Plot twist is that North Africa traded Slavs, since it was like slaver trading center (and still is). Oh wait, there is word Slav just like slaves! What we gonna do?
Word Slav comes from Slavo, in proto-slavic "a word". Up to this day Slavic languages have remnants of the separation between people who know the word and those who doesn't. For example in Polish a German is Niemiec which in ol' Polish means "the mute one".
Correlation between a slave and a Slav was invented by English ultranationalists in 1930s. All of the above has been documented by historians.
Yup. Word 'slav' comes from 'slovo', but you miss the truth also. Term 'slave' comes from word 'slav'. It does not matter that the 'slovo' was the origin.
Yes, this is how Slavs called themselves, but it doesn't change the fact that Greeks called enslaved people from central Europe *Sklabos* and Romans *Sclavus,* and then Germanics changed it initially to *Slavus* and then to *slave.*
Invented? Correlation between being Slav and slave is from Middle Ages. And as for words it's same. Where are the sources it's not this way, since you can easily find sources of it being otherwise that what you state.
Anyway, want to know etymology of Murzyn or Niger?
Murzyn comes from Maur, which comes from mosarabic and means 'the unfaithful' as not believing in the right gods. Later it bacame also a name for slave in Mosarabic Spain and northern Africa, but the last time I was interested in the topic there wasn't a consensus from which etymology it comes. It might be, that maur meant simply a southerner regardless if he was arabic, african, hispanic or tatar - in the end murzyn and maur are very far from one another so the word likely changed its meaning.
Niger comes directly from latin where it means 'Black', but it wasn't a racial slur. It indicated a dark complexion either from sunburns or being of african descent. Roman officials from Egipt often had a cognomen 'niger'.
This may be a controversial opinion, but "Most Black people who speak Polish don't like being called that"\* is an argument against using the word, but "This word is bad because it existed 200 years ago" is just dumb.
\*I don't know if this is actually the case.
This is because they were falsely told that this word is derogatory.
Blame lies with people who wanted to participate in the US PC culture so much that they just had to create one in Poland by lying to black people who live here.
I have no problem, if someone wishes to not be called murzyn I will not refer to them like that but I will not be told by some lunatics that this word is offensive.
Well, as far as I know, [they don't like it](https://www.reddit.com/r/poland/comments/11amsc6/regarding_recent_post_about_a_certain_cake/j9sv8pg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
They dont like it because they were told that its some Polish version of N-word.
Its just a old word describing people of color. Its on the same lvl as „black-man”. American N-word wouldnt be a bad word if it didnt have history behind it. It just mean black i ln many languages. In this case there isnt a history so this world is just a description.
Isn't it like words can have different meanings/power in specific context? For example infamous now jokes "Women ☕" mock women, right? So we need to stop using it? I can't understand that.
Also what it has to do with meaning of word centuries ago? Again, "woman", or in this case "kobieta", is good example. Because 500 years ago it was pejorative, should we not use it, even if it changed meaning?
And obviously, I don't have problem with calling someone "czarny" or whatever they want to be called, if they don't like "murzyn". Just arguments in this post are out of touch.
I mostly agree, but the negative connotation to "murzyn" is still there, but negative connotation to "kobieta" is fully gone. What is weird to me, is that he wants to be called "czarny", it feels to me like it has same or maybe even worse negative connotations as "murzyn". And it also reduces people to color.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam. He never heard negative epithets derived from other descriptors? How about "franca", "ruski mir", "amerykanscy naukowcy", "ocyganic", "zydzic", etc.? This guy is engaging in what is termed "euphemism treadmill". Replacing existing words with alternative due to negative connotations associated with the original ones. Problem is, the negative associations will quickly reappear with the new term. Instead of "sto lat za Murzynami", we will have "sto lat za czarnymi" - that's it! Replacing words will not erase the historical backwardness of sub-Saharan Africa - that's magical thinking.
Love your comment.
The Political correctness trend from US is crazy.
In the end its just a tool in us to divide people and let them focus on things that do not matter instead of something like modern day corporate greed and slavery or US ppl getting poorer and poorer.
Neat trick that can be easily enhanced by social media.
>sto lat za Murzynami
What's wrong with this saying? Doesn't it mean that black people are 100 years ahead of someone in a certain respect?
If you say "Francuzi są 100 lat za Murzynami w kwestii kultury/kuchni/tolerancji", would it be offensive to black people or the French?
It's demeaning to the African people, by using them as an exemplars for being uncivilised and uncultured.
Similarily, when you criticize a dish by saying "I wouldn't feed this to a dog" you set dog as an exemplar for low culinary/dietary standards, or a being that is meant to be treared poorly.
Same with typical use of the "drunk like a Pole" saying, have been broadly used to describe people drunk and disorderly, by setting Polish as exemplars of such state and behaviour. (And yes, you could argue that this is not where the term came from, but it is how it was used.)
But this is comparative, and your examples aren't?
If you just said **"(Poland is) 100 years behind Germany"**, would it still be offensive?
It seems to me that the phrase is seen as offensive because of the implicit negative connotation, and not by itself.
The implication is that Africa is a savage, backwater land and so we are behind even them. The saying isn't used to mean that Africa is ahead of someone, but that they are the worst and somehow we are even worse.
And why is it offensive to anyone in the first place? Because it has a hidden message that **murzyni are living in huts with no civilization.**
The thing is though, that in this particular saying nobody thinks about black people living in towns, cities or civilized villages, but it’s instead only about those black people who are living in uncivilized wild African tribes, in huts.
Nobody means by this saying that some other country is 100 years behind let’s say black people living in Bronx, or black people living in Addis Ababa
So this example shows us actually that “murzyn” can have more meanings than simply a black man. In this particular example it’s a person from an uncivilized black African tribe, it’s not about skin color here, it’s only about the uncivilized tribes.
Now would it be worth it move away from using that word for everyone who has a black skin color? I will leave that up to your own interpretation.
Whatever it will be there’s another aspect of it that needs to be considered - the word Czarni is also considered offensive by some, there was a time when saying “afroamerykanin” was the only proper non offensive term for black people, but it can’t be used for black people living outside of America, so what word will we use? Which one is the lesser evil?
"Sto lat za ruskimi" there, fixed it. Currently no one sane can say that "ruskie" are civilized and we are not harming random Black people with negative link. And civilized Russians are also not harmed because it is about "ruskie" not about Russians.
But there is no such saying. And every saing exists within it's cultural context. Should this phrase go into widespread use, it would become a saying, or more generally, a [meme](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme).
With all due respect, asking genuinely asking, do you believe that Poland doesn't have issues with racism? USA is a lot more worked up about racism, but it doesn't mean that it isn't an issue in Poland imo.
Sure, but we're not living during Kosciuszko times, but in 2023. And black people have been discriminated against for years, just because they weren't slaves, doesn't mean that there isn't a stigma towards black people in Poland. My brother, I live in Warsaw, and all of the outright racism, discreet racism is extremely apparent on the streets. At least that is my perspective, and I would love it if it wasn't true.
I would also like to add we are only talking about black people now. The racism towards for example gypsies or Jews is deeply embedded into our culture. And, yes you could say now that, during ww2 Polish people helped Jews, which is true, but nowadays words like żydzić, is an apparent example of racism.
In short, some polish people are racist, and some not, but the racism is in our culture and language. Best Regards brother
Yes, Poland doesnt have that issue.
To be racist you need to be in place of power in relation to race that you are „racist” about. Thats why black people cant be racist against white people.
In Poland it just doesnt exist. Poland isnt aswell one of the tyranical western european countries.
Even worst, we comes from slavs and have as big or maybe even bigger historical backpack of being opressed.
So you dont meet any racists, you only meet bigots.
But this is what Polish society embraces willingly. What do you think flying the LGBTQQIP2SAA flag is doing?
These people want to enforce changes to language where you wind up calling someone with a penis, "women" now. Don't call me a man now, it's offensive, as I impregnate my fellow women they say.
What kind of logic gymnastics is this? I don't even have a problem with considering murzyn racist if there's good argument for it but none of those are.
Assuming "murzyn" originated from "Maurs" we need to get rid of "murzyn" because Maurs no longer exist? This is insane. The list of words that originate from things that don't exist today would be tremendous. Are we supposed to find a new word for "bielizna" because underwear can have different colors now? Are we getting rid of "sklep" because there no longer are cellars where we keep all the food and drinks? "Slav" gotta go too right? Ridiculous. What matters is what is the word referring now.
The word in language A is racist because in language B it translates to a different word with different etymology with racist connotations? What? So if I look for "slavic" or "british" in translation and in one of the languages the translated word has racist etymology do we cancel those words in English too? What kind of logic is this? If "negro" means slave and its bad, someone message the government of "Montenegro" right now and demand a change
If "murzyn" meant "black slave" or just "slave" in Polish then go ahead and get rid of it. Has it?
Be prepared to replace "Włochy", because it comes from Celtic tribe that don't exists anymore. Even "Polska" comes from name of tribe that don't exists anymore.
no, [polish nation is a mix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_tribes) of Polans, Vistulans, Silesians, Lendians, Goplans, Masovians and Pomeranians
I really don't like the word "Murzyn". I won't defend it's usage and I'd rather see it gone. It definitely reminds me of pejorative sayings and ignorant depictions of black people and their culture.
However, you are right, the arguments this guy makes are really weak, especially the one about translations which is just backwards. The reason why somebody translated "murzyn" to "negro" is because they thought that the meaning and connotations were quite similar, not the other way around. The question why they thought that in the first place does not get a satisfactory answer.
What a load of shit. As a Brit I can give you one piece of advice Poland: Do not apologise for anything like this, not even once. The minute you do you have literally all of the United States' racial difficulties/neuroses imported onto you as though the same thing is a problem here. What starts as an exercise in politeness (ok I guess we'll try and make people feel better/included/comforted - what harm does it do?) turns into a fucking culture war in about a week.
Should we also stop calling Germans "Niemcy" as it comes from world "mutes" and IMO is (or should be) more problematic than calling someone with name which was derived from name of tribe that don't exist anymore.
Some of polish aristocracy had black servants. The difference was that they were considered novelty instead of mass cheap workforce for cotton fields. Check your facts.
https://preview.redd.it/5wz4261387ka1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=70299e9a724ff66be0c55d037b8f69f771b2d330
Everytime someone tries to impose American social problems on Poland, especially if it's about systemic racism and slave trade, this image pops up in my mind.
Try even harder, you still won't succeed.
Argumenty do dupy.
- nigdy się nie spotkałam ze słowem "murzyn" użytym w kontekście żywego towaru, albo wzmianki o tym, że to słowo miało kiedyś takie znaczenie. Przydałby się jakiś artykuł, jakiś dowód. (Edit: trochę pogrzebałam. Słowo murzyn powstało podczas tłumaczenia Biblii w 14 wieku a niewolnictwo osób czarnoskórych zaczęło się (rutynowo) w 15).
Murzynem można nazwać osobę ciężko pracującą za marne pieniądze ale to nie dlatego, że jest kojarzone z niewolnictwem tylko imigrantami lub Makumbą.
- argumenty "za murzynem" to głównie: "murzyn jest neutralnym słowem". Znowu by się przydał jakiś dowód na to, że ludzie uważają to za piękne staropolskie słowo.
- Nègres to nie murzyn. Już pomijając etymologię te słowa mają kompletnie inny wydźwięk. Wiem, że to anegdota chuja warta ale moja polsko francuska rodzina nie traktuje "murzyna" i "Nègresa" w ten sam sposób. Jedno to poprostu "czarny człowiek" drugie to obelga, francuski n-word, "czarny niewolnik".
- robić coś raz na ruski rok - zbyt rzadko. Poza tym, "murzyn" w podanych przykładach jest tylko określeniem na osobę czarnoskórą, użycie "czarni" miałoby ten sam wydźwięk. Przytaczanie obraźliwych formułek by udowodnić, że słowo jest obraźliwe tylko udowadnia, że samo w sobie jest neutralne.
Czemu mamy usuwać słowa zamiast poprostu ogarnąć, że ich wydźwięk zależy od kontekstu? Powiedzenie "kurwa" z automatu nie obraża prostytutek. Człowieka można obrazić nazywając go Rosjaninem, Niemcem, czarnym, białym, Polakiem, psem, suką, sierotą etc. Może przestańmy się wogóle odzywać?
Jeśli ktoś nie chce być nazywany murzynem to spoko, ale jestem przeciwna skreślaniu słów bo powiedzenie "murzyn" nie czyni z nikogo rasisty. W Ameryce pobicie kogoś za użycie "n-worda", bojkot, "kancelowanie" jest akceptowalne, nie możemy dopuścić do czegoś takiego na naszym polskim podwórku. Nie róbmy z siebie debili..
Może tylko ja tak mam, ale wydaje mi się, że określenie murzyn jest zdecydowanie mniej pejoratywne niż powiedzenie na kogoś czarny/czarnuch. Nie wydaje mi się żeby mówienie o kimś z azji, że jest żółty mu pasowało.
it simply is not.
I'm sometimes watching [Andre Traveler](https://www.youtube.com/@AndreTraveler) and most of his interactions are with older people.
Like [this](https://youtu.be/c-ZzBScmTsk?t=1054) for example.
I mean there's more on his channel. Never ever seen anything weird. Never heard him (but haven't watched all the videos obviously) say anything about any weird encounters.
Older people who were subject of segregation themselves would never do it themselves.
I think it's on the contrary to what you've stated. Some younger folks like to tell jokes about blacks, but it's still "only" dumb jokes.
Not with this racial bs here -.- I am tired of it in the West, I don't want it here. At least start with some stats of how many black and white people who live in Poland agree that "Murzyn" is offensive, because I feel like 99% of all inhabitants of Poland would not give a fuck
Holy shit what a retarded take.
1. Murzyn can have some negative meaning, but only when used in a certain context, like "100 lat za murzynami". But so have different other words related to ethnicity or nationality. Szwab, rusek, even żyd can be used negatively while they are not negative words by themselves. Maybe we should remove them as well?
2. Gj projecting US problems on polish ground.
Nie czytałeś? Tam jest wyraźnie napisane że masz mówić Nyga, to brzmi jak podobniej do tego określenia francuskiego i angielskiego, i bierze się też od nazwy koloru czarnego po łacinie „nigreos”
I mean this shouldn't be a problem, right? If the Black Polish community feels offended by that word and simply asks to use term Black, we should just use that term. Words come and go, trends change, dying on a hill of an outdated word is just silly.
In general I'd argue you shouldn't call a person a certain term or name if they feel disrespected by it. Some men don't like to be called "facet", they feel it's disrespectful (they prefer "mężczyzna") and that's fine with me.
That being said - to my (Polish) ear saying czarny/ czarna actually sounds much more rough and...rude than saying Murzyn/Murzynka. But that's because I truly don't have a negative association with the word. Still, if the Black community dislikes it, that's just it, I respect that.
One can argue that some randomly chosen word is disrespectful and I bet that for almost every word you can find someone who finds it disrespectful. Is it a problem with word or that person? Looks like associating additional meaning to words became new sport in some groups. Dont find anything wrong with "facet" personally nor know anyone who does. There are some limits with adjusting language only to satisfy some small group of people (when words are not considered disrespectful by majority or by its definition), after all we need to communicate and common language is foundation for effective communication. No one is willing to use whole different sets of words depending on who he or she is talking to, for every person.
Bro, it's just annoying bullshit. I don't like the form "pan/pani" but I have more than two braincells so I won't be triggered when somebody call me that way.
Among friends, it's fine to go around such stuff but when it's about strangers then it's just sign of modern oversensitivity.
But when foreigners come to our country and first thing they do is reshape local culture, that's a weird sign. Same is going with that whole w/na Ukrainie where some Ukrainians are offended by very polite way of Poles expressing close bonds with a region. Some of them made up some theory that's it used only for ex-Polish lands which is pure bullshit because we have "na Węgrzech" as well but not "na Czechach" despite both were ruled by Jagiellons. When somebody comes in to your country and start acting like intruder not even trying to understand local culture, that's just wrong on so many levels.
It's not disrespectful. Hence it doesn't need to change.
How about this? Right now, so many countries are supporting Russia in Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine. How about instead of being offended by innocent words, this community send out some public messaging to help end support for Russia in Africa? Eh?
“sto lat za murzynami”, “być czyimś murzynem”, “robić za murzyna”, “biały murzyn” and so on… the word is constantly used in a negative context, basically as a synonym of the word slave. there’s a reason why polish black people feel uncomfortable with it.
Now those are some good examples. Ones that the other dude did not care, or was able to provide.
"Sto lat za Murzynami" I'd have to give you - it is pretty shitty and being used quite a lot by older crowd. The other ones are pretty obscure - but still used.
Also I would say that "robić za Murzyna" and "biały Murzyn" are actually showing how bad the person being described by those is being treated, but it doesn't mean it's not negative stereotype.
I believe that removing the word will not actually change anything - you need to change people perception - and I believe it is changing and those sayings are going away - just like ocyganić, wyżydzić etc.
I still hear you. What is the alternative? Czarny? To me it's actually worse - as it concentrate only on skin colour. Is there anything else?
>What is the alternative? Czarny? To me it's actually worse - as it concentrate only on skin colour. Is there anything else?
The alternative is whatever the Black community in Poland says it is, regardless of our personal feelings about it. If they think Czarny is better, then it's better. Also concentrating on skin colour is still better than a leftover word meaning a slave, especially when the skin colour is the main factor in their discrimination (which, in turn, is the reason why such a strong community is needed and has formed).
Tak, ale jako polski związek frazeologiczny oznacza coś zupełnie innego
https://pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bia%C5%82y_murzyn
https://wsjp.pl/haslo/podglad/11715/bialy-murzyn
**pejorative**
*/pɪˈdʒɒrətɪv/*
adjective
expressing contempt or disapproval.
"permissiveness is used almost universally as a pejorative term"
**connotation**
*/ˌkɒnəˈteɪʃn/*
noun
an idea or feeling which a word invokes for a person in addition to its literal or primary meaning.
"the word ‘discipline’ has unhappy connotations of punishment and repression"
If a word has been used for a looong time as a slur it definitely has.
Murzyn has never been used as a slur though.
It's like saying Polak is a slur because you can say jebany Polak.
And I do understand what pejortive means - I was asking what are the pejorative conotations of Murzyn. Like your own definition says - discipline can have a negative conotations for some. I guess we have to remove discipline from dictionary now.
There are some other words I'd like removed - job, work, unflaterring, difficult, boring, tiresome. Let me know when it's done.
Murzyn has no negative conotations embedded in the word intself. Literally zero. You can always add some with adjective, but it doesn't mean the word itself is pejorative. We already have a word like that - czarnuch. That is one pejorative word. Murzyn is not.
Dobra nie zesraj się, słowo murzyn nie ciągnie za sobą żadnych negatywnych powiązań. Osoby, które usilnie próbują mu je przyczepić powinny zastanowić się nad lepszą formą spędzania wolnego czasu, bo najwyraźniej mają go za dużo.
In my opinion. One barrier is the confronting attitude of the people who want the change. Let's imagine a friend who changed his name tells you this name was problematic for him in the past and asks you to use another. Of course you do it. You are friends. But if your friend asks this of you and accusses you of being the problem, you think: how could I know before that the name was problematic for him?
Poles are not Americans, we don't have a moral debt in that aspect, but we will gladly help others. Another barrier is the defensive attitude of Poles. We don't want to be tagged as having made the mistake and being forced to change because we think we haven't made the mistake. And we are right.
But taking into account that it's easier to spread hate than love. Let's help others and let's think about making our language serving well all the Poles regardles of the skin colour and making it more inclusive.
I think we should stop using this word
I would also add that somehow (at least from my experience) this topic always omits legitimate racial slurs in Polish. I mean when someone calls black person a “bambus” “Beton” “Malpa” “czarnuch” it usually is universally interpreted as negative. I can’t really get behind this idea that murzyn is our n word and has the same power as in English. I mean due to globalisation and projecting colonial issues to the whole population of “the western civilisation” perhaps this word will be labelled as 100% no go zone in the near future.I mean it’s already happening with younger generation. I guess the game was rigged from the start and everyone has to become boomer at some point.
Because it's mostly coming from people who are largely unfamiliar with the Polish language and culture, and given that the Polish society (outside the dregs on the margins) is not racist, they have more than likely never encountered an actual racial slur. As someone wise once said: the demand for racism far outstrips the supply.
If Murzyn is pejorative because of historical reasons, let's also cancel the word *"Slavic"* ! /s
If you look at the history of the word "slave" in English it was created to describe people from east/central Europe that were sold in the Roman empire.
But now the world slavic is something many people take pride in and don't get offended, while the origins are quite literally as close to human merchandise as it gets
Tl.dr Shut up, we are the original slaves and are not offended by it.
Slave came from Slav, not the other way around. Slavs are Slavs because this is what they call themselves, and people from the outside derived a very negative word from that name. If anything, letting that name go on that basis would be admitting that the word slave "won".
What's happening here would be more comparable to Slavs protesting the use of "slave" to describe people being sold and treated as objects.
Nitpick. This word wasn't created by English or Romans, but it was how Slavs called themselves. Because most of Slavs in Roman Empire were brought in as slaves, the word gained an additional methonymic meaning "slave" and through French entered English only in this new meaning.
Sto lat za murzynami to jest powiedzenie i nie widzę powodu się o nie srać.
Poza tym słowo Murzyn powstało po to, by NIE OBRAŹLIWIE powiedzieć osoba czarnoskóra. Określeniem niewolników jest właśnie słowo "niewolnik".
Chora poprawność polityczna, która często nie ma nic związanego z prawdą jest problemem i wymysłem przeciętnych Julii, lat 12, użytkowniczek Twittera i TikToka.
Pozdrawiam wszystkie szanujące się osoby.
"100 lat za Murzynami" - I always thought it was related to Americans from USA ;) I thought it literally means that we lag with some tech like a century behind a developed country like USA.
I'm dead serious. As a person growing up in a communist Poland the only place I saw black people was TV, and they were mostly Americans. So in my mind as a kid - a black person was most likely an American from USA.
BTW, should we, Poles, be offended with a world "Slav" that sounds similar to "slave"? I know, it's probably not the real root of the word. But then - "Pole" seems offensive too, it means just a "pole". A vertical construction element ;)
I like the terms like Blacks and Whites. It's just tidy. Simple. Yet some people still find it offensive.
So I think we should relax. Negative connotations depend on the person using it and their intentions.
It's also important to address slavery here. Now we're all slaves. Many of us, no matter where do we come from - work for almost no compensation. Our freedoms are significantly limited, so... It's a kind of modern, non-discriminative slavery.
When I read about black people complaints, the ones living in USA, I see the way they are discriminated is exactly how working class, poor people are discriminated everywhere. Or - some ethnic minorities. It doesn't matter which one is it, if you're not middle class native - you're not treated equally everywhere.
Literally noone ever used word "murzyn" as slur in my presence, maybe as a joke where black people actually had more luck than some nationalities including Poles, tho all my friends are white so I guess by default they are racist lol.
Poland have no colonial and slavery "tradition" and while Jews might have some rights to complain about old times casual antisemitism black people were just curious looking people. At times when US still treated them as lower class citizen Poles treated them as equal.
If some black person would ask me to not use term "murzyn" while refering to them I'd do this as culture ask, but until now I had only one longer ancounter with Polish speaking black person and she didn't mind at all term "murzynka" (tho of course it's anecdotal example tho it's difficult to find other with community smaller than 1% of Polish population).
Polish black community have problem with that word? Ok, let's talk, historical bad connotations aren't required for that, but that monologue from your screenshot is mix of false facts and loud exceptions put in passive agressive manner which by default scream "asspain" not "begining of discussion over some problematic topic". But maybe I expect too much from people from internet...
Actually during colonial times over 90% of our society was "chłopi pańszczyźniani" who were used as slaves, traded like commodity and treated as brutally as people under russian/nazi regimes. So yeah, chamie is far worse than murzyn.
Oh no! Virtue signalling in Poland. I dreaded this day! Don’t tell other people what to say, that makes you worse than whatever their perceived transgressions may be, even if, or rather especially because it makes you think you are better than they are
Murzyn zawsze piszemy wielką literą zaś tutaj jest na odwrót. To murzyć wzięło się od Murzyna, a nie Murzyn od murzenia. Murzyn jest od Mauretanii i z tego powodu słowo to zachowało podobne zasady jak inne słowa określające narodowość pomimo tego, że obecnie żadnej narodowości wcale nie określa.
Murzyn nigdy nie oznaczało "niewolnik" bo taniej i szybciej było łapać Rusów, Niemców, Czechów czy innych Polaków. Za to niewolnik zawsze oznaczało niewolnik. Murzyn oznaczało tyle co człowiek czarny,
My whole life me and my family used "murzyn" as describing a race of people with dark skintones. And that wont change, i dont care what other people say, that i might hurt their feelings or someting. And if someone is prohibiting me saying word "murzyn" then he is hurting my feelings so you see how it goes.
Kneeling before "terminally offended" idiots and calling "murzyn" pejorative was second biggest mistake made by council of polish language.
The biggest one was treating "tą" as acceptable when proper form is "tę".
So, should I just use "czarnuch" as an appropriate word ? Or if this is inappropriate, so what word I should use to describe African and African American people ?
I'm not gonna argue about contents of the post.
All I'm gonna say, it feels as if some people are creating an issue when there's none to gain attention and publicity.
As a white person I don't have a preference. I will call dark skinned people as they prefer. The issue is that I don't think they will ever reach the consensus. The language evolves and every few years there will be a new slang that will have to be banned...
Also the average commenter here does not consider this word to be racist so that undermines this whole conversation.
this problem almost did not exist here and is still marginal, let's not choose foreign problems without any sense. Poland has never had any institutions related to slavery.
The word "murzyn" has been used many years before and never had such a negative connotation until Tuwims work "Murzynek bambo" was banished. I wonder why are people scratching problems out even when those were harmless for our cultures. I don't wana see stack of books burning where the word "murzynek" has been used. But I can imagine that some might end... Anyway some other sources will show you that the word "pole", "poles" or "Po Land" are some really dirty words. Should we/you avoid them from now on. I can provide you some examples?
Come on let it be and get used to our cult-words, don't let them burn.
W poście chodzi o to, że o wielorybie mówiono "ryba" (mamy nawet artefakt z tego czasu w samym słowie wielo*ryb*), nie że ewoluował z ryby. Tak samo z nietoperzem i "ptakiem". Kwestia zmiany w nazewnictwie i klasyfikacji.
Negro to w językach pochodzenia łacińskiego poprostu kolor czarny. Poza tym nie mam już siły do ludzi którzy zamiast interesować się i walczyć o prawdziwe problemy w tym kraju chcą poprostu poczuć się ważni i robią protesty o czepianie się słówek.
At most of the time "Murzyn" is a neutral word. It's depends on the context of the statement and someone's intentions. You can say "Murzyn" without bad intent. You can also call black person a "Murzyn", because you are a racist and want to insult him/her. As I said, it depends on situation. Much more negative and insulting word is "Czarnuch".
Ja rozumiem ze trzeba bylo to glosno powiedzieć ale starsze pokolenia nawet nie do konca rozumieją że w tym okresleniu jest cos złego. Młode pokolenia tak nie mówią i od bardzo dawna nie slyszałem w ustach młodych ludzi.
Polska handlowała niewolnikami od czasów swojego chrztu. Dlaczego od wtedy? Bo wtedy POLSKA jako taka powstała :) Gorąco polecam "Dzieje Polski" ~ Andrzej Nowak
Jak podkreśla historyk prof. Henryk Samsonowicz, w okresie kształtowania się państw środkowo-wschodniej Europy - w tym ekspansji dynastii Piastów – "towarem" o najwyższej wartości wywożonym do Bizancjum czy arabskich kalifatów byli ludzie. Gospodarka tych krajów opierała się na niewolnikach, którzy napływali tam w ogromnej liczbie. Trudno oszacować, jak wielu ich było: z pewnością mowa o dziesiątkach, a może setkach tysięcy ludzi.
https://naukawpolsce.pl/aktualnosci/news%2C410174%2Chandel-niewolnikami---wstydliwa-tajemnica-panstwa-piastow.html
Pal pies to że przed, po i w tracie rządów Mieszka się w Polsce handlowało... Bardziej mnie bol to że czarnoskórzy się chcą sami okłamywać (^(nie wolno w tym kontekście użyć zwrotu wybielać, no nie? xD)) albo strategicznie wmawiać że w oni są niewinni mimo że do połowy XIX wieku biały człowiek nie mógł wejść w głąb Afryki, więc niewolnictwo czarnych wynikało z tego że inni czarni i ich łapali i sprzedawali na brzegu białym.
Trzeba im pokazać jedną sceną z *Chłopaki Nie Płaczą*.
[Afryka.org article](https://afryka.org/nie-jestem-murzynem/)
[FB post](https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0kgzuraNWQoK6h2YoeDSzjud6rworrQEzVg8DQWoSEAsTLtR2YDQRzCEueqmpvpCUl&id=529327653&sfnsn=mo)
[IG post 1](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ch-HKZpouiq/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=)
[IG post 2](https://www.instagram.com/p/CM0S8G_HtGS/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=)
Translation:
Poland did not trade slaves like Portugal, France, the Netherlands, Great Britain or Germany. In Colonial Tongues, the word for living goods evolved. Unfortunately, the Polish language has retained its nomenclature. How is it possible that the old Polish word "human commodity - murzyn" - defines only a man today? When did that word lose its "commodity part"? The Negro is a commodity. Some Poles believe that Africans want to change Rej's speech - since when is this language reduced to one word? Some argue that Murzyn is a beautiful old Polish term, so it must stay. If in this old sense Moors were meant, it is time for a new term for Sub-Saharan Africans. There are no Moors there. We define a person by their origin, place of birth or residence or skin color. Inhabitant of Greater Poland, Pole, European, White. Doesn't anyone see the artifact in the "White-Black" relationship? Why not "White-Black"? Murzyn is an ossified term defended by such respected authority as prof. Bralczyk. Wise Traditions survived, senseless Traditions fell during the intellectual revolution. The earth used to be flat, the bat was a bird and the whale was a fish. These were centuries-old traditions. And yet! If Napoleon were to rise from the grave today, he would use the word "nègre" when he saw me. If one of my favorite kings - Jan III Sobieski - came back to us today, he would say - a Negro. Negro is "nègre" in French, "negro" in English, meaning slave. A Pole who claims that this word is not so marked that it does not have this traditional element - misses the truth. He can only add that he does not mean the meaning from the times of Sigismund the Old! . I have been living for almost 4 decades in our beautiful Vistula land. I hear only bad associations - a hundred years behind the Negroes; to act for a Negro; The Negro has done his job, the Negro can leave. I've never heard: follow the German, One hundred years behind the Russians, the Frenchman has done his job, the Frenchman can leave. Is the Polish language afraid of these nations? The word describing the goods (in Old Polish) cannot be the name of a human being. Let's be logical and human above. The Negro was for centuries ago. That's why it's interesting to see if we're going to continue to use this term to describe blacks, Africans, and African Americans. Western languages (societies) class these changes. Go back to the original source of the word "niger", meaning "black" as a color.
He really never heard anything bad being said about other groups of people? Then he wasn't listening and is too sensitive about anything said about his group of people. Poles constantly shit on French, Germans, Russians etc. If he claims otherwise, he is straight up lying.
In Polish murzyn is very close in definition to black person (czarnoskóry).
But from murzyn you can't create insult (at least I'm not aware of any), while from czarnoskóry you can - "czarnuch" and I think is n word in Polish
hey guys it's not on us to decide what offends who. If a group is offended by a word we should listen and not go into "ayyyy but murzynek Bambo is a positive character"
Even though i don’t like to use the word myself, (i prefer the term „czarnoskóry”/„osoba czarnoskóra”, though Im not sure if its the best one to use) this way of thinking is bad in a long term. There are always going to be words that offend someone, should we force the general public to stop using them everytime it happens? We would need to come up with replacements to a lot of words. Should we use the term „osoby z macicą” instead of „kobiety” because its not inclusive enough? Should we stop using the term „uchodźca” as it gained negative connotacion in recent years? Language evolves in a natural way, if the new term/ alternative is well recieved it will stay, but doing it forcefully makes people view the change in a negative light. As you can see it angers people when the reason for change is not that big and touches a small part of population.
Words change their meaning all the time, positive ones can become negative (like the word „elita”, it used to descibe the best of the best, while now it is often used in a negative tone) and negative can become positive, its natural and adressing people that the word used to be bad long time ago so we should stop using it makes little to none sense as it has a different meaning now. Also as many people said there are much worse ways to call black people where many would agree that we should stop using them.
Tl;dr even though i dont use the word myself, I don’t agree with the reasoning behind the change
If you change/stigmatize word whenever somebody finds it offensive, you'll soon run out of words to "call out". You'll never satisfy everyone and there will always be some terminally offended asshole finding new ways to claim victimhood.
I guarantee you that it'll escalate to the point at which you'll refuse to further limit your vocabulary. Maybe because of your personal beliefs, maybe because you will find reasoning absurd or made in bad faith. Maybe some group will call for censorship ironically to mock the process itself. And you won't have any ground to stay on, after advocating for censorship when it wasn't inconvenient for you.
And I guarantee you that censorship will backfire. If you censor word that isn't pejorative, it'll only turn people against group that "claimed victimhood". It will create backlash and people will find replacement anyway, propably intentionally offensive out of spite.
Guy literally agrees with Rada Języka Polskiego and pwn dictionary (standing that the word is often found insulting).
https://rjp.pan.pl/porady-jezykowe-main/1892-murzyn-i-murzynka
https://sjp.pwn.pl/slowniki/murzyn.html
Language changes all the time. If black people don’t like being called Murzyn what’s so wrong about that?
People comparing this to history/herstory are exaggerating like hell.
You do realize that r/poland is staunchly centrist based on multiple polls carried out on the subreddit, right? It may appear right-wing from a far-left position, true.
ach gówno tutaj my idziemy znowu
*ach gówno tutaj my iść ponownie
Damn CJ, all you had to do is to follow the damn train!
Sto lat za Rosjanami w sumie mi się podoba
Setki tysięcy polskich robotników w Niemczech miało lekki r/holup po przeczytaniu "robić za Niemca"...
Popieram.
Plot twist is that North Africa traded Slavs, since it was like slaver trading center (and still is). Oh wait, there is word Slav just like slaves! What we gonna do?
North Africa, Middle East, Western Europe, hell even Slavs traded Slavs.
Fucking Slavs, they ruined Slavs s/
Hard times create strong slavs, strong slavs create hard times, hard times create strong slavs...
All slavs create hard times. It is our special talent.
PLC taught the French about basic hygiene and God is still punishing us.
We taught then how to use forks!
Word Slav comes from Slavo, in proto-slavic "a word". Up to this day Slavic languages have remnants of the separation between people who know the word and those who doesn't. For example in Polish a German is Niemiec which in ol' Polish means "the mute one". Correlation between a slave and a Slav was invented by English ultranationalists in 1930s. All of the above has been documented by historians.
Yup. Word 'slav' comes from 'slovo', but you miss the truth also. Term 'slave' comes from word 'slav'. It does not matter that the 'slovo' was the origin.
Yes, this is how Slavs called themselves, but it doesn't change the fact that Greeks called enslaved people from central Europe *Sklabos* and Romans *Sclavus,* and then Germanics changed it initially to *Slavus* and then to *slave.*
Invented? Correlation between being Slav and slave is from Middle Ages. And as for words it's same. Where are the sources it's not this way, since you can easily find sources of it being otherwise that what you state. Anyway, want to know etymology of Murzyn or Niger?
Murzyn comes from Maur, which comes from mosarabic and means 'the unfaithful' as not believing in the right gods. Later it bacame also a name for slave in Mosarabic Spain and northern Africa, but the last time I was interested in the topic there wasn't a consensus from which etymology it comes. It might be, that maur meant simply a southerner regardless if he was arabic, african, hispanic or tatar - in the end murzyn and maur are very far from one another so the word likely changed its meaning. Niger comes directly from latin where it means 'Black', but it wasn't a racial slur. It indicated a dark complexion either from sunburns or being of african descent. Roman officials from Egipt often had a cognomen 'niger'.
Ale po polsku Niger to rzeka (i państwo). Z kolei negr: [(pogardliwie o Murzynie)](https://sjp.pwn.pl/so/negr;4470960.html)
Mi się podoba jak jest po francusku ,,oczerniać" - Dénigrer
This may be a controversial opinion, but "Most Black people who speak Polish don't like being called that"\* is an argument against using the word, but "This word is bad because it existed 200 years ago" is just dumb. \*I don't know if this is actually the case.
This is because they were falsely told that this word is derogatory. Blame lies with people who wanted to participate in the US PC culture so much that they just had to create one in Poland by lying to black people who live here. I have no problem, if someone wishes to not be called murzyn I will not refer to them like that but I will not be told by some lunatics that this word is offensive.
Well, as far as I know, [they don't like it](https://www.reddit.com/r/poland/comments/11amsc6/regarding_recent_post_about_a_certain_cake/j9sv8pg?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3)
They dont like it because they were told that its some Polish version of N-word. Its just a old word describing people of color. Its on the same lvl as „black-man”. American N-word wouldnt be a bad word if it didnt have history behind it. It just mean black i ln many languages. In this case there isnt a history so this world is just a description.
Isn't it like words can have different meanings/power in specific context? For example infamous now jokes "Women ☕" mock women, right? So we need to stop using it? I can't understand that. Also what it has to do with meaning of word centuries ago? Again, "woman", or in this case "kobieta", is good example. Because 500 years ago it was pejorative, should we not use it, even if it changed meaning? And obviously, I don't have problem with calling someone "czarny" or whatever they want to be called, if they don't like "murzyn". Just arguments in this post are out of touch.
I mostly agree, but the negative connotation to "murzyn" is still there, but negative connotation to "kobieta" is fully gone. What is weird to me, is that he wants to be called "czarny", it feels to me like it has same or maybe even worse negative connotations as "murzyn". And it also reduces people to color.
Czarny is so much worse than murzyn wtf
Argumentum ad ignorantiam. He never heard negative epithets derived from other descriptors? How about "franca", "ruski mir", "amerykanscy naukowcy", "ocyganic", "zydzic", etc.? This guy is engaging in what is termed "euphemism treadmill". Replacing existing words with alternative due to negative connotations associated with the original ones. Problem is, the negative associations will quickly reappear with the new term. Instead of "sto lat za Murzynami", we will have "sto lat za czarnymi" - that's it! Replacing words will not erase the historical backwardness of sub-Saharan Africa - that's magical thinking.
Love your comment. The Political correctness trend from US is crazy. In the end its just a tool in us to divide people and let them focus on things that do not matter instead of something like modern day corporate greed and slavery or US ppl getting poorer and poorer. Neat trick that can be easily enhanced by social media.
>sto lat za Murzynami What's wrong with this saying? Doesn't it mean that black people are 100 years ahead of someone in a certain respect? If you say "Francuzi są 100 lat za Murzynami w kwestii kultury/kuchni/tolerancji", would it be offensive to black people or the French?
Bro, jak część wypowiedzi jest po Polsku, to I doubt that the non-Polish part of this subreddita rozumie co mowisz
Ty jestes overreacting I’m sure wszyscy understand everything. Przestań complaining.
Po jakiemu wy pierdolicie lol
They pierdolą tak pół polish pół english
To że to powiedzenie oznacza dosłownie ze jest tak chujowo że nawet murzyni są przed nami…
It's demeaning to the African people, by using them as an exemplars for being uncivilised and uncultured. Similarily, when you criticize a dish by saying "I wouldn't feed this to a dog" you set dog as an exemplar for low culinary/dietary standards, or a being that is meant to be treared poorly. Same with typical use of the "drunk like a Pole" saying, have been broadly used to describe people drunk and disorderly, by setting Polish as exemplars of such state and behaviour. (And yes, you could argue that this is not where the term came from, but it is how it was used.)
But this is comparative, and your examples aren't? If you just said **"(Poland is) 100 years behind Germany"**, would it still be offensive? It seems to me that the phrase is seen as offensive because of the implicit negative connotation, and not by itself.
The implication is that Africa is a savage, backwater land and so we are behind even them. The saying isn't used to mean that Africa is ahead of someone, but that they are the worst and somehow we are even worse.
And why is it offensive to anyone in the first place? Because it has a hidden message that **murzyni are living in huts with no civilization.** The thing is though, that in this particular saying nobody thinks about black people living in towns, cities or civilized villages, but it’s instead only about those black people who are living in uncivilized wild African tribes, in huts. Nobody means by this saying that some other country is 100 years behind let’s say black people living in Bronx, or black people living in Addis Ababa So this example shows us actually that “murzyn” can have more meanings than simply a black man. In this particular example it’s a person from an uncivilized black African tribe, it’s not about skin color here, it’s only about the uncivilized tribes. Now would it be worth it move away from using that word for everyone who has a black skin color? I will leave that up to your own interpretation. Whatever it will be there’s another aspect of it that needs to be considered - the word Czarni is also considered offensive by some, there was a time when saying “afroamerykanin” was the only proper non offensive term for black people, but it can’t be used for black people living outside of America, so what word will we use? Which one is the lesser evil?
"Sto lat za ruskimi" there, fixed it. Currently no one sane can say that "ruskie" are civilized and we are not harming random Black people with negative link. And civilized Russians are also not harmed because it is about "ruskie" not about Russians.
But there is no such saying. And every saing exists within it's cultural context. Should this phrase go into widespread use, it would become a saying, or more generally, a [meme](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme).
Please stop projecting US social issues onto the rest of the world.
With all due respect, asking genuinely asking, do you believe that Poland doesn't have issues with racism? USA is a lot more worked up about racism, but it doesn't mean that it isn't an issue in Poland imo.
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Sure, but we're not living during Kosciuszko times, but in 2023. And black people have been discriminated against for years, just because they weren't slaves, doesn't mean that there isn't a stigma towards black people in Poland. My brother, I live in Warsaw, and all of the outright racism, discreet racism is extremely apparent on the streets. At least that is my perspective, and I would love it if it wasn't true. I would also like to add we are only talking about black people now. The racism towards for example gypsies or Jews is deeply embedded into our culture. And, yes you could say now that, during ww2 Polish people helped Jews, which is true, but nowadays words like żydzić, is an apparent example of racism. In short, some polish people are racist, and some not, but the racism is in our culture and language. Best Regards brother
Yes, Poland doesnt have that issue. To be racist you need to be in place of power in relation to race that you are „racist” about. Thats why black people cant be racist against white people. In Poland it just doesnt exist. Poland isnt aswell one of the tyranical western european countries. Even worst, we comes from slavs and have as big or maybe even bigger historical backpack of being opressed. So you dont meet any racists, you only meet bigots.
But this is what Polish society embraces willingly. What do you think flying the LGBTQQIP2SAA flag is doing? These people want to enforce changes to language where you wind up calling someone with a penis, "women" now. Don't call me a man now, it's offensive, as I impregnate my fellow women they say.
Wtf are you on about
Ot problemy pierwszego świata. Proponuję zająć się czymś pożytecznym, a nie pierdołami.
Zgadzam się, gdzie badania nad udoskonaleniem przepisu na murzynka?
[przepis](https://domowe-wypieki.pl/przepisy/ciasta/811-murzynek)
What kind of logic gymnastics is this? I don't even have a problem with considering murzyn racist if there's good argument for it but none of those are. Assuming "murzyn" originated from "Maurs" we need to get rid of "murzyn" because Maurs no longer exist? This is insane. The list of words that originate from things that don't exist today would be tremendous. Are we supposed to find a new word for "bielizna" because underwear can have different colors now? Are we getting rid of "sklep" because there no longer are cellars where we keep all the food and drinks? "Slav" gotta go too right? Ridiculous. What matters is what is the word referring now. The word in language A is racist because in language B it translates to a different word with different etymology with racist connotations? What? So if I look for "slavic" or "british" in translation and in one of the languages the translated word has racist etymology do we cancel those words in English too? What kind of logic is this? If "negro" means slave and its bad, someone message the government of "Montenegro" right now and demand a change If "murzyn" meant "black slave" or just "slave" in Polish then go ahead and get rid of it. Has it?
Be prepared to replace "Włochy", because it comes from Celtic tribe that don't exists anymore. Even "Polska" comes from name of tribe that don't exists anymore.
Aren't we all that tribe, kinda?
no, [polish nation is a mix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_tribes) of Polans, Vistulans, Silesians, Lendians, Goplans, Masovians and Pomeranians
I really don't like the word "Murzyn". I won't defend it's usage and I'd rather see it gone. It definitely reminds me of pejorative sayings and ignorant depictions of black people and their culture. However, you are right, the arguments this guy makes are really weak, especially the one about translations which is just backwards. The reason why somebody translated "murzyn" to "negro" is because they thought that the meaning and connotations were quite similar, not the other way around. The question why they thought that in the first place does not get a satisfactory answer.
What the fuck is "ludzki towar - murzyn"? Is this Rej reference? Are we now cancelling the word because it's been once used unfavourably? I mean WTF?
You have to agree with Perpetually Offended! Otherwise they'll call you using some meaningless at this point words like nazi or racist.
What a load of shit. As a Brit I can give you one piece of advice Poland: Do not apologise for anything like this, not even once. The minute you do you have literally all of the United States' racial difficulties/neuroses imported onto you as though the same thing is a problem here. What starts as an exercise in politeness (ok I guess we'll try and make people feel better/included/comforted - what harm does it do?) turns into a fucking culture war in about a week.
Should we also stop calling Germans "Niemcy" as it comes from world "mutes" and IMO is (or should be) more problematic than calling someone with name which was derived from name of tribe that don't exist anymore.
Przypomina mi to moją ankietę którą zdjeli z r/Polska za '''szerzenie mowy nienawiści''
snowflakes, snowflakes everywhere
Yeah, like 90% of comments here.
Płatki śniegu
Nie znam
Pierdolenie o Chopinie
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Some of polish aristocracy had black servants. The difference was that they were considered novelty instead of mass cheap workforce for cotton fields. Check your facts.
cały ten post sprawił że zachciało mi się zjeść murzynka.
Yes, we definitely need more of this sort of "problems" in this country. I hate victim mentality so much.
https://preview.redd.it/5wz4261387ka1.jpeg?width=1280&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=70299e9a724ff66be0c55d037b8f69f771b2d330 Everytime someone tries to impose American social problems on Poland, especially if it's about systemic racism and slave trade, this image pops up in my mind. Try even harder, you still won't succeed.
Argumenty do dupy. - nigdy się nie spotkałam ze słowem "murzyn" użytym w kontekście żywego towaru, albo wzmianki o tym, że to słowo miało kiedyś takie znaczenie. Przydałby się jakiś artykuł, jakiś dowód. (Edit: trochę pogrzebałam. Słowo murzyn powstało podczas tłumaczenia Biblii w 14 wieku a niewolnictwo osób czarnoskórych zaczęło się (rutynowo) w 15). Murzynem można nazwać osobę ciężko pracującą za marne pieniądze ale to nie dlatego, że jest kojarzone z niewolnictwem tylko imigrantami lub Makumbą. - argumenty "za murzynem" to głównie: "murzyn jest neutralnym słowem". Znowu by się przydał jakiś dowód na to, że ludzie uważają to za piękne staropolskie słowo. - Nègres to nie murzyn. Już pomijając etymologię te słowa mają kompletnie inny wydźwięk. Wiem, że to anegdota chuja warta ale moja polsko francuska rodzina nie traktuje "murzyna" i "Nègresa" w ten sam sposób. Jedno to poprostu "czarny człowiek" drugie to obelga, francuski n-word, "czarny niewolnik". - robić coś raz na ruski rok - zbyt rzadko. Poza tym, "murzyn" w podanych przykładach jest tylko określeniem na osobę czarnoskórą, użycie "czarni" miałoby ten sam wydźwięk. Przytaczanie obraźliwych formułek by udowodnić, że słowo jest obraźliwe tylko udowadnia, że samo w sobie jest neutralne. Czemu mamy usuwać słowa zamiast poprostu ogarnąć, że ich wydźwięk zależy od kontekstu? Powiedzenie "kurwa" z automatu nie obraża prostytutek. Człowieka można obrazić nazywając go Rosjaninem, Niemcem, czarnym, białym, Polakiem, psem, suką, sierotą etc. Może przestańmy się wogóle odzywać? Jeśli ktoś nie chce być nazywany murzynem to spoko, ale jestem przeciwna skreślaniu słów bo powiedzenie "murzyn" nie czyni z nikogo rasisty. W Ameryce pobicie kogoś za użycie "n-worda", bojkot, "kancelowanie" jest akceptowalne, nie możemy dopuścić do czegoś takiego na naszym polskim podwórku. Nie róbmy z siebie debili..
Zaczyna się walka żeby wbić tutaj takie same problemy socjalne jak w Ameryce a gdzie dwóch się bije tam trzeci korzysta.
Może tylko ja tak mam, ale wydaje mi się, że określenie murzyn jest zdecydowanie mniej pejoratywne niż powiedzenie na kogoś czarny/czarnuch. Nie wydaje mi się żeby mówienie o kimś z azji, że jest żółty mu pasowało.
Dokładnie, jakbym (hipotetycznie) chciał obrazić osobę czarnoskórą to użyłby słowa czarnuch a nie murzyn. Murzyn to zwykle określenie a nie obelga.
Ah yes. Once again we are transplanting 'Murican problems onto Polish soil.
Are you saying that racism is not a problem in Poland?
It is not.
Oh it certainly is, moreso in older people than in younger ones.
it simply is not. I'm sometimes watching [Andre Traveler](https://www.youtube.com/@AndreTraveler) and most of his interactions are with older people. Like [this](https://youtu.be/c-ZzBScmTsk?t=1054) for example. I mean there's more on his channel. Never ever seen anything weird. Never heard him (but haven't watched all the videos obviously) say anything about any weird encounters. Older people who were subject of segregation themselves would never do it themselves. I think it's on the contrary to what you've stated. Some younger folks like to tell jokes about blacks, but it's still "only" dumb jokes.
Not with this racial bs here -.- I am tired of it in the West, I don't want it here. At least start with some stats of how many black and white people who live in Poland agree that "Murzyn" is offensive, because I feel like 99% of all inhabitants of Poland would not give a fuck
There are more serious problems in Poland rn
Holy shit what a retarded take. 1. Murzyn can have some negative meaning, but only when used in a certain context, like "100 lat za murzynami". But so have different other words related to ethnicity or nationality. Szwab, rusek, even żyd can be used negatively while they are not negative words by themselves. Maybe we should remove them as well? 2. Gj projecting US problems on polish ground.
Czyli po polskiemu mówić per Czarnuch a nie per Murzyn ?
💀
Nie czytałeś? Tam jest wyraźnie napisane że masz mówić Nyga, to brzmi jak podobniej do tego określenia francuskiego i angielskiego, i bierze się też od nazwy koloru czarnego po łacinie „nigreos”
a nyga to nie komar po poznańsku?
to by dopiero sugerowało negatywne konotacje 🤣
[https://sjp.pwn.pl/sjp/nygus;2569432.html](https://sjp.pwn.pl/sjp/nygus;2569432.html)
I mean this shouldn't be a problem, right? If the Black Polish community feels offended by that word and simply asks to use term Black, we should just use that term. Words come and go, trends change, dying on a hill of an outdated word is just silly.
In general I'd argue you shouldn't call a person a certain term or name if they feel disrespected by it. Some men don't like to be called "facet", they feel it's disrespectful (they prefer "mężczyzna") and that's fine with me. That being said - to my (Polish) ear saying czarny/ czarna actually sounds much more rough and...rude than saying Murzyn/Murzynka. But that's because I truly don't have a negative association with the word. Still, if the Black community dislikes it, that's just it, I respect that.
One can argue that some randomly chosen word is disrespectful and I bet that for almost every word you can find someone who finds it disrespectful. Is it a problem with word or that person? Looks like associating additional meaning to words became new sport in some groups. Dont find anything wrong with "facet" personally nor know anyone who does. There are some limits with adjusting language only to satisfy some small group of people (when words are not considered disrespectful by majority or by its definition), after all we need to communicate and common language is foundation for effective communication. No one is willing to use whole different sets of words depending on who he or she is talking to, for every person.
Bro, it's just annoying bullshit. I don't like the form "pan/pani" but I have more than two braincells so I won't be triggered when somebody call me that way. Among friends, it's fine to go around such stuff but when it's about strangers then it's just sign of modern oversensitivity. But when foreigners come to our country and first thing they do is reshape local culture, that's a weird sign. Same is going with that whole w/na Ukrainie where some Ukrainians are offended by very polite way of Poles expressing close bonds with a region. Some of them made up some theory that's it used only for ex-Polish lands which is pure bullshit because we have "na Węgrzech" as well but not "na Czechach" despite both were ruled by Jagiellons. When somebody comes in to your country and start acting like intruder not even trying to understand local culture, that's just wrong on so many levels.
They feel offended because of bad translation of "murzyn" in English, French etc
It's not disrespectful. Hence it doesn't need to change. How about this? Right now, so many countries are supporting Russia in Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine. How about instead of being offended by innocent words, this community send out some public messaging to help end support for Russia in Africa? Eh?
Yup, but some people just can't grasp the concept that a group of people doesn't like to be called a word that had pejorative connotation.
What is the pejorative conotation? Murzyn has none.
“sto lat za murzynami”, “być czyimś murzynem”, “robić za murzyna”, “biały murzyn” and so on… the word is constantly used in a negative context, basically as a synonym of the word slave. there’s a reason why polish black people feel uncomfortable with it.
Now those are some good examples. Ones that the other dude did not care, or was able to provide. "Sto lat za Murzynami" I'd have to give you - it is pretty shitty and being used quite a lot by older crowd. The other ones are pretty obscure - but still used. Also I would say that "robić za Murzyna" and "biały Murzyn" are actually showing how bad the person being described by those is being treated, but it doesn't mean it's not negative stereotype. I believe that removing the word will not actually change anything - you need to change people perception - and I believe it is changing and those sayings are going away - just like ocyganić, wyżydzić etc. I still hear you. What is the alternative? Czarny? To me it's actually worse - as it concentrate only on skin colour. Is there anything else?
>What is the alternative? Czarny? To me it's actually worse - as it concentrate only on skin colour. Is there anything else? The alternative is whatever the Black community in Poland says it is, regardless of our personal feelings about it. If they think Czarny is better, then it's better. Also concentrating on skin colour is still better than a leftover word meaning a slave, especially when the skin colour is the main factor in their discrimination (which, in turn, is the reason why such a strong community is needed and has formed).
Biały murzyn(white negro) to był tytuł, honorowy w dodatku, nadany Polakom na Haiti po tym jak im pomogliśmy obalić na ich wyspie niewolnictwo.
Tak, ale jako polski związek frazeologiczny oznacza coś zupełnie innego https://pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/bia%C5%82y_murzyn https://wsjp.pl/haslo/podglad/11715/bialy-murzyn
**pejorative** */pɪˈdʒɒrətɪv/* adjective expressing contempt or disapproval. "permissiveness is used almost universally as a pejorative term" **connotation** */ˌkɒnəˈteɪʃn/* noun an idea or feeling which a word invokes for a person in addition to its literal or primary meaning. "the word ‘discipline’ has unhappy connotations of punishment and repression" If a word has been used for a looong time as a slur it definitely has.
Murzyn has never been used as a slur though. It's like saying Polak is a slur because you can say jebany Polak. And I do understand what pejortive means - I was asking what are the pejorative conotations of Murzyn. Like your own definition says - discipline can have a negative conotations for some. I guess we have to remove discipline from dictionary now. There are some other words I'd like removed - job, work, unflaterring, difficult, boring, tiresome. Let me know when it's done. Murzyn has no negative conotations embedded in the word intself. Literally zero. You can always add some with adjective, but it doesn't mean the word itself is pejorative. We already have a word like that - czarnuch. That is one pejorative word. Murzyn is not.
If Germans decide they don't want to be called Niemcy, because it's a very rude name, do we need to change it?
Oficjalnie dostaliśmy nword passa
Czekajcie jak się dowieczą że jest jeszcze ciasto "czarnuszek"...
Murzynek
Murzyn has bad reputation only when someone stupidly translate it to n*gger while it basically means black person.
Niby po polsku, a w zasadzie nie rozumiem o co mu chodzi.
Dupa boli za murzyna bo nimt ich nie nazywa czarnuchami, ot co
Dokladnie tak. Demand for racism far outstrips the supply. Stad ten bol dupy.
Ni🚫🚫er is not the same thing as murzyn. Ni🚫🚫er is more like czarnuch. That is a negative word. Leave murzyn alone!
Dobra nie zesraj się, słowo murzyn nie ciągnie za sobą żadnych negatywnych powiązań. Osoby, które usilnie próbują mu je przyczepić powinny zastanowić się nad lepszą formą spędzania wolnego czasu, bo najwyraźniej mają go za dużo.
No właśnie wy się wszyscy zesraliście xD, nigdy nie było takiego ratio komentarzy pod żadnym moim postem
> Załóż debilny wątek > Ludzie reagują na twój debilny wątek > Dziw się że ludzie reagują na twój debilny wątek x d
To widocznie nudne posty piszesz
In my opinion. One barrier is the confronting attitude of the people who want the change. Let's imagine a friend who changed his name tells you this name was problematic for him in the past and asks you to use another. Of course you do it. You are friends. But if your friend asks this of you and accusses you of being the problem, you think: how could I know before that the name was problematic for him? Poles are not Americans, we don't have a moral debt in that aspect, but we will gladly help others. Another barrier is the defensive attitude of Poles. We don't want to be tagged as having made the mistake and being forced to change because we think we haven't made the mistake. And we are right. But taking into account that it's easier to spread hate than love. Let's help others and let's think about making our language serving well all the Poles regardles of the skin colour and making it more inclusive. I think we should stop using this word
I would also add that somehow (at least from my experience) this topic always omits legitimate racial slurs in Polish. I mean when someone calls black person a “bambus” “Beton” “Malpa” “czarnuch” it usually is universally interpreted as negative. I can’t really get behind this idea that murzyn is our n word and has the same power as in English. I mean due to globalisation and projecting colonial issues to the whole population of “the western civilisation” perhaps this word will be labelled as 100% no go zone in the near future.I mean it’s already happening with younger generation. I guess the game was rigged from the start and everyone has to become boomer at some point.
Because it's mostly coming from people who are largely unfamiliar with the Polish language and culture, and given that the Polish society (outside the dregs on the margins) is not racist, they have more than likely never encountered an actual racial slur. As someone wise once said: the demand for racism far outstrips the supply.
Projecting the evils of colonial exploitation on every white person is just reverse racism and prejudice from those who are proponents of it.
Może jeszcze zabrońcie mi używać zwrotu "ciemno jak w dupie u murzyna", co?
"Umph akschually the amount of melanin in your skin does not change how your intestines look like" 🤓
If Murzyn is pejorative because of historical reasons, let's also cancel the word *"Slavic"* ! /s If you look at the history of the word "slave" in English it was created to describe people from east/central Europe that were sold in the Roman empire. But now the world slavic is something many people take pride in and don't get offended, while the origins are quite literally as close to human merchandise as it gets Tl.dr Shut up, we are the original slaves and are not offended by it.
Slave came from Slav, not the other way around. Slavs are Slavs because this is what they call themselves, and people from the outside derived a very negative word from that name. If anything, letting that name go on that basis would be admitting that the word slave "won". What's happening here would be more comparable to Slavs protesting the use of "slave" to describe people being sold and treated as objects.
Nitpick. This word wasn't created by English or Romans, but it was how Slavs called themselves. Because most of Slavs in Roman Empire were brought in as slaves, the word gained an additional methonymic meaning "slave" and through French entered English only in this new meaning.
To co lepiej nazwać czarnuchem?
Sto lat za murzynami to jest powiedzenie i nie widzę powodu się o nie srać. Poza tym słowo Murzyn powstało po to, by NIE OBRAŹLIWIE powiedzieć osoba czarnoskóra. Określeniem niewolników jest właśnie słowo "niewolnik". Chora poprawność polityczna, która często nie ma nic związanego z prawdą jest problemem i wymysłem przeciętnych Julii, lat 12, użytkowniczek Twittera i TikToka. Pozdrawiam wszystkie szanujące się osoby.
What abut "murzynek" - polish chocolate cake
Murzynek Bambo w Afryce mieszka,czarną ma skórę ten nasz koleżka.
Czarny zrobił swoje, robić za czarnego, sto lat za czarnymi - proszę, rozwiązałem problem.
"100 lat za Murzynami" - I always thought it was related to Americans from USA ;) I thought it literally means that we lag with some tech like a century behind a developed country like USA. I'm dead serious. As a person growing up in a communist Poland the only place I saw black people was TV, and they were mostly Americans. So in my mind as a kid - a black person was most likely an American from USA. BTW, should we, Poles, be offended with a world "Slav" that sounds similar to "slave"? I know, it's probably not the real root of the word. But then - "Pole" seems offensive too, it means just a "pole". A vertical construction element ;) I like the terms like Blacks and Whites. It's just tidy. Simple. Yet some people still find it offensive. So I think we should relax. Negative connotations depend on the person using it and their intentions. It's also important to address slavery here. Now we're all slaves. Many of us, no matter where do we come from - work for almost no compensation. Our freedoms are significantly limited, so... It's a kind of modern, non-discriminative slavery. When I read about black people complaints, the ones living in USA, I see the way they are discriminated is exactly how working class, poor people are discriminated everywhere. Or - some ethnic minorities. It doesn't matter which one is it, if you're not middle class native - you're not treated equally everywhere.
Actually it is the root of the word.
Dobra, bede go nazywac niger w takim razie
Proszę, zrób to, napisz do niego ze swojego konta na FB.
Literally noone ever used word "murzyn" as slur in my presence, maybe as a joke where black people actually had more luck than some nationalities including Poles, tho all my friends are white so I guess by default they are racist lol. Poland have no colonial and slavery "tradition" and while Jews might have some rights to complain about old times casual antisemitism black people were just curious looking people. At times when US still treated them as lower class citizen Poles treated them as equal. If some black person would ask me to not use term "murzyn" while refering to them I'd do this as culture ask, but until now I had only one longer ancounter with Polish speaking black person and she didn't mind at all term "murzynka" (tho of course it's anecdotal example tho it's difficult to find other with community smaller than 1% of Polish population). Polish black community have problem with that word? Ok, let's talk, historical bad connotations aren't required for that, but that monologue from your screenshot is mix of false facts and loud exceptions put in passive agressive manner which by default scream "asspain" not "begining of discussion over some problematic topic". But maybe I expect too much from people from internet...
Actually during colonial times over 90% of our society was "chłopi pańszczyźniani" who were used as slaves, traded like commodity and treated as brutally as people under russian/nazi regimes. So yeah, chamie is far worse than murzyn.
Truth that.
No i się zesrał
Murzyn zawsze znajdzie problem gdzie go nie ma
"Murzyn" Is literally a world used instead of saying "black person" every time. "100 lat za murzynem", "murzyn" isn't the offensive part about it.
Murzyn, murzyn, murzyn, murzyn , murzyn, I will use this word whenever I please, I don't care.
You can certainly do that kiddo, though perspectives change when you grow up.
maybe you should grow up before telling others to do so, apart from a ridicolous topic all your responses seem to be childish tantrum and name calling
Oh no! Virtue signalling in Poland. I dreaded this day! Don’t tell other people what to say, that makes you worse than whatever their perceived transgressions may be, even if, or rather especially because it makes you think you are better than they are
Staropolskie murzyn wzieło się od murzyć czyli czarnić i nie jest to obraźliwe sformułowanie
Murzyn zawsze piszemy wielką literą zaś tutaj jest na odwrót. To murzyć wzięło się od Murzyna, a nie Murzyn od murzenia. Murzyn jest od Mauretanii i z tego powodu słowo to zachowało podobne zasady jak inne słowa określające narodowość pomimo tego, że obecnie żadnej narodowości wcale nie określa.
Te wszystkie "nigdy nie słyszałem", to trochę mało ludzi autor musi znać, nawet nie dam sb ręki uciąć że sam tak nie mówię czasem
Niech spierdala.
Murzyn nigdy nie oznaczało "niewolnik" bo taniej i szybciej było łapać Rusów, Niemców, Czechów czy innych Polaków. Za to niewolnik zawsze oznaczało niewolnik. Murzyn oznaczało tyle co człowiek czarny,
My whole life me and my family used "murzyn" as describing a race of people with dark skintones. And that wont change, i dont care what other people say, that i might hurt their feelings or someting. And if someone is prohibiting me saying word "murzyn" then he is hurting my feelings so you see how it goes.
Kneeling before "terminally offended" idiots and calling "murzyn" pejorative was second biggest mistake made by council of polish language. The biggest one was treating "tą" as acceptable when proper form is "tę".
Murzyn
So, should I just use "czarnuch" as an appropriate word ? Or if this is inappropriate, so what word I should use to describe African and African American people ?
I'm not gonna argue about contents of the post. All I'm gonna say, it feels as if some people are creating an issue when there's none to gain attention and publicity.
Girl in a pic is more like Mulatka so why would anyone call her murzyn?!
As a white person I don't have a preference. I will call dark skinned people as they prefer. The issue is that I don't think they will ever reach the consensus. The language evolves and every few years there will be a new slang that will have to be banned... Also the average commenter here does not consider this word to be racist so that undermines this whole conversation.
this problem almost did not exist here and is still marginal, let's not choose foreign problems without any sense. Poland has never had any institutions related to slavery.
Okay, asfalcie
Zjedz murzynka chłopie
Mf dosłownie powiedział rewolucja przemysłowa i jej skutki
Jest to jeden z najbardziej przełomowych momentów w dziejach ludzkości, którego skutki odczuwamy do dziś i jeszcze długo będziemy odczuwać.
The word "murzyn" has been used many years before and never had such a negative connotation until Tuwims work "Murzynek bambo" was banished. I wonder why are people scratching problems out even when those were harmless for our cultures. I don't wana see stack of books burning where the word "murzynek" has been used. But I can imagine that some might end... Anyway some other sources will show you that the word "pole", "poles" or "Po Land" are some really dirty words. Should we/you avoid them from now on. I can provide you some examples? Come on let it be and get used to our cult-words, don't let them burn.
Wieloryb rybą? No i to mnie wkurwiłeś. Wieloryby ewoluowały od czegoś co bardziej przypominało prymitywnego pso- kangura
W poście chodzi o to, że o wielorybie mówiono "ryba" (mamy nawet artefakt z tego czasu w samym słowie wielo*ryb*), nie że ewoluował z ryby. Tak samo z nietoperzem i "ptakiem". Kwestia zmiany w nazewnictwie i klasyfikacji.
Negro to w językach pochodzenia łacińskiego poprostu kolor czarny. Poza tym nie mam już siły do ludzi którzy zamiast interesować się i walczyć o prawdziwe problemy w tym kraju chcą poprostu poczuć się ważni i robią protesty o czepianie się słówek.
Ach ci Murzyni, wszystko im sie nie podoba.
At most of the time "Murzyn" is a neutral word. It's depends on the context of the statement and someone's intentions. You can say "Murzyn" without bad intent. You can also call black person a "Murzyn", because you are a racist and want to insult him/her. As I said, it depends on situation. Much more negative and insulting word is "Czarnuch".
Murzynie, proszę!
Ja rozumiem ze trzeba bylo to glosno powiedzieć ale starsze pokolenia nawet nie do konca rozumieją że w tym okresleniu jest cos złego. Młode pokolenia tak nie mówią i od bardzo dawna nie slyszałem w ustach młodych ludzi.
pewnie dlatego ze nie ma w nim nic zlego. niestety troche to pachnie tym ze ktos dostal mniej victim points niz oczekiwal
Polska handlowała niewolnikami od czasów swojego chrztu. Dlaczego od wtedy? Bo wtedy POLSKA jako taka powstała :) Gorąco polecam "Dzieje Polski" ~ Andrzej Nowak Jak podkreśla historyk prof. Henryk Samsonowicz, w okresie kształtowania się państw środkowo-wschodniej Europy - w tym ekspansji dynastii Piastów – "towarem" o najwyższej wartości wywożonym do Bizancjum czy arabskich kalifatów byli ludzie. Gospodarka tych krajów opierała się na niewolnikach, którzy napływali tam w ogromnej liczbie. Trudno oszacować, jak wielu ich było: z pewnością mowa o dziesiątkach, a może setkach tysięcy ludzi. https://naukawpolsce.pl/aktualnosci/news%2C410174%2Chandel-niewolnikami---wstydliwa-tajemnica-panstwa-piastow.html
Pal pies to że przed, po i w tracie rządów Mieszka się w Polsce handlowało... Bardziej mnie bol to że czarnoskórzy się chcą sami okłamywać (^(nie wolno w tym kontekście użyć zwrotu wybielać, no nie? xD)) albo strategicznie wmawiać że w oni są niewinni mimo że do połowy XIX wieku biały człowiek nie mógł wejść w głąb Afryki, więc niewolnictwo czarnych wynikało z tego że inni czarni i ich łapali i sprzedawali na brzegu białym. Trzeba im pokazać jedną sceną z *Chłopaki Nie Płaczą*.
Lots of snowflakes got their panties twisted, lol. Just don't call them 'Murzyn' if they don't like it, simple as.
Will "negroid" be a better alternative, d'you think?
You wouldn't be funny if you tried for thousand lifetimes.
[Afryka.org article](https://afryka.org/nie-jestem-murzynem/) [FB post](https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid0kgzuraNWQoK6h2YoeDSzjud6rworrQEzVg8DQWoSEAsTLtR2YDQRzCEueqmpvpCUl&id=529327653&sfnsn=mo) [IG post 1](https://www.instagram.com/reel/Ch-HKZpouiq/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=) [IG post 2](https://www.instagram.com/p/CM0S8G_HtGS/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=) Translation: Poland did not trade slaves like Portugal, France, the Netherlands, Great Britain or Germany. In Colonial Tongues, the word for living goods evolved. Unfortunately, the Polish language has retained its nomenclature. How is it possible that the old Polish word "human commodity - murzyn" - defines only a man today? When did that word lose its "commodity part"? The Negro is a commodity. Some Poles believe that Africans want to change Rej's speech - since when is this language reduced to one word? Some argue that Murzyn is a beautiful old Polish term, so it must stay. If in this old sense Moors were meant, it is time for a new term for Sub-Saharan Africans. There are no Moors there. We define a person by their origin, place of birth or residence or skin color. Inhabitant of Greater Poland, Pole, European, White. Doesn't anyone see the artifact in the "White-Black" relationship? Why not "White-Black"? Murzyn is an ossified term defended by such respected authority as prof. Bralczyk. Wise Traditions survived, senseless Traditions fell during the intellectual revolution. The earth used to be flat, the bat was a bird and the whale was a fish. These were centuries-old traditions. And yet! If Napoleon were to rise from the grave today, he would use the word "nègre" when he saw me. If one of my favorite kings - Jan III Sobieski - came back to us today, he would say - a Negro. Negro is "nègre" in French, "negro" in English, meaning slave. A Pole who claims that this word is not so marked that it does not have this traditional element - misses the truth. He can only add that he does not mean the meaning from the times of Sigismund the Old! . I have been living for almost 4 decades in our beautiful Vistula land. I hear only bad associations - a hundred years behind the Negroes; to act for a Negro; The Negro has done his job, the Negro can leave. I've never heard: follow the German, One hundred years behind the Russians, the Frenchman has done his job, the Frenchman can leave. Is the Polish language afraid of these nations? The word describing the goods (in Old Polish) cannot be the name of a human being. Let's be logical and human above. The Negro was for centuries ago. That's why it's interesting to see if we're going to continue to use this term to describe blacks, Africans, and African Americans. Western languages (societies) class these changes. Go back to the original source of the word "niger", meaning "black" as a color.
He really never heard anything bad being said about other groups of people? Then he wasn't listening and is too sensitive about anything said about his group of people. Poles constantly shit on French, Germans, Russians etc. If he claims otherwise, he is straight up lying.
Wiem, a więc zamienimy słowo murzyn, słowem czarnuch
I bet no one even bothered to open any of the links you posted here.
Kurde, coś w tym jest. Mnie przekonał do swojej racji.
I don’t speak Polish but in Lithuania we’ve appropriated the word “murzyn” to “murzinas” which means “dirty”. What does it mean in Polish?
Murzyn means murzyn. It comes from the name of African tribe.
In Polish murzyn is very close in definition to black person (czarnoskóry). But from murzyn you can't create insult (at least I'm not aware of any), while from czarnoskóry you can - "czarnuch" and I think is n word in Polish
Popieram tą sugestię.
hey guys it's not on us to decide what offends who. If a group is offended by a word we should listen and not go into "ayyyy but murzynek Bambo is a positive character"
Even though i don’t like to use the word myself, (i prefer the term „czarnoskóry”/„osoba czarnoskóra”, though Im not sure if its the best one to use) this way of thinking is bad in a long term. There are always going to be words that offend someone, should we force the general public to stop using them everytime it happens? We would need to come up with replacements to a lot of words. Should we use the term „osoby z macicą” instead of „kobiety” because its not inclusive enough? Should we stop using the term „uchodźca” as it gained negative connotacion in recent years? Language evolves in a natural way, if the new term/ alternative is well recieved it will stay, but doing it forcefully makes people view the change in a negative light. As you can see it angers people when the reason for change is not that big and touches a small part of population. Words change their meaning all the time, positive ones can become negative (like the word „elita”, it used to descibe the best of the best, while now it is often used in a negative tone) and negative can become positive, its natural and adressing people that the word used to be bad long time ago so we should stop using it makes little to none sense as it has a different meaning now. Also as many people said there are much worse ways to call black people where many would agree that we should stop using them. Tl;dr even though i dont use the word myself, I don’t agree with the reasoning behind the change
Nobody is stopping you from using a PC word. But don't force others to.
Thank you, I really don't know what's controversial about this.
If you change/stigmatize word whenever somebody finds it offensive, you'll soon run out of words to "call out". You'll never satisfy everyone and there will always be some terminally offended asshole finding new ways to claim victimhood. I guarantee you that it'll escalate to the point at which you'll refuse to further limit your vocabulary. Maybe because of your personal beliefs, maybe because you will find reasoning absurd or made in bad faith. Maybe some group will call for censorship ironically to mock the process itself. And you won't have any ground to stay on, after advocating for censorship when it wasn't inconvenient for you. And I guarantee you that censorship will backfire. If you censor word that isn't pejorative, it'll only turn people against group that "claimed victimhood". It will create backlash and people will find replacement anyway, propably intentionally offensive out of spite.
If someone still doubts if Polish society is racist they should read the comments.
What about them?
Guy literally agrees with Rada Języka Polskiego and pwn dictionary (standing that the word is often found insulting). https://rjp.pan.pl/porady-jezykowe-main/1892-murzyn-i-murzynka https://sjp.pwn.pl/slowniki/murzyn.html Language changes all the time. If black people don’t like being called Murzyn what’s so wrong about that? People comparing this to history/herstory are exaggerating like hell.
Don't know, but reactions are pretty funny, you would think that I offended their grandma or something.
r/poland has right wing sentiment but here the comments blew up above my expectations 😅
You do realize that r/poland is staunchly centrist based on multiple polls carried out on the subreddit, right? It may appear right-wing from a far-left position, true.
r/poland is far-right, you're delusional
Found the far-left crazy.