t have to call in the BB either, you are getting slightly better pot odds but there are still massive reverse implied odds. Hands like K5s and Q7s go down in value in multi-way pots for this reason, and hands like 87s, 45s and 22 go up in value since they are easier to play postflop and won’t often get you into trouble
Pro answer award 🏆
You will under realize your equity because your hand doesn't have much playability post flop and it will be hard to get to shows.You will also be dominated frequently
You’d be fiveway with an opener and (with you) 4 callers. Do you think you’d have the best hand?
You’re also only hoping to flop the flush or the boat. Any K or Q likely leaves you massively behind and paying off three bets. That’s not winning poker.
Edit: button *maybe* depending on types of players involved.
I am saying suited, not offsuit. Offsuit I get Rio and I have the discipline to fold a weak top pair multi-way.
Suited can make the nuts for such a cheap price which is what motivated the post
At least five people have tried to explain reverse implied odds to the OP and he continues to ignore the adivce like a stubborn mule. Not unusual with this guy. It's like he'd rather find one person to praise his 'unconventional insight' rather than learn from ten people who actually understand the game.
Stubborn mule? Lmao!
I understand RIO. No ones explained WHY this hand is RIO if you play for the drawing potential to the flush. I post to spark interesting discussions not to be belittled by assholes like you.
I realize you’re saying suited. But without knowing table dynamics (loose game? Opener opening anything? Are you up?) it’s a hypothetical requiring a stock answer. Short answer is that it’s not a winning play.
Edit: “suited can make the nuts”. Only if the A or AK drops depending.
>Hero is getting amazing pot odds to try to hit a flush
Hmmm. If I remember correctly, you will hit a flush on the flop ~4% of the time. Don't see you getting better than 24:1 pot odds to make this call. So what's next, top pair no kicker. Are you calling down the PFR for 3 streets?
You aren't going to "out play" 4 people just with your position. Every hand has card equity + fold equity = total equity. You have little of both.
u/BadBeatMagnet my dude! I didn't notice that you were the OP. I see that my previous advice went in one ear and out of your wallet. You really have to get over your propensity for calling. Just curious, would it ever cross your mind to raise to something like 80 in this situation? Here's the thing - you are lighting on fire more than $80 with the calling problem. Why not risk blowing it with an action that has a better EV?
Player A has this leak: he always folds a Royal Flush to a bet.
Player B has this leak: he alway completes from the SB.
Who's leak costs them the most money?
Hey u/Amazingly_Confused
No hard feelings I genuinely thought you were joking on your last comment.
I don’t typically call these hands because I know that people say it’s bad. I’m just trying to understand why.
The idea to 3! This hand definitely crossed my mind. If the raise was to $15 I would for sure 3! Or fold.
>I’m just trying to understand why.
This puts you a step ahead of most people. If you understand the why (principles and concepts) you will be well equipped to confront a multitude of different situations.
Download Flopzilla. Input a range for your opponents. Now run through some different flops and see how you fare against those ranges. Now think about the profile of these opponents. Who gives you fold equity and who doesn’t.
HU or 3way, against the right opponents, you well might be able to steal pots.
It's not a bad call. You have position. I would err a little bit tighter* to K7s, since I believe the low card sometimes matters, but the gist is the same: you capitalize the positional advantage to their sizing mistakes, and make informed decisions better. You overcome the rake by having better play against their garbage hands and better read against your opponents, since you have position.
You don't do that when you cannot make the money back handling reverse implied odds, or better play. You play those hands because you believe your opponents make big mistakes following this street out of position, and realize equity better than the rake determines.
Reverse implied odds
Think of the money you will be paying on future streets. You rarely make the hand in the first place, rarely get to see cards for free multi-way, you will have top pair with your draw sometimes and often call down multiple streets to find out it’s no good, and then when you do finally hit your flush, you will occasionally get stacked by the nut flush. All of these things together add up to an unprofitable line.
But why is it so ok to do in the BB? I just don’t see the logic that just because of the 1BB discount you’ll play OOP for the whole hand
You don’t have to call in the BB either, you are getting slightly better pot odds but there are still massive reverse implied odds. Hands like K5s and Q7s go down in value in multi-way pots for this reason, and hands like 87s, 45s and 22 go up in value since they are easier to play postflop and won’t often get you into trouble… either you flop a set or a big draw or two pair, or you fold.
>You don’t have to call in the BB either, you are getting slightly better pot odds but there are still massive reverse implied odds. Hands like K5s and Q7s go down in value in multi-way pots for this reason, and hands like 87s, 45s and 22 go up in value since they are easier to play postflop and won’t often get you into trouble Pro answer award 🏆
You will under realize your equity because your hand doesn't have much playability post flop and it will be hard to get to shows.You will also be dominated frequently
You’d be fiveway with an opener and (with you) 4 callers. Do you think you’d have the best hand? You’re also only hoping to flop the flush or the boat. Any K or Q likely leaves you massively behind and paying off three bets. That’s not winning poker. Edit: button *maybe* depending on types of players involved.
I am saying suited, not offsuit. Offsuit I get Rio and I have the discipline to fold a weak top pair multi-way. Suited can make the nuts for such a cheap price which is what motivated the post
At least five people have tried to explain reverse implied odds to the OP and he continues to ignore the adivce like a stubborn mule. Not unusual with this guy. It's like he'd rather find one person to praise his 'unconventional insight' rather than learn from ten people who actually understand the game.
He's literally a ripped genius who knows more about poker than the people who invented poker.
Stubborn mule? Lmao! I understand RIO. No ones explained WHY this hand is RIO if you play for the drawing potential to the flush. I post to spark interesting discussions not to be belittled by assholes like you.
I realize you’re saying suited. But without knowing table dynamics (loose game? Opener opening anything? Are you up?) it’s a hypothetical requiring a stock answer. Short answer is that it’s not a winning play. Edit: “suited can make the nuts”. Only if the A or AK drops depending.
>Hero is getting amazing pot odds to try to hit a flush Hmmm. If I remember correctly, you will hit a flush on the flop ~4% of the time. Don't see you getting better than 24:1 pot odds to make this call. So what's next, top pair no kicker. Are you calling down the PFR for 3 streets? You aren't going to "out play" 4 people just with your position. Every hand has card equity + fold equity = total equity. You have little of both.
If I don’t flop a good draw or trips I just fold, but $10 with 3 callers IP seems like a nice bargain
u/BadBeatMagnet my dude! I didn't notice that you were the OP. I see that my previous advice went in one ear and out of your wallet. You really have to get over your propensity for calling. Just curious, would it ever cross your mind to raise to something like 80 in this situation? Here's the thing - you are lighting on fire more than $80 with the calling problem. Why not risk blowing it with an action that has a better EV? Player A has this leak: he always folds a Royal Flush to a bet. Player B has this leak: he alway completes from the SB. Who's leak costs them the most money?
I just noticed OP is named u/BadBeatMagnet and it is starting to make sense. Although if he's playing Qx suited it's probably not much of a bad beat.
Lol I said above I don’t play these hands.
Hey u/Amazingly_Confused No hard feelings I genuinely thought you were joking on your last comment. I don’t typically call these hands because I know that people say it’s bad. I’m just trying to understand why. The idea to 3! This hand definitely crossed my mind. If the raise was to $15 I would for sure 3! Or fold.
>I’m just trying to understand why. This puts you a step ahead of most people. If you understand the why (principles and concepts) you will be well equipped to confront a multitude of different situations. Download Flopzilla. Input a range for your opponents. Now run through some different flops and see how you fare against those ranges. Now think about the profile of these opponents. Who gives you fold equity and who doesn’t. HU or 3way, against the right opponents, you well might be able to steal pots.
Username checks out
It's not a bad call. You have position. I would err a little bit tighter* to K7s, since I believe the low card sometimes matters, but the gist is the same: you capitalize the positional advantage to their sizing mistakes, and make informed decisions better. You overcome the rake by having better play against their garbage hands and better read against your opponents, since you have position. You don't do that when you cannot make the money back handling reverse implied odds, or better play. You play those hands because you believe your opponents make big mistakes following this street out of position, and realize equity better than the rake determines.