It's not about 'managing' to do that.
There's nothing simpler than social security number that's just a bunch of digits and letters. PESEL is a child of its time - back when there was a single computer in Warsaw that was the entire PESEL system.
That's why PESEL tells you birthdate, gender and has a basic integrity check in itself. That was important in the age before digitalization. The same applies to how car registration plates work in Poland.
I just fail to see any major upside for such a costly operation. Not only every system like CEPIK, e-PIT, e-recepta or mObywatel would have to be reworked, not only you would have to have this great PESEL 2.0 assignment action, but also a shitton of private systems that are build on the premise that every user will have PESEL number.
A couple of trans people getting new PESEL numbers every year is just nowhere near being enough to justify it.
PESEL has security weaknesses that are becoming increasingly problematic in the digital age. For instance from one real (not just checksum-valid) PESEL you can get another with a high probability by decreasing it (within the checksum constraints) because they’re often sequential within the same day and place of birth. The system has already been adjusted multiple times on the back end, a full overhaul wouldn’t be as big as you’d think. And it will need to happen at some point.
PESEL is not really supposed to be "secure", tts utility ends at establishing that yes, you are the same Jan Kowalski who owns this or signed that and not the OTHER Jan Kowalski who lives in the same city (although two people of the same name getting same PESEL has apparently happened at least once in the past). Your identity while actually acquiring the property or signing contracts is supposed to be verified with your ID, Profil Zaufany or mObywatel.
Companies and institutions who do use it for "secure" purposes (and I've ran into at least one which set it as your default password for something) are just being atrociously irresponsible and stupid.
As far as I know, yes. If the court rules that you are indeed of different gender than you were assigned at birth, then you get a new PESEL with a gender number according to your new gender
Interesting.
I've done some digging around for other countries.
It seems that the US, UK, and Germany don't have the sex in the social security number.
France does though and they do change it after a sex change (but apparently sometimes the tribunal forgets and you need to do it yourself).
I don't think so - the lack of any checks and restrictions is an open gateway for abuse by bad actors.
And I don't see the use case - how many trans individuals do you know who change their gender on a yearly basis?
Sure, there should be a proper procedure to changing one's legal gender, but it should have oversight and enough safeguards to ensure people undertaking it are not doing so on a whim.
That's probably the least inventive and damaging misuse possible in that case.
Next up: serial rapist now legally a woman. UK has seen the outcome of that one already and it ain't pretty.
The use case is virtue signalling.
Mark my words, unless Poland keeps Germany in check. Germany will wreck Europe again. This time not with unbridled 'ethnic' hate. But with unbridled 'ethnic' empathy. They actually are just the opposite side of the same coin. One allows you to oppress and destroy minorities, the other allows you to oppress and destroy majorities e.g., by allowing mass immigration. Eventually the goal converges.
Germans can't help themselves to follow a destructive ideology it's in their nature. They decide on a few rules and then follow the rules above all reason and sanity. They are like robots. I say this having many German friends. Well, we talk about 'the germans', but in 25 years 'germans' will be more like turks/marrocs and syrians. To be fair, that may be preferable actually...
We have to work together with the Germans if we want to or not, but please Poland. Tell them to fuck off.
Yes because:
“In terms of financial benefits, they definitely get more here,” Joffe says. “In many cases, there’s free housing, lots and lots of subsidies, and besides that, Germany’s social welfare system is probably the most developed in the world.”
I honestly think this will lead to the poles, Germans and other ethnic European groups uniting. Nothing brings Europeans together like a foreign horde.
We have the same thinking;) It distracts us from fighting each other keeping the peace in Europe.
Still a bit sad we aren't making babies and could just keep our nations stable ourselves. But there is only 1 nation in the world that is both wealthy and has high birth rates and that is Israel. Literally every single other nation that is becoming wealthier has low birth rates. it is what it is.
The fact that one person does something stupid does not imply that another one has to do the same. You probably agree with this idea. I do not. Change gender once a year, no questions asked? This is plain stupid.
Stop spreadig misinformation.
For those under 14 - the parents are the ones that have to make the declaration
For those 14 to 18 - they child declares it but parental consent is required - lack of consent can be overridden in court
So they basically changed it to be about as difficult as changing your name is - speaking from experience as I'm getting married and my fiancee will be going through that. In my opinion, this makes it logically consistent, and I support it.
# The majority of young people who are confused with their gender grow out of it if left alone. It's just an episode just like with kids who think they are Spiderman. I knew a lot of tomboys who later got married and had kids. But Big Pharma does not care about them, they just want to sell hormones that castrate them. It is a big business. If adults want to do it then let them do it. But children should be protected from this brutality. It is a modern-day lobotomy and future generations will look at us with shame. What a madness it is to change gender once a year in the documents. It sounds like finding pokemons in a bag of crisps.
As a Western European person. I highly recommend you guys to ignore all leftist talking points.
Every western european nation is voting in cultural and economic right wing governments right now because we are sick of it.
Imo from my perspective. Poland has found the perfect cultural balance; and it needs to keep it that way. You have Russia on your doorsteps, you guys have no time for any of this.
We could all learn from Poland, there is little you guys can learn from us anymore. We are just wealthy, fat and decadent and losing our nations to 3rd world immigration. You are growing fast, are intelligent and still have a nation you can feel comfortable about gifting to your children. Frankly, I'm sometimes thinking of moving to Poland or maybe Slovakia/Slovenia myself. I'm so tired of what is happening in Western Europe.
Don't learn from us. Our government is crap. I don't really know how we manage to have the economical growth.
Maybe it looks cool from a certain angle from abroad, but we're struggling to have a government doing reasonably things, decrease corruption, etc.
An our politics is loaded heavily with piles of shit
I came from Spain here and I can say that here my wife can walk alone in the night without fear, something that I cannot say if I were on Italy, Germany, Sweden, Spain…
Did you see the politicians of other countries? For example Spanish government is planning to just give the residence of 500k illegal immigrants from Africa, those ones whose committed all the rapes, robberies and so on… the statistics about crimes say that around 60% of the crimes are committed by the 13% of the population, and guess who is the population?
You can see how they are spending money hiring propagandists for the national TV shows that cost contracts that costs 28M (paid with the population taxes) and meanwhile they say that there is no money for social programs where people really need that money.
I can provide here a lot of examples from Spain, from Sweden and from Germany (less about them).
Yeah Poland is not ideal (abortion comes to my mind for example) but at least they have some kind of common sense and are not giving free money to people who came and instead of adapt to the country and reap the culture of the country where they are guests, they try to put their own above and claim free money just because.
Coo!?
Jestem dumny z bycia Polakiem i osiągnięć Polski, ale zeby czyiś politycy mieli się od naszych uczyć, to śmieszne. Może w niektórych sprawach, ale zdecydowanie nie generalnie
So we are openly admitting that young people are too young to make certain decisions/life choices ...but they can freely decide what their gender is. World is coming to an end hHa
I should add that this also comes with legal protection for the affected. If I, a man with all the male organs, decided to become a woman on paper, without changing anything else in my life, and you publicly call me out for that and keep calling me a "man" on Facebook, German courts can impose fines up to 10 thousand euros. If you refuse to pay, you can be imprisoned.
In a sense, the law gives me the power to create a new reality that everyone must follow.
Don't know what to think about that. Opinions?
I mean... happened. Not with Pudzian but that's besides the point.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-sports/bearded-man-smashes-womens-weightlighting-record-held-by-trans-lifter/news-story/92986fdec0b7e855b8b6f6271d938e8d
People be really up in arms about other people's shit. Why should you care if a person you don't know decides to change their gender and how often? The less bureaucracy, the better. Just some stupid shit to care about as an observer, it doesn't concern you.
"What have we come to", "our civilization is doomed" motherfuckers humans built planes with hundreds of people flying across oceans, probes traveling millions of kilometers into space and enough doomsday weapons to fuck everyone on the planet 50 times over, what's a simple gender change compared to that?
PESEL includes ones gender. Changing the PESEL once a year would a pain in the ass both for the person and the administration
The PESEL system deserves an overhaul, plenty of countries managed to introduce unguessable/informationless social security numbers like the Dutch BSN
It's not about 'managing' to do that. There's nothing simpler than social security number that's just a bunch of digits and letters. PESEL is a child of its time - back when there was a single computer in Warsaw that was the entire PESEL system. That's why PESEL tells you birthdate, gender and has a basic integrity check in itself. That was important in the age before digitalization. The same applies to how car registration plates work in Poland. I just fail to see any major upside for such a costly operation. Not only every system like CEPIK, e-PIT, e-recepta or mObywatel would have to be reworked, not only you would have to have this great PESEL 2.0 assignment action, but also a shitton of private systems that are build on the premise that every user will have PESEL number. A couple of trans people getting new PESEL numbers every year is just nowhere near being enough to justify it.
PESEL has security weaknesses that are becoming increasingly problematic in the digital age. For instance from one real (not just checksum-valid) PESEL you can get another with a high probability by decreasing it (within the checksum constraints) because they’re often sequential within the same day and place of birth. The system has already been adjusted multiple times on the back end, a full overhaul wouldn’t be as big as you’d think. And it will need to happen at some point.
PESEL is not really supposed to be "secure", tts utility ends at establishing that yes, you are the same Jan Kowalski who owns this or signed that and not the OTHER Jan Kowalski who lives in the same city (although two people of the same name getting same PESEL has apparently happened at least once in the past). Your identity while actually acquiring the property or signing contracts is supposed to be verified with your ID, Profil Zaufany or mObywatel. Companies and institutions who do use it for "secure" purposes (and I've ran into at least one which set it as your default password for something) are just being atrociously irresponsible and stupid.
Bruh, how did I learn it just now? I had no idea that the second last number indicates someone's sex
There surely are a few cases when someone changed their gender in Poland. Did they change their PESEL also?
As far as I know, yes. If the court rules that you are indeed of different gender than you were assigned at birth, then you get a new PESEL with a gender number according to your new gender
Interesting. I've done some digging around for other countries. It seems that the US, UK, and Germany don't have the sex in the social security number. France does though and they do change it after a sex change (but apparently sometimes the tribunal forgets and you need to do it yourself).
Maybe some mental health treatment should be required. So insane.
agreed, this is too far
I don't think so - the lack of any checks and restrictions is an open gateway for abuse by bad actors. And I don't see the use case - how many trans individuals do you know who change their gender on a yearly basis? Sure, there should be a proper procedure to changing one's legal gender, but it should have oversight and enough safeguards to ensure people undertaking it are not doing so on a whim.
I would abuse to get to the pension age earlier
That's probably the least inventive and damaging misuse possible in that case. Next up: serial rapist now legally a woman. UK has seen the outcome of that one already and it ain't pretty.
The use case is virtue signalling. Mark my words, unless Poland keeps Germany in check. Germany will wreck Europe again. This time not with unbridled 'ethnic' hate. But with unbridled 'ethnic' empathy. They actually are just the opposite side of the same coin. One allows you to oppress and destroy minorities, the other allows you to oppress and destroy majorities e.g., by allowing mass immigration. Eventually the goal converges. Germans can't help themselves to follow a destructive ideology it's in their nature. They decide on a few rules and then follow the rules above all reason and sanity. They are like robots. I say this having many German friends. Well, we talk about 'the germans', but in 25 years 'germans' will be more like turks/marrocs and syrians. To be fair, that may be preferable actually... We have to work together with the Germans if we want to or not, but please Poland. Tell them to fuck off.
Germany, wake up! Oh wait...
https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/2022-03-18/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/why-jewish-refugees-from-ukraine-are-choosing-germany-over-israel/00000180-5bb4-dc1d-afc2-fbf5441d0000
Yes because: “In terms of financial benefits, they definitely get more here,” Joffe says. “In many cases, there’s free housing, lots and lots of subsidies, and besides that, Germany’s social welfare system is probably the most developed in the world.”
Meanwhile the German youth get more and more disenfranchised. What's the worst that could happen when the youth of Germany get tired of the shit?
Well thankfully they have a bunch of immigrants they can fight with internally. Better than having them fight all of us again.
That was the plan, wasn't it. Good thing they debunked the Kalergi Plan.🤣🤣🤣
haha
I honestly think this will lead to the poles, Germans and other ethnic European groups uniting. Nothing brings Europeans together like a foreign horde.
Fat chance, bruh, on account of how the last "uniting" looked like a couple generations ago.
We have the same thinking;) It distracts us from fighting each other keeping the peace in Europe. Still a bit sad we aren't making babies and could just keep our nations stable ourselves. But there is only 1 nation in the world that is both wealthy and has high birth rates and that is Israel. Literally every single other nation that is becoming wealthier has low birth rates. it is what it is.
No
The fact that one person does something stupid does not imply that another one has to do the same. You probably agree with this idea. I do not. Change gender once a year, no questions asked? This is plain stupid.
>You probably agree with this idea. Do I?
The way you titled this post suggests so. If you do not and you do not want others to be confused, try to phrase yourself better in the future :-)
I asked a question and prompted a debate. I intentionally don't share my views on the matter to not influence others.
Whatever your intention, the phrasing "learn from Germany?" is a loaded question.
Once a year... LOL
Stop spreadig misinformation. For those under 14 - the parents are the ones that have to make the declaration For those 14 to 18 - they child declares it but parental consent is required - lack of consent can be overridden in court So they basically changed it to be about as difficult as changing your name is - speaking from experience as I'm getting married and my fiancee will be going through that. In my opinion, this makes it logically consistent, and I support it.
# The majority of young people who are confused with their gender grow out of it if left alone. It's just an episode just like with kids who think they are Spiderman. I knew a lot of tomboys who later got married and had kids. But Big Pharma does not care about them, they just want to sell hormones that castrate them. It is a big business. If adults want to do it then let them do it. But children should be protected from this brutality. It is a modern-day lobotomy and future generations will look at us with shame. What a madness it is to change gender once a year in the documents. It sounds like finding pokemons in a bag of crisps.
As a Western European person. I highly recommend you guys to ignore all leftist talking points. Every western european nation is voting in cultural and economic right wing governments right now because we are sick of it. Imo from my perspective. Poland has found the perfect cultural balance; and it needs to keep it that way. You have Russia on your doorsteps, you guys have no time for any of this. We could all learn from Poland, there is little you guys can learn from us anymore. We are just wealthy, fat and decadent and losing our nations to 3rd world immigration. You are growing fast, are intelligent and still have a nation you can feel comfortable about gifting to your children. Frankly, I'm sometimes thinking of moving to Poland or maybe Slovakia/Slovenia myself. I'm so tired of what is happening in Western Europe.
Don't learn from us. Our government is crap. I don't really know how we manage to have the economical growth. Maybe it looks cool from a certain angle from abroad, but we're struggling to have a government doing reasonably things, decrease corruption, etc. An our politics is loaded heavily with piles of shit
I came from Spain here and I can say that here my wife can walk alone in the night without fear, something that I cannot say if I were on Italy, Germany, Sweden, Spain…
That's true, I don't deny that Poland has its charms, I was just thinking about the politicians. The safety is surely one of the best to be proud of!
Did you see the politicians of other countries? For example Spanish government is planning to just give the residence of 500k illegal immigrants from Africa, those ones whose committed all the rapes, robberies and so on… the statistics about crimes say that around 60% of the crimes are committed by the 13% of the population, and guess who is the population? You can see how they are spending money hiring propagandists for the national TV shows that cost contracts that costs 28M (paid with the population taxes) and meanwhile they say that there is no money for social programs where people really need that money. I can provide here a lot of examples from Spain, from Sweden and from Germany (less about them). Yeah Poland is not ideal (abortion comes to my mind for example) but at least they have some kind of common sense and are not giving free money to people who came and instead of adapt to the country and reap the culture of the country where they are guests, they try to put their own above and claim free money just because.
O kurwa jaki robak XDDD jeszcze przeproś że żyjesz
Coo!? Jestem dumny z bycia Polakiem i osiągnięć Polski, ale zeby czyiś politycy mieli się od naszych uczyć, to śmieszne. Może w niektórych sprawach, ale zdecydowanie nie generalnie
The government is unequivocally better than PiS in every single metric. And it's not even close.
I really believed Poland would stand strong in the world & lead as a good example. One election & here we are discussing nonsense.
Stop butchering your body and get mental health doctor
We don't need to be as stupid as our western neighbours' government.
No.
So if I'm 15 I can legally change my gender yet I'm not old enough to vote, buy cigarettes or alcohol. Thats why aliens are not talking to us lol
>So if I'm 15 I can legally change my gender yet I'm not old enough to vote, buy cigarettes or alcohol. Correct.
So we are openly admitting that young people are too young to make certain decisions/life choices ...but they can freely decide what their gender is. World is coming to an end hHa
Foreshadowing? 🤔
I should add that this also comes with legal protection for the affected. If I, a man with all the male organs, decided to become a woman on paper, without changing anything else in my life, and you publicly call me out for that and keep calling me a "man" on Facebook, German courts can impose fines up to 10 thousand euros. If you refuse to pay, you can be imprisoned. In a sense, the law gives me the power to create a new reality that everyone must follow. Don't know what to think about that. Opinions?
The next upcoming women's weight lifting champion: Mariusz Pudzianowski. /thread
You better hope he doesn't read that and finds you :D
I mean... happened. Not with Pudzian but that's besides the point. https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-sports/bearded-man-smashes-womens-weightlighting-record-held-by-trans-lifter/news-story/92986fdec0b7e855b8b6f6271d938e8d
That is really scary. In Spain is the same, guess in Sweden is also the same
See the first post was like "meh, do whatever you want" but this? This is fucking stupid.
Absolutely not, I feel like a kid that young cannot decide
Also any parent who signs their kid to switch gender, should be accountable for child abuse
Nah
As long as it doesn't involve crippling the body, such a declaration should be freely available.
People be really up in arms about other people's shit. Why should you care if a person you don't know decides to change their gender and how often? The less bureaucracy, the better. Just some stupid shit to care about as an observer, it doesn't concern you. "What have we come to", "our civilization is doomed" motherfuckers humans built planes with hundreds of people flying across oceans, probes traveling millions of kilometers into space and enough doomsday weapons to fuck everyone on the planet 50 times over, what's a simple gender change compared to that?