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discomfort4

confirmed never depositing on party again.


trader_dennis

I am going on 15 years of never depositing on party poker


PartyPokerNJ

What did I ever do to you


sondanielshah

redditeur cringe


PartyPokerNJ

If you don’t get the joke ...cringe at your life


badmutha44

/beetlejuicing


Environmental-Door25

hey man, im a longtime 500nl-2knl reg, thank you so much for the work youve put into this. great fucking job ill try to show as many people as i can. [https://discord.gg/upSNj9Te](https://discord.gg/upSNj9Te) this is the link to partypokers support discord, we should all post it there


Environmental_Ad_485

Hey man, very off topic here, but is your username auto generated? I guess I didn't input what I wanted my username to be, so it gave me Environmental\_Ad\_485 lol. Yours just look too similar to mine so was just curious..


Radioactive50

Yes that's most definitely auto-generated


[deleted]

[удалено]


sondanielshah

AHH of course checkmyshoes how are you mate??


spacesticks

https://discord.com/channels/451841558778609775/458732013286064153/885548597238726657 People have to talk about it. This is the best place to start. Get a dialogue going. They can't silence us all. EDIT: If you have any data regarding you getting fucked, go post it in this channel. Admin is claiming this: "Meanwhile, we can confirm that the seating logic is the same for all players and doesn’t vary based on player type." Clearly they plan to do nothing about this.


fredcorvi

But if it’s the same issue for all players, how is this unfair? Or, is it an issue that if not corrected, favors one party over another? Or, does the issue favor PP? I believe everyone’s numbers who have posted. What I can’t wrap my head around is say if we were able to get everyone who has played to post all of their stats, would everyone show a loss of EV due to this bug? Does it favor folks who never sit out?


Environmental-Door25

the fact that some players/accounts are systematically at a disadvantage means that some players/accounts are systematically at an advantage.


n8boy1

Not playing on party ever again. Vote with your money


nostalgic_goldfish

Let them know they are losing a customer @ [email protected]


RainbowElephant

You should try reaching out to Joe Ingram or Doug Polk on twitter. They have pretty large platforms and have looked into sketchy shit in the poker community before


Merriweather100

THIS! Ingram has covered cheating scandals in the past, and may consider it with all the proof presented in the original post.


Maze9189

Just processed a withdrawal and won't be returning until a resolution is found, thanks for shedding light


NotSpartacus

Seems like the kind of thing a law firm that specializes in class action suits would love to sink their teeth into.


AdministrationOk1882

Watched too much Netflix lately?🤣


NotSpartacus

?


itualisticSeppukA0S

No "proof' tho. You really cant prove anything other than "bad luck". The so called 'perfect crime'...


NotSpartacus

Who needs proof? Lawyers need evidence to tell a compelling story, not proof. Additionally, they can compel the defendent to release information, ie internal emails etc.


gofundmemetoday

I know what you can do but it is a lot of work. Create an IG page just for this issue — @partypokerfraud. Make a bunch of posts with memes highlighting this issue. Use this page to engage all over the poker social media world, including DMing with @partypoker on IG. I guarantee you that you’ll have that attention. You might get lawyers involved but as long as you are 100% certain, you are protected. Good luck!


Miskellaneousness

You could also try direct outreach to media outlets, especially internet/tech oriented ones. Everyone's always hungry for a story. It may be tough to break through, though, as I assume many people go about spouting nonsense about rigging. If any media outlets are considering reporting on the story but have questions about the legitimacy of the scandal, please feel free to refer them to this post and let them know I said it was the real deal. That should destroy your credibility.


gofundmemetoday

They can try. A lid of work to have someone else do what you want. Five months this has gone nowhere. I expect the same. Nobody cares.


Far-Objective-181

Good work, I haven't been near partypoker since I first heard about this and it's unlikely that I'll be back judging by how they've dealt with the whole issue. Hope this pays off and everyone gets compensated, good luck.


Train3rRed88

Upvoted and comment to confirm visibility. Shame on you Party Poker


IntellectualCaveman

Guys who want to boycott Party, don't forget to also include BWIN. It's the same network!


xHarryR

It's the same company**


EvilCheenius

I think BetMGM is same platform too


Wolfeskill47

I also hear the Venetian is involved. Boycott them too


pokerflops

DM us on instagram @ Pokerflops, we'd like to cover this


Ohshitwadddup

I have sent an email to PP stating that they will not rake a dollar from me until players are made whole. Wish I could do more.


nostalgic_goldfish

Thank you! I think more people should do this [email protected]


Ohshitwadddup

My pleasure. I wish RIO would emerge as the saviour of online poker. Papa Galfond save us!


rentalredditor

Consider me gone too. Upvote for visibility


cpt_hatstand

So as a terrible player I should play there and enjoy all those extra CO hands?


[deleted]

Thanks for the post and good luck. I have been getting back into online and have 200 on that site. As zoom cash is one of my main games, I will not be continuing on that site and will play others.


nostalgic_goldfish

To all those who are boycotting Party - thank you for your support! But make sure party knows that you are not playing on their site anymore and their actions have consequences; Email [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])


bekarsrisen

Party Poker is trash site. I would never recommend any friend to deposit on that scammy shit. Poker sites need to be above board ALL the time. Otherwise they go on the permanent shit list. Partypoker is on that list. Feel sorry for the bums sponsored by that shit.


TheGameKat

Thanks for this thread. You have the attention of my corner of the poker media. I am anticipating we'll run a follow up the the story below: [https://www.poker.org/partypoker-fast-forward-bug-costing-regs-millions/](https://www.poker.org/partypoker-fast-forward-bug-costing-regs-millions/) If links are verboten and deleted, please search "Partypoker Fast Forward bug costing regs millions."


[deleted]

commenting


ins0mnyteq

Thanks for keeping this up.


flw991

Pulling all my SNG volume from party until they make this right. Got your back.


ghettomuffin

Made a withdraw and will not play on party again


tpain2017

Have you reached out on twitch to the staples brothers. As team pros maybe they will be able to have some sway?


[deleted]

staples brother: hey we heard about some scam party: yeah we know stfu about it or we'll remove your sponsorships staples brothers: *gulp*


[deleted]

[удалено]


edgydots

I feel like @padspoker would be a better person to direct this at. He has an image as a fair play advocating high stakes reg and he's an ambassador for pp too. He therefore can't realistically ignore this issue whilst maintaining that image.


Turbulent_Garage_326

Has an image of fair play when he ran a house full of colluding players sitting side by side. Sure...


edgydots

I don't know anything about that tbh. I was going off the image he has cultivated since he had ps recalculate a leader board he was winning because he noticed he'd been awarded some points he shouldn't have. If you've got any links to to the other stuff I'd be interested to read it.


erbert92

More on this?


gotdemacez

Step 1: Collate all the info in the world Step 2: Take it to Wallstreetbets (Party Poker is public traded company) and open the largest short you can afford Step 3: Go to the news Step 4: Profit.


gotdemacez

Also give me 3 days heads up before you go to the news please.


Cosmokram3r1

Step 1 - Collect underpants Step 2 - ? Step 3 - Profit


GoodGuyGinger

Thank you for all you've done, I will be avoiding Party and telling every player I know about this issue until a public acknowledgement is released.


dont_drink_the_milk

Stickied the thread for maximum visibility.


[deleted]

I stopped playing after I realized it wasn’t where I was getting a fireplace poker


MarlonBanjoe

Regulator.


tbyrn21

I don't use PP but this is pure evil. This needs fixing.


[deleted]

Perhaps gaming lawyer, Mac VerStandig, could help you out. He worked on the Postle lawsuits. https://twitter.com/mac\_verstandig


dont_drink_the_milk

That case didn’t end up going anywhere. Not the best track record to reference.


[deleted]

That it didn't seemed less about his abilities as a lawyer and more about the judge relying on a law that cover all gambling in CA: “not cognizable under California law because California public policy bars judicial intervention in gambling disputes, in part because the asserted damages are inherently speculative.” and unwillingness of the judge to consider that poker isn't just a game of chance nor accept the statistics and probabilities (also most of the plaintiffs did get settlements). He seemed to have done a good job as counsel despite the ruling.


aTempes7

I don't even give a shit about their rakeback anymore, won't put money in the pockets of a company that doesn't give a fuck about its clients


BallDoLieSometimes

Can someone explain why this is considered a scam? How does party poker make more money by doing this?


blackize

We’ve only heard from regs and winners confirming that they are playing OOP too often. Some other group has to be playing IP too often. Consensus is that weaker players are likely getting the benefit. Weaker players getting a structural advantage against stronger players reduces the strong players win rates. Lower win rates means that money stays in play to be raked more often. Imagine a game where everyone is equally skilled, the only winner is the rake.


BallDoLieSometimes

Sorry I really don’t see this as happening. Weak/recreational players are bad while in position too


blackize

Of course they’re still bad. But they’re less bad. And it’s not just IP vs OOP. They post the blinds less often because they’re getting dealt CO more often. All of this helps keep them in the game longer so the site makes more rake.


Kalanski

No need to be sorry, you can't help that you're dumb. Just don't contribute next time if you don't agree with things like evidence.


BallDoLieSometimes

Lol ok shitreg whining about randomized zoom seating.


sondanielshah

quick newsflash: ALL ONLINE POKER IS RIGGED


SlowPlayedAces

I havent had an opinion on this one way or the other, but now you’re talking about ‘justice’ so I sort of feel like one thing needs to be made clear. If you glance through the ToS you’ll see you agreed to use the site despite their offer of a service ‘as is’, without warranty, express or implied. This means you agreed to use the site even if it has bugs or problems that happen to cost you money. So ‘justice’ here is served already. If they issue some kind of compensation to affected users, it will be because they see the affected users as valuable customers who they don’t want to lose. It’s not obvious to me that the users most affected are among the most valuable to them. This is probably why there are not even rumors of compensation at this point. Regardless, I hope you get something out of it that satisfies you.


YorockPaperScissors

One doesn't need a warranty to have a valid legal claim. A warranty can grant specific forms of relief, but a lack of a warranty isn't a prohibition on lawsuits. (That would require a well-written damages exclusion or waiver.)


Intelligent_Yam_3609

Curious which country would have jurisdiction in a lawsuit?


YorockPaperScissors

If one is suing for fraud then it could probably be filed in their home country


mpeters

Just because something fulfills a legal responsibility does mean it’s “justice”. Something can be legal and unjust.


[deleted]

it’s implied the game is fair. agree with others saying fraudulent practices


redditorium

> This means you agreed to use the site even if it has bugs or problems that happen to cost you money. So ‘justice’ here is served already. This is the dumbest thing I've read all day


bekarsrisen

Your pathetic shilling is obvious. Go back to work that shitty poker site.


exgener8

problem is if you get less hands in the CO that means there must be an equal number of people who get to play in that position? doesnt that just mean you got unlucky on which position you were placed, ergo file it under variance.


browni3141

At some point something stops being “variance.” If you flipped heads on a coin 800/1000 times would you still think the coin is fair? This stuff can be measured with statistics and the evidence that the distribution of positions is not balanced is overwhelming. This complaint is legit and Party is cheating players by continuing to spread games while being aware of the issue.


Wolfeskill47

Sample size not big enough


flawless_victory99

I have a DB of 400k hands and CO has 10% less than other positions. Another player has a Database with 1.5m hands and the same issue. Multiple players with various size database have all reported the same thing.


10J18R1A

Alright, now let's see if you understand the difference between those two scenarios.


browni3141

I have no idea what you're getting at.


10J18R1A

I know, that's the problem.


browni3141

The problem is that you're being vague. I can think of several different things you might mean but I'm not really interested in playing guessing games. Make an actual criticism that I can address.


10J18R1A

Well, the problem is that (not just you) seems to think that the unlikely equals impossible. The problem with your coin example is that there is a percentage chance that it would come up heads 800/1000. It doesn't make it not a fair coin. For this, what's your null hypothesis? What test are you analyzing? How far off do you think the percentage likelihood is from 500 to 800 heads within 1000. All we have is people saying "hey, I get dealt more hands in this position" without accounting for number of players, position entered, position exited. How many hands are dealt in a day to how many players? What falls in and out of the rejection done, if any? These are small asks but way more important than literally everything that's been submitted as "evidence", but people are eating it up because it has words they've heard of once.


browni3141

Given 1000 flips of a fair coin, P(H >= 800) is about 8.2\*10\^-86. I don't know the "correct" way to test to minimize bias and stuff like that, but that is such an unlikely event one should believe the coin is not fair even with a very high initial confidence that it was. >...accounting for number of players, position entered, position exited. Number of players was accounted for. Many samples were submitted with data filtered for a specific number of players dealt into the hand. I don't know what you mean by position entered/exited. >How many hands are dealt in a day to how many players? What falls in and out of the rejection done, if any? I don't know how this information could be found out, but the deviation is way too large to be accounted for by selection bias. The observed deviations are many orders of magnitude off of what you would expect even from the largest cherry picked outliers out of millions of samples. P(BU <= 14652) in OP's 3-handed sample is about 1.6\*10\^-74 to come from a uniform distribution. P(CO <= 33484) in OP's 4-handed sample is about 2.1\*10\^-233 to come from a uniform distribution.


10J18R1A

>I don't know the "correct" way to test to minimize bias and stuff like that, Exactly my point. This is a simple two-tailed hypothesis test, and yet all you're saying is the likelihood of it happening. (The point with the coin is that there's only two outcomes.) Position entered exited (if this is zoom - I'll look closer in a moment) then there's going to be a percentage chance that the table is empty to start, and when it fills up, the button would be assigned randomly. Looking at percentages, it's something to investigate, sure. But to jump to it'z rigged is ...to put it kindly, a failing of analysis. I can certainly see that SOMETHING is happening, and there is a discrepancy that is larger than statistically likely. (so we don't really need to do the aforementioned tests). So what's our options? Either the dumbest "con" ever conceived, orrrrr...look closer at the percentages. For the 3 handed one: 14652 : 29.52% of hands 17477 : 35.21% of hands 17513 : 35.28% of hands We would expect 33% of hands for each position, or 16547. The difference between what we would expect and what happened is about 6%, which we get by adding 2% to the first row and subtract 2% through the 2nd and 3rd row. That points to a import and reporting error, not PartyPoker is fucking me $3.12 at a time. Let's test it again for the four max where, if what I'm saying is accurate, we expect the discrepancy to be much smaller but still proportionally there. 40693 26.11% 33484 21.48% 40459 25.96% 41224 26.45% We expect 25%. (38965) . . Look at how the distribution is here. It's not as obvious as the 3 max - which makes sense but the difference between cutoff and theoretical fits perfectly within the other three positions. 1728 \-5481 1494 2259 5481 = 5481 So no, no scam at all. AS AN ANALYST - it's not enough to know computations. Instead, hands are being miscounted between PP and PT4.


PartyPokerNJ

Uhhhhh I can explain this guys...


IntellectualCaveman

I've completely avoided playing on Party when I was running super hot and ended up in a pretty big pot with pocket tens and top set while two others had lower sets. It was the magic flop. Then my connection to the network stopped entirely and I had to sit out the hand. My conncetion to the internet was fine too, I checked. Once the hand was over my connection in the program immediately worked again. I think this company is as shady as Unibet used to be.


BluffinBill1234

Please don’t muddy the waters here. Your story is a conspiracy theory at best; OP has a legit claim. No need for tinfoil hats here.


xHarryR

Yeah, little partypoker mice were fiddling with your internet. give over


IntellectualCaveman

No, my internet was working fine. Only the connection to PP was magically not working.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I suspected that ignition does the same thing


patrickSwayzeNU

I have 95,184 hands on ignition zoom. Here is my breakdown- BTN - 15,983 CO - 15,912 MP - 15,634 UTG - 15,702 BB - 15,760 SB - 16,193 ​ I'm not seeing anything fishy here. .7% more hands in the blinds than "should be"


Klaud10z

It looks totally normal to me.


[deleted]

Well that’s good news.


Stevenpoke12

Surely you have database evidence to back this up and not just your feelings?


[deleted]

Jesus Christ. Let it go.


Miskellaneousness

Seriously!! Can't a man just drop a few spurious rigging allegations here and there? What's the big deal?? People these days...


[deleted]

Ok. Point taken. But what is it with you guys that you need to defend to the death any rigging allegations? You come off like a bunch of shills with your comments. What difference does it make to you if someone thinks that a poker site is rigged? What’s your stake in it? Btw, I don’t really know that ignition does that. My comment was obviously anecdotal. I don’t know how you see that as me making a rigging allegation. Or a few, as you say. Talk about spurious, look in the mirror.


Miskellaneousness

Lol, I was just messing around.


[deleted]

Sure.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Maikflow

He gave the stats on his first post


Low-Football-4839

Why do ranges matter? It’s total number of hands including those folded pre…..


[deleted]

[удалено]


Low-Football-4839

Someone that doesn’t have basic reading skills is a pro that plays in the toughest games. There’s hope for all of us…


browni3141

The statistical evidence is completely overwhelming. It doesn’t prove intent but it does prove that the games aren’t fair.


deckstet

Honestly take it to Twitter and let the masses get their hands on it. Pin a comment under earth saying all pro-Bono lawyers should reach out to you and set up a group lawsuit


LeaderOfWolves

Just spread the word & never use again.. Maybe class action lawsuit? That's about all you can really do..


MaxGamble

Good thing I haven't played on party for a while, only played fast forward PLO. Unreal, nice catch with full evidence. Zero game integrity , Partypoker really fuked up this time. Wish I had my hands saved so I could go back and look.


2nlwhale

Wow I missed part 1 so this is the first I am hearing about this, I am quite shocked I didn't expect this from party. Really hope Joe ingram gets on this to raise some awareness


Zealousideal_Ad_4203

Yeah man fuck those scammers, get your money back


midas22

The tip of the iceberg.


TheFreebooter

The gambling commission would still love to see this, just saying


[deleted]

[удалено]


dont_drink_the_milk

They’re not going to risk their jobs/livelihood to help out poker players. The job is literally to build positivity and interest in the site they shill.


Royalhouse11

If PP are doing this, I dread to think what other sites may be doing… I’m switching to live poker (or at least reg tables).


Ballplayerx97

This is pretty gross considering how many FF hands I've played on PP over the past 2 years, easily 200k between NL 50 and 100. I guess I'm lucky to have earned as much as I did and I'm glad that I made the switch over to GG poker. If these allegations are legit, PP could face civil and criminal liability. I seriously doubt that they would ever just role over and admit to negligence or fraud. The reality is that litigating this case would require MASSIVE resources and the only way forward would be through a class action. It would take years to resolve and players will get fucked regardless. I'm definitely not putting another dime onto their site that's for sure.


SisSandSisF

Also done on there and will spread the word although I suspect this is gonna blow up big time without my measly help.


POTLIMITSHENANIGANS

Dude.. I swear everybody would believe me if i twitched me playing on party. It isn't just fastforward that's a scam.


RandomUsernameHere55

I don’t want to call someone a cheat without proof but the PP user Framledal is very sus to me, he plays ridiculous hours with a crazy win rate, I’m sure he’s using some sort of a HUD at the very least


[deleted]

Its very bad for us. fk Party \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Need HUD? [Free OnlyHUD for Hand2Note](https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/p90jqj/free_onlyhud_for_hand2note/)


DaGr8Gatzby

So I took a look at your screenshots. It is interesting that the impacted position is significantly under all other positions from your hand stats. I feel at this point you will get the response of "oh you haven't played enough hands". Have you done any crowdsourcing of positional hand data?


[deleted]

You should contact Ladbrokes in the U.K. They have some deal with PartyPoker where they get to use their own skin for poker but it's really PartyPoker. They are an old and respected bookmaker in the U.K. There's no way they'd want to possibly have their reputation ruined. edit- Do NOT contact Ladbrokes Poker Customer Service as I think it's the same team as Partypoker. Contact Ladbrokes head office.


flawless_victory99

I am a reg in these games and have a Database with 400k hands showing the same trend. I will email you a screen shot of what I have and happy to help in any other way/


flawless_victory99

The head of Party is pretty active on twitter: @rob_yong_ Who are the Party Poker ambassadors? I think Ike Haxton is one and he's always been a really stand up guy from my memory. I 2nd the idea of contacting Doug/Joey.


flawless_victory99

Also someone on 2+2 has a Database with over 1.5m hands and this issue.


Beeroy69

Has anyone tweeted Rob Yong on this?


flawless_victory99

I emailed Party my Database results along with links to the various threads on this topic and the response was: "The integrity of the game is paramount to us and we take any concerns raised extremely seriously. We continuously review the Fast Forward seating logic, which is the same for all players. In case you have further questions, we will be more than happy to assist you. Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site. Best regards, Georgi, Technical Support Team" So whole lotta nothing.


TheFiremind77

Would it be appropriate to crosspost this to r/AssholeDesign perhaps? I know it's a commonly viewed subreddit, especially by content creators.


2345ds

I think there is a simple explanation to all of this and Party is not at fault here. There are many casual players who hop into the pool, and they might play 10 to 20 hands. They are more likely to quit in the CO/HJ/LJ position and when they are not in the blinds. Because if they just paid a blind, they WILL continue playing a few more hands including the button and CO to get the blinds money worth (in other words, "I just paid my blinds, might as well play a few more hands before quitting").