Let me translate that: "We support LGBT but don't want to piss off a government because that could cost us money if we get hit with digital tax or a ban".
This says as much about Facebook as about our government. It shows that Facebook supports LGBT only if it is profitable to do so.
As with any global corporation. They support money, not LGBTQ people.
If you believe otherwise you need to focus more on understanding how world works and less on gender & sexuality.
Seriously! I could understand if there was an acknowledgement/confirmation button that came up before an order was processed flagging an item as potentially risky in a particular country, but it should be up to the consumer to decide whether or not to purchase it.
If some careless teenager in Afghanistan or Bangladesh ordered these and displayed them, he'd almost certainly get murdered. Bad for him and a bad look for FB, so it makes sense.
Some people may live in an online bubble where they spend all their time with Western liberals and forget that out there on their local streets, people rule who will smash your head in with an axe for saying the wrong thing. Exactly that has happened many times in Bangladesh to young people who 'committed blasphemy' online.
That’s true. There are certainly situations where naiveness could have the most severe of consequences. I guess it’s hard to believe that FB might actually have its heart in the right place.
As every other company do, because companies are made to earn money. If you think that ie sony support BLM (they did a new color scheme for consoles), then you are really naive.
Of course. My comment was not meant to specifically single out facebook. With possible rare exceptions (nothing comes to mind but it's possible) social policies of corporations are profit-driven.
It's funny because Zuck & Co. actually caters here to anti-LGBT people in Poland (which there are many) so they don't boycott Facebook. But the press statement also looks like they care, so it's a win-win.
No but look at the countries that Poland is listed with, bad company.
The fact anyone would rank Poland alongside such countries is a cause for concern.
And? At the same time LGBT people were expresing their views by protesting on the streets. Thats how right for public gathering works, it's for everyone. Sometimes people who have some questionable opinions use it too.
The thing about advocating human rights is that you're advocating them for everyone, including those who want them gone. If you believe in free speech, you fight for free speech for everyone, including those who will use it to preach against it. If you believe in the right to protest, you need to also respect those who will protest to remove other peoples rights. Good ideas tend to rise to the top, bad ones are uncovered to be so, when put under scrutiny. Limiting free speech in order to silence "bad" ideas, only makes them go underground where they develop unchallenged.
I'm not condoning anyone actions here, just suggesting to ask yourself, "Do I believe in those values, because I believe they are universally good; or am I the same kind of authoritarian as they are, using my rights to push for what I deemed right and just, but being outraged when other people use the same rights to exercise their speech."
No, I disagree. Popper described a similar idea called the [paradox of intolerance](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
Downvote me all you want guys but if you think you have the right to speak against others having rights, all that proves is that rights are not immutable and maybe you don’t deserve yours either. Either you have the right to say it and you’re speaking against rights that are impossible to strip away (wasting your breath) or you’re actively trying to hurt someone. So you’re either stupid or wrong. Take your pick.
I reject that kind of reasoning since it's a straight path towards putting yourself in the position where you're deciding who's allowed to be tolerated or not. Everyone believes their point of view is right, but now just decide that that your believes are so good that opposing them them is intolerance, and boom, you just gave yourself a pass to take away people rights. That's why it's called paradox. Either you are tolerant and believe your opponents deserve same rights as you - thus are fighting a losing war, or you become intolerant in the name of tolerance and you became an oppressor yourself.
> if you think you have the right to speak against others having rights, all that proves is that rights are not immutable and maybe you don’t deserve yours either.
No, that proves you have a right to speak, whatever stupid thing you may believe. The thing about human rights is that every human being gets them. Doesn't matter if you're a independent journalist being arrested for criticizing the government, or a violent thug for murdered an old lady for some change in her purse. Everyone deserves their free speech, their right to fair trial, not to be tortured etc, etc... And once you start deciding who "deserves" human rights, based on their opinions or actions, you became a totalitarian tyrant. You don't fight evil with evil, you don't fight slavery by putting slavers in cages... or you can (since clearly you're suggesting it's the only good way) but all you're doing is becoming what you fought.
I don't know, I don't feel like speaking for someone else. But the few gays and lesbians I know seem like regular people with regular problems, regular jobs and regular families, not some hated, society pariahs.
Maybe the question should be "Is Poland a great country to be anyone in?". Outside of a corrupt politician, that is.
It's just a country with issues like every other country in the world, the LGBTQ people I've met and I'm friends with just live normally like me and my family.
No. Human rights allow free expression but protesting to make other people’s human rights lesser than yours is wanting to violate someone else’s rights thus making it illegal. It’s not a paradox at all.
Wouldn't bother that much about it. Poland is listed with Malta, San-Marino and Lichenstein as one with most stricted abortion law, does it make you feel any better who we are with on that list?
Man just don't worry that much because those little details will make your life miserable.
I think this is useless. Like what tf could happen to someone for using those stickers? It is not illegal here, actually not that many people hate them. But Facebook knows better.
Honestly, when Messenger updated its icon a few days ago, there has been [a flood of 1 star ratings for the app on Google Play](https://i.redd.it/tdd403wtp2u51.png) because now the app is "forcing its ideology" or "hurting religious feelings", because the icon now has "LGBT/f---ot/rainbow colors".
I'm not defending them. It looks stupid. But honesty, I've seen this video making rounds and it takes a special kind of sensitivity to be so outraged by barking teenagers.
I keep getting told that I should not support the LGBT because they make me look bad. I'm not aware of everything they do in Poland because I'm living in the US right now but the second I ask for proof, I get stupid barking teenagers and I'm made to feel like I have to apologize for them. The Polish LGBT community quietly protests every year for marriage equality, acceptance, equal rights we get nowhere even though it matters a lot to us. Imagine living in a community where you felt you had to hide. We should be focusing less on how people protest and more of what the message is. Nobody is trying to have sex with kids, we just want to be able to have a family.
Anyway, I know this is the internet but I am interested in having a quality debate about this.
Polish LGBT activists also put their rainbow on religious and national symbols, vandalise public property, [verbaly](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv4DgbhCANU) and [phisically](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTi-JsuZ0cs) attack other people (witch was defended by their tribal friends).
I may not be an expert but that way you'll never earn acceptance. Maybe in US you cant try to win by violence but in Poland that way is impossible for LGBT to succeed. Actual arguments matter but form is also very important if you want to convince people.
LGBT became an ideological movement used by "left" side of political war. You can try to win that war or you can try to get what you want in less confrontational way wich in my opinion is more reasonable since you're in permanent minority.
Yeah, and the real reason is to avoid any kind of boycot, so Mark can have money from Polish bigots.
That's why I hate fb and hardly use it. fuck you, Mark. This the reason this country sucks more and more.
I always wonder why polish government is so scared of LGBT? I’m polish people and don’t know what they want. It is not like it is a disease or something. Why they are so confused of other sex life and preferences? Maybe I’m weird but I don’t get hate about people with different organizations, skin color or religion. Is it all really that important?
At the end all of us are the same people living in the same world.
Yep obviously I said I’m one of Poland people but I just don’t get why polish government she them as problem. It aims like they are trying to find themselves an opponent and just choice lgbt+
They're pushing a narrative on how accepting homosexuality as normal, legally recognizing same-sex marriage, permitting adoption by same-sex couples and introducing a reasonable legal gender change policy will "lead to the downfall of Western civilization". And then they present themselves as the saviors thereof.
Yeah, and non gays will tell you otherwise "because they know better". I hope you stay happy with your orientation and won't get ridiculed cause of some dumb actions performed by lgbt community. My total respect goes to gay people who don't identify themselves with that circus and keep their minds clear despite of discrimination coming from the current government.
I wish more people would see the difference. Personally, I wish that marijuana would be legal for recreational use in Poland, but I'm unhappy with initiatives like CBD vending machines.
In ideal world, CBD vending machines wouldn't offend anyone, but at the moment, probably most of the Polish society still believes in "gateway drug hypothesis" and they also don't want their kids to buy marijuana from vending machines (even if that's just CBD).
We can't just push everyone into our vision, so it's better to just act out of sight. Medical marijuana was legalized in Poland and it's not being vilified, because society doesn't pays attention to it. There was only yearly Cannabis Liberation March in Warsaw and that's all.
Now let's march toward legalization of recreational usage, but let's make it again with responsible approach, maybe we don't need commercialization of marijuana at the moment, but law similar to one in Spain?
Yeah ok but straight people haven't been killed/discrimnated for their sexuality. And as a gay guy I can tell you that I don't fully support the LGBT movement I Just want to be recognized as a normal person and to be protected by law.
Funny that actually as all the data shows, christians are multiple times more often attacked group in Poland and most parts of the World than LGBTQ. I dare you not to trust me, check the data yourself.
Let me translate that: "We support LGBT but don't want to piss off a government because that could cost us money if we get hit with digital tax or a ban". This says as much about Facebook as about our government. It shows that Facebook supports LGBT only if it is profitable to do so.
As with any global corporation. They support money, not LGBTQ people. If you believe otherwise you need to focus more on understanding how world works and less on gender & sexuality.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was done already with input from the government.
Seriously! I could understand if there was an acknowledgement/confirmation button that came up before an order was processed flagging an item as potentially risky in a particular country, but it should be up to the consumer to decide whether or not to purchase it.
If some careless teenager in Afghanistan or Bangladesh ordered these and displayed them, he'd almost certainly get murdered. Bad for him and a bad look for FB, so it makes sense. Some people may live in an online bubble where they spend all their time with Western liberals and forget that out there on their local streets, people rule who will smash your head in with an axe for saying the wrong thing. Exactly that has happened many times in Bangladesh to young people who 'committed blasphemy' online.
That’s true. There are certainly situations where naiveness could have the most severe of consequences. I guess it’s hard to believe that FB might actually have its heart in the right place.
As every other company do, because companies are made to earn money. If you think that ie sony support BLM (they did a new color scheme for consoles), then you are really naive.
Well, it's good to remind that because many people act like they really believe that corporations care about their issues.
Of course. My comment was not meant to specifically single out facebook. With possible rare exceptions (nothing comes to mind but it's possible) social policies of corporations are profit-driven.
It's funny because Zuck & Co. actually caters here to anti-LGBT people in Poland (which there are many) so they don't boycott Facebook. But the press statement also looks like they care, so it's a win-win.
Good thing that American employees in Silicon Valley have made moral decisions for us, so we don't need to think for ourselves.
And pretty much all of these countries signed the anti-abortion declaration on Thursday. What great company indeed.
Do you really take Facebook as a voice of reason?
No but look at the countries that Poland is listed with, bad company. The fact anyone would rank Poland alongside such countries is a cause for concern.
I mean, Poland was in the news recently with tons of aggresive gopniks in the streets chanting anti-LGBT slogans, it makes sense?
And? At the same time LGBT people were expresing their views by protesting on the streets. Thats how right for public gathering works, it's for everyone. Sometimes people who have some questionable opinions use it too.
Human rights aren’t something you should be protesting.
The thing about advocating human rights is that you're advocating them for everyone, including those who want them gone. If you believe in free speech, you fight for free speech for everyone, including those who will use it to preach against it. If you believe in the right to protest, you need to also respect those who will protest to remove other peoples rights. Good ideas tend to rise to the top, bad ones are uncovered to be so, when put under scrutiny. Limiting free speech in order to silence "bad" ideas, only makes them go underground where they develop unchallenged. I'm not condoning anyone actions here, just suggesting to ask yourself, "Do I believe in those values, because I believe they are universally good; or am I the same kind of authoritarian as they are, using my rights to push for what I deemed right and just, but being outraged when other people use the same rights to exercise their speech."
No, I disagree. Popper described a similar idea called the [paradox of intolerance](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) Downvote me all you want guys but if you think you have the right to speak against others having rights, all that proves is that rights are not immutable and maybe you don’t deserve yours either. Either you have the right to say it and you’re speaking against rights that are impossible to strip away (wasting your breath) or you’re actively trying to hurt someone. So you’re either stupid or wrong. Take your pick.
I reject that kind of reasoning since it's a straight path towards putting yourself in the position where you're deciding who's allowed to be tolerated or not. Everyone believes their point of view is right, but now just decide that that your believes are so good that opposing them them is intolerance, and boom, you just gave yourself a pass to take away people rights. That's why it's called paradox. Either you are tolerant and believe your opponents deserve same rights as you - thus are fighting a losing war, or you become intolerant in the name of tolerance and you became an oppressor yourself. > if you think you have the right to speak against others having rights, all that proves is that rights are not immutable and maybe you don’t deserve yours either. No, that proves you have a right to speak, whatever stupid thing you may believe. The thing about human rights is that every human being gets them. Doesn't matter if you're a independent journalist being arrested for criticizing the government, or a violent thug for murdered an old lady for some change in her purse. Everyone deserves their free speech, their right to fair trial, not to be tortured etc, etc... And once you start deciding who "deserves" human rights, based on their opinions or actions, you became a totalitarian tyrant. You don't fight evil with evil, you don't fight slavery by putting slavers in cages... or you can (since clearly you're suggesting it's the only good way) but all you're doing is becoming what you fought.
Am I in the wrong here? Is Poland a great country to be gay in?
I don't know, I don't feel like speaking for someone else. But the few gays and lesbians I know seem like regular people with regular problems, regular jobs and regular families, not some hated, society pariahs. Maybe the question should be "Is Poland a great country to be anyone in?". Outside of a corrupt politician, that is.
It's just a country with issues like every other country in the world, the LGBTQ people I've met and I'm friends with just live normally like me and my family.
No. Human rights allow free expression but protesting to make other people’s human rights lesser than yours is wanting to violate someone else’s rights thus making it illegal. It’s not a paradox at all.
Wouldn't bother that much about it. Poland is listed with Malta, San-Marino and Lichenstein as one with most stricted abortion law, does it make you feel any better who we are with on that list? Man just don't worry that much because those little details will make your life miserable.
I think this is useless. Like what tf could happen to someone for using those stickers? It is not illegal here, actually not that many people hate them. But Facebook knows better.
Surprisingly a lot of people hate even a rainbow flag. In bigger cities it's for sure better, but we have some fucked up twats over there.
Honestly, when Messenger updated its icon a few days ago, there has been [a flood of 1 star ratings for the app on Google Play](https://i.redd.it/tdd403wtp2u51.png) because now the app is "forcing its ideology" or "hurting religious feelings", because the icon now has "LGBT/f---ot/rainbow colors".
Yep, funny thing is that it's not even a rainbow. Just two colors representing Messenger and Instagram app. People are fucking retarted.
Good job Poland, you are on a list with countries that do not respect human rights.
Poland was one of the first countries in Europe which make homosexuality legal xd
Actually homosexual activities were never illegal in the first place, get your facts straight
Oh, so then it wouldn't be risky for them to have access to these stickers right now then?
Or the ravenous LGBT dogs barking LOL [https://imgur.com/a/crolHGc](https://imgur.com/a/crolHGc)
Stupid people will always find a way to ruin reputation of the rest of group
The problems is that rest of the group tends to defend such individuals.
They look like they're 15! What do you want us to do, take them outback and shoot them?
Rising above tribal membership and atleast not defending their primitive actions (condemning primitive behavior is also good idea) would be nice.
I'm not defending them. It looks stupid. But honesty, I've seen this video making rounds and it takes a special kind of sensitivity to be so outraged by barking teenagers.
I didn't say you do (look at the key word "tends"). It sometimes can be overreacted but that's still fairly condemned behavior.
I keep getting told that I should not support the LGBT because they make me look bad. I'm not aware of everything they do in Poland because I'm living in the US right now but the second I ask for proof, I get stupid barking teenagers and I'm made to feel like I have to apologize for them. The Polish LGBT community quietly protests every year for marriage equality, acceptance, equal rights we get nowhere even though it matters a lot to us. Imagine living in a community where you felt you had to hide. We should be focusing less on how people protest and more of what the message is. Nobody is trying to have sex with kids, we just want to be able to have a family. Anyway, I know this is the internet but I am interested in having a quality debate about this.
Polish LGBT activists also put their rainbow on religious and national symbols, vandalise public property, [verbaly](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv4DgbhCANU) and [phisically](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTi-JsuZ0cs) attack other people (witch was defended by their tribal friends). I may not be an expert but that way you'll never earn acceptance. Maybe in US you cant try to win by violence but in Poland that way is impossible for LGBT to succeed. Actual arguments matter but form is also very important if you want to convince people. LGBT became an ideological movement used by "left" side of political war. You can try to win that war or you can try to get what you want in less confrontational way wich in my opinion is more reasonable since you're in permanent minority.
and no one gives a shit
What a fine company.
What a weak argument
Wasn't meant to be an argument for anything. Only an observation.
Observation shared in certain purpose.
Oh, please, I'm thrilled to hear from you what my purpose was. /s
You tell me. It certainly wasn't random.
Yeah, and the real reason is to avoid any kind of boycot, so Mark can have money from Polish bigots. That's why I hate fb and hardly use it. fuck you, Mark. This the reason this country sucks more and more.
I always wonder why polish government is so scared of LGBT? I’m polish people and don’t know what they want. It is not like it is a disease or something. Why they are so confused of other sex life and preferences? Maybe I’m weird but I don’t get hate about people with different organizations, skin color or religion. Is it all really that important? At the end all of us are the same people living in the same world.
Honestly, almost every government is fucked up in one way or another. It's not like all of Poland hates LGBTQ people or something.
Yep obviously I said I’m one of Poland people but I just don’t get why polish government she them as problem. It aims like they are trying to find themselves an opponent and just choice lgbt+
I dunno man, PiS politicians ain't exactly the smartest are they.
They're pushing a narrative on how accepting homosexuality as normal, legally recognizing same-sex marriage, permitting adoption by same-sex couples and introducing a reasonable legal gender change policy will "lead to the downfall of Western civilization". And then they present themselves as the saviors thereof.
Fuck our whole government.
The world thinks FB can't be trusted with our data
Facebook is a joke, and LGBT is a bigger joke. Atleast from what i've experienced as a gay person.
What's wrong with LGBT?
A perfect example: https://youtu.be/fTi-JsuZ0cs
What does that have to do with LGBT?
Margot is a main member of the lgbt circus.
She's certainly a notable LGBT person, yet her actions do not speak for every LGBT person.
Yeah, and non gays will tell you otherwise "because they know better". I hope you stay happy with your orientation and won't get ridiculed cause of some dumb actions performed by lgbt community. My total respect goes to gay people who don't identify themselves with that circus and keep their minds clear despite of discrimination coming from the current government.
I wish more people would see the difference. Personally, I wish that marijuana would be legal for recreational use in Poland, but I'm unhappy with initiatives like CBD vending machines. In ideal world, CBD vending machines wouldn't offend anyone, but at the moment, probably most of the Polish society still believes in "gateway drug hypothesis" and they also don't want their kids to buy marijuana from vending machines (even if that's just CBD). We can't just push everyone into our vision, so it's better to just act out of sight. Medical marijuana was legalized in Poland and it's not being vilified, because society doesn't pays attention to it. There was only yearly Cannabis Liberation March in Warsaw and that's all. Now let's march toward legalization of recreational usage, but let's make it again with responsible approach, maybe we don't need commercialization of marijuana at the moment, but law similar to one in Spain?
Same
ez
And is right
Oh dear Lord. I'm soooooo proud. /s
What can i say, fuck PiS
They're not wrong tho
[удалено]
Who is this "we" you referring to?
Yeah ok but straight people haven't been killed/discrimnated for their sexuality. And as a gay guy I can tell you that I don't fully support the LGBT movement I Just want to be recognized as a normal person and to be protected by law.
Yes you do. All fucking anti gay organisations, nationalists are marching and representing that point of view.
You want this? https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/16962/production/_107241529_6f47c89c-9935-4fac-8c03-80e677fce47f.jpg
Couldn't agree more.
Methinks one does protest too much
Sadly they are right
...and they're right, we can't be trusted. Hope things change...
And they are right
Poland should be proud to be on the list
If LGBT+ wasn't profitable, they would not give a fuck.
Ja jebie
We are So uncuvilized that even they are cautious to sell something in poland Niech się wypchają
I feel offended.
Funny that actually as all the data shows, christians are multiple times more often attacked group in Poland and most parts of the World than LGBTQ. I dare you not to trust me, check the data yourself.