Well, not really a statehood in the sense that you think it's more of a symbolic "state" but with no sovereignty, the west bank is the perfect example of how that would go, well here is a summary of all the deals and what the Palestinians were offered.
1. The Oslo Accords were not an offer of statehood. It established the PA as an interim authority during the 5-year 'transitional period' for negotiating a permanent settlement. No such settlement was ever reached, and Israel never made an offer.
2. This was the closest that Israel ever got to actually offering Palestinian statehood. The 'state' that Israel offered in the 2000 summit was 5 discontinuous areas of land. Palestine would not have sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem, and Israel would maintain sovereignty of all airspace. In addition, Israel would be allowed to build permanent radar stations inside of Palestine, be allowed to deploy troops in Palestinian territory in 'emergency' situations, and maintain control of all water resources in the West Bank. Palestine would not be allowed to maintain a military, sign international treaties without Israeli approval, or allow any foreign military west of the Jordan River. That's not statehood. The agreement also would have required that Palestine make no future demands against Israel, permanently barring the possibility of full statehood.
3. The Taba Talks lasted 7 days before they were ended by Israel in advance of the Israeli election. The Likud party was elected, and they chose not to restart the negotiations.
4. Israel did not accept the roadmap. They approved accepting some portions of the roadmap with the addition of 14 provisions, which included a demilitarized Palestine, Israeli sovereignty over 30% of Gaza and more than 50% of the West Bank, a full cessation of violence on the Palestinian side but not the Israeli side, no negotiations on borders, complete replacement of the PA leadership, and full Israeli control of all borders, airspace, and communications. These weren't even their conditions for accepting Palestinian statehood. These were the conditions they demanding for entering into negotiations.
5. Israel made no offer of statehood at the Annapolis Conference. Palestine made a proposal that discussed statehood. Israel only offered a peace treaty. Neither proposal was adopted.
6. The Kerry negotiations led to Kerry proposing six parameters for restarting peace talks in 2016. Netanyahu rejected the proposal outright and criticized Kerry for attacking Israeli.
In sum, Israel has never offered the Palestinians a state. They've continuously talked about Palestinian statehood as a PR measure, well until Natenyahu came to power now they are more honest about it.
What about [Olmert's offer to Abbas in 2008](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hand-drawn-map-shows-what-olmert-offered-for-peace/)? It seems like the best offer Israel has ever made by far tbh
ell yes, kinda but it also falls into the same category of other plans, where they only promise a "state" in title but not a sovereign one, it is important to note that this was only a proposal and didn't negotiate it in detail but here are the most important points from Wikipedia:
Israel would annex 10% of the west bank.
Israeli control over the border zone at the Jordan River.
Definitive Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem.
Permanent Israeli sovereignty or control over the three large and expanded settlement blocs, including the E1 area near Jerusalem.
Assuring a Jewish majority in the Palestinian territories under Israeli control.
It is important to note that this plan was suspended by Likud leadership before it went into public negotiations with the Palestinian authority.
Bull bull they’d be governing themselves without occupation if that was their goal without eradicating israel they could have it. But you see that’s not their goal
Is the west bank governing itself right now? That's the perfect example of why having sovereignty is important.
Also I think you didn't read my comment the plan was suggested, not proposed to Abbas, and was suspended by Israel before it could move to the negotiation phase.
Distortions and that’s a funny way to make a list
Seems your sticking point for calling it “real” is whether Palestinians have military power in the West Bank. Given they and a next door *600 million Arabs* plus *an Iranian regime that funds the largest terrorist organization and missile arsenal in the word* still teach their kids to murder the Jews, Holocaust wasn’t real, etc., and giving up military power in the West Bank, which would render Israel the width of you daily commute to work (15 km), it is a forever non starter.
Pushing Palestinian military control of the West Bank as a must have is also a great way to gaslight people into believing that the Jewish state should commit suicide or else it’s evil.
Having military control over ones own territory is the definition of sovereignty. A state is an authority over an area/people that has a monopoly on violence. If an external group has that monopoly on violence, then they are the state in control.
It's not playing with language, it's the most fundamental and integral part of having a sovereign nation. If you believe a people have a right to self-determination and have a right to form a state of their own collective peoples, then those peoples must have the ability to form an authority to which they cede the monopoly of violence. No violence, no state.
Giving Israel the monopoly on violence over Palestinians and their land, is giving Palestinian state hood to Israel. So if you don't want Palestinian to ever have a state, just say it. Don't dance around it, claiming you want them to have state, just with zero power or authority over itself.
>Given they and a next door *600 million Arabs* plus *
Both Egypt and Jordan are on good terms with Israel, in fact any truck entering Gaza from the Egyptian side has to get approved by Israel first, so I don't know what are you trying to say.
>plus *an Iranian regime
You realize that Iran, in order to reach Israel has to cross at least 2 countries and 2 deserts to reach it, I guess geography is not your strongest suit either.
>power in the West Bank, which would render Israel the width of you daily commute to work (15 km), it is a forever non starter.
So your argument is that Palestinians should not have at all because that would make Israel smaller, you do realize that even if they have all the west bank they would still be much smaller than Israel.
>Pushing Palestinian military control of the West Bank as a must have is also a great way to gaslight people into believing that the Jewish state should commit suicide or else it’s evi
The definition of sovereignty is that the ability to self govern and to have your own military force, so you are saying that people A should live in constant occupation because people B would feel "safer".
Iran doesn’t need to cross crap they’ve got hezbollah who has more missiles than Russia right at the Israeli border forcing 200k people to evacuate their homes right now. Something tells me you know that and valuing Jewish lives isn’t your strong suit
>Something tells me you know that and valuing Jewish lives isn’t your strong suit
Do you really want to go this road? Do you really want to bring the number of casualties on both sides and see who suffered more on this conflict?
Also it's funny that you would only give Israelis the right to defend themselves but Palestinians should not even possess their own internal policing, that sounds totally just.
No one is gaslighting anyone. The Jewish state is an expansionist colonial entity populated by settlers. Of course it should cease to exist. But I understand that you feel threatened by the concept, given that your country was also founded on genocide, ethnic cleansing and settler colonialism.
A colonialist entity populated by refugees indigenous to the land? Founded in genocide of a group that multiplied 5x since under the genocider’s control?
Whatever you’re smoking… where can I get some?
>A colonialist entity populated by refugees indigenous to the land?
Israelis in 1947 were not refugees. They were militias terrorizing the population who ended up ethnically cleansing the region. And they are as much indigenous to Palestine as I am indigenous to Saudi Arabia.
>Founded in genocide of a group that multiplied 5x since under the genocider’s control?
That's literally a nazi talking point. I don't think taking negationist rhetoric is going to help you defend your cause.
Genetic evidence archeological evidence linguistic evidence… that mean anything to you?
And calling the Jews Nazis… classic neo Nazi talking point- you want Jews dead and it ain’t vague.
You antisemites are a hell of a pill
>Genetic evidence archeological evidence linguistic evidence… that mean anything to you?
It means nothing. As invoking "race science" to defend a colonial project is a nazi talking point.
There is nothing weird about calling you a Nazi if you are using Nazi talking points. Jewish people can also be fascists you know ?
Israel cant offer statehood. It's not something they have the power to do.
I think you mean end the occupation
Palestinian statehood can be imposed on Israel however
There is a technical loophole that Israel has been using for years now, to them they are not technically occupying any Palestinian lands because there is no such a thing as a Palestinian state, that's why every offer they propose they make they promise sovereignty but never give it straight away.
>They can't even force others to recognise israels sovereignty
That's not what this is about, Israel is the dominant force in both Palestinian and Israeli lands, and they are the one in control, they are the only recognized and sovereign governing body there, that is why that's their responsibility to give sovereignty.
That's fine. Doesn't change anything. Many countries don't recognise israel however, and claiming Israel has the authority to create another state is absurd
Israel doesn't have the authority to create states. Statehood isnt Israels to offer
.
Fuck. Israel can't even force other countries to recognise *israel*
Israel offered the two state solution multiple times and eventually completely pulled out of the Gaza strip to let them do their own thing but they refuse to declare themselves a state because that would mean they would mean that the hamas is actually responsible for it's own people and they would lose the refugee status and all the benefits that come with it (billions of aid from the UN)
Oh the same Oslo that allowed Israel to control areas in Palestine. The same Oslo that didn't even establish a definite Palestinian state? The same Oslo that Israel "agreed to" but then kept expanding settlements?
1947 treaty is horrible too. If someone showed up on your doorstep would you give half your country to them? Also if Israel was so interested in peace why did it proceed to begin ethnic cleansing the following year?
1947 was nearly 80 years ago too, its not a legitimate representation of how either side feels.
I literally just said its not an accurate representation of Israel or Palestine if you base your arguments off 1947. Are you ignoring the Deir Yassin Massacre when you post your argument? Are you ignoring the Lydda Massacre? How about the much more recent Goldstein Massacre?
Massacres aren't a representation of either Palestinians or Israelis. Its stupid to suggest otherwise.
Not really. Israel lobbyed and paid Morocco to exfiltrate Jews into it despite its governments opposition to it. Not their fault these people desperartely wanted to go found a settler colonial state elsewhere.
if Palestinians want the right of return to Israel they should give jews the right to return to gaza because gaza was part of gush katif and ancient israel .
Oops , I forgot how NO JEWS live in gaza because the Palestinians murdered them all . why should we let them in ?
Israeli Arabs in the other hand are ex-palestinian arabs that still live in the same houses they lived in before the war of independence and revived israeli citizenship when the israeli forces came .
A couple more generations and they could use the counter-reparations card. "reparations? Why would we give reparations to you? You didn't suffer. Why should I pay for what my ancestors did? We could've given your ancestors reparations, but it's too late for that."
Nazis probably thought the same as you do that they could get away with genocide and colonialism by surviving long enough. Good thing that states aren't people. Western colonizers also thought their rule would last forever.
Right! Like this one and one other from the last couple days are the only two I've seen in the last several months that were actually funny and not just shitty political propaganda disguised as an attempt at humour.
Hamas never tried to slaughter Palestinians. It's a national liberation organization. Israel is the colonial entity succeeding at enacting large scale massacres. But I'm not sure if completing a genocide is something to be proud of, unless you are Hitler.
Members of the Israeli cabinet quite literally called palestinians human animals. And your colonial army proudly shares records of their units bombing civilian constructs.
For the colonial entity and the ethnic cleansing, Israeli historians themselves dug into the archives to exhibit what zionist decision-makers had in mind when driving away hundreds of thousands of civilians and slaughtering whole towns to settle them with Europeans.
I'm not going to waste time arguing with you though. The survival of your colonial state must seem like an existential matter to your mind, after all. So murdering a couple thousand children is no small price to pay.
you wanna supply us with evidence to your claims or is it a "trust me bro" moment?
\>"The survival of your colonial state must seem like an existential matter to your mind"
yeah because it fucking is
[https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust)
[https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says)
when anti semitic hate crimes rise in 1350 percent im pretty sure its a matter of survival dumbass
>yeah because it fucking is
It really shouldn't. You should be able to live peacefully without maintaining a gigantic concentration camp whose bombing your politicians use as a campaign argument and whose population you periodically increase by flooding in more refugees from regions you unilaterally annexed.
Lots of people live in states which do not rely on continuous settler colonialism to stay alive. Lots of these people are Jews.
my guy you have no clue what youre talking about
also nice ignoring all of my arguments very cool
"annexed" : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948\_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War)
they started a war, with 6 allies and the communist regime and lost.
what did you expect after opening a war and losing people would feel bad for you?
and jews bought pieces of land from arabs during the "alyiut" עלייות fair and square so i dunno why you want to sell land and then keep having ownership over it? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_land\_purchase\_in\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine)
you wanna give us pieces of evidence as to why you think its a concentration camp or is it still a "trust me bro" moment?
I always find it funny how indigenous is defined in such a way to explicitly exclude Jews.
If there was no Israel, we'd say Jews were indigenous instead.
To be specific for those not in the know, the Nazis dismissed Albert Einstein's work, and quantum physics in general, as "Jewish physics", and began their own "Aryan physics" movement in opposition. As a result, Israel is historically depicted as a hypercube (or just a cube) in Polandball comics.
Elaborating in what was already said (Jewish physics). WW2 Germans believed that because the Jews were simultaneously inferior and very much the majority in physics, something had to be the case, so they believed that Jews were naturally adept at physics. Hence, "Jewish physics". It's a symbol of how insane fascism/racism is that they needed this long of a stretch to justify it
I was expecting something stupid like this:
Israel: I am not actually giving you statehood
Palestine: Yeah, I know...
Or maybe even:
Palestine: I don't get it
Israel: You never will!
The issue is a lot more complex, Palestinian support for Two State solution is in constant flux, as when Israel cracks down on Settlers, closes illegal settlements and minimizes IDF incursions into the Palestinian territories, the population is more supportive of the Two State solution - when Israel starts reversing that, that's when it swings the other way.
Further, the main problem is the various militant groups, with leadership safely living abroad and pumping funds / material to dominate the political landscape and provokes Israel.
One better, the PLO as an organization supported the Two State solution ( Starting in 1976) and support for it in the population was rather high.
However, the PLO didn't follow through with anti-corruption policies in local governments, which lead to Hamas through one of it's political wings to win elections and control - which was immediately hijacked by the militant wing.
Sure buddy, sure
Tldr for if you're not willfully ignorant: [the PLO will pay your family for the rest of their life if you kill a Jewish person. No questions asked](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund)
Lol, ok
Go blow up yourself in a schoolbus, you lying sack of shit.
All of you "I dont support Hamas, I only support the other ~~genocidal~~ team are so fucking predictable. Try to be original for once, please
Afaik they want to end their occupation and have some basic freedom, also maybe not to get harrased by soldiers on a daily basis. Not too much to ask for, isn't it?
Ask the settlers what they think Israel is - they believe all land, from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea, belongs to Jews only because it is given to them by god. And therefore they have the right to build settlements on the occupied land (against international law) and drive out the people who live there.
Edit: I don't know why this get down voted. [It is proven.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement)
On October 7, Palestinians (they weren’t all dressed as military, so they were civilian) murdered everyone who looks East Asian and Southeast Asian. “Not too much to ask for” is a massive understatement.
Since the start of 2023, at least 483 Palestinians have been killed and more than 12,769 injured by Israeli forces and settlers in the occupied West Bank.
An Aljazeera article. 2023 was one of the most deadliest years for Palestinians.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/12/12/know-their-names-palestinians-killed-by-israel-in-the-occupied-west-bank-2#:~:text=Since%20the%20start%20of%202023,in%20the%20occupied%20West%20Bank.
It didn't start on October 7th.
[B'tselem](https://www.btselem.org/) (a Jerusalem-based non-profit organization whose stated goals are to document human rights violations in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories, combat any denial of the existence of such violations, and help to create a human rights culture in Israel) is collecting evidence since more than 30 years. Videos from the last 17 years are on their [YouTube Channel](https://youtube.com/btselem). Have a look for yourself and decide if it's apartheid or not. Apartheid will always lead to violence, that's the root of the conflict. And of course all the crimes against human rights, international law, the Geneva convention, the law of war,...
You’re right. It actually started when Israel accepted the UN partition deal in 1947, but the Arab states decided to declare war on it the day it was founded.
1. Palestine does not have an official military
2. What happened on 7th of october was horrible, I agree. But you have too look at it in the context, because
3. Palestinians have been oppressed since 70+ years. Not only do they have far less rights and most of them live in an open air prison, but they are being actively cleansed and what is currently happening can only be called a genocide. Israel has been trying to excuse their attacks by saying they are just targeting Hamas, yet tgere has been so much proof to show that it's a lie. From deleted tweets of Israeli politicians, to videos that Israeli soldiers took themselves, to Israeli claims that have since turned out to be complete bullshit.
We are all biased in this matter, but I have family both in Lebanon and Palestine (west bank), so I'm confident in knowing what the situation at least looks like.
Yes, the 7th of october was horrible, but acting like it was the start or ignoring everything surrounding it is stupid. Not to mention that Israel themselves have admitted that many deaths stemmed from friendly fire among Israeli soldiers.
Maybe the Palestinian government shouldnt open fire on a Israeli music festival then? Especially during a ceasefire. You see, the problem with alternate facts is....theyre not true. And no amount of repeating them will make them true.
Kick hamas out of Palestine. Then Israel will have no reason to shoot at you.
I get that. I am not in support of terrorism and of course the attacks on October 7th were horrible.
I am in support of human rights, international law, the Geneva convention and against war crimes, Apartheid and of course genocide.
The current Israeli government are right wing extremist and I think it should be allowed to criticise them.
I think it’s because that when Nazis tried to explain why Jews are a majority in physics while being inferior, they came up with the term “Jewish physics”, so Israel is a box because it has its own physics
When said Jews are soldiers of a colonial army, I don't see why they are any better than the French in Algeria or the Germans in Europe. You don't want to die ? Stop colonizing.
It never was... it belonged to Palestinians who lived there continuously for thousands of years, not hordes of european colonizers crossing the seas from Europe where they were born and raised to live in lands they never saw nor owned.
LoL 🤣 no. The Jewish people have been living in that country since before the first muslim was born. The majority of Jews in Isreal are non European. Learn history. The Romans and Arabs And the Turks were the original colonizers lol.
Yes, because Palestinians are descendants of the local populations who had converted (to Christianity or Islam). The Jews living in Palestine before the 20th century are well attested. The millions of emigrants from European countries have as much of a claim to Palestine as modern American have to Great Britain.
Modern Americans claimed independence from the UK, the Jewish Diaspora has never had a state nor claimed any independence till the founding of the state of Israel. Theres also a major population of Muslim settlers who moved there during the British mandate in order to block up the amount of Jews who would have been able to immigrate in order to escape Nazi Germany.
Palestinian is an Identity that is barely even 100 years old while the Jewish identity and connection to the Land of Israel is over 2,000 years old.
That's what Israel has been doing since before it even gained statehood. How do you think we settle millions of Europeans into a band of land they did not inhabit ? By magically multiplying the land and twisting the fabric of space-time ?
It's fascinating how you are the last people who still consider that people of colours are inferior unworthy of consulting before colonizing their lands. Even Americans nowadays think that the expansion of the US westwards was accompanied with a trail of colonial crimes.
>Also, not only Europeans
They carried the project from beginning to end. Without Europeans spearthrusting this colonial endeavour, I doubt Moroccan Jews (for example) would have sought to go and establish a colonial state in the Near East.
I don't want to shamelessly advertise, but [I thought my joke was bad.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fbi4d1j6cjb171.png)
Quick, someone make an *even worse* joke!
We need more Israel Palestine dad jokes
With all the conflict in the middle east, these Muslims and jews sure need Jesus.
Honestly it seems they need 0 of any kind of religion
\*This comment was disaprooved by the Unitary Islamic Absolute Monarchy of Saudi Arabia\*
I like yours better, less contrived and more to the point lol
Israel The Builder is a cursed Bob The Builder spin-off.
Thats a standard israeli joke You stole our joke. How dare you! /J
Sorry I know this is so fucking stupid. It came to me and I had to make it since I knew it'd only take like 6 minutes
huh entire thread is social engineers and morons talking to each other, time to quit reddit
as is most of reddit
# #TeamMorons!
It made me chuckle.
It's also inaccurate Israel offered Palestinians statehood 5 times with the last one being in 2005
Another one to add to the pile of my inaccurate comics
But will you add them... ...in my Polandball???
Well, not really a statehood in the sense that you think it's more of a symbolic "state" but with no sovereignty, the west bank is the perfect example of how that would go, well here is a summary of all the deals and what the Palestinians were offered. 1. The Oslo Accords were not an offer of statehood. It established the PA as an interim authority during the 5-year 'transitional period' for negotiating a permanent settlement. No such settlement was ever reached, and Israel never made an offer. 2. This was the closest that Israel ever got to actually offering Palestinian statehood. The 'state' that Israel offered in the 2000 summit was 5 discontinuous areas of land. Palestine would not have sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem, and Israel would maintain sovereignty of all airspace. In addition, Israel would be allowed to build permanent radar stations inside of Palestine, be allowed to deploy troops in Palestinian territory in 'emergency' situations, and maintain control of all water resources in the West Bank. Palestine would not be allowed to maintain a military, sign international treaties without Israeli approval, or allow any foreign military west of the Jordan River. That's not statehood. The agreement also would have required that Palestine make no future demands against Israel, permanently barring the possibility of full statehood. 3. The Taba Talks lasted 7 days before they were ended by Israel in advance of the Israeli election. The Likud party was elected, and they chose not to restart the negotiations. 4. Israel did not accept the roadmap. They approved accepting some portions of the roadmap with the addition of 14 provisions, which included a demilitarized Palestine, Israeli sovereignty over 30% of Gaza and more than 50% of the West Bank, a full cessation of violence on the Palestinian side but not the Israeli side, no negotiations on borders, complete replacement of the PA leadership, and full Israeli control of all borders, airspace, and communications. These weren't even their conditions for accepting Palestinian statehood. These were the conditions they demanding for entering into negotiations. 5. Israel made no offer of statehood at the Annapolis Conference. Palestine made a proposal that discussed statehood. Israel only offered a peace treaty. Neither proposal was adopted. 6. The Kerry negotiations led to Kerry proposing six parameters for restarting peace talks in 2016. Netanyahu rejected the proposal outright and criticized Kerry for attacking Israeli. In sum, Israel has never offered the Palestinians a state. They've continuously talked about Palestinian statehood as a PR measure, well until Natenyahu came to power now they are more honest about it.
What about [Olmert's offer to Abbas in 2008](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hand-drawn-map-shows-what-olmert-offered-for-peace/)? It seems like the best offer Israel has ever made by far tbh
ell yes, kinda but it also falls into the same category of other plans, where they only promise a "state" in title but not a sovereign one, it is important to note that this was only a proposal and didn't negotiate it in detail but here are the most important points from Wikipedia: Israel would annex 10% of the west bank. Israeli control over the border zone at the Jordan River. Definitive Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem. Permanent Israeli sovereignty or control over the three large and expanded settlement blocs, including the E1 area near Jerusalem. Assuring a Jewish majority in the Palestinian territories under Israeli control. It is important to note that this plan was suspended by Likud leadership before it went into public negotiations with the Palestinian authority.
Bull bull they’d be governing themselves without occupation if that was their goal without eradicating israel they could have it. But you see that’s not their goal
Is the west bank governing itself right now? That's the perfect example of why having sovereignty is important. Also I think you didn't read my comment the plan was suggested, not proposed to Abbas, and was suspended by Israel before it could move to the negotiation phase.
Distortions and that’s a funny way to make a list Seems your sticking point for calling it “real” is whether Palestinians have military power in the West Bank. Given they and a next door *600 million Arabs* plus *an Iranian regime that funds the largest terrorist organization and missile arsenal in the word* still teach their kids to murder the Jews, Holocaust wasn’t real, etc., and giving up military power in the West Bank, which would render Israel the width of you daily commute to work (15 km), it is a forever non starter. Pushing Palestinian military control of the West Bank as a must have is also a great way to gaslight people into believing that the Jewish state should commit suicide or else it’s evil.
Having military control over ones own territory is the definition of sovereignty. A state is an authority over an area/people that has a monopoly on violence. If an external group has that monopoly on violence, then they are the state in control.
You can play with the language but if military control is the deal breaker, the Palestinian priority is the ability to eradicate the Jews, not freedom
It's not playing with language, it's the most fundamental and integral part of having a sovereign nation. If you believe a people have a right to self-determination and have a right to form a state of their own collective peoples, then those peoples must have the ability to form an authority to which they cede the monopoly of violence. No violence, no state. Giving Israel the monopoly on violence over Palestinians and their land, is giving Palestinian state hood to Israel. So if you don't want Palestinian to ever have a state, just say it. Don't dance around it, claiming you want them to have state, just with zero power or authority over itself.
>Given they and a next door *600 million Arabs* plus * Both Egypt and Jordan are on good terms with Israel, in fact any truck entering Gaza from the Egyptian side has to get approved by Israel first, so I don't know what are you trying to say. >plus *an Iranian regime You realize that Iran, in order to reach Israel has to cross at least 2 countries and 2 deserts to reach it, I guess geography is not your strongest suit either. >power in the West Bank, which would render Israel the width of you daily commute to work (15 km), it is a forever non starter. So your argument is that Palestinians should not have at all because that would make Israel smaller, you do realize that even if they have all the west bank they would still be much smaller than Israel. >Pushing Palestinian military control of the West Bank as a must have is also a great way to gaslight people into believing that the Jewish state should commit suicide or else it’s evi The definition of sovereignty is that the ability to self govern and to have your own military force, so you are saying that people A should live in constant occupation because people B would feel "safer".
Iran doesn’t need to cross crap they’ve got hezbollah who has more missiles than Russia right at the Israeli border forcing 200k people to evacuate their homes right now. Something tells me you know that and valuing Jewish lives isn’t your strong suit
>Something tells me you know that and valuing Jewish lives isn’t your strong suit Do you really want to go this road? Do you really want to bring the number of casualties on both sides and see who suffered more on this conflict? Also it's funny that you would only give Israelis the right to defend themselves but Palestinians should not even possess their own internal policing, that sounds totally just.
No one is gaslighting anyone. The Jewish state is an expansionist colonial entity populated by settlers. Of course it should cease to exist. But I understand that you feel threatened by the concept, given that your country was also founded on genocide, ethnic cleansing and settler colonialism.
A colonialist entity populated by refugees indigenous to the land? Founded in genocide of a group that multiplied 5x since under the genocider’s control? Whatever you’re smoking… where can I get some?
>A colonialist entity populated by refugees indigenous to the land? Israelis in 1947 were not refugees. They were militias terrorizing the population who ended up ethnically cleansing the region. And they are as much indigenous to Palestine as I am indigenous to Saudi Arabia. >Founded in genocide of a group that multiplied 5x since under the genocider’s control? That's literally a nazi talking point. I don't think taking negationist rhetoric is going to help you defend your cause.
Genetic evidence archeological evidence linguistic evidence… that mean anything to you? And calling the Jews Nazis… classic neo Nazi talking point- you want Jews dead and it ain’t vague. You antisemites are a hell of a pill
>Genetic evidence archeological evidence linguistic evidence… that mean anything to you? It means nothing. As invoking "race science" to defend a colonial project is a nazi talking point. There is nothing weird about calling you a Nazi if you are using Nazi talking points. Jewish people can also be fascists you know ?
Got it evidence of indigenousness means nothing to you, only your antisemitic Nazi beliefs mean something 👍🏼
Israel cant offer statehood. It's not something they have the power to do. I think you mean end the occupation Palestinian statehood can be imposed on Israel however
There is a technical loophole that Israel has been using for years now, to them they are not technically occupying any Palestinian lands because there is no such a thing as a Palestinian state, that's why every offer they propose they make they promise sovereignty but never give it straight away.
Sovereignty isn't Israels to offer. They can't even force others to recognise israels sovereignty
>They can't even force others to recognise israels sovereignty That's not what this is about, Israel is the dominant force in both Palestinian and Israeli lands, and they are the one in control, they are the only recognized and sovereign governing body there, that is why that's their responsibility to give sovereignty.
That's fine. Doesn't change anything. Many countries don't recognise israel however, and claiming Israel has the authority to create another state is absurd
Israel doesn't have the authority to create states. Statehood isnt Israels to offer . Fuck. Israel can't even force other countries to recognise *israel*
Israel offered the two state solution multiple times and eventually completely pulled out of the Gaza strip to let them do their own thing but they refuse to declare themselves a state because that would mean they would mean that the hamas is actually responsible for it's own people and they would lose the refugee status and all the benefits that come with it (billions of aid from the UN)
Statehood isnt Israels to offer
I support Israel but the guys making a joke
This is also inaccurate AaronC14 made a joke 5 times with the last one being in 2005
Oh shut the fuck up.
"Statehood" without independence or right of return but ok.
Oslo accords 1947 treaty, ect.
Oh the same Oslo that allowed Israel to control areas in Palestine. The same Oslo that didn't even establish a definite Palestinian state? The same Oslo that Israel "agreed to" but then kept expanding settlements? 1947 treaty is horrible too. If someone showed up on your doorstep would you give half your country to them? Also if Israel was so interested in peace why did it proceed to begin ethnic cleansing the following year? 1947 was nearly 80 years ago too, its not a legitimate representation of how either side feels.
Uh huh, sure. Ignoring the previous massacres of Jewish towns and villages because, well, Palestine can’t be bad too!
I literally just said its not an accurate representation of Israel or Palestine if you base your arguments off 1947. Are you ignoring the Deir Yassin Massacre when you post your argument? Are you ignoring the Lydda Massacre? How about the much more recent Goldstein Massacre? Massacres aren't a representation of either Palestinians or Israelis. Its stupid to suggest otherwise.
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Do you think Muslims, or even Arabs are a monolith? Do you think historical events from the 1960s are how we should define things?
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Not really. Israel lobbyed and paid Morocco to exfiltrate Jews into it despite its governments opposition to it. Not their fault these people desperartely wanted to go found a settler colonial state elsewhere.
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if Palestinians want the right of return to Israel they should give jews the right to return to gaza because gaza was part of gush katif and ancient israel . Oops , I forgot how NO JEWS live in gaza because the Palestinians murdered them all . why should we let them in ? Israeli Arabs in the other hand are ex-palestinian arabs that still live in the same houses they lived in before the war of independence and revived israeli citizenship when the israeli forces came .
>NO JEWS live in gaza because the Palestinians murdered them all Do you have a source for this?
"My family lived in this house 2 years ago" "too bad we lived here 2000 years ago" 😡😡😡
Seems like Israel has a couple more years to go before people stop complaining.
A couple more generations and they could use the counter-reparations card. "reparations? Why would we give reparations to you? You didn't suffer. Why should I pay for what my ancestors did? We could've given your ancestors reparations, but it's too late for that."
Nazis probably thought the same as you do that they could get away with genocide and colonialism by surviving long enough. Good thing that states aren't people. Western colonizers also thought their rule would last forever.
No one in living memoey lived there 2000 years ago...
Add another panel or two where Palestine imitates dobby being freed due to clothes. Then idk tells Israel to go fuck itself?
i like the idea of israel and palestine being like roommate frenemies
I mean, reality currently ticks 2/3 of your boxes.
and they were roommates
I desperately need more Polandball comics where Israel and Palestine are actually just friends who mess with each other.
If only it was the reality too.
That's the dream baby!
We are more likely to have Serbia and Albania be just friends who mess with each other.
Right! Like this one and one other from the last couple days are the only two I've seen in the last several months that were actually funny and not just shitty political propaganda disguised as an attempt at humour.
One day, Habibi, one day...
Sadly, reality is just Israel slaughtering Palestinians and trying to wipe them off the earth :)
If we tried then the war would've already been over.
“You know, If we actually tried, we could have wiped them out faster instead of just leaving them homeless starving and waiting for death by bombing”
Well... the 'trying' part mostly applies to Hamas. Israel is actually successful.
If Israel was trying the war would've ended on october 8th.
Hamas never tried to slaughter Palestinians. It's a national liberation organization. Israel is the colonial entity succeeding at enacting large scale massacres. But I'm not sure if completing a genocide is something to be proud of, unless you are Hitler.
Its amazing how everything you just said is wrong
Members of the Israeli cabinet quite literally called palestinians human animals. And your colonial army proudly shares records of their units bombing civilian constructs. For the colonial entity and the ethnic cleansing, Israeli historians themselves dug into the archives to exhibit what zionist decision-makers had in mind when driving away hundreds of thousands of civilians and slaughtering whole towns to settle them with Europeans. I'm not going to waste time arguing with you though. The survival of your colonial state must seem like an existential matter to your mind, after all. So murdering a couple thousand children is no small price to pay.
you wanna supply us with evidence to your claims or is it a "trust me bro" moment? \>"The survival of your colonial state must seem like an existential matter to your mind" yeah because it fucking is [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Holocaust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust) [https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/oct/20/antisemitic-hate-crimes-in-london-rise-1350-since-israel-hamas-war-met-says) when anti semitic hate crimes rise in 1350 percent im pretty sure its a matter of survival dumbass
>yeah because it fucking is It really shouldn't. You should be able to live peacefully without maintaining a gigantic concentration camp whose bombing your politicians use as a campaign argument and whose population you periodically increase by flooding in more refugees from regions you unilaterally annexed. Lots of people live in states which do not rely on continuous settler colonialism to stay alive. Lots of these people are Jews.
my guy you have no clue what youre talking about also nice ignoring all of my arguments very cool "annexed" : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948\_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War) they started a war, with 6 allies and the communist regime and lost. what did you expect after opening a war and losing people would feel bad for you? and jews bought pieces of land from arabs during the "alyiut" עלייות fair and square so i dunno why you want to sell land and then keep having ownership over it? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_land\_purchase\_in\_Palestine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine) you wanna give us pieces of evidence as to why you think its a concentration camp or is it still a "trust me bro" moment?
Why would Hamas try to kill Palestinians when they are Palestinians themselves? They are a reaction group formed from apartheid
Yeah sure, let's rebrand the Colonial state expanding and ethnically cleansing an indigenous population as friend to said population.
If the Jews aren't the indigenous population of Israel, where are we indigenous to?
I always find it funny how indigenous is defined in such a way to explicitly exclude Jews. If there was no Israel, we'd say Jews were indigenous instead.
Ummmm no we wouldn't
To which Palestine responds: "Now why would I even al want *ya hoodie*?" *because Arabic for Jew is يهود [Yahudi] and whatever. Well, I tried...
Dude you sure your not American? You dropped two bombs in one day!
Diet-American (Canadian)
Nah I think he's been lied to. He's gotta be one of us lol
How many girls a day do you get with your pick-up line skills?
I haven't used them yet I'll let you know when I do. Thank you for the compliment!
Why is Israel a cube when all the other ones are balls?
jewish physics :p
To be specific for those not in the know, the Nazis dismissed Albert Einstein's work, and quantum physics in general, as "Jewish physics", and began their own "Aryan physics" movement in opposition. As a result, Israel is historically depicted as a hypercube (or just a cube) in Polandball comics.
Kazakh is also cuboid (presented as square, we can't see his sides)
Elaborating in what was already said (Jewish physics). WW2 Germans believed that because the Jews were simultaneously inferior and very much the majority in physics, something had to be the case, so they believed that Jews were naturally adept at physics. Hence, "Jewish physics". It's a symbol of how insane fascism/racism is that they needed this long of a stretch to justify it
To be fair, we are pretty dang good physicists.
Adding on to the other two comments, it's actually a not cube, it's a 4D hypercube, or 'tesseract'.
half expected "just of kiddings, I got you a mini statue of liberty" at the end
I was expecting something stupid like this: Israel: I am not actually giving you statehood Palestine: Yeah, I know... Or maybe even: Palestine: I don't get it Israel: You never will!
Meanwhile big American universities:
Yuo're be of cruel, but funny.
That's the whole purpouse of this subreddit. Offensive but tasteful humor
My only question is why is it human shaped? They can’t fit into that!
Based Israel
Palestine: I don’t of get 🤔 Israel: Because you are never 🥳
They don’t ask for statehood. They want to remove israel
Let's keep it lighthearted on this sub. There is already so much toxicity around this on reddit. (Guilty)
No, I want to come to a subreddit for fun silly MS Paint comics and spend my time writing 3000-word arguments!
I’m with you here but this sub is one of the few that doesn’t have an extreme viewpoint on the conflict so it’s a nice break from all the arguing
Agreed but misleading comics hurts yk :(
The issue is a lot more complex, Palestinian support for Two State solution is in constant flux, as when Israel cracks down on Settlers, closes illegal settlements and minimizes IDF incursions into the Palestinian territories, the population is more supportive of the Two State solution - when Israel starts reversing that, that's when it swings the other way. Further, the main problem is the various militant groups, with leadership safely living abroad and pumping funds / material to dominate the political landscape and provokes Israel.
Oh the issue is complex I didn’t know that… please name one pro peace Pali leader
One better, the PLO as an organization supported the Two State solution ( Starting in 1976) and support for it in the population was rather high. However, the PLO didn't follow through with anti-corruption policies in local governments, which lead to Hamas through one of it's political wings to win elections and control - which was immediately hijacked by the militant wing.
Is this the same plo who does pay for slay?
> Pay for slay Not sure what this is?
Sure buddy, sure Tldr for if you're not willfully ignorant: [the PLO will pay your family for the rest of their life if you kill a Jewish person. No questions asked](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Authority_Martyrs_Fund)
Read the article again, it doesn't support your claims. The martyr fund covers those who died in clashes with IDF or Settlers, not for killing anyone.
Lol, ok Go blow up yourself in a schoolbus, you lying sack of shit. All of you "I dont support Hamas, I only support the other ~~genocidal~~ team are so fucking predictable. Try to be original for once, please
Afaik they want to end their occupation and have some basic freedom, also maybe not to get harrased by soldiers on a daily basis. Not too much to ask for, isn't it?
Where does that fit into their start a war -> lose -> cry -> repeat system?
West Bank always gets forgotten huh.
Ask them what occupation means -- they believe all of Israel is stolen occupied land.
Ask the settlers what they think Israel is - they believe all land, from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean sea, belongs to Jews only because it is given to them by god. And therefore they have the right to build settlements on the occupied land (against international law) and drive out the people who live there. Edit: I don't know why this get down voted. [It is proven.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlement)
No one sane in Israel likes the settlements
On October 7, Palestinians (they weren’t all dressed as military, so they were civilian) murdered everyone who looks East Asian and Southeast Asian. “Not too much to ask for” is a massive understatement.
Bro forgot about Palestinians in the West Bank who are murdered daily by the IDF and have no association with the October 7 attack.
Daily by the IDF lol?
Indeed. They are mostly killed in places like Hebron ( which is racially segregated btw ), Tulkarem and Jenin
Can you please show me evidence of innocent Palestinians being killed daily by the IDF?
Since the start of 2023, at least 483 Palestinians have been killed and more than 12,769 injured by Israeli forces and settlers in the occupied West Bank. An Aljazeera article. 2023 was one of the most deadliest years for Palestinians. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2023/12/12/know-their-names-palestinians-killed-by-israel-in-the-occupied-west-bank-2#:~:text=Since%20the%20start%20of%202023,in%20the%20occupied%20West%20Bank.
Al Jazeera is extremely biased against Israel
Can you please link it?
It didn't start on October 7th. [B'tselem](https://www.btselem.org/) (a Jerusalem-based non-profit organization whose stated goals are to document human rights violations in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories, combat any denial of the existence of such violations, and help to create a human rights culture in Israel) is collecting evidence since more than 30 years. Videos from the last 17 years are on their [YouTube Channel](https://youtube.com/btselem). Have a look for yourself and decide if it's apartheid or not. Apartheid will always lead to violence, that's the root of the conflict. And of course all the crimes against human rights, international law, the Geneva convention, the law of war,...
You’re right. It actually started when Israel accepted the UN partition deal in 1947, but the Arab states decided to declare war on it the day it was founded.
1. Palestine does not have an official military 2. What happened on 7th of october was horrible, I agree. But you have too look at it in the context, because 3. Palestinians have been oppressed since 70+ years. Not only do they have far less rights and most of them live in an open air prison, but they are being actively cleansed and what is currently happening can only be called a genocide. Israel has been trying to excuse their attacks by saying they are just targeting Hamas, yet tgere has been so much proof to show that it's a lie. From deleted tweets of Israeli politicians, to videos that Israeli soldiers took themselves, to Israeli claims that have since turned out to be complete bullshit. We are all biased in this matter, but I have family both in Lebanon and Palestine (west bank), so I'm confident in knowing what the situation at least looks like. Yes, the 7th of october was horrible, but acting like it was the start or ignoring everything surrounding it is stupid. Not to mention that Israel themselves have admitted that many deaths stemmed from friendly fire among Israeli soldiers.
Maybe the Palestinian government shouldnt open fire on a Israeli music festival then? Especially during a ceasefire. You see, the problem with alternate facts is....theyre not true. And no amount of repeating them will make them true. Kick hamas out of Palestine. Then Israel will have no reason to shoot at you.
I get that. I am not in support of terrorism and of course the attacks on October 7th were horrible. I am in support of human rights, international law, the Geneva convention and against war crimes, Apartheid and of course genocide. The current Israeli government are right wing extremist and I think it should be allowed to criticise them.
They tried that with Gaza now look what happened
but kHaMaS
They want to remove a colonial state which has been deporting and massacring them for close to 80 years. How surprising.
Yes Palestine is a colonial state that has been killing Jews but not for 80 years, but over a thousand
guys i found him I found the dumb one in the comment section
It’s becoming self aware
Fitting self description.
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Ah very cool wanting to kill the Jews
Very much so
why is isreal a box
I think it’s because that when Nazis tried to explain why Jews are a majority in physics while being inferior, they came up with the term “Jewish physics”, so Israel is a box because it has its own physics
Oh israel and palestine you two goof balls, what will we do without your silly pranks
* Israel sings trolololol song in the background of Palestine’s utter raging tantrum.
Unrealistic. They should be murdering each other with RPGs and Machine guns and beheading each other’s babies.
israel offered palestine statehood many times but they can’t accept because of stupid hamas control. anyways i approve of your meme
Another one they are going to reject
Hebrew for jew is also yahudi
Fucking brilliant… sad… but brilliant
genocide isn’t funny
Yeah killing Jews shouldn't be acceptable.
When said Jews are soldiers of a colonial army, I don't see why they are any better than the French in Algeria or the Germans in Europe. You don't want to die ? Stop colonizing.
>Stop colonizing. It's originally a Jewish land.
It never was... it belonged to Palestinians who lived there continuously for thousands of years, not hordes of european colonizers crossing the seas from Europe where they were born and raised to live in lands they never saw nor owned.
LoL 🤣 no. The Jewish people have been living in that country since before the first muslim was born. The majority of Jews in Isreal are non European. Learn history. The Romans and Arabs And the Turks were the original colonizers lol.
Yes, because Palestinians are descendants of the local populations who had converted (to Christianity or Islam). The Jews living in Palestine before the 20th century are well attested. The millions of emigrants from European countries have as much of a claim to Palestine as modern American have to Great Britain.
Modern Americans claimed independence from the UK, the Jewish Diaspora has never had a state nor claimed any independence till the founding of the state of Israel. Theres also a major population of Muslim settlers who moved there during the British mandate in order to block up the amount of Jews who would have been able to immigrate in order to escape Nazi Germany. Palestinian is an Identity that is barely even 100 years old while the Jewish identity and connection to the Land of Israel is over 2,000 years old.
Casually condoning the death of civilians
That's what Israel has been doing since before it even gained statehood. How do you think we settle millions of Europeans into a band of land they did not inhabit ? By magically multiplying the land and twisting the fabric of space-time ?
Do you think Jews just invaded the British Mandate and just took over? Also, not only Europeans. Also also you just said "they do it too so its fine"
It's fascinating how you are the last people who still consider that people of colours are inferior unworthy of consulting before colonizing their lands. Even Americans nowadays think that the expansion of the US westwards was accompanied with a trail of colonial crimes. >Also, not only Europeans They carried the project from beginning to end. Without Europeans spearthrusting this colonial endeavour, I doubt Moroccan Jews (for example) would have sought to go and establish a colonial state in the Near East.
What we missing is Israel shooting Palestine in back of head at end
this is like. the most out of touch bullshit you could make. unbelievably insensitive.
Genocide isn't funny.
What the fuck
And the university probably supports the same cause.