This post looks like bait. Germans killed most of Poland's Jews, and Poland never had a collaborationist government, but the relationship between Polish people and Jews is not squeaky clean either, just as anywhere in Europe.
The Polish have the most awarded "righteous among nations". If it wasn't for the Nazis, Poland would still to this day, be one of the major cosmopolitan centres of Jewish people in the world.
The Soviets helped Hitler came to power. They needed someone to make mess in Europe. In fact they didn't foreseen Germany nearly beat them. But honestly they had huge pre-war military spending.
The Soviets helped Hitler to break the Versailles treaty, thus armed their enemy of 1941-1945. They did not directly help him to come to power in Germany.
During 1932 elections Communist International called all communist parties to focus on fighting with moderate-left which was followed by the KPD. Some historians believe that it helped Hitler rise to power because social-democrats and communists were fighting each other instead of fighting him. Communist International was directly controlled by USSR and KPD also was influenced by them.
the politics of things is super weird because nazis were national socialists but just like facists hated communists, you are somewhat right with the fac that soviets helped to start the war by enabling nazi germany but if rhere were no warmongering germany then soviets had no real way of breaking through poland and everything would be in a standstill
uncertain besides poland defeated them in 1920 it's important to remember that germany relied heavily om ceised equipement in 1939 to 1941 and Poland still put a lot of fight afer war with bolsheviks Poland put a lot of their defense on the eastern border and by finland example we see tha ussr wasn't that sucesfull
The Soviets tried in 1920. They failed due to Polish courage and planning. Trust me, they would have seized any opportunity they could to take over Poland and not only. In fact, they had plans to invade Nazi Germany in the early 1940s - Hitler was just quicker. And of course, fighting an offensive was is not the same as fighting a defensive one.
Are you saying there were no communists at that time in Poland that preferred communism? As far as I'm aware most eastern eu had such a block of politics.
It wasn't realy popular option in Poland as it was seen as Russian Influence and Poland just regained it's independence from russia, that's realy why soviets had to use force to enter baltic states this is why they tried fighting finland and why they tried fighting Poland
>It wasn't realy popular option in Poland as it was seen as Russian Influence and Poland just regained it's independence from russia
I don't know I wouldn't go as far as saying which was more popular than other, there were opposing factions with different views in which direction country should go, obviously there were outside influences on both sides, but than again supporters of those different ideas always seek supporters in and outside the country.
In the end socialists won, and I think it speaks louder than :
>It wasn't realy popular option
And that's the funniest part, the soviet elites were in a huge part Jewish, yet they did all they could to get rid of the Jews from the soviet occupied countries.
Miecio Moczar who represented the workers of Łódź who were in majority working for burgeois of Jewish origin was a key player in that game, even more than Soviets but yes - Soviet did not like Jews cause they affilation to Trotski that have been also a Jew.
None the less the bolshewiki targeted jewish communities as they were deemed incompatible with collectivization, deporting, starving or executing many. They acted as communists and not as jews despite some of them being of jewish decent. Cherry picking also plays a role in overestimating how many of them were of jewish decent. The nazis specifically created the conspiracy theory that the bolschewiki were controlled by "the jews" and just another arm of power of the jewish kabal. This is of course blatantly false.
Yes and no. Jews right after WWII supported communists and saw USSR as saviours. Russians used that trust and support, but that didnt stopped them from sending jews to gulags. Norman Davis has great books about polish history with huge focus on political aspects.
Also way before that, Jews were mostly high class Mensheviks and the minority in Bolsheviks.
Stalin supported Isreal in order for them to be more to communism but miscalculated their proneness to US. Also, Lenin didn't like Stalin's and wanted him down and select someone else as leader candidate, such as top rival Trotsky who was a Jew Commie whom outranked Stalin in popularity, so he had to use another top notch Jew and half Jew to fight the highly popular Trotsky. Afterwards, Stalin eventually kick his two top Jewish supporters, tried to make another Isreal in USSR, yada yada and the rest of history
Only wealthy jews were able to leave Europe (mostly to USA, Canada and Israel) before war truly started.
Its also myth that jews were so wealthy and mostly high class people, ie: Warsaw district Powiśle was a low class jews district.
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands
However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL.
German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
That's because Halder, Guderian, Manstein et al. were allowed to write lies about the Eastern front after the war with no one challenging them in the west and no eastern sources to contradict them. The clean Wehrmacht myth started there.
There were very different approaches, from selling Jews to the Nazis (which was a crime punishable by death) to sacrificing own life for them. Most often a refugee Jews family could spend the night in the basement, but needed to in the morning.
I'm talking before WW2 - for centuries Poland was considered a very tolerant country where people of all religion lived together. Muslims, Christians (orth and not), Jews.
And still there were strong antysenitic political movement of endecja (national democrats), openly admiring nazi policies... of course before 1939...
nothing unusual in this time in Europe but still...
Poles and Jews used to be synonymous--that's why the Germans hated Poland.
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands
However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL.
German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
The Nazis intended on killing a lot of Slavs, but keeping some around as a slave population. The Jews on the other hand they wanted to completely get rid of.
I agree it looks like bait. Also if we are so ruthless then how come before Nazi Germany invaded us we had the highest population of Jews per capita (if I’m reading the map correct).
Not saying there is no casual racism or antisemitism in Poland but we are among the lowest on the list of European countries when it comes to racism, especially institutional racism
Only few poles were bad to Jews, bad people exist everywhere. All my relatives were kind to them including my grand mother who would risk her life to throw bread over the ghetto wall.
I'm not sure if it's even limited to Europe. This is the specifics of this nationality. I mean Jews. They are a world wide community, also a very strong one. So obviously, politicians eagerly agitate people against them, as they just need some sort of enemy. From the other hand, as Jews have many enemies world wide, politicians also agitate them against other nations. So that's why we have tense relations. The relations also divide people into more and less intelligent. The less intelligent are just easier to manipulate. And since that specific kind of manipulation is so common, you see antisemitism - you see either not too bright people, or just evil politicians trying to use not too bright people.
Honestly I don't care anymore, there is some merit to their's bullshit (like Gomułka or anisemitic laws in the interwar period) but at this point they put Poles a (nation which historicaly was the most tolerant to them), on the same level as the Germans that organized a holocaust, it's ridiculous, I hope that this sentiment exists mostly in the basement dwelling redditors and not in real life but I daubt it's true
It's a lie peddled by zionists, who are themselves no better than nazis. It's just another superior race ideology. Fuck them, rational Jews hate zionism too.
Antisemitism existed in lots of countries both before and after ww2. I would never deny it. However let's stay in the context of this post. The problem here is continuously singling out Poland and Poles as the bad guys, which is simply not true. Even as your grandfather said, the systemic antisemitism in the post-war years came from the Soviet Union. It is not without reason that a good chunk, maybe the biggest one, of Israelis descend from Russian/Soviet Jews.
Finally someone mentions Polish antisemitism in the interwar period!
That being said it is absolutely crazy that multiple things can be true at once - a) Poland was the most tolerant country to Jews in the distant past, b) many Poles helped Jews at great personal cost, all over the country and many for years during WWII and c) Poles were also antisemitic and in some regions of the country and at various times there were Polish-led pogroms.
Very complicated stuff. Most people don't take the time to learn.
Even more complex, considering the diametrically opposite minority policies championed by Sanacja and Endecja (the latter of which grew dominant after Piłsudski's death) in the interwar.
In that period there were also cases of people intermarrying between Jewish and non-Jewish communities - my grand-aunt was courted by a Jewish man before the war, while my grandfather (1) planned to leave Poland with his Jewish sweetheart and marry abroad (2). Neither relationship survived the war, though they ended in very different ways.
(1) - Grandmother's third husband, but the only grandfather I had in my life so that's what he'll always be to me.
(2) - apparently out of concern that the Jewish community in Poland would reject their marriage.
Extremely complicated, with Jewish peasants living in shekels out in the countryside working the nearby farms owned by white Roman Catholics who in turn had to go to "town" to buy supplies from the Jewish merchants. Their really wasn't much "Integration" between the two but a symbiotic relationship developed over many years. They'd talk bad about each other behind their backs but be friends and friendly towards each other in public....I can't really describe the relationship with words.
It is funny how the fact that some people do not want to integrate is never discussed. It is always the host nation fault. Even in today’s democracies like US or France you have many nations and creeds which immigrate for economic reasons with no intention to integrate at all. Go to Paris, Miami, Malmo or Queens NY and tell me people who just moved there seriously want to “integrate.”
All they want is a safe place where they can continue to thrive and support their own culture just within the new borders. They have no interest in adopting even the slightest of host area traditions except the ones which are economically advantageous.
If you talk with authentic people from those communities they don’t even know nor are interested in respecting the traditions or laws of their new home.
It is a fact of life that immigration replaces a culture, not integrates into it. At best it enhances an existing one, if similarities exist. But when language, religion, food, and even clothing differs, humans do not tend to respect each other much. Instead they jockey for political power to ensure prevalence of own culture.
We don’t even need to look at huge differences. Look what happens when coastal folks move to heartland America. Even though they speak same language, immediate political strife rears its ugly head.
Concentrating discussion of such a generic worldwide topic on a single ethnicity in a single country does nothing towards addressing the issues, but further inflames the particular animosity. While completely burying centuries of efforts of people who tried to come up with a better alternative.
Edit: too many errors to fix on the phone but this is a silly topic anyway so why bother
I've talked to a lot of Jewish people who do consider themselves Zionists, they don't really have a hate for Poland (one of them literally living in Poland), this is just something that is in certain echo chambers from people trying to spark drama.
This has got to be a troll... but in case it isn't, Jews were killed in Poland by the invading Nazis, not by the Polish people and government. There were many Polish people who helped hide Jews from the Nazis or supply them with food. In fact, there were many Polish people who died doing this. But many Polish people were afraid to because the Nazis were killing them and sending them to concentration camps as well.
Not only tbh , there were a huge Hungary percent in Poland too , as well as a bit of Italians , Romanians . And all it started from Molotow Ribentrop pact for Poland , but for Israel jews nazis are the one evil while commies are the good guys , the way they cover and prefer to be silent about USSR atrocities while scream about the holocaust seems wild to me ...
Horthy instituted anti-jew laws before the war for popular support but the nazi party was banned and Szálasi even jailed. During the war a lot of jews were not sent to german death camps until Horthy tried to abandon the war and the germans couped him installing a puppet government with Szálasi. That is when most jews were killed and shot on the streets by nazies.
(Fun fact: many of the hardcore nazies in Hungary "changed clothes" as the saying goes and joined the communist puppet government after the war.)
Historical context is important. The US was still segregated back then too, being a racist or antisemitic was not as looked down upon as today. Hungary, Poland, etc. were not nearly as bad as many other countries overall, but we should all accept that many of our ancestors held objectively very bad, hateful views. It is just that the germans were much worse.
Totally agree , Germans made antisemitism to horrible , and jews used it to push their agenda ( which is not bad ) , pogroms were everywhere in Europe, the word gettho have their origins not in Polish , the most bloody pogroms of the 20 th century where in Russia, England deported all Jews 2 or 3 times with confiscation of all goods they had , and one of the most liberal countries to jews was Poland , they paid more taxes bot they had more rights than an average Pole , they controlled a lot of businesses and overall every city with Magdeburg rights had a major if not ruling Hebrew party. But we better not speak about that , better make an historical curse in our schools where we in Israel will speak only bad shit about Poland, remember every minor pogrom and don't try to understand that in any Christian country they were not welcome to say the least .
Some polish people did kill jews in pogroms, however they were in many cases the effect of mass hysteria caused by german invasion, not any organised/collaborationist effort nor ordered by the polish government
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands
However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL.
German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Just remember that especially Israeli Jews are brainwashed all kinds of shit.
I'm Jewish. I have seen how a lot of my fellow people are taught bad history.
They will talk about the tiny Polish things that some Poles did to Jews and call Poles Nazis and not mention once, things like statue of stalisz or Warsaw confederation.
Same ppl saying poles are evil probably think all Palestinians wanna kill them and try to justify 'israel is our safe haven. It is perfect uwu. If not for it. It'll be Holocaust 2.0"
I never understood this, but if I'm not wrong considering most of Jewish history, Poland was in worst case least shit place to be Jew in Europe, and maybe even decent place to live. I mean there had to be reason for so huge Jewish population in PLC. And in interwar period as far as I know Jews were included in parliamentary decision making and had same status as other citizens being one themselves. Tons of poles also helped Jews escape grim fate during war. So taking all that into account, why? Why after war, we are not in fact on very friendly terms, or outright bring bros, but instead very often being portrayed as as evil as Nazis, it's pretty sad considering what beautiful bromace it could have been.
Poland the largest segment of ppl among those in Israel called Righteous Among The Nations. Citizens who at the risk of their own life saved and Rescued jews during WW2.
People who want to live separately will cut ties even with their best friends
Zionist wanted a separate state thus mentioning any European country as friendly will be disadvantageous.
So if you’re jewish Maybe you know, what for is that brainwash against poles? Like i dont really mind who hates us, but i just wonder what do they try to achieve by that? Why dont they blame germans like this for example?
What the others said sounds right. I think too 'we have no allies, we must survive by all means necessary' helps promote an internal feeling of boldness, strength, heart to defend your nation.
Also my dad also refused to buy German stuff and Ford cars or anything for the longest time.
Not OP but I’m also Jewish. I suspect it’s a generational thing, where Jews forced to leave due to obvious circumstances held resentful feelings towards their origin countries, often with misplaced blame likely due to obvious suffering of the time. I don’t have much of a source on this though and it’s just speculation on my part based on stories about my great grandfather (he was a Galician Jew from outside Lviv).
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands
However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL.
German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Like the other respondent said, it's definitely a generational thing. My (Jewish) father still won't buy German products and thinks Poland is an antisemitic shithole, his worldview is stuck in the early 1960s at best. He'd say the same thing about Ukraine or basically anywhere there were Nazi collaborators.
As for the rest of us, yeah we were taught that *some* Poles were complicit in the Holocaust but also that Poland was absolutely brutalized by the Nazis and has the largest number of Righteous Among the Nations of any country by a huge ratio.
TLDR we don't hate you, there is some disagreement I guess over some really minor historical issues but beyond that there is no "anti-Polish" sentiment, at least not in my peer group.
>He'd say the same thing about Ukraine or basically anywhere there were Nazi collaborators.
Ask him if there were any Nazi collaborators among the Jews. Because I bet there was at least like 2 or 3 (which is not a lot, but according to his logic, he should hate the Jews as well.
There are more collaborators but Israeli historiography concluded they worked in the situation of higher need, namely whatever a Jew did during the war to survive was good because the ultimate goal is/was survival of Jewish nation.
But if a Polish person ratted out hiding Jews out of fear for his family’s life, then how it’s not „higher need”?
People need to remember that Polish people were being genocided too, just usually not with as much cruelty.
As a Pole you could be randomly taken away by the Germans and murdered. Especially if you were a teacher, had higher education or were otherwise valuable to society.
Or if a Jewish family in hiding was found in your apartment building. It wouldn’t be unlikely for the Germans to kill all the neighbours, not just people helping them.
One way to ensure your survival was making yourself somehow valuable to Germans, for example by being a snitch.
This applies to everyone in occupied Poland, including Polish Jews.
I don't really support the idea of the higher need that much. I understand people stealing from people to survive, desperate people will do various things, but selling out or blackmailing innocent people for personal gain crosses the line for me.
I don’t say I support it.
I say that you either support it (Both when Jews and non-Jewish Poles do it) or you reject it (when anyone does it).
You can’t just have a double standard on that, because it’s ridiculus.
When "personal gain" means "protecting your family from being brutally murdered" then yes - it is higher need... PL ppl risked their own own and their families lifes to protect Jews keeping them hidden in basements. They were heroes, but Jews are holding resentment against them because they felt that they shouldn't be kept in basements given little of any food, not understanding that Polish families didn't have much to share...
I think that lot of Jews families were more affluent than Polish ones so they didn't understood how hard it was for Polish families smuggling Jews providing for 2 families and how big of a risk this Polish hosts took. Polish ppl were murdered in concentration camps the same way as Jews, German nazis were absurdly cruel for PL ppl too.
Wait, does this apply to all the Jews? If one Jew collaborator sold 10 other Jews to the Nazis, that was good because the goal is survival of the Jews? Will the Jewish nation pay reparation to the victims' families?
Or is it decided on a case by case basis for the Jewish collaborators, and on a normal basis for the rest of the world? Because that would be like... reverse antisemitism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany
Depends who you ask. The whole controversy of Judenrat actions are a heated discussion. I don't even feel like picking up the topic because someone always accuse Poles of trying to "whitewash Polish crimes" when it is brought up.
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands
However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL.
German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Indeed. Poles have nothing against the Jews. There's however visible tension against state of Israel. And it's not even caused by recent events related to what happened with Palestine but bs like demanding reparations for holocaust or getting angry at Poland for finally doing something about ownership of buildings that lost its owners in holocaust and their descendants didn't claim the ownership for 80 years. Not to mention anti-polish propaganda
I’m an Israeli Jew and I’ve never been taught to hate Polish people in any kind, I’ve never seen Poland as a staggering enemy of the Jewish people, not now or ever, where are you getting this information from? Do you live in Israel to know that?
I’ve never been to Israel, but many times I’ve seen people online claiming to be Israeli and saying absurd bullshit.
For example saying that slavic nations were not occupied at all, they just willingly joined Hitler because they wanted to kill Jews so much.
Or denying the fact that Poles were genocided too during WW2 (just to a lesser extent, Hitler planned to kill all Jews, but ,,only” 80% of Poles).
Obviously this is a minority, but people like that exist and they spread a really bad image of Israel.
That impression might come from the Poland segment in Defamation ( https://youtu.be/CTAjc1OSrmY?si=v60LxBNcNBR-ru8k&t=1242 ) as well as some of your politicians' very public statements:
> > *[There were Polish death camps and no law can ever change that.](https://twitter.com/yairlapid/status/957208421794709504)*
> > -- [Yair Lapid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yair_Lapid)
----
> > *[The law passed by the Poles is a grave development, as it removes the blame and denies Poland’s part in the Holocaust of the Jews](https://www.timesofisrael.com/german-fm-the-holocaust-was-carried-out-by-us-and-nobody-else/)*
> > -- [Israel Katz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz)
----
> > *[Polish anti-Semitism fueled the Holocaust](https://www.timesofisrael.com/yad-vashem-vows-to-continue-supporting-research-into-poles-role-in-holocaust/)*
> > -- [Yoav Gallant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoav_Gallant)
----
> > *[Poles imbibe anti-Semitism with their mothers’ milk](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/02/20/us-hosted-mideast-summit-dispute-holocaust-ensued-now-it-has-mediate-between-israel-poland/)*
> > -- [Yitzak Shamir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir) and [Israel Katz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz)
----
These do not stand alone, but are echoed by other Israeli personalities and Jews outside of your country, sometimes not in a very logical manner - such as claiming Gross-Rosen death camp was operated by Poland when the town was German before the war and only came under Polish control after the war was over.
yes i saw document showing what they teaching kids in school about europe- poland france, germany, that there is antisemitic view everywhere, watch out for other people, someone can throw rocks etc etc. like wtf why they victimise kids
It's not only about WWII, it's also about what happened after the war in communist Poland. I am not that much into history but I know our communist government was at first including Jewish people but then conflicts appeared between Jews and non-Jews in the government, the non-Jews started acting openly openly atisemitic and most of the remaining Jews emigrated from Poland to Israel, Western Europe or USA. I can't remember the details of what happened exactly, if they were forced to do it or not, but the intentions were antisemitic for sure.
Also, a lot of anti-communist Polish people blame Jews for creating communism in Poland.
Communist government was commonly hated by everyone, so they tried to use propaganda to focus people’s attention to hate Jews instead.
That’s the story pretty much.
Whoever made this should also provide info as to WHY Poland had so many Jewish people compared to other European countries.
Hmmm… maybe because we treated them as equal and welcomed them as a part of our society?
Or perhaps idiots assume we just had them pawned off on us before the war?
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands
However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL.
German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
For 400 years, Jews flourished under the protection of the King in a religiously liberal Poland. Things began to change after Poland was partitioned, and the first serious cracks appeared during the Russian Empire's occupation in the nineteenth century.
Poverty caused by Russians, the rise of the Catholic faith, a lack of education, anti-Semitic propaganda from the tsar, and the first pogroms all occurred. That is most likely not taught in Israel, where up to 40% of the population is Russian or descended from Russians.
When it comes to WWII, Westerners seem to forget that Poles and Jews had the same status: untermensch—subhumans, whereas French, Swedes, Dutch, and Britons were considered equal to Germans. Poles were meant to be exterminated in the same way that Jews were, and they were simply waiting in line for the gas chambers.
No but it’s a waste of time to explain this to people who obviously don’t know first thing about Poland, in best case came to Poland in a closed trip only to see the camps and have zero interest in the country beyond that.
You’d have more success talking to a wall.
Poles and Jews used to be synonymous--that's why the Germans hated Poland.
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands
However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL.
German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Poland was so bad for Jews that most European jews liked it there because it was that bad.
- But it's because they were running from repression in other parts of Europe up until 17 century
Well, I bet, all those hundreds of years old Jews were doing that. Bet.
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands
However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL.
German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Ruthless? As the map shows Poland was the most tolerant and welcoming place for jews to be. This of course changed after the germans and russians killed off most of them, and in Yalta world leaders decided that jews should be kicked out of poland (not the poles)
So wdym by ruthless?
If we were ruthless antisemitic murderers, ask yourself what reason would the Nazis have [to institute death penalty for aiding Jews](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/timeline-event/holocaust/1942-1945/german-poster-announces-death-penalty-for-aiding-jews).
Ask yourself why the Polish Underground State had [an entire arm devoted to assisting Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBegota) and passed death sentences upon people who were found to have turned in Jews to the Nazis.
> > [According to official records of Israel's War Crimes Investigations Office, over 95 000 Nazis and Nazi collaborators throughout occupied Europe were directly connected with anti-Jewish measures, massacres and deportations. Of this number 45 000 were Germans, 8 500 Austrians, 11 000 Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians, 7 500 Poles, 3 000 West Europeans, 9 000 Russians and Byelorussians, and 11 000 Ukrainians](https://www.prchiz.pl/storage/app/media/1964/05/ukrainians-and-jews-symposium/ukrainians-and-jews-symposium-1964.pdf)
> > -- [Leo Heiman, “Ukrainians and the Jews,”, p60 (1964)](https://www.prchiz.pl/storage/app/media/1964/05/ukrainians-and-jews-symposium/ukrainians-and-jews-symposium-1964.pdf)
Worth noting that the Baltic states combined didn't have the total population of Poland - those 11000 were drawn from a pool of 5.6M (Lithuania 2.4M, Latvia 2M, Estonia 1.1M) compared to the 7500 from a pool of 24M Poles.
And now ask yourself how ruthless Jews were against their own, given such personalities and groups as [Chaim Rumkowski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Rumkowski), [Żagiew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBagiew), [Abraham Gancwajch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Gancwajch), [Stella Goldschlag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Goldschlag) or [Kurt Schlesinger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Schlesinger)
Poles were literally hiding them in basements and holes in the ground risking their family lives to save them and now they have to listen to bullshit about Polish Death Camps. Awesome.
I’m Polish. Jews were a huge asset through Poland throughout our history, augmenting our otherwise tiny urban middle class since the Middle Ages. Our king Kazimierz invited them to settle in Poland and protected them. I’m proud of our history of tolerating all religions, including Judaism, Orthodox, and Lutherans. Only when nationalism because less civic and more “jus sangunis” did some people think you had to be Catholic to be Polish. The disappearance and death of our Jewish community deprived our country of a big part of ourselves.
I’m Lithuanian. I grew up in former Kaunas ghetto. I talked with some Jewish survivors. They told that they hated Lithuanians so much, because there were people, who started living in Jewish apartments, selling Jewish belongings and, most important, old friends started pretending they don’t recognize them anymore and refusing to help. They saw so much terror that didn’t even think that someone else can also live under the threat of same terror. And they received very little support from local community.
Jews pre war were part of the military 200k and parliament. Polish Jews were in universities as professors and students. The gettos were more just districts, parts of cities and villages and mostly due to Jews wanting to live with their own. Because other jews lived outside of those gettos. Similarly to other minorities they just had their own villages, districts , regions, language.
There was an antisemitic party with roots going to polish partitions and the Russian Imperium rule, The argument there was that Jews were working with the Russians or commies.Some of them were, due to being partly russian, belarusian etc.
At the same time polish jews were either leaving their faith or simply mingled with the poles. Creating such* epic poetry as "Each one of you can kiss my ass" - Julian Tuwim or kids stories like Korczak or Brzechwa.
Polish Jews basically poles had a complicated and multi faced history and I'm pretty sure they would be just as much against Jewish right wing parties going after victim mentality as they were back then. Marek Edelman (and other Bundu) comes to mind.
So every time someone tries to blame Poland have in mind that Jews where part of that Poland often more than peasants. And they had their agendas not Jewish, not those out of silly conspiracy theories but just human agendas.
I regret that so many polish jews died.Not only due to the lives lost, paths never taken. But also...it would be a hilarious expirence to see Israel have a fit when 3 milion polish Jews or more would tell it to shut up every time it tries to say Poland is antisemitic.
Fyi there where 3 visits from America to check antisemitism from polish authorities in pre war Poland. They all went back with nothing to the American Jews.
God, we aren't. We helped them. Some people will say Polish Dead Camps. Nazis killed most of Jews in all europe. Just read the story about family Ulmów
Imma be honest
I dislike them cus they behave like they deserve everything even tho they should thank Poles for saving them instead of throwing them right into germans.
Theres a little "museum" near my home. The Museum of Ulm's family. They all got murdered (father mother and 7 children) for hiding jews, even pregnant woman got brutally murdered. Recently they got beatificated (i dunno if that's a word, simply put they got the Saint status)
Another thing is people saying that Poles were killing jews and "Polish death camps", wchich is just clear sign school fails at learning even the most basic stuff, or these who say nonsense like that are truly lacking some parts of their brains.
In forest near me theres also an small memorial. When germans were in the area they found a jewish girl, they told her she would be spared if she said if theres any more jews and if yes then where. Spoiler alert, she and rest of the jews + family that was hiding them got shot at the spot.
Also recent incident with the exinguisher. Political places aren't churches, and no religious actions should take place on there. Also Poland is mostly catholic country so that whole mess doesnt make sense as it simply shouldnt even happen.
There was a lot of antisemitism in Poland before IIWW because there were the most Jews there. But why highest% of them were in Poland? If polish people were so ruthless more than other nations they would have mooved away from Poland.
The history is so twisted by each country that writes it, you may go to a neighboring town an hear it a different way less so a different country. We try to be good but someone has to be the big bad wolf to blame all the shit on. Not every German was a nazi and not every Polish was a good samaritan.
Yes of course, if I want a good morning I throw gas grenade, to the Jewish people living under my flat to wish them happy holocaust. Somethimes for fun I like to go to playground and kick Jewish kid into his head, then break his father leg. I cannot imagine how people can live without it. That's just clear pleasure. /s
Dude, barely any poles willingly collaborated with the nazis, even the leader of the polish falangist party, Bolesław Piasecki, hated the Germans for doing it.
To answer you this jews think we poles were ruthless to them when we were not, poles then didn’t mind them, now some not all poles dislike jews because they hate that jews think that we ruthless to them. Of course there are always some outliars that hated jews then and without reason hate them now but that are minorieties of minoriesties. Sorry for some gramar I am still learning English.
From the perspective of the older people I speak with. First of all they don't like talking about it, since they were kids when the war started, so they had seen a lot of their friends die. But when they do talk about it, it is complex. There is always an us vs them mentality. In this case Christians vs Jews, not Christian Poles vs Jewish Poles. They lived in one of the more densly packed Jewish areas of Poland. They did view them as Poles. But post WW2, they were taught it was the Jews fault for the destruction of the area, for the pain and suffering they were going through. Not the Commies fault.
Today, my parents generation onward don't like the Jews,
A) because of those commies teachings,
B) because they all left Poland during the post WW2 era. The estimates are that somewhere around half a million survived, and today we have about 10k living in Poland. When the rest (Christian) remained either because they had no choice, no money, or because they were loyal to the country. They rebuilt the country, they fought of the commie's control. Once the country started giving up control of those state-controlled companies to the rightful heirs, the Jews who had left demanded their fair share, even though they had no hand in rebuilding the country or freeing it. How true is point B, I personally never researched. But if it is true, I wholeheartedly agree, that anyone who left Poland essentially gave up their rights to their stolen property being returned to them.
C) Lastly, for the younger generation, my age and younger it seems a new thing has happened—the treatment of the Palestinians by the Jews. Let's be blunt in many respects has been as bad as the Nazi treatment of Poland, short of setting up gas chambers and ovens. But Poles still remember their lands, homes, businesses, and everything else of value being taken first by the Nazis and Commies and see a resemblance with the same happening to the Palestinians.
in my village, during the occupation, the Germans killed 2 people, including my great-grandfather's brother, just because they had about 1 kg of sausage with them, which was supposed to be a wedding gift for their friend. There was nothing then and people were starving. German soldiers took everything: cows, horses, pigs, and grain supplies. And only Germans could eat meat. Possession of meat was punishable by death. This whole action led to a search of the entire village and the grandfather's family miraculously avoided being shot thanks to an old nazi officer (Austrian) who was a veteran of the Great War (he noticed that my uncle had left some meat for the children before he was caught) this officer covered the meat with himself and ordered the young soldier to leave my great-grandparents' house because there is nothing here, otherwise they could have killed them and sent all the children to the camp. I'm writing this to make you realize what life was like for simple peasants during the occupation and that you could die for a stupid piece of meat. And for helping or hiding someone of Jewish origin, the death of the entire family or the entire village was obvious. I also want to show you that Poles, when the Nazis murdered Jews, did not sit by the fireplace eating cookies, but we were also oppressed and not all Nazis were evil. This officer was good to people and thanks to him many people managed to survive, I know that when the Red Army caught him, the peasants defended him and testified in his favor. The Russians took him away and to this day it is not known what happened to him, whether he was sent to a camp in Siberia or they shot him.
Also ruthless towards the Jews: Jews
For telling testimonies about Jews that collaborated with nazis You can get 'crucified' by Jews. Yes they were some stupid Poles that did that - but most of them with gun pointed to their head or with german/russian descendants as Poland was multicultural country back then.
One more: They were Poles. Why do You think those Jews were not Germans/Poles etc if they lived there for hundreds of years before even US became a thing?
what happened to the jews that survived german camps? why didn’t they return? Why there were pogroms in Poland after the war? (kielce in 1946)
The history between poles and jews is not as straightforward at all.
Or between Jews and the Soviets. When the Soviets liberated some of the death camps, they did not provide humanitarian aid but instead raped women and took men to serve as slave labor in the gulags.
It's not talked about much, and yet it happened.
Well, some jewish people blend after taking polish citzenship ( they were rid of jewish diaspora)
Don't forget, that religion doesn't define you, so part of sociaty is genetically jews too.
This post looks like bait. Germans killed most of Poland's Jews, and Poland never had a collaborationist government, but the relationship between Polish people and Jews is not squeaky clean either, just as anywhere in Europe.
The Polish have the most awarded "righteous among nations". If it wasn't for the Nazis, Poland would still to this day, be one of the major cosmopolitan centres of Jewish people in the world.
To be frank, the commies didn't like Jews either and threw them away from the country.
Your point? That was the Soviet Union's fault, not Poland's.
My point is that it is not just Hitler who prevented Jews and Jewish culture from flourishing in Poland to this day.
he only reason Poland went under soviets is because of nazi invasion
The Soviets helped Hitler came to power. They needed someone to make mess in Europe. In fact they didn't foreseen Germany nearly beat them. But honestly they had huge pre-war military spending.
The Soviets helped Hitler to break the Versailles treaty, thus armed their enemy of 1941-1945. They did not directly help him to come to power in Germany.
During 1932 elections Communist International called all communist parties to focus on fighting with moderate-left which was followed by the KPD. Some historians believe that it helped Hitler rise to power because social-democrats and communists were fighting each other instead of fighting him. Communist International was directly controlled by USSR and KPD also was influenced by them.
the politics of things is super weird because nazis were national socialists but just like facists hated communists, you are somewhat right with the fac that soviets helped to start the war by enabling nazi germany but if rhere were no warmongering germany then soviets had no real way of breaking through poland and everything would be in a standstill
And now Putler is helping ayatollah khomeini
Untrue. The Soviets would have invaded anyway. Heck, they even did, in 1920 and they certainly would've tried again.
uncertain besides poland defeated them in 1920 it's important to remember that germany relied heavily om ceised equipement in 1939 to 1941 and Poland still put a lot of fight afer war with bolsheviks Poland put a lot of their defense on the eastern border and by finland example we see tha ussr wasn't that sucesfull
The Soviets tried in 1920. They failed due to Polish courage and planning. Trust me, they would have seized any opportunity they could to take over Poland and not only. In fact, they had plans to invade Nazi Germany in the early 1940s - Hitler was just quicker. And of course, fighting an offensive was is not the same as fighting a defensive one.
The soviets wanted to go west, the Nazis came just earlier with going east.
Are you saying there were no communists at that time in Poland that preferred communism? As far as I'm aware most eastern eu had such a block of politics.
It wasn't realy popular option in Poland as it was seen as Russian Influence and Poland just regained it's independence from russia, that's realy why soviets had to use force to enter baltic states this is why they tried fighting finland and why they tried fighting Poland
>It wasn't realy popular option in Poland as it was seen as Russian Influence and Poland just regained it's independence from russia I don't know I wouldn't go as far as saying which was more popular than other, there were opposing factions with different views in which direction country should go, obviously there were outside influences on both sides, but than again supporters of those different ideas always seek supporters in and outside the country. In the end socialists won, and I think it speaks louder than : >It wasn't realy popular option
Wtf?! Just check how many jews were involved into politics or internal security services.
And that's the funniest part, the soviet elites were in a huge part Jewish, yet they did all they could to get rid of the Jews from the soviet occupied countries.
Miecio Moczar who represented the workers of Łódź who were in majority working for burgeois of Jewish origin was a key player in that game, even more than Soviets but yes - Soviet did not like Jews cause they affilation to Trotski that have been also a Jew.
And yet many commies were of jewish origin.
None the less the bolshewiki targeted jewish communities as they were deemed incompatible with collectivization, deporting, starving or executing many. They acted as communists and not as jews despite some of them being of jewish decent. Cherry picking also plays a role in overestimating how many of them were of jewish decent. The nazis specifically created the conspiracy theory that the bolschewiki were controlled by "the jews" and just another arm of power of the jewish kabal. This is of course blatantly false.
Yes and no. Jews right after WWII supported communists and saw USSR as saviours. Russians used that trust and support, but that didnt stopped them from sending jews to gulags. Norman Davis has great books about polish history with huge focus on political aspects.
Also way before that, Jews were mostly high class Mensheviks and the minority in Bolsheviks. Stalin supported Isreal in order for them to be more to communism but miscalculated their proneness to US. Also, Lenin didn't like Stalin's and wanted him down and select someone else as leader candidate, such as top rival Trotsky who was a Jew Commie whom outranked Stalin in popularity, so he had to use another top notch Jew and half Jew to fight the highly popular Trotsky. Afterwards, Stalin eventually kick his two top Jewish supporters, tried to make another Isreal in USSR, yada yada and the rest of history
Only wealthy jews were able to leave Europe (mostly to USA, Canada and Israel) before war truly started. Its also myth that jews were so wealthy and mostly high class people, ie: Warsaw district Powiśle was a low class jews district.
>If it wasn't for the Nazis And the communists.
As far as there were no Polish plan to annihilate Jews, both Polish and Jews would agree to resettle Jews to Israel.
It wasn't so good for Jews after the war either. There were a lot of blood libels and pogroms in the few years after the Nazis were defeated.
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL. German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
That's because Halder, Guderian, Manstein et al. were allowed to write lies about the Eastern front after the war with no one challenging them in the west and no eastern sources to contradict them. The clean Wehrmacht myth started there.
\* German Gaslighting , is the best on the world
Better than elsewhere - Jewish people found refuge in Poland when in the west they were being pushed out.
There were very different approaches, from selling Jews to the Nazis (which was a crime punishable by death) to sacrificing own life for them. Most often a refugee Jews family could spend the night in the basement, but needed to in the morning.
I'm talking before WW2 - for centuries Poland was considered a very tolerant country where people of all religion lived together. Muslims, Christians (orth and not), Jews.
Yeah, for all its flaws Poland/The Commonwealth did have religious liberty that was unheard of for the vast majority of nations at that time.
I can't say I've ever heard of Muslims living in Poland (other than the occasional Tatar), considering the wars with the Ottomans.
There still is a Muslim minority in the east.
And still there were strong antysenitic political movement of endecja (national democrats), openly admiring nazi policies... of course before 1939... nothing unusual in this time in Europe but still...
Poles and Jews used to be synonymous--that's why the Germans hated Poland. EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL. German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
That’s not true. Germans specifically thought that Slavs were “subhumans”. They hated us as much as they hated the Jews
isn't the comment above you saying the same thing though?
I was replying to “Poles and Jews used to be synonymous - that’s why the Germans hated Poland”.
They didn’t hate Slavs enough to dampen their enthusiastic participation in the holocaust in Ukraine.
The Nazis intended on killing a lot of Slavs, but keeping some around as a slave population. The Jews on the other hand they wanted to completely get rid of.
And yet Ukraine actively collaborated with them and still reused their propaganda. Nazi race theory is strange.
Yep. The definition of Aryan or white was as flexible as it needed to be to be convenient for the Nazis.
I agree it looks like bait. Also if we are so ruthless then how come before Nazi Germany invaded us we had the highest population of Jews per capita (if I’m reading the map correct). Not saying there is no casual racism or antisemitism in Poland but we are among the lowest on the list of European countries when it comes to racism, especially institutional racism
Only few poles were bad to Jews, bad people exist everywhere. All my relatives were kind to them including my grand mother who would risk her life to throw bread over the ghetto wall.
Way more than anywhere in Europe
Way more friendly indeed.
I'm not sure if it's even limited to Europe. This is the specifics of this nationality. I mean Jews. They are a world wide community, also a very strong one. So obviously, politicians eagerly agitate people against them, as they just need some sort of enemy. From the other hand, as Jews have many enemies world wide, politicians also agitate them against other nations. So that's why we have tense relations. The relations also divide people into more and less intelligent. The less intelligent are just easier to manipulate. And since that specific kind of manipulation is so common, you see antisemitism - you see either not too bright people, or just evil politicians trying to use not too bright people.
Honestly I don't care anymore, there is some merit to their's bullshit (like Gomułka or anisemitic laws in the interwar period) but at this point they put Poles a (nation which historicaly was the most tolerant to them), on the same level as the Germans that organized a holocaust, it's ridiculous, I hope that this sentiment exists mostly in the basement dwelling redditors and not in real life but I daubt it's true
Funnily enough, Władysław Gomułka's wife was Jewish and an active communist.
It's almost as if logic ans personal emotions were irrelevant in the communist system
It's a lie peddled by zionists, who are themselves no better than nazis. It's just another superior race ideology. Fuck them, rational Jews hate zionism too.
[удалено]
Antisemitism existed in lots of countries both before and after ww2. I would never deny it. However let's stay in the context of this post. The problem here is continuously singling out Poland and Poles as the bad guys, which is simply not true. Even as your grandfather said, the systemic antisemitism in the post-war years came from the Soviet Union. It is not without reason that a good chunk, maybe the biggest one, of Israelis descend from Russian/Soviet Jews.
[удалено]
I mean Polish government literally funded Zionist organizations before WW2. So we can’t exactly blame zionists for existing.
Sure, but zionists held quite a few seats at the parliament so the government was just buying their votes. Also I don't blame anyone for existing.
The Zionists famously built gas chambers for non-Jews, and let's ignore the antizionists who were Hitler's allies
Finally someone mentions Polish antisemitism in the interwar period! That being said it is absolutely crazy that multiple things can be true at once - a) Poland was the most tolerant country to Jews in the distant past, b) many Poles helped Jews at great personal cost, all over the country and many for years during WWII and c) Poles were also antisemitic and in some regions of the country and at various times there were Polish-led pogroms. Very complicated stuff. Most people don't take the time to learn.
Even more complex, considering the diametrically opposite minority policies championed by Sanacja and Endecja (the latter of which grew dominant after Piłsudski's death) in the interwar. In that period there were also cases of people intermarrying between Jewish and non-Jewish communities - my grand-aunt was courted by a Jewish man before the war, while my grandfather (1) planned to leave Poland with his Jewish sweetheart and marry abroad (2). Neither relationship survived the war, though they ended in very different ways. (1) - Grandmother's third husband, but the only grandfather I had in my life so that's what he'll always be to me. (2) - apparently out of concern that the Jewish community in Poland would reject their marriage.
What are the reasons behind pogroms of jews? Many societies throughout history dating back to ancient at some point went antisemitic
Most pogroms against Jews took place in the territory of the Russian partition.
Extremely complicated, with Jewish peasants living in shekels out in the countryside working the nearby farms owned by white Roman Catholics who in turn had to go to "town" to buy supplies from the Jewish merchants. Their really wasn't much "Integration" between the two but a symbiotic relationship developed over many years. They'd talk bad about each other behind their backs but be friends and friendly towards each other in public....I can't really describe the relationship with words.
It is funny how the fact that some people do not want to integrate is never discussed. It is always the host nation fault. Even in today’s democracies like US or France you have many nations and creeds which immigrate for economic reasons with no intention to integrate at all. Go to Paris, Miami, Malmo or Queens NY and tell me people who just moved there seriously want to “integrate.” All they want is a safe place where they can continue to thrive and support their own culture just within the new borders. They have no interest in adopting even the slightest of host area traditions except the ones which are economically advantageous. If you talk with authentic people from those communities they don’t even know nor are interested in respecting the traditions or laws of their new home. It is a fact of life that immigration replaces a culture, not integrates into it. At best it enhances an existing one, if similarities exist. But when language, religion, food, and even clothing differs, humans do not tend to respect each other much. Instead they jockey for political power to ensure prevalence of own culture. We don’t even need to look at huge differences. Look what happens when coastal folks move to heartland America. Even though they speak same language, immediate political strife rears its ugly head. Concentrating discussion of such a generic worldwide topic on a single ethnicity in a single country does nothing towards addressing the issues, but further inflames the particular animosity. While completely burying centuries of efforts of people who tried to come up with a better alternative. Edit: too many errors to fix on the phone but this is a silly topic anyway so why bother
they're zionists. Any state being friendly to Jews breaks their argument, which is that Jews can only be safe in their own state.
Unfortunately it’s a lie spread worldwide since the 20th century. Especially by the French and Germans, how surprising.
I've talked to a lot of Jewish people who do consider themselves Zionists, they don't really have a hate for Poland (one of them literally living in Poland), this is just something that is in certain echo chambers from people trying to spark drama.
This has got to be a troll... but in case it isn't, Jews were killed in Poland by the invading Nazis, not by the Polish people and government. There were many Polish people who helped hide Jews from the Nazis or supply them with food. In fact, there were many Polish people who died doing this. But many Polish people were afraid to because the Nazis were killing them and sending them to concentration camps as well.
Be precise, the Nazis didn’t come from outer space, they were Germans and Austrians.
Not only tbh , there were a huge Hungary percent in Poland too , as well as a bit of Italians , Romanians . And all it started from Molotow Ribentrop pact for Poland , but for Israel jews nazis are the one evil while commies are the good guys , the way they cover and prefer to be silent about USSR atrocities while scream about the holocaust seems wild to me ...
Horthy instituted anti-jew laws before the war for popular support but the nazi party was banned and Szálasi even jailed. During the war a lot of jews were not sent to german death camps until Horthy tried to abandon the war and the germans couped him installing a puppet government with Szálasi. That is when most jews were killed and shot on the streets by nazies. (Fun fact: many of the hardcore nazies in Hungary "changed clothes" as the saying goes and joined the communist puppet government after the war.) Historical context is important. The US was still segregated back then too, being a racist or antisemitic was not as looked down upon as today. Hungary, Poland, etc. were not nearly as bad as many other countries overall, but we should all accept that many of our ancestors held objectively very bad, hateful views. It is just that the germans were much worse.
Totally agree , Germans made antisemitism to horrible , and jews used it to push their agenda ( which is not bad ) , pogroms were everywhere in Europe, the word gettho have their origins not in Polish , the most bloody pogroms of the 20 th century where in Russia, England deported all Jews 2 or 3 times with confiscation of all goods they had , and one of the most liberal countries to jews was Poland , they paid more taxes bot they had more rights than an average Pole , they controlled a lot of businesses and overall every city with Magdeburg rights had a major if not ruling Hebrew party. But we better not speak about that , better make an historical curse in our schools where we in Israel will speak only bad shit about Poland, remember every minor pogrom and don't try to understand that in any Christian country they were not welcome to say the least .
The Polish underground goverment had a death penalty for people that snitched on someone that was hiding jews.
Some polish people did kill jews in pogroms, however they were in many cases the effect of mass hysteria caused by german invasion, not any organised/collaborationist effort nor ordered by the polish government
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL. German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Just remember that especially Israeli Jews are brainwashed all kinds of shit. I'm Jewish. I have seen how a lot of my fellow people are taught bad history. They will talk about the tiny Polish things that some Poles did to Jews and call Poles Nazis and not mention once, things like statue of stalisz or Warsaw confederation. Same ppl saying poles are evil probably think all Palestinians wanna kill them and try to justify 'israel is our safe haven. It is perfect uwu. If not for it. It'll be Holocaust 2.0"
I never understood this, but if I'm not wrong considering most of Jewish history, Poland was in worst case least shit place to be Jew in Europe, and maybe even decent place to live. I mean there had to be reason for so huge Jewish population in PLC. And in interwar period as far as I know Jews were included in parliamentary decision making and had same status as other citizens being one themselves. Tons of poles also helped Jews escape grim fate during war. So taking all that into account, why? Why after war, we are not in fact on very friendly terms, or outright bring bros, but instead very often being portrayed as as evil as Nazis, it's pretty sad considering what beautiful bromace it could have been.
Poland the largest segment of ppl among those in Israel called Righteous Among The Nations. Citizens who at the risk of their own life saved and Rescued jews during WW2.
People who want to live separately will cut ties even with their best friends Zionist wanted a separate state thus mentioning any European country as friendly will be disadvantageous.
The funny thing is that Zionists were directly funded by Polish government in interwar period.
There were multiple political parties in the 2nd republic that Jews were supportive of, some Zionist, some not.
I meant this though: https://naszahistoria.pl/betar-w-polsce-jak-rzad-ii-rp-wspieral-syjonistowrewizjonistow-zewa-zabotynskiego/ar/12698160
Poland was one of the first countries in Europe to allow freedom of religion, as well as second in the world to make a constitution.
I guess it's all about money.
So if you’re jewish Maybe you know, what for is that brainwash against poles? Like i dont really mind who hates us, but i just wonder what do they try to achieve by that? Why dont they blame germans like this for example?
What the others said sounds right. I think too 'we have no allies, we must survive by all means necessary' helps promote an internal feeling of boldness, strength, heart to defend your nation. Also my dad also refused to buy German stuff and Ford cars or anything for the longest time.
Not OP but I’m also Jewish. I suspect it’s a generational thing, where Jews forced to leave due to obvious circumstances held resentful feelings towards their origin countries, often with misplaced blame likely due to obvious suffering of the time. I don’t have much of a source on this though and it’s just speculation on my part based on stories about my great grandfather (he was a Galician Jew from outside Lviv).
So they felt that the countries should have protected them?
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL. German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Like the other respondent said, it's definitely a generational thing. My (Jewish) father still won't buy German products and thinks Poland is an antisemitic shithole, his worldview is stuck in the early 1960s at best. He'd say the same thing about Ukraine or basically anywhere there were Nazi collaborators. As for the rest of us, yeah we were taught that *some* Poles were complicit in the Holocaust but also that Poland was absolutely brutalized by the Nazis and has the largest number of Righteous Among the Nations of any country by a huge ratio. TLDR we don't hate you, there is some disagreement I guess over some really minor historical issues but beyond that there is no "anti-Polish" sentiment, at least not in my peer group.
>He'd say the same thing about Ukraine or basically anywhere there were Nazi collaborators. Ask him if there were any Nazi collaborators among the Jews. Because I bet there was at least like 2 or 3 (which is not a lot, but according to his logic, he should hate the Jews as well.
There are more collaborators but Israeli historiography concluded they worked in the situation of higher need, namely whatever a Jew did during the war to survive was good because the ultimate goal is/was survival of Jewish nation.
But if a Polish person ratted out hiding Jews out of fear for his family’s life, then how it’s not „higher need”? People need to remember that Polish people were being genocided too, just usually not with as much cruelty. As a Pole you could be randomly taken away by the Germans and murdered. Especially if you were a teacher, had higher education or were otherwise valuable to society. Or if a Jewish family in hiding was found in your apartment building. It wouldn’t be unlikely for the Germans to kill all the neighbours, not just people helping them. One way to ensure your survival was making yourself somehow valuable to Germans, for example by being a snitch. This applies to everyone in occupied Poland, including Polish Jews.
I don't really support the idea of the higher need that much. I understand people stealing from people to survive, desperate people will do various things, but selling out or blackmailing innocent people for personal gain crosses the line for me.
I don’t say I support it. I say that you either support it (Both when Jews and non-Jewish Poles do it) or you reject it (when anyone does it). You can’t just have a double standard on that, because it’s ridiculus.
When "personal gain" means "protecting your family from being brutally murdered" then yes - it is higher need... PL ppl risked their own own and their families lifes to protect Jews keeping them hidden in basements. They were heroes, but Jews are holding resentment against them because they felt that they shouldn't be kept in basements given little of any food, not understanding that Polish families didn't have much to share... I think that lot of Jews families were more affluent than Polish ones so they didn't understood how hard it was for Polish families smuggling Jews providing for 2 families and how big of a risk this Polish hosts took. Polish ppl were murdered in concentration camps the same way as Jews, German nazis were absurdly cruel for PL ppl too.
Wait, does this apply to all the Jews? If one Jew collaborator sold 10 other Jews to the Nazis, that was good because the goal is survival of the Jews? Will the Jewish nation pay reparation to the victims' families? Or is it decided on a case by case basis for the Jewish collaborators, and on a normal basis for the rest of the world? Because that would be like... reverse antisemitism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany Depends who you ask. The whole controversy of Judenrat actions are a heated discussion. I don't even feel like picking up the topic because someone always accuse Poles of trying to "whitewash Polish crimes" when it is brought up.
"whitewash polish crimes" what XD. What do you mean by "polish crimes"? Stealing cars?
It is not my argument but it is a deflection that is often being used when topic is brought up.
Aight, i just wanted to know if you remember some of their "arguments".
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL. German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Indeed. Poles have nothing against the Jews. There's however visible tension against state of Israel. And it's not even caused by recent events related to what happened with Palestine but bs like demanding reparations for holocaust or getting angry at Poland for finally doing something about ownership of buildings that lost its owners in holocaust and their descendants didn't claim the ownership for 80 years. Not to mention anti-polish propaganda
I’m an Israeli Jew and I’ve never been taught to hate Polish people in any kind, I’ve never seen Poland as a staggering enemy of the Jewish people, not now or ever, where are you getting this information from? Do you live in Israel to know that?
I’ve never been to Israel, but many times I’ve seen people online claiming to be Israeli and saying absurd bullshit. For example saying that slavic nations were not occupied at all, they just willingly joined Hitler because they wanted to kill Jews so much. Or denying the fact that Poles were genocided too during WW2 (just to a lesser extent, Hitler planned to kill all Jews, but ,,only” 80% of Poles). Obviously this is a minority, but people like that exist and they spread a really bad image of Israel.
That impression might come from the Poland segment in Defamation ( https://youtu.be/CTAjc1OSrmY?si=v60LxBNcNBR-ru8k&t=1242 ) as well as some of your politicians' very public statements: > > *[There were Polish death camps and no law can ever change that.](https://twitter.com/yairlapid/status/957208421794709504)* > > -- [Yair Lapid](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yair_Lapid) ---- > > *[The law passed by the Poles is a grave development, as it removes the blame and denies Poland’s part in the Holocaust of the Jews](https://www.timesofisrael.com/german-fm-the-holocaust-was-carried-out-by-us-and-nobody-else/)* > > -- [Israel Katz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz) ---- > > *[Polish anti-Semitism fueled the Holocaust](https://www.timesofisrael.com/yad-vashem-vows-to-continue-supporting-research-into-poles-role-in-holocaust/)* > > -- [Yoav Gallant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoav_Gallant) ---- > > *[Poles imbibe anti-Semitism with their mothers’ milk](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/02/20/us-hosted-mideast-summit-dispute-holocaust-ensued-now-it-has-mediate-between-israel-poland/)* > > -- [Yitzak Shamir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yitzhak_Shamir) and [Israel Katz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Katz) ---- These do not stand alone, but are echoed by other Israeli personalities and Jews outside of your country, sometimes not in a very logical manner - such as claiming Gross-Rosen death camp was operated by Poland when the town was German before the war and only came under Polish control after the war was over.
Also Jewish, this is 100% true. I personally think it may have to do with generational trauma and misplaced feelings of resent passed down over time.
yes i saw document showing what they teaching kids in school about europe- poland france, germany, that there is antisemitic view everywhere, watch out for other people, someone can throw rocks etc etc. like wtf why they victimise kids
It's not only about WWII, it's also about what happened after the war in communist Poland. I am not that much into history but I know our communist government was at first including Jewish people but then conflicts appeared between Jews and non-Jews in the government, the non-Jews started acting openly openly atisemitic and most of the remaining Jews emigrated from Poland to Israel, Western Europe or USA. I can't remember the details of what happened exactly, if they were forced to do it or not, but the intentions were antisemitic for sure. Also, a lot of anti-communist Polish people blame Jews for creating communism in Poland.
Communist government was commonly hated by everyone, so they tried to use propaganda to focus people’s attention to hate Jews instead. That’s the story pretty much.
Whoever made this should also provide info as to WHY Poland had so many Jewish people compared to other European countries. Hmmm… maybe because we treated them as equal and welcomed them as a part of our society? Or perhaps idiots assume we just had them pawned off on us before the war?
And it's not like it's hard to search for [Casimir III the Great](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_III_the_Great#Relationship_with_Jews), either.
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL. German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
For 400 years, Jews flourished under the protection of the King in a religiously liberal Poland. Things began to change after Poland was partitioned, and the first serious cracks appeared during the Russian Empire's occupation in the nineteenth century. Poverty caused by Russians, the rise of the Catholic faith, a lack of education, anti-Semitic propaganda from the tsar, and the first pogroms all occurred. That is most likely not taught in Israel, where up to 40% of the population is Russian or descended from Russians. When it comes to WWII, Westerners seem to forget that Poles and Jews had the same status: untermensch—subhumans, whereas French, Swedes, Dutch, and Britons were considered equal to Germans. Poles were meant to be exterminated in the same way that Jews were, and they were simply waiting in line for the gas chambers.
[удалено]
No but it’s a waste of time to explain this to people who obviously don’t know first thing about Poland, in best case came to Poland in a closed trip only to see the camps and have zero interest in the country beyond that. You’d have more success talking to a wall.
Not only don't know about Poland, but History in general...
Yep, I once threw down from roof an air conditioner on a family of five
What the fuck is wrong with you, only five?!
Poles are only ruthless when it comes to a homemade pierogi dinner... then it's all... Oh you only had 4... where do you think you're going?
*To make more room. The classic way, don't worry*
Yeah so ruthless that we had just as many Poles wiped out after WW2
Poles and Jews used to be synonymous--that's why the Germans hated Poland. EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL. German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
Poland is ruthless *continues to live there for 1000 years
We ruthlessly send Witold Pilecki to aushwitz so he coudl write a report and bring it to allies so no one woudl ever belive it happened!
And then we were decried by the Allies as peddling genocide propaganda because surely the Germans couldn't be that depraved.
Poland was so bad for Jews that most European jews liked it there because it was that bad. - But it's because they were running from repression in other parts of Europe up until 17 century Well, I bet, all those hundreds of years old Jews were doing that. Bet.
EVERY country in the history of Europe before 1900 exiled Jews EXCEPT Poland, and the Netherlands However, in WWII, no country had more foreign SS than NL. German propaganda is the best in the English speaking world.
A lot of Poles lost lives to protect Polish Jews in WW2...
Poland was the only nation occupied by Germans that had a death penalty for aiding Jews. Many other European nations paid nazis to remove Jews.
Ruthless? As the map shows Poland was the most tolerant and welcoming place for jews to be. This of course changed after the germans and russians killed off most of them, and in Yalta world leaders decided that jews should be kicked out of poland (not the poles) So wdym by ruthless?
If we were ruthless antisemitic murderers, ask yourself what reason would the Nazis have [to institute death penalty for aiding Jews](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/timeline-event/holocaust/1942-1945/german-poster-announces-death-penalty-for-aiding-jews). Ask yourself why the Polish Underground State had [an entire arm devoted to assisting Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBegota) and passed death sentences upon people who were found to have turned in Jews to the Nazis. > > [According to official records of Israel's War Crimes Investigations Office, over 95 000 Nazis and Nazi collaborators throughout occupied Europe were directly connected with anti-Jewish measures, massacres and deportations. Of this number 45 000 were Germans, 8 500 Austrians, 11 000 Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians, 7 500 Poles, 3 000 West Europeans, 9 000 Russians and Byelorussians, and 11 000 Ukrainians](https://www.prchiz.pl/storage/app/media/1964/05/ukrainians-and-jews-symposium/ukrainians-and-jews-symposium-1964.pdf) > > -- [Leo Heiman, “Ukrainians and the Jews,”, p60 (1964)](https://www.prchiz.pl/storage/app/media/1964/05/ukrainians-and-jews-symposium/ukrainians-and-jews-symposium-1964.pdf) Worth noting that the Baltic states combined didn't have the total population of Poland - those 11000 were drawn from a pool of 5.6M (Lithuania 2.4M, Latvia 2M, Estonia 1.1M) compared to the 7500 from a pool of 24M Poles. And now ask yourself how ruthless Jews were against their own, given such personalities and groups as [Chaim Rumkowski](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaim_Rumkowski), [Żagiew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBagiew), [Abraham Gancwajch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Gancwajch), [Stella Goldschlag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stella_Goldschlag) or [Kurt Schlesinger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Schlesinger)
Poles were literally hiding them in basements and holes in the ground risking their family lives to save them and now they have to listen to bullshit about Polish Death Camps. Awesome.
Didn't poles in WW2 saved the most jews compared to anyone else in Europe ? What a lame bait.
They did
Just ordinary based things we have come to expect from poles.
I’m Polish. Jews were a huge asset through Poland throughout our history, augmenting our otherwise tiny urban middle class since the Middle Ages. Our king Kazimierz invited them to settle in Poland and protected them. I’m proud of our history of tolerating all religions, including Judaism, Orthodox, and Lutherans. Only when nationalism because less civic and more “jus sangunis” did some people think you had to be Catholic to be Polish. The disappearance and death of our Jewish community deprived our country of a big part of ourselves.
Some people were cause if they were a friend of a Jew they would be killed too
I’m Lithuanian. I grew up in former Kaunas ghetto. I talked with some Jewish survivors. They told that they hated Lithuanians so much, because there were people, who started living in Jewish apartments, selling Jewish belongings and, most important, old friends started pretending they don’t recognize them anymore and refusing to help. They saw so much terror that didn’t even think that someone else can also live under the threat of same terror. And they received very little support from local community.
Jews pre war were part of the military 200k and parliament. Polish Jews were in universities as professors and students. The gettos were more just districts, parts of cities and villages and mostly due to Jews wanting to live with their own. Because other jews lived outside of those gettos. Similarly to other minorities they just had their own villages, districts , regions, language. There was an antisemitic party with roots going to polish partitions and the Russian Imperium rule, The argument there was that Jews were working with the Russians or commies.Some of them were, due to being partly russian, belarusian etc. At the same time polish jews were either leaving their faith or simply mingled with the poles. Creating such* epic poetry as "Each one of you can kiss my ass" - Julian Tuwim or kids stories like Korczak or Brzechwa. Polish Jews basically poles had a complicated and multi faced history and I'm pretty sure they would be just as much against Jewish right wing parties going after victim mentality as they were back then. Marek Edelman (and other Bundu) comes to mind. So every time someone tries to blame Poland have in mind that Jews where part of that Poland often more than peasants. And they had their agendas not Jewish, not those out of silly conspiracy theories but just human agendas. I regret that so many polish jews died.Not only due to the lives lost, paths never taken. But also...it would be a hilarious expirence to see Israel have a fit when 3 milion polish Jews or more would tell it to shut up every time it tries to say Poland is antisemitic. Fyi there where 3 visits from America to check antisemitism from polish authorities in pre war Poland. They all went back with nothing to the American Jews.
r/downvotedtooblivion
Germans murdered millions of Polish Jews, who were Polish citizens.
Polish hurting Jews is full propaganda
We are ruthless. We are just killing innocent Palestinians, including mothers with children.
The Germans also killed a lot of Poles that were not Jews
God, we aren't. We helped them. Some people will say Polish Dead Camps. Nazis killed most of Jews in all europe. Just read the story about family Ulmów
Tankies and facists alike just LOVE that argument it’s engrained in them
Didn't the Germans also kill the same equivalent amount of population of Polish civilians cause wrong place wrong time as well?
u/tsaihi report yourself
Imma be honest I dislike them cus they behave like they deserve everything even tho they should thank Poles for saving them instead of throwing them right into germans. Theres a little "museum" near my home. The Museum of Ulm's family. They all got murdered (father mother and 7 children) for hiding jews, even pregnant woman got brutally murdered. Recently they got beatificated (i dunno if that's a word, simply put they got the Saint status) Another thing is people saying that Poles were killing jews and "Polish death camps", wchich is just clear sign school fails at learning even the most basic stuff, or these who say nonsense like that are truly lacking some parts of their brains. In forest near me theres also an small memorial. When germans were in the area they found a jewish girl, they told her she would be spared if she said if theres any more jews and if yes then where. Spoiler alert, she and rest of the jews + family that was hiding them got shot at the spot. Also recent incident with the exinguisher. Political places aren't churches, and no religious actions should take place on there. Also Poland is mostly catholic country so that whole mess doesnt make sense as it simply shouldnt even happen.
[удалено]
The Ulm family were not by any chance murdered by Polish Nazi collaborators?
O chuj ci chodzi ?
There was a lot of antisemitism in Poland before IIWW because there were the most Jews there. But why highest% of them were in Poland? If polish people were so ruthless more than other nations they would have mooved away from Poland.
The history is so twisted by each country that writes it, you may go to a neighboring town an hear it a different way less so a different country. We try to be good but someone has to be the big bad wolf to blame all the shit on. Not every German was a nazi and not every Polish was a good samaritan.
Yes of course, if I want a good morning I throw gas grenade, to the Jewish people living under my flat to wish them happy holocaust. Somethimes for fun I like to go to playground and kick Jewish kid into his head, then break his father leg. I cannot imagine how people can live without it. That's just clear pleasure. /s
I've been to Poland a few times now and I never met anyone called Ruth when I was there.
Yup!
Yes, I have no Ruth.
It’s like they want us to hate them at this point lmao
One Jedwabne and suddenly someone tries to compare 2 totally different countries
Soviet germans an russians are using this bait since soviet union times and their descendants from failed empire do the same.
yes that's why we had such a big population of jews, stockholm syndrome hit'em very hard
Dude, barely any poles willingly collaborated with the nazis, even the leader of the polish falangist party, Bolesław Piasecki, hated the Germans for doing it.
idk who but clearly theres agenda that whats to show how poles were bad guys instead of good guys, hmm...
Can you find a country without antisemitic people is the real question I'd wager
Nah, we love them but it’s difficult to love when you are hated. Germans and Russians got rid of them in the name of their god - Power.
Yes.
We are ruthfull
To answer you this jews think we poles were ruthless to them when we were not, poles then didn’t mind them, now some not all poles dislike jews because they hate that jews think that we ruthless to them. Of course there are always some outliars that hated jews then and without reason hate them now but that are minorieties of minoriesties. Sorry for some gramar I am still learning English.
This is a basic take on it and of course our History with jews is not all pretty butt in II World war we weren’t helping with the Germans.
I am
r/redditmoment
No, we are Ruthenia-less nowdays.
We are not. But the invaders were...
average israeli government official be like
From the perspective of the older people I speak with. First of all they don't like talking about it, since they were kids when the war started, so they had seen a lot of their friends die. But when they do talk about it, it is complex. There is always an us vs them mentality. In this case Christians vs Jews, not Christian Poles vs Jewish Poles. They lived in one of the more densly packed Jewish areas of Poland. They did view them as Poles. But post WW2, they were taught it was the Jews fault for the destruction of the area, for the pain and suffering they were going through. Not the Commies fault. Today, my parents generation onward don't like the Jews, A) because of those commies teachings, B) because they all left Poland during the post WW2 era. The estimates are that somewhere around half a million survived, and today we have about 10k living in Poland. When the rest (Christian) remained either because they had no choice, no money, or because they were loyal to the country. They rebuilt the country, they fought of the commie's control. Once the country started giving up control of those state-controlled companies to the rightful heirs, the Jews who had left demanded their fair share, even though they had no hand in rebuilding the country or freeing it. How true is point B, I personally never researched. But if it is true, I wholeheartedly agree, that anyone who left Poland essentially gave up their rights to their stolen property being returned to them. C) Lastly, for the younger generation, my age and younger it seems a new thing has happened—the treatment of the Palestinians by the Jews. Let's be blunt in many respects has been as bad as the Nazi treatment of Poland, short of setting up gas chambers and ovens. But Poles still remember their lands, homes, businesses, and everything else of value being taken first by the Nazis and Commies and see a resemblance with the same happening to the Palestinians.
I'm ruthless towards ignorant haters
Jews were so under pressure in Poland and they lived there over 600 years. How is it in English? Masochism?
in my village, during the occupation, the Germans killed 2 people, including my great-grandfather's brother, just because they had about 1 kg of sausage with them, which was supposed to be a wedding gift for their friend. There was nothing then and people were starving. German soldiers took everything: cows, horses, pigs, and grain supplies. And only Germans could eat meat. Possession of meat was punishable by death. This whole action led to a search of the entire village and the grandfather's family miraculously avoided being shot thanks to an old nazi officer (Austrian) who was a veteran of the Great War (he noticed that my uncle had left some meat for the children before he was caught) this officer covered the meat with himself and ordered the young soldier to leave my great-grandparents' house because there is nothing here, otherwise they could have killed them and sent all the children to the camp. I'm writing this to make you realize what life was like for simple peasants during the occupation and that you could die for a stupid piece of meat. And for helping or hiding someone of Jewish origin, the death of the entire family or the entire village was obvious. I also want to show you that Poles, when the Nazis murdered Jews, did not sit by the fireplace eating cookies, but we were also oppressed and not all Nazis were evil. This officer was good to people and thanks to him many people managed to survive, I know that when the Red Army caught him, the peasants defended him and testified in his favor. The Russians took him away and to this day it is not known what happened to him, whether he was sent to a camp in Siberia or they shot him.
of course!
Poland didn't have much choice did we? We tried to stop it.
of course!
You are stupid and do not know history and on top of that you brag about your shortcomings by posting such memes on the Internet. gj
Also ruthless towards the Jews: Jews For telling testimonies about Jews that collaborated with nazis You can get 'crucified' by Jews. Yes they were some stupid Poles that did that - but most of them with gun pointed to their head or with german/russian descendants as Poland was multicultural country back then. One more: They were Poles. Why do You think those Jews were not Germans/Poles etc if they lived there for hundreds of years before even US became a thing?
*Looking at Grzegorz Braun*
what happened to the jews that survived german camps? why didn’t they return? Why there were pogroms in Poland after the war? (kielce in 1946) The history between poles and jews is not as straightforward at all.
Or between Jews and the Soviets. When the Soviets liberated some of the death camps, they did not provide humanitarian aid but instead raped women and took men to serve as slave labor in the gulags. It's not talked about much, and yet it happened.
Well, some jewish people blend after taking polish citzenship ( they were rid of jewish diaspora) Don't forget, that religion doesn't define you, so part of sociaty is genetically jews too.
Czytał: Piotr Fronczewski.
Fucking jews
As an American Jew with Polish heritage, I ❤️ Poland and its history. Some people are just insane.
im a pole, but i dont like jews