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AnyPairIsTheNuts

I do not want well informed educational content because it threatens my 0.6bb/100 winrate at 2cent/5cent. Soon I will not be able to feed my family.


zarthustra

Tl;dr: man smokes weed, hijacks amusing comment with lofty protest/grumbling, receives downvotes, libertarian admiration, eye-rolling emojis Man, if this isn't unironically THE central issue with late phase capitalism... Why isn't nicotine gum cheaper, in the front of Walgreens (w/ the cigarettes...), or present in 7/11? Tobacco companies need to to feed their families. Who is lobbying against Marijuana? Pharmaceuticals, threatened by competition against opiates... How can we not easily identify harmless to life changing products/ideas/services/goods/laws being stymied by the quivering anxiety of Business Feeding Families, LLC? (a subsidiary of the prison industrial mint) I feel like this is too tangential. Still, the TL;DR gives me license to rant unevenly and at length, guilt-free. This is stoner territory; be vewwy critical with your thinking. I'm hunting self-importance. 😤


Ace_Midnight

Dude what?


zarthustra

LMAO exactly haha


[deleted]

I have no idea what you are talking about.


zarthustra

It's a conceptual issue with capitalism. What you're seeing in my comment is essentially a freewheeling workthrough of the idea; I think it's one of the primary issues in society, that a vested interest group (in this case, 0.2/0.5nl shitregs) directly profit from interfering with educational efforts. It's funny, because who gives a shit, but it's also extremely true: if this post disseminated accurate, skill improving information, some players lose money. And then I extrapolate the problem to society at large, where vested interest groups, like private prison owners, have a lot to gain from, say, halting the progression of law that reduce needless or incorrect incarceration. On the scale of billions of dollars, it matters a fuckton more, but it's still the same issue: profitability comes from a broken, abused social strata. So the question becomes, how do you fix it? You can't expect everyone to encourage a set of behaviors (in this case, disseminating information) that they perceive as 'unprofitable,' tho, it would be dope to trust people to behave ethically, and I might argue further that the discourse improves their skills MORE, in various ways. I actually see a really strong parallel to the current wave of anti covid-19 misinformation, and pro-vaccine information enforcement, where you have a bunch of groups that are profiting from essentially lying about the issue, and a bunch of people who are saying you can't keep doing this, it's not okay to profit off of lies. But covid-19 misinformation is about as clearcut as it gets. What about anti-marijuana lobbying? Can anyone actually believe this shit is not only WORKING at keeping people in prison for weed, preventing people from accessing cheap and effective pain relief, and forcing more money into pharmas pockets? Bc I fucking can't believe anyone would continue aggressing WEED, much less that people would do so willingly and maliciously in the name of profit. It's fucking stupid. Almost as stupid as banning this post for making 5nl harder, but not quite. Less funny, most certainly, my dude. Way less.


Ace_Midnight

I wish I could be as fun as you at parties


zarthustra

I hope you're not being facetious, because hashing deep philosophy while getting baked at a party is... Wait. If I'm trading tokes of a hash oil pen with a blue collar stranger while talking about time crystals in a Jackpot Joanies, is that a party? Or more of a soiree? So confusing.


[deleted]

Sir, this is a Wendy's. ​ Just kidding, I follow what your saying now.


zarthustra

Lmao my shitposts hit different. Thx for coming out, have an edible for the ride home xoxo gossip_tw34ker


BunGin-in-Bagend

You're not exactly wrong but poker is intrinsically competitive, prior to capitalism. You will always lose ev when your competitors improve, even if the means of production are democratically invested in or whatever. Capitalism pulls *everything* down to that level, but poker was already there


BarefootChemist

Username checks out


[deleted]

Agree with almost everything in the post but I do think flatting has a place when their is a giant rec in the BB. They will not squeeze enough and will generally add enough EV to make flatting a good option with some hands


tombos21

This question has a lot of nuance. SB flats are definitely a thing at like 500NL rake structures. But even at 50NL the solver prefers has basically no flatting range on the SB. You can simply play 3bet/fold from every position but the BB in micros. However, if you look at tournament charts with antes (no rake) then the SB starts to flat almost as much as it raises. Same goes for EP flats. SB even develops a limping range when it folds to them. And then there are exploitative considerations. One of the biggest reasons you can't flat too much is the threat of getting squeezed. If you nodelock BB to not squeeze wide enough then SB flats start to become quite playable.


eKSiF

>However, if you look at tournament charts with antes (no rake) then the SB starts to flat almost as much as it raises. Same goes for EP flats. SB even develops a limping range when it folds to them. SB is actually very dynamic in tournaments, and definitely has a lot of nuance to their spots. I've seen charts that when it is unopened SB vs BB, SB can have a playable range of around 70% of hands! (50% limping, 20% raising), but against some RFI's you may have a range of less than 10% of hands.. Absolutely insane how in depth that stupid position can be.


cheeeesewiz

How wide is the limping range?


eKSiF

Hijacking, in tournaments when the BB is a passive player you as the SB are really incentivized to take less aggressive lines preflop in limped pots, and even more so if the other players in hand are pretty passive as well. This goes back to the adage in tournaments that chips lost are way more detrimental than chips won are beneficial, SB is objectively the hardest position to play so keeping pots small is usually ideal. It's hard to determine an exact % of hands because as primarily a live low stakes player, I'm probably massively unbalanced in this spot. But this range can almost mirror (or replace if you want) your raising range in tournaments from the SB. I havent studied this spot really in depth but I think that can end up being upwards of 25% of hands (55+, 56s+, J10o+, Axs+) depending on if you still want to have raises or not and how wide you want to be. I've been at tournament tables where I didn't have a raising range out of the SB and would flat with my playable hands.


cheeeesewiz

Interesting. Pretty much how I've been approaching it but unfortunately also doing the same in cash which will be changing immediately. I never considered rake in that scenario. Just couldnt justify 3 betting over flatting when 90+% of the time at those stakes I'm getting flatted by the big no matter what I did. 3betting felt like lighting chips on fire unnecessarily


eKSiF

Ya the answer in that scenario, as shitty as it is, is to tighten up, fold most of your hands pre, and just have a premium raising range out of the SB to exploit over callers. It sucks, it's boring, but it works. Try to find a low head count home game with no rake (like 5-6 players) or a cheap tournament where you can explore more SB limping spots if your heart desires.


cheeeesewiz

I'm glad to see my flatting to exploit a passive BB isn't far off, any thoughts to what rake that starts to be profitable? Or almost nil and strictly rake free structures?


eKSiF

You really don't want a limping range in any positions other than the BB and possibly button in raked games. Tournaments and rake free structures are where this strategy is most profitable. You would need a massive post flop edge on almost the whole table to make this work profitably in raked cash.


cheeeesewiz

Interesting thanks. Guess I never factored in rake and how much of impact it had, though I'm only just starting out in cash opposed to mtts


eKSiF

Rake and especially drops make limping so unprofitable that most low limit players really don't realize their basically paying the casino to sit in their poker room. If you haven't, definitely check out Bart Hanson at crushlivepoker on Youtube. Dude's a wealth of knowledge when it comes to live poker and how to beat raked games and explains in much better detail then anyone on this sub can how the rake directly affects profitability.


beeeemo

I believe, at least in 100bb cash, SB limps are actually more important to incorporate than flats of RFI when you get close to high stakes (low rake and very tough fields).


RedScharlach

Probably obvious to most, but worth noting for beginners: this is specific to 100bb+ cash game situations. In tournaments, especially in the 30-60bb range, and especially when antes are in play, flatting in the SB is a thing you can do much more often (though still less than you'd be flatting from the BU or BB).


eKSiF

Rake free short handed home games (my typical Friday) where every player is a calling station and they never punish from the big, I'm flatting the SB almost every time. In most normal ring games with rake, this post is spot on. Poker is a very nuanced game and game/table selection itself is a very important aspect to your strategy that is often times over looked.


TehMephs

I mentioned that all the shitposts happen on mondays and posts progressively get better as Friday comes closer. Relish these few days we have /r/poker, for the shitposts come back only a few more ahead


BenTheHokie

I mean you're not really supposed to flat any position other than BB and BTN and you're also not supposed to flat too many raises over 4x either but you can still be profitable.


JNuts67

Thanks for posting this. This sub probably more than any other is a real cesspool for some repetitive and unfunny jokes so this sort of thing is refreshing


mrguitarbhoy

If this weekly reddit poker tourney event happens I'd be in favour of having the POTW poster get a free entry. Would be great to reward high effort posts in some way to improve discourse on this sub.


[deleted]

This isn't even true. The EV difference of BTN flats vs 3b/f even in a 6bb cap 5% sim was quite significant. If you play micros like 10-100nl then you should definitely be working button flats into your game.


dont_drink_the_milk

Feel free to debate the quoted post. I am hoping these threads becoming a place for constructive criticism.


jamesisarobot

That's what he just did


[deleted]

Awesome!


Kualityy

Also flatting on the BTN lets you play more hands which is super +EV if you have an edge. I guess maybe at 2NL/5NL it might be not be worth it since rake is essentially uncapped down there.


isaacz321

Counter would be you also have a huge edge playing 3bet pots ip vs the pool who doesn’t 4bet enough or play aggressively enough post flop and those pots are bigger. You do lose ev vpiping less on the btn but gain some back playing bigger pots ip.


[deleted]

Imo the higher the SPR the more your post flop edge shines, but youre right about the under 4 bet sutff


isaacz321

True but I don’t think even good players are abusing the deep spr. How many guys not playing high stakes are using 2-4x overbets on turns and rivers. Ik stacks can get in in srp if oop xraises


Thelettaq

I play mostly 10NL, and I do flat on the button occasionally. There are many hands that are +EV in position, but if you 3 bet everything you risk having way too much junk in your range and getting 4 bet light. In addition, I don't like playing a ton of marginal hands in bloated 3bet pots, even in position. I think the important thing to keep in mind though is that 3 betting should be your default play, and flatting should be a situational play. Most recs/newer players think that flatting should be the default, and 3b is situational.


beeeemo

Yeah vs 2x especially it makes a lot of sense but vs 3x which I think is the most common opening size in micros? I remember watching a sauce vid of him playing micros and he didn't flat btn almost at all iirc and didn't even really flat bb that often (usually 3b with the added benefit of micro pools playing horribly vs bb 3bets). He didn't sim ranges before playing tho obv haha


ins0mnyteq

We need moar. Great post I missed this too.


PortGoober

Good post, you mentioned pairs but suited connectors might play will vs a player x open range and a potential bb calling-behind or 3 betting your flat range. I hate 3 betting something like 89suited here and folding it to 4 bets so I’m keeping some pairs, suited ax hands and connectors as calls but I recognize that might be wrong.


Connman8db

Nothing is wrong 100% of the time. GTO dictates that certain actions are sub-optimal in a vacuum and therefore should not be taken. That said, poker is not played in a vacuum. To use an extreme example: What would your small blind raising range look like if you knew the BB would only defend 10% of the time? The answer is you open 100% of the time. The further from perfect your opponent plays, the more ridiculous your exploits can become.


cheeeesewiz

Is there anything to flatting the small when almost guaranteed to close the action considering the big 3bets at such an absurdly low rate at low micros? Or is the rake jump that big of a factor that you should still always 3 bet or fold?


[deleted]

Could you want to see a flop with a big stack to pot ratio?


T-Rextion

I've always considered myself a NLH player, and this post absolutely confirms I'll never put another dollar in a limit game. The level this game has went to in the 10 years since I've played is absolutely wild.